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http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl Member Run Boards >> Environment >> Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1378457001 Message started by muso on Sep 6^th, 2013 at 6:43pm

Title: Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp
Post by muso on Sep 6^th, 2013 at 6:43pm

Quote:

Bremerhaven, 28 February 2013. Atmospheric carbon dioxide and the Antarctic temperature increased synchronously during the last deglacial warming 20,000 to 10,000 years ago. A European team of researchers comes to this conclusion after having re-analysed the age of the enclosed air bubbles in the Antarctic ice core EPICA Dome C. The study, in which the Alfred Wegener Institute, Helmholtz Centre for Polar and Marine Research, was involved, appeared now in the scientific journal Science.

Changes in the chemical composition of the atmosphere in the past can be reconstructed from air bubbles enclosed in Antarctic ice. In this way it has been possible to determine the natural variability of the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide over the past 800,000 years from ice cores. Over the same time window and on the same ice core changes in Antarctic temperature were also reconstructed. How quickly air bubbles were deposited in ice cores at which depth has now been recalculated under the lead of the French Laboratoire de Glaciologie et Geophysique de l’Environnement. With the assistance of the nitrogen isotope 15 N they were able to show that the enclosed air in the EPICA Dome C ice core during the transition from the last glacial to the current interglacial period is older than hitherto assumed. This ice core was obtained in the EPICA project (European Project for Ice Coring in Antarctica).

http://www.awi.de/en/news/press_releases/detail/item/ice_cores_show_simultaneous_changes_of_co2_and_antarctic_temperature_during_the_last_deglacial_warmi/?cHash=c0633524db7f25615c72108b0f139121

Title: Re: Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp
Post by Ajax on Sep 7^th, 2013 at 10:06am

muso wrote on Sep 6^th, 2013 at 6:43pm:

Quote:

http://www.awi.de/en/news/press_releases/detail/item/ice_cores_show_simultaneous_changes_of_co2_and_antarctic_temperature_during_the_last_deglacial_warmi/?cHash=c0633524db7f25615c72108b0f139121

CO2 follows temperature, temperature doesn't follow CO2.

Here are the Vostok ice cores graphed to a scale where its visible to the naked eye that CO2 follows temperature.

http://joannenova.com.au/global-warming-2/ice-core-graph/

Quote:

The bottom line is that rising temperatures cause carbon levels to rise. Carbon may still influence temperatures, but these ice cores are neutral on that. If both factors caused each other to rise significantly, positive feedback would become exponential. We’d see a runaway greenhouse effect. It hasn’t happened. Some other factor is more important than carbon dioxide, or carbon’s role is minor.

http://joannenova.com.au/global-warming-2/ice-core-graph/

Title: Re: Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp
Post by muso on Sep 7^th, 2013 at 10:20am

Well that paper shows temperature and CO2 rising synchronously. No lead time. That's going back 20,000 years.

Joanne Nova doesn't understand the term runaway Greenhouse Effect either. Nobody is claiming anything of the sort.

Tell me, what is the step interval of the Vostok ice core data? How many years between datapoints? I know, but I want to see if you do.

Title: Re: Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp
Post by Ajax on Sep 7^th, 2013 at 10:34am

muso wrote on Sep 7^th, 2013 at 10:20am:

Well that paper shows temperature and CO2 rising synchronously. No lead time. That's going back 20,000 years.

I said its visible to the naked eye, I didn't say that in on a scale of about 50000 years you will detect the 800 year lag.

Seriously champ you have to stop twisting things around to suit your argument.

Quote:

Joanne Nova doesn't understand the term runaway Greenhouse Effect either. Nobody is claiming anything of the sort.

Ok she doesn't understand it and you do....????!!!!

Quote:

Tell me, what is the step interval of the Vostok ice core data? How many years between datapoints? I know, but I want to see if you do.

Does it really matter whether I know the interval or not.

Even if I didn't know I could look it up..??

So what has this to do with the price of the fish..???

Title: Re: Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp
Post by muso on Sep 7^th, 2013 at 5:40pm

Ajax wrote on Sep 7^th, 2013 at 10:34am:

So what has this to do with the price of the fish..???

What, GISP2? The air temperature at the summit of the Greenland icecap?

The obvious answer is that its about as relevant to the discussion as the price of fish.

Title: Re: Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp
Post by muso on Sep 7^th, 2013 at 5:42pm

Ajax wrote on Sep 7^th, 2013 at 10:34am:

I said its visible to the naked eye, I didn't say that in on a scale of about 50000 years you will detect the 800 year lag.

Does it really matter whether I know the interval or not.

Even if I didn't know I could look it up..??

Well if the step interval is 1000 years, then you're certainly not going to detect a lag of 800 years.

Anyway, you're not digesting this new and more accurate work that's presented in the paper.

Title: Re: Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp
Post by Ajax on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 12:24pm

muso wrote on Sep 7^th, 2013 at 5:40pm:

What, GISP2? The air temperature at the summit of the Greenland icecap?

The obvious answer is that its about as relevant to the discussion as the price of fish.

