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http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl Member Run Boards >> Islam >> Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1374893194 Message started by Yadda on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 12:46pm

Title: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 12:46pm

Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practising one

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 26^th, 2013 at 9:06pm:

Yadda ~ I believe it's possible for new schisms to occur amongst the Islamic congregation just as happened with Sunni, Sh'ia, Wahhabi, etc.

Check this out ... Pro-Western Muslims.

These are good people. They are sick of being tarred with the same brush as the delinquents who do the bombings and the hate-speech.

These people genuinely want to become Muslims who subscribe only to the best instructions and teachings of their faith that are acceptable to Western values.

More strength to them I say.

These people are very bravely organising a protest against the Muslim hardliners who want Sharia Law to be legalised in the UK. It takes guts and sincerity to challenge the Muslim hardliners.

They deserve our respect and good wishes.

Sorry Herbert,

IMO, these people are either, deluded, or, they are a part of a covert moslem program to deflect popular criticism [in the broader community] of ISLAM, away from all moslems.

Herbert,

Western Democracy and ISLAM each have [conflicting] laws, and each system cannot, can never, co-exist with the other.
For any person to declare that they are a moslem, is to declare their support for ISLAM - AND SUPPORT FOR ITS TENETS AND ITS SYSTEM OF LAWS, SHARIA LAW.

Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.

I know that some moslems [resident in the West] have claimed that they oppose the introduction of Sharia law [in the nation where they reside].
If that is true, AND, if those people claim to be moslems, then i ask this question; In what sense are these people moslems ?

Is it because those people have decided, to >> call << themselves moslems ?

The truth is that it is ISLAM itself [and ISLAM alone], that has always reserved to itself, the right to define who is a moslem [and who is not a moslem!].

Those people, wayward moslems, who wish to hang onto the 'community' of being a moslem, [while portraying themselves as moslems] who oppose the tenets and laws of ISLAM, are persons who, imo, are still defending, and who are trying to defend, the 'nicer' ideals of ISLAM.
And in that, they >> are << defending the name of ISLAM in this world [and, and in that, they are giving comfort to REAL moslems].
They are persons who, in some perverse personal desire to hang on to 'community', are defending their 'imaginings' of what ISLAM could be [i.e. something 'nice'], if only their mainstream moslem brothers would listen, to them!
But ISLAM cannot reformed, or be nice, ever!
That is an impossible illusion.
Why so ?
Because ISLAM is ISLAM, and a moslem [ultimately], is a moslem [i.e. 'a follower of Islam'].

“There is no radical islam–there is only islam.”
Tayyip Erdogan

Those persons who wish to remain as members of their community, and to refer to themselves as 'moslems', persons who imagine that they can 'struggle' for a nicer ISLAM, need to grow a set, and they need to choose - TO CHOOSE TO ABANDON ISLAM, to separate themselves from ISLAM.

Q.
Do those 'nice' moslems imagine that they can make a silk purse out of a sows ear ?

It is not possible to redeem ISLAM - unless large sections of the Koran can be jettisoned.

Ask a moslem, about the sanctity and the integrity of the Koran!!

To a [devout] moslem, the Koran is inerrant, and in its entirety the Koran is regarded by all moslems as the uncorrupted word of Allah !!

MORE....

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 12:47pm

CONTINUED FROM LAST POST....

Quote:

“The ‘moderate Islam’ concept is wrong. The word ‘Islam’ is a simple word – it is only Islam. If you say ‘moderate Islam,’ then an alternative is created, and that is ‘immoderate Islam.’ I cannot accept such a concept as a Muslim.”

Prime Minister of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdo?an

As Erdoan said, there is no moderate ISLAM. There is no extreme ISLAM. ISLAM is ISLAM.

http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/05/where-is-the-outrage-from-alleged-moderate-muslims/

Quote:

Western policies are to blame, says Livingstone
By Andrew Sparrow, Political Correspondent
20/07/2005
Ken Livingstone yesterday blamed western policies for contributing to the spread of the extremist beliefs that inspired the London bombers.
......In a separate move, Anjem Choudary, the UK leader of the militant Islamist group al-Muhajiroun, interviewed for BBC Radio 4's Today programme said.....
"The British Government wants to...........divide the Muslim community into moderates and extremists, whereas this classification doesn't exist in Islam," he said.
"Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practising one....."

Google;
ANJEM "Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practising one"

As far as [ISLAM and] devout moslems are concerned, being a moslem, is like being pregnant, YOU EITHER ARE, OR, YOU ARE NOT!

AND, ISLAMIC law makes it clear that those who oppose ANY part of the tenets and laws of ISLAM - ARE NOT MOSLEMS.iQuote:

quiltgal
Sep. 13, 2011 at 10:02am

In her essay, “The Nature of Governments,” Ayn Rand deals with your very good point: That having 2 sets of laws in the same geographical area is absurd. She calls it the theory of “competing governments.” She says the proponents of this theory declare that “since competition is so beneficial to business, it should also be applied to government…and there should be a number of different governments in the same geographical area, competing for the allegiance of individual citizens, with every citizen free to ‘shop’ and to patronize whatever government he chooses.” She then gives an example of its implementation and makes it easy to see that in practice this theory is completely unworkable and would lead to anarchy.

You are right: American law and Sharia law are not the same and cannot co-exist within the same government.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011/09/13/muslim-group-seeks-to-ban-sharia-law-in-america/

888888

Herbert,

Those 'moslems' [who in oppose ISLAM!!!] may be genuinely good people. [in opposing Sharia law, they are opposing ISLAM! ...and they still want to refer to themselves, as moslems ?]

But if they are genuinely good people, they are deluded.

ISLAM is an un-reformable, vicious, deceitful, wicked and evil, death cult.

ISLAM cannot be reformed [....without moslems being willing to 'jettison' much of the Koran].

+++

2 Corinthians 6:16
.....as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 1:00pm

moses is correct, imo.

The Usual Suspects ~ (copyright Nicole Page)
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1366856138/260#260

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 1:30pm

Yadda wrote on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 12:46pm:

Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practising one

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 26^th, 2013 at 9:06pm:

Sorry Herbert,

IMO, these people are either, deluded,

or, they are a part of a covert moslem program to deflect popular criticism [in the broader community] of ISLAM, away from all moslems.

Herbert,

FOR EXAMPLE;

Now that such a group of moslems exists within our own community [claiming to be 'moderate' and 'nice' moslems who believe in and support pluralism],...

NOW, any moslem in our community, that we may challenge about his views as a moslem, can now claim to be aligned with the views of such a group.

i.e.
The existence of groups of moslems such as this, just lays us open to further widespread lies and deception from all moslems in our communities - while they, as individual moslems, are free to go about, surreptitiously, seeking ways to undermine our broader community and its institutions.

They look like moslems to me!!

http://www.seculardemocracy.org/

+++

Herbert,

I cannot bring myself to align myself with a group of people like this.

If they are sincere, these 'moslems' would denounce ISLAM, and abandon it, imo.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by shockresist on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 3:14pm

If People where sincere, they would abandon judaism and christinaity and join islam.

Jesus predicted the coming of Mohamed as mentioned in the bible.

John 16:7-13 :
" But I tell you the truth, It is better for you that I should go away; for if I do not away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I should go, I will send him to you.

And Again jesus didn't complete his mission and he only came with part of the truth, because as he mentions concerning the coming of Mohamed,

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you John 14:26

And the Koran mentions jesus 25 times, again reminded us that islam spoke highly of jesus.

No such thing called the trinity exists in the old or new testament, not even three gods in one is mentioned. Trinity is a church made phenomenon which is used to deceive man kind.

Jesus was a muslim and a prophet just like prophets before him, be it Abraham, moses or adam.

