Millions of people have been killed in George W Bush's Crusade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br_70Kbdpow

Why are people still not apostatising from Christianity?

Oh wait they are.

The rise of atheism in America



Polls show that in the EU 20% of people are already full-blown atheists.

True Colours wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 5:06pm:

Millions of people have been killed in George W Bush's Crusade. Polls show that in the EU 20% of people are already full-blown atheists.

Since Bush has not been in power for many years is this now Obama's crusade?

If muslims think there is only 1 god and Mo was his messenger does that mean they are atheist towards other religions, what is left for muslims when they realise Islam is bullshit as well?

I prefer to use the term no religion, Lestat was a muslim in this forum who was clueless about agnostics.

In the Australian census those with no religion are growing faster than any religion.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Australia

Obama has been far worse than Bush in many respects. The expansion of the rendition program and drone attacks just two examples.

Talk to the shade of Charles Martel if you ever need a reason for such behaviour.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 10:28pm:

Obama has been far worse than Bush in many respects. The expansion of the rendition program and drone attacks just two examples.

They elect a Muslim for Prez and you think he's worse in many respects than the Christian before him.

No wonder Islam's civil war started the day Mohammed died. No matter what, even the best of times you bvggers are half-full. Or half-empty. Or what was the correct translation of the question again?  Actually, you all ordered a cheeseburger (halal, of course).

Soren wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 11:01pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 24th, 2013 at 10:28pm: Obama has been far worse than Bush in many respects. The expansion of the rendition program and drone attacks just two examples. They elect a Muslim for Prez and you think he's worse in many respects than the Christian before him.

Hate to break it to you, Soren but Obama isn't a Muslim.  He's a Christian.  I am sure you'll next try and claim he wasn't born in the USA.   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 12:52am:

Soren wrote on Sep 24th, 2013 at 11:01pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 24th, 2013 at 10:28pm: Obama has been far worse than Bush in many respects. The expansion of the rendition program and drone attacks just two examples. They elect a Muslim for Prez and you think he's worse in many respects than the Christian before him. Hate to break it to you, Soren but Obama isn't a Muslim.  He's a Christian.  I am sure you'll next try and claim he wasn't born in the USA.   ::)

yeah, he is a Muslim on his papa's side (sons of Kenyan Muslims are Kenyan Muslims) or an apostate if he converted outa Islam.

Obama's father was a declared atheist.

Soren wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 1:15am:

yeah, he is a Muslim on his papa's side (sons of Kenyan Muslims are Kenyan Muslims) or an apostate if he converted outa Islam.

What a stupid thing to say.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 8:10am:

Soren wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 1:15am: yeah, he is a Muslim on his papa's side (sons of Kenyan Muslims are Kenyan Muslims) or an apostate if he converted outa Islam. What a stupid thing to say.

It's the truth. Obama senior was a muslim at birth. If he renounced it for atheism he is an apostate muslim but still a muslim, according to muslims. So his son is a muslim, even if he goes to church. If you are born a Muslim, you can't be a non-muslim - according to Islam.
And mamma O'Bama doesn't count, she was a non-muslim woman.

Zaid b. Aslam reported that the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) declared that the man who leaves the fold of Islam should be executed (Muwatta Imam Malik, p. 317).

Narrated Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anyone with Allah's punishment (fire)'. I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him'". (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 9, p. 45).

Abu Musa said: Mu'adh came to me when I was in the Yemen. A man who was a Jew embraced Islam and then retreated from Islam. When Mu'adh came, he said: I will not come down from my mount until he is killed. He was then killed. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Vol. 3, p. 1213).


Kenyans do not seem to be exempt.

an apostate muslim? Really Soren??

Where do you get this crap?

Please tell us what the sharia-compliant way of leaving Islam is.

I can't seem to find any Islamic scholars explaining how a Muslim can become an openly atheist or Christian person and not be regarded as an apostate.

.

Out of his arse?    :D :D :D :D :D :D

Soren wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 1:14pm:

Please tell us what the sharia-compliant way of leaving Islam is. I can't seem to find any Islamic scholars explaining how a Muslim can become an openly atheist or Christian person and not be regarded as an apostate.

