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Message started by # on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:26pm

Title: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:26pm
Arctic summer temperatures at warmest level for 120,000 years

By Andrew Freedman on 1 November 2013

Average summer temperatures in the Eastern Canadian Arctic during the past 100 years are hotter than they have been in at least 44,000 years, and possibly as long as 120,000 years, according to a new study. The study of mosses emerging from beneath receding glaciers on Baffin Island — the world’s fifth-largest island located west of Greenland — confirms that rapid Arctic warming has already put parts of the region in new climatic territory.

Arctic warming is transforming the Far North by melting sea and land ice, speeding spring snowmelt, and acidifying the Arctic Ocean. Arctic warming may even be redirecting the jet stream in the northern midlatitudes, making some types of extreme weather events more likely in the U.S. and Europe.


Departure from average of Arctic surface temperatures during the first decade of the 21st century, as compared to the 1971-2000 average. The map illustrates that no part of the Arctic experienced cooler-than-average conditions during this period. Credit: NOAA


On Baffin Island, glaciers have been receding approximately 6.5 to 10 feet per year, and they are likely to be gone entirely within the next few centuries if current trends continue, said lead author Gifford Miller of the University of Colorado at Boulder.

The new research, published in the journal Geophysical Research Letters, is the first to present physical evidence that indicates the warming in the Eastern Canadian Arctic exceeds the peak warmth during the Holocene epoch, which began after the last Ice Age ended about 11,700 years ago.

That’s significant because it means that manmade emissions of greenhouse gases have pushed the climate in this part of the world beyond the previous, naturally driven warm period, when incoming solar energy during the Northern Hemisphere summer was about 9 percent greater than it is today.

Miller said he and his colleagues were “shocked” by their findings. They knew the climate of Baffin Island was warming, and that it was warm during a previous period of the Holocene, but, Miller said, “in our minds it was unlikely that the contemporary warmth had exceeded the previous warm period.

“Our data pretty clearly demonstrates that the observed warming now exceeds any plausible explanation by natural variability,” Miller said in an interview. “There is no other explanation that anybody has put forward outside of greenhouse gas emissions that can possibly meet what we’ve observed.”

The valuable insight into the Arctic climate came from an unlikely source — clumps of long-dead and concealed moss that is now emerging from retreating glaciers, after having been killed and entombed under the ice when it first formed.

Miller and his colleagues used radiocarbon dating techniques to gain insight into two key indicators of climate history. First, the moss indicated when, after earlier ice-free periods, the snowline dropped below the observation site and remained there, killing the plants. In other words, the moss showed when it first got cold.


Gifford Miller collects long-dead tundra plants exposed by melting of an Arctic ice cap on Baffin Island, Canada. Credit: Gifford Miller


Second, the dated samples informed researchers as to when a given site was last ice-free, which was also the last time when summer temperatures at the same site would have been as high or higher than when the plants were last alive, Miller said.

The scientists gathered their samples over three field seasons between 2005-2010, ultimately dating 145 of the samples. The scientists found that at four small summit ice caps, rooted vegetation exposed by the shrinking ice cover pre-dated the Holocene period, dating back all the way to at least 44,000 years ago, close to the 50,000-year limit of when radiocarbon dating techniques are considered reliable.

Because of the uncertainties in radiocarbon dating techniques, as well as information gleaned from climate records from nearby Greenland, the study found that the last time summer temperatures “were plausibly as warm as present” is about 120,000 years ago.

“We never even in our wild imaginations thought we’d be getting dates that were at the limits of radiocarbon” dating techniques, Miller said. “It challenges our whole paradigm.”

[continued ...]

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:27pm
[... continued]

The study also found that summer temperatures in the Canadian Arctic cooled by about 5°F between 5,000 years ago and 100 years ago. That cooling was likely driven by small changes in Earth’s orbit, and it was greater than estimates from the updated computer models used for the most recent U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report, Miller said. This may indicate that the models are also underestimating the amount of warming that will take place in the Arctic in response to manmade greenhouse gas emissions, Miller said, because the Arctic climate system contains feedbacks that can accelerate warming and cooling, a phenomenon known as “Arctic amplification.”

Rapid Arctic climate change has resulted in a steep decline in Arctic sea ice cover, with 2012 setting the record for the lowest ice extent since satellite observations began in 1979. The plunge in sea ice is helping to boost ocean and air temperatures by exposing greater areas of dark, open ocean, which absorbs more incoming solar radiation than the brightly colored ice does.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Innocent bystander on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:28pm

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 11:44am
It's a real shame on you hatch that you come on here with one alarmist paper claiming doom and gloom to prove the alarmist cause right and trying to deceive the unsuspecting reader that might come on this forum once or twice to get some idea of the anthropogenic global warming situation.

It just proves to me how dishonest this environmental movement that is trying to sweep the world really is.

If you were indeed a sceptic you might have posted that countless papers before this have also been produced that say different.

That's how honest the anthropogenic global warming religion really is.

And that's why the sooner the general public are awake to these dishonest attempts to prove AGW is real the better of we'll all be.

Shame on you and your alarmists ways....!!!!




Quote:
Abstract
We therefore conclude that for a priod in the Early Holocene, probably for a millenium or more, the Arctic Ocean was free of sea ice at least for shorter periods in the summer. This may serve as an analogue to the predicted “greenhouse situation” expected to appear within our century.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2007AGUFMPP11A0203F

abstract...Arctic sea ice cover was strongly reduced during most of the early Holocene and there appear to have been periods of ice free summers in the central Arctic Ocean. This has important consequences for our understanding of the recent trend of declining sea ice, and calls for further research on causal links between Arctic climate and sea ice.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379110003185

Abstract.....Calcareous nannofossils from approximately the past 7000 yr of the Holocene and from oxygen isotope stage 5 are present at 39 analyzed sites in the central Arctic Ocean. This indicates partly ice-free conditions during at least some summers. The depth of Holocene sediments in the Nansen basin is about 20 cm, or more where influenced by turbidites.

http://geology.geoscienceworld.org/content/21/3/227.abstract

Abstract..........Nevertheless, episodes of considerably reduced sea ice or even seasonally ice-free conditions occurred during warmer periods linked to orbital variations. The last low-ice event related to orbital forcing (high insolation) was in the early Holocene,…

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.quascirev.2010.02.010

http://faculty.eas.ualberta.ca/wolfe/eprints/Frechette_Palaeo3_2006.pdf

http://faculty.eas.ualberta.ca/wolfe/eprints/Frechette_Palaeo3_2006.pdf

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379103002956

http://climatesanity.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/dont-panic-the-arctic-has-survived-warmer-temperatures-in-the-past/

http://www.geochronometria.pl/pdf/geo_32/Geo32_02.pdf

http://www.amjbot.org/content/97/9/1579.full

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/10/24/claim-last-100-years-may-be-warmest-in-120000-years-in-the-arctic-but-not-so-fast/


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by ImSpartacus2 on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:15pm

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 11:44am:
It's a real shame on you hatch that you come on here with one alarmist paper claiming doom and gloom to prove the alarmist cause right and trying to deceive the unsuspecting reader that might come on this forum once or twice to get some idea of the anthropogenic global warming situation.

It just proves to me how dishonest this environmental movement that is trying to sweep the world really is.

If you were indeed a sceptic you might have posted that countless papers before this have also been produced that say different.

That's how honest the anthropogenic global warming religion really is.

And that's why the sooner the general public are awake to these dishonest attempts to prove AGW is real the better of we'll all be.

Shame on you and you alarmists ways....!!!!

So says the sock puppet for the fossil fuel industry

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 11:44am:
It's a real shame on you hatch that you come on here with one alarmist paper claiming doom and gloom to prove the alarmist cause right and trying to deceive the unsuspecting reader that might come on this forum once or twice to get some idea of the anthropogenic global warming situation.


Yes, you're unpsetting Ajax's religious sensibilities. Please desist from these factual reports. All hail Lord Monckton. (sorry - I mean "You know who")

Er Ajax - aren't you conflating sea ice with temperature? Aren't you forgetting about equilibrium?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:30pm

muso wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 11:44am:
It's a real shame on you hatch that you come on here with one alarmist paper claiming doom and gloom to prove the alarmist cause right and trying to deceive the unsuspecting reader that might come on this forum once or twice to get some idea of the anthropogenic global warming situation.


Yes, you're unpsetting Ajax's religious sensibilities. Please desist from these factual reports. All hail Lord Monckton. (sorry - I mean "You know who")

Er Ajax - aren't you conflating sea ice with temperature? Aren't you forgetting about equilibrium?


Ha as usual you have no defence and just mince words....!!!!

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:57pm

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:30pm:

muso wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 11:44am:
It's a real shame on you hatch that you come on here with one alarmist paper claiming doom and gloom to prove the alarmist cause right and trying to deceive the unsuspecting reader that might come on this forum once or twice to get some idea of the anthropogenic global warming situation.


Yes, you're unpsetting Ajax's religious sensibilities. Please desist from these factual reports. All hail Lord Monckton. (sorry - I mean "You know who")

Er Ajax - aren't you conflating sea ice with temperature? Aren't you forgetting about equilibrium?


Ha as usual you have no defence and just mince words....!!!!
No, Ajax, muso raised cogent points which you failed to address. You're looking like an ignorant loser.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by ImSpartacus2 on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:08pm

# wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:57pm:

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:30pm:

muso wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 11:44am:
It's a real shame on you hatch that you come on here with one alarmist paper claiming doom and gloom to prove the alarmist cause right and trying to deceive the unsuspecting reader that might come on this forum once or twice to get some idea of the anthropogenic global warming situation.


Yes, you're unpsetting Ajax's religious sensibilities. Please desist from these factual reports. All hail Lord Monckton. (sorry - I mean "You know who")

Er Ajax - aren't you conflating sea ice with temperature? Aren't you forgetting about equilibrium?


Ha as usual you have no defence and just mince words....!!!!
No, Ajax, muso raised cogent points which you failed to address. You're looking like an ignorant loser.
You mean more like a propagandist for the fossil fuel corporate interests, not here to debate the truth or otherwise but to push a political message for his fossil fuel corporate masters. The guy's a worm. 

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:10pm

# wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:57pm:

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:30pm:

muso wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 11:44am:
It's a real shame on you hatch that you come on here with one alarmist paper claiming doom and gloom to prove the alarmist cause right and trying to deceive the unsuspecting reader that might come on this forum once or twice to get some idea of the anthropogenic global warming situation.


Yes, you're unpsetting Ajax's religious sensibilities. Please desist from these factual reports. All hail Lord Monckton. (sorry - I mean "You know who")

Er Ajax - aren't you conflating sea ice with temperature? Aren't you forgetting about equilibrium?


Ha as usual you have no defence and just mince words....!!!!
No, Ajax, muso raised cogent points which you failed to address. You're looking like an ignorant loser.


Care to explain it......!!!

Cause its just babble to me.....????

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Rider on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 4:13pm
Strangely enough (NOT) the OP's study is being met with derision and utter disbelief - more junk science from the grant funded fraudsters and the AGW doomsday religious twats.

Please update yourselves to the current debunking of junk science and associated doomsday nonsense at...

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/11/02/miller-et-al-s-unprecedented-recent-summer-warmth-in-arctic-canada-bad-assumptions-poor-logic-and-contrary-to-other-evidence-of-arctic-temperatures/#more-96700
Conclusions

From the foregoing data and analyses, what is abundantly clear is that the Miller et al. paper is so badly flawed with unwarranted assumptions, poorly thought out assertions, and astonishingly bad logic that their conclusion “temperatures of the past century must have exceeded those of any century in more than 44 ka” cannot be considered valid. How could reputable scientists come to such incorrect conclusions? Perhaps the last sentence in their conclusions section gives us a clue: “anthropogenic emissions of greenhouse gases have now resulted in unprecedented recent summer warmth that is well outside the range of that attributable to natural climate variability.” Even if the conclusions in the paper were correct, they wouldn’t prove anything about CO2 as the cause of climatic warming, so this statement suggests that the real purpose of the paper was to push CO2 at the expense of objective science.


Just off to cash my bonus cheque from the fossil fuel industry, I plan on buying a new SUV with the cash, one that burns lots of petrol and I don't care because I have a Fuel Card provided, so lots of Sunday drives through the city and beaches, out to the national parks to terrorise some dumb animals (green voters that is)  ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by perceptions_now on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 4:53pm

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:10pm:

# wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:57pm:

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:30pm:

muso wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 11:44am:
It's a real shame on you hatch that you come on here with one alarmist paper claiming doom and gloom to prove the alarmist cause right and trying to deceive the unsuspecting reader that might come on this forum once or twice to get some idea of the anthropogenic global warming situation.


Yes, you're unpsetting Ajax's religious sensibilities. Please desist from these factual reports. All hail Lord Monckton. (sorry - I mean "You know who")

Er Ajax - aren't you conflating sea ice with temperature? Aren't you forgetting about equilibrium?


Ha as usual you have no defence and just mince words....!!!!
No, Ajax, muso raised cogent points which you failed to address. You're looking like an ignorant loser.


Care to explain it......!!!

Cause its just babble to me.....????


I can see why MOST THINGS would be just Babble!

It reminds me of Abbotts approach,  when asked about Peak Oil!

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 6:06pm

# wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:57pm:

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:30pm:

muso wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 11:44am:
It's a real shame on you hatch that you come on here with one alarmist paper claiming doom and gloom to prove the alarmist cause right and trying to deceive the unsuspecting reader that might come on this forum once or twice to get some idea of the anthropogenic global warming situation.


Yes, you're unpsetting Ajax's religious sensibilities. Please desist from these factual reports. All hail Lord Monckton. (sorry - I mean "You know who")

Er Ajax - aren't you conflating sea ice with temperature? Aren't you forgetting about equilibrium?


Ha as usual you have no defence and just mince words....!!!!
No, Ajax, muso raised cogent points which you failed to address. You're looking like an ignorant loser.


I am losing count of WHO exactly muso is in this outrageous forum

Incidentally who are you?

Who is Ajax?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 6:28pm

# wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:26pm:
“We never even in our wild imaginations thought we’d be getting dates that were at the limits of radiocarbon” dating techniques, Miller said. “It challenges our whole paradigm.”

[continued ...]



...there'd better be a Milankovitch cycle that can account for this climatic analysis

(there isn't of course)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 6:56pm

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:10pm:

# wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:57pm:

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:30pm:

muso wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 11:44am:
It's a real shame on you hatch that you come on here with one alarmist paper claiming doom and gloom to prove the alarmist cause right and trying to deceive the unsuspecting reader that might come on this forum once or twice to get some idea of the anthropogenic global warming situation.


Yes, you're unpsetting Ajax's religious sensibilities. Please desist from these factual reports. All hail Lord Monckton. (sorry - I mean "You know who")

Er Ajax - aren't you conflating sea ice with temperature? Aren't you forgetting about equilibrium?


Ha as usual you have no defence and just mince words....!!!!
No, Ajax, muso raised cogent points which you failed to address. You're looking like an ignorant loser.


Care to explain it......!!!

Cause its just babble to me.....????

No, Ajax. I'm not about to let you lure me down that rabbit-hole. If you truly don't understand (which I doubt), then you've confirmed the appearance to which I alluded.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Ajax on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:17am

# wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 6:56pm:

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:10pm:

# wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:57pm:

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:30pm:

muso wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:

Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 11:44am:
It's a real shame on you hatch that you come on here with one alarmist paper claiming doom and gloom to prove the alarmist cause right and trying to deceive the unsuspecting reader that might come on this forum once or twice to get some idea of the anthropogenic global warming situation.


Yes, you're unpsetting Ajax's religious sensibilities. Please desist from these factual reports. All hail Lord Monckton. (sorry - I mean "You know who")

Er Ajax - aren't you conflating sea ice with temperature? Aren't you forgetting about equilibrium?


Ha as usual you have no defence and just mince words....!!!!
No, Ajax, muso raised cogent points which you failed to address. You're looking like an ignorant loser.


Care to explain it......!!!

Cause its just babble to me.....????

No, Ajax. I'm not about to let you lure me down that rabbit-hole. If you truly don't understand (which I doubt), then you've confirmed the appearance to which I alluded.


First you have to take another pill.....!!!!!!


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:37am
Ajax,

Reflect on this:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ice-free-arctic-in-pliocene-last-time-co2-levels-above-400ppm


Quote:
Ice-Free Arctic in Pliocene, Last Time CO2 Levels above 400 PPM

Scientists trying to determine how the Earth might change as temperatures rise often look back in time to a period around 3.6 million years ago called the middle Pliocene, when concentrations of carbon dioxide ranged from about 380 to 450 parts per million. (Today they are nearing 400.)

A study published yesterday in the journal Science analyzed the longest land-based sediment core ever taken in the Arctic and found that during this period, from 3.6 million to 2.2 million years ago, the area around the North Pole was much warmer and wetter than it is now.

In the middle Pliocene, summer temperatures in the Arctic were around 60 degrees Fahrenheit, which is about 14 degrees warmer than they are now, the study found.

The sediment core came from the bottom of a deep lake in Russia about 60 miles north of the Arctic Circle, called Lake El'gygytgyn.


Why isn't it ice free today? Well one of the factors is that it's not at equilibrium.

How can I explain this in simple terms that you will understand?


Ice - He dead man walking.


Is it possible to get ice in a cup of boiling water? Yes.  It takes a certain finite time to melt. The ice in the hot water has not yet reached equilibrium.

Now, what we know about the early Holocene is that sea levels rose because of certain discrete events. One of the things that happened during the melt was that a huge lake (Lake Agassiz) burst through the ice and raised sea levels very quickly.

The article in the OP is about "Arctic Summer Temperatures", not sea ice.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Ajax on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:57am

muso wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:37am:
Ajax,

Reflect on this:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ice-free-arctic-in-pliocene-last-time-co2-levels-above-400ppm


Quote:
Ice-Free Arctic in Pliocene, Last Time CO2 Levels above 400 PPM

Scientists trying to determine how the Earth might change as temperatures rise often look back in time to a period around 3.6 million years ago called the middle Pliocene, when concentrations of carbon dioxide ranged from about 380 to 450 parts per million. (Today they are nearing 400.)

A study published yesterday in the journal Science analyzed the longest land-based sediment core ever taken in the Arctic and found that during this period, from 3.6 million to 2.2 million years ago, the area around the North Pole was much warmer and wetter than it is now.

In the middle Pliocene, summer temperatures in the Arctic were around 60 degrees Fahrenheit, which is about 14 degrees warmer than they are now, the study found.

The sediment core came from the bottom of a deep lake in Russia about 60 miles north of the Arctic Circle, called Lake El'gygytgyn.


Why isn't it ice free today? Well one of the factors is that it's not at equilibrium.

How can I explain this in simple terms that you will understand?


Ice - He dead man walking.


Is it possible to get ice in a cup of boiling water? Yes.  It takes a certain finite time to melt. The ice in the hot water has not yet reached equilibrium.

Now, what we know about the early Holocene is that sea levels rose because of certain discrete events. One of the things that happened during the melt was that a huge lake (Lake Agassiz) burst through the ice and raised sea levels very quickly.

The article in the OP is about "Arctic Summer Temperatures", not sea ice.


First of all that was interesting read with interesting findings.

What spoils it is the last sentence where she say that CO2 is causing todays warming.

Her project wasn't about CO2 and its impact today.

So how can she just slip in a comment like that, is she qualified to do so.

She really discredits her self when she has done such great work and then insinuates something else completely unrelated to her work.

Can we have ice in boiling water..???

Yes we can if we are trying to melt a block of ice in a container with a heat source.

Whether the arctic is in equilibrium or not I don't think either side can claim to know 100%.

What is certain though and I think both sides would agree on this is that we are coming out of a mini ice age since about the 1700 to 1800 hundred, I cant remember exactly.

Its only reasonable to expect temperature to rise and sea ice to melt its all part of the natural cycle of the peaks and troughs the Earth experiences.

Add to this our sun being very active over the last century and what we have today is no cause for alarm imo.


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Deathridesahorse on Nov 4th, 2013 at 7:18pm
Lol, i hereby refer to Ajax as METHOD-MAN wooooooooohooooo  :D

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 4th, 2013 at 7:56pm

Ajax wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:57am:
...
What spoils it is the last sentence where she say that CO2 is causing todays warming.

Her project wasn't about CO2 and its impact today.