The gospels refer to jesus as a prophet as seen many many cases like verse luke 7:16 and is mentioned as prophet of Nazareth. matt- 21:11

Jesus repeatedly called for one God as did prophet Mohamed,

1. Worship the lord your god, and serve him only-matthew

2.Hear O Israel, the lord, our lord is one lord- Mark

3.No-one has ever seen god-John

4.Now this is life eternal, that they know you, the only true god, and jesus whom you have sent-John

5.Has not the one god made and sustained for us the spirit of life-Malachi

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by shockresist on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 3:19pm

Jesus himself asked God's help and said. "I by my own myself can do nothing".. So I rather say the GOD that Jesus prayed to is with me than his slave.. Matthew 26:39 "Jesus fell on his face and prayed to HIS GOD"...Hebrew 5:7 he prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death.

John 8:28 Jesus said "I by my own myself can do nothing"

John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"

Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, butonly the Father."

Matthew 26:39 "Jesus fell on his face and prayed to HIS GOD"

There's hundreds upon hundreds of these showcasing Jesus is not God and depended on God, prayed to God, cried to God, etc...

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by shockresist on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 3:33pm

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by freediver on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 3:49pm

The heart of Islam:

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by True Colours on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 5:21pm

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 3:49pm:

The heart of Islam:

Can a Muslim buy a house in the Vatican City?

Is this the true face of Judaism:

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by freediver on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 5:33pm

You can't buy a house if no-one is willing to sell to you.

But you can visit vatican city as far as I know. You can even visit Israel. Muslims are the only ones who segregate an entire city on religious grounds.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by True Colours on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 5:49pm

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 5:33pm:

You can't buy a house if no-one is willing to sell to you.

But you can visit vatican city as far as I know...

The Quran only forbids non-Muslims to be allowed near the Holy Mosque in Mecca.

The Saudi Government has extended this to the whole city of Mecca.

Islam and Saudi Government are not the same thing.

Many Islamic scholars have said that Islam allows non-Muslims to visit Mecca.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by freediver on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 5:54pm

Muhammed 'prophesied' that one of his companions would expel all non-Muslims from the Arabian peninsula. He managed to get rid of a fair chunk of them - always the fault of the non-Muslim of course.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by adamant on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 6:04pm

shockresist wrote on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 3:14pm:

If People where sincere, they would abandon judaism and christinaity and join islam

No they would abandon islam and all peoples on the planet would be happy for them!

shockresist wrote on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 3:14pm:

Jesus predicted the coming of Mohamed as mentioned in the bible

No he did not ever this is just another stinking muslim lie!

shockresist wrote on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 3:14pm:

And the Koran mentions jesus 25 times, again reminded us that islam spoke highly of jesus

Well it would as it is a reference point for a man of ill repute who was born 600 years later and wished to cash on his own filthy cult, which by the way is one of the most disgusting ever created by man,

True Colours wrote on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 5:21pm:

Can a Muslim buy a house in the Vatican City

Can we have Christendom back the Holiest of Holies. the one Stole from Christians, can we take it back from the Turkish killers the muslim murderers?

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by moses on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 6:36pm

I see the muslims are trying to claim the Holy Spirit of Judiasm and Christianity as somehow signifying a thief, liar, pedophile, rapist, torturer and mass murderer muhammad, as the intended meaning.

Well to me that is just another muslim lie.

The HOLY SPIRIT EXISTED AT CREATION

Quote:

Genesis1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

THE HOLY SPIRIT ENTERED CHRIST AT BAPTISM

Quote:

Matthew3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

GOD RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD,THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS AVAILABLE TO BELIEVERS

Quote:

Romans8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

THE HOLY SPIRIT ENABLES BELIEVERS IN CHRIST'S SALVATION TO RECEIVE GIFTS

Quote:

1 Corinthians12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into oneSpirit.

12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

SPIRIT IS SPIRIT / FLESH IS FLESH

Quote:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the [b]Spirit is spirit.

THE SPIRIT WILL COMFORT CHRISTIANS

Quote:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

GRACE OF CHRIST,LOVE OF GOD, FELLOWSHIP OF HOLY SPIRIT BONDS CHRISTIANITY

Quote:

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

CHRIST HAS SENT THE HOLY SPIRIT TO CHRISTIANS ON EARTH

Quote:

Acts2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 7:00pm

shockresist wrote on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 3:14pm:

If People where sincere, they would abandon judaism and christinaity and join islam.

Jesus predicted the coming of Mohamed as mentioned in the bible.

No he didn't.i
Quote:

John 16:7-13 :
" But I tell you the truth, It is better for you that I should go away; for if I do not away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I should go, I will send him to you.

And Again jesus didn't complete his mission and he only came with part of the truth, because as he mentions concerning the coming of Mohamed,

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you John 14:26

And the Koran mentions jesus 25 times, again reminded us that islam spoke highly of jesus.

No such thing called the trinity exists in the old or new testament, not even three gods in one is mentioned. Trinity is a church made phenomenon which is used to deceive man kind.

Jesus was a muslim and a prophet just like prophets before him, be it Abraham, moses or adam.

The gospels refer to jesus as a prophet as seen many many cases like verse luke 7:16 and is mentioned as prophet of Nazareth. matt- 21:11

Jesus repeatedly called for one God as did prophet Mohamed,

1. Worship the lord your god, and serve him only-matthew

2.Hear O Israel, the lord, our lord is one lord- Mark

3.No-one has ever seen god-John

4.Now this is life eternal, that they know you, the only true god, and jesus whom you have sent-John

5.Has not the one god made and sustained for us the spirit of life-Malachi

Poppycock.

Moslem poppycock [falsehood].

+++

Acts 3:12
And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this?....
....
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Luke 24:25
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.i
shockresist,

I do NOT worship a three God 'trinity'.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

John 14:8
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 7:18pm

shockresist wrote on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 3:19pm:

Jesus Christ was a man.

The essence that is God, took the form of a man.

Matthew 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

+++

Scripture tells us that >> the God of creation << also appeared to Abraham, as a man.

shockresist,

If i worship a man [Jesus]...

Did Abraham worship a man too ?

Because the Bible records that the LORD God appeared as a man [with two companions], to [biblical] Abraham...

Genesis 18:1
And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

shockresist,

I do not believe that God is a man.

God is not a man, but scripture says that God's feet were washed by Abraham's water, and that God ate Abraham's meat, and that God appeared as a man, to Abraham.

shockresist,

If God, is God [the creator], can he manifest himself [as he pleases], within his own creation ???

The Bible [OT] says that our creator has manifested himself, many times, and in many differing forms.

And further, God [the creator] in scripture says, that we [mankind], are his created 'children'.

Deuteronomy 32:19
And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

Isaiah 1:2
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

Jeremiah 4:22
For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

Acts 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

But shockresist, YOUR religion, ISLAM, commands you [and every moslem] to murder me [i.e. a person like myself].

And YOUR religion, ISLAM, is murdering people like me, every day.

shockresist,

Clearly, you [and all moslems] do not fear God [do not fear God's righteousness].

That, is the only conclusion that i can draw.

On your own head be it.

shockresist,

This rebuke was directed to the Jews, but it could equally apply to all moslems....

Romans 10:2
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by shockresist on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 9:15pm

Yadda wrote on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 12:46pm:

Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practising one

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 26^th, 2013 at 9:06pm:

Your absolutely right again Yadda.

The Koran is the uncorrupted unchanged word of God.

If I got a lay person who had never heard about christianity or islam and presented them the bible and the Koran, and told them the Koran is unchanged or unaltered for 1400 years, or you got the bible which has been modified, changed, altered, different versions, contradictions and full of mistakes.

What book do you reckon someone would choose?

