As a non christian, I am curious ...

An aborted foetus, does it go to

a/ God in heaven?

b/ semi punished in Purgatory

c/ or punished for it's sins for eternity in Hell.

d/ an aborted foetus is not human, so is trash.


advanced thanks for clearing this up for me.

Ratzinger murdered the 20 million babies in purgatory by decreeing it doesnt exist anymore.

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 15^th, 2013 at 11:12am:

Ratzinger murdered the 20 million babies in purgatory by decreeing it doesnt exist anymore. SOB

The mass murdering bugger. No wonder he got kicked out.

From memory, yes they do. At least as far as Catholics are concerned.

When you say Hell, do you mean the afterlife adopted from the Greeks (Hades), Sheol, the physical place of  burial under the Earth,  or Gehenna, the Bronze Age waste disposal site  in the Valley of Hinnon outside Jerusalem.  All three are translated as "Hell" in the Bible, depending on the translation. Luther's German translation and the KJV can be blamed for this.

I'd say that there is no consensus within Christianity as a whole, and the Catholic Church regard Hell as a state of absence from God rather than a place.

I'd say that Sheol is probably the final resting place, and the intermediate "purgatory" is SITA or Transwaste (take your pick)

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2013 at 1:32pm:

From memory, yes they do. At least as far as Catholics are concerned.

No. Not any more. Ratzinger decreed no more purgatory.

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 5:56am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 15th, 2013 at 1:32pm: From memory, yes they do. At least as far as Catholics are concerned. No. Not any more. Ratzinger decreed no more purgatory. SOB

Spot, 'innocents' didn't go to purgatory in the first place.
Purgatory is supposedly the place for those people who died 'in God's Grace' but with a few minor sins to atone for. Sort of like weekend detention, not bad enough to do hard time (Hell) but too good to go free ( Heaven).
Unborn, or new born children haven't committed any sins, so they get to go straight to Heaven.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 8:41am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 5:56am: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 15th, 2013 at 1:32pm: From memory, yes they do. At least as far as Catholics are concerned. No. Not any more. Ratzinger decreed no more purgatory. SOB Spot, 'innocents' didn't go to purgatory in the first place. Purgatory is supposedly the place for those people who died 'in God's Grace' but with a few minor sins to atone for. Sort of like weekend detention, not bad enough to do hard time (Hell) but too good to go free ( Heaven). Unborn, or new born children haven't committed any sins, so they get to go straight to Heaven.

How about a RU-486 aborted first day first stage trimester foetus , would this entity go to heaven?

____ wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 9:20am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 8:41am: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 5:56am: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 15th, 2013 at 1:32pm: From memory, yes they do. At least as far as Catholics are concerned. No. Not any more. Ratzinger decreed no more purgatory. SOB Spot, 'innocents' didn't go to purgatory in the first place. Purgatory is supposedly the place for those people who died 'in God's Grace' but with a few minor sins to atone for. Sort of like weekend detention, not bad enough to do hard time (Hell) but too good to go free ( Heaven). Unborn, or new born children haven't committed any sins, so they get to go straight to Heaven. How about a RU-486 aborted first day first stage trimester foetus , would this entity go to heaven?

I suppose so (depending on when a foetus 'becomes' a person). It's about crimes or sins committed, so 'victims' get to go, 'perpetrators' get punished.

Hell no! >:(

There are two major forms of IMMORTALITY that are given to Humankind.

Women give us IMMORTALITY through procreation of children - so that we may live 'forever' through them, be it en-mass (quantity) in the name of Youth or longevity (quality) in the name of Elder.
Men give us IMMORTALITY through inventions, innovations, building Pyramids as Tombstones to be remembered to tiny headstones with a TV on em so for the cost of a coin, one can watch a dvd of that person's life in retro. Things to accompany the growth of humanity, both in quantity and quality.