So how can she just slip in a comment like that, is she qualified to do so.

She really discredits her self when she has done such great work and then insinuates something else completely unrelated to her work.

Can we have ice in boiling water..???

Yes we can if we are trying to melt a block of ice in a container with a heat source.

Whether the arctic is in equilibrium or not I don't think either side can claim to know 100%.

What is certain though and I think both sides would agree on this is that we are coming out of a mini ice age since about the 1700 to 1800 hundred, I cant remember exactly.

Its only reasonable to expect temperature to rise and sea ice to melt its all part of the natural cycle of the peaks and troughs the Earth experiences.

Add to this our sun being very active over the last century and what we have today is no cause for alarm imo.

Ajax, stop trying to sound like you understand what you clearly don't. You're embarrassing yourself.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 4th, 2013 at 8:27pm

Ajax wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:57am:
What spoils it is the last sentence where she say that CO2 is causing todays warming.

Her project wasn't about CO2 and its impact today.

So how can she just slip in a comment like that, is she qualified to do so.


I'm pretty sure that if she's a research scientist, she completed High School (etc) and is therefore qualified to say something so basic.  ::)

You guys are endangered species. All major political parties distance themselves from you.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 4th, 2013 at 8:32pm

Ajax wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:57am:
Its only reasonable to expect temperature to rise and sea ice to melt its all part of the natural cycle of the peaks and troughs the Earth experiences.


It's reasonable to expect that death is quite a natural part of the cycle of life too, but if there are obvious abnormal causes that show that it isn't natural, then the police will get involved with their scientific forensic unit.

Ajax - what you just said amounts to reductionism.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by namnugenot on Nov 7th, 2013 at 10:37pm
So to rewind (so possibly) it's claimed that it could be the warmest temperatures for 120,000 years...possibly on the way down from the actual peak...so not unprecedented. Also melting ice is exposing plants, PLANTS also apparently a lot of human artifacts is some parts of Europe (considerably less than 120K years old)...
In news just in melting ice has so far not uncovered any coal fired power stations or combustion engines...that's a shame...

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 7th, 2013 at 10:53pm

"Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs"





Do you have a picture of that 120,000 year old thermometer?



Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:09am
Hey laughing boy, show me a 1000 year old thermometer for that matter. Denialists love proxy temperature data.  Ask Ajax. He'll tell you all about the Medieval Warming. He uses the words of the Lord (Monckton) and reverentially crosses himself and mutters pious statements like "The Hockey Stick is dead" and "No warming since 1998".

So do you want the Medieval Warming, or do you wnt to pretend that temperature proxies don't exist? You can't have it both ways.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by namnugenot on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:13am
"The past few years have seen many such discoveries in the melting mountains of Norway. In a 2010 interview with Reuters, Piloe noted the uncovering of more than 600 ancient artifacts, including hunting sticks, bows and arrows, and a 3,400-year-old leather shoe."

So not 120,00, not 44,000 and not even 12,000 years ago...but 3,400 as in actual hard evidence of habitation and hunting...because...I don't know...that's where the game was as well as the plants that the animals grazed on.
So the only question that remains are they going to find the other shoe?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by namnugenot on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:20am
[quote author=muso link=1383366382/24#24 date=1383862185]Hey laughing boy, show me a 1000 year old thermometer for that matter. Denialists love proxy temperature data.  Ask Ajax. He'll tell you all about the Medieval Warming. He uses the words of the Lord (Monckton) and reverentially crosses himself and mutters pious statements like "The Hockey Stick is dead" and "No warming since 1998".


As opposed to flawed guesstimations that cherry pick a data set and project it into infinity.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 8th, 2013 at 12:35pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 10:53pm:
"Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs"
...
Do you have a picture of that 120,000 year old thermometer?
If you pay attention in school, you might learn enough so you can read the OP. For the hard words, you might need to ask Teacher for help.


greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 10:53pm:
...

...
If you learn enough, you might even be able to use words, instead of relying on pictures.


# wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 10:30am:
...

greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 8:49pm:
...
What a terrible person I am.
...
You have good reasons to despise yourself.
On this board, I've yet to see a post of yours that doesn't give evidence of that.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 8th, 2013 at 12:38pm

muso wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:09am:
Hey laughing boy, show me a 1000 year old thermometer for that matter. Denialists love proxy temperature data.  Ask Ajax. He'll tell you all about the Medieval Warming. He uses the words of the Lord (Monckton) and reverentially crosses himself and mutters pious statements like "The Hockey Stick is dead" and "No warming since 1998".

So do you want the Medieval Warming, or do you wnt to pretend that temperature proxies don't exist? You can't have it both ways.
As I've said:
# wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 10:30am:
... First and foremost, greggerypeccary is a troll.
...
The post to which you've responded is classic troll: devoid of substance and calculated to provoke. That said, we've both fed the troll's ego by responding.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:03pm

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:13am:
... actual hard evidence ...
The way I read the OP, the evidence was hard. Then it defrosted.

Seriously, to denialists, "hard evidence" is that which supports their beliefs. Evidence which doesn't support the denialist belief system can, in fact must, be disregarded.

Back to the topic: the subject paper was written by qualified researchers and published in Geophysical Research Letters, a reputable journal, following peer review. Metrics of the journal are:-
H Index:         142
SJR:               2.67
Cites per doc: 3.82

So, namnugenot, what are your qualifications?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:05pm

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:20am:
... flawed guesstimations that cherry pick a data set and project it into infinity.
Do you have an example of that (other than from the denialists, of course)?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:13pm

muso wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:09am:
Hey laughing boy, show me a 1000 year old thermometer for that matter. Denialists love proxy temperature data.  Ask Ajax. He'll tell you all about the Medieval Warming. He uses the words of the Lord (Monckton) and reverentially crosses himself and mutters pious statements like "The Hockey Stick is dead" and "No warming since 1998".

So do you want the Medieval Warming, or do you wnt to pretend that temperature proxies don't exist? You can't have it both ways.



Why are you confusing me with "denialists" and Ajax?

Stay focused.  Just for once.

So, this 120,000 year old thermometer of yours ... where is it?

It's not a rectal one, is it?

#, I'm looking at you boy.





Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Rider on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:09pm

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:05pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:20am:
... flawed guesstimations that cherry pick a data set and project it into infinity.
Do you have an example of that (other than from the denialists, of course)?


ummmm, the projections of 98% of climate models for instance...doh...

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by namnugenot on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:23pm

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:03pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:13am:
... actual hard evidence ...
The way I read the OP, the evidence was hard. Then it defrosted.

Seriously, to denialists, "hard evidence" is that which supports their beliefs. Evidence which doesn't support the denialist belief system can, in fact must, be disregarded.

Back to the topic: the subject paper was written by qualified researchers and published in Geophysical Research Letters, a reputable journal, following peer review. Metrics of the journal are:-
H Index:         142
SJR:               2.67
Cites per doc: 3.82

So, namnugenot, what are your qualifications?


Actually before it was frozen it was being used by people living there, then it was frozen over, and then it thawed...it's called climatic variability. Come on now you seem to be very confused...evidence does not include speculation...that's for playing the stock market or investing in property. Most of what he says is in fact wildly speculative.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by namnugenot on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:26pm

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:05pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:20am:
... flawed guesstimations that cherry pick a data set and project it into infinity.
Do you have an example of that (other than from the denialists, of course)?


Absolutely...for the Church of AGW, world climate began in 1950...not even an eyebink in geological time.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by namnugenot on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:29pm

Rider wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:09pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:05pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:20am:
... flawed guesstimations that cherry pick a data set and project it into infinity.
Do you have an example of that (other than from the denialists, of course)?


ummmm, the projections of 98% of climate models for instance...doh...


Not one of which predicted the "pause"...sh!t in equals sh!t out...

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 8th, 2013 at 4:10pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:13pm:

muso wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:09am:
Hey laughing boy, show me a 1000 year old thermometer for that matter. Denialists love proxy temperature data.  Ask Ajax. He'll tell you all about the Medieval Warming. He uses the words of the Lord (Monckton) and reverentially crosses himself and mutters pious statements like "The Hockey Stick is dead" and "No warming since 1998".

So do you want the Medieval Warming, or do you wnt to pretend that temperature proxies don't exist? You can't have it both ways.



Why are you confusing me with "denialists" and Ajax?

Stay focused.  Just for once.

So, this 120,000 year old thermometer of yours ... where is it?

It's not a rectal one, is it?

#, I'm looking at you boy.





Do you want me to explain how proxies work? - how proxy data has been compared with recent instrumental data and showed a good match etc?

Google it.

Here:

http://www.climatedata.info/Proxy/Proxy/icecores.html

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 8th, 2013 at 6:08pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:13pm:

muso wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:09am:
Hey laughing boy, show me a 1000 year old thermometer for that matter. Denialists love proxy temperature data.  Ask Ajax. He'll tell you all about the Medieval Warming. He uses the words of the Lord (Monckton) and reverentially crosses himself and mutters pious statements like "The Hockey Stick is dead" and "No warming since 1998".

So do you want the Medieval Warming, or do you wnt to pretend that temperature proxies don't exist? You can't have it both ways.


Stay focused.


youre not going to say sorry like a parrot again are you Mr Greggy?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Deathridesahorse on Nov 8th, 2013 at 6:46pm

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:29pm:

Rider wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:09pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:05pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:20am:
... flawed guesstimations that cherry pick a data set and project it into infinity.
Do you have an example of that (other than from the denialists, of course)?


ummmm, the projections of 98% of climate models for instance...doh...


Not one of which predicted the "pause"...sh!t in equals sh!t out...

What is non-linearity?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Deathridesahorse on Nov 8th, 2013 at 6:48pm

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:26pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:05pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:20am:
... flawed guesstimations that cherry pick a data set and project it into infinity.
Do you have an example of that (other than from the denialists, of course)?


Absolutely...for the Church of AGW, world climate began in 1950...not even an eyebink in geological time.

INsurance is what insurance does  :-*

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Deathridesahorse on Nov 8th, 2013 at 6:50pm

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:23pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:03pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:13am:
... actual hard evidence ...
The way I read the OP, the evidence was hard. Then it defrosted.

Seriously, to denialists, "hard evidence" is that which supports their beliefs. Evidence which doesn't support the denialist belief system can, in fact must, be disregarded.

Back to the topic: the subject paper was written by qualified researchers and published in Geophysical Research Letters, a reputable journal, following peer review. Metrics of the journal are:-
H Index:         142
SJR:               2.67
Cites per doc: 3.82

So, namnugenot, what are your qualifications?


Actually before it was frozen it was being used by people living there, then it was frozen over, and then it thawed...it's called climatic variability. Come on now you seem to be very confused...evidence does not include speculation...that's for playing the stock market or investing in property. Most of what he says is in fact wildly speculative.

Like what you're saying but with less qualification?  8-)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Deathridesahorse on Nov 8th, 2013 at 6:51pm

Rider wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:09pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:05pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:20am:
... flawed guesstimations that cherry pick a data set and project it into infinity.
Do you have an example of that (other than from the denialists, of course)?


ummmm, the projections of 98% of climate models for instance...doh...

Subsidised jevons paradox says what ?    :-*

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 8th, 2013 at 7:16pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:13pm:
...
Why are you confusing me with "denialists" ...
No confusion. In repeatedly failing the rationality test, you've pretty conclusively proven that you're less than a sceptic. The only question is, how much less?

In considering you a denialist, muso gives you the benefit of the doubt. I reckon you're much less than that.
# wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 10:30am:
...He's given no cause to suppose that he believes the denialist nonsense. I reckon greggerypeccary merely says whatever he hopes will provoke a reaction for his amusement. First and foremost, greggerypeccary is a troll.
...


greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:13pm:
...
So, this 120,000 year old thermometer of yours ... where is it?
Ask your keeper to explain the OP to you.


greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:13pm:
It's not a rectal one, is it?
...
While worrying, your fascination with that part of the anatomy is at least consistent.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 8th, 2013 at 7:19pm

Rider wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:09pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:05pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:20am:
... flawed guesstimations that cherry pick a data set and project it into infinity.
Do you have an example of that (other than from the denialists, of course)?


ummmm, the projections of 98% of climate models for instance...doh...

An assertion which you were not able to substantiate. Care to try again?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 8th, 2013 at 7:21pm

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:23pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:03pm:
...
So, namnugenot, what are your qualifications?


Actually ...
None, then.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 8th, 2013 at 7:22pm

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:26pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:05pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:20am:
... flawed guesstimations that cherry pick a data set and project it into infinity.
Do you have an example of that (other than from the denialists, of course)?


... ...for the Church of AGW, world climate began in 1950... ....
Yet another assertion that you can't substantiate.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 8th, 2013 at 7:24pm

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:29pm:

Rider wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:09pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:05pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:20am:
... flawed guesstimations that cherry pick a data set and project it into infinity.
Do you have an example of that (other than from the denialists, of course)?


ummmm, the projections of 98% of climate models for instance...doh...


Not one of which predicted the "pause"...
Rider couldn't substantiate his assertion. Can you substantiate yours?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 8th, 2013 at 7:30pm

muso wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 4:10pm:
Do you want me to explain how proxies work?



"work"?

Good try    ;)



Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 8th, 2013 at 7:33pm

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:26pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:05pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:20am:
... flawed guesstimations that cherry pick a data set and project it into infinity.
Do you have an example of that (other than from the denialists, of course)?


Absolutely...for the Church of AGW, world climate began in 1950...not even an eyeblink in geological time.



They just don't seem to understand how insignificant 100 or 200 years is when it comes to climate.

Naive, narrow-minded, ignorant fools    ::)




Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:04pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 7:33pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:26pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:05pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:20am:
... flawed guesstimations that cherry pick a data set and project it into infinity.
Do you have an example of that (other than from the denialists, of course)?


Absolutely...for the Church of AGW, world climate began in 1950...not even an eyeblink in geological time.



They just don't seem to understand how insignificant 100 or 200 years is when it comes to climate.

Naive, narrow-minded, ignorant fools    ::)


Naive - It's a bit like saying "Dying is natural. People die all the time. " regardless of the circumstances.

It's also like ignoring the obvious - the fact that the last time CO2 levels were this high, the Arctic was ice free.

- but no, you continue to deconstruct. Proxies are totally invalid because they are not thermometers. The fact that they agree closely with instrumental values and that they are based on absolute physics, is irrelevant for you.

Why? - just because you said so, and because denailists (I didn't say you were one) say so, and because the Lord (Monckton) is always right.


Monckton's coat of arms is a gay version of the House of Lords coat of arms. (left) He wanted to cure aids by putting all gays on an island. Perhaps he wanted to visit it.

These are the cranks that you're giving the benefit of the doubt to.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:10pm

muso wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:04pm:
Monckton's coat of arms is a gay version of the House of Lords coat of arms. (left) He wanted to cure aids by putting all gays on an island. Perhaps he wanted to visit it.

These are the cranks that you're giving the benefit of the doubt to.



I have never quoted or mentioned Monckton ... ever!

Naive, ignorant, narrow minded, and now ... misleading.

Just stick to the (reputable) science.



Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:27pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:10pm:

muso wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:04pm:
Monckton's coat of arms is a gay version of the House of Lords coat of arms. (left) He wanted to cure aids by putting all gays on an island. Perhaps he wanted to visit it.

These are the cranks that you're giving the benefit of the doubt to.



I have never quoted or mentioned Monckton ... ever!

Naive, ignorant, narrow minded, and now ... misleading.

Just stick to the (reputable) science.


Thou dost protest too much, methinks. 

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:33pm

muso wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:27pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:10pm:

muso wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:04pm:
Monckton's coat of arms is a gay version of the House of Lords coat of arms. (left) He wanted to cure aids by putting all gays on an island. Perhaps he wanted to visit it.

These are the cranks that you're giving the benefit of the doubt to.



I have never quoted or mentioned Monckton ... ever!

Naive, ignorant, narrow minded, and now ... misleading.

Just stick to the (reputable) science.


Thou dost protest too much, methinks. 



Prove me wrong then.

Find a post where I quote or mention Monckton (apart from the last two, of course).





Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:55pm
Proof is for mathematics.  I can't prove anything that is happening inside your head.

I think I'm getting you worked up there. So any time you mention "The church of AGW" or "Al Gore", I'll quote the "Dark Lord"

My strawmen are better than yours.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:57pm

muso wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:55pm:
Proof is for mathematics.  I can't prove anything that is happening inside your head.

I think I'm getting you worked up there.



No.  I'm chilled to the max.

Let me know when you find a post with me mentioning Monckton, OK?



Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Rider on Nov 8th, 2013 at 9:01pm

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 7:24pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:29pm:

Rider wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:09pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:05pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:20am:
... flawed guesstimations that cherry pick a data set and project it into infinity.
Do you have an example of that (other than from the denialists, of course)?


ummmm, the projections of 98% of climate models for instance...doh...


Not one of which predicted the "pause"...
Rider couldn't substantiate his assertion. Can you substantiate yours?


No you old fool. I said No I wouldn't. Not No I couldn't. Now take your Alzheimer's pills and stop dribbling.

While you are at it you can stick your substantiate up your assertiate. Too busy and not interested in your twisted moronic trivial circular arguments of bullsh1t.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 8th, 2013 at 9:03pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:57pm:

muso wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:55pm:
Proof is for mathematics.  I can't prove anything that is happening inside your head.

I think I'm getting you worked up there.



No.  I'm chilled to the max.

Let me know when you find a post with me mentioning Monckton, OK?


Boo!


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 8th, 2013 at 9:16pm

muso wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 9:03pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:57pm:

muso wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 8:55pm:
Proof is for mathematics.  I can't prove anything that is happening inside your head.

I think I'm getting you worked up there.



No.  I'm chilled to the max.

Let me know when you find a post with me mentioning Monckton, OK?


Boo!



He is a lord and has a mathematics degree.

NOBODY IN THE UNIVERSE CAN DENOUNCE ANYTHING THIS LORD UTTERS IN PUBLIC.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by namnugenot on Nov 8th, 2013 at 9:47pm

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 7:21pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:23pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:03pm:
...
So, namnugenot, what are your qualifications?


Actually ...
None, then.


I don't know you but I'm pretty confident I'm more qualified than you. That in any case is irrelevant seeing as what your putting up is insubstantial, devoid of actual scientific content (unless fortune telling counts as scientific methodology now) and basically a bucket of horsesh!t.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 9th, 2013 at 10:49am

Rider wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 9:01pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 7:24pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:29pm:

Rider wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:09pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:05pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:20am:
... flawed guesstimations that cherry pick a data set and project it into infinity.
Do you have an example of that (other than from the denialists, of course)?


ummmm, the projections of 98% of climate models for instance...doh...


Not one of which predicted the "pause"...
Rider couldn't substantiate his assertion. Can you substantiate yours?


No you old fool. I said No I wouldn't. Not No I couldn't. ...
If you really could, why wouldn't you?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 9th, 2013 at 11:02am

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 9:47pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 7:21pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:23pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:03pm:
...
So, namnugenot, what are your qualifications?


Actually ...
None, then.


I don't know you but I'm pretty confident I'm more qualified than you. ...
What is the relevance of my qualifications? You're the one claiming to know better than the, evidently qualified, authors of the peer-reviewed paper.

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 9:47pm:
... That in any case is irrelevant seeing as what your putting up ...
Read the O.P. Am I among I the authors of the subject paper? Did I contribute in any way to the study?

Again; what are your qualifications, that you claim to know better than the authors of the study?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by namnugenot on Nov 9th, 2013 at 12:03pm

# wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 11:02am:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 9:47pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 7:21pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:23pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:03pm:
...
So, namnugenot, what are your qualifications?


Actually ...
None, then.


I don't know you but I'm pretty confident I'm more qualified than you. ...
What is the relevance of my qualifications? You're the one claiming to know better than the, evidently qualified, authors of the peer-reviewed paper.

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 9:47pm:
... That in any case is irrelevant seeing as what your putting up ...
Read the O.P. Am I among I the authors of the subject paper? Did I contribute in any way to the study?

Again; what are your qualifications, that you claim to know better than the authors of the study?


