islam hates women because:
The qur'an unambiguously states that allah is a satanic deceiver of men who will fill the hellfires with men and jinns:

Quote:

10.100 : No soul can believe,except by the will of Allah, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand. 32;13 If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance: but the Word from Me will come true, "I will fill Hell with Jinns and men all together." 18.057 : And who doth more wrong than one who is reminded of the Signs of his Lord, but turns away from them, forgetting the (deeds) which his hands have sent forth? Verily We have set veils over their hearts lest they should understand this, and over their ears, deafness, if thou callest them to guidance, even then will they never accept guidance. 17.046 : And We put coverings over their hearts (and minds) lest they should understand the Qur'an, and deafness into their ears: when thou dost commemorate thy Lord and Him alone in the Qur'an, they turn on their backs, fleeing (from the Truth). 45.023 : Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire? Allah has, knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart (and understanding), and put a cover on his sight. Who, then, will guide him after Allah (has withdrawn Guidance)? Will ye not then receive admonition? 36.008 : We have put yokes round their necks right up to their chins, so that their heads are forced up (and they cannot see). 36.009 : And We have put a bar in front of them and a bar behind them, and further, We have covered them up; so that they cannot see. 36.010 : The same is it to them whether thou admonish them or thou do not admonish them: they will not believe 4.143 : (They are) distracted in mind even in the midst of it,- being (sincerely) for neither one group nor for another whom Allah causes to go astray,- never wilt thou find for him the way. 6.039 : Those who reject our signs are deaf and dumb,- in the midst of darkness profound: whom Allah willeth, He leaveth to wander: whom He willeth, He placeth on the way that is straight 13.027 : The Unbelievers say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "Truly Allah leaveth, to stray, whom He will; But He guideth to Himself those who turn to Him in penitence,- 14.004 : We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom. 16.093 : If Allah so willed, He could make you all one people: But He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your actions. 19.083 : Seest thou not that We have set the Evil Ones on against the unbelievers, to incite them with fury? 35.008 : Is he, then, to whom the evil of his conduct is made alluring, so that he looks upon it as good, (equal to one who is rightly guided)? For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them: for Allah knows well all that they do! 39.023: Allah has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book, consistent with itself, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of Allah's praises. Such is the guidance of Allah: He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as Allah leaves to stray, can have none to guide. 45.023 : Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire? Allah has, knowing (him as such), led him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart (and understanding), and put a cover on his sight. Who, then, will guide him after Allah (has withdrawn Guidance)? Will ye not then receive admonition? 27.004 : As to those who believe not in the Hereafter, We have made their deeds pleasing in their eyes; and so they wander about in distraction.

All of the above verses teach that allah deliberately stops people from understanding, he will mislead them.

The following verse says:

Quote:

6.043 : When the suffering reached them from us, why then did they not learn humility? On the contrary their hearts became hardened, and Satan made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them.

It is very obvious that allah and satan are one and the same (straight out of the qur'an, both mislead people and cause them to sin)

continued below

Now to get to the women in islam:

Quote:

Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.” Tabari I:280 “Allah said, ‘It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.’ Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid.” Qur’an 4:11 “Allah directs you in regard of your Children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females…. These are settled portions ordained by Allah.” Bukhari:V1B22N28 “The Prophet said: ‘I was shown the Hell Fire and the majority of its dwellers were women who are disbelievers or ungrateful.’ When asked what they were ungrateful for, the Prophet answered, ‘All the favors done for them by their husbands.’” Muslim:B1N142 “‘O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell.’ A wise lady said: Why is it, Allah’s Apostle, that women comprise the bulk of the inhabitants of Hell? The Prophet observed: ‘You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. ]b]You lack common sense, fail in religion and rob the wisdom of the wise[/b].’ Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense? The Prophet replied, ‘Your lack of common sense can be determined from the fact that the evidence of two women is equal to one man. That is a proof.’” Qur’an 4:43 “Believers, approach not prayers with a mind befogged or intoxicated until you understand what you utter. Nor when you are polluted, until after you have bathed. If you are ill, or on a journey, or come from answering the call of nature, or you have touched a woman, and you find no water, then take for yourselves clean dirt, and rub your faces and hands. Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.” Bukhari:V4B55N547 “The Prophet said, ‘But for the Israelis, meat would not decay, and if it were not for Eve, wives would never betray their husbands.’” Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’” Ishaq:584 “Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman.” Ishaq:185 “In hell I saw women hanging by their breasts. They had fathered bastards.” Qur’an 24:33 “Force not your slave-girls to whoredom (prostitution) if they desire chastity, that you may seek enjoyment of this life.  But if anyone forces them, then after such compulsion, Allah is oft-forgiving.” Ishaq:469 “The Apostle said, ‘Every wailing woman lies except those who wept for Sa’d.’” Ishaq:496 “Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.’ So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, ‘Tell the Apostle the truth.’”

O.K. so the qur'an admits that allah / satan chooses who to mislead and cause to sin.

From the above we are told that women are stupid, liars, untrustworthy, deserving of being beaten, they are the majority of people in hell.

So allah/satan has displayed his hatred of women by deliberately misleading them, inducing them to go to hell.

It's easy to see why women are forced to marry old men as child brides, blamed if they get raped, killed in honour killings,  disfigured or murdered by muslim male relatives etc.etc.

Hatred of women is part and parcel of islam

So Mohammed had 10-12 wives but hated women.Yeah ok, makes sense ay moses.

Christianity is just as bad:

    A wife is a man’s property: You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor. Exodus 20:17

    Daughters can be bought and sold: If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. Exodus 21:7

    A raped daughter can be sold to her rapist: 28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. Deuteronomy 22:28-29

    Collecting wives and sex slaves is a sign of status: He [Solomon] had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. 1 Kings 11:3

    Used brides deserve death: If, however the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. Deuteronomy 22:20-21.

    Women, but only virgins, are to be taken as spoils of war: Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. Numbers 31:17-18

    Menstruating women are spiritually unclean: 19 “‘When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. 20 “‘Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. 21 Anyone who touches her bed will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening. 22 Anyone who touches anything she sits on will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water, . . . 30 The priest is to sacrifice one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement for her before the LORD for the uncleanness of her discharge. 31 “‘You must keep the Israelites separate from things that make them unclean, so they will not die in their uncleanness for defiling my dwelling place,[a] which is among them.’” Leviticus 15: 19-31

    A woman is twice as unclean after giving birth to girl as to a boy: A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. ‘ 3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. 4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. 5 If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding. 6 ” ‘When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering. Leviticus 12: 1-8

    A woman’s promise is binding only if her father or husband agrees: 2 When a man makes a vow to the LORD or takes an oath to obligate himself by a pledge, he must not break his word but must do everything he said. 3 “When a young woman still living in her father’s household makes a vow to the LORD or obligates herself by a pledge 4 and her father hears about her vow or pledge but says nothing to her, then all her vows and every pledge by which she obligated herself will stand. 5 But if her father forbids her when he hears about it, none of her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand; the LORD will release her because her father has forbidden her. . . . . A woman’s vow is meaningless unless approved by her husband or father. But if her husband nullifies them when he hears about them, then none of the vows or pledges that came from her lips will stand. Her husband has nullified them, and the LORD will release her. 13 Her husband may confirm or nullify any vow she makes or any sworn pledge to deny herself. Numbers 30:1-16

    Women should be seen not heard: Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 1 Corinthians 14:34

    Wives should submit to their husband’s instructions and desires: Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Colossians 3:18
    In case you missed that submission thing . . . :  Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Ephesians 5:22-24.

    More submission – and childbearing as a form of atonement: A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. 1 Timothy 2: 11-15
[to be continued]

[continued]
Women were created for men: For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head. 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 1 Corinthians 11:2-10

Sleeping with women is dirty: No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first-fruits to God and the Lamb. Revelation 14:3-4

Perhaps you need, Moses to look at your own religion's record on the topic?

Perhaps you'd care to comment on those biblical quotes and then of course we have such memorable quotes as:


Quote:

You [woman] are the devil’s gateway: you are the unsealer of that (forbidden) tree: you are the first deserter of the divine law: you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God’s image, man. On account of your desert—that is, death—even the Son of God had to die.

Tertullian, c. 160 – c. 225 AD, Christian Theologian


Quote:

Woman is more guilty than man, because she was seduced by Satan, and so diverted her husband from obedience to God that she was an instrument of death leading to all perdition. It is necessary that woman recognize this, and that she learn to what she is subjected; and not only against her husband. This is reason enough why today she is placed below and that she bears within her ignominy and shame.

John Calvin, 10 July 1509 – 27 May 1564, Founder of Protestant denomination named in his honour.

wally1 wrote on Sep 21^st, 2013 at 4:37pm:

So Mohammed had 10-12 wives but hated women.Yeah ok, makes sense ay moses.

Before he became a self proclaimed prophet from god he only had one wife and no sex slaves.

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 21^st, 2013 at 5:21pm:

[continued] Women were created for men: For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head. 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 1 Corinthians 11:2-10 Sleeping with women is dirty: No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first-fruits to God and the Lamb. Revelation 14:3-4 Perhaps you need, Moses to look at your own religion's record on the topic? Perhaps you'd care to comment on those biblical quotes and then of course we have such memorable quotes as: Quote: You [woman] are the devil’s gateway: you are the unsealer of that (forbidden) tree: you are the first deserter of the divine law: you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God’s image, man. On account of your desert—that is, death—even the Son of God had to die. Tertullian, c. 160 – c. 225 AD, Christian Theologian [quote] Woman is more guilty than man, because she was seduced by Satan, and so diverted her husband from obedience to God that she was an instrument of death leading to all perdition. It is necessary that woman recognize this, and that she learn to what she is subjected; and not only against her husband. This is reason enough why today she is placed below and that she bears within her ignominy and shame.

John Calvin, 10 July 1509 – 27 May 1564, Founder of Protestant denomination named in his honour.[/quote]
When was the last time you heard a Christian quoting Tertullian or Calvin as a justification?

Never.

Googling is not argument, Brain.

Brian Ross

Old Testament verses Brian?

The answer to your muslim apologetic post, trying to equate islam with Christianity is simple:

Quote:

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Rom 3:20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Gal 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 3:11  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Nice try Brian, but no bananas, it is fairly obvious that : OLD TESTAMENT LAW was done away with over 2000 years ago.

Now to stay on topic, the facts are: according to the qur'an allah/satan is the deceiver of men and causes them to go to hell.

allah/satan  has chosen to deceive women in order that they are the majority of people in hell?

Then we have the islamic claims that women are stupid, are liars, are untrustworthy, you can force them into prostitution (because allah/satan is merciful), you can beat them etc.?

No wonder muslim women are subjected to human rights abuses in muslim countries,  hatred and scorning of women is enshrined in islamic text.

wally1 wrote on Sep 21^st, 2013 at 4:37pm:

So Mohammed had 10-12 wives but hated women.Yeah ok, makes sense ay moses.

"Do I love ya? Course I loves ya - I fvcks ya, don't I?"


The late unlamented Oliver Reed, Muslim (aren't we all?), to his second wife.

Soren wrote on Sep 21^st, 2013 at 10:01pm:

wally1 wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 4:37pm: So Mohammed had 10-12 wives but hated women.Yeah ok, makes sense ay moses. Do I love ya? Course I loves ya - I fvcks ya, don't I?

Oh, old boy,you are a strong,virile man.

For a dirty little invert.

Innit.

Soren wrote on Sep 21^st, 2013 at 9:53pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 5:21pm: [continued] Women were created for men: For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head. 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 1 Corinthians 11:2-10 Sleeping with women is dirty: No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first-fruits to God and the Lamb. Revelation 14:3-4 Perhaps you need, Moses to look at your own religion's record on the topic? Perhaps you'd care to comment on those biblical quotes and then of course we have such memorable quotes as: Quote: You [woman] are the devil’s gateway: you are the unsealer of that (forbidden) tree: you are the first deserter of the divine law: you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God’s image, man. On account of your desert—that is, death—even the Son of God had to die. Tertullian, c. 160 – c. 225 AD, Christian Theologian [quote] Woman is more guilty than man, because she was seduced by Satan, and so diverted her husband from obedience to God that she was an instrument of death leading to all perdition. It is necessary that woman recognize this, and that she learn to what she is subjected; and not only against her husband. This is reason enough why today she is placed below and that she bears within her ignominy and shame. John Calvin, 10 July 1509 – 27 May 1564, Founder of Protestant denomination named in his honour.

When was the last time you heard a Christian quoting Tertullian or Calvin as a justification?[/quote]

So, you are dismissing what the Bible says, what a leading theologian of the early church says and a leading theologian of the Reformation says, Soren?

Appears to me like your views are rather one-eyed.  Christian belief about the role of the women is just as sexist as Islamic fundamentalists'...   ::)

Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
19  Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.



Ephesians 5:22
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23  For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24  Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27  That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28  So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.



http://media.boreme.com/post_media/2004/i_feminists.jpg
The sign at the back - at a feminist protest

Verily, God is not ashamed to set forth a parable even of a mosquito or so much more when it is bigger (or less when it is smaller) than it. Those who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord; but those who disbelieve say: What doth God wish (to teach) by such a similitude ? He misleadeth many thereby, and He guideth many thereby; and He misleadeth thereby only the rebellious wrongdoers.
- the Quran, al-Baqarah, v.26

True Colours wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2013 at 1:03am:

Verily, God is not ashamed to set forth a parable even of a mosquito or so much more when it is bigger (or less when it is smaller) than it. Those who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord; but those who disbelieve say: What doth God wish (to teach) by such a similitude ? He misleadeth many thereby, and He guideth many thereby; and He misleadeth thereby only the rebellious wrongdoers. - the Quran, al-Baqarah, v.26

True_Colours,

Problem is, that in ISLAM, the words, 'disbelieve', and 'wrongdoer', are 'culturally' synonymous.

And you and yours, do not have the wit to recognise that truth, NOR, to recognise, that to insist upon the validity of such a view, makes you a mentally incompetent [un-reasoning, and an un-reasonable] human being.



Dictionary;
synonymous = = (a word or phrase) having the same meaning as another word or phrase in the same language.







MOSLEMS = = mentally incompetent, un-reasoning, and un-reasonable, human beings....

e.g.
http://openparachute.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/freedom-of-expression-go-to-hell.jpg
"I absolutely insist that freedom of expression must be banned!
HONEST!!!"

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 21^st, 2013 at 10:49pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 9:53pm: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 5:21pm: [continued] Women were created for men: For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head. 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 1 Corinthians 11:2-10 Sleeping with women is dirty: No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first-fruits to God and the Lamb. Revelation 14:3-4 Perhaps you need, Moses to look at your own religion's record on the topic? Perhaps you'd care to comment on those biblical quotes and then of course we have such memorable quotes as: Quote: You [woman] are the devil’s gateway: you are the unsealer of that (forbidden) tree: you are the first deserter of the divine law: you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God’s image, man. On account of your desert—that is, death—even the Son of God had to die. Tertullian, c. 160 – c. 225 AD, Christian Theologian [quote] Woman is more guilty than man, because she was seduced by Satan, and so diverted her husband from obedience to God that she was an instrument of death leading to all perdition. It is necessary that woman recognize this, and that she learn to what she is subjected; and not only against her husband. This is reason enough why today she is placed below and that she bears within her ignominy and shame. John Calvin, 10 July 1509 – 27 May 1564, Founder of Protestant denomination named in his honour. When was the last time you heard a Christian quoting Tertullian or Calvin as a justification?

So, you are dismissing what the Bible says, what a leading theologian of the early church says and a leading theologian of the Reformation says, Soren?

Appears to me like you views are rather one-eyed.  Christian belief about the role of the women is just as sexist as Islamic fundamentalists...   ::)


[/quote]

Its actually good these Christians don't follow the bible in every sense of the word.

Its todays daily telegraph domestic violence is up 30% form 5 years and there is 135000 cases this year.

Just imagine what the numbers would be if they followed the bible.

Australia is a secular country, we have Christians, muslims, Atheists, Buddhists, Pagans, Agnostics, Aboriginal Dreamtime, Shintoists, Taoism etc.etc.

The domestic violence is spread across a wide range of beliefs in Australia.

It would be interesting to see some stats which show domestic violence to belief ratio.

Unlike muslims who live in islamic theocracies, where subjugation / violence against women and young girls is practiced.

A good example of why muslims are into child abuse = muhammad loved to get it off with kids:

Quote:

"Allah's Apostle said to me, "Have you got married O Jabir?"  I replied, "Yes."  He asked "What, a virgin or a matron?" I replied, "Not a virgin but a matron."  He said, "Why did you not marry a young girl who would have fondled with you?" (Bukhari  59:382)

muhammad liked little girls to **fondle** him, muslims are into child brides today.   

moses wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2013 at 11:55am:

Australia is a secular country, we have Christians, muslims, Atheists, Buddhists, Pagans, Agnostics, Aboriginal Dreamtime, Shintoists, Taoism etc.etc. The domestic violence is spread across a wide range of beliefs in Australia. It would be interesting to see some stats which show domestic violence to belief ratio. Unlike muslims who live in islamic theocracies, where subjugation / violence against women and young girls is practiced. A good example of why muslims are into child abuse = muhammad loved to get it off with kids: Quote: "Allah's Apostle said to me, "Have you got married O Jabir?"  I replied, "Yes."  He asked "What, a virgin or a matron?" I replied, "Not a virgin but a matron."  He said, "Why did you not marry a young girl who would have fondled with you?" (Bukhari  59:382) muhammad liked little girls to **fondle** him, muslims are into child brides today.

