http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmKVLqHuxBA

"Where did the universe come from, and why?"

... and the correct response to these questions is ...

These two questions themselves are predicated upon the assumption that the 'answers' are able to be expressed in words. 

Next time you're out and about ~ have a look at the size of the average person's head. The brain capacity is way too small for calculating anything beyond the very most basics of understanding the fundamentals of Nature, and the various sciences that makes the universe spin and evolve.

Bottom line ... If you don't know the answers to these two questions, then it's a logical fallacy to then suppose that the fall-back position and the default answer must leave us with the conclusion that there is a Creator.

********

For me personally, it doesn't matter if there are a hundred Gods Out There ~ or none.

I've seen enough to know that 'justice-and-mercy ... sympathy-and-understanding' are a product of the human capacity for empathizing with ones fellow human beings.   


 

Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 12^th, 2013 at 1:53pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 12th, 2013 at 1:53pm: "Where did the universe come from, and why?" These two questions themselves are predicated upon the assumption that the 'answers' are able to be expressed in words.  Yes Herbert human beings communicate with words - as opposed to  a simian response which might be to answer by flinging faeces around. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD2JnKUMB-A Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 12th, 2013 at 1:53pm: Bottom line ... If you don't know the answers to these two questions, then it's a logical fallacy to then suppose that the fall-back position and the default answer must leave us with the conclusion that there is a Creator. Is there any other answer that is logical? A theory even? Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 12th, 2013 at 1:53pm: For me personally, it doesn't matter if there are a hundred Gods Out There ~ or none. Why do you always take extreme positions? If there were a hundred gods they would be fighting each other for supremacy. If there were no gods then the world could not exist. That leaves only one logical amount of gods - one. [quote author=Herbert link=1381547153/1#1 date=1381550039]I've seen enough to know that 'justice-and-mercy ... sympathy-and-understanding' are a product of the human capacity for empathizing with ones fellow human beings.

You talk of justice and mercy, yet you have demonstrated none for your fellow man on this forum. I wonder if you would even recognise it if you saw it.


 

True Colours wrote on Oct 12^th, 2013 at 3:31pm:

Yes Herbert human beings communicate with words - as opposed to  a simian response which might be to answer by flinging faeces around.

You misunderstood me.

I meant that the answers to these type of questions are best given in the form of equations ~ just as Einstein 'explained' his various insights.

Needless to say, it will eventually be computer-models that will answer a lot of the questions that cosmologists will continue to ask in the future.


True Colours wrote on Oct 12^th, 2013 at 3:31pm:

Is there any other answer that is logical? A theory even?

Yes. It only requires that we put enough known elements into the Final Equation for a credible Answer to emerge.

We'll have to be patient, TB.

The Higgs-Boson Particle has only just been proven to exist. The frontiers of knowledge about our universe is expanding all the time.


True Colours wrote on Oct 12^th, 2013 at 3:31pm:

If there were a hundred gods they would be fighting each other supremacy.

Wrong. They would be in total harmony with one another just the same as with an insect colony.


True Colours wrote on Oct 12^th, 2013 at 3:31pm:

If there were no gods then the world could not exist.

Please explain.


True Colours wrote on Oct 12^th, 2013 at 3:31pm:

That leaves only one logical amount of gods - one.

Allah?  Is that where we've been heading here?  8-)


True Colours wrote on Oct 12^th, 2013 at 3:31pm:

You talk of justice an mercy, yet you have demonstrated non for your fellow man on this forum. I wonder if you would even recognise it if you saw it.

Is it any wonder I feel like Christ-on-the-Cross sometimes ~ my humanity denied, my virtue insulted and abused, and my Essential Goodness scorned and reviled by those who have eyes but who do not wish to see ... ?

Enjoy the rest of your evening, TB.

In the Fullness of Time you may yet become one of my loyal disciples, at which time I will wash your feet to demonstrate my humility.

8-)

Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 12^th, 2013 at 1:53pm:

10 "Where did the universe come from, and why?" ... and the correct response to these questions is ... These two questions themselves are predicated upon the assumption that the 'answers' are able to be expressed in words.  Next time you're out and about ~ have a look at the size of the average person's head. The brain capacity is way too small for calculating anything beyond the very most basics of understanding the fundamentals of Nature, and the various sciences that makes the universe spin and evolve. Bottom line ... If you don't know the answers to these two questions, then it's a logical fallacy to then suppose that the fall-back position and the default answer must leave us with the conclusion that there is a Creator.