The USA by culture has a nice compliment to 'Heaven' in that it seems to be the one that is furthering our world through Aviation, Astronomy and going up into Space in everything associated with the Religious 'Heaven'.
...unlike us Australians who were caste down (from England) and sent 'down under' to become world leaders in Water technology and to keep the 'toilet' clean. :P


So - in reference to the Foetus.
Maybe to 'splodge' heaven via a bucket list wish.
::)

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 10:44am:

Hell no! >:( There are two major forms of IMMORTALITY that are given to Humankind. Women give us IMMORTALITY through procreation of children - so that we may live 'forever' through them, be it en-mass (quantity) in the name of Youth or longevity (quality) in the name of Elder. Men give us IMMORTALITY through inventions, innovations, building Pyramids as Tombstones to be remembered to tiny headstones with a TV on em so for the cost of a coin, one can watch a dvd of that person's life in retro. Things to accompany the growth of humanity, both in quantity and quality. The USA by culture has a nice compliment to 'Heaven' in that it seems to be the one that is furthering our world through Aviation, Astronomy and going up into Space in everything associated with the Religious 'Heaven'. ...unlike us Australians who were caste down (from England) and sent 'down under' to become world leaders in Water technology and to keep the 'toilet' clean. :P So - in reference to the Foetus. Maybe to 'splodge' heaven via a bucket list wish. ::)

Jasign, the question is about Christian beliefs, and is correct under my memories of those beliefs

Christianity is a Middle-Eastern ('birthplace' of Reading/Writing aka Religion and Fashion aka Spirituality) EXPRESSION or THEME of Europe which was culturally more Medical and Food Industry orientated ...hence the emphasis in Christianity upon such things as 'Healing & Last Supper', etc.
Medicine is leading European nations to prosperity ...where as Politics, Military - and Religion leads European nations to ruin  ;)

Christianity, along with Mohomedism (a Religion themed upon Africa by a race more related to Asians)
and Judaism (a Religion themed upon Asia by a race more related to Africans)
...are three Monotheisms (one empowers an individual, another empowers a mass of people and the other exploits both like a middle-man ;))

So the concept of 'Heaven' via Christianity is DEFAULT
...for really such a description is expressed via Religion as 'going up into the sky' (of which North Americans and birds seem to exhibit the best). Nothing more than that sorry to say.
People don't express 11km down into the Abyss of the Ocean depths as 'Heaven' :P

So any concept of a Feotus going to 'heaven' is just pure 'ridiculous'.
Its just a peice of undeveloped tissue that has not reached 'maturity' for a birth due to its own 'defects' or 'faults' via the mother, let alone be moulded and shaped by the Father and the World 'after' it has been born.
What people mourn or think of, in regards to the Bucket Splodge is 'the ideal or potential' for it to have 'gone to heaven' ;) ;) ;)

It's like thinking every sperm that 'didn't make it' to the egg and won through in the end ...should be saved! ::) and deserves life!

Throwing one's guilt of 'failure' upon a foetus is pathetic.
Abortions are not just privy to Religion.
Its more a Medical Reason.
Just like for 'medical' reasons I say to Gays. What you are doing is 'un-hygenic' and damages 'that' part of your body. What you are doing is wrong and not good for you. Its ok. Everyone makes mistakes. You can love your fellow 'mate', without sexually abusing his body.

People get executed for doing something bad, evil, etc. They are 'flawed'. Sometimes, incarcerated and forgotten in isolation until they wither, fade and go away. Sometimes - people get aborted.

Christianity may not be able to put the paperwork on Abortion. But maybe the 'new' Religions themed from the New Worlds (like Mormonism for North America for starters) may be able to do so ;)

____ wrote on Jun 15^th, 2013 at 11:08am:

As a non christian, I am curious ... An aborted foetus, does it go to a/ God in heaven? b/ semi punished in Purgatory c/ or punished for it's sins for eternity in Hell. d/ an aborted foetus is not human, so is trash. advanced thanks for clearing this up for me.

I'ld pick - a/ God in heaven?

It has not sinned.

...I'll pick D/- TRASH (etc)

Do animals go to Heaven?
Considering how they get treated and 'aborted' from this world... :-?
Maybe a few blessings of Halal or Psalms will make things 'all better' before we slice and dice their meat that tastes just as nice now. ::)

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 4:39pm:

...I'll pick D/- TRASH (etc) Do animals go to Heaven? Considering how they get treated and 'aborted' from this world... :-? Maybe a few blessings of Halal or Psalms will make things 'all better' before we slice and dice their meat that tastes just as nice now. ::)

Perhaps they do..
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096787/

When the irony Gizmo, of nations where many children are born (India, China, West Africa, Mexico, etc) =  'life' is cheap and 'toilet paper' is expensive. in the way they are treated and provided for...