A US catholic priest got caught with a 15 year old kid who had  pants down just this week.

Just two weeks ago in india, a hindu priest raped a 16 year old girl.

Just few days ago in Melbourne, a jewish leader raped a 15 year old boy and molested 8 other kids.

Of course its always the evil muslims.

Only muslims have child abuse as the accepted behaviour of their most revered prophet.

muhammad is the paradigm of excellence, in islamic culture.

muhammad was a pedophile, child brides / pedophilia is practiced legally in islamic theocracies.

All the other cases of child abuse / pedophilia cited (Catholics / Hindus / Jews), are being performed by sneaking degenerates in total discord with their professed beliefs and the law of their land.

So yes, islam / muslims are the pits.

Is there something wrong with "fondling" with your wife?

All the self-justifications / excuses in the world, in no way vindicates the deeds of muslims practicing legal pedophilia with their child brides.

Nor does it alter the fact, muhammad was a pedophile, his pedophilia is the exoneration muslims use to exercise their child abuse.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 11:30am:

Is there something wrong with "fondling" with your wife?

of course not, as long as it is mutual affection.
the minute the woman (or man) is forced into marriage/fondling, the meaning of "fondling" immediately acquires cardinally different meaning, i.e. rape, or coercion.
Usually, though, muslim woman is prepared for this situation from birth, so in her case she wouldn't really know anything else, she'd think it's normal.

moses wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 10:34am:

Only muslims have child abuse as the accepted behaviour of their most revered prophet. muhammad is the paradigm of excellence, in islamic culture. muhammad was a pedophile, child brides / pedophilia is practiced legally in islamic theocracies. All the other cases of child abuse / pedophilia cited (Catholics / Hindus / Jews), are being performed by sneaking degenerates in total discord with their professed beliefs and the law of their land. So yes, islam / muslims are the pits.

Rape is still rape no matter what the religion is.

moses wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 2:29pm:

Nor does it alter the fact, muhammad was a pedophile, his pedophilia is the exoneration muslims use to exercise their child abuse.

Of all the baseless smears against islam (and there are many), this one has to take the cake. Pedophilia is commonly known as having sexual interest, and/or engaging in actual sexual activity with prepubescent children. There is not a shred of evidence that Muhammad a) had sexual interest in prepubescent children, or that he engaged in any sexual activity with prepubescent children.

wally1 wrote:

Quote:

Rape is still rape no matter what the religion is.

Except if you happen to be in an islamic theocracy, where the woman is blamed if she is raped, where women are horrifically mutilated or murdered to appease queer islamic sensibilities etc.

gandalf wrote:

Quote:

Of all the baseless smears against islam (and there are many), this one has to take the cake. Pedophilia is commonly known as having sexual interest, and/or engaging in actual sexual activity with prepubescent children. There is not a shred of evidence that Muhammad a) had sexual interest in prepubescent children, or that he engaged in any sexual activity with prepubescent children.

Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old girl.

We have the word of muslim spin doctors and their dhimmi apologists that the girl had reached sexual maturity.

Well they would say that wouldn't they?

As I said, not one shred of evidence that he had sex with prepubescent children.

By the way, in case you haven't worked it out - if you make the claim, its up to you to prove it. If you insist on calling Muhammad a pedophile, its incumbent on you to prove it.

And just saying she was 9 doesn't prove she was prepubescent.

Oh, and one more thing, there is strong evidence from hadeeth (you know the same source you monkeys use to prove she was only 9) - that she had reached puberty before consummation.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 6:04pm:

As I said, not one shred of evidence that he had sex with prepubescent children. By the way, in case you haven't worked it out - if you make the claim, its up to you to prove it. If you insist on calling Muhammad a pedophile, its incumbent on you to prove it. And just saying she was 9 doesn't prove she was prepubescent. Oh, and one more thing, there is strong evidence from hadeeth (you know the same source you monkeys use to prove she was only 9) - that she had reached puberty before consummation.

Muslims are the only people who defend banging nine year old children, to justify their profit they have to justify his sins.

Sunnah.com has many hadeeth saying she had not reached puberty.

Can you cite the verses saying a nine year old reached puberty from sunnah.com/search/puberty?

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 8:55pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 23rd, 2013 at 6:04pm: As I said, not one shred of evidence that he had sex with prepubescent children. By the way, in case you haven't worked it out - if you make the claim, its up to you to prove it. If you insist on calling Muhammad a pedophile, its incumbent on you to prove it. And just saying she was 9 doesn't prove she was prepubescent. Oh, and one more thing, there is strong evidence from hadeeth (you know the same source you monkeys use to prove she was only 9) - that she had reached puberty before consummation. Muslims are the only people who defend banging nine year old children, to justify their profit they have to justify his sins. Sunnah.com has many hadeeth saying she had not reached puberty. Can you cite the verses saying a nine year old reached puberty from sunnah.com/search/puberty?

He probably had a marriage contract before his wife reached puberty but he didn't break her in until she was in puberty.

wally1 wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 10:13pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 23rd, 2013 at 8:55pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 23rd, 2013 at 6:04pm: As I said, not one shred of evidence that he had sex with prepubescent children. By the way, in case you haven't worked it out - if you make the claim, its up to you to prove it. If you insist on calling Muhammad a pedophile, its incumbent on you to prove it. And just saying she was 9 doesn't prove she was prepubescent. Oh, and one more thing, there is strong evidence from hadeeth (you know the same source you monkeys use to prove she was only 9) - that she had reached puberty before consummation. Muslims are the only people who defend banging nine year old children, to justify their profit they have to justify his sins. Sunnah.com has many hadeeth saying she had not reached puberty. Can you cite the verses saying a nine year old reached puberty from sunnah.com/search/puberty? He probably had a marriage contract before his wife reached puberty but he didn't break her in until she was in puberty.

She took her dolls with her when she moved into profit Mo's house as a bride, Islam forbids females from playing with dolls when they reach puberty.

Muslims are the only people that try and justify Mohammad having sex with a 9 year old child bride,Is Mo considered the perfect man by muslims?

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 11:02pm:

... Islam forbids females from playing with dolls when they reach puberty....

Please provide evidence from the Quran or hadeeth for this claim.

Aniconism in Islam


Also:
http://www.jesusandmo.net/strips/2013-09-18.png

http://www.jesusandmo.net/strips/2013-09-11.png

http://www.jesusandmo.net/strips/2008-05-09.jpg

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2013 at 11:02pm:

She took her dolls with her when she moved into profit Mo's house as a bride, Islam forbids females from playing with dolls when they reach puberty.

This has to be the most weak-arsed argument you lot use - and it seems to be the only one you have. You should be able to see the flaw in the argument from your own words Baron: She took her dolls with her when she moved into profit Mo's house as a bride, Islam forbids females from playing with dolls when they reach puberty.

Is playing with dolls banned for mature women? Apparently - well lets go with that anyway. Yet, in your own words, she was merely recorded as posessing dolls - not playing with them. Take note of what the actual hadith says:


Quote:

The wind blew a side of the curtain and uncovered Aisha's dolls. He (SAW) said: What is this, O Aisha? She said: My dolls. The he (SAW) saw amongst them a horse with two wings from scraps of cloth. He (SAW) said: What is this which I see amongst them (amongst the dolls)? She said: A horse. He asked: What is upon it? She said: Two wings. He (SAW) asked (in astonishment): A horse with two wings? She said: Didn't you hear that Sulaiman (Solomon - AS) had horses with wings? She said: Then he (SAW) laughed until I saw his molar teeth.[/quote] Now you lot link this hadith with the Fateh-al-Bari narration of another hadith of Aisha playing with dolls, which includes the key commentary (not part of the hadith) that states: [quote]The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.

And thus you make the connection between Aisha posessing dolls after she was living with the prophet, and the ban on mature women playing with dolls - as proof that Aisha must have been prepubescent while she was living with the prophet (and presumably after consumation).

The flaw in this logic should be obvious: nowhere does it say in the relevant hadith that Aisha was playing with her dolls by the time she was living with the prophet, and moreover nowhere does it state in islamic jurisprudence that mere posession (as opposed to playing) of dolls by mature women is banned.

Thus there is no reason not to assume that the hadith in question is merely about Aisha telling the prophet about an old doll that she used to play with, but is now merely stored in her house for sentimental value.

Now for some actual evidence regarding Aisha's maturity by the time the marriage was consumated. And Baron, just for you - from sunna.com:


Quote:

(the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty. Not a day passed but the Prophet () visited us, both in the mornings and evenings. My father Abu Bakr thought of building a mosque in the courtyard of his house and he did so. He used to pray and recite the Qur'an in it. The pagan women and their children used to stand by him and look at him with surprise. Abu Bakr was a Softhearted person and could not help weeping while reciting the Qur'an. The chiefs of the Quraish pagans became afraid of that (i.e. that their children and women might be affected by the recitation of Qur'an).

http://sunnah.com/urn/4680

Refers to a time when the prophet used to visit her and her parents while she was still living with her parents. During this time, she claims herself, that she had reached puberty. It is obvious that a time when the prophet was making daily visits to her parents home to see her, and while she was still living with her parents - the marriage to the prophet had not yet been consumated.

Finally, common sense: the prophet waited a whole 3 years between nikka and consumation. If he was such a pervert who was into sex with tiny prepubescent kiddies - why not get into bed with her straight away?? It certainly would have been his right as undisputed ruler of his people, and certainly wouldn't have been considered unusual in the context of pre-islamic norms (which despite the revelations were still prevalent in that society). Yet he waited an entire 3 years. Strange behaviour indeed for a sick perverted pedophile wouldn't you say? Also strange that for such a sick person, Aisha was the only one of his 11 wives that was prepubescent at any stage. Again, it would have been well within his rights to marry and pork whichever prepubescent girls he liked.

He was not a pedophile, the entire case (which boils down to a weak-arsed story about a wrong assumption about her playing with dolls) is a complete crock of sh!t, and the islamophobes who run with it cannot present a shred of credible evidence to back it up. On the other hand, there is a mountain of evidence to suggest he had no sexual interest whatsoever in prepubescent children, and that he engaged in not a single act of sexual activity with any prepubescent children.

Just to add further on the point about possessing dolls per se is not banned, as opposed to playing with dolls.

wiki-islam goes to great pains to build the pedophile case - but it is based on a completely flawed premise: that mere possession = using them for playing.

From its own source:


Quote:

Al-Haafidh Ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baaree (Fath al-Baaree, no. 6130, Kitaab: al-Adab, Baab: al-Inbisaat ilaa an-Naas): This Hadith has been used as a proof for the permissibility of possessing (suwar - of) dolls and toys for the purpose of the little girls playing with them. This has been especially exempted from the general prohibition of possession of images (suwar). Little Girls Playing With Dolls The Islamic Ruling Concerning Tasweer, Abu Muhammad Abdur-Ra'uf Shakir

It is reasonable to conclude from this that possession of dolls for prepubescent girils for the purpose of playing with them, means that possession of dolls for the purpose of playing with them is banned for post-pubescent women.

However, that in no way implies that mere possession of dolls is forbidden for mature women - as long as they are not used for playing. There is no evidence that Aisha played with her dolls after she reached puberty.

We know that Aisha took her dolls with her to Medina during the Hijra. So in the absence of any evidence that she tossed them out after she reached puberty (in any case, which according to the hadith quoted in my previous post, had already happened before the hijra) - there is no reason to think she didn't just keep her old dolls in her home for the rest of her life - for sentimental value.

gandalf wrote:
Quote:

Oh, and one more thing, there is strong evidence from hadeeth (you know the same source you monkeys use to prove she was only 9) - that she had reached puberty before consummation.

Some extracts from the Australian Government girls health site are:

Quote:

Girls and puberty. When girls reach puberty, things change. Girls start to turn into women.  The body begins to change. Puberty is a gradual thing and everyone goes through it. Whether you are a girl or a boy, you will experience the physical and emotional changes of adolescence. For girls, puberty can begin between 9 and 11 years old. Puberty is a time of many changes. Sometimes when you’re in the middle of it, you might feel there is no one to talk to. In most girls, the first sign of puberty is when breasts start to develop. You might be eight, or you might be thirteen when this happens. Either way, this age range is perfectly normal. You may also find that your nipple area becomes more sensitive at the start of puberty. During puberty, you will gain some weight as your pelvic region begins to alter so that your body will be capable of bearing children later in life. Healthinsite

Reaching puberty in no way infers that the girl is ready for sexual intercourse.

Reaching / attaining puberty means that a girls body has begun to change, it is a time of gradual change, the time her body slowly alters so she may be able to bear children later in her life.

MUHAMMAD WAS A PEDOPHILE, he had sex with a little girl long before her puberty was completed.

moses wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 5:29pm:

MUHAMMAD WAS A PEDOPHILE, he had sex with a little girl long before her puberty was completed.

If you took notice moses, this has been discussed.

According to hadeeth, Aisha started puberty around age 7. Her marriage was not consummated until age 9. This is a normal period between puberty start and finish for girls. There is not really a rational explanation for why Muhammad waited over 2 years between betrothal and consummation - other than to say he waited until she had completed puberty.

Moses (and Baron and anyone else) - in your fantasy of Muhammad the pedophile, what explanation do you have for him waiting over 2 years before he consummates his marriage with a prepubescent girl? As I said before, no one would have even batted an eyelid if he had consummated the marriage straight away - going by the pre-islamic norms that still prevailed at that time.

So we have a "pedophile", who out of all of his 11 wives, had only one who was prepubescent at time of betrothal, and there is every reason to believe that he waited until her puberty was completed before consummating the marriage. Not a shred of evidence that he even fantasised being with prepubescent girls - let alone actually performing any sexual activity with one. Its a baseless smear that is entirely built upon a misinterpretation about when girls are allowed to play with dolls - and must completely ignore a very clear statement by Aisha herself about when she reached puberty.

You guys are pathetic.

A 9 year old girl is a child, whether she has menstruated or not. A 12 year old boy doesn't become a man the day after he had his first nocturnal emission.

Don't be such a primitive desert-dwelling numpty, Gandy. The 7th century is over.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 11:40am:

wiki-islam goes to great pains to build the pedophile case - but it is based on a completely flawed premise:

You might think wiki islam is flawed yet you have done nothing to refute Mo was Pedo, do you think anyone is believing that crap about Aisha reaching puberty at 7, do you think it is possible to justify Mo banging a 9 year old child?

Did Mo have a wet dream or a revelation from Allah that he would marry the child of his neighbor Abu bakr?
I would go with wet dream as Allah is a creation of Mo's imagination when he went to that cave for a wank.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 6:08pm:

Moses (and Baron and anyone else) - in your fact of Muhammad the pedophile, what explanation do you have for him waiting over 2 years before he consummates his marriage with a prepubescent girl? As I said before, no one would have even batted an eyelid if he had consummated the marriage straight away - going by the pre-islamic norms that still prevailed at that time. So we have a "pedophile", who out of all of his 11 wives, had only one who was prepubescent at time of betrothal, and there is every reason to believe that he waited until her puberty was completed before consummating the marriage. You guys are pathetic.

Pre Islamic norms showed Mo marrying a much older filthy rich cougar for his first wife, when he became a self proclaimed profit from god he married a child.

Ayatollah Khomeni wrote in one of his books that Mo was thighing Aisha before he porked her,(think tit bugger yet no tits so use the thighs instead.)

You only have 1 hadith where a 6-7 year old girl claims to have reached puberty, if she had reached puberty as you claim why didnt Abu Bakr let her move in with Mo at age 7?
There are many other Islamic sources that say Aisha had not reached puberty when Mo broke her in, you might ignore them yet i doubt non muslims will.

Do you think Safiyya,Juwairiya and Rayhanna make Mo look good?
His dating methods of attacking their tribes, killing all the men that try to defend themselves along with stealing all their wealth and enslaving the remaining women and children, did he get the prettiest girl from the war booty with Safiyya after ordering her husband be tortured before chopping his head off?

Serious question Gandalf- Do you fear the hellfire? ;D

Soren wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 8:40pm:

A 9 year old girl is a child, whether she has menstruated or not. A 12 year old boy doesn't become a man the day after he had his first nocturnal emission. Don't be such a primitive desert-dwelling numpty, Gandy. The 7th century is over.

I'm merely answering the charge that he was a "pedophile". A pedophile by definition is someone who is attracted to, and has sexual relations with prepubescent children. There is not a shred of evidence that Muhammad was guilty of this.

Whether or not you think its immoral to marry and have sex with a post-pubescent 9 year old is a completely different matter. What I will say about that is that "maturity" is a state of mind as much as anything. In those days puberty was literally the mark of adulthood - regardless of age. When you have that culture, kids grow up fast.  They weren't wrapped in cotton wool like they are now (not that its a bad thing though). Ultimately though, the concept of an 'age of maturity' is completely random. A 9 year old who reached puberty back then would have been psychologically just as "mature" as an 18 year old in today's western world. Just because we have arbitrarily decided that 18 is the magic number.

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 8:50pm:

do you think anyone is believing that crap about Aisha reaching puberty at 7

Baron I just quoted you a sahih hadith from sunna.com that clearly has Aisha herself saying that she had reached puberty before she moved in with the prophet.

And you would have us simply discard that, and instead buy some crap about Muhammad being a pedophile because of your misunderstanding about the islamic rules regarding the permissibility of dolls. Right on.  ::)

You don't have a leg to stand on Baron - this whole smear is a complete joke.


Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 9:05pm:

You only have 1 hadith where a 6-7 year old girl claims to have reached puberty, if she had reached puberty as you claim why didnt Abu Bakr let her move in with Mo at age 7?