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by shockresist on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 9:23pm

moses wrote on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 6:36pm:

Genesis1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

THE HOLY SPIRIT ENTERED CHRIST AT BAPTISM
[quote]Matthew3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

GOD RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD,THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS AVAILABLE TO BELIEVERS

Quote:

THE HOLY SPIRIT ENABLES BELIEVERS IN CHRIST'S SALVATION TO RECEIVE GIFTS

Quote:

SPIRIT IS SPIRIT / FLESH IS FLESH

Quote:

THE SPIRIT WILL COMFORT CHRISTIANS

Quote:

GRACE OF CHRIST,LOVE OF GOD, FELLOWSHIP OF HOLY SPIRIT BONDS CHRISTIANITY

Quote:

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

CHRIST HAS SENT THE HOLY SPIRIT TO CHRISTIANS ON EARTH

Quote:

It seems very clear that the SPIRIT is a spiritual / mental state of being. The SPIRIT OF GOD gives mental / spectral comfort and counseling to believers in the absence of the physical God.

There is nothing to show that it refers to a physical man, who in any case was nothing more than human filth, in the light of, Judaeo Christian religious ethos.

Why are muslims liars all the time?[/quote]

But again jesus didn't come for the Christians and didn't come for all of humanity.

Jesus didnt care about everybody.

Jesus only came to the jewish tribes, not the whole world to be followed,

Matthew 10:5-6

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not,But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And he didnt care about everybody, because again he came only to help the jews,

Matthew 15:22-26

And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by True Colours on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 1:21am

This must be the verse that inspired the Christian massacres throughout history:

Quote:

[Jesus said]“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the way of the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the rabbis and priests, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:17-20

Quote:

‘You shall therefore keep all My statutes and all My judgments,
Leviticus 20:22

Quote:

whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
James 2:10

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.
Deuteronomy 17:12

Quote:

[Jesus said:] "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."
Matthew 10:34-8

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 1:45am

shockresist wrote on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 9:15pm:

Your absolutely right again Yadda.

The Koran is the uncorrupted unchanged word of God.

If I got a lay person who had never heard about christianity or islam and presented them the bible and the Koran, and told them the Koran is unchanged or unaltered for 1400 years,

Well, that is a lie. [.......pssst! he is a, MOSLEM.]

shockresist,

It is easy to prove that that is a lie, ........errr, to any rational person.

The Koran is a fabricated, manufactured document.

The Sana'a mosque manuscripts prove that the Koran is a fabricated document.

That you, a moslem, refuse to acknowledge the evidence that has been uncovered, proving that the Koran is a fabricated document, is not unusual, nor unexpected.

Google;
Quranic Manuscripts Sanai

Quote:

.....or you got the bible which has been modified, changed, altered, different versions, contradictions and full of mistakes.

I will concede, that the Bible is 'man made'.

And God inspired!

But unfortunately for moslems, the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, go quite a way to proving the integrity of the O.T. Jewish Bible...

Google;
dead sea scrolls, biblical integrity

Dictionary;
integrity = =
1 the quality of having strong moral principles.
2 the state of being whole. the condition of being unified or sound in construction. internal consistency or lack of corruption in electronic data.i

Quote:

What book do you reckon someone would choose?

I have read the O.T & N.T. Bible [KJV] through cover to cover, and i have read much of the Koran.

IMO, it is a case of chalk and cheese.

And imo, the Koran is the chalk.

And believe me the Koran [by comparison], is mostly a lot of boastful, unstructured, largely violent, gibberish!

But the Koran makes perfect sense to moslem clerics [they claim!].

If you don't believe me [about the gibberish claim], i encourage anyone, to read the Koran for yourself and see [BEFORE YOU CONVERT] !

And, i wish that many more moslems would read the Koran for themselves, instead of allowing themselves to be 'instructed' by clerics!

The Koran is set out in an unstructured format, without any narrative structure, without any sequential structure, to present context.

The 'structure' of the Koran is totally unlike most of the books of the OT Bible.

In contrast, almost all of the books of the OT Bible have a sequential, narrative, structure.i
+++

Following ISLAM, causes mental illness and inspires criminal behaviour, imo.

Following ISLAM, causes a man to justify criminal behaviour, imo.

Studying Christianity, and studying Jesus message, causes mental health.

Seeking the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, causes mental health.

Psalms 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

Psalms 40:8
I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Psalms 25:8
Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
9 The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
10 All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.
11 For thy name's sake, O LORD, pardon mine iniquity; for it is great.
12 What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.
13 His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.
14 The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 1:53am

Yadda wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 1:45am:

No excuse, it is available online.

And the Koran starts out on its 1st page, so, so, promising....

http://quran.com/1/1

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by shockresist on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 8:48am

Yadda wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 1:53am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 1:45am:

No excuse, it is available online.

And the Koran starts out on its 1st page, so, so, promising....

http://quran.com/1/1

Yep the Koran starts so Beautiful.The Koran is from God and we are just affirming the beauty of the God of creator.

How beautiful a statement to start a beautiful book.

And right from the start in the Christian bible on the very first page there is a contradiction.

Page one people, hear me out.

Genesis 1:5

God created light and morning and evening on the first day of creation.

Then genesis 1:14

God created the moon, sun and the stars of the fourth day.

How could there be light and morning and evening on the forst day when the sources of light were created three days later.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Herbert on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 9:21am

True Colours wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 1:21am:

This must be the verse that inspired the Christian massacres throughout history:

'History' ~ yes. Correct.

And then came the separation of church and state ~ and the secularisation of Western nations' affairs. It heralded the beginning of modern civilisation.

But alas, not so with the Muslim countries. They continue to this day to be semi-theocracies frozen in time like bugs in ancient aspic.

No industries. No inventions. No discoveries. No contribution to modern civilisation. Everything of any practical value has had to be imported from the West. But for the West they would still be living in conditions that can only be described as biblical.

And then, even to the present time, Islam inspires in some of its most loyal devotees a whole host of nasty little habits.

Mass murder of rival sects. Suicide bombings. 'Race-rape'. etc etc too numerous to list here.

And then, after they've migrated to Western societies as migrants and refugees ~ lo and behold! The nightly news carries at least one story of violence committed in the local area by The Usual Suspects who are members of an immigrant community no more than 2 to 3 % of the population.

Don't worry about citing Christian-inspired wars and battles from historic times... You should be worrying about how it can happen that in an Islam-saturated city like Cairo an incredible 91 women can be raped by mobs of mosque-attending young Muslim men on a rampage of such barbarity that it would make Genghis Khan blush.

True Colours... You need an attitude-adjustment.

The first step towards a cure that alcoholics have to make is to acknowledge they have a problem. Denial only perpetuates the problem.

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference".

I've custom-tailored this to be more appropriate to your condition:

"Allah, grant me the serenity to accept the facts as they really are,
And to have the courage to admit there's a problem with the Muslim community,
And the wisdom to know the difference between historical Christianity and Modern Day Islam".

On behalf of Ozpolitic's Christian community may I wish you all the best in your recovery and rehabilitation towards being unafraid to admit there's a problem with Muslim communities around the world.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 11:19am

shockresist wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 8:48am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 1:53am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 1:45am:

No excuse, it is available online.

And the Koran starts out on its 1st page, so, so, promising....

http://quran.com/1/1

Yep the Koran starts so Beautiful.The Koran is from God and we are just affirming the beauty of the God of creator.

How beautiful a statement to start a beautiful book.

Not a beautiful book, imo.

After the opening verses the Koran just seems to settle into a constant uninspiring PRATTLE.

Dictionary;
prattle = = talk at length in a foolish or inconsequential way.

e.g.
The 1st chapter of the Koran is very short, 7 verses short

This is an excerpt from the beginning of the 2nd chapter of the Koran;
[the 2nd chapter is 286 verses in length]

Quote:

This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.
They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.
As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
Of the people there are some who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.
Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!
In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).
When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"
Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.
When it is said to them: "Believe as the others believe:" They say: "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
When they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: "We are really with you: We (were) only jesting."