...Heaven must be the rubbish dump!

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 5:02pm:

When the irony Gizmo, of nations where many children are born (India, China, West Africa, Mexico, etc) =  'life' is cheap and 'toilet paper' is expensive. in the way they are treated and provided for... ...Heaven must be the rubbish dump!

Well, according to Christian mythos, Heaven (if it exists) is the exact opposite, many Christians believe that the more you suffer in this life, the better the next will be.

Good for them then.

Be a good Christian Gizmo and give me $100 will you.
I'll pay you back double in the next life ;)


...though to give Christianity or any form of 'reincarnation' a sense of credibility.
Its possible that the 'next life' is your children or inventions that are inspired by your original invention.
So suffer now for that which follows.

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 5:35pm:

Good for them then. Be a good Christian Gizmo and give me $100 will you. I'll pay you back double in the next life ;) ...though to give Christianity or any form of 'reincarnation' a sense of credibility. Its possible that the 'next life' is your children or inventions that are inspired by your original invention. So suffer now for that which follows.

Nice try, but I'm NOT a Christian, I just know a lot about the doctrine

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 8:41am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 5:56am: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 15th, 2013 at 1:32pm: From memory, yes they do. At least as far as Catholics are concerned. No. Not any more. Ratzinger decreed no more purgatory. SOB Spot, 'innocents' didn't go to purgatory in the first place. Purgatory is supposedly the place for those people who died 'in God's Grace' but with a few minor sins to atone for. Sort of like weekend detention, not bad enough to do hard time (Hell) but too good to go free ( Heaven). Unborn, or new born children haven't committed any sins, so they get to go straight to Heaven.

Unborn, or new born children do not get to go straight to Heaven, because they are stained by Original Sin.  Until they are baptised - they are not free from sin.  So - no heaven for them.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 8:41am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 5:56am: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 15th, 2013 at 1:32pm: From memory, yes they do. At least as far as Catholics are concerned. No. Not any more. Ratzinger decreed no more purgatory. SOB Spot, 'innocents' didn't go to purgatory in the first place. Purgatory is supposedly the place for those people who died 'in God's Grace' but with a few minor sins to atone for. Sort of like weekend detention, not bad enough to do hard time (Hell) but too good to go free ( Heaven). Unborn, or new born children haven't committed any sins, so they get to go straight to Heaven.

but we aren't born without sin, according to the bible we are born bearing the original sin of Adam. Thats why we have christenings, to be purged of the sins. Does the same apply to a foetus?

John Smith wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 6:27pm:

but we aren't born without sin, according to the bible we are born bearing the original sin of Adam. Thats why we have christenings, to be purged of the sins. Does the same apply to a foetus?

I think Adam was in the clear.  It was Eve's sin.

And those sheila's have been wrecking the joint ever since.

rabbitoh07 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 7:09pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 6:27pm: but we aren't born without sin, according to the bible we are born bearing the original sin of Adam. Thats why we have christenings, to be purged of the sins. Does the same apply to a foetus? I think Adam was in the clear.  It was Eve's sin. And those sheila's have been wrecking the joint ever since.

ok then, eve's sin ... we certainly aren't (according to the bible)  born innocent

rabbitoh07 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 6:23pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 8:41am: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 5:56am: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 15th, 2013 at 1:32pm: From memory, yes they do. At least as far as Catholics are concerned. No. Not any more. Ratzinger decreed no more purgatory. SOB Spot, 'innocents' didn't go to purgatory in the first place. Purgatory is supposedly the place for those people who died 'in God's Grace' but with a few minor sins to atone for. Sort of like weekend detention, not bad enough to do hard time (Hell) but too good to go free ( Heaven). Unborn, or new born children haven't committed any sins, so they get to go straight to Heaven. Unborn, or new born children do not get to go straight to Heaven, because they are stained by Original Sin.  Until they are baptised - they are not free from sin.  So - no heaven for them.