I believe I have answered this twice already. Do keep up Baron. Puberty takes around 2 years to complete. Muhammad knew the importance of Aisha completing her puberty before she moved in with him. You're only enhancing the image of the prophet here.


Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 9:05pm:

There are many other Islamic sources that say Aisha had not reached puberty when Mo broke her in

Oh really? Please share Baron, I'm dying to see these "many" sources. I respectfully contend that you are full of sh!t.


Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 9:05pm:

Do you think Safiyya,Juwairiya and Rayhanna make Mo look good? His dating methods of attacking their tribes, killing all the men that try to defend themselves along with stealing all their wealth and enslaving the remaining women and children, did he get the prettiest girl from the war booty with Safiyya after ordering her husband be tortured before chopping his head off?

Ah yes - the last refuge of the defeated - if you can't argue your point anymore, resort to something equally as slanderous - though completely irrelevant. I'm happy to take this attempted diversion as an admission of defeat.


Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 8:50pm:

Did Mo have a wet dream or a revelation from Allah that he would marry the child of his neighbor Abu bakr? I would go with wet dream as Allah is a creation of Mo's imagination when he went to that cave for a wank.

;D ;D Mature character aren't you? Hilarious watching you self implode like this when your smears get smashed to pieces. Please keep it up - its entertaining.

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 9:05pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 24th, 2013 at 6:08pm: Moses (and Baron and anyone else) - in your fact of Muhammad the pedophile, what explanation do you have for him waiting over 2 years before he consummates his marriage with a prepubescent girl? As I said before, no one would have even batted an eyelid if he had consummated the marriage straight away - going by the pre-islamic norms that still prevailed at that time. So we have a "pedophile", who out of all of his 11 wives, had only one who was prepubescent at time of betrothal, and there is every reason to believe that he waited until her puberty was completed before consummating the marriage. You guys are pathetic. Pre Islamic norms showed Mo marrying a much older filthy rich cougar for his first wife, when he became a self proclaimed profit from god he married a child. Ayatollah Khomeni wrote in one of his books that Mo was thighing Aisha before he porked her,(think tit bugger yet no tits so use the thighs instead.) You only have 1 hadith where a 6-7 year old girl claims to have reached puberty, if she had reached puberty as you claim why didnt Abu Bakr let her move in with Mo at age 7? There are many other Islamic sources that say Aisha had not reached puberty when Mo broke her in, you might ignore them yet i doubt non muslims will. Do you think Safiyya,Juwairiya and Rayhanna make Mo look good? His dating methods of attacking their tribes, killing all the men that try to defend themselves along with stealing all their wealth and enslaving the remaining women and children, did he get the prettiest girl from the war booty with Safiyya after ordering her husband be tortured before chopping his head off? Serious question Gandalf- Do you fear the hellfire? ;D

Whether it is gandalf or any other moslem;
gandalf is not concerned with [our] current [or contemporary] social mores relating to whether it is morally right, or whether it is morally wrong,   ....for a much older man to have possession of and to then, also be permitted by society, to sexually penetrate a socially inexperienced child.

No.

The moslem is concerned with only one important detail, relating to sex with a young female child [or any other potentially contentious social issue];

IS IT PERMITTED BY SHARIA LAW ?

i.e.
IS SUCH BEHAVIOUR HALAL, WITHIN A MOSLEM COMMUNITY ?




And how can we know if a certain behaviour is socially permitted ?

What behaviour is permitted [halal], to moslems?

Within ISLAM, for a devout moslem all things are permissible, if they are permitted by Sharia.

.....and it is completely lawful within a moslem community, for a moslem man to marry an eight or nine year old girl.




+++

Regards gandalf, and the hell-fire.

Of course gandalf has no fear of the hell-fire.

gandalf is a righteous, rightly guided person.

gandalf is a moslem.

Far be it for gandalf, to have fear of the hell-fire.

The hell-fire is reserved solely for the infidels.i



+++




Psalms 36:1
The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.
2  For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful.
3  The words of his mouth are iniquity and deceit: he hath left off to be wise, and to do good.
4  He deviseth mischief upon his bed; he setteth himself in a way that is not good; he abhorreth not evil.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 9:46pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 24th, 2013 at 8:40pm: A 9 year old girl is a child, whether she has menstruated or not. A 12 year old boy doesn't become a man the day after he had his first nocturnal emission. Don't be such a primitive desert-dwelling numpty, Gandy. The 7th century is over. I'm merely answering the charge that he was a "pedophile". A pedophile by definition is someone who is attracted to, and has sexual relations with prepubescent children. There is not a shred of evidence that Muhammad was guilty of this. Whether or not you think its immoral to marry and have sex with a post-pubescent 9 year old is a completely different matter. What I will say about that is that "maturity" is a state of mind as much as anything. In those days puberty was literally the mark of adulthood - regardless of age. When you have that culture, kids grow up fast.  They weren't wrapped in cotton wool like they are now (not that its a bad thing though). Ultimately though, the concept of an 'age of maturity' is completely random. A 9 year old who reached puberty back then would have been psychologically just as "mature" as an 18 year old in today's western world. Just because we have arbitrarily decided that 18 is the magic number.

Exactly, Gandy, BACK THEN.

Back then.

You cannot take the sexual norms of a man and his teachings BACK THEN as a guide to sexual practices NOW.

But  you are not able to repudiate the Muslims today who follow Mohammed's example back then. There's Islam's problem in a nutshell.

Just say it: 'Mohammed's example in this regard is not applicable for our society and our time. Doing what he did BACK THEN is not acceptable conduct here and now.'

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 10:09pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 24th, 2013 at 8:50pm: do you think anyone is believing that crap about Aisha reaching puberty at 7 Baron I just quoted you a sahih hadith from sunna.com that clearly has Aisha herself saying that she had reached puberty before she moved in with the prophet. And you would have us simply discard that, and instead buy some crap about Muhammad being a pedophile because of your misunderstanding about the islamic rules regarding the permissibility of dolls. Right on.  ::) You don't have a leg to stand on Baron - this whole smear is a complete joke. In that hadith Aisha said she had seen her parents following Islam since she reached puberty, was her father Abu Bakr one of the first to revert to Islam? How old was Aisha in that hadith was she around 6 years of age or younger? You are the one claiming Aisha reached puberty at 6 , i doubt anyone believes that. Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 24th, 2013 at 9:05pm: You only have 1 hadith where a 6-7 year old girl claims to have reached puberty, if she had reached puberty as you claim why didnt Abu Bakr let her move in with Mo at age 7? I believe I have answered this twice already. Do keep up Baron. Puberty takes around 2 years to complete. Muhammad knew the importance of Aisha completing her puberty before she moved in with him. You're only enhancing the image of the prophet here. You claim puberty takes around 2 years, lets see what an Islamic scholar says about puberty. Quote: A woman is deemed to have reached puberty when one of 4 things happen. 1.When she reaches the age of 15. 2.When her pubic hair grows. 3.When she emits maniy (fluid released at climax,is she a squirter..lol) 4.When she starts to menstruate. www.islamqa.com/en/21246 You claimed Aisha reached puberty at 6. Therefore 1.Nope she is too young 2.How many 6 year olds grow pubic hair, why do muslims have to shave their pubic hair, did Mo like hairless pussy? 3.Unlikely at age 6. 4.She did not get her menses at age 6 Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 24th, 2013 at 9:05pm: There are many other Islamic sources that say Aisha had not reached puberty when Mo broke her in Oh really? Please share Baron, I'm dying to see these "many" sources. I respectfully contend that you are full of sh!t. I have cited them many times,you ignore them to defend your pedo profit. Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 24th, 2013 at 9:05pm: Do you think Safiyya,Juwairiya and Rayhanna make Mo look good? His dating methods of attacking their tribes, killing all the men that try to defend themselves along with stealing all their wealth and enslaving the remaining women and children, did he get the prettiest girl from the war booty with Safiyya after ordering her husband be tortured before chopping his head off? Ah yes - the last refuge of the defeated - if you can't argue your point anymore, resort to something equally as slanderous - though completely irrelevant. I'm happy to take this attempted diversion as an admission of defeat. You were the one who brought up his other wives, Do you think Mohammad's methods of finding a wife are applicable in 2013 by attacking tribes with rape pillage and plunder, the Quran does tell you to follow the example he set Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 24th, 2013 at 8:50pm: Did Mo have a wet dream or a revelation from Allah that he would marry the child of his neighbor Abu bakr? I would go with wet dream as Allah is a creation of Mo's imagination when he went to that cave for a wank. ;D ;D Mature character aren't you? Hilarious watching you self implode like this when your smears get smashed to pieces. Please keep it up - its entertaining.

Is there a hadith where Mo mentions he saw Aisha in a dream?
Muslims are the only people who defend someone having sex with a 9 year old child, keep it up i am sure some are being educated on the muslim mindset, in fact Annie announced she was no longer a muslim after Falah said sex with 9 year old girls was ok because mo did it,Annie has a daughter around that age and she called falah a sick freak in this forum.

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 11:06pm:

Is there a hadith where Mo mentions he saw Aisha in a dream? Muslims are the only people who defend someone having sex with a 9 year old child, keep it up i am sure some are being educated on the muslim mindset, in fact Annie announced she was no longer a muslim after Falah said sex with 9 year old girls was ok because mo did it, Annie has a daughter around that age and she called falah a sick freak in this forum.

I didn't know that.

Good on Annie.







Shine that light, on ISLAM.

Let the people be informed.

Let the people choose, if their loyalty remains with such a philosophy.






Each of us has a choice.

We can choose the darkness, or we can choose to stand in the light.

Moslems abhor the 'light' of scrutiny.

Because moslems are the guilty people, and moslems know it.

Soren wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 8:40pm:

A 9 year old girl is a child, whether she has menstruated or not. A 12 year old boy doesn't become a man the day after he had his first nocturnal emission.

Scientifically, that is the definition of adult - the ability to reproduce.

Puberty has been the sign that mankind has used to define adulthood for millennia without too much dramas. It is a fairly recent phenomenon for politicians to decide that adulthood begins many years after puberty.

The age of consent was 12 in the UK until 1875. The age of consent in the US state of Delaware was only 7 until recently. In 1895, there were four US states that set the age of consent at 10.

Modern politicians can't even decide on a common age to begin adulthood. There are all sorts of different laws with the age of consent arbitrarily set at anywhere between13-18 in Europe and the US.

In Australia, an 11 year-old can be charged with a crime, and in the US they can even be tried as adults (if they are non-white).

In the US you can't drink alcohol until 21, but can drive a car at 16 - 14 in some states.

It is silly to judge someone 1400 years ago by the fashion of today which has no basis in science.

True Colours wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 12:56am:

Soren wrote on Sep 24th, 2013 at 8:40pm: A 9 year old girl is a child, whether she has menstruated or not. A 12 year old boy doesn't become a man the day after he had his first nocturnal emission. Scientifically, that is the definition of adult - the ability to reproduce. Puberty has been the sign that mankind has used to define adulthood for millennia without too much dramas. It is a fairly recent phenomenon for politicians to decide that adulthood begins many years after puberty. The age of consent was 12 in the UK until 1875. The age of consent in the US state of Delaware was only 7 until recently. In 1895, there were four US states that set the age of consent at 10. Modern politicians can't even decide on a common age to begin adulthood. There are all sorts of different laws with the age of consent arbitrarily set at anywhere between13-18 in Europe and the US. In Australia, an 11 year-old can be charged with a crime, and in the US they can even be tried as adults (if they are non-white). In the US you can't drink alcohol until 21, but can drive a car at 16 - 14 in some states. It is silly to judge someone 1400 years ago by the fashion of today which has no basis in science.

You are the fvckn dangerous idiot of Islam we have been all warned about but many have chosen to ignore.

Soren wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 10:37pm:

Exactly, Gandy, BACK THEN. Back then. You cannot take the sexual norms of a man and his teachings BACK THEN as a guide to sexual practices NOW.

Its a question of morality, and morality is absolutely based on the context and the social norms of the time. The issue here is the psychological state of the girl, and whether or not they are mentally "mature" enough to be able to handle marriage and sex. The age of the girl is completely incidental and arbitrary. My point is that it is not "immoral" to marry off a girl who reached puberty, because psychologically they will be just as mature as today's 18 year olds - and we don't say that its immoral for an 18 year old to marry and have sex do we? The 'maturity' of a girl in any given society is not determined by some arbitrary age, but what society deems to be the "right" age.

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 11:06pm:

In that hadith Aisha said she had seen her parents following Islam since she reached puberty, was her father Abu Bakr one of the first to revert to Islam? How old was Aisha in that hadith was she around 6 years of age or younger? You are the one claiming Aisha reached puberty at 6 , i doubt anyone believes that.

So you don't believe the word of AIsha? So where does the claim she was 6 and 9 come from? From Aisha herself. I'm more than happy to discard that and go with modern scholar's assessment that she was more like 16 when her marriage was consumated. But the point is, you clowns insist on the 9 year old claim because she said it. Now you are saying she can't be trusted. Selective much?  :P


Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 11:06pm:

I have cited them many times,you ignore them to defend your pedo profit.

No you haven't. The only evidence is the (mistaken) reference to her playing with dolls. If there is other evidence, wiki-islam has certainly missed it and none of the other islamophobes make reference to any other evidence.

So where is it Baron?


Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 11:06pm:

You were the one who brought up his other wives, Do you think Mohammad's methods of finding a wife are applicable in 2013 by attacking tribes with rape pillage and plunder, the Quran does tell you to follow the example he set

;D ;D this is hilarious. *YOU* keep bringing up the charge of pedophile, I'm just asking you to focus on that and provide some credible evidence. I brought up the other wives because it illustrates a pattern of behaviour that is *COMPLETELY* inconsistent with pedophilia. Attempting to divert the topic like you are here is just pathetic Baron, and it is basically an admission of defeat.


Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 11:06pm:

Falah said sex with 9 year old girls was ok because mo did it,

Specifying an age is wrong - the important thing is whether or not she has reached puberty. Aisha just happened to complete puberty by age 9. If muslims are claiming this means its ok to marry and have sex with 9 year olds, they are sorely mistaken.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 6:29am:

Soren wrote on Sep 24th, 2013 at 10:37pm: Exactly, Gandy, BACK THEN. Back then. You cannot take the sexual norms of a man and his teachings BACK THEN as a guide to sexual practices NOW. Its a question of morality, and morality is absolutely based on the context and the social norms of the time. The issue here is the psychological state of the girl, and whether or not they are mentally "mature" enough to be able to handle marriage and sex. The age of the girl is completely incidental and arbitrary. My point is that it is not "immoral" to marry off a girl who reached puberty, because psychologically they will be just as mature as today's 18 year olds - and we don't say that its immoral for an 18 year old to marry and have sex do we? The 'maturity' of a girl in any given society is not determined by some arbitrary age, but what society deems to be the "right" age.

This is, of course, massive bollocks on spindly stilts.

Assessing the "psychological state of the girl" in the 7th century is an eyewateringly stupid anachronism. As if Arabs or anyone had any notion of the 'psychological state of the girl", let alone made any decisions based on such a modern notion.

This is just to show the baselessness of your entire argument. And that's not even the main issue here.

What really matters is what even you admit: standards of what is acceptable and what isn't do change. And Islam is not exempt.
It is silly to insist that Mohammed's 7th century Arab ways are the best for everyone at all times and places. Yet thi is precisely the claim of Islam. Not the 'spirit' of Mohammed, not the intention of Mohammed, not the parables of Mohammed - but his actual deeds and actual saying concerning actual conduct. That's just stupid. Yet you are bound to perpetuate such stupidity.



And... er.... you seem to have forgotten the crucial point made earlier:

But  you are not able to repudiate the Muslims today who follow Mohammed's example back then. There's Islam's problem in a nutshell.

Just say it: 'Mohammed's example in this regard is not applicable for our society and our time. Doing what he did BACK THEN is not acceptable conduct here and now.'


Ignoring Islam's central problem will not make it go away, Gandy.

Soren wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 12:29pm:

What really matters is what even you admit: standards of what is acceptable and what isn't do change. And Islam is not exempt.

yes and no. In terms of the numerical age at which women are considered adults, yes it has changed. However it hasn't changed in the sense that the age of mental "maturity" has always been, and continues to be a rather arbitrary period of the child's life, determined solely by societal norms.

My view on an appropriate age of mental maturity (which for the purposes of this discussion we'll identify as the "right" age for marriage) is this: the human brain develops enough mental capacity to think and act like an adult by puberty. That is the benchmark, and biologically speaking, I don't believe there is a fundamental difference in mental maturity between a pubescent 9, 11 or 14 year old and a post-pubescent 18 or 21 year old - biologically speaking. There is of course massive environmental factors that alter this maturity level. 16 year olds in western society "feel" like children, because society reinforces the view that they are children. Of course as soon as they reach the magic age of 18 or 21, they magically "feel" like adults - all because of societal norms, nothing to do with a difference in mental development. On the other hand, a pubescent child in 7th century Arabia will "feel" like an adult because society reinforces the view that they are adults.

To emphasise my point, be aware that mental development does not stop until well into adulthood - mid 20s and beyond. Probably in another century or so we will be looking back and thinking how barbaric we were for allowing 18 year old "children" to get married and have sex. My point is, I defy any of you to find any evidence that a pubescent 9, 11 or 13 year old girl is biologically any less mentally mature than a 16 or 18 year old. Thus, as long as the society of the day says its ok to marry and have sex at puberty (assuming, as I do, that they are adequately mentally equipped to handle it), then I don't see how it would be traumatising for the girl, and therefore an immoral practice.