Heady stuff!

Right ?

Wrong.

Of course, the Koran is a much more inspiring holy manuscript, when it is read in the original Arabic [we are told]. :Pi

Quote:

And right from the start in the Christian bible on the very first page there is a contradiction.

Page one people, hear me out.

Genesis 1:5

God created light and morning and evening on the first day of creation.

Then genesis 1:14

God created the moon, sun and the stars of the fourth day.

How could there be light and morning and evening on the forst day when the sources of light were created three days later.

response...

Quote:

Old Testament authority John H. Sailhamer writes:

In v. 14 God does not say, Let there be lights . . . to separate, as if there were no lights before this command and afterward the lights were created. Rather the Hebrew text reads, And God said, 'Let the lights in the expanse of the sky separate.' In other words . . . God's command assumes the lights were already in the expanse and that in response to his command they were given a purpose, to separate the day from the night and to mark seasons and days and years.. . . It suggests that the author did not understand his account of the fourth day as the creation of lights; but, on the contrary, the narrative assumes that the heavenly lights had already been created in the beginning (John H. Sailhamer, Expositors Bible Commentary, Vol. 2, Frank E. Gaebelein General Editor, Grand Rapids Mi: Zondervan, 1990, p. 34).

Thus it is not necessary to assume the sun was not part of the heaven and the earth created on the first day.

6. No Sun In The Future

We must also note that the Bible says there will be light without the sun in the future New Jerusalem.

And there shall be no night there: They shall need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign for ever and ever (Revelation 22:5).

The sun shall no longer be your light by day, nor for brightness the moon shall give light to you; but the Lord will be your everlasting light (Isaiah 60:19).

Since there will be no need for the sun as a light source in the future, it is certainly possible that there was no need for the sun as a light source in the beginning.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=684

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by moses on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 12:32pm

shockresist wrote:
Quote:

But again jesus didn't come for the Christians and didn't come for all of humanity.

Jesus didnt care about everybody.

Jesus only came to the jewish tribes, not the whole world to be followed,

Matthew 10:5-6
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not,But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And he didnt care about everybody, because again he came only to help the jews,

Why the deceit?

Why did you not give the extra verses which show the reason for Christ's decison to go and preach to the faithful?

WHAT DOES MATTHEW 10 REALLY SAY?

Quote:

10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

10:11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.

10:12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.

10:13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

It seems pretty clear that CHRIST was warning the apostles of the dangers that lay ahead of them.

Many people would not receive the message the apostles were were bringing.

Many people would be a real physical danger to the apostles, Christ told the apostles to stay clear of them.

Seems fairly logical to me.

shockresist wrote:
Quote:

Matthew 15:22-26 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

Why are you afraid of the truth shockresist?

Why did you leave most of the narration out?

WHAT DOES MATTHEW 15 REALLY SAY?

Quote:

Matthew15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

For Christian people this recital is of the utmost importance, for this is the commencement in part of what Christianity is all about.

Consider the following verses:

Quote:

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

You see Christianity is founded on the belief that man is saved by faith in Christ.

Again it is very clear Matthew 15 is telling us that anyone with faith in Christ will receive of His blessings. As the **woman of Canaan** did.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by moses on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 12:34pm

True Colours Wrote:
Quote:

Jesus said]“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the way of the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the rabbis and priests, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:17-20

Yes Christ came to fullfil the law

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Fullfil verb means === Cause to happen; complete successfully.

So Christ's sacrifice on the cross completed the requirements of the Mosaic Law.

See the above verses (to shockresist) about man being justified by faith in Christ and not the works of the law.

True Colours Wrote:
Quote:

[Jesus said:] "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."
Matthew 10:34-8

The SWORD is a symbolic term

Sword = Word of God

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So yes the WORD OF GOD causes division. Some people believe some don't.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by shockresist on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 12:53pm

Yadda, if you truly believe, do you mind if I give you a deadly poison and drink it for me?

MK 16:17-18 Those who believe are able to handle snakes and drink any deadly poison without suffering harm.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 1:25pm

shockresist wrote on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 9:23pm:

But again jesus didn't come for the Christians and didn't come for all of humanity.

Jesus didnt care about everybody.

Jesus only came to the jewish tribes, not the whole world to be followed,

Matthew 10:5-6

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not,But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ***

And he didnt care about everybody, because again he came only to help the jews,

You are mistaken, shockresist.

***
When he spoke this, Jesus had not yet suffered, been killed, and then risen to his glory.

Luke 24:25
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

The New Testament tells us that Christ's ministry, was intentionally and primarily directed to the Jewish people [nation].

Whereas [after Jesus had risen from death] the apostles ministry was directed to all mankind - at the direction of God/Jesus the risen Christ.

Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 13:45
But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 4444
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Acts 26:13
At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

Matthew 26:13
Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

Mark 16:14
Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

What gospel ?

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

4444

God's promise to Abraham [and through Abraham, to all mankind]...

Genesis 22:18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Genesis 26:4
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

The man Jesus, is the seed of Abraham.

The redeemer of all of those who love God.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 1:31pm

shockresist wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 12:53pm:

Luke 4:12
And Jesus answering said unto him....Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

I do not have the power to perform 'miracles' for fools.

All power comes from God.

So you would like me to take some poison ?

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 1:43pm

Yadda wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 1:25pm:

Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 13:45
But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 4444
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.i4444

God's promise to Abraham [and through Abraham, to all mankind]...

Genesis 22:18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Genesis 26:4
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

The man Jesus, is the seed of Abraham.

The redeemer of all of those who love God.

4444

Also.....

Isaiah 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

It is all unfolding before our eyes.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by True Colours on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 11:44pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 9:21am:

True Colours wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 1:21am:

This must be the verse that inspired the Christian massacres throughout history:

'History' ~ yes. Correct.

And then came the separation of church and state ~ and the secularisation of Western nations' affairs. It heralded the beginning of modern civilisation.

Ahh yes and with that the biggest wars and massacres in history; WWI, WWII, Vietnam War, Hiroshima, Colonisation, etc.

The Australian Aborigines must have been so happy that secularisation had saved them from being wiped...oh wait a second, scratch that.

Secularisation has brought more barbarism than the world has ever seen before.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by shockresist on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 8:02am

Yadda wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 1:31pm:

shockresist wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 12:53pm:

Im very sorry Yadda, I wont tempt you, I thought you were a believer.

Its just another aburd claim that Beleivers can drink poison without getting injured.

Other absurd claims in the bible include,

-God takes part in a wrestling match. He wins by injuring Jacob's hip.

-Entering the holy place without wearing bells can result in death

-A man has an obligation to produce a child with his brother's widow. If he refuses, his sister-in-law is to spit in his face in front of the elders.

-The Lord sought to kill Moses

-The Lord kills all the first-born of Egypt and there is not a house where there is not at least one dead.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Herbert on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 9:04am

True Colours wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 11:44pm:

Ahh yes and with that the biggest wars and massacres in history; WWI, WWII, Vietnam War, Hiroshima,

These were wars fought by democracies to prevent them becoming captive to the same sort of tyranny over free people that the churches once enjoyed before the separation of church and state.

The tribal nature of human beings ensures there will always be the potential for warring with ones neighbours.

True Colours wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 11:44pm:

Colonisation, etc.

Throughout history colonisation has brought with it more blessings than damnations.

If it were not for the 'colonisation' of Western technology, medical discoveries, education, law, etc - most of the world today ~ including the Muslim countries ~ would be living as they did in biblical times.

These once-occupied countries have ever since been the benefactors of squillions in annual Foreign Aid and Special Circumstance payments (tsunamis, earthquakes) from the former colonialist countries.

Any debt owed, has been paid off multiple times. Endless 'Sorry Money'. Endless Middle Class White Guilt for the decisions of Queen Victoria's ruling class. Generational guilt.

