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http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl Member Run Boards >> Islam >> Where the Israeil Jews really came from http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1372552172 Message started by freediver on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:29am

Title: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by freediver on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:29am

freediver wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 9:45am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 11:46pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:14pm:

Actually the Arab states pretty much created Israel (and Mossad) by forcing Jews to flee to Israel at an even greater pace than Europe did

Greater pace? I don't think so. The jewish population had its most dramatic rise between about the first world war and 1947
- emigration from arab countries didn't start until 1948 - and was relatively slow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

From the onset of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War until the early 1970s, 800,000–1,000,000 Jews left, fled, or were expelled from their homes in Arab countries; 260,000 of them reached Israel between 1948 and 1951 and amounted for 56% of the total immigration to the newly founded State of Israel.[2] 600,000 Jews from Arab and Muslim countries had reached Israel by 1972.[3][4][5] By the Yom Kippur War of 1973, most of the Jewish communities throughout the Arab World, as well as Pakistan and Afghanistan, were practically non-existent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#Aliyah_from_Arab_countries

Aliyah Bet: Illegal immigration (1933–1948)

during the 14 years of its operation, 110,000 Jews immigrated to Palestine

So tell us Gandalf, which one looks more significant to you? People (especially Muslims) like to associate Israel with European interference and the aftermath of the holocaust, yet it was Arabs themselves who contributed most to it. Apparently they mistook it for a concentration camp.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:28am:

freediver wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 9:45am:

during the 14 years of its operation, 110,000 Jews immigrated to Palestine

First of all, I wasn't talking about the 14 years, I was talking about the entire inter-war period - ~1918-1948. During that time the jewish population went from around 60k to over 600k

freediver wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 9:45am:

So tell us Gandalf, which one looks more significant to you? People (especially Muslims) like to associate Israel with European interference and the aftermath of the holocaust, yet it was Arabs themselves who contributed most to it.

What are you talking about? Israel was created in 1948 - the jewish exodus from the arab world didn't even start until after that. Of course the creation of Israel was only possible by the mass exodus of jews from Europe - that enabled them to become a majority of the population in certain key centres.

freediver wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 9:45am:

Apparently they mistook it for a concentration camp.

It is trully pathetic when people attempt to draw some sort of moral equivalence between the muslim and European treatment of jews. Perhaps you can enlighten me and show me the muslim gas chambers and the 4+ million dead jews at the hands of the muslims?

Gandalf, where did you get the 60-600k figures from?

Muhammed himself was keen on ethnic cleansing, particularly when it came to Jews. The Arabs achieved what centuries of European Jew-haters could not. You can only make them look good by comparing them to Hitler. By the Yom Kippur War of 1973, most of the Jewish communities throughout the Arab World, as well as Pakistan and Afghanistan, were practically non-existent.

The Arabs turned the whole area from a Jewish "majority of the population in certain key centres" into a Jewish ghetto, the sqealed like pigs when instead of letting the Palestinians wipe them out, the Jews turned it into one of the strongest, wealthiest and most socially progressive nations in the area. When hundreds of thousands of Arab Jews ended up living in tents in the desert, their fellow Jews did not turn their back, and they did not throw rocks at the nearest Arabs they could find. And don't kid yourself that the Arabs would have stopped there. Incompetence is not the same thing as benign intent. The entire Arab world were collectively on their way to outdoing Hitler when they were undone by a tiny new nation. This was not one rogue country with an evil leader that was opposed by every other Arab country. This was every single one of them. And they are still agitating to finish the job.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 12:17pm

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:29am:

Gandalf, where did you get the 60-600k figures from?

Several places, eg:

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000636

The same figures are verified by several other sources.

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:29am:

Muhammed himself was keen on ethnic cleansing, particularly when it came to Jews. The Arabs achieved what centuries of European Jew-haters could not. You can only make them look good by comparing them to Hitler.

No, the muslim treatment of jews looks very good compared to christians throughout history. When the muslim armies conquered Jerusalem in the 7th century, jews were allowed back to their holy place for the first time in centuries. Religious freedom was restored. When the christians conquered it back in 1096, jews were slaughtered and expelled. When Saladin retook the city in 1187, he entered the temple mount and found it covered in a pile of horse manure. Apparently, for the christian rulers it wasn't merely enough to expel the jews, they had to continue to defile their most holy place. Saladin ordered it cleaned up and yet again invited the jews back to worship freely there.

During the golden age jewish scholars flourished under islamic rule, and made huge contributions to the flourishing of science and philosophy. Yes, there was the occasional pogrom and massacre, but these seem to be the exception not the rule - and it was almost certainly on a much lesser scale to the constant persecution and slaughter of jews in the christian world during the same time. In the 15th century when the catholics retook Spain, the jews were once again targeted and expelled. Where did the muslims flee to? Many went to the muslim world of course.

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:29am:

The Arabs turned the whole area from a Jewish "majority of the population in certain key centres" into a Jewish ghetto, the sqealed like pigs when instead of letting the Palestinians wipe them out, the Jews turned it into one of the strongest, wealthiest and most socially progressive nations in the area.. blah blah blah....

Wow FD, that would have to be the most racist, ignorant and baseless rant from you yet.

I suggest you look at some objective history, rather than be a mindless drone of Israeli propaganda. As early as 1920 the British foreign office observed that the zionists were creating serious political tensions between the jews and the arabs, by openly boasting that they would overrun the entire area of Palestine - with no consideration to the native arabs living there. Zionist leaders such as Ben-Gurion (as quoted previously) were making it clear that any partition plan to grant both the jews and arabs their own state, was merely a stepping stone towards gaining control of the entire area - and once again to hell with the arab natives. From around 1946-47, the jewish terrorist groups Irgun and the Stern Gang were conducting a systematic terror campaign in key arab urban centres to clear the way for zionist expansion. This was well before the arab nations intervened. When the British rulers attempted to clamp down on this terror campaign, the terrorism was redirected to the British - most famously with the King David Hotel bombing - killing 91 civilians - to date the largest single terrorist attack in the entire history of the conflict. When war broke out in 1948, there is little historical doubt that the Israelis used it as an opportunity to systematically drive out (ethnically cleanse) hundreds of thousands of arab civilians.

Yes, there has been extremism and atrocities by both sides, but once again, as you *ALWAYS* do - you paint this sort of conflict involving muslims as a simple case of muslims only behaving badly. This misses the entire context of zionist provocation, and atrocities meted out against arab civilians in the name of an imperialist agenda.

But lets not forget the premise of this thread: the quote you posted in the OP stems from a bogus claim of yours that the creation of Israel was, more than anything else, the result of the expelling of jews from the arab world. Whats really funny about this claim is that this expulsion didn't even start until Israel had already been created ;D ;D.

Its simply absurd to think that the massive transformation in demographics between the world wars wasn't the main facilitator for the creation of the jewish state - created entirely by jewish migration from Europe. Its just yet another pathetic and desperate attempt to pin what is unquestionably a European issue on to the muslims.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Avram Horowitz on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 2:05pm

My grandfather comes from Praha.
He is put by the Nazis into Majdanek camp in WW2 and then told he no longer is wanted by Czeska Republic.

He comes to Israel with Ben Gurion and is one of first Israelis.
This is source of great pride to our family.
I am born like my father in Haifa.

My mother is from New York City.

We Jews are from everywhere!!

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by freediver on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 4:26pm

Quote:

No, the muslim treatment of jews looks very good compared to christians throughout history.

Except that in response to the holocaust and the creation of Israel, the Arab countries, and a few other Muslim ones, expelled nearly all of their Jews, many of whom ended up in Israel. Once they had gotten rid of most of their Jews, they attacked Israel.

Quote:

Yes, there has been extremism and atrocities by both sides, but once again, as you *ALWAYS* do - you paint this sort of conflict involving muslims as a simple case of muslims only behaving badly.

I don't try to paint the fact that they expelled nearly all the Jews and lost war after war against Israel as proof that they were nice to Jews. If Hitler had lost his war after a few days the holocaust would have also been averted, but it would not mean that Hitler's intentions were benign, yet you expect us to believe this about the middle eastern Muslims.

Quote:

But lets not forget the premise of this thread: the quote you posted in the OP stems from a bogus claim of yours that the creation of Israel was, more than anything else, the result of the expelling of jews from the arab world.

The figures back that up. You described a total of 600 000 Jews over a period of more than thirty years (from all sources, including births within Israel and the ones who were already there) as being a "greater rate" than 600 000 Jews fleeing Arab countries from 48 to 72. And the Israel of today is not the Israel of 1948. For starters, it has been swamped with Jews fleeing Arab and Muslim countries who were trying to outcompete Hitler in Jew hating. There were vast tent cities of Jewish refugees, but you don't see Israel insisting that the Arab countries are wiped off the map as punishment.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 5:48pm

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 4:26pm:

Except that in response to the holocaust and the creation of Israel, the Arab countries, and a few other Muslim ones, expelled nearly all of their Jews

In response to the holocaust??

Are you mental? Can you kindly stop making sh!t up to endulge your prejudice?

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 4:26pm:

I don't try to paint the fact that they expelled nearly all the Jews and lost war after war against Israel as proof that they were nice to Jews.

Neither do I. However unlike you I don't attempt to link this hostility with an imaginary continuous and universal policy of jewish persecution by muslims - going back to the time of the prophet.

The hostility arabs had for jews has a context - it was the ethnic cleansing of arabs out of what became the state of Israel. As I keep repeating, terrorism and expulsion of Palestinians started before the arab nations got involved - a small point that is rather inconvenient to your simplistic meme.

Jewish communities in the arab world had been amongst the most stable and prosperous right up until the 1940s. And then suddenly out of the blue they found themselves the enemy. I wonder why?

Am I excusing the treatment of the jews at the hands of the arabs? No. But I am certainly not going to lie down and swallow the lie about it being nothing other than islamic-inspired anti-semitism. Thats dishonest, and its bigoted.

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 4:26pm:

Israel was created by European jews. Zionism was a concept conceived, promoted and put into practice by European jews like Theodore Hertzl. The creation of Israel was made possible by the campaign by European zionists, as well as the mass migration of European jews - who enabled the jewish proportion of the population to be large enough to be able to forge a state by 1948. Jews from arab lands didn't start to reach Israel in any significant numbers until after the state had been formed.

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 4:26pm:

For starters, it has been swamped with Jews fleeing Arab and Muslim countries who were trying to outcompete Hitler in Jew hating.