Unborn do, because we are 'born in sin'...not born, no sin.

As for newborns...Sin requires a conscious decision to break God's 'Laws' or rules. Newborn babies, or indeed toddlers can't do that, any more than an animal can.

A foetus isn't born so how can it be born with "original sin".

Sin is actually derived from the words Ab-Sin Nanna or Sin which is what the inventors upon the Temple of Ur called that which is known as the Moon these days.
Hence: Sin-Ur (Sinner).
It was Sin (the moon) that 'inspired' men to create Writing (Cuniform) in the realm of ancient Sumer(ia) and thus 'memory' became immortal in the eyes of...
...and thus proof of such things as ownership, lineage, etc became a sense of 'Power' and 'Breeding Rights' over others that was now set in stone. The conquering Babylonians corrupted Writing into such and dispensed with its more authentic beginnings of all things Farming, Astronomy and seasonal interpretations.
Eventually Religion came into being and thus 'Yalweh, God, Allah, etc' was created in the eyes of Man.

From the Middle-East Religion went on to describe the 3 Old Worlds that surrounded it: Europe (via Christianity) to the left of it, Asia (via Judaism) to the right of it and Africa (via Mohommedism) 'below' it.
There is no Religious expression of the Middle-East itself. But I guess thats where North America, South America and Australia come into it  ;) ...excluding that region in 'their' midst known as Oceania which promotes Science, Entertainment, Music, Tourism and all things wearing a black skivy.  ;D

So.
For a Feotus to be with or without Sin?
- just plain silly really :D

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 7:41pm:

Sin requires a conscious decision to break God's 'Laws' or rules. Newborn babies, or indeed toddlers can't do that, any more than an animal can

not according to the catholic bible. We are all born with 'original sin,'  consciousness doesn't come into it,

White people moved into North America and ate from the tree of Knowledge and came to know good and evil.

Will they eat from the Tree of Life (as well) that is Australia?
And come to live forever like us (Gods)?

;D ;D

Gods who pay three times as much for their groceries as they do in Europe. ;)

John Smith wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 8:13pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 7:41pm: Sin requires a conscious decision to break God's 'Laws' or rules. Newborn babies, or indeed toddlers can't do that, any more than an animal can not according to the catholic bible. We are all born with 'original sin,'  consciousness doesn't come into it,

Yes it does. 'Original Sin' was the reason Jesus died for us. That forgives the 'original sin'.

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 8:21pm:

White people moved into North America and ate from the tree of Knowledge and came to know good and evil. Will they eat from the Tree of Life (as well) that is Australia? And come to live forever like us (Gods)? ;D ;D

What are you talking about??...The 'eating from the tree of knowledge' thing happened long before the Jewish religion started, and THAT was 5773 years ago. Where as white people arrived in North America in some 4700 years later (the vikings somewhere around 1000AD...1013 years ago)

Please stop trying to say that Christianity was created by the Americans....it was the other way around. Read some history books, it'll open your eyes to lots of things.



Oh and p.s...It makes you look like an idiot.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 8:49pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 8:13pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 7:41pm: Sin requires a conscious decision to break God's 'Laws' or rules. Newborn babies, or indeed toddlers can't do that, any more than an animal can not according to the catholic bible. We are all born with 'original sin,'  consciousness doesn't come into it, Yes it does. 'Original Sin' was the reason Jesus died for us. That forgives the 'original sin'.

Hmmm...I am no position to argue.  I am only relying on 12 years of Catholic indoctrination - a long time ago - (and they never even sucked my cock once!?!?!  What was wrong with me?!?!) - but I distinctly remember being told we were all born in sin.  I may be wrong.