And then again, the former colonialist powers have imported so many of the people from their former colonies that parts of cities up and down the length and breadth of the UK look like a foreign ..... waaaaaait for it ..... colonisation.

Get on a bus or train in London today and you'll be hard-pressed to spot a white face, let alone an English face. Even the drivers are wearing turbans.

True Colours wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 11:44pm:

The Australian Aborigines must have been so happy that secularisation had saved them from being wiped...oh wait a second, scratch that.

There are more aborigines today than there were when Captain Cook arrived at Botany Bay. The only ones who are 'wiping out' the aborigines are they themselves ~ ably assisted by cradle-to-grave welfare.

True Colours ~ is it really necessary for me to baby-walk you through the answers to your questions? Isn't it time you took stock of these matters and provided your own answers from a reasonable and Western-educated point of view?

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 9:35am

Yadda wrote on Jul 27^th, 2013 at 12:47pm:

Quote:

shockresist,

Anjem Choudary has said....

"Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practising one."

What do moslems [practising moslems] call non-practising moslems ?

And being a non-practising moslem is a capital offence in ISLAM ?

That is the truth isn't it, shockresist ?

And isn't it the truth that you would like to see moslems in Australia be able to to [eventually] implement Sharia law in Australia ?

And isn't the implementation of Sharia law in Australia, what every moslem living in Australia is obligated to struggle [i.e. Jihad] towards ?

e.g.

Quote:

"[a respected moslem community spokesman has] called on Australian Muslims to spurn secular democracy and Western notions of moderate Islam...
...[moslems in Australia were told] that democracy is "haram" (forbidden) for Muslims, whose political engagement should be be based purely on Islamic law.
"We must adhere to Islam and Islam alone," Mr Hanif [said]"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/australia-members-of-hizb-ut-tahrir-say-country-is-god-forsaken-and-that-muslims-must-shun-secular-a.htmli

FROM ISLAMIC LAW

"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

And shockresist,

And isn't it true that the only thing which is protecting non-practising moslems from the 'fervor' and 'zeal' of 'practising' moslems in Australia of 'defending ISLAM' [by attacking and killing apostate Australian moslems], .....is Australian non-ISLAMIC law ?

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:02am

shockresist,

It is true isn't it, that moslems, all moslems, are 'nominally' the members of a religion/group that sanctions the killing of people who make the choice [for themselves], to not believe what they [moslems] believe ?

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

Q #1,
And that being true, where is the place for a persons free conscience, in the life of a moslem ?

Q #2,
Isn't it true, that if a person is a 'practising moslem', there is no place for him to obey his own conscience [i.e. where his own conscience conflicts with ISLAMIC law] ?

Dictionary;
conscience = = a person’s moral sense of right and wrong.

Q #3,
Isn't it true that ISLAM is a perfect unchanging religion [from Mohammed's time], and for ISLAM to remain pure, ISLAM's 1,400 year old ISLAMIC laws can never be amended ?

Because to amended ISLAM's 1,400 year old ISLAMIC laws would be a blasphemy and a capital offence [in ISLAM].

Isn't that true ?

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by shockresist on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:27am

Yadda wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:02am:

Whats the above post got to do with the absurdities in the bible?

Don't divert the question and post up posts which you recycle hundreds of times.

I wouldn't give two stuffs if somebody leaves islam and joins another religion.

I will let God judge him.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by gandalf on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:41am

shockresist wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:27am:

Whats the above post got to do with the absurdities in the bible?

Don't divert the question and post up posts which you recycle hundreds of times.

To be fair, Yadda is bringing the discussion back to the topic of the thread.

Personally I have never been a fan of countering absurd christian theological attacks on islam by throwing back equally absurd theological attacks on christianity. Its a copout as far as I'm concerned. Islam can answer for itself without resorting to irrelevant mudslinging of other religions.

Unfortunately, just about every defender of islam I have seen here (including non-muslims) resorts to this stale tactic.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:45am

shockresist wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:27am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:02am:

Whats the above post got to do with the absurdities in the bible?

Don't divert the question and post up posts which you recycle hundreds of times.

shockresist,

Look at the title of the thread.

The thread is about how 'a practising Muslim' is defined [by ISLAM].

Quote:

I wouldn't give two stuffs if somebody leaves islam and joins another religion.

I will let God judge him.

shockresist,

That is very magnanimous of you.

But how are practising moslems [guided by pure ISLAM] obligated to react, towards persons who reject ISLAM, and particularly ex-moslems ?

[pssssst! shockresist, i know that this is a difficult question to put to you, being a NONE-practising moslem :P
n.b. YOU HAVE CONFIRMED THIS, with your last reply. Correct ? ]

+++

Read what people who have known ISLAM intimately, think of ISLAM !

Ex-moslems!

http://www.islam-watch.org/IW/aboutus.htm
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:47am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:41am:

shockresist wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:27am:

Whats the above post got to do with the absurdities in the bible?

Don't divert the question and post up posts which you recycle hundreds of times.

Thank you, gandalf.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by shockresist on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 11:49am

Yadda wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:45am:

shockresist wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:27am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:02am:

Whats the above post got to do with the absurdities in the bible?

Don't divert the question and post up posts which you recycle hundreds of times.

shockresist,

Look at the title of the thread.

The thread is about how 'a practising Muslim' is defined [by ISLAM].

Quote:

I wouldn't give two stuffs if somebody leaves islam and joins another religion.

I will let God judge him.

I personally have never met a muslim who has converted out of islam.

But if I ever did I would sit with the individual and try to understand why he left, try to understand his situation, work out where the person went wrong etc etc.

If I try to help the individual back to islam and he dosent come back then I cant force him back.

Thats the choice he has made and one day his creator will be the one to judge him.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 6:59pm

shockresist wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 11:49am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:45am:

shockresist wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:27am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 10:02am:

Whats the above post got to do with the absurdities in the bible?

Don't divert the question and post up posts which you recycle hundreds of times.

shockresist,

Look at the title of the thread.

The thread is about how 'a practising Muslim' is defined [by ISLAM].

Quote:

I wouldn't give two stuffs if somebody leaves islam and joins another religion.

I will let God judge him.

shockresist,

So you are stating, in this public forum, that as a moslem, you are prepared to ignore the instruction and command of Mohammed regarding apostates ?

Doesn't Mohammed's understanding of the pure practice of ISLAM, doens't this apply in the 21 st century ?

Is that what you are saying, shockresist ?

shockresist,

Would'nt your response [your tolerance of apostasy/apostates] be regarded as 'an innovation' of the practice of ISLAM and an attempt to change ISLAMIC law ?

OR,

Are you just practising taqiyya in this forum [with regard to your 'moslem' response, on the issue of moslem apostasy], because this forum is frequented by many infidels ???

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by gandalf on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:24am

Yadda wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 6:59pm:

...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him

Firstly this is a weak hadith. Secondly, even if it is authentic, there is a widely held belief amongst scholars and jurists that this only applies to apostates who join the enemies of islam and declare war on muslims (and to be clear - thats literally, not figuratively).

As you well know Yadda, the quran trumps the hadeeth in terms of authority over islamic law. The quran has a fair bit to say about unbelievers and apostates, but nowhere does it say they must be put to death. In fact, most of what it says directly contradicts this so called hadith - not least of all the command that there be no compulsion in religion.

Quote:

"Verily, those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve, and then increase in their disbelief - Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the path. Give to the hypocrites the tidings that there is for them a painful torment."

quran: 4:137-138

Clearly the only punishment in store for these disbelievers is in the afterlife. How could these apostates have the opportunity to repeatedly disbelieve then believe again - if they were supposed to be put to death each time they disbelieve?

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Herbert on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:52am

gandalf again on a cherry-picking mission to sweep the nasty bits under the carpet as being 'weak', or 'reinterpreted' by scholars in order to escape moral censure by the Unbelievers.