Where did the Creator come from, and why?"

Substitute Universe for Creator and Goto 10. Then follow an infinite and rather pointless loop.

muso wrote on Oct 24^th, 2013 at 10:06pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 12th, 2013 at 1:53pm: 10 "Where did the universe come from, and why?" ... and the correct response to these questions is ... These two questions themselves are predicated upon the assumption that the 'answers' are able to be expressed in words.  Next time you're out and about ~ have a look at the size of the average person's head. The brain capacity is way too small for calculating anything beyond the very most basics of understanding the fundamentals of Nature, and the various sciences that makes the universe spin and evolve. Bottom line ... If you don't know the answers to these two questions, then it's a logical fallacy to then suppose that the fall-back position and the default answer must leave us with the conclusion that there is a Creator. Where did the Creator come from, and why?" Substitute Universe for Creator and Goto 10. Then follow an infinite and rather pointless loop.

That is a good [and useful] question, muso.

But even for those of us who believe that there is a God, the answer is way, way, beyond our ken.




One thing that makes sense though......
.....the more that we humans come to know and to understand about our own circumstances,
.....the more that we humans come to understand how little we 'know'.



Mostly, human knowledge and understanding, imo, is has been revealed to be an endless 'game', of 'advancing' suppositions.

???





Ecclesiastes 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
14  I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.



The vanity of man is boundless.

I am speaking from personal experience.       ;D

Yadda wrote on Oct 25^th, 2013 at 12:09am:

That is a good [and useful] question, muso. But even for those of us who believe that there is a God, the answer is way, way, beyond our ken.

Whether the term is creator or universe or life, or love - the answer is always existential.

- Because it is.

Regardless of whether we use the inspiration of religions or not, we all add our own meaning to life. We get on with it.

Yadda wrote on Oct 25^th, 2013 at 12:09am:

muso wrote on Oct 24th, 2013 at 10:06pm: Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 12th, 2013 at 1:53pm: 10 "Where did the universe come from, and why?" ... and the correct response to these questions is ... These two questions themselves are predicated upon the assumption that the 'answers' are able to be expressed in words.  Next time you're out and about ~ have a look at the size of the average person's head. The brain capacity is way too small for calculating anything beyond the very most basics of understanding the fundamentals of Nature, and the various sciences that makes the universe spin and evolve. Bottom line ... If you don't know the answers to these two questions, then it's a logical fallacy to then suppose that the fall-back position and the default answer must leave us with the conclusion that there is a Creator. Where did the Creator come from, and why?" Substitute Universe for Creator and Goto 10. Then follow an infinite and rather pointless loop. That is a good [and useful] question, muso. But even for those of us who believe that there is a God, the answer is way, way, beyond our ken.

To which I add that comprehending a purely material universe is also beyond our ken.
God is unimaginable.
Spontaneous appearance of matter, out of nothing, is unimaginable if you stay within the bounds of science.
Spontaneously appearing matter then spontaneously taking the leap to house intelligence - totally unimaginable.

Yes, the imagination is severely limited when it comes to infinity. At that juncture, we get into the scary realm of mathematics.

Here be monsters.

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/BBNS.html

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/BBNS-vs-t-75rc.gif


A useful citation:

Quote:

The Bible was written to show us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go.

- Cardinal Baronius (1598)

muso wrote on Oct 24^th, 2013 at 10:06pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 12th, 2013 at 1:53pm: 10 "Where did the universe come from, and why?" ... and the correct response to these questions is ... These two questions themselves are predicated upon the assumption that the 'answers' are able to be expressed in words.  Next time you're out and about ~ have a look at the size of the average person's head. The brain capacity is way too small for calculating anything beyond the very most basics of understanding the fundamentals of Nature, and the various sciences that makes the universe spin and evolve. Bottom line ... If you don't know the answers to these two questions, then it's a logical fallacy to then suppose that the fall-back position and the default answer must leave us with the conclusion that there is a Creator. #1, Where did the Creator come from, and why?"

Posing that kind of question, creates a very useful device for all persons who desire to entertain the idea [the belief] of atheism.

As, that particular question succeeds in bringing 'the question' of the existence of [a hidden, an invisible] God, back to a very mundane and earthy level of enquiry.