And I reckon that still applies to a foetus.  Or embryo or zygote or whatever.  Don't think the actual ride down the vaginal canal comes into it.  Eve made you a sinner from the point of fertilisation.  That is why Priests must shun women, and take whatever else is available.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 8:49pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 8:13pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 7:41pm: Sin requires a conscious decision to break God's 'Laws' or rules. Newborn babies, or indeed toddlers can't do that, any more than an animal can not according to the catholic bible. We are all born with 'original sin,'  consciousness doesn't come into it, Yes it does. 'Original Sin' was the reason Jesus died for us. That forgives the 'original sin'.

no, Jesus died for all mans other sins at the time, namely the belief in other gods etc .... we are born with the burden of original sin


Adam by his fault transmitted to us not only death but also sin,
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm

I am catholic (non practicing) with devoutly catholic Italian parents, and I went to a catholic school and I was even an alter boy when i was young and stupid  (and like Rabbitoh07, they never sucked my cock once either ... I guess they didn't like me either  )

Sorry for having an 'overview' of Religion as a Global whole and of Religion and its place in a world that also exists with other things other than Religion to keep it turning. Sorry for seeing Religion for what it 'just is' - both in the past ...and future.

Sorry for putting all this in 'writing' right before your sorry-asss eyes :P

John Smith wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 9:17pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 8:49pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 8:13pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 7:41pm: Sin requires a conscious decision to break God's 'Laws' or rules. Newborn babies, or indeed toddlers can't do that, any more than an animal can not according to the catholic bible. We are all born with 'original sin,'  consciousness doesn't come into it, Yes it does. 'Original Sin' was the reason Jesus died for us. That forgives the 'original sin'. no, Jesus died for all mans other sins at the time, namely the belief in other gods etc .... we are born with the burden of original sin Adam by his fault transmitted to us not only death but also sin, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm I am catholic (non practicing) with devoutly catholic Italian parents, and I went to a catholic school and I was even an alter boy when i was young and stupid  (and like Rabbitoh07, they never sucked my cock once either ... I guess they didn't like me either  )

With all respect to you and Rabbit, and to your parents, I was also raised Catholic (also now lapsed) and I was taught that abortion was murder, and murder victims catch the express bus to Heaven.

And the New Advent site is an online version of the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia, which hasn't been updated since it's original printing, 1907-1912

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 10:20pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 9:17pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 8:49pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 8:13pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 7:41pm: Sin requires a conscious decision to break God's 'Laws' or rules. Newborn babies, or indeed toddlers can't do that, any more than an animal can not according to the catholic bible. We are all born with 'original sin,'  consciousness doesn't come into it, Yes it does. 'Original Sin' was the reason Jesus died for us. That forgives the 'original sin'. no, Jesus died for all mans other sins at the time, namely the belief in other gods etc .... we are born with the burden of original sin Adam by his fault transmitted to us not only death but also sin, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm I am catholic (non practicing) with devoutly catholic Italian parents, and I went to a catholic school and I was even an alter boy when i was young and stupid  (and like Rabbitoh07, they never sucked my cock once either ... I guess they didn't like me either  ) With all respect to you and Rabbit, and to your parents, I was also raised Catholic (also now lapsed) and I was taught that abortion was murder, and murder victims catch the express bus to Heaven.

So Osama bin Laden is kicking back in heaven now with Carl Williams?

That hardly seems fair.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 10:20pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 9:17pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 8:49pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 8:13pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 7:41pm: Sin requires a conscious decision to break God's 'Laws' or rules. Newborn babies, or indeed toddlers can't do that, any more than an animal can not according to the catholic bible. We are all born with 'original sin,'  consciousness doesn't come into it, Yes it does. 'Original Sin' was the reason Jesus died for us. That forgives the 'original sin'. no, Jesus died for all mans other sins at the time, namely the belief in other gods etc .... we are born with the burden of original sin Adam by his fault transmitted to us not only death but also sin, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm I am catholic (non practicing) with devoutly catholic Italian parents, and I went to a catholic school and I was even an alter boy when i was young and stupid  (and like Rabbitoh07, they never sucked my cock once either ... I guess they didn't like me either  ) With all respect to you and Rabbit, and to your parents, I was also raised Catholic (also now lapsed) and I was taught that abortion was murder, and murder victims catch the express bus to Heaven. And the New Advent site is an online version of the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia, which hasn't been updated since it's original printing, 1907-1912

I did originally say that I wasn't sure how it applied to an unborn foetus

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 9:04pm:

Please stop trying to say that Christianity was created by the Americans....it was the other way around. Read some history books, it'll open your eyes to lots of things. Oh and p.s...It makes you look like an idiot.

That is what the mormons believe. Are you disrespecting the mormons?

SOB