I'm just a heretic to you and your tired dogma...I would mock you only I can't be bothered...I just leave that to the 3,400 year old shoe and all the other artifacts recovered that clearly and utterly show that your source is a steaming pile of dog sh!t.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 9th, 2013 at 12:14pm

namnugenot wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 10:37pm:
So to rewind (so possibly) it's claimed that it could be the warmest temperatures for 120,000 years...possibly on the way down from the actual peak...so not unprecedented. Also melting ice is exposing plants, PLANTS also apparently a lot of human artifacts is some parts of Europe (considerably less than 120K years old)...
In news just in melting ice has so far not uncovered any coal fired power stations or combustion engines...that's a shame...


Explain to me why it has to be unprecedented.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 9th, 2013 at 12:18pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 7:33pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:26pm:

# wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 1:05pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 11:20am:
... flawed guesstimations that cherry pick a data set and project it into infinity.
Do you have an example of that (other than from the denialists, of course)?


Absolutely...for the Church of AGW, world climate began in 1950...not even an eyeblink in geological time.



They just don't seem to understand how insignificant 100 or 200 years is when it comes to climate.


that's correct Mr Greggy, good old Milankovitch showed that the major climatic changes occur over thousands of years rather than centuries

But as we all know the Milankovitch cycles are NATURALLY periodic.

We are talking about a sudden HUMAN input into the earths systems.

The undeniable AGW scientific fact, deals with perturbations to the climate over very short periods of time compared to the Milankovitch time scales

Even when you make a correct statement in your posts, which is a rare event, that statement ends up supporting the scientific AGW fact.

thanks for that Greggy - I owe you one you filthy sheet of decrystalised wombat urine



Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:06pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 7:33pm:
...
Naive, narrow-minded, ignorant fools ...
Says one to whom the description would unquestionably apply, if he actually believed the nonsense he spouts.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:08pm

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 12:03pm:
...
I'm just a heretic to you ...
No, just supremely ignorant.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:13pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 9:16pm:
...
He is a lord and has a mathematics degree.
...
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Christopher_Monckton
Quote:
His critics, including The Guardian writer George Monbiot, point out that Monckton has only a "degree in classics and a diploma in journalism and...no further qualifications."


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by namnugenot on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:25pm

muso wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 12:14pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 10:37pm:
So to rewind (so possibly) it's claimed that it could be the warmest temperatures for 120,000 years...possibly on the way down from the actual peak...so not unprecedented. Also melting ice is exposing plants, PLANTS also apparently a lot of human artifacts is some parts of Europe (considerably less than 120K years old)...
In news just in melting ice has so far not uncovered any coal fired power stations or combustion engines...that's a shame...


Explain to me why it has to be unprecedented.


You first. You're the ones always banging on about "unprecedented"...so you accept it is not? You might also accept that hunting and other human artifacts recovered suggest prolonged ice free status for those areas sufficient to promote plant populations sufficient to support grazing by animal populations that would in turn provide reason for human populations to be there hunting them in the first place...and by the numbers of artifacts being recovered, not insignificant numbers.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:33pm

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:25pm:

muso wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 12:14pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 10:37pm:
So to rewind (so possibly) it's claimed that it could be the warmest temperatures for 120,000 years...possibly on the way down from the actual peak...so not unprecedented. Also melting ice is exposing plants, PLANTS also apparently a lot of human artifacts is some parts of Europe (considerably less than 120K years old)...
In news just in melting ice has so far not uncovered any coal fired power stations or combustion engines...that's a shame...


Explain to me why it has to be unprecedented.


You first. You're the ones always banging on about "unprecedented"...so you accept it is not? You might also accept that hunting and other human artifacts recovered suggest prolonged ice free status for those areas sufficient to promote plant populations sufficient to support grazing by animal populations that would in turn provide reason for human populations to be there hunting them in the first place...and by the numbers of artifacts being recovered, not insignificant numbers.


Yes and when the last MAJOR ice age occurred the average temperature was about 5 degC lower than what it is today (ie pre industrial Non AGW temperatures)

During that ice age period, the 5 degC drop in average global temperature caused an ice sheet to cover most of the land mass where USA currently resides.

So what do you think will happen if the average global temperature  is INCREASED by 5 degC?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by namnugenot on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:40pm

# wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:08pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 12:03pm:
...
I'm just a heretic to you ...
No, just supremely ignorant.


Says the buffoon without  2 brain cells to rub together...

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:46pm

# wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:13pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 9:16pm:
...
He is a lord and has a mathematics degree.
...
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Christopher_Monckton
Quote:
His critics, including The Guardian writer George Monbiot, point out that Monckton has only a "degree in classics and a diploma in journalism and...no further qualifications."


...better put another fraudulent claim on Monckton's list....

the Lord has often claimed in his public speaking tours that he studied mathematics in detail and ended up with a qualification in Physics

Monckton also claims to be an official reviewer for the IPCC reports - a claim that has been refuted by the IPCC itself.

The British parliament has also asked him to STOP referring to himself in public as a member of the House of Lords - he is not a Lord of the house

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:53pm

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:40pm:

# wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:08pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 12:03pm:
...
I'm just a heretic to you ...
No, just supremely ignorant.


Says the buffoon without  2 brain cells to rub together...

Now, now. I heed the best, you put your faith in the rest.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by namnugenot on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:56pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:33pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:25pm:

muso wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 12:14pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 10:37pm:
So to rewind (so possibly) it's claimed that it could be the warmest temperatures for 120,000 years...possibly on the way down from the actual peak...so not unprecedented. Also melting ice is exposing plants, PLANTS also apparently a lot of human artifacts is some parts of Europe (considerably less than 120K years old)...
In news just in melting ice has so far not uncovered any coal fired power stations or combustion engines...that's a shame...


Explain to me why it has to be unprecedented.


You first. You're the ones always banging on about "unprecedented"...so you accept it is not? You might also accept that hunting and other human artifacts recovered suggest prolonged ice free status for those areas sufficient to promote plant populations sufficient to support grazing by animal populations that would in turn provide reason for human populations to be there hunting them in the first place...and by the numbers of artifacts being recovered, not insignificant numbers.


Yes and when the last MAJOR ice age occurred the average temperature was about 5 degC lower than what it is today (ie pre industrial Non AGW temperatures)

During that ice age period, the 5 degC drop in average global temperature caused an ice sheet to cover most of the land mass where USA currently resides.

So what do you think will happen if the average global temperature  is INCREASED by 5 degC?


See that's why you're irrelevant. 
I'm not interested in hypothetical ifs, buts or supposes...
I think you'll find in any case that at the last major ice age the temperature was south of 5 degC lower than now/pre-industrialisation and that number is more reflective of the average temperature over the last 400k years.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by namnugenot on Nov 9th, 2013 at 2:05pm

# wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:53pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:40pm:

# wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:08pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 12:03pm:
...
I'm just a heretic to you ...
No, just supremely ignorant.


Says the buffoon without  2 brain cells to rub together...

Now, now. I heed the best, you put your faith in the rest.


Faith is your department.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 9th, 2013 at 2:16pm

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 2:05pm:

# wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:53pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:40pm:

# wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:08pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 12:03pm:
...
I'm just a heretic to you ...
No, just supremely ignorant.


Says the buffoon without  2 brain cells to rub together...

Now, now. I heed the best, you put your faith in the rest.


Faith is your department.

Care to substantiate that assertion?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 9th, 2013 at 2:18pm

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:56pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:33pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:25pm:

muso wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 12:14pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 10:37pm:
So to rewind (so possibly) it's claimed that it could be the warmest temperatures for 120,000 years...possibly on the way down from the actual peak...so not unprecedented. Also melting ice is exposing plants, PLANTS also apparently a lot of human artifacts is some parts of Europe (considerably less than 120K years old)...
In news just in melting ice has so far not uncovered any coal fired power stations or combustion engines...that's a shame...


Explain to me why it has to be unprecedented.


You first. You're the ones always banging on about "unprecedented"...so you accept it is not? You might also accept that hunting and other human artifacts recovered suggest prolonged ice free status for those areas sufficient to promote plant populations sufficient to support grazing by animal populations that would in turn provide reason for human populations to be there hunting them in the first place...and by the numbers of artifacts being recovered, not insignificant numbers.


Yes and when the last MAJOR ice age occurred the average temperature was about 5 degC lower than what it is today (ie pre industrial Non AGW temperatures)

During that ice age period, the 5 degC drop in average global temperature caused an ice sheet to cover most of the land mass where USA currently resides.

So what do you think will happen if the average global temperature  is INCREASED by 5 degC?


See that's why you're irrelevant. 
I'm not interested in hypothetical ifs, buts or supposes...
I think you'll find in any case that at the last major ice age the temperature was south of 5 degC lower than now/pre-industrialisation and that number is more reflective of the average temperature over the last 400k years.


you still make a comment even though you are not interested you filthy rodent freak

you don't seem to be interested in anything at all you deranged flat earthing slab of putrified camel excrement

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 9th, 2013 at 2:52pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 2:18pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:56pm:
... 
I'm not interested ...


you still make a comment even though you are not interested ...
I'm beginning to wonder whether namnugenot is yet another of this board's trolls. Nobody's that queer, surely.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by namnugenot on Nov 9th, 2013 at 3:15pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 2:18pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:56pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:33pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:25pm:

muso wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 12:14pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 10:37pm:
So to rewind (so possibly) it's claimed that it could be the warmest temperatures for 120,000 years...possibly on the way down from the actual peak...so not unprecedented. Also melting ice is exposing plants, PLANTS also apparently a lot of human artifacts is some parts of Europe (considerably less than 120K years old)...
In news just in melting ice has so far not uncovered any coal fired power stations or combustion engines...that's a shame...


Explain to me why it has to be unprecedented.


You first. You're the ones always banging on about "unprecedented"...so you accept it is not? You might also accept that hunting and other human artifacts recovered suggest prolonged ice free status for those areas sufficient to promote plant populations sufficient to support grazing by animal populations that would in turn provide reason for human populations to be there hunting them in the first place...and by the numbers of artifacts being recovered, not insignificant numbers.


Yes and when the last MAJOR ice age occurred the average temperature was about 5 degC lower than what it is today (ie pre industrial Non AGW temperatures)

During that ice age period, the 5 degC drop in average global temperature caused an ice sheet to cover most of the land mass where USA currently resides.

So what do you think will happen if the average global temperature  is INCREASED by 5 degC?


See that's why you're irrelevant. 
I'm not interested in hypothetical ifs, buts or supposes...
I think you'll find in any case that at the last major ice age the temperature was south of 5 degC lower than now/pre-industrialisation and that number is more reflective of the average temperature over the last 400k years.


you still make a comment even though you are not interested you filthy rodent freak

you don't seem to be interested in anything at all you deranged flat earthing slab of putrified camel excrement


I'm not interested in hypothetical ifs, buts or supposes...
See that's all you've got...you can't make your argument so it's on to name calling and abuse...the voice of "reasoned" argument...yawn.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 9th, 2013 at 3:25pm

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 3:15pm:
... you can't make your argument so it's on to name calling and abuse ...


namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:40pm:
... buffoon without  2 brain cells ...


::)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 9th, 2013 at 5:12pm

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 3:15pm:
I'm not interested in hypothetical ifs, buts or supposes...
See that's all you've got...you can't make your argument so it's on to name calling and abuse...the voice of "reasoned" argument...yawn.


I have never called anyone names in this forum.

I only use precise medical and psychiatric terminology, so you may need to contact your local psychiatric clinic for further clarification on this point you deranged broth of catalysed wolverine scrotum scum

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by namnugenot on Nov 9th, 2013 at 6:56pm

# wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 3:25pm:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 3:15pm:
... you can't make your argument so it's on to name calling and abuse ...


namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:40pm:
... buffoon without  2 brain cells ...


::)


That was actually a free diagnosis....

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 10th, 2013 at 6:03am

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 6:56pm:
... a free diagnosis....

And your qualifications are ...?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by namnugenot on Nov 10th, 2013 at 9:05am

# wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 6:03am:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 6:56pm:
... a free diagnosis....

And your qualifications are ...?


irrelevant...you have no tertiary qualifications in English yet here you are

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 10th, 2013 at 9:45am

# wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 1:06pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 8th, 2013 at 7:33pm:
...
Naive, narrow-minded, ignorant fools ...
Says one to whom the description would unquestionably apply, if he actually believed the nonsense he spouts.



"I know you are, but what am I?"

Seriously, that's your response?

It just gets funnier and funnier.

::)


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 10th, 2013 at 10:45am

namnugenot wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 9:05am:

# wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 6:03am:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 6:56pm:
... a free diagnosis....

And your qualifications are ...?


irrelevant...you have no tertiary qualifications in English yet here you are

Actually, I passed my English exams. On the evidence of your performance, you failed.

Is it healthy of you to persist with pontificating in your ignorance?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 10th, 2013 at 10:46am

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 9:45am:
...
It just gets funnier and funnier.
...
Not one of your best trolls.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 10th, 2013 at 10:49am

# wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 10:46am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 9:45am:
...
It just gets funnier and funnier.
...
Not one of your best trolls.



Look what I had to work with:

"Says one to whom the description would unquestionably apply ..."

Just try harder.





Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by namnugenot on Nov 10th, 2013 at 1:15pm

# wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 10:45am:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 9:05am:

# wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 6:03am:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 6:56pm:
... a free diagnosis....

And your qualifications are ...?


irrelevant...you have no tertiary qualifications in English yet here you are

Actually, I passed my English exams. On the evidence of your performance, you failed.

Is it healthy of you to persist with pontificating in your ignorance?


Congratulations...good for you...it does get harder in high school though.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 10th, 2013 at 4:02pm

namnugenot wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 1:15pm:

# wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 10:45am:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 9:05am:

# wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 6:03am:

namnugenot wrote on Nov 9th, 2013 at 6:56pm:
... a free diagnosis....

And your qualifications are ...?


irrelevant...you have no tertiary qualifications in English yet here you are

Actually, I passed my English exams. On the evidence of your performance, you failed.

Is it healthy of you to persist with pontificating in your ignorance?


Congratulations...good for you...it does get harder in high school though.

As you might discover, if you're allowed in. Not to worry, for you that exam's many years in the future. Plenty of time for remedial lessons.

University's even more difficult. I doubt you'll need to worry about that, though.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 10th, 2013 at 6:13pm
We're getting close to a flame war. I make allowances for chimp. I don't think anybody in their right mind would be offended by his "insults". At least they are funny.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 10th, 2013 at 9:36pm

muso wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 6:13pm:
We're getting close to a flame war. I make allowances for chimp. I don't think anybody in their right mind would be offended by his "insults". At least they are funny.


...I take great offence at YOU treating me in a different manner to others posters on ozpolitic, you filthy perpetually rolling boulder dung beetle freak clown maggot.


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 11th, 2013 at 8:39am

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 9:36pm:

muso wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 6:13pm:
We're getting close to a flame war. I make allowances for chimp. I don't think anybody in their right mind would be offended by his "insults". At least they are funny.


...I take great offence at YOU treating me in a different manner to others posters on ozpolitic, you filthy perpetually rolling boulder dung beetle freak clown maggot.


Your offense is greater than my offense.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Deathridesahorse on Nov 12th, 2013 at 3:27pm
We're getting close to a flame war, lol

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 12th, 2013 at 7:15pm
Why are Climate Models diverging from reality; when they are apparently accurate hindcasting? Could they have got the "right" result for the "wrong" reasons?

It is interesting that Dana Nuccitelli can work for Big Oil and be a warmist, and that's OK, But anyone who is a so-called denialist, is in the pay of Evil Big Oil.

Then again Big Oil have a history of investing in "green" projects, so "green" projects must be bad.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 12th, 2013 at 7:52pm

lee wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 7:15pm:
Why are Climate Models diverging from reality; ...
Are they?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 12th, 2013 at 8:39pm
I would post the link but am a new member. However you can view the graphs from the Summary for Policy Makers. And also search for  'Changes to the underlying scientific/technical assessment', because the charts vary.

They show the models output spaghetti graph and measurements. The slopes have been adjusted so that real figures appear in  the low end of the error bar.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Soren on Nov 12th, 2013 at 8:52pm

# wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:26pm:
Arctic summer temperatures at warmest level for 120,000 years

By Andrew Freedman on 1 November 2013



Elsewhere in the news, NASA says:


In late September 2013, the ice surrounding Antarctica reached its annual winter maximum and set a new record. Sea ice extended over 19.47 million square kilometers (7.51 million square miles) of the Southern Ocean. The previous record of 19.44 million square kilometers was set in September 2012.
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=82160


Must be some Murdoch press ploy no doubt.


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 12th, 2013 at 9:43pm
Another aspect - google "ar4 spm overwrites science".

In the changes to "Changes to underlying Scientific/Technical Assessment" from  climatechange2013.org and note this from the IPCC-

"Changes to the Underlying Scientific-Technical Assessment to ensure consistency with the approved Summary for Policymakers."

So apparently politics overrides science.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by namnugenot on Nov 12th, 2013 at 10:42pm

lee wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 9:43pm:
Another aspect - google "ar4 spm overwrites science".

In the changes to "Changes to underlying Scientific/Technical Assessment" from  climatechange2013.org and note this from the IPCC-

"Changes to the Underlying Scientific-Technical Assessment to ensure consistency with the approved Summary for Policymakers."

So apparently politics overrides science.


Science...well for AGWers that would be a first. It's like nailing jelly to a wall.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 12th, 2013 at 11:28pm

Soren wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 8:52pm:

# wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:26pm:
Arctic summer temperatures at warmest level for 120,000 years

By Andrew Freedman on 1 November 2013



Elsewhere in the news, NASA says:


In late September 2013, the ice surrounding Antarctica reached its annual winter maximum and set a new record. Sea ice extended over 19.47 million square kilometers (7.51 million square miles) of the Southern Ocean. The previous record of 19.44 million square kilometers was set in September 2012.
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=82160


Must be some Murdoch press ploy no doubt.


what is the volume of the ice?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 13th, 2013 at 6:29pm
Apparently the Alfred Wegener Institute in Germany has announced that Antarctica had the most coverage in 30 years- in terms of extent and volume.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 13th, 2013 at 8:31pm

lee wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 8:39pm:
I would post the link but am a new member. ...
That doesn't stop you posting the url.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 13th, 2013 at 8:34pm

Soren wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 8:52pm:

# wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:26pm:
Arctic summer temperatures at warmest level for 120,000 years

By Andrew Freedman on 1 November 2013



Elsewhere in the news, NASA says:


In late September 2013, the ice surrounding Antarctica reached its annual winter maximum and set a new record. Sea ice extended over 19.47 million square kilometers (7.51 million square miles) of the Southern Ocean. The previous record of 19.44 million square kilometers was set in September 2012....

Do you know what that means? I've been around long enough to realise the hazards of data in the hands of amateurs.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 13th, 2013 at 8:34pm
I have been knocked back twice from postings links.  Don't know the difference between url's and links


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 13th, 2013 at 8:35pm

lee wrote on Nov 13th, 2013 at 6:29pm:
Apparently the Alfred Wegener Institute in Germany has announced that Antarctica had the most coverage in 30 years- in terms of extent and volume.

The significance of which (if true) would be?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 13th, 2013 at 8:37pm

lee wrote on Nov 13th, 2013 at 8:34pm:
I have been knocked back twice from postings url's. Apparently I have to have 100 posts before I may do so. :-?

Argue with the mods.

No, you have to have 100 posts before you can post a clickable link. A url can be no more than text. Just don't try formatting it as a url. That is, paste the text of the address, but don't use the far-left-hand button on the toolbar.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 13th, 2013 at 8:46pm
Chimp_Logic asked about the ice volume above.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 13th, 2013 at 8:48pm

# wrote on Nov 13th, 2013 at 8:34pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 8:52pm:

# wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:26pm:
Arctic summer temperatures at warmest level for 120,000 years

By Andrew Freedman on 1 November 2013



Elsewhere in the news, NASA says:


In late September 2013, the ice surrounding Antarctica reached its annual winter maximum and set a new record. Sea ice extended over 19.47 million square kilometers (7.51 million square miles) of the Southern Ocean. The previous record of 19.44 million square kilometers was set in September 2012....

Do you know what that means? I've been around long enough to realise the hazards of data in the hands of amateurs.


One of the things it means is that the Ice shelf is moving faster into the sea.  The satellite data shows that Antarctica is gaining sea ice but losing land ice at an accelerating rate due to increased ice-shelf melt. This has significant implications for sea level rise. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that any sea ice in September will melt over the Summer months.

Bintanga et al. 2013).