::)

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by freediver on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 6:04pm

Quote:

Are you mental? Can you kindly stop making sh!t up to endulge your prejudice?

Can you explain why else the Arab and nearby Muslim countries would create their own little progrom while the rest of the world was in revulsion of the consequences of antisemitism? It is like their response to the holocaust was the exact opposite of everyone else. They tried to create their own holocaust, and it was not out of concern for their fellow man that the failed.

Quote:

Neither do I. However unlike you I don't attempt to link this hostility with an imaginary continuous and universal policy of jewish persecution by muslims - going back to the time of the prophet.

Muhammed was fond of slaughtering Jews. And blaming them for it. Just like you, Abu, and most other Muslims.

Quote:

The hostility arabs had for jews has a context - it was the ethnic cleansing of arabs out of what became the state of Israel. As I keep repeating, terrorism and expulsion of Palestinians started before the arab nations got involved - a small point that is rather inconvenient to your simplistic meme.

So the Afghan Muslims expelled their Jews because of what a completely unrelated group of Jews did in Israel? Sounds just like something Muhamemd would have done (and he did do crap like this). Or Hitler.

Quote:

Jewish communities in the arab world had been amongst the most stable and prosperous right up until the 1940s.

Except of course for when the Muslims were slaughtering them and "cleansing" them.

Quote:

And then suddenly out of the blue they found themselves the enemy. I wonder why?

Because the Muslims were following Muhammed's and Hitler's lead. A bunch of European Jews moved into Israel without the proper approval of the islamic government of Afghanistan, so the Afghan's had no choice but to punish every Jew they could find. Just like every single other Arab and nearby Muslim country.

Quote:

Am I excusing the treatment of the jews at the hands of the arabs? No. But I am certainly not going to lie down and swallow the lie about it being nothing other than islamic-inspired anti-semitism.

Hitler also inspired it. He toured the middle east and found a willing audience for his rants about The Jews.

Quote:

Israel was created by European jews.

Exactly. And the Arab and nearby Muslim countries responded in unison by punishing every Jew they could find. They expelled then, then sent their armies after them to finish the job. What the Europeans intended as a safe haven for them, the Arabs saw as another of Hitler's ghettos, only this time on a grander scale. All that they learned from the holocaust was slaughtering Jews.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 7:34pm

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 6:04pm:

Can you explain why else the Arab and nearby Muslim countries would create their own little progrom while the rest of the world was in revulsion of the consequences of antisemitism?

Because Palestinians were being terrorised and ethnically cleansed by zionists. Nothing to do with the holocaust. As I said, stop making sh!t up.

Question FD: do you know the meaning of the word 'context'?

A few supplementary questions:
1. Were jews being systematically perseucted and expelled in the muslim world much before the creation of Israel?

2. Do you acknowledge the roll played by jewish terrorist groups like The Irgun in creating tensions and fear amongst the arab populations?

3. Do you acknowledge that ethnic cleansing over arab population centres had already started before the arabs invaded Israel?

4. Do you acknowledge the tensions zionist leaders had created in provoking arab leaders by loudly and proudly boasting that arabs were to be driven out of Palestine - which may have contributed to the animosity arabs felt towards the jews?

Think carefully on these questions before launching yet another islamophobic rant about the causes of this conflict.

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 6:04pm:

So the Afghan Muslims expelled their Jews because of what a completely unrelated group of Jews did in Israel?

Afghan jews were not expelled. Normally I'd say something like 'stop making sh!t up' - but I'd be sounding like a broken record:

Quote:

By 1948, over 5,000 Jews existed in Afghanistan, and after they were allowed to emigrate in 1951, most of them moved to Israel and the United States.[1] Afghanistan was the only Muslim country that allowed Jewish families to immigrate without revoking their citizenship first. Afghan Jews left the country en masse in the 1960s, their exile to New York and Tel Aviv was motivated by a search for a better life but not because of religious persecution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Afghanistan#History

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 6:04pm:

A bunch of European Jews moved into Israel without the proper approval of the islamic government of Afghanistan, so the Afghan's had no choice but to punish every Jew they could find.

Yes, you can stop that little Afghanistan quip since we have just exposed it for the lie that it is. Its like the camel urine lies all over again.

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 6:04pm:

Hitler also inspired it.

Of course he did. We already know he inspired the non-expulsion of Afghani jews, so why not everywhere else? If you're going to lie, may as well lie big.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by freediver on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 8:46pm

Quote:

Because Palestinians were being terrorised and ethnically cleansed by zionists.

I see. So seeing this "ethnic cleansing" so close to home made them want to get in on the act before it went out of fashion? And unlike the Israelis, they sent their armies in to finish the job off....

Or did they make a rational conclusion that 1 000 000 Arab Jews is tent cities all over Israel would help the plight of the Palestinians?

Quote:

Nothing to do with the holocaust. As I said, stop making sh!t up.

Israel has nothing at all to do with the holocaust? Hitler touring the middle east had nothing to do with Muslims "allowing" all the Jews to leave soon after? It had nothing to do with them sending armies to wipe them out after the Jews who had fled and (surprise, surprise) displaced even more Palestinians?

Quote:

Were jews being systematically perseucted and expelled in the muslim world much before the creation of Israel?

Sure. Muhammed himself slaughtered Jews. Muhammed himself practiced ethnic cleansing.

Quote:

Afghan jews were not expelled.

;D They just all happened to flee all at the same time, with the assistance of government policy. Move along now, nothing to see here.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 9:29pm

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 8:46pm:

Believe it or not FD, but driving people off their lands in the name of creating a hostile state creates tensions amongst surrounding powers. The sort of tensions that create wars. Is this really so hard to grasp?

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 8:46pm:

Israel has nothing at all to do with the holocaust?

Thats not what I said - I said the military response by the arabs to the zionist's aggression in Palestine had nothing to do with the holocaust. It did however have everything to do with anxiety of having a hostile apartheid regime being planted in the middle of the arab heartland.

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 8:46pm:

Hitler touring the middle east had nothing to do with Muslims "allowing" all the Jews to leave soon after?

I haven't found any reference to that yet. Did Hitler actually tour the middle east? I'm beginning to think you made this up as well.

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 8:46pm:

Sure. Muhammed himself slaughtered Jews. Muhammed himself practiced ethnic cleansing.

Right, so the jews have been systematically persecuted, massacred and driven out right from the time of the prophet? Interesting then that significant jewish communities existed in the muslim world well into the 20th century. In fact not only existed, but thrived. Remind me again where did the Sephardi jews find sanctuary after they were massacred and expelled from Iberia during the catholic inquisitions?

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 8:46pm:

They just all happened to flee all at the same time, with the assistance of government policy. Move along now, nothing to see here.

There was the small matter of now having the choice to go to their own state. Do you actually have any evidence that Afghan jews were expelled, or are you just going to keep discrediting yourself?

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by freediver on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:02pm

Quote:

That was the plan wasn't it? A hostile Israel that would lead to their final solution?

Quote:

Thats not what I said - I said the military response by the arabs to the zionist's aggression in Palestine had nothing to do with the holocaust.

So none of those frothing at the mouth crazies saw it as their chance to finish Hitler's work?

Quote:

I haven't found any reference to that yet. Did Hitler actually tour the middle east? I'm beginning to think you made this up as well.

I apologise. I cannot find any reference to it either. I'll look into it more tomorrow. It came up discussion here a while back.

Quote:

Right, so the jews have been systematically persecuted, massacred and driven out right from the time of the prophet?

Abu called it liberation. All non-Muslims were driven out of an area of the Arabian peninsula in the time of the prophet. Muhammed slaughtered Jews and practiced collective punishment (much like the treatment of Arab Jews in response to European Jews turning up in Israel without approval of Muslims). All non-Muslims were treated as second class citizens under Islamic law, but the Jews received special attention, most likely because of the example set by Muhammed. The fact that you can dig up counter examples does not disprove this, and more than Germans protecting Jews in WWII proves that Hitler was a nice guy.

Quote:

Interesting then that significant jewish communities existed in the muslim world well into the 20th century. In fact not only existed, but thrived.

So where are they now? Tell me Gandalf, who was more successful at getting rid of their Jews - the Arabs or the Nazis?

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Avram Horowitz on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:15pm

Gandalf do you accept that European descended Jews born in Israel have every right to be here?

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:28pm

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:02pm:

That was the plan wasn't it? A hostile Israel that would lead to their final solution?

That makes absolutely no sense - but my explanation does - ethnic cleansing and sabre rattling in the name of imperialist aggression tends to lead to hostile responses.

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:02pm:

So none of those frothing at the mouth crazies saw it as their chance to finish Hitler's work?

Nope thats your story. When you write it like that, do you get a sense of how ridiculous it sounds?

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:02pm:

All non-Muslims were driven out of an area of the Arabian peninsula in the time of the prophet.

I'm pretty sure you made that up too. Unless you can elaborate with some evidence?

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:02pm:

Muhammed slaughtered Jews

People tend to get slaughtered during times of war - including muslims believe it or not. Thats kinda the nature of war - in this case a war that was not started by the muslims.

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:02pm:

and practiced collective punishment

Nah, I'm pretty sure you're referring to the same above-mentioned slaughter. You can call it both slaughter and collective punishment, but please don't try and pass it off as two separate activities.

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:02pm:

but the Jews received special attention, most likely because of the example set by Muhammed.

Special treatment? Hmmm pretty sure thats made up story number 3 in this post alone. You going for some sort of record here?

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:02pm:

So where are they now? Tell me Gandalf, who was more successful at getting rid of their Jews - the Arabs or the Nazis?

Such a relevant question there FD. I'm sure that will absolutely nail the question of WHY arab-Israeli hostilities started in the first place.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:42pm

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 10:15pm:

Gandalf do you accept that European descended Jews born in Israel have every right to be here?

Absolutely. That was never the issue here.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Herbert on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 6:48am

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 2:05pm:

*************

And a very big 'Thank you' from me for all the many and wonderful inventions and discoveries you Jews have made that has contributed so greatly to the comforts and conveniences we in the West enjoy today.

Shalom!

They forgot to list all the Jewish American comedians, actors, singers, musicians, politicians, etc etc. and inventors.

Inventors ... Shalom aleichem!