This has nothing to do with how to leave islam. This is about your absurd concept of an "apostate muslim". An apostate is someone who has abandoned islam - they can't be an apostate and a muslim at the same time.  :D

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 1:38pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 1:14pm: Please tell us what the sharia-compliant way of leaving Islam is. I can't seem to find any Islamic scholars explaining how a Muslim can become an openly atheist or Christian person and not be regarded as an apostate. This has nothing to do with how to leave islam. This is about your absurd concept of an "apostate muslim". An apostate is someone who has abandoned islam - they can't be an apostate and a muslim at the same time.  :D

SO the children of Muslim man are not Muslims if the man has left Islam?

Soren wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 1:43pm:

SO the children of Muslim man are not Muslims if the man has left Islam?

Soren are you really that retarded or are you just pretending?

If the parents are not Muslim, how is the child brought up as a Muslim?


Soren are you a Jew?

Because Jews are the only religion I know of where they assume automatic religious status for descendants brought up as non-believers - you can get Israeli citizenship if you had one Jewish grandparent even though you do not consider yourself or your parents to be Jews.

That Jewish backfired on them:

Nazis in Israel: Israeli Police Arrest a Homegrown Skinhead Gang

On Sunday police in Israel announced the arrest of eight young immigrants from the former Soviet Union who belonged to a homegrown neo-Nazi cell...

...The young men -- aged 16 to 21 -- were accused of brutal beatings of homosexuals, guest workers, drug addicts, homeless people and ultra-orthodox Jews. A video presented by police to the Israeli cabinet on Sunday documented some of the violence: It showed skinheads kicking victims to a bloody pulp and giving Nazi salutes...

...Police said the cell's leader was Eli Buanitov, a Jewish-descended Russian immigrant who swore in an e-mail never to have children. "I won't have kids," he wrote, according to detectives. "My grandfather is half Yid, so that this piece of trash won't have ancestors with even the smallest percent of Jewish blood."...

...Israel's "law of return" offers citizenship to anyone with Jewish roots traceable to a parent or a grandparent. About a million post-Soviet immigrants have moved to Israel since the Iron Curtain collapsed, making up at least one-seventh of the current population...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nazis-in-israel-israeli-police-arrest-a-homegrown-skinhead-gang-a-504803.html

Soren wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 1:43pm:

SO the children of Muslim man are not Muslims if the man has left Islam?

Of course they're not - are you trying to be funny?

So we are not all Muslims to start with and all that 'revert' talk is just bollocks?

And there is no such thing as 'Mo said kill anyone who leaves Islam'. It's all a mistranslation and all the people who have been killed because they left Islam are owed an apology fro True Colours and you and all the other Muslims.

True Colours wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 2:15pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 1:43pm: SO the children of Muslim man are not Muslims if the man has left Islam? Soren are you really that retarded or are you just pretending? If the parents are not Muslim, how is the child brought up as a Muslim?

The majority (the Hanafis, Shaafa’is and Hanbalis) are of the view that what counts is the Islam of one of the parents, whether it is the father or mother, so the children are to be regarded as Muslims, following the parent, because Islam should prevail and not be prevailed over, because it is the religion of Allah that He is pleased with for His slaves.

Secondly: When the Muslim child reaches the age of puberty, he is not required to utter the Shahaadatayn again. 
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/130231


Was there an Islamic court that recognised Obama Sr's apostasy? If not, then he would have been regarded as a Muslim under sharia. In which case his children were also Muslims at birth.

Can you show me how this is incorrect?

Soren wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 6:01pm:

So we are not all Muslims to start with and all that 'revert' talk is just bollocks?

Thats an entirely different matter, and wasn't what you were talking about.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 3:40pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 6:01pm: So we are not all Muslims to start with and all that 'revert' talk is just bollocks? Thats an entirely different matter, and wasn't what you were talking about.

Not at all.


Was there an Islamic court that recognised Obama Sr's apostasy? If not, then he would have been regarded as a Muslim under sharia. In which case his children were also Muslims at birth.

Can you show me how this is incorrect?

Soren listen to yourself. Your are becoming more and more unhinged with every post.

The idea that Obama is a muslim is no different to you being a muslim - by the logic you use.

