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Message started by # on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 4:04pm

Title: Climate Change Refugees
Post by # on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 4:04pm
For those whose minds and hearts are not shut tight.
Man From Low-Lying Island Nation Fights For Climate Refugee Status


By Ari Phillips on October 1, 2013 at 11:59 am


Tarawa atoll, Kiribati

CREDIT: AP Photo/Richard Vogel, File


If ocean levels rise by as much as three feet by the end of the century, as predicted by the Fifth IPCC Assessment report released last week, the Pacific island nation of Kiribati — composed of 32 atolls — would mostly disappear.

The potential impacts on the 100,000 citizens of Kiribati, not to mention the millions of others living in low-lying island nations and coastal areas, of this climate change-induced forced exodus are already playing out in New Zealand where a Kiribati man is trying to convince the court that he’s a climate refugee.

The man, referred to as “AF” in hearings, and his wife came to New Zealand six years ago for higher ground and better prospects, according to The Associated Press. Since then, immigration authorities have twice rejected his argument that rising sea levels make it too dangerous for him and his family to return to Kiribati.

On October 16 the case will go before New Zealand’s High Court.

Bruce Burson, a member of New Zealand’s Immigration and Protection Tribunal, has said that the legal concept of a refugee is someone that is being persecuted, which requires human interaction. Burson also said that the man’s claim was rejected because the family’s predicament was the same as faced by the entire population of Kiribati.

“The sad reality is that the environmental degradation caused by both slow and sudden-onset natural disasters is one which is faced by the Kiribati population generally,” he said.

Kiribati’s president Anote Tong is well aware of this fact and has suggested mass relocation to Fiji or even construction of floating island-type accommodation. The Kiribati government has already paid a deposit for 6,000 acres in Fiji for crop growing to provide food security.

The AP obtained a transcript of the man’s recent immigration hearing in which he describes high tides that kill crops, flood homes, and sicken residents with foul drinking water.

The legal case remains a long shot, but one that deserves close attention due to the likelihood of similar cases in the future. Sea level rise impacts not only low-lying islands with small populations but also heavily populated coastal regions, such as Kolkata, India and Dhaka, Bangladesh.

Earlier this year Dr. Rajendra Pachauri, chairperson of the IPCC, said, “There is a very high risk in delta cities like Kolkata, Shanghai and Dhaka. They are very vulnerable to the impacts of climate change due to sea level rise and coastal flooding. Both people and property would be affected in such a scenario.”

In April the Refugee Council of Australia implored the Australian government to become the first nation in the world to recognize populations displaced due to changes in climate as “climate refugees.”

Phil Glendenning, president of the Refugee Council of Australia, told The Guardian, “These are people who are not suffering from persecution because of their beliefs, race or because they belong to a particular group.” As a result, “they don’t meet the Refugee Convention criteria but, nevertheless, there will be a need for people to be resettled because they have been displaced by climate change. This is a new cohort of people who are emerging, the rest of the world needs to pay attention.”

As refugee-receiving nations like Australia and New Zealand grapple with the legal and political implications of climate refugees, island nations already reeling from the impacts of more severe weather events and sea-level rise will continue to roll with the tides and absorb the unwelcome changes as best as possible.

In the Maldives an entire new island, called Hulhumalé, has been developed by reclaiming dredged sand. When the second phase is completed in the next few years nearly 3,000 housing units will house 160,000 people — about a third of the entire population — at levels up to two meters above sea level.

[continued ...]

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by # on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 4:05pm
[... continued]

“It is the safest island in the Maldives, from sea level at least,” Ahmed Varish, at the Hulhumalé Housing Development Corporation, told The Guardian.

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Innocent bystander on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 4:17pm
Hysterical nonsense  ;D

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Deathridesahorse on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 4:20pm

Innocent bystander wrote on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 4:17pm:
Hysterical nonsense  ;D

Wow, dismissive dad strikes again!

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by # on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 4:34pm

Innocent bystander wrote on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 4:17pm:
Hysterical nonsense  ;D

Substantiation? Or are you trolling? Are you greggerypeccary?

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by muso on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 9:37pm
Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by greggerypeccary on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 9:37pm

muso wrote on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 9:32pm:
You are getting very close to being banned from Environment for trolling.



Wonderful.

Threats now, because I ask the difficult questions and point out the facts.

The alarmists can call people names and tell lies, and that's fine.