All of this achievement from only a relatively small world community was only possible because their parents didn't make them follow Footy. 8-)

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by adamant on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 3:26pm

Two interesting article's in the American Thinker do not appear to agree with your observations Gandalf.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/06/christianity_in_peril_in_turkish_cyprus.html

http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/06/jews_from_muslim_lands.html

Move along please nothing to see here, Muslims love people of the book, No double standards allowed in islam, Move along please or loose your filthy kuffer head you descendants of pigs and apes.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by freediver on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 7:08pm

Quote:

Nope thats your story. When you write it like that, do you get a sense of how ridiculous it sounds?

That's what I think of Muslims like Abu, Ahmedinejad etc. And they are not some tiny minoirty. They have attacked Israel over and over again. Yes it is rediculous. But it is also true.

Quote:

I'm pretty sure you made that up too. Unless you can elaborate with some evidence?

Have you seen the freeways signs that say "Muslims only". Even today there are remnants of this cleansing.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1211960725/4#4

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1226292000/10#10

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1170642873/288#288

Quote:

People tend to get slaughtered during times of war

He wiped out entire tribes. He lined them up and chopped all their heads off. Not just soldiers either. I'm sure if Muhammed had gas chambers he would have made use of them.

Quote:

Nah, I'm pretty sure you're referring to the same above-mentioned slaughter. You can call it both slaughter and collective punishment, but please don't try and pass it off as two separate activities.

Are you suggesting there was only one?

Quote:

Special treatment? Hmmm pretty sure thats made up story number 3 in this post alone. You going for some sort of record here?

Muslims rant about Jews far more than they rant about Christians or any other group. This is not some recent development. Slaughtering Jews is in the Koran.

Quote:

Such a relevant question there FD. I'm sure that will absolutely nail the question of WHY arab-Israeli hostilities started in the first place.

Sorry, I keep forgetting. It is Europe and Israel's fault that Arab and other nearby Muslim countries got rid of their Jews.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 9:01pm

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 7:08pm:

That's what I think of Muslims like Abu, Ahmedinejad etc. And they are not some tiny minoirty.

How do you know? You hardly ever talk to muslims, you've said so yourself. Almost your entire real-life experience with muslims is limited to this forum - where you goad and troll muslims until they say what you want to hear. Like I said there is a context for muslim bitterness towards Israel, and it has nothing to do with 'frothing at the mouth'.. Hitler imitating. It is baseless and just plain bigoted.

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 7:08pm:

Have you seen the freeways signs that say "Muslims only". Even today there are remnants of this cleansing.

Freeway, FD - singular. It is a single freeway into the holy city of Mecca. Everyone knows Mecca is a muslim only city. As far as I know, non-muslims have free access to every other freeway and city in Saudi Arabia (and the rest of the muslim world). You are either being dishonest and/or just making sh!t up again.

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 7:08pm:

He wiped out entire tribes.

;D there you go again - again its tribe - singular. And they were executed because they insisted on being judged by jewish law - not islamic law - and the jewish proscribed punishment for violating a treaty was death.

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 7:08pm:

Are you suggesting there was only one?

Yes I am FD - because unlike you I don't make sh!t up. You are trully unbelievable - but in a really buggered up way, bloody hilarious.

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 7:08pm:

Muslims rant about Jews far more than they rant about Christians or any other group. This is not some recent development. Slaughtering Jews is in the Koran.

;D ;D ;D No its not FD - God I don't know whether to laugh or cry, the sheer spine you have to come out with such blatant lies - presumably with a straight face. I really should keep a list.

But anyway, throw-away lines like "muslims rant more about jews" today, isn't even close to demonstrating that historically muslims gave jews "[negative] special treatment" ever since the time of Muhammad. Comparatively speaking, its fair to say that jews were treated quite well by the muslims - notwithstanding the occasional massacre - which all minorities are victims of at some point. The attitude of the muslims only changed after zionism hit the arab world - hence the context that you refuse to acknowledge.

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 7:08pm:

It is Europe and Israel's fault that Arab and other nearby Muslim countries got rid of their Jews.

Did I say that?? What is wrong with you? Ethnic cleansing/expulsions are *NEVER* excusable - that goes for both the muslims and the jews. I condemn both - whereas you refuse to even recognise one took place, and hold the other as the only thing that defines the entire arab-Israeli conflict.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Lionel Edriess on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 9:19pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 9:01pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 7:08pm:

That's what I think of Muslims like Abu, Ahmedinejad etc. And they are not some tiny minoirty.

Have you seen the freeways signs that say "Muslims only". Even today there are remnants of this cleansing.

He wiped out entire tribes.

Are you suggesting there was only one?

Yes I am FD - because unlike you I don't make sh!t up. You are trully unbelievable - but in a really buggered up way, bloody hilarious.

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 7:08pm:

Muslims rant about Jews far more than they rant about Christians or any other group. This is not some recent development. Slaughtering Jews is in the Koran.

It is Europe and Israel's fault that Arab and other nearby Muslim countries got rid of their Jews.

Disregarding the Arab-Israeli conflict, what is the future for us kaffirs in the next Ummah? In the words of the Prophet?

In plain English.

Why does Holocaust spring to mind?

And what can you say, bolstered by the words of the Prophet, to allay such fears?

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by freediver on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 9:43pm

Quote:

How do you know? You hardly ever talk to muslims, you've said so yourself.

There are a few billion Muslims in the world. Surely there is a better way to find out what they think than asking each one.

Quote:

Almost your entire real-life experience with muslims is limited to this forum - where you goad and troll muslims until they say what you want to hear.

I want to hear the truth. I keep asking until I get a straight answer. What is wrong with that?

Quote:

Like I said there is a context for muslim bitterness towards Israel, and it has nothing to do with 'frothing at the mouth'.. Hitler imitating. It is baseless and just plain bigoted.

Right, they are imitating Muhammed. Is that better?

Quote:

I posted three links to discussions with other Muslims about the historical event, and I even pointed out the obvious modern maintenance of the situation. Ethnic cleansing is written into the Koran.

Quote:

its fair to say that jews were treated quite well by the muslims - notwithstanding the occasional massacre

Jolly good show then. Don't know what the Jews are complaining about. Surely they should give up this fanciful notion that they need their own homeland and can't rely on the Muslims to look after them. After all, what would one more massacre be in the grand scheme of things?

Quote:

Did I say that?? What is wrong with you? Ethnic cleansing/expulsions are *NEVER* excusable

Except of course when Muhammed does it.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 11:28pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 9:01pm:

Comparatively speaking, its fair to say that jews were treated quite well by the muslims - notwithstanding the occasional massacre - which all minorities are victims of at some point. The attitude of the muslims only changed after zionism hit the arab world - hence the context that you refuse to acknowledge.

I am reassured.

Comparatively speaking, its fair to say that Muslims were treated quite well by the West - notwithstanding the occasional military intervention in self-defence.

In the 1990s the West was even defending the Muslims in the Balkans. But after they flew planes into the World Trade Center by way of thanks, the attitude changed.

Normal.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 12:12am

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 9:43pm:

There are a few billion Muslims in the world. Surely there is a better way to find out what they think than asking each one.

Says he who until this point has run ad-nauseum with "I know what the entire muslim population thinks based on what Abu and/or Falah said".

Prey tell, since you have apparently progressed from this line of thinking, what other ways have you determined that muslims are "frothing at the mouth" and are only interested in finishing off what Hitler started? Keeping in mind there are, in your words, "a few billion muslims in the world".

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 9:43pm:

I want to hear the truth. I keep asking until I get a straight answer. What is wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with that. However you have demonstrated with your wiki articles that you are prone to attributing something said by muslims - that they demonstrably never said at all. Like your claims about spousal rape - Falah is used as a source for the claim that islam permits spousal rape, even though in the thread you linked he argued at length the exact opposite. Or, more blatantly, refer to discussions that never even existed - such as the camel urine claims.

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 9:43pm:

Right, they are imitating Muhammed. Is that better?

hmmm no - still baseless and bigoted.

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 9:43pm:

I posted three links to discussions with other Muslims about the historical event, and I even pointed out the obvious modern maintenance of the situation. Ethnic cleansing is written into the Koran.

Thats nice FD - but it has nothing to do with why you referred to multiple "muslim only" freeways in the arab world, when in reality there is exactly one. Oh and your last sentence is made-up-sh!t about the Quran number 2 in two posts.

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 9:43pm:

The jews have plenty they can justly complain about - but crying innocence at the violence that occured in 1947-48 is not one of them.

You are sounding like a broken record with you continually ignoring the proper context of the 1948 war. I wouldn't even mind so much if you would say something like the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians was justified in view of the horrors the jews had experienced - likewise for the King David Hotel bombing and other acts of terrorism.

I agree that something needed to be done, You might even be able to convince me that a jewish state should have been created - with proper consultation, without the terrorism and ethnic cleansing, and with international cooperation (and preferably without key international negotiators being assassinated). Provided it did not impinge the rights of the non-jews - as specified in the Balfour Declaration. But you seem incapable of discussing any of this, instead you are determined to remain fixated on your 'frothing at the mouth' evil muslim meme. No constructive discussion can come out of that.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by freediver on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 8:22am

Quote:

Says he who until this point has run ad-nauseum with "I know what the entire muslim population thinks based on what Abu and/or Falah said".

I was more going by the fact that they booted all the Jews out then sent in their armies to finish Allah's work, hence my reference to better ways of gauging their opinion. That Abu supports that sort of thing merely reinforces what is already obvious.

Quote:

Like your claims about spousal rape - Falah is used as a source for the claim that islam permits spousal rape, even though in the thread you linked he argued at length the exact opposite.

Then conceded that spousal rape is indeed legal under Islam. As is sex slavery. BTW, I also used it as an example of Muslims deliberately misleading people. Cunning eh? ANd it only took me about 50 pages to get the straight answer.

Quote:

Oh and your last sentence is made-up-sh!t about the Quran number 2 in two posts.

I have given you references to the ethnic cleansing commanded by Muhammed (remnants of which still remain today) which you are steadfastly ignoring because apparently it is more important to get the number of freeways going into Mecca correct.

Quote:

I agree that something needed to be done, You might even be able to convince me that a jewish state should have been created - with proper consultation

So tell me Gandalf, how would that consultation have gone down? Is this like the consultation Abu insisted that George Bush should have had with every Afghan tribal elder on his way to acquiring Osama Bin Laden?

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by freediver on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 8:32am

The culmination of 1400 years of Jews "thriving" under Islam - not withstanding the occasional massacre of course.