Soren wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 12:29pm:

Just say it: 'Mohammed's example in this regard is not applicable for our society and our time. Doing what he did BACK THEN is not acceptable conduct here and now

Muhammad's example in this regard was to wait until the girl is adequately mature - both mentally and physically - before engaging in any physical relations with her.

That is perfectly acceptable conduct here and now

Gandy, you are out of your mind. To defend Mohammed, you have to make yourself look like a complete fool.

A 9, 11, 13 year old girl is in no way ready for marriage in this or any other society, however many years she has been menstruating and regardless of her sexual experience. These are primary school kids. And for a 54 year old man to diddle primary school kids as long as they are "both mentally and physically" ready for it -what kind of insane BS is this???

Soren wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 2:02pm:

A 9, 11, 13 year old girl is in no way ready for marriage in this or any other society

Says who?

Ah thats right, our current society's own arbitrary and subjective norms.  :P


Soren wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 2:02pm:

And for a 54 year old man to diddle primary school kids

They didn't have "primary school kids" in those days - did you know that Soren?

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 2:39pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 2:02pm: A 9, 11, 13 year old girl is in no way ready for marriage in this or any other society Says who? Ah thats right, our current society's own arbitrary and subjective norms.  :P Soren wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 2:02pm: And for a 54 year old man to diddle primary school kids They didn't have "primary school kids" in those days - did you know that Soren?

So then it's OK for a toothless 54 year old goat to diddle primary school-AGED girls just because he said he was told by an angel in a cave that he is the last messenger of god and who told him it's OK FOR HIM to diddle primary school-AGED girls and to have 10 wives.

You are sick and dangerous.

True Colours wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 12:56am:

Soren wrote on Sep 24th, 2013 at 8:40pm: A 9 year old girl is a child, whether she has menstruated or not. A 12 year old boy doesn't become a man the day after he had his first nocturnal emission. Scientifically, that is the definition of adult - the ability to reproduce. Puberty has been the sign that mankind has used to define adulthood for millennia without too much dramas. It is a fairly recent phenomenon for politicians to decide that adulthood begins many years after puberty. The age of consent was 12 in the UK until 1875. The age of consent in the US state of Delaware was only 7 until recently. In 1895, there were four US states that set the age of consent at 10. Modern politicians can't even decide on a common age to begin adulthood. There are all sorts of different laws with the age of consent arbitrarily set at anywhere between13-18 in Europe and the US. In Australia, an 11 year-old can be charged with a crime, and in the US they can even be tried as adults (if they are non-white). It is silly to judge someone 1400 years ago by the fashion of today which has no basis in science.

Can you please cite this scientific definition of a child from a reputable scientific source and not some Islamic pseudoscience crap.

The USA and UK have statutory rape laws which means you will be thrown in jail if you have sex with a child under the age of 16 as she is deemed incapable of consent
If the age of consent is lower is does not mean adults can have sex with children they will be charged with statutory rape.

We outlawed child brides because young girls have a high death rate when giving birth,medical science says young girls are far more likely to suffer from Obstetric fistula with their underdeveloped bodies.

It is silly to claim Islam has anything to do with science, the only science in Islam is pseudoscience.

The non Islamic world has already gone through numerous deaths of child brides while giving birth that is why they are outlawed, the muslims think child brides are ok because they have to justify their pedo profit.


Quote:

A 12 year old Yemeni child bride died after struggling for 3 days in labor to give birth. Fawziya Youssef died of severe bleeding on friday while giving birth to a stillborn in the al Zahra hospital, 140 miles west of Sana. Youssef was only 11 when her father married her to a 24 year old man. This is one of the many cases that exist in Yemen sail al Quraishi,The reason behind it is the lack of education and awareness forcing many young girls into marriage in this very early age. www.cbsnews.com/2100-202_162-5307092.html

Fawziya Youssef died from an obstetric fistula,this is why science is against child brides.

Gandalf,TC,Brian,Hot Breath- Why do child brides have higher rates of Obstetric fistula?

Soren wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 6:08pm:

primary school-AGED girls

for God's sake Soren, she was not school aged - because they didn't have any schools!

Thats kinda the point. In today's society, we expect kids to complete certain things before we consider them mature enough for marriage - including finishing their education.

In Aisha's day, about the only life goal of a woman was to get married and bear kids. There was no reason to consider them "too young", culturally wise - apart from their physical/biological maturity. Plus the fact that people lived about 20-40 years less than we do now. And actually, Aisha broke the mould by becoming a reverred leader and scholar in her own right - not just a pretty housewife.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 1:31pm:

biologically speaking, I don't believe there is a fundamental difference in mental maturity between a pubescent 9, 11 or 14 year old and a post-pubescent 18 or 21 year old - biologically speaking. My point is, I defy any of you to find any evidence that a pubescent 9, 11 or 13 year old girl is biologically any less mentally mature than a 16 or 18 year old. Thus, as long as the society of the day says its ok to marry and have sex at puberty (assuming, as I do, that they are adequately mentally equipped to handle it), then I don't see how it would be traumatising for the girl, and therefore an immoral practice.

So we have established you dont have a problem with smacking a 9-11-14 year old as long as she has reached puberty and you consider them to have the mental maturity of a 18-21 year old and you dont consider it to be immoral.

There is plenty of evidence that says 9-11-13 year olds dont have the mental maturity, i suggest you go look for it instead of trying to justify pedophilia.

What societies say it is ok to marry and have sex at puberty in 2013, let me guess it is Islamic societies,Mohammad banged a 9 year old and muslims dont see anything wrong with that they consider him to be the perfect man and a role model to follow.

Before you make idiotic claims about puberty giving a woman physical maturity i suggest you research the obstetric fistula rates in child brides and read what medical science says about that.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 1:36pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 12:29pm: Just say it: 'Mohammed's example in this regard is not applicable for our society and our time. Doing what he did BACK THEN is not acceptable conduct here and now Muhammad's example in this regard was to wait until the girl is adequately mature - both mentally and physically - before engaging in any physical relations with her. That is perfectly acceptable conduct here and now

Having sex with a 9 year old child is not acceptable conduct in the non Islamic world we will throw you in jail for that.

only a muslim will believe a 9 year old child is physically and mentally capable of being a bride and having sex.

Soren wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 2:02pm:

Gandy, you are out of your mind. To defend Mohammed, you have to make yourself look like a complete fool. A 9, 11, 13 year old girl is in no way ready for marriage in this or any other society, however many years she has been menstruating and regardless of her sexual experience. These are primary school kids. And for a 54 year old man to diddle primary school kids as long as they are "both mentally and physically" ready for it -what kind of insane BS is this???

That has been the normal marriage age for 99% of human history.


Just because some politician says that 18 is the right age in 2013 doesn't mean people will think that way forever.

Politicians used to think it was good to steal Aboriginal children away from their parents too, but how does tha policy look 100 years later?.

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 6:34pm:

True Colours wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 12:56am: Soren wrote on Sep 24th, 2013 at 8:40pm: A 9 year old girl is a child, whether she has menstruated or not. A 12 year old boy doesn't become a man the day after he had his first nocturnal emission. Scientifically, that is the definition of adult - the ability to reproduce. Puberty has been the sign that mankind has used to define adulthood for millennia without too much dramas. It is a fairly recent phenomenon for politicians to decide that adulthood begins many years after puberty. The age of consent was 12 in the UK until 1875. res=9B01EEDC113AE533A25756C1A9669D94649ED7CF]The age of consent in the US state of Delaware was only 7 until recently. In 1895, there were four US states that set the age of consent at 10.[/url] Modern politicians can't even decide on a common age to begin adulthood. There are all sorts of different laws with the age of consent arbitrarily set at anywhere between13-18 in Europe and the US. In Australia, an 11 year-old can be charged with a crime, and in the US they can even be tried as adults (if they are non-white). It is silly to judge someone 1400 years ago by the fashion of today which has no basis in science. Can you please cite this scientific definition of a child from a reputable scientific source and not some Islamic pseudoscience crap. The USA and UK have statutory rape laws which means you will be thrown in jail if you have sex with a child under the age of 16 as she is deemed incapable of consent If the age of consent is lower is does not mean adults can have sex with children they will be charged with statutory rape. We outlawed child brides because young girls have a high death rate when giving birth,medical science says young girls are far more likely to suffer from Obstetric fistula with their underdeveloped bodies. It is silly to claim Islam has anything to do with science, the only science in Islam is pseudoscience. The non Islamic world has already gone through numerous deaths of child brides while giving birth that is why they are outlawed, the muslims think child brides are ok because they have to justify their pedo profit. Quote: A 12 year old Yemeni child bride died after struggling for 3 days in labor to give birth. Fawziya Youssef died of severe bleeding on friday while giving birth to a stillborn in the al Zahra hospital, 140 miles west of Sana. Youssef was only 11 when her father married her to a 24 year old man. This is one of the many cases that exist in Yemen sail al Quraishi,The reason behind it is the lack of education and awareness forcing many young girls into marriage in this very early age. [url Fawziya Youssef died from an obstetric fistula,this is why science is against child brides. Gandalf,TC,Brian,Hot Breath- Why do child brides have higher rates of Obstetric fistula?

Fistulas have very little to do with islam.

Most obstetric fistulas are happening in Africa and is one of the highest in Christian African countries.

Obstetric fistulas are very low in middle east countries.

In  Tanzania they did a study of 54 ladies with fistulas and it  showed that 2/3 where Christian and 1/3 were muslim.

Its hardly a muslim issue.

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 6:48pm:

What societies say it is ok to marry and have sex at puberty in 2013

I hope none. Thanks for entirely missing my point.

By the way, hows the "evidence" that Aisha was pre-pubescent at time of consummation going Baron?

wally1 wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 6:55pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 6:34pm: True Colours wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 12:56am: Soren wrote on Sep 24th, 2013 at 8:40pm: A 9 year old girl is a child, whether she has menstruated or not. A 12 year old boy doesn't become a man the day after he had his first nocturnal emission. Scientifically, that is the definition of adult - the ability to reproduce. Puberty has been the sign that mankind has used to define adulthood for millennia without too much dramas. It is a fairly recent phenomenon for politicians to decide that adulthood begins many years after puberty. The age of consent was 12 in the UK until 1875. res=9B01EEDC113AE533A25756C1A9669D94649ED7CF]The age of consent in the US state of Delaware was only 7 until recently. In 1895, there were four US states that set the age of consent at 10.[/url] Modern politicians can't even decide on a common age to begin adulthood. There are all sorts of different laws with the age of consent arbitrarily set at anywhere between13-18 in Europe and the US. In Australia, an 11 year-old can be charged with a crime, and in the US they can even be tried as adults (if they are non-white). It is silly to judge someone 1400 years ago by the fashion of today which has no basis in science. Can you please cite this scientific definition of a child from a reputable scientific source and not some Islamic pseudoscience crap. The USA and UK have statutory rape laws which means you will be thrown in jail if you have sex with a child under the age of 16 as she is deemed incapable of consent If the age of consent is lower is does not mean adults can have sex with children they will be charged with statutory rape. We outlawed child brides because young girls have a high death rate when giving birth,medical science says young girls are far more likely to suffer from Obstetric fistula with their underdeveloped bodies. It is silly to claim Islam has anything to do with science, the only science in Islam is pseudoscience. The non Islamic world has already gone through numerous deaths of child brides while giving birth that is why they are outlawed, the muslims think child brides are ok because they have to justify their pedo profit. Quote: A 12 year old Yemeni child bride died after struggling for 3 days in labor to give birth. Fawziya Youssef died of severe bleeding on friday while giving birth to a stillborn in the al Zahra hospital, 140 miles west of Sana. Youssef was only 11 when her father married her to a 24 year old man. This is one of the many cases that exist in Yemen sail al Quraishi,The reason behind it is the lack of education and awareness forcing many young girls into marriage in this very early age. [url Fawziya Youssef died from an obstetric fistula,this is why science is against child brides. Gandalf,TC,Brian,Hot Breath- Why do child brides have higher rates of Obstetric fistula? Fistulas have very little to do with islam. Most obstetric fistulas are happening in Africa and is one of the highest in Christian African countries. Obstetric fistulas are very low in middle east countries. In  Tanzania they did a study of 54 ladies with fistulas and it  showed that 2/3 where Christian and 1/3 were muslim. Its hardly a muslim issue.

Do you think the prevalence of young girls dying from fistulas had something to do with why we dont allow child brides in the west or are there other reasons why child brides were outlawed?

You never criticise Islam and always deflect to christians in an Islamic forum are you a muslim wally?

Can you cite that Tanzania study?
A lot of fistulas happen in Ethipoia which is 60/40 with christians and muslims,we know muslims follow a profit (allah does demand 20% of all war booty) who had sex with his 9 year old wife and consider him to be a perfect man, did jesus ever have sex with or marry any children?

The only people defending child brides in this forum are muslims and their apologists.

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 10:15pm:

wally1 wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 6:55pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 6:34pm: True Colours wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 12:56am: Soren wrote on Sep 24th, 2013 at 8:40pm: A 9 year old girl is a child, whether she has menstruated or not. A 12 year old boy doesn't become a man the day after he had his first nocturnal emission. Scientifically, that is the definition of adult - the ability to reproduce. Puberty has been the sign that mankind has used to define adulthood for millennia without too much dramas. It is a fairly recent phenomenon for politicians to decide that adulthood begins many years after puberty. The age of consent was 12 in the UK until 1875. res=9B01EEDC113AE533A25756C1A9669D94649ED7CF]The age of consent in the US state of Delaware was only 7 until recently. In 1895, there were four US states that set the age of consent at 10.[/url] Modern politicians can't even decide on a common age to begin adulthood. There are all sorts of different laws with the age of consent arbitrarily set at anywhere between13-18 in Europe and the US. In Australia, an 11 year-old can be charged with a crime, and in the US they can even be tried as adults (if they are non-white). It is silly to judge someone 1400 years ago by the fashion of today which has no basis in science. Can you please cite this scientific definition of a child from a reputable scientific source and not some Islamic pseudoscience crap. The USA and UK have statutory rape laws which means you will be thrown in jail if you have sex with a child under the age of 16 as she is deemed incapable of consent If the age of consent is lower is does not mean adults can have sex with children they will be charged with statutory rape. We outlawed child brides because young girls have a high death rate when giving birth,medical science says young girls are far more likely to suffer from Obstetric fistula with their underdeveloped bodies. It is silly to claim Islam has anything to do with science, the only science in Islam is pseudoscience. The non Islamic world has already gone through numerous deaths of child brides while giving birth that is why they are outlawed, the muslims think child brides are ok because they have to justify their pedo profit. Quote: A 12 year old Yemeni child bride died after struggling for 3 days in labor to give birth. Fawziya Youssef died of severe bleeding on friday while giving birth to a stillborn in the al Zahra hospital, 140 miles west of Sana. Youssef was only 11 when her father married her to a 24 year old man. This is one of the many cases that exist in Yemen sail al Quraishi,The reason behind it is the lack of education and awareness forcing many young girls into marriage in this very early age. [url Fawziya Youssef died from an obstetric fistula,this is why science is against child brides. Gandalf,TC,Brian,Hot Breath- Why do child brides have higher rates of Obstetric fistula? Fistulas have very little to do with islam. Most obstetric fistulas are happening in Africa and is one of the highest in Christian African countries. Obstetric fistulas are very low in middle east countries. In  Tanzania they did a study of 54 ladies with fistulas and it  showed that 2/3 where Christian and 1/3 were muslim. Its hardly a muslim issue. Do you think the prevalence of young girls dying from fistulas had something to do with why we dont allow child brides in the west or are there other reasons why child brides were outlawed? You never criticise Islam and always deflect to christians in an Islamic forum are you a muslim wally? Can you cite that Tanzania study? A lot of fistulas happen in Ethipoia which is 60/40 with christians and muslims,we know muslims follow a profit (allah does demand 20% of all war booty) who had sex with his 9 year old wife and consider him to be a perfect man, did jesus ever have sex with or marry any children? The only people defending child brides in this forum are muslims and their apologists.

1400-2000 years ago, even longer, it was a normal acceptable things for men be they muslims, jews and christians. to marry children.It was promoted in society and was not scorned at or looked at in a negative practice.It was a societal norm.



Jesus came 500 years before Prophet Mohamed, and it was only in the last 150 years that western and Christian civilsations  have abolished child marriage.

So islam may take bit more time to get over the practice.With proper education maybe they will change.

Regardless of any religion, if somebody came to me wanting to marry a 6,9,11 year old girl etc I would talk them out of it.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 6:57pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 6:48pm: What societies say it is ok to marry and have sex at puberty in 2013 I hope none. Thanks for entirely missing my point. By the way, hows the "evidence" that Aisha was pre-pubescent at time of consummation going Baron?

You still have not produced real evidence Aisha reached puberty at 6 years of age,do you think any non muslim will believe that, even sheik Munajid from Islam qa disagrees with you on puberty, do i have to cite that again or can you scroll back and read it.