Read this, and read it good: I am not trolling - I am asking the hard questions that alarmists can't answer. 

This is what the alarmists do, everybody: disagree with them, or ask difficult questions, or point out that someone is telling lies and you get threatened with being banned.

Absolutely unbelievable..

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by # on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 9:39pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 8:22pm:
...
# is merely a brainwashed troll ...
In view of your history, which of us is the troll?


greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 8:22pm:
who believes every single thing he reads that is pro AGW ...
Experience teaches that the majority is most often right.


greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 9:14pm:
... it's the facts and the science that counts.
...
What do the vast majority of scientists who are best qualified in climate science say? Is that a fact? Is it an inconvenient truth?

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by greggerypeccary on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 9:46pm

Once again they use 'consensus', instead of science.

Consensus is not part of the scientific method.

Climate change is about science: let's stick to that, shall we?


Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by muso on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 9:47pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 9:46pm:
Once again they use 'consensus', instead of science.

Consensus is not part of the scientific method.

Climate change is about science: let's stick to that, shall we?


That's an excellent suggestion. When are you going to start?

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by greggerypeccary on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 9:53pm

muso wrote on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 9:47pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 9:46pm:
Once again they use 'consensus', instead of science.

Consensus is not part of the scientific method.

Climate change is about science: let's stick to that, shall we?


That's an excellent suggestion. When are you going to start?



Too late: I've been all about the science since day one.

Currently there is not enough reliable, credible, scientific evidence to support the AGW theory.





Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by muso on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 10:08pm
So we need to start at where you think  the point of departure is.

Is it climate sensitivity? Tell me where you think the science is going wrong.

- because we know exactly how much LWIR is absorbed by CO2.


Do you believe the Radiative Forcing for CO2 to be wrongly stated? 

Quote:
Currently there is not enough reliable, credible, scientific evidence to support the AGW theory.


It is a theory, but if your revelation is correct, then it becomes a hypothesis.

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by # on Oct 4th, 2013 at 7:30am

greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 9:37pm:
... I ask the difficult questions and point out the facts.
...
Is that what you do?

History shows you trolling and making assertions that you can't substantiate.


greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 9:46pm:
...
Consensus is not part of the scientific method.
...
Yet another assertion which you can't substantiate.


greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 9:53pm:
...
Too late: I've been all about the science since day one.

Currently there is not enough reliable, credible, scientific evidence to support the AGW theory.
If that was true, then wouldn't you be able to substantiate what you assert?

If you truly believe what you say, then why can't you substantiate any of it?

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Innocent bystander on Oct 4th, 2013 at 9:07am

# wrote on Oct 4th, 2013 at 7:30am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 9:46pm:
...
Consensus is not part of the scientific method.
...
Yet another assertion which you can't substantiate.



You global warming cranks are a crack up no sh#t  ;D

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by muso on Oct 4th, 2013 at 9:09am
Any further personal attacks like this will be removed. I certainly don't want to stifle discussion, but this kind of post will not be tolerated, and it adds nothing to the discussion. Refer to local Moderation environment.

If you have nothing of substance to add, please refrain from posting. 

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by longweekend58 on Oct 4th, 2013 at 9:37am

muso wrote on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 10:08pm:
So we need to start at where you think  the point of departure is.

Is it climate sensitivity? Tell me where you think the science is going wrong.

- because we know exactly how much LWIR is absorbed by CO2.


Do you believe the Radiative Forcing for CO2 to be wrongly stated? 

Quote:
Currently there is not enough reliable, credible, scientific evidence to support the AGW theory.


It is a theory, but if your revelation is correct, then it becomes a hypothesis.


impressive formula muso however, it does not explain the static nature of temperature over 17 years nor the sea level rises that are incredibly small.

PS. the IPCC may say one meter in 100 years but on what basis should we believe in their predictions since they change them all the time since they get them all wrong?

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Innocent bystander on Oct 4th, 2013 at 9:39am
Apparently the temperature is now hiding in the ocean  ;D

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Ajax on Oct 4th, 2013 at 9:43am
Geez guys when are you going to wake up to the fact that the AGW religion's science is crap.

To mention some of the pseudo science,

CO2 & temperature correlate.

This is a fallacy when more than one third of  ALL manmade CO2 has been released into the atmosphere after the year 1998 and temperatures have remained flat.