It started with ethnic cleansing by Muhammed himself (yes, even if there is only one freeway into Mecca).

1400 years later, while the world is still reeling from the horror of the holocaust, the Arabs and some other Muslim countries decide that now is an auspicious time for their final solution, which they achieve with a success and efficiency that Hitler could only dream of. No railways or wasted infrastructure for these Jews, they can buy their own ticket. So they finally get rid of the few remaining Jews. Then they send in their armies to slaughter the Jews who ended up as refugees in tent cities in the Israeli desert - because they are still on Muslim territory, and because they created their own Muslim refugee problem, which is obviously unacceptable. This is where a comparison with Hitler gets difficult, because they suffer the most humiliating defeat imaginable, like if the German army had been sent packing by Amsterdam. It could only have been more embarrassing for them if the Egyptian tanks got bogged in the red sea on the way into battle.

This of course makes the Jews the villains, for not consulting with the Muslims on how to be refugees. And of course the solution is for the Jews to once again live under the yoke of Islam, so they can thrive like they have done for the last 1400 years (notwithstanding the occasional massacre).

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 10:42am

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 8:22am:

I was more going by the fact that they booted all the Jews out then sent in their armies to finish Allah's work, hence my reference to better ways of gauging their opinion.

Your sequence of events is wrong. The jews were mostly expelled after the war.

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 8:22am:

Then conceded that spousal rape is indeed legal under Islam.

No he didn't. Seriously, what motivates such bare faced lies?

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 8:22am:

This is not from the quran - you made that up.

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 8:22am:

Well not assassinating one of the key international negotiators would have been a good start. Not committing the worst terrorist atrocities the conflict has yet seen against the British would have been a good start. And not driving out the arabs before any intervention by the neighbouring arab countries would have been a good start.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 10:46am

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 8:32am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 12:17pm:

I suggest you look at some objective history, rather than be a mindless drone of Israeli propaganda. As early as 1920 the British foreign office observed that the zionists were creating serious political tensions between the jews and the arabs, by openly boasting that they would overrun the entire area of Palestine - with no consideration to the native arabs living there. Zionist leaders such as Ben-Gurion (as quoted previously) were making it clear that any partition plan to grant both the jews and arabs their own state, was merely a stepping stone towards gaining control of the entire area - and once again to hell with the arab natives. From around 1946-47, the jewish terrorist groups Irgun and the Stern Gang were conducting a systematic terror campaign in key arab urban centres to clear the way for zionist expansion. This was well before the arab nations intervened. When the British rulers attempted to clamp down on this terror campaign, the terrorism was redirected to the British - most famously with the King David Hotel bombing - killing 91 civilians - to date the largest single terrorist attack in the entire history of the conflict. When war broke out in 1948, there is little historical doubt that the Israelis used it as an opportunity to systematically drive out (ethnically cleanse) hundreds of thousands of arab civilians.

Yes, there has been extremism and atrocities by both sides, but once again, as you *ALWAYS* do - you paint this sort of conflict involving muslims as a simple case of muslims only behaving badly. This misses the entire context of zionist provocation, and atrocities meted out against arab civilians in the name of an imperialist agenda.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Avram Horowitz on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 11:58am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 10:42am:

I dont agree with this.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 12:05pm

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 11:58am:

I dont agree with this.

Well at least you are kinda addressing it...

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Avram Horowitz on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 12:08pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 12:05pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 11:58am:

I dont agree with this.

Well at least you are kinda addressing it...

You speak of a time of desperation and of necessary actions required.

Israel was born among violence, we know this. i know this and so do you.

But from both sides. The arabs aggressed on us too.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by freediver on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 12:45pm

Here you go Gandalf:

falah wrote on Mar 4^th, 2012 at 12:16pm:

Forced sex in marriage is not a punishable offence in Islam.

Lucky we have the wiki hey? Otherwise all we would see is 100 pages of Falah accusing me of lying because Islam encourages men to respect their wives (while also insisting it is a wife's duty to satisfy her husband on demand).

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 1:18pm

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 12:08pm:

Israel was born among violence, we know this. i know this and so do you.

But from both sides. The arabs aggressed on us too.

Take note FD. Gee whiz I never thought I'd be quoting Avram to counter you knuckleheads - twice in one day.\

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 12:45pm:

Here you go Gandalf:

That was the most predictable reply ever. As pointed out in the very thread you quote, that is not a concession that it is legal under islam. I believe Falah himself went back and explained that to you.

you make sh!t up to slander islam - the quicker you acknowledge this the quicker we can all move on. Acknowledgement is the first stage to recovery FD.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by adamant on Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 12:54pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 12:17pm:

When the muslim armies conquered Jerusalem in the 7th century, jews were allowed back to their holy place for the first time in centuries

Your source please Gadalf.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 12:17pm:

jewish scholars flourished under islamic rule, and made huge contributions to the flourishing of science and philosophy

The Jews made most of them as muslims are so racist and lazy they were too idle to learn a foreign language. The jews are still very clever at science but the lazy muslims are not able to claim the kudos for it.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 2:21pm

Quote:

Upon Umar's arrival in Jerusalem, a pact known as The Umariyya Covenant was composed. It surrendered the city and gave guarantees of civil and religious liberty to Christians in exchange for jizya. It was signed by caliph Umar on behalf of the Muslims, and witnessed by Khalid, Amr, Abdur Rahman bin Awf, and Muawiyah. In late April 637, Jerusalem was officially surrendered to the caliph.[16] For the first time, after almost 500 years of oppressive Roman rule, Jews were once again allowed to live and worship inside Jerusalem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%28637%29#Surrender

Adamant wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 12:54pm:

what complete and utter rubbish. It was the muslims who undertook the greatest translation movement of Greek literature the world had seen. Not to mention Persian, Indian etc.

But at least you agree that jews flourished intellectually under muslim rule.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by adamant on Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 2:36pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 2:21pm:

It was the muslims who undertook the greatest translation movement of Greek literature the world had seen

Very sorry Gandalf but it was those pesky Jews that did the translations!

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 2:46pm

- al kindi was a jew was he?
- The Banu Musa brothers were jewish were they?
- Thabit ibn Qurra was a jew was he?

Stop making a fool of yourself.

There were also great christian translators. The islamic empire during the golden age was very cosmopolitan.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 2:53pm

just getting back to the first conquest of Jerusalem, before the muslims could invite the jews back, they firstly had to clean up the pile of muck and manure the christians had piled on the Temple Mount - in an effort to offend the jews, whom they had already banished anyway:

Quote:

'Umar arrived from Damascus. After finalizing the Pact of 'Umar with the leaders of Jerusalem, he requested to see the Temple mount. When 'Umar reached the old ruined gates of the Temple he was horrified to see the filth, "which was then all about the holy sanctuary, had settled on the steps of the gates so that it even came out into the streets in which the gate opened, and it had accumulated so greatly as almost to reach up the ceiling of the gateway." The only way to get up to the platform was to crawl on hands and knees. Sophronius went first and the Muslims struggled up behind. When they arrived at the top, the Muslims gazed appalled at the vast and desolate expanse of Herod's platform, still covered with piles of fallen masonry and garbage. The shock of this sad encounter with the holy place whose fame had reached them in far-off Arabia was never forgotten: Muslims claimed that they called Anastasis al-qumamah, "the Dungheap," in retaliation for the impious of the Christians on the Temple Mount.[3]

'Umar does not seem to have spent any time on this occasion examining the Sakhrah rock, which would later play such an important part in Islam in the future – but rather concentrated on cleaning the Temple mount of filth.[4] Once he had taken stock of the situation, he threw handfuls of dung and rubble into his cloak and then hurled it over the city wall into the Valley of Hinnom. Immediately his followers did the same.[5]

http://www.alsadiqin.org/en/index.php?title=Conquest_and_Victory_at_Jerusalem

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by adamant on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 12:31pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2013 at 12:17pm:

When the muslim armies conquered Jerusalem in the 7th century, jews were allowed back to their holy place for the first time in centuries.

Why is it that Muslims seem to think it OK to rewrite history.

What wiki ACTUALY says

Following the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem, Jews were once again allowed to live and practice their religion with more freedom in Jerusalem, 8 years after their massacre by the Byzantines and nearly 500 years after their expulsion from Judea by the Roman Empire.[2]

What happened was:- Wiki again

Roman rule which began in 63 BCE continued until a revolt from 66–70 CE culminated in the capture of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple, the centre of the national and religious life of the Jews throughout the world.

Exactly when Roman Anti-Judaism began is a question of scholarly debate, however historian H.H. Ben-Sasson has proposed that the "Crisis under Caligula" (37–41) was the "first open break between Rome and the Jews".[8]

The complete destruction of Jerusalem, and the settlement of several Greek and Roman colonies in Judea indicated the express intention of the Roman government to prevent the political regeneration of the Jewish nation. Nevertheless, forty years later the Jews put forth efforts to recover their former freedom. With Israel exhausted, they strove to establish commonwealths on the ruins of Hellenism in Cyrene, Cyprus, Egypt, and Mesopotamia. These efforts, resolute but unwise, were suppressed by Trajan (115–117 CE), and under Hadrian the same fate befell the attempt of the Jews of Israel to regain their independence (133–135 AD). From this time on, in spite of unimportant movements under Antoninus, Marcus Aurelius, and Severus, the Jews, reduced in numbers, destitute, and crushed, lost their preponderance in the Jewish world. Jerusalem had become, under the name "Ælia Capitolina", a Roman colony and entirely pagan city. Jews were forbidden entrance on pain of death, except for the day of Tisha B'Av, see also Anti-Judaism in the Roman Empire. Despite the decree, there has been a continual Jewish presence in Jerusalem for 3,300 years, and 43 Jewish communities in Israel remained in the 6th century: 12 on the coast, in the Negev, and east of the Jordan, and 31 villages in Galilee and in the Jordan valley. Yavne on the coastal plain, associated with Yochanan ben Zakai, was an important center of Rabbinic Judaism.[9]

The Jews have lived in Jerusalem for centuries Gandalf they will never give it up to the arabs.

If you wish to learn more buy "Jerusalem The Biography" by Simon Sebag Montefiore.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by adamant on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 12:45pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 2:53pm:

Did Mujir al-Din (muslim Jerusalemite) come by this information by word of mouth handed down from father to son like the good old days word perfect after 8 centuries of hearsay' or was it divine inspiration from god? ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 6:27pm

Adamant, the jews were not allowed to live in Jerusalem during Byzantine (christian) rule. The few families left in the surrounding areas were grudgingly allowed to come to the temple to worship. However it was only after the muslim conquest that jews were allowed back in to live in the city.