Lee if you have a url link you'd like to post, just give me the Google key words and the title and (one of us) will add it to your post.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 13th, 2013 at 8:51pm
That would be a possible explanation. There would I think be others.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 13th, 2013 at 9:09pm
Thank you for your offer.

If the sea ice extent is larger and IF the volume is larger then it would seem to be more than moving land ice .

The Wegener story is on Wattsupwiththat quoting a Google translation on 24 October. "A new record: the most sea ice in Antarctica in the last 30 years by extent and by volume "

A new record: the most sea ice in Antarctica in the last 30 years by extent and by volume

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 13th, 2013 at 9:16pm
The other factor at play in increased precipitation. The paper I linked to shows decreasing Ice Sheet volume over time. That is not incompatible with an increase in total volume (Sea ice  plus ice shelf) at the end of winter (September 2013). It's a spot value as opposed to a trend.

It would be interesting to compare trends of minimum ice volume at the end of summer over time.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 13th, 2013 at 9:19pm

lee wrote on Nov 13th, 2013 at 8:51pm:
That would be a possible explanation. There would I think be others.


If the satellite data shows decreasing shelf ice over time, what other explanation would you propose?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 13th, 2013 at 9:58pm
It seems the East Antarctic Ice Sheet is growing and the West Antarctic Ice Sheet is reducing.

Then again the study by Zwally et al "Mass Gains of the Antarctic Ice Sheet Exceed Losses'. the overall picture seems to be one of gain.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 14th, 2013 at 7:32pm

lee wrote on Nov 13th, 2013 at 9:09pm:
...
The Wegener story is on Wattsupwiththat ...
There's your problem.


Quote:
Anthony Watts

Credentials

Anthony Watts studied Electrical Engineering and Meteorology at Purdue University, but has been unwilling to state whether he graduated.

He is a former television meteorologist.

Background

Anthony Watts is best known as the founder and editor of the popular Watts Up With That (WUWT), a blog that primarily publishes articles skeptical of climate change. He is also the owner of the weather graphics company ItWorks. He is the founder of Surfacestations.org, a project with the stated purpose of documenting the siting quality of weather stations in the United States. According to documents released in 2012, Watts has received funding from the Heartland Institute.

Watts previously worked as an on-air meteorologist for WLFI-TV in Lafayette, Indiana, and later joined KHSK-TV in 1987. In 2002, Watts left his position as a television weatherman to devote time to his private business, ITWorks. He returned to work part-time at KHSL in 2004, and has also been the chief meteorologist for KPAY-AM (an affiliate of Fox News) since 2002.

Watts admits "I'm not a degreed climate scientist" on his WUWT profile, and his primary credential appears to be an American Meteorological Society Seal of Approval. This does not mean that Watts is "AMS Certified" as some sources have inaccurately claimed. The AMS Seal of Approval is a discontinued credential that does not require a bachelor's or higher degree in atmospheric science or meteorology.

Watts's "About" page mentions neither his Purdue attendance nor whether he graduated. Watts has refused to say whether he graduated, and a number of direct queries to Watts to find out if he graduated from college were rebuffed.
Do you think you can trust Watts' reporting?

What attracted you to that source?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 14th, 2013 at 7:53pm
I guess you can always go to the source. I merely point a way- whether you go that way isn't my problem.

I am a great believer in scientific scepticism. Scientists after all are merely people with foibles and prejudices just like us. They are not infallible.

So it's OK for warmists to be sceptical of the other side- but it should be a bilateral argument.

So if climate sceptics are sceptical and are deniers; I guess that makes sceptical warmists - What?

What you should be doing is attacking the science behind it. The warmist have Michael Mann of Hockey Stick fame. Trenberth of the missing heat fame. There are multiple others. Mann apparently has a self awarded Nobel Prize.

You do note Watts gets "qualified scientists" commenting on his blog site. John Cook of SKS is more umm, choosy, shall we say.

edit: you can always do a Google search for an English version of the press release.:)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 14th, 2013 at 8:21pm

lee wrote on Nov 14th, 2013 at 7:53pm:
... Scientists after all are merely people with foibles and prejudices just like us. They are not infallible.
...
Individually, yes. Collectively?

No individual or group is infallible, but do you consider a group more or less fallible than an individual? Is a larger group more likely to be wrong? Less likely?


lee wrote on Nov 14th, 2013 at 7:53pm:
...
What you should be doing is attacking the science behind it. ...
Given that I'm not qualified, do you think that would be healthy? Who would I fool but myself?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Soren on Nov 14th, 2013 at 8:49pm

muso wrote on Nov 13th, 2013 at 8:48pm:

# wrote on Nov 13th, 2013 at 8:34pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 8:52pm:

# wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:26pm:
Arctic summer temperatures at warmest level for 120,000 years

By Andrew Freedman on 1 November 2013



Elsewhere in the news, NASA says:


In late September 2013, the ice surrounding Antarctica reached its annual winter maximum and set a new record. Sea ice extended over 19.47 million square kilometers (7.51 million square miles) of the Southern Ocean. The previous record of 19.44 million square kilometers was set in September 2012....

Do you know what that means? I've been around long enough to realise the hazards of data in the hands of amateurs.


One of the things it means is that the Ice shelf is moving faster into the sea.  The satellite data shows that Antarctica is gaining sea ice but losing land ice at an accelerating rate due to increased ice-shelf melt. This has significant implications for sea level rise. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that any sea ice in September will melt over the Summer months.

Bintanga et al. 2013).

Lee if you have a url link you'd like to post, just give me the Google key words and the title and (one of us) will add it to your post.


So more ice means global warming. It's the wrong ice. The type that melts in summer.

Coz frozen sea and frozen not-sea makes al;l the difference, and never mind the temperature. The ice shelf is melting because the sea ice is increasing. It gets  cold in winter, then it gets warm in summer.

Got it.  Terrible, isn't is??

All predictions of rising sea levels have come through over the last 20-30 years and this is no different.






Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 14th, 2013 at 9:04pm

Soren wrote on Nov 14th, 2013 at 8:49pm:

muso wrote on Nov 13th, 2013 at 8:48pm:

# wrote on Nov 13th, 2013 at 8:34pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 8:52pm:

# wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:26pm:
Arctic summer temperatures at warmest level for 120,000 years

By Andrew Freedman on 1 November 2013



Elsewhere in the news, NASA says:


In late September 2013, the ice surrounding Antarctica reached its annual winter maximum and set a new record. Sea ice extended over 19.47 million square kilometers (7.51 million square miles) of the Southern Ocean. The previous record of 19.44 million square kilometers was set in September 2012....

Do you know what that means? I've been around long enough to realise the hazards of data in the hands of amateurs.


One of the things it means is that the Ice shelf is moving faster into the sea.  The satellite data shows that Antarctica is gaining sea ice but losing land ice at an accelerating rate due to increased ice-shelf melt. This has significant implications for sea level rise. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that any sea ice in September will melt over the Summer months.

Bintanga et al. 2013).

Lee if you have a url link you'd like to post, just give me the Google key words and the title and (one of us) will add it to your post.


So more ice means global warming. It's the wrong ice. The type that melts in summer.

Coz frozen sea and frozen not-sea makes al;l the difference, and never mind the temperature. The ice shelf is melting because the sea ice is increasing. It gets  cold in winter, then it gets warm in summer.

Got it.  Terrible, isn't is??

All predictions of rising sea levels have come through over the last 20-30 years and this is no different.


What is the change in the ice volume/mass?



Warthog-2_001.jpg (189 KB | 27 )

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 14th, 2013 at 9:10pm
Where's DeathridesaHorse? At least he made some sense.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Soren on Nov 14th, 2013 at 9:13pm

muso wrote on Nov 14th, 2013 at 9:10pm:
Where's DeathridesaHorse? At least he made some sense.

:D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;Di

8-)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Innocent bystander on Nov 14th, 2013 at 9:42pm

Soren wrote on Nov 14th, 2013 at 9:13pm:

muso wrote on Nov 14th, 2013 at 9:10pm:
Where's DeathridesaHorse? At least he made some sense.
:D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D
8-)


Is that the IPCC"s end of year staff photo?  ;Di

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 14th, 2013 at 10:30pm
Put it this way, you may be surprised, but he has more of a grasp of basic physics (in his more lucid moments) than you do .

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 14th, 2013 at 10:56pm

Soren wrote on Nov 14th, 2013 at 9:13pm:

muso wrote on Nov 14th, 2013 at 9:10pm:
Where's DeathridesaHorse? At least he made some sense.

:D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;) :) :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;Di

8-)


you have a lot of time on your hands

pity you don't spend your time reading peer reviewed scientific articles

they are far more enlightening than reading the religious text of your mentors Andrew Bolt and Lord Monckton you sorenised strip of contaminated Warthog groin scum.



Warthog-2_002.jpg (189 KB | 23 )

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 14th, 2013 at 11:07pm
"Fukushima 8 news cases of children with thyroid cancer in last two months Now 59 cases"

(very rare to find thyroid cancer in Children - incidence rate is about 0.2 in every 100,000 - ie 2 in every 1,000,000. The concerning aspect of this trend, is that in post Chernobyl meltdown/fallout the thyroid cancers didn't begin emerging until about 4 years after exposure. Now this could be due to the level of exposure in Fukushima being higher, or better medical diagnosis (or both))

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Emma Peel on Nov 14th, 2013 at 11:13pm

muso wrote on Nov 10th, 2013 at 6:13pm:
We're getting close to a flame war. I make allowances for chimp. I don't think anybody in their right mind would be offended by his "insults". At least they are funny.


Agree   :)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Emma Peel on Nov 14th, 2013 at 11:18pm

lee wrote on Nov 12th, 2013 at 9:43pm:
Another aspect - google "ar4 spm overwrites science".

In the changes to "Changes to underlying Scientific/Technical Assessment" from  climatechange2013.org and note this from the IPCC-

"Changes to the Underlying Scientific-Technical Assessment to ensure consistency with the approved Summary for Policymakers."

So apparently politics overrides science.



Ahhh YEP... that is the way it goes generally..!  :)

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.!

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 15th, 2013 at 12:33am
#
I'm a sceptic, with no education past year 10, which was once the norm. I am now an aged pensioner. I also have an enquiring mind.

In any like minded body of individuals a lot of traits will be shared.
If people do not know the science then it is best to be sceptical and do your own thinking. It has been said that scientists are sceptics in that they try to falsify a theory. That is prove it to be false.

I have always had an interest in maths, and this had led to an interest in Climate Models as they are maths based.

There are a number of articles on the independence of climate models and most agree that they are not truly independent. If models are not truly independent, then they must be somewhat clonelike, and one should expect a fairly tight output among them.

Climate models use a number of assumptions or "parameterisations" as part of the calculated output. It is obvious that any assumption unless 100% correct will produce a bias. e.g. a=b/c, if we assume b to be 3, when in reality it is say 2 or 5, we have introduced a bias. It is possible, but unlikely, that 2 biases may be self-cancelling. Obviously the greater the number of introduced biases, the less likely the output will be bias free.

Many of the models will have similar biases, so that, as the studies find, the aggregation of the models does not reduce the level of the biases as much as one would expect.

The one parameterisation that does not seem to get adjusted is Climate Sensitivity, and I have found no calculation on which that is based. If Climate Sensitivity to CO2 is not as much as claimed, and is not adjusted, then the output of the models can only ever be wrong.

It is known as GIGO - Garbage in, Garbage Out.

So i do not trust Climate Models, and seeing as AGW is rooted on the models; I can have no faith in that.


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 15th, 2013 at 6:50am

lee wrote on Nov 14th, 2013 at 7:53pm:
...
You do note Watts gets "qualified scientists" commenting on his blog site. John Cook of SKS is more umm, choosy, shall we say.
...
On the subject of sources, muso's answer to Ajax was pretty good.

The source that has been praised and awarded for advancing knowledge of climate change or the one that says what you want to hear; which is most credible?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 15th, 2013 at 8:01am

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 14th, 2013 at 10:56pm:
they are far more enlightening than reading the religious text of your mentors Andrew Bolt and Lord Monckton ....


When mentioning Lord Monckton (pbuh), it is customary to add pbuh (peace be upon him) in brackets. We must not offend the Denialist zealots.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 15th, 2013 at 8:04am

lee wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 12:33am:
#
I'm a sceptic, with no education past year 10, which was once the norm. I am now an aged pensioner. I also have an enquiring mind.


Good to have you on board. I'm one of the scientists you don't trust, but I haven't done much work in atmospheric physics recently.

I wish I had the total conviction of people like Andrew Bolt, but you can't have everything. I'll settle for integrity instead.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Soren on Nov 15th, 2013 at 8:29am

muso wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 8:04am:
I wish I had the total conviction of people like Andrew Bolt, but you can't have everything. I'll settle for integrity instead.

And add smugness to taste?


Here's a voice I like (and not just because he is Danish):

HOPE for a breakthrough at the international climate change talks in Warsaw next week is evergreen: “Where there is a will, there is a way!” the hosts’ environment minister says. But despite this optimism, there is little global will for an overarching agreement akin to the failed Kyoto protocol.

Yet there is a very different option that’s not even on the agenda: instead of pouring more money into still very inefficient renewables, we could make massive but much cheaper investment in research and development into new energy sources. The world is already spending about $1bn (£622m) a day on renewables – $359bn in 2013. $100bn a year invested worldwide in research & development (R&D) would be hundreds of times more effective, a panel of economists, including three Nobel laureates, found in a Copenhagen Consensus on Climate study. This would increase global R&D 10-fold and cost much, much less -- only 0.2 per cent of global GDP.

Unfortunately, this won’t happen as long as Warsaw, and numerous other climate summits, persist in hoping for a globally-binding agreement on cutting carbon emissions. This was the essence of the Kyoto protocol, agreed in 1997, but which never really mattered. Most of the big CO2 emitters had no limits (China and India), or left (the US), or didn’t keep their promises (Canada). Kyoto was dead even when US Vice President Al Gore signed in 1997, and President Bill Clinton said that “the United States has reached an historic agreement with other nations of the world to take unprecedented action to address global warming.” The US Senate had already rejected the treaty by 95 to 0 votes.

The will has not been there since. After the Durban 2012 talks, and announcements of a legally-binding agreement, India’s environment minister Shrimati Jayanthi Natarajan said that “India cannot agree to a legally binding agreement for emissions reduction at this stage of our development.” Canada withdrew from Kyoto, which Russia and Japan had already refused to extend. Even full implementation of Kyoto would, by the end of the century, have reduced temperatures by an immeasurable 0.004°C, despite costing about $200bn annually.

Only the EU and a few others remain devoted to significant expenses for tiny outcomes: the EU is committed to cutting carbon emissions by 20 per cent below 1990 levels by 2020. This will, on an average of all the energy-economic models, cost $250bn a year. By the end of the century (after a total cost of more than $20 trillion), it will reduce the temperature increase by a tiny 0.05°C.

There will be great headlines from Warsaw about pledges, promises and targets. But remember previous breakthroughs. At the Copenhagen summit in 2009, Japan pledged to cut carbon emissions by 25 per cent by 2020. This was impossible – and now they’re reneging. China, just before that summit, dramatically promised to cut its carbon intensity (the amount of CO2 emitted for each dollar of GDP) over the next ten years to just 40-45 per cent of its level in 2005. Heroic, but International Energy Agency figures show China was already expected to reduce carbon intensity by 40 per cent without new policies: as its economy develops, China will inevitably shift to less carbon-intensive industries.

And remember that, over history, human civilisation has tried to get away from renewables. In 1800, the world got 94 per cent of its energy from renewables, mostly wood and wind. Today it is just 13 per cent. Much of what is classed as renewables means poor people using wood and waste: Africa gets almost 50 per cent of its energy from such sources. But China’s renewable energy dropped from 40 per cent in 1971 to 11 per cent today as it became more prosperous.

Rich countries, meanwhile, install wind turbines and solar panels, which emit less CO2 but remain expensive and intermittent. Spain now spends almost 1 per cent of its GDP on subsidies for renewables – more than on higher education. This is not sustainable, and not something most countries want to emulate. We can’t hope to push through a treaty in Warsaw or anywhere else, forcing people to dramatically move to more costly, less reliable energy sources.

Despite all the summits and the hundreds of billions of dollars in subsidies for inefficient green technologies, CO2 emissions have risen by some 57 per cent since 1990. We need to look at a different approach instead of backing the wrong horse over and over again. The economics show that the smartest long-term solution is to focus on developing green energy. This would push down the costs of future generations of wind, solar and other amazing possibilities.

If green technology could be cheaper than fossil fuels, everyone would switch, not only a token number of well-meaning Westerners. And we would not need to convene yet another climate summit that eventually comes to nothing.

- See more at: http://www.cityam.com/article/1383699070/we-can-cut-carbon-emissions-not-inefficient-renewable-subsidies#sthash.brnwxcdk.dpuf




Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 15th, 2013 at 8:32am
Ah Bjørn (CO2 is good for you) Lomborg. How did I guess?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Soren on Nov 15th, 2013 at 9:06am
Nothing you actually disagree with then.
Just going with the 'vibe', sorry, the consensus.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 15th, 2013 at 9:55am

Soren wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 9:06am:
Nothing you actually disagree with then.
Just going with the 'vibe', sorry, the consensus.


Au contraire. OK, I'll respond properly at some future time. I'm a bit busy at the moment.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 15th, 2013 at 10:27am
Nowhere did I say I don't trust scientists. Either my writing skills are inadequate , your comprehension skills are inadequate, or it is just a misunderstanding.

I don't trust the models. But most scientists would know pretty little about computer programming.

Did you note that bit about scientists being sceptics? Apparently the new scientist is only allowed to be sceptical if he's a warmist.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 15th, 2013 at 7:43pm

lee wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 10:27am:
Nowhere did I say I don't trust scientists. Either my writing skills are inadequate , your comprehension skills are inadequate, or it is just a misunderstanding.

I don't trust the models. .


Models are used to design ships, aircraft, bridges, roads, the space shuttle etc.,

And many of these models are less complex than those employed and devised by Climatologists to predict climate trends. Do you fly much?

Most systems and mechanisms in science and engineering are very complicated and sometimes even obey chaotic laws of motion etc. (they are often non linear, unstable and have no precise analytical solutions - hence the role of numerical methods and high computer power)

Just to give you an example, if you drop a sphere into a container of water, you can theoretical model and characterise the behaviour of the falling sphere. If you change the fluid from water to a thicker fluid with a yield stress, or a visco-elastic fluid, then you cant solve the equations of motion analytically.

You have a choice of numerically solving the equations, or conducting experiments to determine empirical parameters that are important to the behaviour of the falling sphere.

Some of the most sophisticated modelling is carried out in the fields of climate science and weather prediction.

In my opinion, when I look at a model that is either theoretical or numerical in nature, I look at two critical areas. The first is the assumptions made, and the second is the predictive error.

These help you compare models, and if predictions are wayward, you can often see why.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 15th, 2013 at 7:46pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 7:43pm:

lee wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 10:27am:
Nowhere did I say I don't trust scientists. Either my writing skills are inadequate , your comprehension skills are inadequate, or it is just a misunderstanding.

I don't trust the models. .


Models are used to design ships, aircraft, bridges, roads, the space shuttle etc.,




This may come as a huge shock to you, however, the Earth's climate is not a ship, aircraft, bridge, road, or space shuttle.

Try to remain focused.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 15th, 2013 at 7:55pm
A ship is not a road either.  An aircraft is not a bridge, but you can have a bridge on a ship.


Deep.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 15th, 2013 at 7:59pm

muso wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 7:55pm:
A ship is not a road either.  An aircraft is not a bridge, but you can have a bridge on a ship.


Deep.



Two wrongs don't make a right, but two Wrights made an airplane.

Profound.



Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Innocent bystander on Nov 15th, 2013 at 8:01pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 7:43pm:
Models are used to design ships, aircraft, bridges, roads, the space shuttle etc.,



Lucky they didn't get the guys who did the climate models to do those models too, the ships would have sunk, the planes would have crashed, the bridges would have fallen down, the roads would have broken up and the space shuttle would have crashed on take off  ;D

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 15th, 2013 at 8:03pm

Innocent bystander wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 8:01pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 7:43pm:
Models are used to design ships, aircraft, bridges, roads, the space shuttle etc.,



Lucky they didn't get the guys who did the climate models to do those models too, the ships would have sunk, the planes would have crashed, the bridges would have fallen down, the roads would have broken up and the space shuttle would have crashed on take off  ;D



Yes, or ... they may never have been built at all.





Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 15th, 2013 at 8:16pm

Innocent bystander wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 8:01pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 7:43pm:
Models are used to design ships, aircraft, bridges, roads, the space shuttle etc.,



Lucky they didn't get the guys who did the climate models to do those models too, the ships would have sunk, the planes would have crashed, the bridges would have fallen down, the roads would have broken up and the space shuttle would have crashed on take off  ;D


I see,

so you are content with scientists using models to predict behaviour and characteristics in complex systems, as long as they don't use models in the field of Climatology.

Interesting religion you worship

Do you ever read the 5 day weather forecast for the area you live in?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Innocent bystander on Nov 15th, 2013 at 8:19pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 8:16pm:
Do you ever read the 5 day weather forecast for the area you live in?




Yes and its nearly always wrong, funny about that  ;D , but hey I have total faith that the kooky climate cult can predict the weather in a hundred years time

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 15th, 2013 at 8:19pm
The Book of "Innocent Bystander" 34:12

"Thou shalt not engage in scientific and mathematical modelling in the fields of climatology - it is forbidden"

IB's Law - the smelly clown skunk freak of Judea

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Innocent bystander on Nov 15th, 2013 at 8:22pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 8:19pm:
"Thou shalt not engage in scientific and mathematical modelling in the fields of climatology - it is forbidden"




Really?, where did I say that?, model away to your hearts content but when you gets those models absurdly wrong on all counts don't complain when people laugh at them  ;D

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 15th, 2013 at 8:25pm

Innocent bystander wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 8:19pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 8:16pm:
Do you ever read the 5 day weather forecast for the area you live in?




Yes and its nearly always wrong, funny about that 



Exactly.  They can't get tomorrow's weather right, yet AGW alarmists think these "scientists" can predict climate change.

Perhaps this will be of interest to the cult members:





Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 15th, 2013 at 8:58pm
Lateral Torsional Buckling of Long Span Suspension Bridge: Geometrically Nonlinear Analysis Under Wind Load

If you needed to estimate the critical wind load for a suspension bridge, you may need to use these equations



Would you be concerned about the actual numerical values of 142.2 and 0.287 before you decided to drive across a suspension bridge on a windy day?


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 15th, 2013 at 10:04pm
Now if you can just point me to the calculation on Climate Sensitivity to CO2.

Climate is a chaotic system.

I note that in AR4 SRES A2 projection was between 2.0 and 5.4
In AR5 SRES A2 is between 1.5 and 5.4.

Given that the is now more data I would have expected a tightening of projection rather than a loosening. About 15%.

Seeing as confidence is at an all time high- up from 90% to 95%; I wonder what the confidence level would have been had SRES A2 remained at 2.0 to 5.4?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 16th, 2013 at 3:05pm

lee wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 12:33am:
#
I'm a sceptic, with no education past year 10, which was once the norm. I am now an aged pensioner. I also have an enquiring mind.
I was a mature aged university student. My studies related to my employment, which had nothing to do with weather or climate, so I'm no more qualified than you. I'm also now retired.

Scepticism is a rational philosophy. Do you know enough to be rationally sceptical? I don't regard myself that way. I'm sceptical of myself.

You seem to me, overly confident. Is your "enquiring mind" leading you astray?


lee wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 12:33am:
...
If people do not know the science then it is best to be sceptical and do your own thinking. It has been said that scientists are sceptics in that they try to falsify a theory. That is prove it to be false.
I became interested in climate science in the 1950s. There was a show on TV, something like this from YouTube (but black & white, of course) that got me in. After a few decades, it became clear that my best option was just to accept the opinion of the majority of the best qualified.


lee wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 12:33am:
I have always had an interest in maths, and this had led to an interest in Climate Models as they are maths based.

There are a number of articles on the independence of climate models and most agree that they are not truly independent. ...
As they're all modelling the same thing, is it rational to be surprised that they're somewhat interdependent?


lee wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 12:33am:
...
So i do not trust Climate Models, and seeing as AGW is rooted on the models; I can have no faith in that.
In essence, you'd prefer the scientists to use something other than computer models?

Bear in mind that they're better qualified than you or I. They're far from ignorant of computer modelling. In distrusting the modelling, you distrust them.

Do you have a rational reason for your distrust? Not your rationalisation; a rational reason.

As it stands, all I see in your behaviour is confirmation bias upon confirmation bias.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 16th, 2013 at 4:36pm

lee wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 10:04pm:
Now if you can just point me to the calculation on Climate Sensitivity to CO2.

Climate is a chaotic system.

?


Actually weather events can be chaotic in nature.

Climate is a general collection of environmental parameters that have regional importance - like rainfall, temperature range, frequency and intensity of extreme events such as firestorms, cyclones, floods etc...

In any case, chaotic systems are very sensitive to the initial conditions or boundary limits. This does not mean you cannot characterise the behaviour and make predictions.

What it means is that a tiny change in the boundary conditions can result in very complicated and major effects as time evolves.

You really do need to distinguish between WEATHER and CLIMATE - a very common mistake made by many people in here I notice.

Climate is far easier to characterise and predict than individual weather events (even a few days from now)

As far as pointing you in a direction with regards to CO2/climate sensitivity, you may be better advised to nail down the difference between climate and weather first, before you tackle some of the more intricate details of the AGW scientific fact.


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 16th, 2013 at 4:48pm
Lee

Sieve through the medical science data base.

There are plenty or articles describing non-linear and chaotic behaviour of the Human Heart.

Lots of models as well.

The periodic and chaotic behaviour of the human heart can be modelled and predicted very well using mathematical approaches and computer models.

(People are often suspicious of "COMPUTER MODELING" thinking its some abstract computer machine crunching numbers because scientists cant solve a problem. Computer models are merely solving mathematical equations (usually solutions requiring numerical analysis) against a backdrop of assumptions and input data. The output or prediction has an error associated with it. Almost every problem in engineering is solved by simulations, modelling and numerical techniques such as Finite Element analysis. The basis is still mathematical and scientific. Very few problems are ideal in nature whereby you can get away with simple theoretical characterisation, that has analytical solutions to the equations)



Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 16th, 2013 at 5:03pm

lee wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 10:04pm:
Now if you can just point me to the calculation on Climate Sensitivity to CO2.

Climate is a chaotic system.


Climate models are not stochastic. They are largely deterministic. They are based on physics. 

Having said that, it all depends on the degree of resolution. Short term weather for example, is more stochastic than deterministic.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 16th, 2013 at 5:15pm
In peer reviewed papers by Tebaldi and Knutti, who studied climate models, they showed that climate models from the same stable generally only altered parameters on a few variables.

As I've intimated before the models are steaming along, while there is a hiatus in the trend. The IPCC in their wisdom have acknowledged the hiatus now, but don't know why most of the models are not picking it up. Two models MAY be tracking correctly, it is too early to tell. Given that there are over 100 models that is not a great percentage.

And yet the IPCC's confidence has gone up a notch. It certainly can't be on the back of the admissions.

The Climate Sensitivity is used as fixed determinant in the models, it will always project an error, if it is in error, and while fiddling with the other parameters can overcome that short term, it can be no long term solution.

Just as an aside, and I don't know the answer -"How many variables are there for Climate"?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 16th, 2013 at 5:35pm

muso wrote on Nov 16th, 2013 at 5:03pm:

lee wrote on Nov 15th, 2013 at 10:04pm:
Now if you can just point me to the calculation on Climate Sensitivity to CO2.

Climate is a chaotic system.


Climate models are not stochastic. They are largely deterministic. They are based on physics. 

Having said that, it all depends on the degree of resolution. Short term weather for example, is more stochastic than deterministic.


that's true - and it's almost entirely an empirical type determinism that often uses numerical techniques in order to solve the equations within the model - especially the constitutive equations relating to atmospheric and oceanic flows etc.

As far as short term predictions of weather events is concerned, the reason for the often large predictive errors is the sensitivity to initial conditions. The approach is still essentially an empirical based determinism and founded in physics.

Weather and Climate are often confused

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 16th, 2013 at 5:39pm

lee wrote on Nov 16th, 2013 at 5:15pm:
In peer reviewed papers by Tebaldi and Knutti, who studied climate models, they showed that climate models from the same stable generally only altered parameters on a few variables.

As I've intimated before the models are steaming along, while there is a hiatus in the trend. The IPCC in their wisdom have acknowledged the hiatus now, but don't know why most of the models are not picking it up. Two models MAY be tracking correctly, it is too early to tell. Given that there are over 100 models that is not a great percentage.

And yet the IPCC's confidence has gone up a notch. It certainly can't be on the back of the admissions.

The Climate Sensitivity is used as fixed determinant in the models, it will always project an error, if it is in error, and while fiddling with the other parameters can overcome that short term, it can be no long term solution.

Just as an aside, and I don't know the answer -"How many variables are there for Climate"?


Lee,

Have you ever come across a climate model which predicts a decrease in average global temperature as atmospheric CO2 level continue to rise??? (or even a static global temperature as CO2 rises)

I haven't - all climate models that attempt to predict the thermal retention effect of rising CO2, show an increase in average global temperature.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 16th, 2013 at 5:41pm
Yep, and water vapour is all positive feedback.

Edit: When a cloud passes the face of the sun as you are standing under, you feel it cool. When the sky is overcast of a night temperatures tend to stay higher due to an insulating effect. Therefore it seems logical that water vapour can be both a negative and positive feedback.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 16th, 2013 at 5:49pm

lee wrote on Nov 16th, 2013 at 5:41pm:
Yep, and water vapour is all positive feedback.

Edit: When a cloud passes the face of the sun as you are standing under, you feel it cool. When the sky is overcast of a night temperatures tend to stay higher due to an insulating effect. Therefore it seems logical that water vapour can be both a negative and positive feedback.


...water vapour in the earths atmosphere contributes the most to the overall thermal retention rate of the planet. Without it there would be a lot of ice on the earths surface

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 16th, 2013 at 5:55pm

lee wrote on Nov 16th, 2013 at 5:41pm:
Yep, and water vapour is all positive feedback.

Edit: When a cloud passes the face of the sun as you are standing under, you feel it cool. When the sky is overcast of a night temperatures tend to stay higher due to an insulating effect. Therefore it seems logical that water vapour can be both a negative and positive feedback.


It's a lot more complex than that.

Water vapour itself is invisible (it doesn't absorb in the visible part of the spectrum) . Water vapour feedbacks are always positive. That can be measured.

Clouds are made up of water droplets. That's not water vapour.  They are associated with both positive and negative feedbacks. Cloud feedback is where it gets really complex.

Do you understand how water vapour is a positive feedback? Can you explain what you know, so that I can see how much I need to explain further?

Cloud feedbacks are a different subject.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 16th, 2013 at 5:59pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 16th, 2013 at 5:49pm:

lee wrote on Nov 16th, 2013 at 5:41pm:
Yep, and water vapour is all positive feedback.

Edit: When a cloud passes the face of the sun as you are standing under, you feel it cool. When the sky is overcast of a night temperatures tend to stay higher due to an insulating effect. Therefore it seems logical that water vapour can be both a negative and positive feedback.


...water vapour in the earths atmosphere contributes the most to the overall thermal retention rate of the planet. Without it there would be a lot of ice on the earths surface


- and in periods where atmospheric CO2 concentrations have been really low (150-170 ppm), water vapour concentrations have been correspondingly low, as a consequence of lower total forcing. This effect gives rise to climate sensitivity.

It is estimated that water vapour gives causes about 65% of the total Greenhouse Effect.  Climatology 101.

What is the relative humidity if the mean temperature is -18 degrees C?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 16th, 2013 at 6:06pm

muso wrote on Nov 16th, 2013 at 5:59pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 16th, 2013 at 5:49pm:

lee wrote on Nov 16th, 2013 at 5:41pm:
Yep, and water vapour is all positive feedback.

Edit: When a cloud passes the face of the sun as you are standing under, you feel it cool. When the sky is overcast of a night temperatures tend to stay higher due to an insulating effect. Therefore it seems logical that water vapour can be both a negative and positive feedback.


...water vapour in the earths atmosphere contributes the most to the overall thermal retention rate of the planet. Without it there would be a lot of ice on the earths surface


- and in periods where atmospheric CO2 concentrations have been really low (150-170 ppm), water vapour concentrations have been correspondingly low, as a consequence of lower total forcing. This effect gives rise to climate sensitivity.

It is estimated that water vapour gives causes about 65% of the total Greenhouse Effect.  Climatology 101.

What is the relative humidity if the mean temperature is -18 degrees C?


remember, muso, predicting short term weather is NOT a stochastic process.

In the words of master Light and Bobby

you are forgiven,

namaste

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 16th, 2013 at 6:31pm
I'm on your side Chimpy. Short term weather (the behaviour of thunderstorms etc) is largely stochastically modelled by necessity, but I know where you are coming from.  Google thunderstorm and stochastic modelling.

Actually the new generation climate models can also be used for weather modelling, but that wasn't always the case.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 16th, 2013 at 6:47pm

muso wrote on Nov 16th, 2013 at 6:31pm:
I'm on your side Chimpy. Short term weather (the behaviour of thunderstorms etc) is largely stochastically modelled by necessity, but I know where you are coming from.  Google thunderstorm and stochastic modelling.

Actually the new generation climate models can also be used for weather modelling, but that wasn't always the case.


that's only for individual events and their short term behaviour, which are extremely difficult to predict - mainly because of their sensitivity to initial conditions.

Using statistically based modelling is a fairly good approach in these situation (because there are usually no alternatives)

Some years back the most powerful computers could run weather models, but suffered from processor speed. The computers could spew out say a 3 day weather forecast, but it took the computer 2 weeks of processing times to achieve this - bit late by then. But these simulations were still carried out so that the accuracy of the models could be determined.

Large frame computers these days are very much faster (parallel processors etc). In fact some of the largest and fastest computers in the world are used to run weather and climate models. (including in Australia)


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 16th, 2013 at 6:56pm
I was reading through some items on WUWT this morning; (I have subjected myself to self-flagellation). A Warmist posted there that CO2 was both a warming agent and a cooling agent, so Greenhouse Gases must be capable of swinging both ways.

I wonder whether the models take it into account?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 16th, 2013 at 7:39pm
No. Climatologists forget all about basic atmospheric physics, and they need retired radio announcers like Anthony Watts to remind them of such basic facts.

(sarc off)

So what specifically did this "warmist" say?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 16th, 2013 at 7:49pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 16th, 2013 at 6:47pm:
that's only for individual events and their short term behaviour, which are extremely difficult to predict - mainly because of their sensitivity to initial conditions.

Using statistically based modelling is a fairly good approach in these situation (because there are usually no alternatives)

Some years back the most powerful computers could run weather models, but suffered from processor speed. The computers could spew out say a 3 day weather forecast, but it took the computer 2 weeks of processing times to achieve this - bit late by then. But these simulations were still carried out so that the accuracy of the models could be determined.

Large frame computers these days are very much faster (parallel processors etc). In fact some of the largest and fastest computers in the world are used to run weather and climate models. (including in Australia)


Exactly.

It reminds me of the last flooding event in Brisbane, and how everybody was an armchair expert after the event.  The prediction of the storm cells was difficult enough. let alone the fact that they didn't have sufficiently accurate models for the water flows. Regardless of that, they had no scruples about crucifying the engineers who were only doing the best they could without the benefit of 20:20 hindsight.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 16th, 2013 at 8:27pm
Isn't it nice how everyone has an open mind.

Never mind that most of the articles are pro-AGW. (That does not stop them from being criticised).

Just hang him he is a non-believer. As he says he is merely an Aggregator of articles.

I was wrong earlier the comment wasn't about CO2, it was about GHG's generally.

'Well, as I said, ozone depletion was the main factor. But GHG’s were expected to have a cooling effect too. '

Of course you can always look and judge for yourself rather than relying on SKS to form your opinions.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 16th, 2013 at 8:52pm

muso wrote on Nov 16th, 2013 at 7:49pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 16th, 2013 at 6:47pm:
that's only for individual events and their short term behaviour, which are extremely difficult to predict - mainly because of their sensitivity to initial conditions.

Using statistically based modelling is a fairly good approach in these situation (because there are usually no alternatives)

Some years back the most powerful computers could run weather models, but suffered from processor speed. The computers could spew out say a 3 day weather forecast, but it took the computer 2 weeks of processing times to achieve this - bit late by then. But these simulations were still carried out so that the accuracy of the models could be determined.

Large frame computers these days are very much faster (parallel processors etc). In fact some of the largest and fastest computers in the world are used to run weather and climate models. (including in Australia)


Exactly.

It reminds me of the last flooding event in Brisbane, and how everybody was an armchair expert after the event.  The prediction of the storm cells was difficult enough. let alone the fact that they didn't have sufficiently accurate models for the water flows. Regardless of that, they had no scruples about crucifying the engineers who were only doing the best they could without the benefit of 20:20 hindsight.


I am surprised they didn't consult the Vatican - after all the insurance companies were referring to the floods as ACTS OF GOD.

Surely the Pope knew, or some Rabbi had inside trading information - they could of tipped off a few before they drowned or lost their homes

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 16th, 2013 at 9:19pm

lee wrote on Nov 16th, 2013 at 8:27pm:
Isn't it nice how everyone has an open mind.

Never mind that most of the articles are pro-AGW. (That does not stop them from being criticised).

Just hang him he is a non-believer. As he says he is merely an Aggregator of articles.

I was wrong earlier the comment wasn't about CO2, it was about GHG's generally.

'Well, as I said, ozone depletion was the main factor. But GHG’s were expected to have a cooling effect too. '

Of course you can always look and judge for yourself rather than relying on SKS to form your opinions.


I try to avoid the blogs, including Skeptical Science. People insist on cutting and pasting articles here. After a while, it's just too time consuming to debunk very superficial articles. There is so much nonsense out there.

Greenhouse gases have a net warming effect. Do you understand the mechanism? I'm happy to explain it.



Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 17th, 2013 at 7:11am

lee wrote on Nov 16th, 2013 at 8:27pm:
Isn't it nice how everyone has an open mind.

Never mind that most of the articles are pro-AGW. (That does not stop them from being criticised).


There is no problem with having an open mind. All I ask is that you learn the basics first so that you can develop a functional BS meter. Because right now, to be quite frank, you have an Honours NFI in Climatology and you will happily consume anything that passes your way. Soren has an NFI (First class honours) in Climatology. Maybe you could be study buddies.

Well there is a slight chance that you could pick up the basics of atmospheric science by reading WUWT. Hmmmm.


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 17th, 2013 at 10:16am

lee wrote on Nov 16th, 2013 at 6:56pm:
I was reading through some items on WUWT this morning; (I have subjected myself to self-flagellation). A Warmist posted there that CO2 was both a warming agent and a cooling agent, so Greenhouse Gases must be capable of swinging both ways.

I wonder whether the models take it into account?
Why would you assume otherwise?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 17th, 2013 at 10:49am

lee wrote on Nov 16th, 2013 at 8:27pm:
Isn't it nice how everyone has an open mind.
Look to the sources you favour. Where does your bias lie?


lee wrote on Nov 16th, 2013 at 8:27pm:
Never mind that most of the articles are pro-AGW. ...
Could the 95%+ confidence of the vast majority of the best qualified have something to do with the content of most articles?


lee wrote on Nov 16th, 2013 at 8:27pm:
...
Of course you can always look and judge for yourself ...
Which I did for decades before acknowledging that I was fooling nobody but myself.

Amateurs playing around with such complex science will rarely do more than confirm what they already believe.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 17th, 2013 at 10:57am

# wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 10:49am:
Amateurs playing around with such complex science will rarely do more than confirm what they already believe.


.....plenty of amateur scientists throughout history who have done rather well don't you think?

Likewise plenty of so called PROFESSIONALLY qualified scientists who have shamed their links to science

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 17th, 2013 at 12:30pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 10:57am:

# wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 10:49am:
Amateurs playing around with such complex science will rarely do more than confirm what they already believe.


.....plenty of amateur scientists throughout history who have done rather well ...
You're confusing amateur scientist with the ignorant amateurs who call themselves sceptics and pretend to understand the science. I used to be one of those amateurs, until I realised that I lacked the intellectual tools to avoid pitfalls such as confirmation bias.