What about forcing here muso......??????

The missing heat is in the deep ocean (3000 metres)

You lads would have defended this argument to your graves, now in the IPCC AR5 paper they say most of the heat is in the top ocean layers (700 metres).

The argo system has failed to find this missing heat.

You boys where arguing that the buoys don't go that deep (3000 metres).

What have you to say now............????

I see that AR5 has stopped claiming that natural disasters are directly linked to climate change.

And about climate change refugees, what was it that the alarmist camp predicted by 2013 in the order of about 50 million.

You end up defending the IPCC's opinion rather than good honest science.

That's why you guys constantly have egg on your faces...!!!

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Soren on Oct 4th, 2013 at 10:02am

# wrote on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 4:04pm:
For those whose minds and hearts are not shut tight.


Lovely emotional posturing.


Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Innocent bystander on Oct 4th, 2013 at 10:04am
Lets not forget also that land subsidence is counted as a global warming sea level rise  ;D

Meanwhile the Maldivans build new airports with their free global warming money, I guess thats so they can fly out when the tide comes in  ;D

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by longweekend58 on Oct 4th, 2013 at 10:24am

Innocent bystander wrote on Oct 4th, 2013 at 9:39am:
Apparently the temperature is now hiding in the ocean  ;D


but not just anywhere... it is 'hiding' 700metres down.  after a while it all sounds too desperately ludicrous, doesn't it?

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by # on Oct 4th, 2013 at 2:28pm

longweekend58 wrote on Oct 4th, 2013 at 10:24am:

Innocent bystander wrote on Oct 4th, 2013 at 9:39am:
Apparently the temperature is now hiding in the ocean  ;D


but not just anywhere... it is 'hiding' 700metres down.  after a while it all sounds too desperately ludicrous, doesn't it?

Dunning–Kruger effect

Quote:
for a given skill, incompetent people will:

1.    tend to overestimate their own level of skill;
2.    fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
3.    fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by muso on Oct 4th, 2013 at 3:27pm

Ajax wrote on Oct 4th, 2013 at 9:43am:
CO2 & temperature correlate.

This is a fallacy when more than one third of  ALL manmade CO2 has been released into the atmosphere after the year 1998 and temperatures have remained flat.

What about forcing here muso......??????


The correct term is a Strawman., although there is quite a strong correlation between CO2 and temperature since 1955 or so, it's incorrect to imply that anybody is saying that it is the only druver of climate.

CO2 is not the only driver of climate. There are a myriad of other radiative forcings that affect the planet's energy imbalance. Volcanoes, solar variations, clouds, methane, aerosols - these all change the way energy enters and/or leaves our climate.  We discussed this in another thread.

CO2 has emerged as a major driver of climate since the 50's, but the forcing due to CO2 is offset by the negative forcing due to aerosols.

This graph is taken from the latest IPCC WG1 report.

Does it show CO2 as the only forcing?
No it doesn't, because nobody is claiming that.
graph12.jpeg (65 KB | 25 )

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Ajax on Oct 5th, 2013 at 11:20am

muso wrote on Oct 4th, 2013 at 3:27pm:
The correct term is a Strawman., although there is quite a strong correlation between CO2 and temperature since 1955 or so, it's incorrect to imply that anybody is saying that it is the only druver of climate.


If anything your case is the strawman because you cannot prove it.

So then do you think the IPCC is wrong when it says all the warming in the last 60 odd years is due to anthropogenic CO2 emissions.......??????

You cant have it both ways mate....???....either it is or it isn't.............????...which one is it.....?????


Quote:
CO2 is not the only driver of climate. There are a myriad of other radiative forcings that affect the planet's energy imbalance. Volcanoes, solar variations, clouds, methane, aerosols - these all change the way energy enters and/or leaves our climate.  We discussed this in another thread.


Fine I agree.


Quote:
CO2 has emerged as a major driver of climate since the 50's, but the forcing due to CO2 is offset by the negative forcing due to aerosols.


If its the major driver why have temperatures remained flat while 440 gigatonnes of CO2 have gone into the atmosphere since the 1998, and as you know this is more than one third of all manmade CO2 emissions.



Is there any correlation between CO2 and temperature?