Adamant wrote on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 12:31pm:

The Jews have lived in Jerusalem for centuries Gandalf they will never give it up to the arabs.

If you wish to learn more buy "Jerusalem The Biography" by Simon Sebag Montefiore.

It just so happens that most of my knowledge of Omar's capture of Jerusalem comes from Montefiore's book. Unfortunately for you, his account refutes your version at pretty much every step.

On welcoming Omar as a liberator:

Quote:

The Jews too welcomed the Arabs after centuries of Bzantine repression. It is said that Jews, as well as Christians, rode in the Muslim armies. Omar's interest in the Temple Mount understandably excited Jewish hopes, because the Commander of the Believers not only invited the Jews to maintain the Temple Mount but also allowed them to pray there with the Muslims....

Omar certainly invited the leader of Tiberias' Jewish community, the Gaon, and seventy Jewish families to return to Jerusalem where they settled in the area south of the Temple Mount

pp176-177

Interestingly too, Montefiore rejects the claim that Omar agreed to abide by the law of the previous christian rulers to ban the jews from Jerusalem:

Quote:

The traditional text of the covenant [muslim-christian treaty for the surrender of the city] or Pact of Omar with the Christians claims Omar agreed to ban the jews from Jerusalem. This is Christian wishful thinking or a later forgery because we know that Omar welcomed the Jews back in Jerusalem, that he and the caliphs allowed Jewish worship on the Temple Mount and that the Jews did not leave again as along [sic] as Islam held sway

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by adamant on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 10:11pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 6:27pm:

The Jews have lived in Jerusalem for centuries Gandalf they will never give it up to the arabs.

If you wish to learn more buy "Jerusalem The Biography" by Simon Sebag Montefiore.

pp176-177

Interestingly too, Montefiore rejects the claim that Omar agreed to abide by the law of the previous christian rulers to ban the jews from Jerusalem:

[quote]The traditional text of the covenant [muslim-christian treaty for the surrender of the city] or Pact of Omar with the Christians claims Omar agreed to ban the jews from Jerusalem. This is Christian wishful thinking or a later forgery because we know that Omar welcomed the Jews back in Jerusalem, that he and the caliphs allowed Jewish worship on the Temple Mount and that the Jews did not leave again as along [sic] as Islam held sway

p177

Suggest you stop talking sh!t adamant - and take care of who you actually reference to source your bullshit claims ;D

Better stick to jihadwatch and answering-islam - not actual scholarly work. ;D[/quote]

Chapter 15 "the Apogee Of Byzantium" 312 to 518 AD Constantine The Great,The God of Victory Page 173 on!

What page are you on Gandalf?

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 10:26pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 2:21pm:

It was the muslims who undertook the greatest translation movement of Greek literature the world had seen. Not to mention Persian, Indian etc.

But at least you agree that jews flourished intellectually under muslim rule.

This is simply not true unless you mean Jewish and Christian converts to Islam. But even then it is debatable.

The Arabs did not learn the languages of the conquered until well after their Islamic rule was established and then only in very small numbers. Possessing God's own book in classical Arabic means very little incentive to learn other, inferior languages. You do not realise this because you are not a native Arab Muslim. You are an outsider yourself.

Most of the translations were done by the conquered Christian and Jewish population. Some converted to Islam, most didn't.

I recommend you consult the Routledge Encyclopedia of Translation.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by adamant on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 11:01pm

Soren wrote on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 10:26pm:

gandalf wrote Yesterday at 2:21pm:
It was the muslims who undertook the greatest translation movement of Greek literature the world had seen. Not to mention Persian, Indian etc.

But at least you agree that jews flourished intellectually under muslim rule.

This is simply not true unless you mean Jewish and Christian converts to Islam. But even then it is debatable.

The Arabs did not learn the languages of the conquered until well after their Islamic rule was established and then only in very small numbers. Possessing God's own book in classical Arabic means very little incentive to learn other, inferior languages. You do not realise this because you are not a native Arab Muslim. You are an outsider yourself.

Most of the translations were done by the conquered Christian and Jewish population. Some converted to Islam, most didn't.

I recommend you consult the Routledge Encyclopedia of Translation.

Will do Soren and thank you.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 11:02pm

Adamant wrote on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 10:11pm:

Chapter 15 "the Apogee Of Byzantium" 312 to 518 AD Constantine The Great,The God of Victory Page 173 on!

What page are you on Gandalf?

The page that refutes your bullshit claims about the jew-hating muslim conquerers.

As to your chapter - have you actually read it? Some exceprts:

Quote:

When the Romans worshipped many gods, they tolerated others, but a monotheistic religion demanded the recognition of one truth, one god. The persecution of the jewish Christ-killers whose wretchedness proved Christian truth, thus became essential. Constantine ordered that any Jews who tried to stop their brethren from converting to Christianity were to be instantly burned. Yet a small Jewish community had been living in Jerusalem, praying at a synagogue on Mount Zion, for over a century and Jews discreetly prayed on the deserted Temple Mount. Now the 'detestable mob of Jews', as Constantine called them, were banned from Jerusalem except for once a year when they were allowed on to the Temple Mount...

Soon after, the jews had a Roman champion - Julian, who promised to rebuild the Jewish temple and allowing jews back in to the city. But fate was against the jews:

Quote:

As the jews took control of Jerusalem, Julian invaded Persia with 65000 troops. But on 27 May 363 Jerusalem was struck by an earthquake that somehow ignited the building materials.

The Christians were delighted by this 'wonderful phenomenom', though they may well have helped it along with arson.

Julian was killed in battle, and was succeeded by the commander of his guard, who:

Quote:

restored Christianity, reversed all Julian's acts and again banned the Jews from Jerusalem

The rest of the chapter describes systematic persecution and periodic lynchings of jews under Byzantine-christian rule - right up until the muslim conquest.

What exactly was your point about the book again? Have you even read it?

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 11:11pm

Adamant wrote on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 11:01pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 10:26pm:

Will do Soren and thank you.

Cheers. It is the source of this post.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1372681303/28#28

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 11:15pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 11:02pm:

What exactly was your point about the book again? Have you even read it?

I have and the book's point, inter alia, is that the Jews have a continuous, unbroken connection to Jerusalem and the land of Israel while the Muslims' initial connection is a farcical invention and subsequently a connection of invasion and conquest. Occasionally benign, occasionally negligent, but always an imposition.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 11:58pm

Soren wrote on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 10:26pm:

I recommend you consult the Routledge Encyclopedia of Translation.

Thank you Soren, I found that reference very useful. For example:

Quote:

The nomadic Arabs who came out of the desert had a great deal to learn from the nations they conquered and relatively little to offer in return. And they were eager learners. Inspired the richness of the civilizations they were now encountering for the first time, and explicitly encouraged by the Qur'an to seek knowledge wherever it could be found, they began a huge campaign to acquire the learning of the nations under their rule and naturally turned to translation as the means by which the new sources of knowledge could be accessed

Quote:

The Arabs are credited with initiating the first organized, large-scale translation activity in history.

Hmmm ARABS are credited with INITIATING the largest translation program in history.

It kind of makes a complete mockery of your claim "Possessing God's own book in classical Arabic means very little incentive to learn other, inferior languages" - wouldn't you say?

So how committed was the translation program to the islamic ruled middle east?

Quote:

Most importantly, the translation movement which evolved under Islamic rule was organized and institutionalized. Translation was sponsored and supported by the government and specific institutions, or translation chambers, were set up to initiate and regulate the flow of translations. The first such translation chamber was set up by al-Mansur, the second Abbasid caliph (754-775) and expanded considerably by al-Rashid (786-809) and al-Ma'mun (813-33)

As to your dogmatic claim that all the translations were only ever done by christians, jews, or former non-muslims who were (presumably) forcibly converted:

Quote:

Generally speaking, however, it is often very difficult to apportion credit for translation or original work to specific ethnic groups within this melting pot of an empire.

- or in other words, you don't have a damn clue. Yet one thing remains for certain - they were definitely not *ALL* or even *MOSTLY* christians, jews or converts. Like Ibn Qurrah:

Quote:

Ibn Qurrah and his disciples were responsible for translating most of the Greek works on astronomy and mathematics, including the works of Achimedes and Apollonius of Perga

Then there was the Banu-Musa brothers and Al Kindi mentioned previously - amongst others.

So thanks Soren, for that source which completely and utterly exposes your bigoted perspective on muslim history for the crock of sh!t that it is. Nice work.

God, I'm getting sick of you two constantly putting your foot in it. Your blind hatred of islam is just making you act like fools. Do you have no humility? Any normal person would just stand back and keep quiet after being so utterly disproven - you two, just prefer to come out swinging - as if you really want to make even bigger idiots of yourselves.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:05am

The Arab caliphs ordered the translations. (This is why no literature or drama was translated on their orders, btw)

The Jews and the Syriac and Greek-speaking Christians did the work. It is obvious from the references you cite.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:28am

Soren wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:05am:

The Arab caliphs ordered the translations.

*YOUR* reference describes the arab thirst for knowledge - inspired by islam and the quran - and who channeled this great thirst by initiating the greatest translation program in the history of mankind.

In other words, the *ENTIRE PREMISE* of your argument to date is completely blown out of the water.

Soren wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:05am:

The Jews and the Syriac and Greek-speaking Christians did the work. It is obvious from the references you cite.

Tell me Soren, what exactly is it about this simple sentence - "Generally speaking, however, it is often very difficult to apportion credit for translation or original work to specific ethnic groups" - that you are having trouble understanding?

Also please explain to me, with such a wealth of jewish and christian talent in the pre-islamic middle east and near east - why was it that they didn't actually start exercising their talent until after the muslims came along? Well we already know the answer to that - because - as your own source so eloquently describes - it was the muslim-arabs who *INITIATED* a great translation program, and gave the christian and jewish *AND MUSLIM* translators the institutions, resources and tools they needed to go forth and translate and learn.

Refuting you is starting to feel like kicking a helpless puppy.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by adamant on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:09pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 11:02pm:

have you actually read it?

Yes I have Gandalf.

I own my copy unlike you who cherry pick steal filch thieve rob alter ignore rewrite kill rape and debauch. The smacking muslim scum are not mentioned until chapter 17 page 203.