To be a true amateur scientist takes knowledge, skill and dedication. The amateurs to whom I referred are dedicated solely to supporting their world views.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 17th, 2013 at 12:56pm

# wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 12:30pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 10:57am:

# wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 10:49am:
Amateurs playing around with such complex science will rarely do more than confirm what they already believe.


.....plenty of amateur scientists throughout history who have done rather well ...
You're confusing amateur scientist with the ignorant amateurs who call themselves sceptics and pretend to understand the science. I used to be one of those amateurs, until I realised that I lacked the intellectual tools to avoid pitfalls such as confirmation bias.

To be a true amateur scientist takes knowledge, skill and dedication. The amateurs to whom I referred are dedicated solely to supporting their world views.


even amateur scientists understand a basic P-T phase diagram for water

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 17th, 2013 at 1:02pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 12:56pm:
...
even amateur scientists ...
Again, you're confusing amateur scientists with amateurs who aren't scientists.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 17th, 2013 at 1:14pm

# wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 1:02pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 12:56pm:
...
even amateur scientists ...
Again, you're confusing amateur scientists with amateurs who aren't scientists.


at least they understand why frozen water cannot undergo sublimation at atmospheric pressures.

And they don't try to hide from their mistakes by deflections and garbage

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 17th, 2013 at 1:28pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 1:14pm:

# wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 1:02pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 12:56pm:
...
even amateur scientists ...
Again, you're confusing amateur scientists with amateurs who aren't scientists.


at least they understand why frozen water cannot undergo sublimation at atmospheric pressures.
...
Do you have a freezer?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 17th, 2013 at 1:33pm
What don't you understand about aggregator?

From some of the posts here, some have their opinions pre-formed by others, without going to the source of their angst.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 17th, 2013 at 3:14pm

lee wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 1:33pm:
What don't you understand about aggregator?

From some of the posts here, some have their opinions pre-formed by others, without going to the source of their angst.
How much do you think you understand?
How much do you actually understand?
How do your biases affect what you think you understand?
How do your biases affect your choice of sources?
How does your choice of sources affect your understanding?

As a true sceptic, I choose my sources on their quality. In common with most of those who call themselves sceptics on this board, you appear to choose on the basis of what the source says.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 17th, 2013 at 3:22pm
I regard myself as a sceptic.  That's why I am so quick to dismiss just about anything that Christopher Monckton utters (except maybe, "time for tea"). I have a fully functioning BS meter and I can spot nonsense a mile away.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 17th, 2013 at 3:27pm

# wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 1:28pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 1:14pm:

# wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 1:02pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 12:56pm:
...
even amateur scientists ...
Again, you're confusing amateur scientists with amateurs who aren't scientists.


at least they understand why frozen water cannot undergo sublimation at atmospheric pressures.
...
Do you have a freezer?


you cant change the Triple point of water in the P-T phase diagram - you do realise this is a property of water?

It means that sublimation of frozen water cannot occur above the triple point. ie (0.01 C, 0.00603 ATM)

You can freeze water to whatever temperature below zero that you want, it will not undergo sublimation unless the pressure is below 0.00603 ATM (ie vacuum conditions)

You have a freezer that is under 0.00603 ATM?

You must be in the Freeze Drying industry - check out how they freeze dry products. (hint under vacuum conditions)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 17th, 2013 at 3:28pm
AS I said as an aggregator the source of the article is given if you don't want to believe the first point of contact.

In other words links to livescience, nature whatever.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 17th, 2013 at 3:29pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 1:14pm:
at least they understand why frozen water cannot undergo sublimation at atmospheric pressures.

And they don't try to hide from their mistakes by deflections and garbage


Chimp - it's a very slow process which is part and parcel of glacial ablation.  It's commonly referred to as sublimation, because there is no obvious water phase involved. In point of fact, there is a sub-microscopic layer of water.

Google is your friend. You'll find many glaciology papers that deal with the phenomenon of sublimation.

By the way, you yourself are exhibiting the behaviour of a true sceptic.  You question everything. That's a good thing. Let's move on.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 17th, 2013 at 3:33pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 3:27pm:
It means that sublimation of frozen water cannot occur above the triple point. ie (0.01 C, 0.00603 ATM)


Chimp, Can you get pure water in liquid phase below 0 degrees C at 101.325 kpa ?  The Phase Diagram says no. What do you say?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 17th, 2013 at 3:39pm

muso wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 3:33pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 3:27pm:
It means that sublimation of frozen water cannot occur above the triple point. ie (0.01 C, 0.00603 ATM)


Chimp, Can you get pure water in liquid phase below 0 degrees C at 101.325 kpa ?  The Phase Diagram says no. What do you say?


can you get ice in the ocean at 2 deg C?

The question muso and # is whether ice can undergo sublimation at atmospheric pressure. (no where near low enough pressures)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 17th, 2013 at 3:46pm
You're not listening. The phase diagram refers to equilibrium conditions.  It doesn't allow for kinetics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEODu-ZfFFE

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 17th, 2013 at 3:46pm

muso wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 3:29pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 1:14pm:
at least they understand why frozen water cannot undergo sublimation at atmospheric pressures.

And they don't try to hide from their mistakes by deflections and garbage


Chimp - it's a very slow process which is part and parcel of glacial ablation.  It's commonly referred to as sublimation, because there is no obvious water phase involved. In point of fact, there is a sub-microscopic layer of water.

Google is your friend. You'll find many glaciology papers that deal with the phenomenon of sublimation.

By the way, you yourself are exhibiting the behaviour of a true sceptic.  You question everything. That's a good thing. Let's move on.


...just saying that ice cannot undergo sublimation at atmospheric pressure  - you do understand what the triple point of water is in a standard pressure-temperature phase diagram?

We are not talking about mono-atomic film thicknesses of water.

What is the minimum number of Water molecules that you need to be able to distinguish or characterise the state these water molecules are in?

This is a Quantum Physics problem.

Dry Ice undergoes sublimation very easily at atmospheric pressures - and that's because its triple point is (-56.6 deg C, 5.11 atm). The triple point for water is (0.01 degC, 0.00603 atm)



co2_phase_diagram.gif (5 KB | 31 )

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 17th, 2013 at 3:49pm

muso wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 3:46pm:
You're not listening. The phase diagram refers to equilibrium conditions.  It doesn't allow for kinetics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEODu-ZfFFE


Explain the mechanism whereby frozen ice can undergo sublimation at atmospheric pressure conditions - use all the Kinetics you like

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 17th, 2013 at 4:11pm
Why does water ice have a vapour pressure?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 17th, 2013 at 4:40pm
http://www.igsoc.org:8080/journal/57/204/t10J220.pdf



Quote:
684 Journal of Glaciology, Vol. 57, No. 204, 2011

Sublimation and surface energy budget of Taylor Glacier,
Antarctica


Andrew K. BLISS,Kurt M. CUFFEY, Jeffrey L. KAVANAUGH

Department of Geography, University of California Berkeley, 507 McCone Hall, Berkeley, California 94720-4740, USA
E-mail: andybliss@gmail.com

Department of Earth & Atmospheric Sciences, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta T6G 2E3, Canada

ABSTRACT.

Taylor Glacier, an outlet of the East Antarctic ice sheet, flows through the Transantarctic Mountains and terminates in the Dry Valleys. Understanding how this glacier fluctuates is important for studies of glacial geology, paleoclimate, ice dynamics and ecology. Sublimation is the primary mass-loss process for most of the glacier. Four years of specific balance measurements from the ablation zone show sublimation rates up to 40cm a−1 1.
We used data from an array of weather stations as inputs to a model for latent heat flux and hence sublimation rate. Calculated and measured ablation rates agree to within uncertainties, indicating that wind speed and vapour pressure gradient (a function of temperature and humidity) are the governing variables, as expected from theory. Measurements and model results together allowed us to examine the spatial and temporal variations of sublimation on the glacier. On average, sublimation is about two times faster in summer than winter. Rapid sublimation occurs during storms and katabatic wind events, but such periods contribute less to the annual total than do slow, persistent losses. Spatially, sublimation reaches a maximum midway along the glacier, where descending surface air currents are focused by the topography of the aptly named tributary, Windy Gully.


Imagine extremely cold dry air that is water saturated blowing into a slightly warmer environment (but still sub zero). The vapour pressure of the ice is greater than the partial pressure of water in the warming air.  The result is that water vapour will partition into the flowing air (wind) causing ablation of the ice.  It is commonly referred to as sublimation regardless of the  actual mechanism, which involves an ultra thin film of liquid water far below freezing point.

This is a reputable journal, and the physical chemistry is robust.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 17th, 2013 at 5:30pm

muso wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 4:11pm:
Why does water ice have a vapour pressure?


Explain how ice can undergo sublimation at conditions above the Triple point

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 17th, 2013 at 6:34pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 5:30pm:

muso wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 4:11pm:
Why does water ice have a vapour pressure?


Explain how ice can undergo sublimation at conditions above the Triple point
Can you deny that it does?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Soren on Nov 17th, 2013 at 7:00pm
Muso and Chimp arguing - LOVE IT!!! The clash of mathematics and superstition. 
And since there is no common ground, the result is by no mean certain!!

A parable for our time. The multiculturalism of the mind right before our eyes.






Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 17th, 2013 at 7:53pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 5:30pm:

muso wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 4:11pm:
Why does water ice have a vapour pressure?


Explain how ice can undergo sublimation at conditions above the Triple point


I thought I just did that. Anyway, here goes nothing.

An understanding of the process must include investigation of what is happening on the molecular scale. All sorts of "large-scale" phenomena have properties determined by "microscopic" physics.

A phase diagram is a characterization of the overall "macroscopic" system at equilibrium, something we observe at "laboratory-scale". The phenomenon you are asking about concerns physical behavior at the "microscopic" (in this case, molecular) scale. It requires a current of air to work, so the system is not at equilibrium. As we saw from the supercooled water experiment, the phase diagram is not hard and fast for all situations.

At any temperature above 0 K, there will always be a tiny ( the colder it gets, the lesser it gets)  fraction of water molecules at the surface of the ice which can obtain a kinetic energy sufficient to overcome the weak intermolecular bonds with their neighbours and escape the surface. In that sense, the process isn't much different from the evaporation of liquid water at temperatures well below the boiling point (for instance, water at 300 K does have a vapor pressure). The sublimation is really slow, but it is there.

You can look at this as being a sub-microscopic layer of liquid supercooled water if you like, but the effect is essentially a slow sublimation.

Now in the Antarctic Dry Valleys, most ablation is caused by Katabatic winds. Do you understand how that works? Katabatic winds are denser than the surrounding atmosphere and they flow downhill as a result of the effect of gravity. These winds are extremely  cold and dry as a result.

What can you tell me about the effect of increasing water vapour on the density of air?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 17th, 2013 at 7:59pm
Chimp - you seem to have an inability to think outside the box. Another example was the Linear Non Threshold Dose Response for radiation.

You don't seem to understand the underlying science. You take the "Rulez is rulez" approach.

Don't take this the wrong way, but are you really male?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 17th, 2013 at 8:44pm

muso wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 7:59pm:
Chimp - you seem to have an inability to think outside the box. Another example was the Linear Non Threshold Dose Response for radiation.

You don't seem to understand the underlying science. You take the "Rulez is rulez" approach.

Don't take this the wrong way, but are you really male?


why would I take your chauvinism the wrong way

That is a matter between you and your therapist

You still haven't provided a clear explanation of how ice can undergo sublimation at pressures above the Triple Point pressure of 0.00603 atm.

You mentioned the use of the term "sublimation" in a slow glacial process, because no "obvious liquid water phase" could be observed.

I make the contention that there actually IS a liquid phase in between the solid and gaseous phases at these atmospheric pressures.

Sublimation is not the correct term to describe this process in my opinion.

They can call it pseudo-sublimation if they want

I suspect that these glaciologists are aware of the inappropriateness of using this very well defined phase change term.

cheers muso and #

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 17th, 2013 at 8:59pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 8:44pm:
You mentioned the use of the term "sublimation" in a slow glacial process, because no "obvious liquid water phase" could be observed.

I make the contention that there actually IS a liquid phase in between the solid and gaseous phases at these atmospheric pressures.

Sublimation is not the correct term to describe this process in my opinion.

They can call it pseudo-sublimation if they want

I suspect that these glaciologists are aware of the inappropriateness of using this very well defined phase change term.

cheers muso and #


Isn't that basically what I already said?  You can look at it as a submicroscopic water layer if you prefer? You do realise what temperatures we're talking about? Have a read:

http://icestories.exploratorium.edu/dispatches/big-ideas/dry-valleys/

Anyway, This is not exactly theoretical. There's a bloody great glacier that flows into and terminates in an Antarctic Dry Valley.  There is no water involved because it's too cold.

It's a really good place to find meteorites too, because as the ice sublimates it leaves behind anything that dropped into it.   

Sorry about my chauvinistic comment Mrs Chimp. Men and Women do think differently. It wasn't unreasonable.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 17th, 2013 at 9:23pm

muso wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 8:59pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 8:44pm:
You mentioned the use of the term "sublimation" in a slow glacial process, because no "obvious liquid water phase" could be observed.

I make the contention that there actually IS a liquid phase in between the solid and gaseous phases at these atmospheric pressures.

Sublimation is not the correct term to describe this process in my opinion.

They can call it pseudo-sublimation if they want

I suspect that these glaciologists are aware of the inappropriateness of using this very well defined phase change term.

cheers muso and #


Isn't that basically what I already said?  You can look at it as a submicroscopic water layer if you prefer? You do realise what temperatures we're talking about? Have a read:

http://icestories.exploratorium.edu/dispatches/big-ideas/dry-valleys/

Anyway, This is not exactly theoretical. There's a bloody great glacier that flows into and terminates in an Antarctic Dry Valley.  There is no water involved because it's too cold.

It's a really good place to find meteorites too, because as the ice sublimates it leaves behind anything that dropped into it.   

Sorry about my chauvinistic comment Mrs Chimp. Men and Women do think differently. It wasn't unreasonable.


No need to apologise for your chauvinism

The only physiological difference between men and women in terms of brain function is that the female brain has a greater capacity in the left-right brain hemisphere interface

Kind of explains why women can carry out many tasks at the same time - generally better than men.

And apart from the obvious hormonal differences, there is no scientific evidence I am aware of that shows men and women think differently about issues.

In any case, the Triple Point remains a property of the phase changing nature of water (and every other substance)

Good old simple Hydrogen has a P-T phase diagram. And even here we cant hide the triple point


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 18th, 2013 at 3:50am

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 9:23pm:
The only physiological difference between men and women in terms of brain function is that the female brain has a greater capacity in the left-right brain hemisphere interface

Kind of explains why women can carry out many tasks at the same time - generally better than men.

And apart from the obvious hormonal differences, there is no scientific evidence I am aware of that shows men and women think differently about issues.


Soren, for all his faults, will have a field day with this, and he'll be right. My life experience helps me tell the difference. There are distinctive personality differences. Don't get me wrong though. They are subtle differences that make very little difference in practice. I'm not claiming significant advantages (but you are....hmmm. )

I also think that you're trying to applying phase diagrams inappropriately - In other words in non-equilibrium cases. In the Antarctic situation, there are all sorts of complex dynamic effects at play. Surface effects, non laminar flow, Venturi effects etc.  We have katabatic winds at speeds in excess of 200km/hr. It's not a neat quasi-equilibrium laboratory experiment where everything  fits neatly into boxes. You're not making allowances for kinetics and fluid dynamics. 

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 18th, 2013 at 9:05am

muso wrote on Nov 18th, 2013 at 3:50am:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17th, 2013 at 9:23pm:
The only physiological difference between men and women in terms of brain function is that the female brain has a greater capacity in the left-right brain hemisphere interface

Kind of explains why women can carry out many tasks at the same time - generally better than men.

And apart from the obvious hormonal differences, there is no scientific evidence I am aware of that shows men and women think differently about issues.


Soren, for all his faults, will have a field day with this, and he'll be right. My life experience helps me tell the difference. There are distinctive personality differences. Don't get me wrong though. They are subtle differences that make very little difference in practice. I'm not claiming significant advantages (but you are....hmmm. )

I also think that you're trying to applying phase diagrams inappropriately - In other words in non-equilibrium cases. In the Antarctic situation, there are all sorts of complex dynamic effects at play. Surface effects, non laminar flow, Venturi effects etc.  We have katabatic winds at speeds in excess of 200km/hr. It's not a neat quasi-equilibrium laboratory experiment where everything  fits neatly into boxes. You're not making allowances for kinetics and fluid dynamics. 


that's all I am saying anyway...

describe the mechanism by which frozen water goes from a solid state to a gaseous state, at pressures above the Triple point (ie in this case at atmospheric pressure)

You yourself describe a monolayer of water molecules and characterise this layer as a liquid. (more explanation please)

The process that is described is not strictly sublimation. Maybe Pseudo-sublimation or the process is so slow that it appears that a liquid phase is avoided and frozen ice directly turns into water vapour.

Remember you are operating at ambient pressures that are two orders of magnitude higher than the minimum pressure needed for sublimation to occur (for water)

(I know a researcher who worked for CSIRO in the past and has carried out research in Antarctica. I may whip out an email to her this week, if I can track her down)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 18th, 2013 at 9:08am
Do that. She would know about the McMurdo Dry Valleys I suspect.

Think of it in similar terms to water. At the boiling point, the partial pressure of water vapour is equal to the atmospheric pressure. However as we approach boiling point there is still a significant volume of water vapour given off. It's not actually boiling. It's evaporating.

In the same way, you could say that ice is evaporating, but as it's going from solid to liquid, the term used is sublimating.  There is no practical distinction in terminology  made between ice vaporising below the triple point or above the triple point pressure, although we know that the Sublimation Point is defined for given pressures.  At the Sublimation/Deposition point itself, there is a phase transition.  As long as enough heat is applied/ removed to maintain the Sublimation/deposition temperature, then the process will rapidly go to completion.

I know exactly where you're coming from though.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 18th, 2013 at 2:28pm

muso wrote on Nov 18th, 2013 at 9:08am:
...
I know exactly where you're coming from though.
I wish I did. To me he seems to be saying that, if you see something happen and can't explain how it happens, then it can't be happening.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 19th, 2013 at 1:36pm
Chimp - read my last post on this thread and please stop taking up two threads on the same subject.

# and Chimp:

1. Boiling is the rapid change of state from liquid to gas ok? It occurs at the Boiling Point.

2. Evaporation is the slow change of state from liquid to gas. It occurs below the boiling Point. It's a consequence of the vapour pressure of water even below the Boiling Point.

3. Sublimation is the rapid change of state from Solid to gas ok? It occurs at the Sublimation Point. (Refer to your phase diagram)

4. The slow change of state that occurs because of ice evaporating (even above the triple point pressure) is also called sublimation. That's common nomenclature. It's an entirely different process from case 3, but it still involves the transition from solid to gas (at a much slower rate). This rate of "sublimation" is dependent on the rate at which the water vapour in the gas phase is removed (Le Chateliers principle).

This has been much more interesting that arguing with denialist dead heads, but let's move on. OK? 


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 19th, 2013 at 3:27pm

muso wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 1:36pm:
Chimp - read my last post on this thread and please stop taking up two threads on the same subject.

# and Chimp:

1. Boiling is the rapid change of state from liquid to gas ok? It occurs at the Boiling Point.

2. Evaporation is the slow change of state from liquid to gas. It occurs below the boiling Point. It's a consequence of the vapour pressure of water even below the Boiling Point.

3. Sublimation is the rapid change of state from Solid to gas ok? It occurs at the Sublimation Point. (Refer to your phase diagram)

4. The slow change of state that occurs because of ice evaporating (even above the triple point pressure) is also called sublimation. That's common nomenclature. It's an entirely different process from case 3, but it still involves the transition from solid to gas (at a much slower rate). This rate of "sublimation" is dependent on the rate at which the water vapour in the gas phase is removed (Le Chateliers principle).

This has been much more interesting that arguing with denialist dead heads, but let's move on. OK? 


why are you interfering in the classes I am running with #?

you and # seem very close

(incidentally muso, you made ONE very BIG fundamental error in the above post - see if you can spot it, or did you do it deliberately? OK?)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 19th, 2013 at 3:41pm


I'm telling you both  enough already  ;D

Maybe I could have expanded on Point 3 and said that a "Sublimation Point" is only possible for pressures below 0.006 atmospheres, and that the Sublimation Point is not constant but varies with pressure. (The stem of the Y is not vertical).