Was there an islamic court that recognised your, or your father's apostasy? In fact, by your logic, every human being on earth who hasn't been recognised as an 'apostate' by an islamic court is muslim. Right?

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 6:41pm:

Soren listen to yourself. Your are becoming more and more unhinged with every post. The idea that Obama is a muslim is no different to you being a muslim - by the logic you use.

Bollocks. My father was not a Muslim. His father AND his step father were (and all his fathers' fathers, and their fathers before them, as the poet says.)


When were the Obamas and Soetoros, both born Muslims, release from the bonds of Islam by a sharia recognised Islamic authority?

Or are you saying that anyone can simply declare himself no longer Muslim and that's the end of the matter, they are free to confess any other religion or none under sharia law?

Soren wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 8:16pm:

Bollocks. My father was not a Muslim. His father AND his step father were (and all his fathers' fathers, and their fathers before them, as the poet says.) When were the Obamas and Soetoros, both born Muslims, release from the bonds of Islam by a sharia recognised Islamic authority? Or are you saying that anyone can simply declare himself no longer Muslim and that's the end of the matter, they are free to confess any other religion or none under sharia law?

So why did you bring up that red herring about everyone born a muslim then?

You are completely unintelligible

Actually Soren raises an interesting point that I could never get a straight answer on. Supposedly a child born to a Muslim father is considered to be Muslim and must be raised as such. (Not sure how it works with a Muslim mother as Muslim women are forbidden from having sex with non-Muslims) So at some point that child faces the death penalty for apostasy. What point is that?

Also, if everyone is considered a Muslim to start with, at what point can you accuse them of being an apostate for refusing to embrace Islam?


Quote:

Because Jews are the only religion I know of where they assume automatic religious status for descendants brought up as non-believers - you can get Israeli citizenship if you had one Jewish grandparent even though you do not consider yourself or your parents to be Jews.

TC maybe I am splitting hairs here, but being an Israeli citizen and being Jewish by religion are not the same thing. Perhaps you are confused because people use the term Jew to refer to both the religion and the ethnicity.

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

Actually Soren raises an interesting point that I could never get a straight answer on. Supposedly a child born to a Muslim father is considered to be Muslim and must be raised as such. (Not sure how it works with a Muslim mother as Muslim women are forbidden from having sex with non-Muslims) So at some point that child faces the death penalty for apostasy.

Not making a lot of sense - you seem to have left out a step.


freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

Also, if everyone is considered a Muslim to start with, at what point can you accuse them of being an apostate for refusing to embrace Islam?

::)

if someone is raised as a non-muslim, obviously they can't be held to account for not embracing islam.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:07am:

freediver wrote on Sep 26th, 2013 at 9:35pm: Actually Soren raises an interesting point that I could never get a straight answer on. Supposedly a child born to a Muslim father is considered to be Muslim and must be raised as such. (Not sure how it works with a Muslim mother as Muslim women are forbidden from having sex with non-Muslims) So at some point that child faces the death penalty for apostasy. Not making a lot of sense

He doesn't need to make sense. He has stupidity and ignorance on his side. ;D ;D ;D


http://p.bfram.es/stupidity-more-dangerous-than-crocodiles.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAKG-kbKeIo

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:07am:

freediver wrote on Sep 26th, 2013 at 9:35pm: Actually Soren raises an interesting point that I could never get a straight answer on. Supposedly a child born to a Muslim father is considered to be Muslim and must be raised as such. (Not sure how it works with a Muslim mother as Muslim women are forbidden from having sex with non-Muslims) So at some point that child faces the death penalty for apostasy. Not making a lot of sense - you seem to have left out a step.

At some stage they are considered to be a Muslim, and therefor subject to the death penalty for apostasy.


Quote:

if someone is raised as a non-muslim, obviously they can't be held to account for not embracing islam.

What if they refuse to embrace Islam even after being introduced to it?

freediver wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 12:31pm:

At some stage they are considered to be a Muslim, and therefor subject to the death penalty for apostasy.

Presumably there is some step which involves the person changing from a muslim to a non-muslim? You haven't explained what the current religion is of this hypothetical person, and if/when he/she renounced islam.

freediver wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 12:31pm:

What if they refuse to embrace Islam even after being introduced to it?