I suggest you BUY a copy instead of showing yourself up as being a cheapskate.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:56pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:28am:

Soren wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 12:05am:

The Arab caliphs ordered the translations.

The Jews and the Syriac and Greek-speaking Christians did the work. It is obvious from the references you cite.

Oh, I understand very well why you pluck that 'generally speaking' out of its context.
It is because if you were to include what is written before and after it, you would see that what I have been saying all along is correct.

You are simply not honest.

Why the translations didn't start before? Well, they did. But you need peace and leisure to translate. It was very difficult to come by both while the Muslims were monstering the Levant.
But it was happening in Ireland, far from the madding crowd - and Muslims. Also in Paris - Abelard was prominent there in the 12th century. The University of Bologna (which I had the good fortune to attend briefly) was established in 1088.
The Toledo School of Translation started in the 12th century, when Toledo was re-taken from the Muslims.

The Arabs' role is grossly exaggerated in all this for propaganda purposes and to 'make nice' towards an essentially illiterate and brutal invading force.

If these Arabs had been really that cultured, they couldn't have fallen so far down the sh!thole as they are now. Egypt is the cultural centre of Islam. After more than a thousand years of Islam, it's literacy rate is 72 % (63 % for women). Saudi, filthy rich - 87% (83% for women). Morocco? 56 % for all, 44 % for women. Afghanistan, you ask? 28% literacy for the whole population and 12.6 % for women. Iraq? 78.2% overall, 70.6% for women.
Some civilisation. You bvggers want to dine out forever on some fantasy about 12th century intellectual golden age. Bollocks. The golden age is hugely overstated. And dishonoured. Most Arabs are as primitive as they were when Mohammed found them, 1400 years ago.i

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Karnal on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 1:38am

University of Bologna?

I say, old chap, do you have expertise in salami as well?

Jolly good. Just give me a few slices, please. I need to save some room for your specialty.

Miam miam.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Karnal on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 11:06am

Shurely shome mishtake.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:27pm

Adamant wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:09pm:

I own my copy unlike you who cherry pick steal filch thieve rob alter ignore rewrite kill rape and debauch. The smacking muslim scum are not mentioned until chapter 17 page 203.

Chapter 17 starts on page 169 on my version. I have the 2011 paperback edition.

Either way, the "smacking muslim scum", according to Montesfiore, are the ones who stopped the persecution of the jews and allowed them back in to live in the city. The wiki article you first quoted says exactly this. So I'm not really sure what your beef is. Attacking the people who institutionalised the protection of the jews to live an worship freely in Jerusalem is a very strange way of defending the jews.

Adamant wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:09pm:

I suggest you BUY a copy instead of showing yourself up as being a cheapskate.

I am very confused Adamant - you seem to want to demonstrate both the happy times the jews had under Byzantine rule as well as the evilness of the muslims - yet all the sources you have quoted - including both the wiki article as well as Montefiore clearly attests to both institutionalised Byzantine persecution followed by muslim protection of the jews. Is there something I'm missing?

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:53pm

Soren wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:56pm:

But it was happening in Ireland, far from the madding crowd - and Muslims. Also in Paris - Abelard was prominent there in the 12th century. The University of Bologna (which I had the good fortune to attend briefly) was established in 1088.
The Toledo School of Translation started in the 12th century, when Toledo was re-taken from the Muslims.

I'm sorry Soren, but your source doesn't mention the movements in Ireland or Paris as "initiating the first organized, large-scale translation activity in history" - that is specifically credited to the muslim arabs.

As for anything comparable to the arab translation program, this from your encyclopedia:

Quote:

This unprecedented commitment to translation can be distinguished from any translation activity the world had known before in terms of three factors...

a) Range of source languages...

b) Range of topics and subjects...

c) Most importantly, the translation movement which evolved under Islamic rule was organized and institutionalized. Translation was sponsored and supported by the government and specific institutions, or translation chambers, were set up to initiate and regulate the flow of translations. The first such translation chamber was set up by al-Mansur, the second Abbasid caliph (754-775) and expanded considerably by al-Rashid (786-809) and al-Ma'mun (813-33)

Your argument that the "brutal and illiterate" invaders were merely accidental overseers of a great cultural flowering, and that it all happened in spite of, not because of the direction of the arab rulers, simply has no legs. There is certainly not a hint of that in you encyclopedia - but if you think there is, please point it out to me. I have a pdf copy of the relevant chapter. Please humour me Soren, stop making baseless claims and back them up.

Soren wrote on Jul 5^th, 2013 at 11:56pm:

The Arabs' role is grossly exaggerated in all this for propaganda purposes and to 'make nice' towards an essentially illiterate and brutal invading force.

Your bigotry and willful ignorance on this subject is both despicable and hilarious. Hint: if you really want to propagate this nonsense, best not to reference a source that says the exact opposite. Again:

Quote:

[the arab conquerors] were eager learners. Inspired the richness of the civilizations they were now encountering for the first time, and explicitly encouraged by the Qur'an to seek knowledge wherever it could be found, they began a huge campaign to acquire the learning of the nations under their rule and naturally turned to translation as the means by which the new sources of knowledge could be accessed

Is there anything in that chapter that you can quote that demonstrates this passage was taken out of context, and in truth, the translation program was not driven, inspired, led by the arab rulers?

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Chimp_Logic on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 4:06pm

A question that has a very simple answer.

Lets look at some medical and disease trends with respect to skin cancer shall we?

THe worlds 2nd highest melanoma related skin cancer rate is found in Israel - second only to Australia (non indigenous people statistics only)

Does anybody know why the highest and 2nd highest skin cancer rates in the world are found in Australia and Israel??

Any thoughts?

Any reason why people several hours drive away in occupied Palestine, or Jordan, or Kuwait have far lower skin cancer rates than the general Israeli population?

I wonder what could cause such a spike in skin cancer incidence in Israel and Australia

(another interesting statistic is that Israel (per capita) is the world's highest user of sun screen lotion. What is going on here ladies and gentlemen?)

The important thing to notice in the global skin cancer rate data (below) is that the only nation in the world to come anywhere near Australia and New Zealand is Israel

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 5:44pm

really not sure where you're going with this chimp...

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Frantic on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 7:07pm

Maybe he's making a point about medical care as you look at Canada which has a lower rate than Alaska or Sweden/ norway ;).
Maybe the point is countries with HEALTHY populations that live longer will get a higher skin cancer rate than their neighbours whose avg. age life expectancy is 20+ years less.
Or maybe just trying to be racist and saying euro people get skin cancer and Arabs don't? Pretty hard when 1/2 the Arab population dress like beekeepers when outdoors kind of skews the figures a bit!

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Karnal on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 8:14pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 5:44pm:

really not sure where you're going with this chimp...

Maybe he’s saying they need to be more tinted. Shurely shome mishtake, eh?

Rich tapestry, innit. Have another martini - have two!

Nothing to see here.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by adamant on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 8:37pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 12:27pm:

Chapter 17 starts on page 169 on my version. I have the 2011 paperback edition.

Sorry Gandalf did not know that you had an abridged copy, the one that leaves all that horrible muslim hatred out.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by adamant on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 8:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 5:44pm:

really not sure where you're going with this chimp...

He is a primate Gandalf and has gone ape shiit

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 9:20pm

Adamant wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 8:37pm:

Sorry Gandalf did not know that you had an abridged copy, the one that leaves all that horrible muslim hatred out.

Umm.. No.

Nice try though.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 9:42pm

Look at Islam's intellectual history, Gandy.

They ordered some translations which were carried out by non-Muslims or recent converts. They restricted it all to works that excused or justified Islam - no poetry, no drama, no comedy, no histories. Once the apologetics stuff was done, the whole intellectual enterprise was shut down and has stayed shut down ever since.

Islam is intellectually negligible. It is reactionary and anti-thought at the best of times. It is a closed-minded, oppressive, monstering ideology.

It wants anyone who leaves it killed. How telling is that??? What does that tell you about the mental outlook of Islam?? Kill all who wants to leave Islam.

How reasonable, enlightened and intellectually curious is THAT???i

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Karnal on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 10:27pm

You’ve lost the argument, Sory. I must have read that exact same post of yours at least 50 times. As soon as you bring up the never-ever line, we know you’re done.

The rest is just a long, drawn-out theatrical death. Margot Fontaine with haemorrhoids.

Nuffin’ to see here, folks.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 10:28pm

Soren wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 9:42pm:

Laughable.

Anyway, Soren, keep your head buried in the sand if it gives your life meaning. I can't stop you from insisting on such a revisionist version of history that no one apart from your buddies at jihadwatch and answering-islam take seriously. My only advise is don't make the mistake of attempting to back your version up with actual scholarly research again.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Karnal on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 10:38pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 10:28pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 9:42pm:

Yes, that’s a first for the old boy - scholarly research. He usually just writes the post below.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by freediver on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 9:21am

Chimp it's a bit hard to see the tiny speck on the map, but it looks to me like Israel's skin cancer rate is fairly low (light green).

If this is some kind of attempt to answer the question of where the Israeli Jews really come from, I think you win the prize for the most circuitous answer. This is not some anthropological exercise where we have to guess based on fragments of information. It is actually reasonably well documented where they came from, seeing as most of them came in the last century.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 8:42pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 10:28pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 9:42pm:

It's not laughable.
Islam's intellectual history is cringeworthy. You are stuck in what was forward looking 1000 years ago.
1000 years on, that outlook is utterly backward. Look at any Muslim country. The best ones are leaving Islam out of their political and social system the most. But even those are buggered by any objective standard because they cannot shake Islam completely.
You have contributed to the world precisely nothing for 800 years. Nothing.

That must be a record.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 1:20pm

Soren wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 8:42pm:

It's not laughable.
Islam's intellectual history is cringeworthy.

What exactly is it about initiating the greatest translation program the world had ever seen - that sparked a great scientific and philosophical flowering do you find "cringeworthy"?

Once again, from the encyclopedia you were so eager to quote before:

Quote:

Quote:

the translation movement which evolved under Islamic rule was organized and institutionalized. Translation was sponsored and supported by the government and specific institutions, or translation chambers, were set up to initiate and regulate the flow of translations.

I can certainly see how you would find these inconvenient facts "cringeworthy" if you are attempting to prop up the "mindless, zombie muslim" line.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Baronvonrort on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 5:09pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 1:20pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 8:42pm:

It's not laughable.
Islam's intellectual history is cringeworthy.