So how old was Aisha when the Ethiopians were playing in the courtyard of the mosque, she was with the profit?
www.sunnah.com/bukhari/67/169

Her dolls were with her when she moved into the profits house at age 9 and you claim she reached puberty about 3 years earlier.
www.sunnah.com/muslim/16/83

Sunnah.com even has on their website Aisha had not reached the age of puberty, you claim she reached puberty at 6  ;D
www.sunnah.com/bukhari/78/157

Does Mohammad tell his wives every time they have their menses this is what alllah has ordained for you,why did he advise her on what to do surely if she had her menses before this she would know exactly what she could do,Aisha had her first menses just before the very first Hajj which makes her about 15 years of age,Mo was pedo.
www.sunnah.com/bukhari/6/1

What does this verse from the Quran mean Gandalf, what does Allah mean by those who have not menstruated ?
www.quran.com/65/4

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 10:15pm:

Do you think the prevalence of young girls dying from fistulas had something to do with why we dont allow child brides in the west or are there other reasons why child brides were outlawed?

No.

Fistulas are related to poverty and malnutrition. They tend to be prevalent in countries with high levels of poverty.



Quote:

Less than 6 in 10 women in developing countries give birth with any trained professional, such as a midwife or a doctor.  When complications arise, as they do in approximately 15% of all births, there is no one available to treat the woman, leading to disabling injuries like fistula, and even death. The root causes of fistula are grinding poverty and the low status of women and girls.  In developing countries, the poverty and malnutrition in children contributes to the condition of stunting, where the girl skeleton, and therefore pelvis as well, do not fully mature.  This stunted condition can contribute to obstructed labor, and therefore fistula. http://www.fistulafoundation.org/whatisfistula/faqs.html

The age of consent laws were established in the West due to sections of society concerned by the prevalence of corruption involving prostitution and fornication of the youth in the permissive Western culture.


Quote:

Female reformers and advocates of social purity initiated a campaign in 1885 in the United States... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

The laws were initially seen as ways of tackling rampant fornication and prostitution in the West, rather than curbing marriage of young people.

wally1 wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 10:31pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 10:15pm: wally1 wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 6:55pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 6:34pm: True Colours wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 12:56am: Soren wrote on Sep 24th, 2013 at 8:40pm: A 9 year old girl is a child, whether she has menstruated or not. A 12 year old boy doesn't become a man the day after he had his first nocturnal emission. Scientifically, that is the definition of adult - the ability to reproduce. Puberty has been the sign that mankind has used to define adulthood for millennia without too much dramas. It is a fairly recent phenomenon for politicians to decide that adulthood begins many years after puberty. The age of consent was 12 in the UK until 1875. res=9B01EEDC113AE533A25756C1A9669D94649ED7CF]The age of consent in the US state of Delaware was only 7 until recently. In 1895, there were four US states that set the age of consent at 10.[/url] Modern politicians can't even decide on a common age to begin adulthood. There are all sorts of different laws with the age of consent arbitrarily set at anywhere between13-18 in Europe and the US. In Australia, an 11 year-old can be charged with a crime, and in the US they can even be tried as adults (if they are non-white). It is silly to judge someone 1400 years ago by the fashion of today which has no basis in science. Can you please cite this scientific definition of a child from a reputable scientific source and not some Islamic pseudoscience crap. The USA and UK have statutory rape laws which means you will be thrown in jail if you have sex with a child under the age of 16 as she is deemed incapable of consent If the age of consent is lower is does not mean adults can have sex with children they will be charged with statutory rape. We outlawed child brides because young girls have a high death rate when giving birth,medical science says young girls are far more likely to suffer from Obstetric fistula with their underdeveloped bodies. It is silly to claim Islam has anything to do with science, the only science in Islam is pseudoscience. The non Islamic world has already gone through numerous deaths of child brides while giving birth that is why they are outlawed, the muslims think child brides are ok because they have to justify their pedo profit. Quote: A 12 year old Yemeni child bride died after struggling for 3 days in labor to give birth. Fawziya Youssef died of severe bleeding on friday while giving birth to a stillborn in the al Zahra hospital, 140 miles west of Sana. Youssef was only 11 when her father married her to a 24 year old man. This is one of the many cases that exist in Yemen sail al Quraishi,The reason behind it is the lack of education and awareness forcing many young girls into marriage in this very early age. [url Fawziya Youssef died from an obstetric fistula,this is why science is against child brides. Gandalf,TC,Brian,Hot Breath- Why do child brides have higher rates of Obstetric fistula? Fistulas have very little to do with islam. Most obstetric fistulas are happening in Africa and is one of the highest in Christian African countries. Obstetric fistulas are very low in middle east countries. In  Tanzania they did a study of 54 ladies with fistulas and it  showed that 2/3 where Christian and 1/3 were muslim. Its hardly a muslim issue. Do you think the prevalence of young girls dying from fistulas had something to do with why we dont allow child brides in the west or are there other reasons why child brides were outlawed? You never criticise Islam and always deflect to christians in an Islamic forum are you a muslim wally? Can you cite that Tanzania study? A lot of fistulas happen in Ethipoia which is 60/40 with christians and muslims,we know muslims follow a profit (allah does demand 20% of all war booty) who had sex with his 9 year old wife and consider him to be a perfect man, did jesus ever have sex with or marry any children? The only people defending child brides in this forum are muslims and their apologists. 1400-2000 years ago, even longer, it was a normal acceptable things for men be they muslims, jews and christians. to marry children.It was promoted in society and was not scorned at or looked at in a negative practice.It was a societal norm. Jesus came 500 years before Prophet Mohamed, and it was only in the last 150 years that western and Christian civilsations  have abolished child marriage. So islam may take bit more time to get over the practice.With proper education maybe they will change. Regardless of any religion, if somebody came to me wanting to marry a 6,9,11 year old girl etc I would talk them out of it.

We can look at Mohammad's first wife and say that was also a societal norm of that time,his first wife Khadija was in her 40's and he was mid 20's when they married and he took no other wives or sex slaves while they were married,
Khadija like Aisha lived to her mid 60's.
We can also say women had more rights in pre Islamic Arabia compared to today where a female cannot leave her house without a mahram.

So why did we abolish child brides, were lots of young brides dying while giving birth?

True Colours wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 10:46pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 10:15pm: Do you think the prevalence of young girls dying from fistulas had something to do with why we dont allow child brides in the west or are there other reasons why child brides were outlawed? No. Fistulas are related to poverty and malnutrition. They tend to be prevalent in countries with high levels of poverty. Quote: Less than 6 in 10 women in developing countries give birth with any trained professional, such as a midwife or a doctor.  When complications arise, as they do in approximately 15% of all births, there is no one available to treat the woman, leading to disabling injuries like fistula, and even death. The root causes of fistula are grinding poverty and the low status of women and girls.  In developing countries, the poverty and malnutrition in children contributes to the condition of stunting, where the girl skeleton, and therefore pelvis as well, do not fully mature.  This stunted condition can contribute to obstructed labor, and therefore fistula. http://www.fistulafoundation.org/whatisfistula/faqs.html The age of consent laws were established in the West due to sections of society concerned by the prevalence of corruption involving prostitution and fornication of the youth in the permissive Western culture. [quote]Female reformers and advocates of social purity initiated a campaign in 1885 in the United States... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

The laws were initially seen as ways of tackling rampant fornication and prostitution in the West, rather than curbing marriage of young people.
[/quote]



So what about the statutory rape laws how did they come about TC?

So why did this girl get a fistula TC, from your link-
www.fistulafoundation.org/whatisfistula/owspopups/gul.html

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 10:59pm:

We can also say women had more rights in pre Islamic Arabia compared to today where a female cannot leave her house without a mahram.

More BS.

In which country, can a woman not leave the house with a mahram?

I have visited 6 Muslim countries, and have not found that to be the case.

In fact, I found that the women in Muslim countries seemed more confident in going out by themselves at night than women in Australia do.

I think it fair to say that Islam has a problematic relationship with women when compared to modern western secular views that women should be treated equally, in fact going so far as positive discrimination. 

Doesn't include of course all Islam before the usual mouth breathers start hyperventilating but enough to make it a concern, that is if you are at all concerned as the luvvies endlessly profess they are, with the equality of women.

Islam in contrast tends to define separate roles, rights and responsibilities which wearily I agree Christianity does as well, but I aint in the business of hypocrisy and excusing one set of abuse by pointing at another set of abuse and saying they do it as well, which seems to be the usual level of debate.

I leave that crap for the primary schoolyard. 

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 10:37pm:

You still have not produced real evidence Aisha reached puberty at 6 years of age,do you think any non muslim will believe that, even sheik Munajid from Islam qa disagrees with you on puberty, do i have to cite that again or can you scroll back and read it.

Um - a sahih hadith that has Aisha in her own words stating that she had reached puberty before she moved in with the Prophet is not "real evidence"? Please explain that one.


Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 10:37pm:

So how old was Aisha when the Ethiopians were playing in the courtyard of the mosque, she was with the profit? www.sunnah.com/bukhari/67/169

The hadith is called "Nikka" - presumably referring to when Aisha was betrothed to the Prophet. No one is disputing that she was prepubescent at the time of betrothal. You're just digging yourself further in here.


Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 10:37pm:

Her dolls were with her when she moved into the profits house at age 9 and you claim she reached puberty about 3 years earlier.

Are you trying to be funny? How many times have I dealt with this before?

Try and focus for once Baron: prove to me that islamic law forbids the possession of dolls by adults that are not used for playing. We know Aisha left Mecca with her dolls - even though, in her own words, she had already reached puberty. She obviously kept them for sentimental value - nothing in islamic law forbids that.


Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 10:37pm:

Sunnah.com even has on their website Aisha had not reached the age of puberty, you claim she reached puberty at 6

Newsflash: The Prophet used to visit Aisha at her parents home before the marriage was consumated. We know she reached puberty between the time of Nikkah until the time of consummation. There is no evidence whatsoever that that hadith is referring to a time after the consummation.

You don't have a leg to stand on. What a buggered up mindset you must have - that you have to keep convincing yourself of this dreadful smear against all the evidence. You may disagree with young post-pubescent girls having sex - that is fine, but the idea that he is a pedophile - as in someone who a) lusts after prepubescent girls and b) molests prepubescent girls is completely dead in the water. The game is up Baron, I'm sorry to say, you just look ridiculous attempting to maintain this thoroughly debunked smear. I can't really explain it - it seems you just have a pathological need to hate.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 7:50am:

You don't have a leg to stand on.

LOL, all I have read is you performing all sorts of gymnastics and contortions to excuse and defend a bloke who very probably bonked a 9 year old girl.

You should have left it with a "yeah' times were different then" and maybe you wouldn't be looking so ridiculous.

Ahhhh religious nutters, gotta love the way they defend their idols. 

Datalife, the debate is whether or not Muhammad had sex with a prepubescent girl. Thats all.

The only gymnastics and contortions going on is from people like Baron in their desperate attempt to give this smear some legs.

He did *NOT* have sex with any prepubescent girl, the evidence is quite clear.

Datalife wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 10:29am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26th, 2013 at 7:50am: You don't have a leg to stand on. LOL, all I have read is you performing all sorts of gymnastics and contortions to excuse and defend a bloke who very probably bonked a 9 year old girl. You should have left it with a "yeah' times were different then"

You mean like Brian did when he explained that social and sexual beliefs were very different 1400 years ago?

Amazing that you'd agree with him...   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 6:44pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 6:08pm: primary school-AGED girls for God's sake Soren, she was not school aged - because they didn't have any schools! Thats kinda the point. In today's society, we expect kids to complete certain things before we consider them mature enough for marriage - including finishing their education.

SO therefore the norms and standards of 7th century Arabia do not necessarily apply in today's Western societies.




But Mohammed, the best of men ever, endorsed and examplified those 7th century standards.

Therefore this example and standard set by Mohammed doesn't apply in today's Westerns societies.

Therefore Mohammed's example and standards are not for all ages and places.

Uh-oh!! Could it be that there are some other eternal directives by the final prophet that do not apply?  Oh yes, there are many.

And this is precisely why you are hedging and evading - once you admit that this particular example set by Mohammed is not applicable to all places and times, the door is open to question every other example and standard set by him.  But will happen to Islam if it is subjected to critical analysis?

Reason will be placed above Islamic law. And then good-bye Submission.

|dev|null wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 12:44pm:

Datalife wrote on Sep 26th, 2013 at 10:29am: polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26th, 2013 at 7:50am: You don't have a leg to stand on. LOL, all I have read is you performing all sorts of gymnastics and contortions to excuse and defend a bloke who very probably bonked a 9 year old girl. You should have left it with a "yeah' times were different then"  You mean like Brian did when he explained that social and sexual beliefs were very different 1400 years ago? Amazing that you'd agree with him...   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

It is a rare instance of him being right.  I noted the same thing about rape in a thread yonks ago, that it was idiotic to compare past behaviours to modern behaviours.  I gave the example it was once acceptable to sack a town if it refused a surrender, today it would be a war crime.

Which is why I think it laughable and I mock you when Brian and your own silly self try to excuse modern atrocities by citing examples from the Crusades.   8-)

Datalife wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 2:08pm:

|dev|null wrote on Sep 26th, 2013 at 12:44pm: Datalife wrote on Sep 26th, 2013 at 10:29am: polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26th, 2013 at 7:50am: You don't have a leg to stand on. LOL, all I have read is you performing all sorts of gymnastics and contortions to excuse and defend a bloke who very probably bonked a 9 year old girl. You should have left it with a "yeah' times were different then"  You mean like Brian did when he explained that social and sexual beliefs were very different 1400 years ago? Amazing that you'd agree with him...   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D It is a rare instance of him being right.  I noted the same thing about rape in a thread yonks ago, that it was idiotic to compare past behaviours to modern behaviours.  I gave the example it was once acceptable to sack a town if it refused a surrender, today it would be a war crime. [/quote ] I thought you didn't believe in the concept. How ironic that you'd admit that Brian was right!  A first!  He'll have to frame it, if he can read it!   ;D ;D  ;D ;D ;D [quote] Which is why I think it laughable and I mock you when Brian and your own silly self try to excuse modern atrocities by citing examples from the Crusades.   8-)

Would you like to cite some examples of that having happened or is it just your antipathy to those you disagree with?   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

|dev|null wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 2:44pm:

Would you like to cite some examples of that having happened or is it just your antipathy to those you disagree with?   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Lucky for you, you know that those examples were on a forum that is now extinct, along with your claim to have the genius 178 IQ.   ;D  which still amuses me cos you hide it so well. 

But no matter, Brian is a slow learner and no doubt he will at some stage be trotting out examples from the crusades to excuse the actions of modern day beardy weirdys.

Soren wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 1:08pm:

SO therefore the norms and standards of 7th century Arabia do not necessarily apply in today's Western societies. But Mohammed, the best of men ever, endorsed and examplified those 7th century standards.

That is a logical fallacy.

The "norms" and "standards" that Muhammad endorsed was not the numerical age of marriage, but the psychological maturity level of the girl. I already argued that biologically speaking there is no meaningful difference in mental maturity between a 9, 11 or 13 pubescent girl and a 18 year old pubescent girl. If you can get your head around that, you will see there is no moral difference between Muhammad's practice, and today's practice. Obviously there would be a *HUGE* moral issue for a 9 year old pubescent girl to marry in today's society.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 3:37pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 26th, 2013 at 1:08pm: SO therefore the norms and standards of 7th century Arabia do not necessarily apply in today's Western societies. But Mohammed, the best of men ever, endorsed and examplified those 7th century standards. That is a logical fallacy. The "norms" and "standards" that Muhammad endorsed was not the numerical age of marriage, but the psychological maturity level of the girl. I already argued that biologically speaking there is no meaningful difference in mental maturity between a 9, 11 or 13 pubescent girl and a 18 year old pubescent girl. If you can get your head around that, you will see there is no moral difference between Muhammad's practice, and today's practice. Obviously there would be a *HUGE* moral issue for a 9 year old pubescent girl to marry in today's society.

No logical fallacy at all.  Your reasoning is meaningless, however many times you repeat it.

The standard of "psychological maturity level of the girl" is completely irrelevant if she is below the numerical age of consent. Today, Mohammed would go to jail as a pedophile if he married a girl under the numerical age of consent. Your stupid contortions about mental age and pubescence are completely irrelevant.

You try to promote them because the crux of the matter is - Mohammed's laws on marriage and consent and the laws of today's Western democracies are incompatible. 
And if there is incompatibility here, there are others - therefore a critical examination of Islam and its submission to Western law is quite OK.
But that just opens up a pandora's box for Islam which is quite unacceptable to a lot of Muslims - subjecting Islam to reason and not accepting it as the eternal will of god.
That way lies wholesale reformation and the doctrine of Islam's immutability (its cornerstone dogma) goes out the window.
A house of cards stuff for Islam, this.

Soren wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 5:24pm:

he standard of "psychological maturity level of the girl" is completely irrelevant if she is below the numerical age of consent.

Utterly absurd.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 6:35pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 26th, 2013 at 5:24pm: he standard of "psychological maturity level of the girl" is completely irrelevant if she is below the numerical age of consent. Utterly absurd.

You are out of your mind. Dangerously so, because you know I have cornered you. Now you are just flailing your arms absurdly.

That is the law of the land - you are diddling an under-age girl, you are a paedophile, Mohammed's example or not. Mohammed is a paedophile under current Australian law, so do not follow his example, do not advocate folloing his example, no matter what stupid psychological or biological maturity BS you parrot. There is no exemption  for kiddie fiddling on f religious discrimination grounds. smacking underage girls by 54 year old 'gabriel told me it's OK' prophets and his followers is not on.

Repeat out loud. You'd better internalise it as a case of Islam needing to submit to the law of the land. As PB would say it, possibly speaking Islamically, don't fight it, submit to it.

So tell me Soren, whats the magic age at which girls suddenly and magically change from "too immature" to marry to "mature enough" to marry - that is completely independent of any environmental factors?