Quote:

There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Tâghût and believes in God (ar. Allah), then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And God is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Quote:

Presumably there is some step which involves the person changing from a muslim to a non-muslim? You haven't explained what the current religion is of this hypothetical person, and if/when he/she renounced islam.

The situation is that of a child being raised by a Muslim family/community to be a Muslim, and going along with it for some time, then rejecting Islam.

At what point does the death penalty for apostasy apply?


Quote:

There is no compulsion in religion.

Does the death penalty for apostasy contradict the whole "no compulsion in religion" thing?


Quote:

Tâghût

???

freediver wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 10:15pm:

Quote: Presumably there is some step which involves the person changing from a muslim to a non-muslim? You haven't explained what the current religion is of this hypothetical person, and if/when he/she renounced islam. The situation is that of a child being raised by a Muslim family/community to be a Muslim, and going along with it for some time, then rejecting Islam. Q. At what point does the death penalty for apostasy apply? ???

At the first instant, that a persons rebellion against the authority of ISLAM becomes apparent.

For filicide [in Allah's honour!], Allah is always forgiving.          :P


Google;
uk, honour killing, muslim daughter in suitcaseimarriage
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1338868086/4#4

Quote:

....ISLAMIC law specifically gives moslem men, the right to kill their children [and grandchildren]. [An ISLAMIC source is cited below], at the jihadwatch item. ISLAMIC sources declare that the killing of moslem children, by a parent, is 'lawful', within ISLAM... e.g. "British girl kidnapped by Saudi father: "I told [the police] he was keeping me there against my will and all they said was, 'He's your father, if he wants he can kill you'." Indeed, traditional Islamic law does not prescribe retaliation against a parent for killing his or her child. For example: "not subject to retaliation" is "a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring." ('Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2)." " http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/04/british-girl-kidnapped-by-saudi-father-i-told-the-police-he-was-keeping-me-there-against-my-will-and.html

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_CoN-0dL6_hY/SNptMD53_MI/AAAAAAAAAU8/W6QDhlpk-fM/s400/political-pictures-barack-obama-half-breed-muslin-cloth.jpg

True Colours wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 5:06pm:

Millions of people have been killed in George W Bush's Crusade. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br_70Kbdpow Why are people still not apostatising from Christianity? Oh wait they are. The rise of atheism in America Polls show that in the EU 20% of people are already full-blown atheists.

20% SEEMS RATHER LOW: IF THE YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT REGULARLY DOUBLES THAT IN SOME EUROPEAN COUNTRIES I WOULD RECOMMEND THAT YOU START DOUBTING YOUR SOURCES  ;) ;)

freediver wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 10:15pm:

The situation is that of a child being raised by a Muslim family/community to be a Muslim, and going along with it for some time, then rejecting Islam. At what point does the death penalty for apostasy apply?

Right. Well since I have repeatedly stated that I do not subscribe to the view that islam orders death for apostasy - you are obviously asking the wrong person.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 28^th, 2013 at 9:46pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 27th, 2013 at 10:15pm: The situation is that of a child being raised by a Muslim family/community to be a Muslim, and going along with it for some time, then rejecting Islam. At what point does the death penalty for apostasy apply? Right. Well since I have repeatedly stated that I do not subscribe to the view that islam orders death for apostasy - you are obviously asking the wrong person.

Since you don't, can you point us to the guys who DO speak for Islam?

You know you don't have to ask me S, Yadda has all the right quotes all ready to post.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 28^th, 2013 at 10:01pm:

You know you don't have to ask me S, Yadda has all the right quotes all ready to post.

...again and again...   ::) ::) ::)

Soren wrote on Sep 28^th, 2013 at 9:52pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 28th, 2013 at 9:46pm: freediver wrote on Sep 27th, 2013 at 10:15pm: The situation is that of a child being raised by a Muslim family/community to be a Muslim, and going along with it for some time, then rejecting Islam. At what point does the death penalty for apostasy apply? Right. Well since I have repeatedly stated that I do not subscribe to the view that islam orders death for apostasy - you are obviously asking the wrong person. Since you don't, can you point us to the guys who DO speak for Islam?

pffft that wont work, despite the beardy weirdies making public declarations that they blow up people in the name of Islam, mouthbreathing lefties will immediately declare that they don't. 