When i hear muslims crapping on about the golden age of science which was how many centuries ago it reminds me of those bald fat middle aged men who carry on about how good they were in their youth.

The most recent contributions to science from muslims were how many hundreds of years ago?

If Islamic science was so good why has there been nothing from the Islamic world for the last few hundred years in science?

Australia has bought the Heron remote piloted vehicle (drones) from Israel,do any muslim majority country make aircraft or did they give up after that muslim left a bloodstain on the pavement?

What electronic devices devices have been patented by muslims?none zip zilch?

2 Israelis hold the patent for USB flash drives, how many muslims own USB flash drives while being critical of the yahud?

Your link says arab conquerors, can we use this as evidence of muslims conquering other more advanced societies?

Your link indicates the muslims had fallen behind in the knowledge department and they used conquered cultures to catch up,there has been no conquering by muslims for many hundreds of years could this be why they have fallen behind again?

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Baronvonrort on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 5:12pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 4:06pm:

You should also check out the rates of vitamin D deficiency with this comparison to see the bigger picture.

Why do muslim women suffer from vitamin D deficiency, is the hijab/niqab and body tent the cause?

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 6:31pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 5:09pm:

Your link indicates the muslims had fallen behind in the knowledge department and they used conquered cultures to catch up,there has been no conquering by muslims for many hundreds of years

Evidently we won't be able to add reading comprehension to your many list of talents Baron.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by life_goes_on on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 6:40pm

Where the Israeli jews really came from?

Minsk, Krakow, Pskow, Smolensk, Lwow, Lodz etc...

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by freediver on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 7:55pm

Gandalf struggled over dozens of pages to name a few Islamic contributions to basic science. Eventually he came up with two, neither of them revolutionary. It is pretty well established that the Muslims acquired knowledge that is directly useful and not contradictory to Islam, but left out most of the rest and failed to contribute to basic science in any way that would justify describing it as "a great scientific and philosophical flowering". They were transmitters of knowledge, not contributors. The rise of Islam is perhaps the greatest missed opportunity in the history of science. They had everything they needed for an actual revolution. They came up with nothing.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 8:27pm

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 7:55pm:

Gandalf struggled over dozens of pages to name a few Islamic contributions to basic science.

No, FD - I struggled over dozens of pages trying to get through to you that your claim that islam "stifled" science is absurd and baseless. And I don't need to provide examples of revolutionary contributions to demonstrate this.

freediver wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 7:55pm:

Eventually he came up with two, neither of them revolutionary

Experts disagree with you FD.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by freediver on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 8:32pm

Islam stifles basic science

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1362655638

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 9:29pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 10:27pm:

You’ve lost the argument, Sory.

Don't be ridiculous, PB. You say I have lost the argument when you have nothing to say except that I have lost the argument. You are ready to perform the shahada, PB. You are now stupid enough.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 9:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 1:20pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 8:42pm:

It's not laughable.
Islam's intellectual history is cringeworthy.

[quote]the translation movement which evolved under Islamic rule was organized and institutionalized. Translation was sponsored and supported by the government and specific institutions, or translation chambers, were set up to initiate and regulate the flow of translations.

I can certainly see how you would find these inconvenient facts "cringeworthy" if you are attempting to prop up the "mindless, zombie muslim" line.[/quote]

The translation movement was an attempt to lend Islam a classical intellectual patina. That is why it was a very selective enterprise, focusing on apologetics and texts that could b interpreted as foreshadowing or explaining Islam. Zero interest in non-apologetics.
Also, the the translators were overwhelmingly non-Arabs. The Arabs, being told that Allah spoke Arabic, had little incentive to learn inferior languages. So they didn't. The exceptions simply prove the rule. My earlier post shows that the greatest translators were not Arabs.

If your thesis were true - that the Arabs were eager learners - there would not have been an 800 year long closing of the Arab/Islamic mind. But there was.

The reality is that all the intellectual labour claimed by Islam has been largely performed by its conquered peoples -Christians and Jews.

Look at the Ottomans. Absolutely rules, spreading like topsy - but intellectually negligible. Oriental - bloated, lazy and complacent.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 9:51pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 10:28pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 9:42pm:

You are not saying anything concrete, just silly puffery and nervous preening.
And every time you do that I know I have nailed you. Here's the concrete stuff you should address, but are avoiding:

They ordered some translations which were carried out by non-Muslims or recent converts. They restricted it all to works that excused or justified Islam - no poetry, no drama, no comedy, no histories. Once the apologetics stuff was done, the whole intellectual enterprise was shut down and has stayed shut down ever since.

Show us what Greek poetry or drama or political tract an Arab translated - and I will show you the exception that proves my rule.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Karnal on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 9:54pm

Soren wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 9:29pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 10:27pm:

You’ve lost the argument, Sory.

Don't be ridiculous, PB. You say I have lost the argument when you have nothing to say except that I have lost the argument.

Old boy, you never say anything but.

Sorry, never ever. Ever.

As every schoolboy knows.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 9:59pm

You are not addressing any of the points I have made. Instead, you carp and nag and sneer.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Karnal on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:07pm

Soren wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 9:51pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 10:28pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 9:42pm:

Why should you define what Arab scholars in the Middle Ages should have chosen to read?

And who cares if translations were done by non-Muslims or recent converts? You’re a Kraut, but most of what you use is made by Chinky Chonks.

You’ve made the same post three times, old boy. You’re spent.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Karnal on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:09pm

Soren wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 9:59pm:

You are not addressing any of the points I have made. Instead, you carp and nag and sneer.

And this, coming from the Alan Jones of sneer.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:34pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:09pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 9:59pm:

You are not addressing any of the points I have made. Instead, you carp and nag and sneer.

And this, coming from the Alan Jones of sneer.

You are still not making any substantial arguments. You are certainly not addressing the points I have made because you have no answer to them.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:37pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:07pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 9:51pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 10:28pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 6^th, 2013 at 9:42pm:

:D
So now it's about their liberal democratic choice as to what to read?!?
Who, apart from you, Gandy and SOB, would credit your stupid attempt to make it a matter of choice?

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:38pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:09pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 9:59pm:

You are not addressing any of the points I have made. Instead, you carp and nag and sneer.

And this, coming from the Alan Jones of sneer.

;D

'Alan Jones of sneer'??

;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:39pm

Soren wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 9:39pm:

Also, the the translators were overwhelmingly non-Arabs. The Arabs, being told that Allah spoke Arabic, had little incentive to learn inferior languages. So they didn't. The exceptions simply prove the rule. My earlier post shows that the greatest translators were not Arabs.

Your earlier post showed nothing of the sort - unless you think plucking out 4 or 5 of the many hundreds of translators and pointing out they were not arab somehow proves something. Many people would consider Al-Kindi or the Banu-Musa brothers to be the greatest translators, and they were arab.

But what does it matter? We're talking about the supposed anti-intellectual spirit of islam, not the arabs. And I feel like I need to point out the obvious - that when the arab-muslims conquered great swathes of territory in the middle and near east, they instantly became a racial minority of the empire. There were now Persians, Syrians, jews etc, many of whom joined the new translation/intellectual movement. Wouldn't it be expected that most of them would be non-arab? The relevant point though is that it was absolutely an arab-muslim inspired movement, and without question the majority of translators were muslim - not 100% jewish/christian or other non-muslim as you and adamant so foolishly claimed earlier.

Soren wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 9:39pm:

If your thesis were true - that the Arabs were eager learners - there would not have been an 800 year long closing of the Arab/Islamic mind. But there was.

I have acknowledged repeatedly that islamic intellectual pursuits basically died after the 13th century. The overrunning and destruction of the greatest cultural and intellectual hub of the world - plus the once largest city of the world - Baghdad, by the Mongols, being a major contributing factor. But this decline doesn't render 500 years of intellectual flowering before that suddenly untrue.

Soren wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 9:51pm:

They ordered some translations which were carried out by non-Muslims or recent converts. They restricted it all to works that excused or justified Islam - no poetry, no drama, no comedy, no histories. Once the apologetics stuff was done, the whole intellectual enterprise was shut down and has stayed shut down ever since.

This is simply ignorance Soren. They translated the greatest Greek philosophies, most of which fundamentally disagreed with islamic doctrine. Anyone who knows anything about the golden age knows that one of the defining characteristics was the remarkable tolerance for the disseminating of philosophical ideas that directly opposed the quran and/or the teachings of the prophet.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 9:20pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:39pm:

Anyone who knows anything about the golden age knows that one of the defining characteristics was the remarkable tolerance for the disseminating of philosophical ideas that directly opposed the quran and/or the teachings of the prophet.

Which is one of the main reasons that it came to a fairly abrupt end, in the name of... er... Islam. The closing of minds has been in the ascendancy in Islam for 800 years. It is still the dominant force.

- You can't be critical of Islam or Mohammed
- you can't leave Islam.
- you can't offer any textual or historical/linguistic analysis of the Koran
- you still haven't digested the shia/sunni division, let alone all the other different versions of Islam. Psychologically, you are all repressed, unable to deal with different opinions.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Karnal on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 9:35pm

Soren wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 9:20pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:39pm:

Never ever. Ever.

The old boy’s never happier than when he’s fantasizing about a nice bit of repression. Marvellous stuff.

Makes the world go round, dunnit.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 9:40pm

Soren wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 9:20pm:

If you call 500 years an "abrupt end"....

Soren, every time I refute your bvllshit claims about islam's closed mind during the golden age, your only rejoinder is to rattle on about the muslim world's closed mind since the golden age - a point which no one disagrees on.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 9:42pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 9:20pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:39pm:

Never ever. Ever.

The old boy’s never happier than when he’s fantasizing about a nice bit of repression. Marvellous stuff.

Makes the world go round, dunnit.

:D
Look who's talking - a Paki homo with Nam vetaran pretension and a Bradford Poly Cert III in Foucauldian post-colonial identity studies.
Talk about having all the fvckn mental diseases and disorders.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Karnal on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 10:00pm

Soren wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 9:42pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 9:20pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:39pm:

Never ever. Ever.

The old boy’s never happier than when he’s fantasizing about a nice bit of repression. Marvellous stuff.

Makes the world go round, dunnit.

A lurking, closet-dwelling cheese dealer wiith a penchant for stool.

And Ahmed’s the repressed one.