And all the while gandalf knows that in Islam the sacred text are the literal Word of Allah, and are therefore not open to 'interpretation' and re-jigging for convenience sake.

Deceit, evasions, denials, 'reinterpretations', obfuscations, smoke-screens, lies, etc etc.

Remember when the Grand Mufti of Australia Sheik Hilaly used to say things that would cause an uproar in the media ... and then whole hosts of 'Muslim leaders' would come forward to say that Hilaly didn't represent them ... and didn't represent 'true' Islam?

Remember the laughs we used to get from that? Over and over again?

"Hey! The Grand Mufti doesn't represent MEEE! ~ and what he said isn't reeeeal Islam".

Yeah ... right.

gandalf is hopping around finding little bits here and there that he hopes will bury the Nasty Bits away from critical attention.

Gandalf the Emu .... peck... peck... peck... peck... all the Good Bits and then pile them on top of the Nasty Bits so they don't show.... 'Insha'Allah'... ;D

I don't know if you're a Muslim, gandalf, but if you are, how about inviting the women at your mosque to come out from the back and pray alongside you men?

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:54am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:24am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 6:59pm:

...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him

Firstly this is a weak hadith. Secondly, even if it is authentic, there is a widely held belief amongst scholars and jurists that this only applies to apostates who join the enemies of islam and declare war on muslims (and to be clear - thats literally, not figuratively).

As you well know Yadda, the quran trumps the hadeeth in terms of authority over islamic law. The quran has a fair bit to say about unbelievers and apostates, but nowhere does it say they must be put to death.

In fact, most of what it says directly contradicts this so called hadith - not least of all the command that there be no compulsion in religion.

Quote:

gandalf,

Yes, i think that the Koran sets out Allah's intentions [AND COMMANDS], clearly enough.

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him;...."
Koran 3.85

"Fighting [against unbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216

"...And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of [i.e. for] those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?...Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan:.."
Koran 4.74-76

"And fight with them until.....religion should be only for Allah,..."
Koran 2.193

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

gandalf,

When moslems fight against the disbelievers [i.e. because they are disbelievers, AS COMMANDED BY ALLAH, IN THE KORAN], won't the moslems actually kill many people, by fighting them ?

"It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise."
Koran 8.067

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 10:02am

Yadda wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:54am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:24am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 6:59pm:

...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him

Firstly this is a weak hadith. Secondly, even if it is authentic, there is a widely held belief amongst scholars and jurists that this only applies to apostates who join the enemies of islam and declare war on muslims (and to be clear - thats literally, not figuratively).

As you well know Yadda, the quran trumps the hadeeth in terms of authority over islamic law. The quran has a fair bit to say about unbelievers and apostates, but nowhere does it say they must be put to death.

In fact, most of what it says directly contradicts this so called hadith - not least of all the command that there be no compulsion in religion.

Quote:

gandalf,

Yes, i think that the Koran sets out Allah's intentions [AND COMMANDS], clearly enough.

gandalf,

When moslems fight against the disbelievers [i.e. because they are disbelievers, AS COMMANDED BY ALLAH, IN THE KORAN], won't the moslems actually kill many people, by fighting them ?

gandalf,

i.e.
When moslems abandon ISLAM, don't they become DISBELIEVERS [as well as apostates] ???

Doesn't Allah [in the authoritative Koran] command moslems to fight against the DISBELIEVERS - and either kill them, or 'turn them' from their unbelief ?

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by gandalf on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 10:23am

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:52am:

And all the while gandalf knows that in Islam the sacred text are the literal Word of Allah, and are therefore not open to 'interpretation' and re-jigging for convenience sake.

Herbert, the sacred text is the quran and the quran alone. And nowhere is the death sentence proscribed on apostates or non-muslims. The hadeeth are *NOT* sacred texts - merely a collection of what the prophet said. Some are authentic, some are questionable, and some are outright fabrications (ie the 72 virgins one). *IF* - and its a massive big if - the hadeeth can be confirmed as authentic, and provided it does not contradict the quran - then it can be followed as "sunna" (the way of the prophet). In this case, it is a nice compliment to the only true authority on islamic law - the quran. But in *ALL* cases, the quran trumps the hadeeth.

now speaking of cherry picking...

Yadda wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:54am:

"And fight with them until.....religion should be only for Allah,..."
Koran 2.193

Gee Yadda - convenient little "..." you put there after "until" I wonder which word you left out? Couldn't be anything important surely :D. Also, you missed the very next sentence. The *WHOLE* non-cherry picked verse:

Quote:

Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.

"fitnah" - another word for oppression or strife.

more context:

Quote:

Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

2:190

Yadda wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:54am:

When moslems fight against the disbelievers [i.e. because they are disbelievers, AS COMMANDED BY ALLAH, IN THE KORAN], won't the moslems actually kill many people, by fighting them ?

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Yadda on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 11:06am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 10:23am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:54am:

"And fight with them until.....religion should be only for Allah,..."
Koran 2.193

Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.

"fitnah" - another word for oppression or strife.

more context:

[quote]Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

2:190

Yadda wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:54am:

When moslems fight against the disbelievers [i.e. because they are disbelievers, AS COMMANDED BY ALLAH, IN THE KORAN], won't the moslems actually kill many people, by fighting them ?

Yes Yadda, they will. But as is made abundantly clear from the above non-cherry picked verses, fighting is strictly prohibited against those unbelievers who are not oppressing muslims. Obviously a far cry from the idea that all apostates and all non-muslims are to be executed on the spot. You don't have a leg to stand on when citing true islamic texts.

[/quote]

Your argument, your justification for fighting against unbelievers, is because moslems are simply defending their communities from non-moslem oppression.

THAT CLAIM IS PURE MOSLEM PROJECTION [i.e. committing a criminal act, then justifying your crimes by blaming the victim].

i.e.
We need to turn that moslem argument around, 180 degrees.

And view the real circumstances with fresh eyes.

gandalf,

Allah himself, IN THE KORAN, tells moslems what disbelief indicates in men, it indicates;

"fitnah" - another word for oppression or strife.

So, the condition of unbelief in a non-moslem society indicates "fitnah" TOWARDS BELIEVERS [i.e. moslems].

"Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).
And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"
Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan. "
Koran 4.74-76

So fight against the disbelievers [NOT BECAUSE OF FITNAH], BUT BECAUSE UNBELIEF IS FITNAH !

And Allah states that, in Koran 4.74-76i

The exhortations to moslems within ISLAMIC texts, to fight in 'the Cause of Allah' are prolific....

Here is a small sample;

"Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger! Those who disbelieve and hinder men from the Cause of Allah, He will not pardon. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace. You have the upper hand.
Koran 47.33-35

"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.065
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.080i

n.b.
......"He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."

"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #001.002.026

To fight in 'the Cause of Allah', is not about [an outcome of, seeking] peace, is not about [ie. caused by] fitnah.

But pursuing 'the Cause of Allah' is about furthering the supremacist ambitions of moslems [and Allah].

That is the truth, which moslems obfuscate and always refuse to acknowledge - because moslems are fighting a war, which justifies lies and deception.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Herbert on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 11:58am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 10:23am:

The hadeeth are *NOT* sacred texts - merely a collection of what the prophet said.

You are committing sacrilege with this statement. You are demeaning the status of the Prophet, not once, but twice. You have chosen to omit the 'PBUH' following the mention of the Prophet.

And you know perfectly well that anything the Prophet said is sacrosanct and carries with it the authority of Allah.

In some quarters a fatwa would be declared against you for the disrespect you have show in your opening sentence here.

Your following comments are therefore lacking in authority.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by gandalf on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 12:08pm

Yadda wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 11:06am:

So fight against the disbelievers [NOT BECAUSE OF FITNAH], BUT BECAUSE UNBELIEF IS FITNAH !