Why not.....????

You're constantly claiming that Greenland's glaciers are melting and the north pole is disappearing why not....????

As you can see from the chart temperatures have been warmer than today in Greenland and the north pole.

AND that CO2 and temperature don't correlate at all.

So why should we get taxed on the air we breath, when its all part of the natural cycle of the earth..?????

Title: Re: Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp
Post by Ajax on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 12:29pm

muso wrote on Sep 7^th, 2013 at 5:42pm:

Well if the step interval is 1000 years, then you're certainly not going to detect a lag of 800 years.

Anyway, you're not digesting this new and more accurate work that's presented in the paper.

1000 years - 800 years, it will be noticeable on a graph there's not that much difference.

Whether you can measure it on a 50000 year time scale might be another matter.

Well first I would ask who is the work from......????

And if its that complex why don't you explain it to us all...???

Title: Re: Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp
Post by muso on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 12:39pm

I won't bother answering your post on surface temperature versus air temperature. I'll just leave it there for posterity ;D

A little primer on measurement and uncertainty error for you:
https://www2.southeastern.edu/Academics/Faculty/rallain/plab194/error.html

Now let's say that Joanne Nova plotted a dataset that had a step interval of 1000 years, what would be the x-axis uncertainty?

Title: Re: Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp
Post by Ajax on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 12:46pm

muso wrote on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 12:39pm:

I know there is always an uncertainty in science or an error of margin.

So when you tell us all that the rains over Australia in 2010-2011 lowered sea levels by 7mm.

What would be the error of margine in that reading then....???

Title: Re: Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp
Post by muso on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 12:59pm

It's not relevant because if it were 9mm or 6 mm, it would still be possible. The measurement of rainfall also had some error involved. The calculation just showed that about 22% of the rainfall was held up for 1- 2 years or so.

So you agree that it's not possible to make the determination that CO2 lags by 800 years if each point in JN's data was separated by 1000 years? (Actually it's closer to 1054 years, but I'm happy to settle for 1000)

Title: Re: Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp
Post by Ajax on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 1:06pm

muso wrote on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 12:59pm:

What makes you say that, I never said anything of the sort...??

What would be the margin error in calculating that sea levels dropped 7mm.......?????

When the satellite frequency has an accuracy of about 100mm.....???

How was this 7mm measured......?

Title: Re: Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp
Post by muso on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 1:12pm

Ajax wrote on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 1:06pm:

muso wrote on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 12:59pm:

Well maybe you should follow Nils Axel Morner's advice and ask INQUA. Didn't you watch the video? He said "They're the real experts". They'd be quite happy to refer you to the University of Colorado, but I'll save you the trouble:

Nerem, R. S., D. Chambers, C. Choe, and G. T. Mitchum. "Estimating Mean Sea Level Change from the TOPEX and Jason Altimeter Missions." Marine Geodesy 33, no. 1 supp 1 (2010): 435.

Title: Re: Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp
Post by muso on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 1:14pm

Ajax wrote on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 1:06pm:

What would be the margin error in calculating that sea levels dropped 7mm.......?????

When the satellite frequency has an accuracy of about 100mm.....???

How was this 7mm measured......?

I like the way you totally change the subject from Ice Cores to sea level when you're getting out of your depth.

Title: Re: Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp
Post by Ajax on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 1:18pm

Nothing wrong with Dr. Nils Axel Morner's view on the AGW religion, he's fair and honest.

That's what i'm after too.

Talk about anything you want.

Surface temperature air temperature....??!!

You cannot discredit the graphs they are graphs that both sides use and they are graphs from real data bases.

So no matter how you wiggle the argument they are there like dogs balls for all to see.

Title: Re: Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp
Post by muso on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 1:24pm

Try comparing global surface temperatures trends to regional air temperature trends anywhere. Is there any relationship at all ?

Title: Re: Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp
Post by Ajax on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 1:31pm

muso wrote on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 1:24pm:

Try comparing global surface temperatures trends to regional air temperature trends anywhere. Is there any relationship at all ?

Ok please explain....??

What are you trying to say......???

There will be a difference between global temperature and regional temperature, i'm sue most of us will be aware of this.

That's why we have the mean isn't it...????

Or are you trying to say that the temperature over Greenland is somehow meaningless...????

Make your point......!!!

Title: Re: Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp
Post by muso on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 1:42pm

Ajax wrote on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 1:31pm:

Or are you trying to say that the temperature over Greenland is somehow meaningless...????

I'm trying to get you to investigate things for yourself rather than being spoonfed by Anthony Watts and Joanne Nova, but to answer your question, surface temperatures are way different to air temperatures, and regional trends are way different to global trends.

Title: Re: Ice cores - simultaneous changes of CO2 and Temp
Post by Ajax on Sep 9^th, 2013 at 8:48am

muso wrote on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 1:42pm:

Ajax wrote on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 1:31pm:

Or are you trying to say that the temperature over Greenland is somehow meaningless...????

WTF are you trying to say because alarmists also use both.

Dude you haven't got a leg to stand on........!!!!!!