The old dear doesn’t know any Muslims. He hears about them on the radio.

Dastardly, eh?

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 10:34pm

Look who's talking - a limp-wristed Paki homo with Nam vetaran pretension and a Bradford Poly Cert III in Foucauldian post-colonial identity studies.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Karnal on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 11:18pm

Soren wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 10:34pm:

Look who's talking - a limp-wristed Paki homo with Nam vetaran pretension and a Bradford Poly Cert III in Foucauldian post-colonial identity studies.

Yes, so you just said. Now stop putting your stools back in the fridge.

They congeal.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by adamant on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 9:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 4^th, 2013 at 11:02pm:

What exactly was your point about the book again? Have you even read it?

I have read it Gandalf, I would observe that most people that do not believe in a supreme "Diety" questions the status of ones own knowledge. Unlike a certain cult that only wishes to maim kill and slaughter those that do not agree with its ideologey.

I am in constant question mode on all facets of being!

You have admitted owning Sebags book. Answer the question "Why did the only prophet of islam pray to the JEWS!

P/S Been on hols and am up north at the mo but "I WILL BE BACK"

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 10:13pm

Adamant wrote on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 9:39pm:

Answer the question "Why did the only prophet of islam pray to the JEWS!

I've been asked this several times - always by people who think they are disproving something, or hurling some great insult at me. I never have worked it out.

First thing that you need to understand is that muslims do not "pray to" any persons or object - they pray to God and God alone. What you are really asking is why did muslims pray in the direction of Jerusalem (nb - thats Jerusalem *NOT* "the Jews"). The answer as far as I'm concerned is rather immaterial - since whichever direction they pray, it is always going to be *TO* and *FOR* God. But since you asked, my understanding is that facing Jerusalem was testament to islam's respect for judaism, and acknowledgement that judaism is islam's closest relative. muslims follow the same prophets as jews, and Jerusalem is recognised as the holy "capital" (if you like) of the one true religion started by Abraham and his Israelite descendants. Muhammad himself, according to islamic tradition, descended to heaven from Jerusalem. Even the Quran recognises jews as the first muslims.

So fair enough, I see nothing wrong with praying towards Jerusalem. Over time though, Mecca and the Kabaa became the symbol of islam, especially with the annual pilgramage that every muslim is obliged to carry out at least once in their lifetime. Thus it was only natural for the muslims to start turning their heads to the Kabaa for their prayers.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 11:03pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 9:40pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 9:20pm:

Gandy, Islam was a dominant force for 7 of those 8 centuries since the golden age in the territories it commanded.
Yet it produced bugger all. Illiteracy is widespread in Muslim countries - in the 21st century. Where is the fvckn golden age of translation of the 11-13th centuries for those Muslims, alive today, yet can't even read and write.

That is why the 200 years of intellectual openness is so atypical of Islam. But you bvggers keep bringing it up as if it outshone the stagnation and backwardness and fanatic illiteracy.

It doesn't.

Your people are backward now. Are you telling them it's OK because 800 years ago they weren't? What are you doing about Muslim backwardness and ignorance? Other than argue with me about it.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 11:05pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 11:18pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 9^th, 2013 at 10:34pm:

Look who's talking - a limp-wristed Paki homo with Nam vetaran pretension and a Bradford Poly Cert III in Foucauldian post-colonial identity studies.

Yes, so you just said. Now stop putting your stools back in the fridge.

They congeal.

Stop fapping, dad. You're not still only in Saigon any more.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 11:29pm

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 11:03pm:

That is why the 200 years of intellectual openness is so atypical of Islam. But you bvggers keep bringing it up as if it outshone the stagnation and backwardness and fanatic illiteracy.

Firstly, it was 500 years - not 200.

But what do you want me to say? Muslim suck today, and they have sucked intellectually for many centuries - of course they do - I'm not trying to shy away from that.

The reason "we bvggers" keep bringing it up is because you bvggers keep trying to airbrush it out of history. Thats how this discussion started remember? You claiming that big bad backward islam had nothing to do with the great flourishing translation and scientific revolution of the 8th - 13th century. Now that thats been thoroughly disproved (by your own source I might add), you change tack and start focusing on the post golden-age era - and inexplicably claiming what you were so keen on debating about before, is suddenly irrelevant now.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 12:16am

It's not relevant what you did 800 years ago, or only very marginally. What's relevant is what you are doing now. Now you are buggered thanks to your consistent efforts - but you want to be excused on the grounds that you were not buggered 800 years ago.

Ridiculous. I didn't live 800 years ago, nor you. By arguing with me you make it look as if you were buggered by me, for 800 years. But you have been buggered by yourselves for 800 long years.

You are just deflecting from your responsibility by arguing with me, the Jews, the Americans, everyone. But it is you who have buggered yourselves for the last 800 years.
What has happened for the last 800 years? And how will you - will you? - change whatever it was that made you bugger yourselves and everyone you have come into contact with for 800 years?

And don't look at me, it is YOUR culture and your responsibility. What are you doing about it?

(I am speaking French for the sake of brevity, you understand, not out of personal malice.)

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Karnal on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 1:20am

Ah, but it is relevant, old chap. Never ever, remember? Ever.

All those words you posted. Memories.

Alas, in 800 years people will be saying never ever too. And you’ll be able to pull up your last post and say, you see? An old boy intellectual flowering. A faecal golden age. A cultural and philosophical fapping.

You can tell them all about your days at the University of Balonia and your marvellous stool recipes and all your enlightened, progressive work on this board and be proud of the fine contribution you’ve made to this great moment in history.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 9:41am

Soren wrote on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 12:16am:

Two points:

1. You brought it up first. *YOU* were the one claiming the muslims deserve no credit for the golden age. Relevant or not, I'm going to set the record straight when presented with such blatant untruths. Especially when your own evidence says what you claim is complete rubbish. Here's some advise, if you think something is irrelevant to the discussion, don't bring it up - and especially don't make claims about it that simply must be refuted.

2. I think it is important to acknowledge the achievements of the past as a way of addressing the problems of the present. Its proof that if it could be done before, it can be done again. It counters prevailing myths (held by both muslims and non-muslims) that work against the chances of a future revival - like the belief that islam is inherently against learning and exploring new ideas.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Karnal on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 10:13am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 9:41am:

Soren wrote on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 12:16am:

Yes - let's sum up the old boy's position, shall we?

- The Muselman is backward and inferior now because he's always been backward and inferior. Always. Absolutely. On stilts.
- Okay, so he mightn't have always been backward and inferior, but he is now, and that's the important thing.
- The Muselman bases his religion on lies. Of course he's backward and inferior. His whole worldview is based on a mirage.
- Yes, the old boy might have told a few porkies too, but it was the Muselman's fault. Lie with dogs and you get fleas, innit.
- The Muselman can't reform or mend his ways. It'll never happen. Never ever.
- Well, sure he's giving it a go now, but it'll never work. Islam and liberal democracy are incompatible.
- Okay, so it might work in some places, but look at Pakeestan.
- Mainstream Islam is essentially violent. Always. Absolutely. If they were keen on eradicating terrorism, they'd speak out against it. They never do this. Never ever.
- Oh yes, a few imams might come out to condemn protests and beheading signs, but why don't they stop it?
- Okay, so they might have stopped it on that one occasion, but why didn't they stop it before?
- Muslims cut and run. Instead of reforming their own societies and getting rid of their dictators, they move to the West. If they were so keen on democracy, they'd go back home and fight for it.
- Okay, so many do this, but they're not fighting for democracy, they're fighting for theocracy.
- Okay, so they might be fighting for democracy and not theocracy, but the theocrats will win every time.
- Okay, so the mullahs might not have won this time, but democracy will fail before long. It has to. Muslims want theocracies.
- Right, so they may not actually want theocracies, but they'll get them. Maybe not yet, but soon. Never ever, remember?
- Their backwardness and inferiority goes back to their history. They were always backward and inferior. Always. Absolutely.
- Okay, so they ruled civilization for a few hundred years while the West went through the Dark Ages. So what? It was an aberration. The Muselman is backward and inferior now because he's always been backward and inferior. Always. Absolutely. On stilts.

Etc, etc, etc.

This is the old boy game, a game that has been going on here for years. It consists of one axiom: always, absolutely, never ever. You can point our the inconsistency in such a view, but you're always returned to this point. The Muselman will always be backward and inferior because he has always been backward and inferior, and that's just the way it is.

But it isn't.

It is. The old boy said so.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by gandalf on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 10:25am

;D ;D yup, bout sums it up...

Now brace yourself while the old boy returns fire with a clever derogatory quip about limp wristed Paki homos. At which point he will have won the debate. On stilts.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 5:31pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 10:13am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 9:41am:

Soren wrote on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 12:16am:

Oh! of course!! I forgot!! Islam has nuffin' to do wiv nuffin'.

It's the most amazingly ineffective and impotent religion in history. It has absolutely zero impact on the people and societies that follow it. Thanks for reminding me.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by freediver on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 8:19pm

Not quite right Soren. When Islam was conquering all and helping non-Muslims to live in prosperity (notwithstanding the occasional slaughter of course), then Islam was very effective. When it started to shrink and Islam imported rather than exported the violence and oppression, that was because people strayed from Islam. They have suffered for 800 years because they didn't do it properly.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by freediver on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 8:21pm

True Colours wrote on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 12:37pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2013 at 10:33pm:

From the onset of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War until the early 1970s, 800,000–1,000,000 Jews left, fled, or were expelled from their homes in Arab countries; 260,000 of them reached Israel between 1948 and 1951 and amounted for 56% of the total immigration to the newly founded State of Israel.[2] 600,000 Jews from Arab and Muslim countries had reached Israel by 1972.[3][4][5] By the Yom Kippur War of 1973, most of the Jewish communities throughout the Arab World, as well as Pakistan and Afghanistan, were practically non-existent.

I suggest that you look for the documentary "how zionists expelled jews from iraq" on youtube. It explains how Israeli Mossad operatives bombed Iraqi Jewish in order to scare the Iraqi Jews into leaving Iraq. The Zionists were desperate to increase the Israeli population.

LOL, those scheming Jews really were to blame after all.

Title: Re: Where the Israeil Jews really came from
Post by Soren on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 10:31pm

freediver wrote on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 8:19pm:

Thanks. Correction:
When it's done right, Islam has nuffin' to do wiv nuffin' .

Pfffeewhh.... I almost got it wrong.