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 19th, 2013 at 3:45pm

muso wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 3:41pm:


I'm telling you both  enough already  ;D


Its a great graph isn't it muso?

The freeze drying industry love it


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 19th, 2013 at 3:49pm
I said above instead of below. Is that what you mean?

No. That was intentional.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 19th, 2013 at 3:50pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 3:45pm:

muso wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 3:41pm:


I'm telling you both  enough already  ;D


Its a great graph isn't it muso?

The freeze drying industry love it


Chimp: Does Freeze drying require a pressure below 0.006 atmospheres?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 19th, 2013 at 3:57pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 3:45pm:
Its a great graph isn't it muso?

The freeze drying industry love it


Here's another one for you.
edia.jpg (43 KB | 35 )

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 19th, 2013 at 4:04pm

muso wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 3:50pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 3:45pm:

muso wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 3:41pm:


I'm telling you both  enough already  ;D


Its a great graph isn't it muso?

The freeze drying industry love it


Chimp: Does Freeze drying require a pressure below 0.006 atmospheres?


Did you know that Freeze drying in industry is deliberately carried out at a slow rate? Over several days rather than at a very rapid rate. There is a very good reason why they freeze dry slowly.

Did you identify your fundamental error in the points you listed above muso?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 19th, 2013 at 4:17pm
Hint 3b (19th November 2013)


The mean air humidity in Antarctica is very close to zero.


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 19th, 2013 at 4:22pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 4:04pm:

Quote:
Chimp: Does Freeze drying require a pressure below 0.006 atmospheres?


Did you know that Freeze drying in industry is deliberately carried out at a slow rate? Over several days rather than at a very rapid rate. There is a very good reason why they freeze dry slowly.


I'll take that as meaning that you don't know.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 19th, 2013 at 4:36pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 4:17pm:
Hint 3b (19th November 2013)


The mean air humidity in Antarctica is very close to zero.


Well if you're talking about that phrase, you'll note that I didn't say Relative Humidity. I said Humidity (absolute). If it's not that, I don't know what you're talking about.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:49pm

muso wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 4:36pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 4:17pm:
Hint 3b (19th November 2013)


The mean air humidity in Antarctica is very close to zero.


Well if you're talking about that phrase, you'll note that I didn't say Relative Humidity. I said Humidity (absolute). If it's not that, I don't know what you're talking about.


...no - look again muso (Hint 3b is related to something else)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 19th, 2013 at 7:44pm
The partial pressure of water in the Antarctic atmophere, particularly katabatic winds, may be below the triple point pressure.

The phase diagram for water is a single component phase diagram. You've been talking about atmospheric pressure. In fact the partial pressure of air is irrelevant to the phase diagram because the P that we're referring to in the phase diagram is the partial pressure of water.

(Remamber the Gibbs Phase rule F=C-2 +P)

Is that what you mean?

If it is, then I don't think you thought of it yourself based on your earlier comments, but kudos for the "research" (phone a friend). 

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 19th, 2013 at 7:52pm

muso wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 7:44pm:
The partial pressure of water in the Antarctic atmophere, particularly katabatic winds, may be below the triple point pressure.

Is that what you mean?

If it is, then I don't think you thought of it yourself based on your earlier comments.


muso, I am like Tel Aviv and the Knesset, I neither confirm nor deny the possession of nuclear weaponry

Its all a matter of time

OR IS IT?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 19th, 2013 at 7:58pm
Either way, you could have spared # of a highly technical argument, because in practice, he was perfectly correct.

I don't think he claims to be a scientist.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 19th, 2013 at 8:16pm

muso wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 7:58pm:
Either way, you could have spared # of a highly technical argument, because in practice, he was perfectly correct.

I don't think he claims to be a scientist.


you know # do you?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 20th, 2013 at 4:47am
Just from here.  Enough to know that he has common sense.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 20th, 2013 at 10:55am

muso wrote on Nov 20th, 2013 at 4:47am:
Just from here.  Enough to know that he has common sense.


so you still haven't found it yet muso?

you still have TIME

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 20th, 2013 at 11:53am
Yes I have. I already explained it to you.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 20th, 2013 at 12:25pm

muso wrote on Nov 20th, 2013 at 11:53am:
Yes I have. I already explained it to you.


you mean you haven't found it yet?

keep looking muso.

you'll kick yourself when you discover it

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 20th, 2013 at 5:28pm
A new paper on Arctic Ice-
'Abstract. Understanding recent Arctic climate change requires detailed information on past changes, in particular on a regional scale. The extension of the depth–age relation of the Akademii Nauk (AN) ice core from Severnaya Zemlya (SZ) to the last 1100 yr provides new perspectives on past climate fluctuations in the Barents and Kara seas region. Here, we present the easternmost high-resolution ice-core climate proxy records (δ18O and sodium) from the Arctic. Multi-annual AN δ18O data as near-surface air-temperature proxies reveal major temperature changes over the last millennium, including the absolute minimum around 1800 and the unprecedented warming to a double-peak maximum in the early 20th century. The long-term cooling trend in δ18O is related to a decline in summer insolation but also to the growth of the AN ice cap as indicated by decreasing sodium concentrations. Neither a pronounced Medieval Climate Anomaly nor a Little Ice Age are detectable in the AN δ18O record. In contrast, there is evidence of several abrupt warming and cooling events, such as in the 15th and 16th centuries, partly accompanied by corresponding changes in sodium concentrations. These abrupt changes are assumed to be related to sea-ice cover variability in the Barents and Kara seas region, which might be caused by shifts in atmospheric circulation patterns. Our results indicate a significant impact of internal climate variability on Arctic climate change in the last millennium.

Clim-pastdotnet   /9/2379/2013/cp-9-2379-2013.html

Shows a double peak warming spot in the 1920's to 40's that seem warmer than up to about 1998. So may be not as far back as thought.

Of course with massaged "data" from the models, anything is possible.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 20th, 2013 at 5:48pm
Chimp - I already said that the relevant pressure is the partial pressure of water as opposed to total barometric pressure. 

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 20th, 2013 at 7:07pm

muso wrote on Nov 20th, 2013 at 5:48pm:
Chimp - I already said that the relevant pressure is the partial pressure of water as opposed to total barometric pressure. 


....keep looking

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 20th, 2013 at 7:55pm
I'll bet it's something that's irrelevant. You are deflecting from the fact that you made a much greater blunder earlier.


Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 18th, 2013 at 9:05am:
describe the mechanism by which frozen water goes from a solid state to a gaseous state, at pressures above the Triple point (ie in this case at atmospheric pressure)


You see?  Can I answer that point now, or can you answer it yourself?  - and you claim that I have an ego!

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 20th, 2013 at 8:24pm

muso wrote on Nov 20th, 2013 at 7:55pm:
I'll bet it's something that's irrelevant. You are deflecting from the fact that you made a much greater blunder earlier.


Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 18th, 2013 at 9:05am:
describe the mechanism by which frozen water goes from a solid state to a gaseous state, at pressures above the Triple point (ie in this case at atmospheric pressure)


You see?  Can I answer that point now, or can you answer it yourself?  - and you claim that I have an ego!


actually the word "ego" is a Greek word - it means "I" or the sensation/awareness of SELF in psychology.

We all have an ego apparently - nothing to be ashamed of

You're not denying that you have an ego are you muso?



Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 20th, 2013 at 8:26pm
...you may chill out any runaway "ego" scenario

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypUoV4FwRsw&feature=player_detailpage

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 20th, 2013 at 9:36pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 20th, 2013 at 8:24pm:
actually the word "ego" is a Greek word - it means "I" or the sensation/awareness of SELF in psychology.

We all have an ego apparently - nothing to be ashamed of

You're not denying that you have an ego are you muso?


LOL. We all have moderately inflated egos.  I had that partial pressure card ready to play, but I wanted to see if you picked up on it first.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 20th, 2013 at 9:43pm

muso wrote on Nov 20th, 2013 at 9:36pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 20th, 2013 at 8:24pm:
actually the word "ego" is a Greek word - it means "I" or the sensation/awareness of SELF in psychology.

We all have an ego apparently - nothing to be ashamed of

You're not denying that you have an ego are you muso?


LOL. We all have moderately inflated egos.  I had that partial pressure card ready to play, but I wanted to see if you picked up on it first.


keep searching muso

its not a subtle philosophical error

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 20th, 2013 at 9:47pm
You do understand that freeze drying is possible at atmospheric pressure now, I take it?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 20th, 2013 at 9:58pm

muso wrote on Nov 20th, 2013 at 9:47pm:
You do understand that freeze drying is possible at atmospheric pressure now, I take it?


...keep going muso, elaborate

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 20th, 2013 at 10:04pm
'A new paper on Arctic Ice-
'Abstract. Understanding recent Arctic climate change requires detailed information on past changes, in particular on a regional scale. The extension of the depth–age relation of the Akademii Nauk (AN) ice core from Severnaya Zemlya (SZ) to the last 1100 yr provides new perspectives on past climate fluctuations in the Barents and Kara seas region. Here, we present the easternmost high-resolution ice-core climate proxy records (δ18O and sodium) from the Arctic. Multi-annual AN δ18O data as near-surface air-temperature proxies reveal major temperature changes over the last millennium, including the absolute minimum around 1800 and the unprecedented warming to a double-peak maximum in the early 20th century. The long-term cooling trend in δ18O is related to a decline in summer insolation but also to the growth of the AN ice cap as indicated by decreasing sodium concentrations. Neither a pronounced Medieval Climate Anomaly nor a Little Ice Age are detectable in the AN δ18O record. In contrast, there is evidence of several abrupt warming and cooling events, such as in the 15th and 16th centuries, partly accompanied by corresponding changes in sodium concentrations. These abrupt changes are assumed to be related to sea-ice cover variability in the Barents and Kara seas region, which might be caused by shifts in atmospheric circulation patterns. Our results indicate a significant impact of internal climate variability on Arctic climate change in the last millennium.

Clim-past. net   /9/2379/2013/cp-9-2379-2013.html

Another not a denialist site.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 20th, 2013 at 10:20pm

lee wrote on Nov 20th, 2013 at 10:04pm:
'A new paper on Arctic Ice-
'Abstract. Understanding recent Arctic climate change requires detailed information on past changes, in particular on a regional scale. The extension of the depth–age relation of the Akademii Nauk (AN) ice core from Severnaya Zemlya (SZ) to the last 1100 yr provides new perspectives on past climate fluctuations in the Barents and Kara seas region. Here, we present the easternmost high-resolution ice-core climate proxy records (δ18O and sodium) from the Arctic. Multi-annual AN δ18O data as near-surface air-temperature proxies reveal major temperature changes over the last millennium, including the absolute minimum around 1800 and the unprecedented warming to a double-peak maximum in the early 20th century. The long-term cooling trend in δ18O is related to a decline in summer insolation but also to the growth of the AN ice cap as indicated by decreasing sodium concentrations. Neither a pronounced Medieval Climate Anomaly nor a Little Ice Age are detectable in the AN δ18O record. In contrast, there is evidence of several abrupt warming and cooling events, such as in the 15th and 16th centuries, partly accompanied by corresponding changes in sodium concentrations. These abrupt changes are assumed to be related to sea-ice cover variability in the Barents and Kara seas region, which might be caused by shifts in atmospheric circulation patterns. Our results indicate a significant impact of internal climate variability on Arctic climate change in the last millennium.

Clim-past. net   /9/2379/2013/cp-9-2379-2013.html

Another not a denialist site.


What journal was this PAPER ON ARTIC ICE published in?

Why just post the abstract?

What is the title of the paper?

Who are the authors?

I cant seem to find them - help me a bit with this one lee

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 21st, 2013 at 4:48am

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 20th, 2013 at 9:58pm:

muso wrote on Nov 20th, 2013 at 9:47pm:
You do understand that freeze drying is possible at atmospheric pressure now, I take it?


...keep going muso, elaborate


Generally it's at reduced pressure, however sublimation (as opposed to evaporation) can take place as long as the partial pressure of water in the gas phase does not exceed 608 Pa (4.56 Torr) although if you want to avoid liquid water, you'd tend to aim for a much lower partial pressure than that.

This can occur at normal atmospheric pressure. In laboratory scale freeze driers such as I've used (many years ago), this is not practical. As moisture is extracted from the preparation, it will tend to increase the partial pressure above the triple point. We used to use a vacuum pump plus  a dessicant such as magnesium perchlorate (ouch). It's also an endothermic process. To achieve optimal control, the substance needs to be given time to absorb energy from the environment, or it will just keep getting colder. 

Now what's your point? Are you going on about the use of "subliminate" as opposed to sublimate? Or is it something less trivial than that?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 21st, 2013 at 8:40am

muso wrote on Nov 21st, 2013 at 4:48am:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 20th, 2013 at 9:58pm:

muso wrote on Nov 20th, 2013 at 9:47pm:
You do understand that freeze drying is possible at atmospheric pressure now, I take it?


...keep going muso, elaborate


Generally it's at reduced pressure, however sublimation (as opposed to evaporation) can take place as long as the partial pressure of water in the gas phase does not exceed 608 Pa (4.56 Torr) although if you want to avoid liquid water, you'd tend to aim for a much lower partial pressure than that.

This can occur at normal atmospheric pressure. In laboratory scale freeze driers such as I've used (many years ago), this is not practical. As moisture is extracted from the preparation, it will tend to increase the partial pressure above the triple point. We used to use a vacuum pump plus  a dessicant such as magnesium perchlorate (ouch). It's also an endothermic process. To achieve optimal control, the substance needs to be given time to absorb energy from the environment, or it will just keep getting colder. 

Now what's your point? Are you going on about the use of "subliminate" as opposed to sublimate? Or is it something less trivial than that?


so you still don't get it muso?

keep searching

I don't spoon feed - its detrimental to my students

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 21st, 2013 at 11:46am
Chimp_Logic

Clim-past. net   /9/2379/2013/cp-9-2379-2013.html

If you complete the link with the w's, take out the spaces you should find it.


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 21st, 2013 at 1:52pm

lee wrote on Nov 21st, 2013 at 11:46am:
Chimp_Logic

www.clim-past.net/9/2379/2013/cp-9-2379-2013.html

If you complete the link with the w's, take out the spaces you should find it.



Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 21st, 2013 at 2:06pm
What point are you making , Lee?

Chimp - I'm rapidly getting bored with this. You are the one who was saying that sublimation is not possible at atmospheric pressure. Now you're creating a smoke screen because your inflated simian ego is not allowed to be wrong.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 21st, 2013 at 4:07pm

muso wrote on Nov 21st, 2013 at 2:06pm:
What point are you making , Lee?

Chimp - I'm rapidly getting bored with this. You are the one who was saying that sublimation is not possible at atmospheric pressure. Now you're creating a smoke screen because your inflated simian ego is not allowed to be wrong.


its a simple question - asked over and over again

You use vagueness and deflections and returned questions in order to avoid a simple question.

who is #?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 21st, 2013 at 4:26pm
You should ask # who he is.


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 21st, 2013 at 5:21pm

muso wrote on Nov 21st, 2013 at 4:26pm:
You should ask # who he is.


he wont tell me

you and # seem to be very close

Just thought I would check with you first

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 21st, 2013 at 7:27pm

muso wrote on Nov 20th, 2013 at 9:47pm:
You do understand that freeze drying is possible at atmospheric pressure now, I take it?


...with CO2, no problem - its triple point pressure is 5.11 ATM well above atmospheric pressure - haven't you seen how dry ice behaves at parties?

Are you saying water can be used to carry out the freeze drying process at atmospheric pressure?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 21st, 2013 at 7:33pm
Your question doesn't make any sense. Chimp, you probably need a primer on Freeze Drying. Here is an excellent site from your favourite industry:

http://freezedrying.com/freeze-dryers/general-principles-of-freeze-drying/

Quote:
Importance of Vacuum in the Freeze Drying Process

Freeze Drying can only take place if the partial pressure of the vapor in the drying chamber is lower than the water vapor pressure above the product. By strict definition, the vacuum in the chamber is not essential, as sublimation can take place at atmospheric pressure by passing dehydrated air above the product. By artificially lowering the pressure in the drying chamber the time can be reduced.


Happy reading.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 21st, 2013 at 7:51pm

muso wrote on Nov 21st, 2013 at 4:26pm:
You should ask # who he is.
He has.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 21st, 2013 at 7:54pm
Damn. So he did.  I should have said that you were the World's foremost authority on Freeze Drying.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 21st, 2013 at 8:32pm

lee wrote on Nov 20th, 2013 at 5:28pm:
...
Of course with massaged "data" from the models, anything is possible.
Yet again, lee, you demonstrate the hazards of research in ignorance. You don't understand what you're reading. Your interpretation is a reflection of your beliefs.

You do realise, don't you, that your denial can be true only on the foundation of an improbably vast conspiracy or similarly improbable ineptitude?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 21st, 2013 at 9:11pm

muso wrote on Nov 21st, 2013 at 7:33pm:
Your question doesn't make any sense. Chimp, you probably need a primer on Freeze Drying. Here is an excellent site from your favourite industry:

http://freezedrying.com/freeze-dryers/general-principles-of-freeze-drying/

Quote:
Importance of Vacuum in the Freeze Drying Process

Freeze Drying can only take place if the partial pressure of the vapor in the drying chamber is lower than the water vapor pressure above the product. By strict definition, the vacuum in the chamber is not essential, as sublimation can take place at atmospheric pressure by passing dehydrated air above the product. By artificially lowering the pressure in the drying chamber the time can be reduced.


Happy reading.

it seems that you don't even understand your own posts

I really cant make it any more simpler for you muso

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 21st, 2013 at 9:50pm
Chimp - Don't be a clown.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 21st, 2013 at 10:16pm
Now in the words of the Great Mr Greggy, "you must focus"

HINT 4c: There are two stages in a basic industrial freeze drying process (Primary and Secondary). A subtle but important distinction - perhaps an absorption isotherm will assist?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 7:17am
No, I'm sorry Chimp. Your technical knowledge far outshines my own. I am not worthy. Please illuminate us all.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 8:51am

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 21st, 2013 at 10:16pm:
Now in the words of the Great Mr Greggy, "you must focus"
...
Now you're trolling.

muso wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 7:17am:
No, I'm sorry Chimp. Your technical knowledge far outshines my own. I am not worthy. Please illuminate us all.

See your troll and raise you one.  ;)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 9:46am

muso wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 7:17am:
No, I'm sorry Chimp. Your technical knowledge far outshines my own. I am not worthy. Please illuminate us all.


I am here to learn from the best.

I have been feverishly trying to get some direct answers and/or explanations but # has been avoiding me and my queries.

I am about to ask # if he can provide an example of a freeze drying process industry that doesn't use a vacuum.

HINT 6f: Ablation

HINT 6g


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 2:43pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 9:46am:
...
I am here to learn from the best.
...
No Chimp, right now, you're here to troll.

Consider this a warning.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 6:06pm

# wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 2:43pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 9:46am:
...
I am here to learn from the best.
...
No Chimp, right now, you're here to troll.

Consider this a warning.


First you refuse to respond to questions, then you vanish, then all of a sudden you are issuing threats of banishments

who are you really?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 7:17pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 6:06pm:

# wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 2:43pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 9:46am:
...
I am here to learn from the best.
...
No Chimp, right now, you're here to troll.

Consider this a warning.


First you refuse to respond to questions, then you vanish, then all of a sudden you are issuing threats of banishments

who are you really?

If you have something to say, then say it. If you have nothing to contribute, then say nothing.

This subject is a distraction from the topic.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 7:29pm
You can split it out if you want.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 8:39pm

# wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 7:17pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 6:06pm:

# wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 2:43pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 9:46am:
...
I am here to learn from the best.
...
No Chimp, right now, you're here to troll.

Consider this a warning.


First you refuse to respond to questions, then you vanish, then all of a sudden you are issuing threats of banishments

who are you really?

If you have something to say, then say it. If you have nothing to contribute, then say nothing.

This subject is a distraction from the topic.


You should be humble and grateful to muso for protecting your public honour in your terrible time of need.

muso put in a lot of time and energy - the very least you can do is provide an explanation as to why the glacial rate of sublimation isn't in equilibrium with the rate of deposition

OR PERHAPS IT IS IN EQUILIBRIUM!