(1).....On a small time scale
(NO), (11,000 years)

Showing from 200 to 11000 years ago, the subsequent graph is based on ice core data, readily visible in files hosted on the servers of the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA):GISP 2 and EPICA Dome C

Graph-1


http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/04/11/does-co2-correlate-with-temperature-history-a-look-at-multiple-timescales-in-the-context-of-the-shakun-et-al-paper/

(2).....On a medium time scale YES???, (450,000 years)

(NO) , It appears so because of the scale we are zoomed out at.

WARNING ! This is the scale that most global warming sites use to scare the unsuspecting.

Over the past few hundred thousand years of ice core data, a “medium” time scale in this sense, CO2 superficially appears to change in step with temperature if a graph is so zoomed out as to not show sub-millennial time
scales well

Graph-2


http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/04/11/does-co2-correlate-with-temperature-history-a-look-at-multiple-timescales-in-the-context-of-the-shakun-et-al-paper/

A record of temperature and atmospheric CO2 over the past 400,000 years is preserved in the Vostok Ice Core and is shown in the figure on the right.

It can be seen that there have been a series of large fluctuations in temperature (the Ice Ages), accompanied by large changes in atmospheric CO2.

It is thought that these large temperature fluctuations are triggered by Milankovitch cycles - variations in the earth's orbit that change the amount of energy from the sun that reaches us.

However, on their own, these cycles are not enough to explain the changes in temperature.

The full explanation seems to be that the small change in temperature caused by the changing orbit are amplified by natural processes on earth. These cause CO2 to be released from the oceans and the biosphere, causing an increased greenhouse effect.

This is described more fully in this article from the New Scientist (see also Shackleton 2000). For more details on the timing of changes in CO2 and temperature, click on the figure.

http://www.brighton73.freeserve.co.uk/gw/paleo/paleoclimate.htm#100,000years

(3).....On a long time scale (NO) , (millions of years)

Graph-3


[url]http://s155.n46.n171.n68.static.myhostcenter.com/WVFossils/Reference_Docs/Geocarb_III-Berner.pdf[/urll]

(4).....Lately





Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Ajax on Oct 5th, 2013 at 11:36am
So where is the correlation......?????

We should have been getting warmer and warmer since more and more CO2 is going into the atmosphere....????

And don't give me that crap about SO2 offsetting the CO2.


Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by chicken_lipsforme on Oct 11th, 2013 at 3:19pm

# wrote on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 4:04pm:
For those whose minds and hearts are not shut tight.
Man From Low-Lying Island Nation Fights For Climate Refugee Status


By Ari Phillips on October 1, 2013 at 11:59 am


Tarawa atoll, Kiribati

CREDIT: AP Photo/Richard Vogel, File


If ocean levels rise by as much as three feet by the end of the century, as predicted by the Fifth IPCC Assessment report released last week, the Pacific island nation of Kiribati — composed of 32 atolls — would mostly disappear.

The potential impacts on the 100,000 citizens of Kiribati, not to mention the millions of others living in low-lying island nations and coastal areas, of this climate change-induced forced exodus are already playing out in New Zealand where a Kiribati man is trying to convince the court that he’s a climate refugee.

The man, referred to as “AF” in hearings, and his wife came to New Zealand six years ago for higher ground and better prospects, according to The Associated Press. Since then, immigration authorities have twice rejected his argument that rising sea levels make it too dangerous for him and his family to return to Kiribati.

On October 16 the case will go before New Zealand’s High Court.

Bruce Burson, a member of New Zealand’s Immigration and Protection Tribunal, has said that the legal concept of a refugee is someone that is being persecuted, which requires human interaction. Burson also said that the man’s claim was rejected because the family’s predicament was the same as faced by the entire population of Kiribati.

“The sad reality is that the environmental degradation caused by both slow and sudden-onset natural disasters is one which is faced by the Kiribati population generally,” he said.

Kiribati’s president Anote Tong is well aware of this fact and has suggested mass relocation to Fiji or even construction of floating island-type accommodation. The Kiribati government has already paid a deposit for 6,000 acres in Fiji for crop growing to provide food security.

The AP obtained a transcript of the man’s recent immigration hearing in which he describes high tides that kill crops, flood homes, and sicken residents with foul drinking water.

The legal case remains a long shot, but one that deserves close attention due to the likelihood of similar cases in the future. Sea level rise impacts not only low-lying islands with small populations but also heavily populated coastal regions, such as Kolkata, India and Dhaka, Bangladesh.