The world according to Soren: girls go through puberty, then at some fixed point after that something magical happens - that is entirely determined by the calendar year - that inexplicably makes girls into adults - and therefore "ready" for marriage.

:P

How good is Australian law? Some people carry on as though our politicians are infallible geniuses thinking up flawless laws.

What has occurred according to Australian law:

*Aboriginal children stolen from their parents

*Racist white Australian policy implemented

*Criminalised homelessness

*Children could buy cigarettes

*Retarded people and ex-convicts are forced to vote

*Illegal in Victoria to change a lightbulb (without electrical license)

*Illegal in Victoria to wear pink hot pants on Sunday after midday.

*Taxi drivers required to carry a bale of hay in Queensland

*wearing slippers in public after sunset is illegal in Victoria

*illegal to walk on the right-hand side of a footpath in Queensland

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:57pm:

So tell me Soren, whats the magic age at which girls suddenly and magically change from "too immature" to marry to "mature enough" to marry - that is completely independent of any environmental factors? The world according to Soren: girls go through puberty, then at some fixed point after that something magical happens - that is entirely determined by the calendar year - that inexplicably makes girls into adults - and therefore "ready" for marriage. :P

Not according to Soren. According to the law. The law that you are subject to.

Not Mohammed's law. Australia's law. Try to disregard it and follow Mohammed's example and see what happens to you.

True Colours wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 9:11pm:

How good is Australian law? Some people carry on as though our politicians are infallible geniuses thinking up flawless laws. What has occurred according to Australian law: *Aboriginal children stolen from their parents *Racist white Australian policy implemented *Criminalised homelessness *Children could buy cigarettes *Retarded people and ex-convicts are forced to vote *Illegal in Victoria to change a lightbulb (without electrical license) *Illegal in Victoria to wear pink hot pants on Sunday after midday. *Taxi drivers required to carry a bale of hay in Queensland *wearing slippers in public after sunset is illegal in Victoria *illegal to walk on the right-hand side of a footpath in Queensland

So apply for a passport and bugger off. The law allows you to.

How good is THAT?

Soren wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 11:26pm:

Not according to Soren. According to the law. The law that you are subject to. Not Mohammed's law. Australia's law. Try to disregard it and follow Mohammed's example and see what happens to you.

:P righto then.

You are so far off the mark, clearly there's no point in trying to explain it further to you.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 7:47am:

Soren wrote on Sep 26th, 2013 at 11:26pm: Not according to Soren. According to the law. The law that you are subject to. Not Mohammed's law. Australia's law. Try to disregard it and follow Mohammed's example and see what happens to you. :P righto then. You are so far off the mark, clearly there's no point in trying to explain it further to you.

You are cornered Gandy. At this point, maintaining the Mohamedan support means advocating criminal behaviour - so you start flailing your arms about .

This is a good thread, friends. It is educational for all. In this countries we have the age. You must not go under that age, friends, it is the law.

Is still okay for you, old boy? You are over this age, yes?

Maybe you can provide milk for the mothers.

Freedom or Islam?

http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Vlaams-Belang-Freedom-or-Islam-poster.jpg

Words from top down:
stoning,
rape,
whore,
slut,
provocative.
moderate Islam,
sharia compliant.


Women against islamisation in Belgium.

http://www.demotivation.us/media/demotivators/demotivation.us_Why-priests-dont-use-condoms-Because-little-boys-dont-get-pregnant_133096409830.jpg


http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4oyblPf9S1qedj2ho1_500.jpg



http://www.priestsrapeboys.com/images/082010.gif


http://www.spygun.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/priest-perv.jpg

I am not a priest.
You are a Muslim.

Soren wrote on Sep 28^th, 2013 at 8:30pm:

I am not a priest. You are a Muslim.

You remain very silent about the failings of your religion's clergy though...   ::)

All your venom is reserved for innocent Muslims and their beliefs.

You are a bigot, Soren. 

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 28^th, 2013 at 9:02pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 28th, 2013 at 8:30pm: I am not a priest. You are a Muslim. You remain very silent about the failings of your religion's clergy though...   ::) All your venom is reserved for innocent Muslims and their beliefs. You are a bigot, Soren.

I have no religion, Brain, let alone clergy.

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 28^th, 2013 at 9:02pm:

You are a bigot, Soren.

This is such a shop-worn, idiotic and lazy charge as to be a shiboleth for identifying all who utter it  - yes, you, in case this is too complex a sentence for you so far - as unbelieaveably stupid, unthinking, reflexive buggers.

You have no idea, no argument, no reasoning - so you fire off this tired and stupid little slur like the rancorous little preener you are.

Brian Ross wrote:
Quote:

You remain very silent about the failings of your religion's clergy though...    All your venom is reserved for innocent Muslims and their beliefs. You are a bigot, Soren.

Priests commit pedophilia, Police commit pedophilia, Lawyers commit pedophilia, Scout Masters commit pedophilia, Teachers commit pedophilia, Politicians commit pedophilia, Bankers commit pedophilia, Atheists commit pedophilia etc.etc. on and on it goes through all walks of life.

However all of the above in our secular western societies are breaking the law, plus any who claim Christian faith are disobeying their professed beliefs, therefore they are rightly treated as criminals.

MUSLIMS COMMIT PEDOPHILIA LEGALLY IN ISLAMIC THEOCRACIES, BECAUSE muhammad WAS A PEDOPHILE AND HIS EXAMPLE IS PERFECT FOR MODERN DAY SOCIETY.

Indeed.

But stark the contrast may be, it will continue to elude Brain et al. He will look at everything and anything but the central point, spelled out for him in big black letters.

The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus' mother was married to a pedophile (if we use the modern politician's definition of the word).


Quote:

A year after his wife's death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm

:D :D :D :D


The Catholic Encyclopedia tells that Jewish maidens were routinely married at 12 years of age.

Jewish maidens were considered marriageable at the age of twelve years and six months, though the actual age of the bride varied with circumstances.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

And yet - in the West you can't marry if you are under the age of consent, no matter what the Church say about Mary and Joseph.

Separation of state and church, innit, swivel-eyed looney.

The Lord has a clear opinion on women's place in the world relative to men:

"The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."
1 Corinthians 14:34-35

"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control."
1 Timothy 2:11-15

"To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”
Genesis 3:16

"The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, If anyone makes a special vow to the Lord involving the valuation of persons, then the valuation of a male from twenty years old up to sixty years old shall be fifty shekels of silver, according to the shekel of the sanctuary. If the person is a female, the valuation shall be thirty shekels."
Leviticus 27:1-7

In other words, women are to be submissive, not learn anything, obey their husbands at all times, and are worth 3/5ths as much as men

So has the pedophile claim been officially abandoned?

A couple of things.

None of what Wally quotes is from Jesus. Two are from Paul, others from the OT. Jesus wasn't diddling little girls. Mohammed was.
In the West, Christianity is not the basis of the law. In 'Muslim lands' the Koran is. Mohammed is treated as a role model in everything, including child diddling.

Christianity has had a long period of reformation. The submission of women is not taught from any pulpit. None of what was quoted is actually treated as the law, unlike whatever is in the Koran. And there is no way for Islam to repudiate Mohammed. Reforming Islam is to kill to off.
Islam is literalist and performative. Just look at the women, look at how they are treated. Look at the ongoing practice of child brides in Islam.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 7^th, 2013 at 10:28am:

So has the pedophile claim been officially abandoned?

By 7th century standards, he wasn't a paedophile.
By 21st century Australian / Western standards (which you seem to support in this case), he was.

What to do if you are a Muslim? Side with the society you live in or with the 7th century? Your dilemma in a nutshell.

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 5:13pm:

By 7th century standards, he wasn't a paedophile. By 21st century Australian / Western standards (which you seem to support in this case), he was.

nope. Look up the definition of pedophile Soren, and explain to me how The Prophet fits the bill - even by 21st century standards.

wally1 wrote on Oct 7^th, 2013 at 9:11am:

The Lord has a clear opinion on women's place in the world relative to men: "The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control." 1 Timothy 2:11-15 "To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” Genesis 3:16 "The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, If anyone makes a special vow to the Lord involving the valuation of persons, then the valuation of a male from twenty years old up to sixty years old shall be fifty shekels of silver, according to the shekel of the sanctuary. If the person is a female, the valuation shall be thirty shekels." Leviticus 27:1-7 In other words, women are to be submissive, not learn anything, obey their husbands at all times, and are worth 3/5ths as much as men

Who wrote it? Jesus?
Yeah, I thought not.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 8:09pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 14th, 2013 at 5:13pm: By 7th century standards, he wasn't a paedophile. By 21st century Australian / Western standards (which you seem to support in this case), he was. nope. Look up the definition of pedophile Soren, and explain to me how The Prophet fits the bill - even by 21st century standards.

In your own standards is it normal to marry a 6 year old? ...put aside any wiki "definitions", just from a perspective of a human, father (you may be), would you accept for some old bugger to marry your little 6y.o.?
WTF!? I would eat their face if they even attempted to come near my kid, let alone marry!!!
He IS a PEDOPHILE, gruesome, abnormal imbecile, without any morals, but only dick feelings controlling his and his follower's minds.

Torpedo wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 8:41pm:

In your own standards is it normal to marry a 6 year old?

No its not - and lets just stick to the pedophile claim ok Torp?

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 8:44pm:

lets just stick to the pedophile claim ok Torp?

exactly, so stick to it, and admit, at least that he IS

Torpedo wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 8:46pm:

exactly, so stick to it, and admit, at least that he IS

Do you know what a pedophile is Torp? Seems you don't. Please get a dictionary and look up what it is and then get back to me.

You can call it immoral, depraved etc - but it is not by definition pedophilia.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 8:48pm:

Torpedo wrote on Oct 14th, 2013 at 8:46pm: exactly, so stick to it, and admit, at least that he IS Do you know what a pedophile is Torp? Seems you don't. Please get a dictionary and look up what it is and then get back to me. You can call it immoral, depraved etc - but it is not by definition pedophilia.

The definition is: abnormal, immoral, unacceptable, irrational, mere animal desires.  Read some on these too, it might shed some light into who your idol is.. beside just reading pedo def.

gandalf, definition of pedophile, here it goes:

Quote:

pe·do·phile  /ˈpedəˌfīl/ Noun A person who is sexually attracted to children.

the girl was a child, was she not? he was attracted, was he not...?

Who said this:



polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 13^th, 2013 at 7:10pm:

I am completely opposed to marriage of what we identify as "children" in today's world.

Child = paedo
9 year old = child.

If Mohammed (or any of his emulators) tried that 'oh, but she has bled, so it's OK' wheeze today in the West, he would be arrested as a paedophile.
Child doesn't just mean before the onset of puberty. It also means below the age of majority.

You oppose marriage of children - which we define as being below the age of majority, regardless if puberty. SO you oppose the Mohammedan example being applicable for all.
Careful, this is how Reformations begin, Gandy.

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 9:55pm:

Who said this: polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 13th, 2013 at 7:10pm: I am completely opposed to marriage of what we identify as "children" in today's world. Child = paedo 9 year old = child. If Mohammed (or any of his emulators) tried that 'oh, but she has bled, so it's OK' wheeze today in the West, he would be arrested as a paedophile.

I am getting the impression that Gandalf is a Muslim so everything is falling into place. 

Wakey wakey!

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 10:03pm:

Wakey wakey!

Well it is not stated anywhere, and I am a relatively new here.  but I figured with his spirited but idiotic defence he probably must be a Muslim.  Though he does seem to have come around to a position I said very early on before I gave up the thread as a joke he should have just said that "yeah, bonking kiddies is bad, but that was then and different standards". 

He has done that, but he still comes out guns blazing and dancing on semantic pinheads at any allegation that his prophet was a pedo by modern standards.

That mismatch in thinking made me guess, oh yeah, must be a beardy weirdy. 

Datalife wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 10:08pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 14th, 2013 at 10:03pm: Wakey wakey! Well it is not stated anywhere, and I am a relatively new here.  but I figured with his spirited but idiotic defence he probably must be a Muslim.  Though he does seem to have come around to a position I said very early on before I gave up the thread as a joke he should have just said that "yeah, bonking kiddies is bad, but that was then and different standards".  He has done that, but he still comes out guns blazing and dancing on semantic pinheads at any allegation that his prophet was a pedo by modern standards. That mismatch in thinking made me guess, oh yeah, must be a beardy weirdy.

Excellent reasoning, Watson.
;)

Soren wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 10:14pm:

Excellent reasoning, Watson. ;)

heh,  just ask Brian, I am a bit slow.   ;D

Science or politicians? Who do you trust?



Quote:

Adult Biologically, an adult is a human being or other organism that is of reproductive age (sexual maturity). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult

True Colours wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 10:54pm:

Science or politicians? Who do you trust? Quote: Adult Biologically, an adult is a human being or other organism that is of reproductive age (sexual maturity). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult

Who do you trust - the law or Wikipedia.

You go and find out, boy. Hit on an underage girl and see what happens. Quote Wikipedia to the judge.

Moron.

Every law made by politicians is good?

If that were true wouldn't all laws be the same in every country, and the age of consent uniform?

Anything goes: five things you can do in Amsterdam that are illegal here


Let's not forget that politicians here have in the past made some crazy laws regarding Aborigines, and not letting poor people vote.

It is still illegal in Victoria to change a lightbulb unless you are an electrician. ;D ;D ;D

But hey, whatever a politician decides must be correct, right Soren? :D :D  :D



Soren you must have a great respect for the carbon tax, seeing as some politicians decided it should be law right? ;D ;D ;D

Torpedo wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 9:28pm:

the girl was a child, was she not? he was attracted, was he not...?

Prove it.

Consumating a marriage is not always about sexual attraction - especially when we're talking about a statesman securing the marriage for important political-alliance purposes. The claim that he consummated his marriage to a post-pubescent girl because he was a filthy pedophile, is a completely baseless smear - its as simple as that.

The fact that he waited an entire 3 years between betrothal and consummation just blows your whole "lustful pervert dying to jump in to bed with kids" meme.

Torpedo wrote on Oct 14^th, 2013 at 9:20pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 14th, 2013 at 8:48pm: Torpedo wrote on Oct 14th, 2013 at 8:46pm: exactly, so stick to it, and admit, at least that he IS Do you know what a pedophile is Torp? Seems you don't. Please get a dictionary and look up what it is and then get back to me. You can call it immoral, depraved etc - but it is not by definition pedophilia. The definition is: abnormal, immoral, unacceptable, irrational, mere animal desires.  Read some on these too, it might shed some light into who your idol is.. beside just reading pedo def.

If you go through the history of this thread, Baron was determined to push the line that Muhammad was a pedophile because he had sex with Aisha before she went through puberty - that is the more orthodox definition of pedophilia. This line of argument was thoroughly disproven by using the same Sahih (most reliable) hadith where Aisha herself states that she completed puberty while she was still living with her parents, before the Hijra - and therefore before her consummation with Muhammad (this timeline is not in dispute). Baron then assured me that there were other sources that prove his case, but he has been strangely absent from the debate after I pressed him on this.

It just exemplifies the sheer hilarity of you clowns squeeming and squirming to desperately keep this gig going. First its "oh yeah, she was definitely pre-pubescent" - then when that is disproven, its "oh but pedophile only refers to "children" - as if you are completely oblivious to the completely random and subjective definition of "child". Most absurdly-hillarious of all is Soren constantly referring to what the law of today's society states - as if our society has unlocked the biological secret of what magical numerical age people suddenly and miraculously change from "child" to "adult". Poor Soren can't seem to understand that our legal system simply plucked a random number from the air.

"Poor" Soren is simply pointing out the incompatibility of our Western liberal democratic legal system and your sharia.

and yet it is not "sharia" to marry and have sex with children. Quite the opposite in fact.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 6:56am:

If you go through the history of this thread, Baron was determined to push the line that Muhammad was a pedophile because he had sex with Aisha before she went through puberty - that is the more orthodox definition of pedophilia. This line of argument was thoroughly disproven by using the same Sahih (most reliable) hadith where Aisha herself states that she completed puberty while she was still living with her parents, before the Hijra - and therefore before her consummation with Muhammad (this timeline is not in dispute). Baron then assured me that there were other sources that prove his case, but he has been strangely absent from the debate after I pressed him on this. It just exemplifies the sheer hilarity of you clowns squeeming and squirming to desperately keep this gig going. First its "oh yeah, she was definitely pre-pubescent" - then when that is disproven,

Muhammad was a pedophile and you have done nothing to refute that, i have even had muslims argue it is not pedophilia if you marry the child in this very forum.

You have one hadith where a 6 year old girl said she reached puberty which you believe and nobody else does, there are other sahih hadith that say she had not reached puberty which you conveniently disregard to justify your pedophile profit.

Quote:

The playing with dolls and other similar images is forbidden,but it was allowed for Aisha at the time,as she was a little girl,not yet reached the age of puberty Islamic source-www.sunnah.com/bukhari/78/157

How many people do you think will believe a 6 year old girl reached puberty when other Islamic sources say she had not?

Aisha had her first menses on the journey to the very first Hajj which puts her age at around 15, why did she have no children with Mo,was Mo impotent in his final years?

I have been on holidays.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 9:18am:

and yet it is not "sharia" to marry and have sex with children. Quite the opposite in fact.

Our law says age matters, not biology.  Your law says biology matters, not age.

Because we recognise that sex and marriage are not just about getting your end away.

Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 10:41am:

You have one hadith where a 6 year old girl said she reached puberty which you believe and nobody else does

A sahih hadith that no one believes? Have you been to the same school of dictating-what-others-think that freediver went to? If you recall at the time, you demanded a sahih hadith from sunna.com demonstrating that she had gone through puberty. I did exactly that, but now you do a dummy spit and cry "waah no one believes it". Oh and Baron, where do you think the claims of age 6 and 9 come from? From claims by Aisha herself. Yet strangely you don't go around screaming "how many people will believe a 6 year old" about that?


Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 10:41am:

there are other sahih hadith that say she had not reached puberty which you conveniently disregard to justify your pedophile profit.

I disregard them because they do not exist. I have asked for you to produce them, but you continue to come up blank.


Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 10:41am:

Quote: The playing with dolls and other similar images is forbidden,but it was allowed for Aisha at the time,as she was a little girl,not yet reached the age of puberty Islamic source-www.sunnah.com/bukhari/78/157

Very good Baron. Your next task is to prove that the time of this was after she had first had sex with Muhammad. You pulled a similar trick before by quoting the hadith about Aisha watching a procession of Egyptian women during her Nikkah. Obviously she hadn't had sex yet then either.


Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 10:41am:

How many people do you think will believe a 6 year old girl reached puberty when other Islamic sources say she had not?

Not a single Islamic source states that Aisha had not reached puberty at the time she first had sex with Muhammad. Not one. The only source you rely on is the reference to her taking her dolls with her into Muhammad's home - the logic being that playing with dolls is forbidden for post-pubescent girls, therefore Aisha must have been still pre-pubescent when she moved into Muhammad's home. However as I pointed out before, there is no evidence that Aisha actually played with her dolls after moving in, and furthermore, there is nothing in Islamic law that states the mere possession of dolls by post-pubescent girls is disallowed. You are merely proving that Aisha took the dolls she previously played with to store in her new home for sentimental value - which is perfectly fine by islamic law.

That compared to a sahih hadith that clearly states that Aisha went through puberty while she was still living with her parents, and before the Hijra - a time which no one disputes was before her consummation with Muhammad.

What will it take for these stupidly naive and idealistic Western women to learn the lesson that beneath whatever civility their Muslim companions might be displaying for convenience's sake, they are generally regarded to be women of loose moral character and fair game for a rape.

Beautiful young woman exits a night club at 2.00am with four male Muslims in tow ... in a Muslim country where women are regarded as little more than bagged possessions.

How utterly f* stupid can you be?

The UK and Australia needs to have a government-funded television campaign to educate the blonde airheads that playing around with Muslim males in a foreign country is not a very good idea.

link

It's infuriating how these idiots ignore all the warnings, and all the news bulletins about stranger-danger, and not leaving themselves exposed to the lurking menace of psychotics on dark streets after midnight.

It's almost Darwin Evolutionary what happens to so many of them.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 12:41pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:41am: You have one hadith where a 6 year old girl said she reached puberty which you believe and nobody else does A sahih hadith that no one believes? Have you been to the same school of dictating-what-others-think that freediver went to? If you recall at the time, you demanded a sahih hadith from sunna.com demonstrating that she had gone through puberty. I did exactly that, but now you do a dummy spit and cry "waah no one believes it". Oh and Baron, where do you think the claims of age 6 and 9 come from? From claims by Aisha herself. Yet strangely you don't go around screaming "how many people will believe a 6 year old" about that? You do not believe the sahih hadeeth on the death penalty for apostasy, why are you selective on what sahih hadeeth you believe in? If we look at your "sahih" hadith it says- "I had seen my parents following Islam since i reached the age of puberty" Her father Abu Bakr was a neighbor of Khadija and Muhammad,Abu Bakr was one of the first converts to Islam if not the first. Aisha married Mohammad when she was 6, her father was already a muslim at that time. Do you expect a rational person to believe Aisha hit puberty before she reached 6 years of age? Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:41am: there are other sahih hadith that say she had not reached puberty which you conveniently disregard to justify your pedophile profit. I disregard them because they do not exist. I have asked for you to produce them, but you continue to come up blank. I have produced them are you deaf dumb and blind? Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:41am: Quote: The playing with dolls and other similar images is forbidden,but it was allowed for Aisha at the time,as she was a little girl,not yet reached the age of puberty Islamic source-www.sunnah.com/bukhari/78/157 Very good Baron. Your next task is to prove that the time of this was after she had first had sex with Muhammad. You pulled a similar trick before by quoting the hadith about Aisha watching a procession of Egyptian women during her Nikkah. Obviously she hadn't had sex yet then either. According to your nonsense Aisha reached puberty when she was 6 or younger, do you think a rational person will believe that? If she reached puberty at 6 why was she playing with dolls, does the link to the bukhari hadith say she had not reached puberty? Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:41am: How many people do you think will believe a 6 year old girl reached puberty when other Islamic sources say she had not? Not a single Islamic source states that Aisha had not reached puberty at the time she first had sex with Muhammad. Not one. The only source you rely on is the reference to her taking her dolls with her into Muhammad's home - the logic being that playing with dolls is forbidden for post-pubescent girls, therefore Aisha must have been still pre-pubescent when she moved into Muhammad's home. However as I pointed out before, there is no evidence that Aisha actually played with her dolls after moving in, and furthermore, there is nothing in Islamic law that states the mere possession of dolls by post-pubescent girls is disallowed. You are merely proving that Aisha took the dolls she previously played with to store in her new home for sentimental value - which is perfectly fine by islamic law. That compared to a sahih hadith that clearly states that Aisha went through puberty while she was still living with her parents, and before the Hijra - a time which no one disputes was before her consummation with Muhammad. Your hadith says Aisha had seen her parents following Islam since she reached puberty, her parents were the first converts to Islam and her father reluctantly allowed Mo to marry her when she was 6, her parents had been following Islam for some time before she was married at age 6.

Mohammad married a 6 yo child who he porked at age 9,Mo had a revelation from allah (perhaps it was a wet dream ;D) that he would marry the child of his neighbor.

You are claiming she reached puberty before her marriage to Mo.. which was before age 6 ;D ;D ;D
What are baby teeth(deciduous teeth) and what age do they fall out Gandalf?
hint-www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deciduous_teeth

Do little girls still have baby teeth at age  9 which is when that dirty old fat dwarf prophet pretender sex offender porked a child?
www.dentistry.about.com/od/dentalcarebyage/f/losebabyteeth.htm

lol keep ranting Baron.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 6:56am:

If you go through the history of this thread, Baron was determined to push the line that Muhammad was a pedophile because he had sex with Aisha before she went through puberty - that is the more orthodox definition of pedophilia. This line of argument was thoroughly disproven by using the same Sahih (most reliable) hadith where Aisha herself states that she completed puberty while she was still living with her parents, before the Hijra - and therefore before her consummation with Muhammad (this timeline is not in dispute). Baron then assured me that there were other sources that prove his case, but he has been strangely absent from the debate after I pressed him on this. It just exemplifies the sheer hilarity of you clowns squeeming and squirming to desperately keep this gig going. First its "oh yeah, she was definitely pre-pubescent" - then when that is disproven, its "oh but pedophile only refers to "children" - as if you are completely oblivious to the completely random and subjective definition of "child". Most absurdly-hillarious of all is Soren constantly referring to what the law of today's society states - as if our society has unlocked the biological secret of what magical numerical age people suddenly and miraculously change from "child" to "adult". Poor Soren can't seem to understand that our legal system simply plucked a random number from the air.

I don't really care of the history of this thread
What concerns me, is your, and your fellow muslim's viewpoint regarding purberty/marriage/sex...
Your view, clearly, is that you don't mind having sex with a 9 y.o. if she started the periods.
My view, is that a child remains a child until at least 18! Moreover... the girl, who's reached not puberty, but mature stage, should be able to decide whether she actually agrees to marry or have sex with whoever it is.
And lastly, 9 y.o. then, or now, is just a baby, 14 y.o is a baby...
And you can continue arguing re: definition pedophilia.
Well then, we should modify our vocabulary, just so it makes more sense to people like you, re: wrong and right

For a man in his 50s to claim to be a prophet of god while diddling 10 wives plus a 9-to-15 year old is the most ridiculously self-justifying, stark, staring mad smacking sex-crazed priapic wheeze in history - and he gets away with it because his audience is a bunch of lustful brigands who also want justification for their lust.

There were worse Roman emperors, and they too claimed to be living gods -but nobody bought their stupid nonsense. With Islam though, we have a cult of the  Tumescent One.

Justification by god of insatiable sexual appetite is the only new thing Mohammed brought to the world. Otherwise there is nothing new or better that Islam has given the world. It's a comic imitation of Judaism with a divinely-sanctioned hard-on.

So, Soren, you obviously wouldn't like Joseph Smith, founder of the Church of the Latter Day Saints.   He practised Polygamy.  Then there was King Salomon who had 700 wives and 300 concubines but he was Jewish.   ;D

True Colours wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 1:23am:

Every law made by politicians is good? If that were true wouldn't all laws be the same in every country, and the age of consent uniform? Anything goes: five things you can do in Amsterdam that are illegal here Let's not forget that politicians here have in the past made some crazy laws regarding Aborigines, and not letting poor people vote. It is still illegal in Victoria to change a lightbulb unless you are an electrician. ;D ;D ;D But hey, whatever a politician decides must be correct, right Soren? :D :D  :D Soren you must have a great respect for the carbon tax, seeing as some politicians decided it should be law right? ;D ;D ;D

You are supporting the eternal right of a 50 year old man, with 10 wives, to diddle a little girl.

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 9:08pm:

So, Soren, you obviously wouldn't like Joseph Smith, founder of the Church of the Latter Day Saints.   He practised Polygamy.  Then there was King Salomon who had 700 wives and 300 concubines but he was Jewish.   ;D

Tres amusant (for you), simple little twit.  No, I am not a Mormon, nor an 800 BC Jewish king.

Do you somehow think that they have any influence of Australian marriage laws? If so, I have overestimated you when I put you down as a mere thick, tendentious, squishy boob.

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 9:08pm:

So, Soren, you obviously wouldn't like Joseph Smith, founder of the Church of the Latter Day Saints.   He practised Polygamy.  Then there was King Salomon who had 700 wives and 300 concubines but he was Jewish.   ;D

brian,

That King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines, is not a holy sanction, of King Solomon's conduct.



And his behaviour was NOT justified by the law of God.

Deuteronomy 17:14
When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
15  Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.
16  But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.
17  Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.
18  And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:
19  And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:
20  That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.



God's law specifically prohibited prophets and kings from taking many wives, AND YET, prophets like David and Solomon ignored God's law, and took to themselves many wives.



1 Kings 10:26
And Solomon gathered together chariots and horsemen: and he had a thousand and four hundred chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, whom he bestowed in the cities for chariots, and with the king at Jerusalem.
27  And the king made silver to be in Jerusalem as stones, and cedars made he to be as the sycomore trees that are in the vale, for abundance.
28  And Solomon had horses brought out of Egypt, and linen yarn: the king's merchants received the linen yarn at a price.
29  And a chariot came up and went out of Egypt for six hundred shekels of silver, and an horse for an hundred and fifty: and so for all the kings of the Hittites, and for the kings of Syria, did they bring them out by their means.

1 Kings 11:1
But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;
2  Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
3  And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
4  For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
5  For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
6  And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
7  Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
8  And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.

Yadda wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 11:03pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:08pm: So, Soren, you obviously wouldn't like Joseph Smith, founder of the Church of the Latter Day Saints.   He practised Polygamy.  Then there was King Salomon who had 700 wives and 300 concubines but he was Jewish.   ;D brian, That King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines, is not a holy sanction, of King Solomon's conduct. And his behaviour was NOT justified by the law of God. Deuteronomy 17:14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me; 15  Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother. 16  But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way. 17  Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold. 18  And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites: 19  And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them: 20  That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel. God's law specifically prohibited prophets and kings from taking many wives, AND YET, prophets like David and Solomon ignored God's law, and took to themselves many wives. 1 Kings 10:26 And Solomon gathered together chariots and horsemen: and he had a thousand and four hundred chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, whom he bestowed in the cities for chariots, and with the king at Jerusalem. 27  And the king made silver to be in Jerusalem as stones, and cedars made he to be as the sycomore trees that are in the vale, for abundance. 28  And Solomon had horses brought out of Egypt, and linen yarn: the king's merchants received the linen yarn at a price. 29  And a chariot came up and went out of Egypt for six hundred shekels of silver, and an horse for an hundred and fifty: and so for all the kings of the Hittites, and for the kings of Syria, did they bring them out by their means. 1 Kings 11:1 But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites; 2  Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love. 3  And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart. 4  For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5  For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6  And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father. 7  Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon. 8  And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.

What you mean the law of God?

Solomon came before jesus and there was no bible or gospel in solomons time.

Solomon doesn't adhere to the bible.

wally1 wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 6:46am:

Yadda wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 11:03pm: Brian Ross wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:08pm: So, Soren, you obviously wouldn't like Joseph Smith, founder of the Church of the Latter Day Saints.   He practised Polygamy.  Then there was King Salomon who had 700 wives and 300 concubines but he was Jewish.   ;D brian, That King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines, is not a holy sanction, of King Solomon's conduct. And his behaviour was NOT justified by the law of God. Deuteronomy 17:14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me; 15  Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother. 16  But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way. 17  Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold. 18  And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites: 19  And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them: 20  That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel. God's law specifically prohibited prophets and kings from taking many wives, AND YET, prophets like David and Solomon ignored God's law, and took to themselves many wives. 1 Kings 10:26 And Solomon gathered together chariots and horsemen: and he had a thousand and four hundred chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, whom he bestowed in the cities for chariots, and with the king at Jerusalem. 27  And the king made silver to be in Jerusalem as stones, and cedars made he to be as the sycomore trees that are in the vale, for abundance. 28  And Solomon had horses brought out of Egypt, and linen yarn: the king's merchants received the linen yarn at a price. 29  And a chariot came up and went out of Egypt for six hundred shekels of silver, and an horse for an hundred and fifty: and so for all the kings of the Hittites, and for the kings of Syria, did they bring them out by their means. 1 Kings 11:1 But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites; 2  Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love. 3  And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart. 4  For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5  For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6  And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father. 7  Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon. 8  And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods. What you mean the law of God? Solomon came before jesus and there was no bible or gospel in solomons time. Solomon doesn't adhere to the bible.

You are mistaken.




wally,

Ever heard the word, 'Torah' ?

Google it.

"The Torah, or Jewish Written Law, consists of the five books of the Hebrew Bible....."


2 Kings 14:6
But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.



An interesting read, even for Jewish people in this forum, would be;

2 Kings 22

wally1 wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 6:46am:

What you mean the law of God? Solomon came before jesus and there was no bible or gospel in solomons time. Solomon doesn't adhere to the bible.

wally,

What law of Moses, was Jesus referring to ?

e.g.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.





There was no New Testament scripture [yet compiled] when Paul wrote this...

1 Timothy 5:18
For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Whenever the apostles spoke of 'scripture' [in the New Testament], they were referring to Old Testament scripture.

Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 4:17pm:

You do not believe the sahih hadeeth on the death penalty for apostasy, why are you selective on what sahih hadeeth you believe in?

Because you asked for a sahih hadith proving what I claim  :P

But the only proof I really need is the fact that you clowns don't have a damn shred of evidence to support your smears about pedophilia. Its your smear to prove, not mine to disprove.


Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 4:17pm:

Do you expect a rational person to believe Aisha hit puberty before she reached 6 years of age?

A "rational" person apparently believes without question the word of this girl that she married at age 6 and consumated the marriage at age 9. I would accept your sceptisism about her claims of when she reached puberty if you would be equally as sceptical about her claims about her age at marriage. But we know you will not. You will continue peddling the story that she was aged 6 and 9 because it suits your meme - despite the fact that this "unbelievable" girl is the only source for these ages! I on the other hand am happy to discard both claims made by a little girl - and run with the more accepted version amongst modern scholars that she was more like 16-18 at the time of marriage.

But like I said, either way it makes no dent in my case - since its your idiotic smear to prove, not mine to disprove. Its just sux for you that you trip yourself up in insisting the authenticity of some sahih hadeeth (like her age claims, and the account of her taking her dolls to Muhammad's house), but ridicule others (Aisha's puberty claim).


Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 4:17pm:

I have produced them are you deaf dumb and blind?