And Allah states that, in Koran 4.74-76

Just so we're clear, 'fitnah' is not mentioned once in 4:74-76

In any case, your thesis that "fitnah" equals "unbelief", therefore the command to fight against 'fithah' equals kill all the non-muslims makes no sense in the context of the verses you just quoted.

Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.

How can there simultaneously be a slaughter of all unbelievers for being unbelievers, and a specific command to not fight those unbelievers who don't oppress you?

FITNAH literally translates to 'chaos', 'disorder', 'strife'. The context of the word in the quran, is the prevention of being able to practice islam due to the chaos/disorder/strife caused by the unbelievers. To all intents and purposes, it literally means oppression, by non-muslims who have muslims under their yoke.

Other verses in the quran simply make a mockery of your claim that the quranic war verses are simply commands to kill non-muslims for being non-muslims:

Quote:

And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.

9:6

Deliver him to his place of safety? Shouldn't it be "deliver them to the grave" or something? :D

this verse comparing to what the aggressors do:

Quote:

They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors.

9:10

Why would this point of comparison be necessary if God simply wanted the same treatment meted out to non-believers?

Yadda wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 11:06am:

Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace. You have the upper hand.

Um.. you're quoting a passage that calls for muslims to not falter in their cry for *PEACE*?? Whats wrong Yadda? - getting a bit sloppy with your cherry picking ;D ;D

Yadda wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 11:06am:

To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause

who added the words in parenthesis - you? I fully advocate jihad - and I am non-violent. How could this be Yadda?

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by gandalf on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 12:20pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 11:58am:

And you know perfectly well that anything the Prophet said is sacrosanct and carries with it the authority of Allah.

I agree. The question is, how do we determine what the prophet actually said - when we are reading claims of what he said, often several hundred years after the prophet's death.

There is a subset of hadeeth known as the "Hadith Qudsi", which are deemed to be sacred, and coming directly from God (through The Prophet). I'm pretty sure you won't find any of the hadeeth Yadda and co like to quote amongst them.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Herbert on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 12:47pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 12:20pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 11:58am:

And you know perfectly well that anything the Prophet said is sacrosanct and carries with it the authority of Allah.

Oh come on!

How much more obfuscation and tap-dancing are you people capable of?

You know as well as I do that the Koran provides justification for jihad against the Unbelievers just as it counsels peace. It all depends on accepting or rejecting the abrogated versions of the Koran.

Suicide bombers are no less following the commands found in the Koran than are those who advocate peace.

And this is what makes Islam so dangerous. There are 'extremist' passages in the Koran just as there are passages of a more modest nature.

What this means is that whatever you do as a Muslim ~ some cherry-picked parts of the Koran will provide moral sanction for what you've done.

It's a religion that's all over the place like a mad woman's breakfast.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by gandalf on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 12:59pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 12:47pm:

What this means is that whatever you do as a Muslim ~ some cherry-picked parts of the Koran will provide moral sanction for what you've done.

Firstly isn't just hillarious that you people talk about cherry picking the quran - given what Yadda just did in his last post (ie verse 2:193)?

Secondly, there is no moral sanction in the quran for conducting an ongoing campaign of terror and killing against non-muslims. None whatsoever. Every verse that the haters can quote *ALWAYS* balances the "aggression" with a command to desist hostilities whenever a) the oppression against muslims stops or b) whenever the aggressors incline towards peace.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Baronvonrort on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 1:23pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 12:59pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 12:47pm:

What this means is that whatever you do as a Muslim ~ some cherry-picked parts of the Koran will provide moral sanction for what you've done.

I thought 2/85 forbids cherry picking, Falah did say the ability to cherry pick is what separates Islam from the other beliefs.

www.quran.com/2/85

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Herbert on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 1:31pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 12:59pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 12:47pm:

What this means is that whatever you do as a Muslim ~ some cherry-picked parts of the Koran will provide moral sanction for what you've done.

Firstly isn't just hillarious that you people talk about cherry picking the quran - given what Yadda just did in his last post (ie verse 2:193)?

Let's be a little more honest here, shall we, gandalf?

The cherry-picking that Christians do does not see planes being flown into buildings, or bombs being exploded to target civilians upon the justification of quotes from the bible.

This can't be said of the Muslim jihadists.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 12:59pm:

Secondly, there is no moral sanction in the quran for conducting an ongoing campaign of terror and killing against non-muslims. None whatsoever.

Every verse that the haters can quote *ALWAYS* balances the "aggression" with a command to desist hostilities whenever a) the oppression against muslims stops or b) whenever the aggressors incline towards peace.

;D ;D

And there we have it again. Duplicity writ large.

The Koran doesn't allow for violence ... but then again, it DOES allow for violence ...

So what do you think, gandalf ~ has the West been waging an indiscriminate war against 'Muslims' per se for 9/11 etc... or has the West been targeting the sort of extremist Muslims that you so-called 'moderates' agree are giving Islam a bad name and who are misrepresenting Islam?

Think carefully before you answer.

If 'extremists' are the enemy of True Islam, and an embarrassment to you 'moderate' Muslims, then the West's interventions into Iraq and Afghanistan must give you 'moderates' cause for celebration.

Correct?

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by gandalf on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 2:22pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 1:31pm:

The Koran doesn't allow for violence ... but then again, it DOES allow for violence ...

Of course it allows for violence. Read my point again: there is no sanction in the quran for the type of aggressive violence and terrorism against non-muslims for the simple crime of being non-muslims. None, whatsoever. That is what Yadda is attempting to argue, and it can easily be rejected by looking at the verses that he quotes in its full, non-cherry picked, form.

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 1:31pm:

If 'extremists' are the enemy of True Islam, and an embarrassment to you 'moderate' Muslims, then the West's interventions into Iraq and Afghanistan must give you 'moderates' cause for celebration.

No, violence begets violence. Extremism is born from extremism. By the way, what did intervening in Iraq have to do with fighting islamic extremism? Al Qaeda and co hated Saddam even more so than the west. He was an atheist for crying out loud.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Baronvonrort on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 2:32pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 2:22pm:

By the way, what did intervening in Iraq have to do with fighting islamic extremism? Al Qaeda and co hated Saddam even more so than the west. He was an atheist for crying out loud.

We had setup no fly zones in the north to protect the Kurds from Saddam and no fly zones in the south to protect the shia from Saddam.
There are no available USA aircraft to setup a no fly zone in Syria.

Are you trying to bullshit to us that Saddam was an atheist, is there no end to the fluent bullshit from muslims?

Saddam was a sunni muslim.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by gandalf on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 2:38pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 2:32pm:

Are you trying to bullshit to us that Saddam was an atheist, is there no end to the fluent bullshit from muslims?

Saddam was a sunni muslim.

He was leader of a party that was fiercely secularist and anti-religion. He persecuted muslims, and promoted a non-religious society.

Actually, sounds like your kinda guy Baron.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Herbert on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 3:10pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 2:22pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 1:31pm:

The Koran doesn't allow for violence ... but then again, it DOES allow for violence ...

Of course it allows for violence. Read my point again:

Yes... let's read your point again...

Quote:

I'll ask you again: When has the West waged a war against a people for the reason that they are Muslims?

Weapons of Mass Destruction ... al-Qaeda terrorist groups ... the Taliban ... Saddam Hussein awarding the families of suicide bombers who kill Israelis (US allies) $25,000.

The West targeted them for the threat they posed, or the terrorist actions they had already visited upon the West. (9/11 occurred before the first invasion of Iraq).

Stop pretending innocence on behalf of these Muslim malcontents, gandalf.

I personally would have reinstated Saddam Hussein with an official apology, because his sort of Police State terrorist control over the Iraqi population was exactly what their medieval mindsets could understand and appreciate.