Earlier this year Dr. Rajendra Pachauri, chairperson of the IPCC, said, “There is a very high risk in delta cities like Kolkata, Shanghai and Dhaka. They are very vulnerable to the impacts of climate change due to sea level rise and coastal flooding. Both people and property would be affected in such a scenario.”

In April the Refugee Council of Australia implored the Australian government to become the first nation in the world to recognize populations displaced due to changes in climate as “climate refugees.”

Phil Glendenning, president of the Refugee Council of Australia, told The Guardian, “These are people who are not suffering from persecution because of their beliefs, race or because they belong to a particular group.” As a result, “they don’t meet the Refugee Convention criteria but, nevertheless, there will be a need for people to be resettled because they have been displaced by climate change. This is a new cohort of people who are emerging, the rest of the world needs to pay attention.”

As refugee-receiving nations like Australia and New Zealand grapple with the legal and political implications of climate refugees, island nations already reeling from the impacts of more severe weather events and sea-level rise will continue to roll with the tides and absorb the unwelcome changes as best as possible.[quote]



Kiribati is a coral island group.
And coral islands have been receding and rising out of the oceans for a millennia, which has absolutely bugger all to do with supposed rising sea levels.
The IPCC should stop scaring the natives.

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Old Codger on Oct 11th, 2013 at 3:27pm
EFFING hysterical nonsense!

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by # on Oct 15th, 2013 at 5:55am

Old Codger wrote on Oct 11th, 2013 at 3:27pm:
EFFING hysterical nonsense!

Do you have something of substance to say or is it just that the  scientific consensus offends your world view?

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by ImSpartacus2 on Oct 15th, 2013 at 6:15am

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 5:55am:

Old Codger wrote on Oct 11th, 2013 at 3:27pm:
EFFING hysterical nonsense!

Do you have something of substance to say or is it just that the  scientific consensus offends your world view?

Hi #,
I can't copy at the moment but can I refer you to my last post on the Anthropogenic global warming thread. Its about astroturfing and sockpuppets. It Might explain some of the posters here

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Ajax on Oct 15th, 2013 at 8:45am

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 6:15am:

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 5:55am:

Old Codger wrote on Oct 11th, 2013 at 3:27pm:
EFFING hysterical nonsense!

Do you have something of substance to say or is it just that the  scientific consensus offends your world view?

Hi #,
I can't copy at the moment but can I refer you to my last post on the Anthropogenic global warming thread. Its about astroturfing and sockpuppets. It Might explain some of the posters here


People have a right to their opinion just because it conflicts with your beliefs, it doesn't give you the right to try and convince all the other forumites and the occasional reader that everyone except you is wrong.

If it was religion we were talking about, you would be a bible basher....???

Wake up to yourself and grow some balls FFS.

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by chicken_lipsforme on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:01am

longweekend58 wrote on Oct 4th, 2013 at 9:37am:

muso wrote on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 10:08pm:
So we need to start at where you think  the point of departure is.

Is it climate sensitivity? Tell me where you think the science is going wrong.

- because we know exactly how much LWIR is absorbed by CO2.


Do you believe the Radiative Forcing for CO2 to be wrongly stated? 

Quote:
Currently there is not enough reliable, credible, scientific evidence to support the AGW theory.


It is a theory, but if your revelation is correct, then it becomes a hypothesis.


impressive formula muso however, it does not explain the static nature of temperature over 17 years nor the sea level rises that are incredibly small.

PS. the IPCC may say one meter in 100 years but on what basis should we believe in their predictions since they change them all the time since they get them all wrong?


Well their predictions cannot ever be taken seriously simply because they have gotten all the previous ones wrong.
We are still waiting patiently for the 50,000 climate change refugees that the UN stated a few years back would arrive on our shores by 2010.
They keep peddling the line that melting ice is going to cause massive sea level rises over time, however the last time I melted a full glass of ice with water added up to the rim of the glass prior to the ice melting, guess what?
Yup.
Not one drop went over the rim.
Why?
Because the weight of the ice and water already present equals the weight of the water when melted therefore resulting in no rise whatsoever.
All the scientific soothsayers can only show as evidence of supposed sea level rises is coral islands sinking.
However they don't bother to show the coral islands that rise out of the sea.
The soothsayers are going to need more than a few coral islands disappearing I'm afraid if they wish to be taken seriously.