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by progressiveslol on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 9:29am
Well this paper makes it difficult to come up with this paper

Study: Greenland Ice Sheet was smaller 3000-5000 years ago than today

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/11/22/study-greenland-ice-sheet-was-smaller-3000-5000-years-ago-than-today/

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 3:06pm

progressiveslol wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 9:29am:
...wattsupwiththat.com...[/url]
The amateur who relies on denialist blogs is bound to be deceived.

Quote:
Willard Anthony Watts (Anthony Watts) is a blogger, weathercaster and non-scientist, paid AGW denier who runs the website wattsupwiththat.com. He does not have a university qualification and has no climate credentials other than being a radio weather announcer. His website is parodied and debunked at the website wottsupwiththat.com Watts is on the payroll of the Heartland Institute, which itself is funded by polluting industries


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 3:15pm
Try -

"Amino acid ratios in reworked marine bivalve shells constrain Greenland Ice Sheet history during the Holocene

    Jason P. Briner1,
    Darrell S. Kaufman2,
    Ole Bennike3 and
    Matthew A. Kosnik4"

'Furthermore, the frequency of Asp-inferred bivalve ages from the three widely separated locations is nearly identical, with most ages between 5 and 3 ka, coinciding with optimum oceanic conditions. '

extract: .geology.gsapubs.org/content/early/2013/11/21/G34843.1.abstract

with htt? at the front end. It is part of the abstract; the rest is behind a paywall. From the University of Buffalo.

It is interesting that the Koch Bros keep getting a mention. They also fund several universities, including Mann's current tenure. Not saying he is funded by them, just pointing to their wide interests. :)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 3:16pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 8:39pm:

# wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 7:17pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 6:06pm:

# wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 2:43pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 9:46am:
...
I am here to learn from the best.
...
No Chimp, right now, you're here to troll.

Consider this a warning.


First you refuse to respond to questions, then you vanish, then all of a sudden you are issuing threats of banishments

who are you really?

If you have something to say, then say it. If you have nothing to contribute, then say nothing.

This subject is a distraction from the topic.

... the very least you can do is provide an explanation as to why the glacial rate of sublimation ...
No, it isn't. You see, I don't claim to be a scientist. Any such attempt on my part would be dishonest.

You acknowledge, however, that glacial ice sublimes at atmospheric pressure. That, at least, is progress.

I merely pointed out what happens. You didn't deny it (and now acknowledge it), but affected to be nonplussed at not understanding it. To me, it's about as puzzling as laundry drying on a clothes line.

I you're really puzzled by the phenomenon, then you put yourself in the same league as lee; an amateur, failing to understand what they're not qualified to understand.

From my observation, you're not really puzzled at all. You're just saying what will get you attention. In other words, you're trolling.

It seems that muso judges otherwise. I'll bow to his superior experience.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 3:30pm

lee wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 3:15pm:
Try -

"Amino acid ratios in reworked marine bivalve shells constrain Greenland Ice Sheet history during the Holocene
...
Yes lee, and which of us is qualified to interpret?

That paper is generating a lot of hyperventilation in the denyosphere. I've no doubt you found it through some denier blog, which primed you with an interpretation that reinforces your beliefs.

For the record, the abstract is at http://geology.gsapubs.org/content/early/2013/11/21/G34843.1.abstract. I'll wait for credible commentary.

Actually, I'll stick with the majority of the best qualified and avoid distraction by isolated studies. The forest, not the trees. Not that I have anything against trees.  :)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 3:34pm

# wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 3:16pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 8:39pm:

# wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 7:17pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 6:06pm:

# wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 2:43pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 9:46am:
...
I am here to learn from the best.
...
No Chimp, right now, you're here to troll.

Consider this a warning.


First you refuse to respond to questions, then you vanish, then all of a sudden you are issuing threats of banishments

who are you really?

If you have something to say, then say it. If you have nothing to contribute, then say nothing.

This subject is a distraction from the topic.

... the very least you can do is provide an explanation as to why the glacial rate of sublimation ...
No, it isn't. You see, I don't claim to be a scientist. Any such attempt on my part would be dishonest.

You acknowledge, however, that glacial ice sublimes at atmospheric pressure. That, at least, is progress.

I merely pointed out what happens. You didn't deny it (and now acknowledge it), but affected to be nonplussed at not understanding it. To me, it's about as puzzling as laundry drying on a clothes line.

I you're really puzzled by the phenomenon, then you put yourself in the same league as lee; an amateur, failing to understand what they're not qualified to understand.

From my observation, you're not really puzzled at all. You're just saying what will get you attention. In other words, you're trolling.

It seems that muso judges otherwise. I'll bow to his superior experience.


what is trolling?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 4:34pm
I await some other commentary. I don't say it is the truth; merely more research. I just love an open mind.

Of course we all know the science is settled; Man knows everything already.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 4:49pm

lee wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 4:34pm:
I await some other commentary. I don't say it is the truth; merely more research. I just love an open mind.

Of course we all know the science is settled; Man knows everything already.


science is never settled, always in a state of flux.

some scientific facts become robustly settled and have very high integrity inertia

Such as CO2 being classified as a greenhouse gas, or humans being responsible for an increase in CO2 concentration in the earths atmosphere.

Scientific Theories are sometimes interchangeable with scientific facts

An example of this is AGW - a very simple scientific fact that confirms that human activities are warming the planet.

Unsettled Science is fun

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 24th, 2013 at 10:30am

lee wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 4:34pm:
I await some other commentary. I don't say it is the truth; merely more research. I just love an open mind.

Of course we all know the science is settled; Man knows everything already.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22uH-7DiRBc

Quote:
Science knows it doesn't know everything; otherwise, it'd stop. But just because science doesn't know everything doesn't mean you can fill in the gaps with whatever fairy tale most appeals to you.
Dara Ó Briain

As far as open minds, acknowledging my own ignorance, I take the broad view:-
Best qualified supporting consensus: ~97%;
Bodies of reputable scientists supporting consensus: 100% and
Level of confidence in consensus: 95-100%.

I haven't bothered with links; I don't have the time and anyone who's genuinely interested should have no difficulty finding sources. "Consensus" is, of course, shorthand for the views of the overwhelming majority.

As I've said before, your beliefs rely on either a conspiracy of improbable proportions or a similarly improbable level of ineptitude.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 26th, 2013 at 4:39pm

“Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.”

― Richard P. Feynman

For the views on consensus of Michael Crichton-

goodreads.com/quotes/tag/scientific-method

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 28th, 2013 at 4:04pm

lee wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 4:34pm:
I await some other commentary. I don't say it is the truth; merely more research. I just love an open mind.


You'll be awaiting a long time.  My dog sometimes picks up rotten things and takes them to the door awaiting praise.

You'll find plenty of rotten things on Watts' site, but I'm not encouraging you in any way to fetch them and drop them here. There comes a point where the weight of lies makes you come to the conclusion that hey! It's not a reputable site.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Emma Peel on Nov 28th, 2013 at 11:19pm
I am totally with Muso and #.

I am no scientist, never claim to be and don't bother too much with all this propaganda.
I don't see the point , frankly.

All I need to do is look  and listen... 

..open my senses , look at the real time events,  ..
and understand ..

we are all in deep doodoo.  :(

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Deathridesahorse on Nov 28th, 2013 at 11:39pm

Emma wrote on Nov 28th, 2013 at 11:19pm:
I am totally with Muso and #.

I am no scientist, never claim to be and don't bother too much with all this propaganda.
I don't see the point , frankly.

All I need to do is look  and listen... 

..open my senses , look at the real time events,  ..
and understand ..

we are all in deep doodoo.  :(

Only if we don't act: we will act,. ... all you have at the moment is captains of the status quo ensuring they understand the best way to bunkify the new paradigm! Translated a into less cynical world-view: it's a complex world... sure it turns but no one said how fast  8-)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Emma Peel on Nov 29th, 2013 at 12:18am
  Deathray  says...."all you have at the moment is captains of the status quo ensuring they understand the best way to bunkify the new paradigm!"

Ah yes , I'd agree with that ...and  said propaganda ..is wholeheartedly supported by our wonderbar leader..!!  >:(

In any case Deathray.. I have to say to you.. it is too late to stop massive harm to the human race... not to mention what's left of the natural world which must exist with us in close proximity. :(

No matter what we do NOW,  the effects of our gross possession of this planet,  will be felt by billions,  for many yrs to come.
I don't know what you expect will happen to save us... it seems to me humans do not have the ability or desire to turn this around.
We have gotten here by our own actions,  ..but unless some extra-terrestrial tech comes to our rescue..or the obscenely rich conglomerates get together and put their greed aside for the benefit of humankind..  we will soon discover we cannot dig ourselves out of the sh!tpit we have created. A pit we are in.. up to our bottom lip.   :( >:(.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 29th, 2013 at 6:31am

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Nov 28th, 2013 at 11:39pm:
Only if we don't act: we will act,. ... all you have at the moment is captains of the status quo ensuring they understand the best way to bunkify the new paradigm! Translated a into less cynical world-view: it's a complex world... sure it turns but no one said how fast  8-)


The best we can do is mitigate.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Deathridesahorse on Nov 29th, 2013 at 7:23am
Yeh, obviously we are still in some kind of poo... it's just totally irrational that their is no plan for transition for example china is taking steps...england and germany have a very visible wind power contribution,... and china has plans for gigawatts of it too come to think of it. China is going to be using ultra high voltage direct current aswell!

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Deathridesahorse on Nov 29th, 2013 at 7:26am

muso wrote on Nov 29th, 2013 at 6:31am:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Nov 28th, 2013 at 11:39pm:
Only if we don't act: we will act,. ... all you have at the moment is captains of the status quo ensuring they understand the best way to bunkify the new paradigm! Translated a into less cynical world-view: it's a complex world... sure it turns but no one said how fast  8-)


The best we can do is mitigate.

Change is certainly afoot!

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Nov 29th, 2013 at 7:29am

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Nov 29th, 2013 at 7:23am:
Yeh, obviously we are still in some kind of poo... it's just totally irrational that their is no plan for transition for example china is taking steps...england and germany have a very visible wind power contribution,... and china has plans for gigawatts of it too come to think of it. China is going to be using ultra high voltage direct current aswell!


Good Lord.

Please hand DRAH back his PC you thief.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Dnarever on Nov 29th, 2013 at 7:41am
Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs

What a load of rubbish, 119,820 years at most.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Deathridesahorse on Nov 29th, 2013 at 8:20am

Dnarever wrote on Nov 29th, 2013 at 7:41am:
Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs

What a load of rubbish, 119,820 years at most.

Someone must've forgot to carry the three...

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 29th, 2013 at 10:40am
And never ever investigate those stories on the forum they were originally posted. Science, Nature whatever. That's what an open mind is about.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Deathridesahorse on Nov 29th, 2013 at 4:54pm

lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2013 at 10:40am:
And never ever investigate those stories on the forum they were originally posted. Science, Nature whatever. That's what an open mind is about.

The trying hard to be the sovereign fascist dictator of the inter webs has rules ay .... ;D ;D  :-?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Emma Peel on Nov 29th, 2013 at 7:46pm

lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2013 at 10:40am:
And never ever investigate those stories on the forum they were originally posted. Science, Nature whatever. That's what an open mind is about.


umm your assumptions expose your naivete.   :)

sigh  ::)  am I brilliant or what ..??  eh eh ?  nudge nudge ..eh wink wink ..   or what ..??  eh??   :)

:)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 30th, 2013 at 9:24am
Yes, what.  :P

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 30th, 2013 at 1:07pm

lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2013 at 10:40am:
And never ever investigate those stories on the forum they were originally posted. Science, Nature whatever. That's what an open mind is about.
Isn't an open mind about all of the evidence? You seem to cherry-pick what you convince yourself supports your beliefs.

Unfortunately for you, you don't convince anyone else.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 30th, 2013 at 2:45pm
And yet if you don't read all the alternatives, are you any better than my supposed cherry-picking?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Deathridesahorse on Nov 30th, 2013 at 3:24pm

lee wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 2:45pm:
And yet if you don't read all the alternatives, are you any better than my supposed cherry-picking?

The world runs on bits of paper hence the regulated market forces around you known as civilisation... ya want a billion word circle jerk on that now do ya????? I for one aint doing your homework  ;)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Deathridesahorse on Nov 30th, 2013 at 3:33pm
** warning to the uninitiated: lee is playing the document shock game whilst conveniently forgetting to mention those little bits of paper that make the civilised world go round called qualifications. HE IS A CON-ARTIST ....  8-)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 30th, 2013 at 4:22pm

lee wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 2:45pm:
And yet if you don't read all the alternatives, are you any better than my supposed cherry-picking?


You read from all credible sources. If a source publishes obvious lies just once, its reputation is tarnished.

Internet blogs are not reputable sources.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Emma Peel on Nov 30th, 2013 at 5:59pm
that was my point .. really. 
What a waste of time and effort..   ::)

But further.. unless one is actually  a scientist directly involved in relevant fields of research..
  one has no need to do so.  :-?
(that 's assuming a scientist  WOULD look at these sites..)

Seems anxiety rules you lee... and you are thus drawn to outlandish extremes to try to protect your paradigm.

you haven't learnt the lesson that you need to, in order to deal with reality.  Waste of YOUR time...  and talents..  and rather annoying.. in that you aren't really saying anything new, nor do you display an understanding of the actual situation.

Just gets a bit tiresome,  you know.?

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Nov 30th, 2013 at 7:08pm
The American Association for the Advancement of Science publishes Science Magazine.

'On the AAAS Climate Resources page, we've assembled reliable resources that could be helpful to a range of users, from government officials to teachers and students and members of the public.'

extract: http://www.aaas.org/news/press_room/issues/

'The sudden drainage of thousands of small lakes on the surface of Antarctic glaciers seems to have triggered the spectacular collapse of the Larsen B ice shelf in March 2012.

Some 3,000 small ponds of liquid water had emerged over the course of a decade on top of glaciers surrounding the…'

extract : http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v503/n7477/full/503441d.html

Nature brands itself as the "International weekly journal of science".

Most studies support AGW, some don't. To me that is hardly cherry-picking a source.

Your choice as to whether you read and maybe learn.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by # on Nov 30th, 2013 at 7:10pm

lee wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 2:45pm:
And yet if you don't read all the alternatives, are you any better than my supposed cherry-picking?
Who has the time to read all sources? Do you pretend to be qualified to understand such complex science? I don't. Judging by the sources you favour, you don't understand.


Emma wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 5:59pm:
...
you haven't learnt the lesson that you need to, in order to deal with reality.  Waste of YOUR time...  and talents..  and rather annoying.. in that you aren't really saying anything new, nor do you display an understanding of the actual situation.

Just gets a bit tiresome,  you know.?
+1

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Nov 30th, 2013 at 7:54pm
Lee,  The reason you are cherry picking is the fact that you are getting these links and the unique interpretations from Internet blogs. I've seen it before. You scratch below the surface slightly and you see that the paper isn't saying what it is purported to say.

Anyway, here is a good site for you. This guy sells immortality pills.


Quote:
Immortality Device is believed to allow humans to stay physically young forever. US PATENT # 5,989,178.


As you can see, it references a credible source - The US Patent Office. Now we all know that if you live forever, you might start to look a bit old, but don't worry because on the same website, you can buy "Gorgeous pills"

Quote:
The Gorgeous pill will make you prettier and more beautiful every morning.  You will gradually look PERFECT, even more gorgeous than super models.  You will one day reach PHYSICAL PERFECTION!!  It is strong enough to change the shape of your facial bones. No more plastic surgery!  No more implants. 


http://www.alexchiu.com/

Again, I'm not sourcing Internet Blogs, I'm actually referring to the US Patent Office, and if you just check out this site and look it up (and waste several hours of your life) it will become patently obvious to you.
http://www.uspto.gov/

Enjoy.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Deathridesahorse on Dec 1st, 2013 at 2:05pm
Like i said ----> DOCUMENT SHOCK !oops, let's forget how regulated markets deal with the flim-flammers.. bye bye lee  :'(

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Dec 1st, 2013 at 3:05pm
Alas I have been destroyed by your wit. Even if you are only half-right.

ttfn ;)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Dec 1st, 2013 at 4:07pm
I'll tell you what, give me one such gem and I'll check it out for you.

I can almost guarantee that it will either be:

1. perfectly true but out of context or irrelevant
2. A total fabrication based on a novel interpretation of the laws of physics (eg Idso et al)
3. True to a point, but missing a few salient points (half truths)

I won't refer to Skeptical Science or any other blog in my reply. As I said before, I'm quite qualified to answer based on my own knowledge, except for Marine Biology or some other vaguely related areas. 

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Deathridesahorse on Dec 1st, 2013 at 4:41pm

lee wrote on Dec 1st, 2013 at 3:05pm:
Alas I have been destroyed by your wit. Even if you are only half-right.

ttfn ;)

It took no wit at all, you're a scammer telling everyone that all propaganda should be read and listened to at the possible exclusion of qualified material. You are trying to make people forget the methods put in place by the regulated markets themselves to deal with flim flam artists like yourself: that being recognised qualification aka QUALITY CONTROL. if you keep trying you'll find some groupies i suppose lol not  8-)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Deathridesahorse on Dec 1st, 2013 at 4:44pm
What is networking? What is scientific method? GO THE ????... INTERWEBS!???!  ;D

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by lee on Dec 2nd, 2013 at 12:43am
I'll take a leaf out of muso's playbook -

't took no wit at all'

Yes we understand.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Deathridesahorse on Dec 2nd, 2013 at 12:58am

lee wrote on Dec 2nd, 2013 at 12:43am:
I'll take a leaf out of muso's playbook -

't took no wit at all'

Yes we understand.

Yer up for a circle-jerk are ya?  ;)

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Dec 2nd, 2013 at 1:43pm
DRAH - That was offensive if it's what I think it means. Next time, no warning.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Emma Peel on Dec 2nd, 2013 at 5:12pm
well Muso 
??
your knowledge is obviously broader than mine..
if you are 'suggesting'  something salacious and prurient about DEATHRAY's post  ..well I find your reply unnecessary  AND offensive.  :-?


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by greggerypeccary on Dec 2nd, 2013 at 5:17pm

muso wrote on Dec 2nd, 2013 at 1:43pm:
DRAH - That was offensive if it's what I think it means. Next time, no warning.




It has a couple of meanings:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=circlejerk

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Dec 2nd, 2013 at 5:22pm
Hmmm. You get an education around here.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Deathridesahorse on Dec 2nd, 2013 at 5:23pm

Emma wrote on Dec 2nd, 2013 at 5:12pm:
well Muso 
??
your knowledge is obviously broader than mine..
if you are 'suggesting'  something salacious and prurient about DEATHRAY's post  ..well I find your reply unnecessary  AND offensive.  :-?

No need to back me up Emma,.. I was being rude, crude and very unattractive but that lee ID is just doing circles trying to own address space akin to Murdoch media owning the public space so democracy cannot have a discussion.... Simples

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Emma Peel on Dec 2nd, 2013 at 6:03pm
but Death?? 
surely you were referring to the  2nd definition.. provided by Gretchens link..??  :)   

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Dec 2nd, 2013 at 6:38pm
Let's drop it and speak about Environmental issues.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Dec 2nd, 2013 at 7:10pm

muso wrote on Dec 2nd, 2013 at 6:38pm:
Let's drop it and speak about Environmental issues.


good idea


Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Dec 2nd, 2013 at 7:25pm
This is what I like to see.

Atmospheric problem emerges - robust scientific investigation ensures and a verifiable causal theory is developed.

Political input on a Global level occurs and action on CFCs is taken relatively promptly.



Now as we all know, CFCs release is a different "animal" than CO2 emissions and thus the response was markedly different. There were alternatives to CFCs, the industry was smaller, far less political and corporate fascist power at stake

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Dec 2nd, 2013 at 7:48pm
- and the depletion of stratospheric ozone has also had a cooling effect in Antarctica, so we're back on topic.

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by muso on Dec 4th, 2013 at 11:37am
A magnificent view of the Transantarctic mountains (NASA)
http://www.nasa.gov/content/view-of-the-transantarctic-mountains/#.Up6GTkOa4dV
transantarctic_mountains_0.jpg (93 KB | 36 )

Title: Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Post by Chimp_Logic on Dec 4th, 2013 at 11:02pm
43% of the Antarctic territory is under an Australian flag - a land area almost the size of Australia itself


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