Seriously Baron - besides the doll hadith, and the nikah hadith - both of which I have dealt with in detail - what hadith have you produced that categorically states she had not gone through puberty at the time of consummation? The answer is zero - because no hadith exists.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 9:03am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 4:17pm: You do not believe the sahih hadeeth on the death penalty for apostasy, why are you selective on what sahih hadeeth you believe in? Because you asked for a sahih hadith proving what I claim  :P But the only proof I really need is the fact that you clowns don't have a damn shred of evidence to support your smears about pedophilia. Its your smear to prove, not mine to disprove. You disagree with the sahih hadeeth on the death penalty for apostasy, why are you selective on what sahih hadith you believe? Mo was pedo the evidence is there,of course muslims deny their prophet was a pedo, those reading this can make up their own mind on whether your piss poor attempts have refuted anything. Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 4:17pm: Do you expect a rational person to believe Aisha hit puberty before she reached 6 years of age? A "rational" person apparently believes without question the word of this girl that she married at age 6 and consumated the marriage at age 9. I would accept your sceptisism about her claims of when she reached puberty if you would be equally as sceptical about her claims about her age at marriage. But we know you will not. You will continue peddling the story that she was aged 6 and 9 because it suits your meme - despite the fact that this "unbelievable" girl is the only source for these ages! I on the other hand am happy to discard both claims made by a little girl - and run with the more accepted version amongst modern scholars that she was more like 16-18 at the time of marriage. There are other hadeeth narrated by people other than Aisha who say she was 6 when married and 9 when dirty old pedo poked her, there are also hadeeth by Aisha saying this is true. But like I said, either way it makes no dent in my case - since its your idiotic smear to prove, not mine to disprove. Its just sux for you that you trip yourself up in insisting the authenticity of some sahih hadeeth (like her age claims, and the account of her taking her dolls to Muhammad's house), but ridicule others (Aisha's puberty claim). Do you think a 6 year old girl would comprehend what puberty is gandalf? Aishas father was one of the first converts to Islam, he reluctantly gave his daughter in marriage, her parents were following Islam when she was 6 or younger so it is only you who uses this verse to claim she reached puberty so young. Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 4:17pm: I have produced them are you deaf dumb and blind? Seriously Baron - besides the doll hadith, and the nikah hadith - both of which I have dealt with in detail - what hadith have you produced that categorically states she had not gone through puberty at the time of consummation? The answer is zero - because no hadith exists. All we have is muslims claiming 9 year old girls have reached puberty despite still having their baby teeth, in your case you claim Aisha reached puberty at 6 or younger.  ;D

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 9:03am:

A "rational" person apparently believes without question the word of this girl that she married at age 6 and consumated the marriage at age 9. I would accept your sceptisism about her claims of when she reached puberty if you would be equally as sceptical about her claims about her age at marriage. But we know you will not. You will continue peddling the story that she was aged 6 and 9 because it suits your meme - despite the fact that this "unbelievable" girl is the only source for these ages! I on the other hand am happy to discard both claims made by a little girl - and run with the more accepted version amongst modern scholars that she was more like 16-18 at the time of marriage. But like I said, either way it makes no dent in my case - since its your idiotic smear to prove, not mine to disprove. Its just sux for you that you trip yourself up in insisting the authenticity of some sahih hadeeth (like her age claims, and the account of her taking her dolls to Muhammad's house), but ridicule others (Aisha's puberty claim).

So from this it follows that you would be happy to marry off your own daughter, aged 6-9, to a 50 years plus  Muslim imam as long as she has reached puberty and the old man was well regarded in the 'overwhelmingly law-abiding Muslim community'.

You have no issue with your OWN daughter, today, following in Aisha's footsteps.

Soren wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 8:33pm:

So from this it follows that you would be happy to marry off your own daughter, aged 6-9, to a 50 years plus  Muslim imam as long as she has reached puberty and the old man was well regarded in the 'overwhelmingly law-abiding Muslim community'. You have no issue with your OWN daughter, today, following in Aisha's footsteps.

http://truedemocracyparty.net/wp-content/uploads/strawmanargument.jpg

You seem to confuse the Arabic/Muslim nikah (engagement) of 1400 years with the current Western understanding of marriage.


A nikah (engagement) ceremony conducted with a girl did not become a marriage as Westerners understand it until the girl became an adult.


Marriage for females upon attaining adulthood was common practice across cultures throughout nearly all of human history.

An example is given in the Catholic Church's teaching that Mary married 90 year-old Joseph when she was 12.

Christians accepted this for nearly 2000 years.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 9:24pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 16th, 2013 at 8:33pm: So from this it follows that you would be happy to marry off your own daughter, aged 6-9, to a 50 years plus  Muslim imam as long as she has reached puberty and the old man was well regarded in the 'overwhelmingly law-abiding Muslim community'. You have no issue with your OWN daughter, today, following in Aisha's footsteps. http://truedemocracyparty.net/wp-content/uploads/strawmanargument.jpg

So you wouldn't let your 9 year old daughter marry a 50 year old imam with a few wives, even if she has reached puberty? Totally in accordance with Muhammed's practice, mind.
No?
Mohammed a role model no longer? Or not for you in particular?


How about your 15 year old daughter? OK to marry off to a 50 year old holy man? As a father, you would give her to him?

True Colours wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 9:41pm:

Arabic/Muslim nikah (engagement) of 1400 years

I invite you to stick that up your arse.  If you want to smuggle some "Arabic/Muslim nikah (engagement) of 1400 years" into contemporary Australian life, you might as well start shoving it now.

Otherwise I do not see the point you are making - Islam is either relevant or irrelevant.



You need to understand Australian society and law now, not harken to "Arabic/Muslim nikah (engagement) of 1400 years" ago.

A 50 year old with 10 wives diddling a 9 year old is not a man to be emulated here and now.

Soren wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 9:57pm:

So you wouldn't let your 9 year old daughter marry a 50 year old imam with a few wives, even if she has reached puberty? Totally in accordance with Muhammed's practice, mind. No?

It is not Muhammad's practice - a point expalined ad-nauseum, but which you singularly refuse to comprehend.

Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 8:15pm:

You disagree with the sahih hadeeth on the death penalty for apostasy, why are you selective on what sahih hadith you believe?

Its a question you need to ask yourself. You have spectacularly failed to understand what is going on here. You see, I am perfectly happy to disregard the authenticity of any of the hadeeth in question - including the puberty-before-consummation one. It makes not a speck of difference to my case - which is merely to say that the smear that Muhammad was a pedophile is completely unfounded. I don't need to produce any evidence to demonstrate that - merely allude to the complete lack of evidence to make your case. But still, you did insist that I produce a Sahih hadith from sunna.com showing that Aisha had already gone through puberty. So I did-  just to play along with your little games.

So the hadith does nothing to dampen my case - which again is merely to demonstrate that you have no a shred of evidence to base your smear - but it does severely hurt your case. See, you are the one relying on hadeeth to support your case - namely the doll story and the age of Aisha. Assuming these are all in the 'sahih' category (which I think they are), then you look kinda stupid saying "look here - a sahih hadith 'proving' that Aisha was prepubescent at time of consummation" and at the same time saying "but we can disregard this other sahih hadith that clearly states she was post-pubescent long before consummation". Thats your problem because you call up hadith to make your case - whereas I don't.

But of course if we had a hadith narrated by Aisha stating that she was prepubescent at the time consummation, somehow I don't think we'd hear you lecturing us about the unreliability of a little girl claiming to know when she went through puberty now would we?  :P


Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 8:15pm:

All we have is muslims claiming 9 year old girls have reached puberty despite still having their baby teeth, in your case you claim Aisha reached puberty at 6 or younger.

Is there some reference to her having baby teeth? Where? I have not heard of this.

Soren wrote on Oct 16^th, 2013 at 9:57pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 16th, 2013 at 9:24pm: Soren wrote on Oct 16th, 2013 at 8:33pm: So from this it follows that you would be happy to marry off your own daughter, aged 6-9, to a 50 years plus  Muslim imam as long as she has reached puberty and the old man was well regarded in the 'overwhelmingly law-abiding Muslim community'. You have no issue with your OWN daughter, today, following in Aisha's footsteps. http://truedemocracyparty.net/wp-content/uploads/strawmanargument.jpg So you wouldn't let your 9 year old daughter marry a 50 year old imam with a few wives, even if she has reached puberty? Totally in accordance with Muhammed's practice, mind. No? Mohammed a role model no longer? Or not for you in particular?

Muslims do say Mo is a role model for all times and not just 7th century Arabia.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 11:19am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 16th, 2013 at 8:15pm: You disagree with the sahih hadeeth on the death penalty for apostasy, why are you selective on what sahih hadith you believe? Its a question you need to ask yourself. I am not a muslim i think Islam is bullshit barfed up by a 7th century desert bandit, i dont belive in any of it,i think all religions are bullshit You have spectacularly failed to understand what is going on here. You see, I am perfectly happy to disregard the authenticity of any of the hadeeth in question - including the puberty-before-consummation one. If you believe that hadith then you believe Aisha reached puberty before her marriage to Mohammad at age 6 which most reasonable people will think is absurd. It makes not a speck of difference to my case - which is merely to say that the smear that Muhammad was a pedophile is completely unfounded. I don't need to produce any evidence to demonstrate that - merely allude to the complete lack of evidence to make your case. But still, you did insist that I produce a Sahih hadith from sunna.com showing that Aisha had already gone through puberty. So I did-  just to play along with your little games. Yes and when sahih hadeeth say kill apostates why are you reluctant to believe those? So the hadith does nothing to dampen my case - which again is merely to demonstrate that you have no a shred of evidence to base your smear - but it does severely hurt your case. You have one hadith with a 6 year old girl saying she had reached puberty and nothing else, do you think a 6 year old girl would comprehend what puberty is? See, you are the one relying on hadeeth to support your case - namely the doll story and the age of Aisha. Assuming these are all in the 'sahih' category (which I think they are), then you look kinda stupid saying "look here - a sahih hadith 'proving' that Aisha was prepubescent at time of consummation" and at the same time saying "but we can disregard this other sahih hadith that clearly states she was post-pubescent long before consummation". Thats your problem because you call up hadith to make your case - whereas I don't. If i disregard all hadith narrated by Aisha we still have others saying Mo the fat old dwarf porked a 9 year old wife. Quote: Abdullah said- The profit married Aisha at 6 and broke her in age 9, and he passed away when she was 18. www.sunnah.com/urn/1261950 www.sunnah.com/bukhari/67/93 But of course if we had a hadith narrated by Aisha stating that she was prepubescent at the time consummation, somehow I don't think we'd hear you lecturing us about the unreliability of a little girl claiming to know when she went through puberty now would we?  :P We have other hadeeth that are not narrated by Aisha confirming when Mo first porked her, only muslims claim a 9 year old girl reached puberty to justify your pedo profit, we dont need the hadeeth by Aisha to confirm when Mo p[orked her there are other sahih hadeeth. Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 16th, 2013 at 8:15pm: All we have is muslims claiming 9 year old girls have reached puberty despite still having their baby teeth, in your case you claim Aisha reached puberty at 6 or younger. Is there some reference to her having baby teeth? Where? I have not heard of this. 9 year old girls have baby teeth do you ignore medical science to justify Mo banging his 9 year old wife?

Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 12:36pm:

I am not a muslim i think Islam is bullshit barfed up by a 7th century desert bandit, i dont belive in any of it,i think all religions are bullshit

The age at which Muhammad consummated his marriage with Aisha is not religion, it is historical fact - unless you want to argue that Muhammad and/or Aisha and/or their marriage never happened. But obviously you are not, since you wouldn't be able to make this smear.

So the issue then is what historical evidence are we looking at to determine her age, and whether or not she was prepubescent at the time of consummation? And there we have the inconvenient fact (inconvenient for you, that is) that you are relying solely, 100% on hadeeth to build your case that a) Aisha was aged 6 and 9 between betrothal and consummation and b) that she was prepubescent at time of consummation. The exact same sources, as you might recall, that you previously rubbished some time ago as wholly unreliable given that they were written some 200 years after the death of the Prophet.

So where does that leave us Baron? I'll tell you where - you can go one of two ways: 1. be consistent with your previous position on hadeeth, and disregard all hadeeth as unreliable historical sources - at which point the entire basis for your case that Muhammad had sex with a prepubescent 9 year old - goes out the window. Or 2. If you have changed your mind about the historical validity of hadeeth - at least in regards to sahih hadeeth, then you must be consistent and accept that ALL sahih hadeeth are valid historical sources - not just the ones that (you think) supports your smears against islam. And when a sahih hadith comes along which directly refutes your version of Aisha's marriage, you can't simply say "no we have to ignore that". Its also fairly important that you find at least one hadith that actually clearly states that she was prepubescent at the time of consummation. So far you have provided precisely zero.


Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 12:36pm:

You have one hadith with a 6 year old girl saying she had reached puberty and nothing else, do you think a 6 year old girl would comprehend what puberty is?

trust me, a girl knows when she goes through puberty  ::)

The only thing dubious about this hadith is the claimed age. I think its a bit of a no-brainer that she would remember when she went through puberty, and that she would remember that she was still living with her parents (ie not having sex with the Prophet) at the time. But of course, as we both know, it doesn't matter one iota to whether or not the case that the Prophet was having sex with this girl before she reached puberty: it is your bullsh!t claim, and you have to prove it. So far you have produced not one shred of evidence to support it. thats all that matters - any hadith that contradict this claim is just an added bonus.


Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 12:36pm:

If i disregard all hadith narrated by Aisha we still have others saying Mo the fat old dwarf porked a 9 year old wife.

;D you have lost track of what you are arguing already. Prepubescent remember? No one is disputing she was 9 (at least not in this discussion) - but whether or not she was prepubescent. You have some evidence that she was 9, but exactly zero evidence that she was prepubescent.


Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 12:36pm:

9 year old girls have baby teeth do you ignore medical science to justify Mo banging his 9 year old wife?

What? Thats your argument? Does every 9 year old in the entire history of humankind still have/had baby teeth? I thought you were making an actual point based on some actual evidence. Well I won't make that mistake again!

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 17^th, 2013 at 6:51am:

Soren wrote on Oct 16th, 2013 at 9:57pm: So you wouldn't let your 9 year old daughter marry a 50 year old imam with a few wives, even if she has reached puberty? Totally in accordance with Muhammed's practice, mind. No? It is not Muhammad's practice - a point expalined ad-nauseum, but which you singularly refuse to comprehend.

1. It was precisely Mohammed's practice - betrothed at 6, consummated once she experienced her menarche.

2. This is not an acceptable practice today = this behaviour by Mohammed is not a model of behaviour for people today.

3. What other acts and practices by Mohammed are no longer examples for us today and should be actively avoided as outdated (and not eternally valid, prophetic)?

Soren wrote on Oct 21^st, 2013 at 8:44am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 17th, 2013 at 6:51am: Soren wrote on Oct 16th, 2013 at 9:57pm: So you wouldn't let your 9 year old daughter marry a 50 year old imam with a few wives, even if she has reached puberty? Totally in accordance with Muhammed's practice, mind. No? It is not Muhammad's practice - a point expalined ad-nauseum, but which you singularly refuse to comprehend. 1. It was precisely Mohammed's practice - betrothed at 6, consummated once she experienced her menarche. 2. This is not an acceptable practice today = this behaviour by Mohammed is not a model of behaviour for people today. 3. What other acts and practices by Mohammed are no longer examples for us today and should be actively avoided as outdated (and not eternally valid, prophetic)?

#2,
Unless you are a moslem.






Because 'this behaviour by Mohammed' was, and always will be, "a beautiful pattern (of conduct)" for all moslem men to imitate.

i.e.
Completely 'lawful'.




If you have ever watched Gruen planet [ABC TV];

"What would Putin do?"

"What would Mohammed do?"



"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. "
Koran 33.21


And we disbelievers must remember that all moslems regard the Koran as an inerrant document.

So its contents and opine must be 100% valid [for every moslem, and for all time].

It would be blasphemy, for ANYONE, to contest these views, today.





+++

Q.
What behaviour is halal [permissible] to a moslem [i.e. to every moslem] ?


Answer.....
ALWAYS REMEMBER THIS!;

For a devout moslem, all things are permissible, if they are permitted by Sharia.


.....and it is completely lawful within the moslem community, for a moslem man to marry an eight or nine year old girl.

Yadda wrote on Oct 21^st, 2013 at 10:05am:

+++ Q. What behaviour is halal [permissible] to a moslem [i.e. to every moslem] ? Answer..... ALWAYS REMEMBER THIS!; For a devout moslem, all things are permissible, if they are permitted by Sharia. .....and it is completely lawful within the moslem community, for a moslem man to marry an eight or nine year old girl.

And when we [disbelievers] observe the behaviour of MOSLEMS on both sides of the conflict in Syria today,
ALWAYS REMEMBER, that the very same 'principle of action' is applicable, to those moslems [in conflict, in Syria today];


For a devout moslem, all things are permissible, if they are permitted by Sharia.


e.g. Syria;

Bomb civilian infidel areas ?  LAWFUL           ["He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."]

Murder civilians infidels ?  LAWFUL           ["He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."]

Cut off supplies to civilian infidel areas ?  LAWFUL           ["He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."]


n.b.
The MOSLEMS, on both sides of the conflict in Syria today, are fighting against,
PEOPLE WHOM THEY CONSIDER TO BE INFIDELS.





SYRIA: An example of moslems slaughtering moslems
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1333935983/73#73i


+++

Allah's 'cause', is;

"To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "....

"O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger, and make not vain your deeds!
Those who reject Allah, and hinder (men) from the Path of Allah, then die rejecting Allah,- Allah will not forgive them.
Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost: for Allah is with you, and will never put you in loss for your (good) deeds."
Koran 47:33-35



HADITH....

"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.065
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.080i

n.b.
......"He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."



"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #001.002.026

Yadda wrote on Oct 21^st, 2013 at 10:05am:

Soren wrote on Oct 21st, 2013 at 8:44am: polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 17th, 2013 at 6:51am: Soren wrote on Oct 16th, 2013 at 9:57pm: So you wouldn't let your 9 year old daughter marry a 50 year old imam with a few wives, even if she has reached puberty? Totally in accordance with Muhammed's practice, mind. No? It is not Muhammad's practice - a point expalined ad-nauseum, but which you singularly refuse to comprehend. 1. It was precisely Mohammed's practice - betrothed at 6, consummated once she experienced her menarche. 2. This is not an acceptable practice today = this behaviour by Mohammed is not a model of behaviour for people today. 3. What other acts and practices by Mohammed are no longer examples for us today and should be actively avoided as outdated (and not eternally valid, prophetic)? #2, Unless you are a moslem.

Muslims and apologists - is this true?  I thought Islam and western liberal democracy were compatible.

Shurely shome mishtake.