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by # on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:44am

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:01am:
...
Well their predictions cannot ever be taken seriously simply because they have gotten all the previous ones wrong.
...

All of them? Can you substantiate that assertion?

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Ajax on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:50am

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:44am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:01am:
...
Well their predictions cannot ever be taken seriously simply because they have gotten all the previous ones wrong.
...

All of them? Can you substantiate that assertion?


Can you prove that assertion wrong..................??????

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by # on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:53am

Ajax wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 8:45am:
...
People have a right to their opinion just because it conflicts with your beliefs, it doesn't give you the right to try and convince all the other forumites and the occasional reader that everyone except you is wrong.
...

Is it a question of rights? I reckon it's more one of credibility.
Dunning–Kruger effect

Quote:
for a given skill, incompetent people will:

1.    tend to overestimate their own level of skill;
2.    fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
3.    fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;


To me, it looks like ImSpartacus2 is saying you're not the ignorant nut job you pretend to be. Just a a sockpuppet.

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by # on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:56am

Ajax wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:50am:

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:44am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:01am:
...
Well their predictions cannot ever be taken seriously simply because they have gotten all the previous ones wrong.
...

All of them? Can you substantiate that assertion?


Can you prove that assertion wrong..................??????

Isn't substantiation down to the one making the assertion? Evidently, you can't substantiate it. Did you make it up?

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Ajax on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:00am

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:56am:

Ajax wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:50am:

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:44am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:01am:
...
Well their predictions cannot ever be taken seriously simply because they have gotten all the previous ones wrong.
...

All of them? Can you substantiate that assertion?


Can you prove that assertion wrong..................??????

Isn't substantiation down to the one making the assertion? Evidently, you can't substantiate it. Did you make it up?



The IPCC have been proven wrong on many occasions, see below..!!!!

The missing heat of the last 15 years in somewhere in the oceans.

There was no medieval warm period or mini ice age.

All glaciers would be gone by 2035.

All the ice in the arctic would be gone by 2013.

There is a hot spot in the tropopause.

Co2 & temperature correlate.

Mosquitos and malaria would spread because of AGW.

All natural disasters are caused from anthropogenic global warming.

Ocean acidity of 0.3 pH units over the next 90 years will be catastrophic when ocean acidity changes much more than this on a daily bases.

The shonkey hockey stick which no one is allowed to analyse..............climate gate......????

Sea levels are rising uncontrollably...!!!!!

The IPCC's 1990 prediction of unequivocal warming of 0.2 degrees celcius per decade when for the last 15 years we have only had 0.05 degrees celcius per decade.


Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by ImSpartacus2 on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:17am
Are you a sock puppet Ajax and whose sock puppet are you? How many NICs have you got Ajax pretending to be different people? If its so you are a disgusting pig and one day there will be retribution for your disgusting deception on humanity.

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Innocent bystander on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:21am

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:17am:
Are you a sock puppet Ajax and whose sock puppet are you? How many NICs have you got Ajax pretending to be different people? If its so you are a disgusting pig and one day there will be retribution for your disgusting deception on humanity.



Again the crazy religious aspect creeps in  :D :D :D

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by # on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:31am

Ajax wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:00am:

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:56am:

Ajax wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:50am:

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:44am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:01am:
...
Well their predictions cannot ever be taken seriously simply because they have gotten all the previous ones wrong.
...

All of them? Can you substantiate that assertion?


Can you prove that assertion wrong..................??????

Isn't substantiation down to the one making the assertion? Evidently, you can't substantiate it. Did you make it up?



The IPCC have been proven wrong on many occasions, see below..!!!!

The missing heat of the last 15 years in somewhere in the oceans.

There was no medieval warm period or mini ice age.

All glaciers would be gone by 2035.

All the ice in the arctic would be gone by 2013.

There is a hot spot in the tropopause.

Co2 & temperature correlate.

Mosquitos and malaria would spread because of AGW.

All natural disasters are caused from anthropogenic global warming.

Ocean acidity of 0.3 pH units over the next 90 years will be catastrophic when ocean acidity changes much more than this on a daily bases.

The shonkey hockey stick which no one is allowed to analyse..............climate gate......????

Sea levels are rising uncontrollably...!!!!!

The IPCC's 1990 prediction of unequivocal warming of 0.2 degrees celcius per decade when for the last 15 years we have only had 0.05 degrees celcius per decade.