But still [and if you do believe that there is a God], 'the question' [#1,] remains an intriguing and valid question.

To ask, 'Where did God come from?', is a valid Q.





Another Q;

#2, If God declares [in scripture] that he deserves and desires to be worshipped and adored [and feared!] [AND, that mankind is his creation], then why does God so comprehensively seek to [and does succeed in,] hiding his [formal] existence, from the understanding of man[kind] ?

We can seek to propose answers  [to #1, #2].

But any answers that we [mankind] would propose, would 1st, have to make assumptions, about the nature and character of God.

But [assuming such a God exists] do we really know anything, about either 'the nature' and 'the circumstance' of God ?




But i wouldn't put the answers to such questions [#1, #2] in the realm of unknowable, or unimaginable.

Because simple reason would suggest that [if such a God exists, then] answers to those questions do exist, and are 'knowable'.

It is just that, at this juncture, we do not know the answer(s).






+++


The God of creation is HOLY [pure].

What does that mean ?

What does the word HOLY mean ?

What is the implication for all men, of God's holiness ?





Numbers 16:5
And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.




Isaiah 41:8
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
9  Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.


Who is 'Israel' ?

Why does God choose Israel ?

Yadda wrote on Oct 26^th, 2013 at 12:50am:

Who is 'Israel' ? Why does God choose Israel ?

Let me see. The Biblical tradition came from Israel, so if "God" had chosen say Japan, and said that the Japanese were the chosen ones, then I guess it's remotely possible that the Israelites wouldn't have been so keen to take it up.

God says the Japanese are his chosen ones   :o - oh well, where did we put that Statue of Ba'al ?

Getting back to science. Do I believe that Science and religion can be compatible? Of course I do.

If you're a Christian, can you honestly have any idea how God created life? Is it not conceivable that the evidence of our observations gives us a hint? Is it not extremely arrogant to suppose that Goid constructed the first man in an instant like some magic show?  Isn't that a dangerous assumption?

muso wrote on Oct 26^th, 2013 at 9:59am:

Yadda wrote on Oct 26th, 2013 at 12:50am: Who is 'Israel' ? Why does God choose Israel ? Let me see. The Biblical tradition came from Israel, so if "God" had chosen say Japan, and said that the Japanese were the chosen ones, then I guess it's remotely possible that the Israelites wouldn't have been so keen to take it up. God says the Japanese are his chosen ones   :o - oh well, where did we put that Statue of Ba'al ?

muso,

I am Israel, you are Israel, gandalf is Israel.

[And we in this world, do worship at the statue of Baal.]



Romans 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
.....
18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?


But it is for us, to find grace ['favour'] in God's sight.

Read Exodus 33:12-19

If gandalf is Israel, will gandalf find grace, in God's sight ?

Do you know what it takes, muso ?








Quote:

Getting back to science. Do I believe that Science and religion can be compatible? Of course I do.

Can Science and religion be compatible?

Hmmmm ?

Well, muso, i think that the question should be; Can Science and religion be separated ?

Does Science have established [functioning] temples ?

Does Science have holy altars, and does Science have 'authorised', [seemingly] immutable doctrines ?

And [like religion] does science create suppositions and call those suppositions, truth ?

Hmmmm ?

Or am i being too rude, to slander the purity of science in such a way ?iQuote:

If you're a Christian, can you honestly have any idea howGod created life? Is it not conceivable that the evidence of our observations gives us a hint? Is it not extremely arrogant to suppose that Goid constructed the first man in an instant like some magic show?  Isn't that a dangerous assumption?

muso,

I do not know how God created life, nor how God created this 'reality'.

When i meditate upon those questions, i realise what a puny 'thing' i am.

I am in awe of God.

I do not have any understanding of my own being/existence.

I believe, that i understand only a minute part, about my own circumstances in this temporal world.

I understand very, very little, about the 'reality' which manifests itself, as this temporal world [and universe].

I do not understand my 'beginnings'.

I do not understand or know what my 'end' will be.

I am in awe of God, and i am intrigued by his existence, and by his interest in me.

I am intrigued by the !!REALITY!! [the spirit realm] in which [i assume], 'God' exists.

I do not understand or know what 'spirit' is.

And yet, when i leave here [when i leave this temporal world], it is my deep abiding desire, to go to, and 'to be', to exist, in the enveloping, loving presence of, 'God'.