Islam is the religion of peace innit and those people who blow up and behead other people are not real Muslims. 

Which is news to them doing the blowing up and decapitating whilst shouting Alah Akbah!!!!

The fvckers will not own the outrages committed in the full-throated name of their Islam, only the goddamned victimhood they can garner in the name of Islam.

Dishonest, squishy, bed-wetting 'moderates'. They are the jihadists with a massive streak of cowardice.

Soren wrote on Sep 28^th, 2013 at 10:56pm:

The fvckers will not own the outrages committed in the full-throated name of their Islam, only the goddamned victimhood they can garner in the name of Islam. Dishonest, squishy, bed-wetting 'moderates'. They are the jihadists with a massive streak of cowardice.

Indeed, it is a massive scam,  on one side you have the militants committing violence in the name of Islam, yes Muslims killing people in the name of Islam and on the other side you have the hand wringers saying, you must not offend us, lest our cousins who we cannot control get angry and kill you.

Win frigging win. 

And add the leftys who for reasons I cannot explain will leap immediately to the defence of the same buggers who are happy to kill queers and deny female equality...

The progs buy the Muslim victimhood wheeze. So they leap to the defence if the supposed "victims", no matter how many murders are committed by these supposed victims, with Allah on their lips.

That's how stupid and dishonest they are, the squishy bedwetter progs and the 'moderate, chancer Muslims.  No wonder they have found each other.

Which union was it, Soren?

|dev|null wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 3:58pm:

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

|dev|null wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 1:57pm:

:D :D :D :D

|dev|null wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 1:15pm:

:D :D :D :D

|dev|null wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 1:11pm:

:D :D :D :D :D

|dev|null wrote on Sep 26^th, 2013 at 2:44pm:

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Is this a jolly pattern I see before me??

Get used to it!

It supposedly passes for commentary or answers to hard questions.

It substitutes for debate and is an indicator for the level of discussion expected from this source.

Been there, done that.  8-)

You have been warned.

:D ;D :D ;) ;D

Oh, and

::) :P ::) :o

Hot Breasts Debate, innit?

Soren wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2013 at 9:27pm:

:D ;D :D ;) ;D Oh, and ::) :P ::) :o Hot Breasts Debate, innit?

I say, old chap, as a classics scholar from the prestigious University of Balogney, how does one get one’s mouth around hot breasts in the Biblical Greek?

Thoughts?

Karnal wrote on Oct 4^th, 2013 at 12:28am:

Soren wrote on Oct 2nd, 2013 at 9:27pm: :D ;D :D ;) ;D Oh, and ::) :P ::) :o Hot Breasts Debate, innit? I say, old chap, as a classics scholar from the prestigious University of Balogney, how does one get one’s mouth around hot breasts in the Biblical Greek? Thoughts?

It's not Biblical Greek but rather classical Roman - Pero's Roman charity toward Cimon.  Every school boy knows it, PB.

Really? Good heavens. The things they learn in school these days.

Did they teach you your fellatio as well, dear boy?

Karnal wrote on Oct 4^th, 2013 at 11:11am:

Really? Good heavens. The things they learn in school these days. Did they teach you your fellatio as well, dear boy?

Is the old Nam head injury makes you forget that you are the Foucauldian cocksvcking butt pony, not me.
We don't do that sort of filthy thing at the Danish Lutheran missionary school.

Soren wrote on Oct 4^th, 2013 at 11:42am:

Karnal wrote on Oct 4th, 2013 at 11:11am: Really? Good heavens. The things they learn in school these days. Did they teach you your fellatio as well, dear boy? Is the old Nam head injury makes you forget that you are the Foucauldian cocksvcking butt pony, not me. We don't do that sort of filthy thing at the Danish Lutheran missionary school.

Oh, old boy, I beg to differ. You Huns love to eat pork sausage. As every schoolboy knows.

And Danes? Didn’t they invent sex education?

Your cocksucking skills came from that  bearded hippy teacher in the turtleneck.

Miam miam.