A list of assertions is not substantiation. All you've done is give yourself more that you need to substantiate.

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by # on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:32am

Innocent bystander wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:21am:
...
Again the crazy religious aspect creeps in ...
You mean Ajax's denial?

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Ajax on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:35am

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:17am:
Are you a sock puppet Ajax and whose sock puppet are you? How many NICs have you got Ajax pretending to be different people? If its so you are a disgusting pig and one day there will be retribution for your disgusting deception on humanity.


Dude I think you may need some psychiatry....!!!!

How about debating the science rather than name calling...???

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Ajax on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:36am

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:31am:
A list of assertions is not substantiation. All you've done is give yourself more that you need to substantiate.


Can you refute them.......???????

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Ajax on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:38am

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:32am:

Innocent bystander wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:21am:
...
Again the crazy religious aspect creeps in ...
You mean Ajax's denial?


# you guys are the denialists we are the sceptics.

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by # on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:43am

Ajax wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:36am:

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:31am:
A list of assertions is not substantiation. All you've done is give yourself more that you need to substantiate.


Can you refute them.......???????

Can you substantiate them?

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Ajax on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:45am

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:43am:

Ajax wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:36am:

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:31am:
A list of assertions is not substantiation. All you've done is give yourself more that you need to substantiate.


Can you refute them.......???????

Can you substantiate them?


only if you refute them.............?????

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by # on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:46am

Ajax wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:38am:

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:32am:

Innocent bystander wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:21am:
...
Again the crazy religious aspect creeps in ...
You mean Ajax's denial?


# you guys are the denialists we are the sceptics.

Sceptics take into account all of the available information. I've been doing that for more than half a century.

Al Gore's little film apparently came as a shock to you. I wondered why it caused a fuss.

You're no sceptic.

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by # on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:47am

Ajax wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:45am:

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:43am:

Ajax wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:36am:

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:31am:
A list of assertions is not substantiation. All you've done is give yourself more that you need to substantiate.


Can you refute them.......???????

Can you substantiate them?


only if you refute them.............?????

So you tacitly concede that you made up your assertions.

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Ajax on Oct 15th, 2013 at 11:07am

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:46am:
Sceptics take into account all of the available information. I've been doing that for more than half a century.

Al Gore's little film apparently came as a shock to you. I wondered why it caused a fuss.

You're no sceptic.


Have you taken into account this......???

Judge attacks nine errors in Al Gore's 'alarmist' climate change film
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-486969/Judge-attacks-errors-Al-Gores-alarmist-climate-change-film.html

Al Gore's 'nine Inconvenient Untruths'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/3310137/Al-Gores-nine-Inconvenient-Untruths.html

This is what their brainwashing school kids with...???

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Ajax on Oct 15th, 2013 at 11:08am

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:47am:

Ajax wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:45am:

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:43am:

Ajax wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:36am:

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:31am:
A list of assertions is not substantiation. All you've done is give yourself more that you need to substantiate.


Can you refute them.......???????

Can you substantiate them?


only if you refute them.............?????

So you tacitly concede that you made up your assertions.


No amount of word play will make you right.....???

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by chicken_lipsforme on Oct 15th, 2013 at 11:42am

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:44am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:01am:
...
Well their predictions cannot ever be taken seriously simply because they have gotten all the previous ones wrong.
...

All of them? Can you substantiate that assertion?


You require me to prove something that hasn't happened?
Have I got that right?

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by # on Oct 15th, 2013 at 3:22pm

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 11:42am:

# wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:44am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 9:01am:
...
Well their predictions cannot ever be taken seriously simply because they have gotten all the previous ones wrong.
...

All of them? Can you substantiate that assertion?


You require me to prove something that hasn't happened?
...

The adjective "previous"
Quote:
existing or happening before the present time
The answer to your question was in your assertion.

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by ImSpartacus2 on Oct 15th, 2013 at 6:49pm

Ajax wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:35am:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:17am:
Are you a sock puppet Ajax and whose sock puppet are you? How many NICs have you got Ajax pretending to be different people? If its so you are a disgusting pig and one day there will be retribution for your disgusting deception on humanity.


Dude I think you may need some psychiatry....!!!!

How about debating the science rather than name calling...???

Why would I debate the science with you. You don't, know sh!t about the science. It would be like asking a preschooler whether he/she believes in the theory of relativity.  By the way do you want to answer the question. Do you receive any $$$ or other kinds of benefit for posting your denialist materials on this or any other forum. Its a reasonable question given your hysterical closed minded approach to the subject. 