Psalms 84:10
....I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.

I would rather NOT EXIST, than to dwell in 'the darkness'.



From my own perspective ['mountain top'] many of us are destined for the darkness.

Is God a righteous being, that so many of us seem destined for the darkness ?


Matthew 13:47
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48  Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49  So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50  And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Ezekiel 33:11
....As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live....

Yadda wrote on Oct 27^th, 2013 at 8:50am:

Quote: Do you know what it takes, muso ? [quote]Getting back to science. Do I believe that Science and religion can be compatible? Of course I do. Can Science and religion be compatible? Hmmmm ? Well, muso, i think that the question should be; Can Science and religion be separated ?

muso,

I do not know how God created life, nor how God created this 'reality'.

When i meditate upon those questions, i realise what a puny 'thing' i am.

I am in awe of God.

I do not have any understanding of my own being/existence.

[/quote]

Maybe you should try it.  To me, it is hypocrisy of the highest order on the part of the Intelligent Design brigade to presume that they know the means and methodology of creation.

We can learn a great deal from observation - from just opening our eyes. The fine detail of existence and of life are pretty awe-inspiring.

You can call it the processes and the circumstances of how life came about or regard it as the processes of God if you prefer.

How did the first cells come about? One of the current thoughts is that clay minerals had a fundamental part to play in the walls of first cells.  We're talking about how life was created by these processes.  Close your eyes and avert your gaze from these fine details and deny them all you want, but in doing so, you disrespect your God and the amazing processes of the natural world.

As a theist, do you think we're meant to open our eyes or avert our gaze from such natural processes?


Quote:

Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Heed the words of Cardinal Baronius.

muso wrote on Oct 28^th, 2013 at 9:58pm:

Yadda wrote on Oct 27th, 2013 at 8:50am: muso, I do not know how God created life, nor how God created this 'reality'. When i meditate upon those questions, i realise what a puny 'thing' i am. I am in awe of God. I do not have any understanding of my own being/existence. Maybe you should try it.  To me, it is hypocrisy of the highest order on the part of the Intelligent Design brigade to presume that they know the means and methodology of creation. We can learn a great deal from observation - from just opening our eyes. The fine detail of existence and of life are pretty awe-inspiring. You can call it the processes and the circumstances of how life came about or regard it as the processes of God if you prefer. How did the first cells come about? One of the current thoughts is that clay minerals had a fundamental part to play in the walls of first cells.  We're talking about how life was created by these processes.  Close your eyes and avert your gaze from these fine details and deny them all you want, but in doing so, you disrespect your God and the amazing processes of the natural world. As a theist, do you think we're meant to open our eyes or avert our gaze from such natural processes? Quote: Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Heed the words of Cardinal Baronius.

Why ?

Do you think that Cardinal Baronius had a better 'vantage point' than yourself ?
[i.e. 'the path',  is YOUR path muso. what do YOU see ? ]


muso,

What we believe [at this point in time] informs our choices [and therefore our path forward, from this point in time].

And in turn, our path will determine what we perceive, from our current vantage point [and, what we will come to believe].

No ?





+++


"We can learn a great deal from observation - from just opening our eyes. The fine detail of existence and of life are pretty awe-inspiring.

You can call it the processes and the circumstances of how life came about or regard it as the processes of God if you prefer."


yadda....
this expressed concept, defining barbarism
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1325206797/10#10

Quote:

All knowledge must be based in, must come from, experience. All knowledge, that is worthy of that name, should be a knowledge which is based in experience. I do not live your life. In the darkness, i can see the light. And in this body, i see only a prison. The light, the light,   .....i seek the light.

+++


"As a theist, do you think we're meant to open our eyes or avert our gaze from such natural processes? "


I am afraid that i may offend you, muso, if i really stated what i believe.

But here is a version;

Magicians create illusions, by diverting our attention.    No ?

Do you believe what you see ?    I do [believe what i see in this world].     And i know that i am 'meant' to [....believe what i see].      And i believe that what i believe, is an illusion.

So where does that leave me ?

Am i confused ?

No.

Do you believe that i am confused, muso ?

Or am i just 'mistaken' ?







"The Bible teaches us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go."
Cardinal Baronius


John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:...
Jesus Christ


The Bible teaches us how to go to heaven how we may approach a holy God.
Yadda


Men respect other men.