When you lift dictatorial Police State control off the backs of the general public in a Muslim country you're liable to start hearing about 19 women being raped by mobs of young men in the city's central square within a 'window of opportunity' that lasted only two weeks.

It's something like throwing open the gates of a lunatic asylum or a maximum security prison.

But I digress.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by gandalf on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 6:17pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 3:10pm:

I'll ask you again: When has the West waged a war against a people for the reason that they are Muslims?

I have no idea how we got to this topic, but I never said the west wages war on muslims. I know a lot of muslims make this statement, but its idiotic. The US typically support islamic extremists - like they are doing in Syria now, and target secular almost anti-islamic regimes like Saddam, and more recently Libya. Thats been the pattern for most of the post war period.

What was your point again?

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by freediver on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 6:56pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 12:59pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 12:47pm:

What this means is that whatever you do as a Muslim ~ some cherry-picked parts of the Koran will provide moral sanction for what you've done.

Right. Muslims are supposed to win. Then execute 700 people. That gets the terror and killing over and done with quickly. Then it's back to the regular friendly relations with non-Muslims, who know their place in the world.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by gandalf on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 7:11pm

freediver wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 6:56pm:

Right. Muslims are supposed to win.

No, they are supposed to fight until either a) the oppression stops or b) the enemy inclines towards peace.

freediver wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 6:56pm:

Then execute 700 people.

The enormous number of dhimis in the muslim world for centuries - a large portion of them jews - debunks your meme. The Banu Quraysa were traitors, they were a real existential threat to the fledgling muslim nation, they were given the standard punishment for treachery. Deal with it.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by freediver on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 8:29pm

It was not standard at all. Not then. Not today. It was a low point, even by the brutal standards of 7th century arab tribal warfare. Nor were they a threat. All 700 of them were captives. They were POWs. They posed no threat at all. The only thing they posed was an opportunity for Muhammed to make his name.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Herbert on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 8:57pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 6:17pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 3:10pm:

I'll ask you again: When has the West waged a war against a people for the reason that they are Muslims?

I have no idea how we got to this topic, but I never said the west wages war on muslims. I know a lot of muslims make this statement, but its idiotic.

Well said. I might even campaign on your behalf to have you elected as an imam in your local area.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 6:17pm:

The US typically support islamic extremists - like they are doing in Syria now,

Correct.

It's a little unnerving that so many military decisions made by the US are patently absurd for being bereft of commonsense and in complete disregard for consequences.

Many of the rebel militia in Syria are allied to al-Qaeda and its many imitators.

Apparently the US government believes its a good strategy to donate plane-loads of ordnance to these extremists.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 6:17pm:

and target secular almost anti-islamic regimes like Saddam, and more recently Libya. Thats been the pattern for most of the post war period.

In matters of military decision-making I don't think the US administration has been able to find its own arse with both hands for many years now.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 6:17pm:

What was your point again?

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by True Colours on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 9:45pm

freediver wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 8:29pm:

...They were POWs...

According to modern definitions to qualify as a POW you must have conducted military operations according to the laws and customs of war.

Attacking the state you live in providing aid to the enemy does not fall within the normal accepted rules and customs of war.

The Qurayzas were criminal traitors, and did not deserve the protection one might normally give to a prisoner of war.

Anyone who aids the enemy in times of war is liable to the death penalty, and is not a POW.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by freediver on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 10:00pm

Quote:

According to modern definitions to qualify as a POW you must have conducted military operations according to the laws and customs of war.

Muhammed attacked them. They attempted to defend themselves. That counts.

Quote:

Attacking the state you live in providing aid to the enemy does not fall within the normal accepted rules and customs of war.

Except that they did not actually do any attcking, did they? This claim of yours always vanishes into thin air when I ask for any details.

Quote:

Anyone who aids the enemy in times of war is liable to the death penalty, and is not a POW.

All 700 of them aided the enemy? Plus the women and children they enslaved and raped? Is this the kind of crap the Koran teaches you to spin?

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by True Colours on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 10:17pm

The Qurazas aided the enemy in time of war and attacked Muslims.

Can you provide proof that any of their women were raped?

Of course facts are not important to liars like you are they Freediver?

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Herbert on Jul 31^st, 2013 at 7:58am

True Colours wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 10:17pm:

Can you provide proof that any of their women were raped?

;D ;D ;D

Can you provide proof that Mohamed was the Messenger of Allah?

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by True Colours on Jul 31^st, 2013 at 1:15pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 31^st, 2013 at 7:58am:

Can you provide proof that Mohamed was the Messenger of Allah?

What are the signs of a true prophet?

Prophets preach monotheism. Muhammed only ever taught monotheism.

Prophets are sent with miracles. Muhammed was accompanied by a number of miracles - one of these is the Quran.

Quote:

Say: "[Even] if mankind and the spirits were together to try to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another."

- the Quran, al-Isra', v.88

Quote:

And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides God, if you are truthful.

- the Quran, al-Baqarah, v.23

The Quran is a multi-faceted miracle. What convince me that it was the word of God is its authoritative nature - no man can talk the way God does. Try and write a book like it - nobody has ever written anything like it in human history.

Another amazing thing is the millions of people who have memorised the whole Quran even today 1400 years after it was first revealed.

Quote:

And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember...

- the Quran, Qamar, v.17

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by Herbert on Jul 31^st, 2013 at 1:34pm

True Colours ~ if your religion gives you comfort and strength in your life, then good luck to you.

**********

The rattan should have a place in law.

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by freediver on Aug 1^st, 2013 at 7:26pm

True Colours wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 10:17pm:

The Qurazas aided the enemy in time of war and attacked Muslims.

Can you provide proof that any of their women were raped?

Of course facts are not important to liars like you are they Freediver?

Can you provide one single example, in the entire history of Islam, of a Muslim man being punished under islamic law for raping his wife or his sex slave?

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by True Colours on Aug 1^st, 2013 at 7:36pm

freediver wrote on Aug 1^st, 2013 at 7:26pm:

Can you provide one single example, in the entire history of Islam, of a Muslim man being punished under islamic law for raping his wife or his sex slave?

No I am not a professor of Islamic history or law.

Can you provide any example of a man ever being punished for raping his slave in any culture?

Can you provide any example prior to 1970 of a man being punished for raping his wife in any country in the world?

Title: Re: Either you are a practising Muslim or a non-practi
Post by freediver on Aug 1^st, 2013 at 8:21pm

Quote:

No I am not a professor of Islamic history or law.

You just finished typing out an extract from a book so you could post it here. It appears to be the first time anyone has ever posted that extract online, even though you claim it is very famous. Not knowing what you are talking about has obviously never stopped you before.

So tell us TC, what are we supposed to make of Islam considering sex to be a man's right and a woman's responsibility?

What are we supposed to make of Islam permitting polygamy and the capturing of concubines on the battlefield?

What are we supposed to make of Muslims who are otherwise an endless source of transparent spin when it comes to Islam suddenly pulling out the "I am not an expert" line when it comes to rape?

Quote:

Can you provide any example of a man ever being punished for raping his slave in any culture?

Having a slave is illegal. The yanks fought a war over it. If you really find it hard to believe that someone might have been punished for having slaves (let alone raping them), I'm sure I could google it for you. In fact some rich Saudis were recently busted with slaves in London. I just find it hard to believe that you would need an example to demonstrate that slavery and rape is illegal. Or is this merely yet another pointless deflection?

Quote:

Can you provide any example prior to 1970 of a man being punished for raping his wife in any country in the world?

What would the point be? Would it shed any light on whether Islam permits rape? Or is this merely yet another transparent moral equivalence deflection?

BTW, how did that women's rights movement of the 1970's go in Muslim countries? Did it hit some kind of barrier that is incomprehensible to you? Or do they already have equal rights?