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by greggerypeccary on Oct 15th, 2013 at 6:53pm

Ajax wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:35am:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 10:17am:
Are you a sock puppet Ajax and whose sock puppet are you? How many NICs have you got Ajax pretending to be different people? If its so you are a disgusting pig and one day there will be retribution for your disgusting deception on humanity.



How about debating the science rather than name calling...???



AGW is "an undeniable fact of nature".  Didn't you know?

Science has nothing to do with it.

Arrogance, lies, and ignorance: these are the alarmists' weapons of choice.



Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Innocent bystander on Oct 15th, 2013 at 6:55pm

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 6:49pm:
Do you receive any $$$ or other kinds of benefit for posting your denialist materials on this or any other forum. Its a reasonable question given your hysterical closed minded approach to the subject. 




Mate seriously, you are entering padded cell territory here  ;D

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by greggerypeccary on Oct 15th, 2013 at 7:00pm

Innocent bystander wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 6:55pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 6:49pm:
Do you receive any $$$ or other kinds of benefit for posting your denialist materials on this or any other forum. Its a reasonable question given your hysterical closed minded approach to the subject. 




Mate seriously, you are entering padded cell territory here  ;D







Medication time, me thinks.



Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Innocent bystander on Oct 15th, 2013 at 7:05pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 7:00pm:
Medication time, me thinks.




Yep, he's living proof of the harmful effects of global warming, its time we put him in a global warming travelling circus to tour the country and warn others of what can happen if you read too much scepticalscience

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by greggerypeccary on Oct 15th, 2013 at 7:20pm

Innocent bystander wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 7:05pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 7:00pm:
Medication time, me thinks.




Yep, he's living proof of the harmful effects of global warming, its time we put him in a global warming travelling circus to tour the country and warn others of what can happen if you read too much scepticalscience



A three-ring circus?  Spartacus and two other arseholes?

# and ... ?






Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Ajax on Oct 16th, 2013 at 8:55am

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 6:49pm:
Why would I debate the science with you. You don't, know sh!t about the science. It would be like asking a preschooler whether he/she believes in the theory of relativity.  By the way do you want to answer the question. Do you receive any $$$ or other kinds of benefit for posting your denialist materials on this or any other forum. Its a reasonable question given your hysterical closed minded approach to the subject. 


You wont debate the science because its full of holes and it will get you shot down very quickly.

And your the one that is hysterical about big oil dollars...???

How about your mate Dana Nuccitelli over at sceptical science ask him about big oil dollars.

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by ImSpartacus2 on Oct 16th, 2013 at 1:21pm

Ajax wrote on Oct 16th, 2013 at 8:55am:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 15th, 2013 at 6:49pm:
Why would I debate the science with you. You don't, know sh!t about the science. It would be like asking a preschooler whether he/she believes in the theory of relativity.  By the way do you want to answer the question. Do you receive any $$$ or other kinds of benefit for posting your denialist materials on this or any other forum. Its a reasonable question given your hysterical closed minded approach to the subject. 


You wont debate the science because its full of holes and it will get you shot down very quickly.

And your the one that is hysterical about big oil dollars...???

How about your mate Dana Nuccitelli over at sceptical science ask him about big oil dollars.

No, I don't debate the science with you because your not a scientist and don't know sh!t. And I recommend this course to everyone interest in finding out the truth about global warming. If they have their doubt's go to real Climate Scientists and what they have written to answer your questions and if real climate scientists who doubt human caused global warming are hard to find that might give you a clue about where the real science is at on the subject. To go to Ajax instead to answer your global warming doubts would be like watching a day time soap to answer your questions about the meaning of life.

Title: Re: Climate Change Refugees
Post by Ajax on Oct 16th, 2013 at 1:54pm

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 16th, 2013 at 1:21pm:
No, I don't debate the science with you because your not a scientist and don't know sh!t. And I recommend this course to everyone interest in finding out the truth about global warming. If they have their doubt's go to real Climate Scientists and what they have written to answer your questions and if real climate scientists who doubt human caused global warming are hard to find that might give you a clue about where the real science is at on the subject. To go to Ajax instead to answer your global warming doubts would be like watching a day time soap to answer your questions about the meaning of life.


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