CORRECTION;
Men respect other men, at the cost of what is true.       i.e. The world corrupts all of us. [That is its purpose!] And we corrupt each other.    [I do not believe, that we will discover, what we are meant to discover, by focusing upon by looking for truth in this world.       e.g. By seeking truth, in/through human wisdom/'science' ]

But continue on, with your fascination of this natural world and universe, if you must muso.

Coz it is 100% real!!!!          ;)         Honest!           ;D

"The fine detail of existence and of life are pretty awe-inspiring."








muso,

Why is it so important for you to focus so much your attention upon 'the amazing processes of the natural world' ?

i.e.
Why have you become so fascinated by the illusion ?



And between the two of us, who is the one disrespecting God more ?


muso wrote on Oct 26^th, 2013 at 9:59am:

....Is it not extremely arrogant to suppose that God constructed the first man in an instant like some magic show?  Isn't that a dangerous assumption?

Yadda wrote on Oct 28^th, 2013 at 11:45pm:

But continue on, with your fascination of this natural world and universe, if you must muso.

So, what of my own 'fascination' ?

What am i fascinated by ?




By, how easily just a few poor choices, can cause confusion in the human psyche.

And i am fascinated by how that initial confusion, of the human psyche itself, will continue to deleteriously influence our choices, subsequently.i




Psalms 23:3
He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.


Isaiah 65:14
Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

You have a non Biblical conception of the Universe then.

"It's all an illusion"

Does it say in Genesis that God created the Earth as an illusion?

muso wrote on Nov 1^st, 2013 at 9:13am:

You have a non Biblical conception of the Universe then. "It's all an illusion" Does it say in Genesis that God created the Earth as an illusion?

No it doesn't.

But the Bible does inform us, that creation, 'life the universe and everything', is a temporary and impermanent and deceptive 'reality'.




Jeremiah 31:37
Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

How big is the universe, does mankind know, muso ?

That was a bold declaration of 'Jeremiah', made about 2,600 years ago.

In that 2,600 years ago Jeremiah could not know how knowledgeable mankind would become in this present age.

Yet the bible has not yet been invalidated, by that particular declaration by Jeremiah.

The earth has no foundations, muso, it hangs in space.


Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.




Is our experience of this [created] Earth an illusion?

There is a lot we do not know, even about our own selves, let alone about the 'universe' which surrounds us!

Isaiah 64:4
For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.i
THE ILLUSION;
The average modern man believes that in his experience, in his life, he [mostly] knows and understands what is real, and what is not real.

And man believes that his collective, derived [i.e. learned] 'cultural' perceptions of what is 'obvious' and what is real are certain, as certain as the sun rising above the eastern horizon tomorrow morning.

'Seeing [with our own eyes], is believing'! [....and seeing with our own eyes, can confirm what we 'know' to be true]


THE REALITY;
Our human perception is a [self reinforcing] 'knowledge loop' of progressive learned 'judgement'.

Every skerrick of our human perception is [has been] 'informed', throughout our lives, BY THE INTERACTION OF OUR PSYCHE WITH THIS PHYSICAL WORLD.

But every skerrick of our human perception, does not inform or enhance [our] innate human 'wisdom'.

It is the other way around; Every skerrick of our human perception has been 'informed', by our interaction [from childhood] with this deceptive 'reality'.

Human perception, is unreliable - but where we have that freedom, we always defer to it.

If you are a human being, [as real as your life may seem] you are imagining this 'reality'.

And, your 'knowledge' of this 'reality' is [has been] 'informed' by your experience [and by your perception] of this 'reality' - and by nothing else!






Our collective waking human perception of the reality which we collectively experience is [mostly] reliable.
Are you sure ?
Load the page, move your mouse.
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap121007.html







+++



Genesis 47:8
And Pharaoh said unto Jacob, How old art thou?
9  And Jacob said unto Pharaoh, The days of the years of my pilgrimage are an hundred and thirty years: few and evil have the days of the years of my life been, and have not attained unto the days of the years of the life of my fathers in the days of their pilgrimage.


Psalms 119:19
I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.


Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9  By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10  For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.





Where is the 'promised land' ?

Ezekiel 20:38
And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Yadda wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2013 at 1:23pm:

Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. How big is the universe, does mankind know, muso ?

Quote:

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 1:7 And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Divided the waters eh? So when it rains, the rain comes from heaven through holes in the firmament?

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