This is terrible - Ladies and Gentlemen, key pieces of evidence have mysteriously disappeared and must be found!

http://media2.apnonline.com.au/img/media/images/2013/10/03/RMB_03-10-2013_ROP_02_ROK021013cses3_fct1024x772x19_t460.jpg

Recently Baron and Freediver have made the claim that Muhammad had sex with a prepubescent girl, and they *ASSURED* me they had the evidence to back it up:


freediver wrote on Nov 13^th, 2013 at 12:57pm:

No Gandalf. It is based on the fact that he had sex with a pre-pubescent 9 year old girl. I presented the relevant Islamic texts in the child brides thread

Did you FD? Relevant islamic texts that prove that "the fact the had sex with a prepubescent girl?

Of course! As FD explains:


freediver wrote on Nov 14^th, 2013 at 2:00pm:

I presented some a few days ago in the child brides thread. I have reposted it several times. So far you have not even responded to it.

Now over to the child bride thread, FD helpfully quotes this "reposted several times" post of his that contains the evidence that proves "the fact" that Muhammad had sex with a prepubescent girl:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1379120057/169#169

As it turns out "some" evidence is actually one single hadith that states:


Quote:

The Prophet () was screening me with his Rida' (garment covering the upper part of the body) while I was looking at the Ethiopians who were playing in the courtyard of the mosque. (I continued watching) till I was satisfied. So you may deduce from this event how a little girl (who has not reached the age of puberty) who is eager to enjoy amusement should be treated in this respect.

Oh dear. Surely theres some mistake here right? All this says is that Muhammad was screening his (presumably prepubescent) wife from public view. No saucy descriptions of intercourse, nothing even remotely suggesting that they were having, or had been having sex anywhere. Damn, what happened? WHO STOLE FD'S EVIDENCE???!!!

Obviously I was very concerned for FD - having his evidence go missing like that. So I inquired:


polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 14^th, 2013 at 11:37pm:

am I supposed to be looking at some sort of proof that Muhammad had sex with a prepubescent girl somewhere amongst that FD?

freediver wrote on Nov 15^th, 2013 at 12:34pm:

Yes.

:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

Clearly FD thinks that the evidence is still there - not realising the truth that it had GONE MISSING!!!


As if thats not bad enough - Baron has experienced the same tragedy - his evidence has also gone missing.


Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 15^th, 2013 at 10:41am:

You have one hadith where a 6 year old girl said she reached puberty which you believe and nobody else does, there are other sahih hadith that say she had not reached puberty which you conveniently disregard to justify your pedophile profit.

Poor Baron - its actually happened to him twice:


Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 14^th, 2013 at 4:43pm:

Aisha got her first menses on the journey to the very first Hajj at around 15 years of age

Clearly he was so upset that this key evidence had gone missing that when I requested the evidence, he was just too devastated to even respond.  :'(

Oh fellow islamophobes - please think of the humanity here. Help you fellow islamophobes find their missing evidence!

This is terrible!  How can such momentous evidence go missing?   We must organise a search party immediately!

I volunteer to go plumbing the depths of FD and the Baron's mucky brains in order to find this evidence!  Wish me luck, Gandalf!  I'll leave this safety line here, OK?  If you feel me tugging on it, pull me back up, immediately!

http://assets2.heart.co.uk/2011/11/well-rescue-1300193243-article-0.jpg

:D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D ;D

few people would defend a man in his 50's who marries a girl aged 6-9 years old.

only muslims and paedophiles.

Who takes freediver serious anyway.

I would think freedivers word would be good enough for me!

Especially relating to that Muslim pedophile.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 19^th, 2013 at 4:28pm:

few people would defend a man in his 50's who marries a girl aged 6-9 years old. only muslims and paedophiles.

Making excuses for the missing evidence?  What a spineless apologetic!

Gods!  It is so dark down here, I'm not surprised stuff has gone missing.  There appears to be no sense to the filing system!   :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D

Redmond Neck wrote on Nov 19^th, 2013 at 4:58pm:

I would think freedivers word would be good enough for me! Especially relating to that Muslim pedophile.

I would think you need your head checked.

muhammad only had sex with a little girl, because it's a great lesson for all mankind: if she's nine and you think she's mature enough, you can. (or something equally stupid was the muslim response. on this board recently)

Brothers and sisters let's stop being so querulous. Everyone knows that Muhammmmar and ‘Ā’ishah bint Abī Bakr sat on the end of the bed at Mo's place and played monopoly. Sex didn't occupy the mind of Muhammmmar at all. That is an unmitigated fact.

salad in wrote on Nov 20^th, 2013 at 3:38pm:

Brothers and sisters let's stop being so querulous. Everyone knows that Muhammmmar and ‘Ā’ishah bint Abī Bakr sat on the end of the bed at Mo's place and played monopoly. Sex didn't occupy the mind of Muhammmmar at all. That is an unmitigated fact.

Salad, don't be obtuse. The evidence irrefutably proves that Muhammad was a lustful filthy pedophile who was definitely banging a prebubescent girl....

we are just having a bit of technical difficulty actually locating that evidence at the moment.  :-[

Quote:

Traditional sources state that Aisha was married to Muhammad at the age of six, but she stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, when the marriage was consummated with Muhammad, then 53, in Medina;[8][9][10] with the exception of al-Tabari who records that she was ten years old.[11]

[8] ^ Jump up to: a b Karen Armstrong, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, Harper San Francisco, 1992, p. 157.
[9] ^ Jump up to: a b Sahih al-Bukhari, 5:58:234, 5:58:236, 7:62:64, 7:62:65, 7:62:88, Sahih Muslim, 8:3309, 8:3310, 8:3311, 41:4915, Sunan Abu Dawood, 41:4917
[10] ^ Jump up to: a b Tabari, Volume 9, Page 131; Tabari, Volume 7, Page 7
[11] ^ Jump up to: a b c d e f g h i D. A. Spellberg, Politics, Gender, and the Islamic Past: the Legacy of A'isha bint Abi Bakr, Columbia University Press, 1994, p. 40
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha


Quote:

Critics allege that Aisha was just six years old when she was betrothed to Muhammad, himself in his 50s, and only nine when the marriage was consummated. They base this on a saying attributed to Aisha herself (Sahih Bukhari volume 5, book 58, number 234), and the debate on this issue is further complicated by the fact that some Muslims believe this to be a historically accurate account. Although most Muslims would not consider marrying off their nine-year-old daughters, those who accept this saying argue that since the Qur'an states that marriage is void unless entered into by consenting adults, Aisha must have entered puberty early.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth

Relying on secondary sources?  Hearsay isn't much good as evidence!   :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D

By the way, doesn't "...most Muslims would not consider marrying off their nine-year-old daughters," run counter to the claims being made by some here about Muslims?   :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D

|dev|null wrote on Nov 21^st, 2013 at 10:40am:

Relying on secondary sources?  Hearsay isn't much good as evidence!   :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D By the way, doesn't "...most Muslims would not consider marrying off their nine-year-old daughters," run counter to the claims being made by some here about Muslims?   :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D

Here we go with the RETARD yet again.

We aren't talking about "most" Muslims are we retard?
heresay?  I haven't hear anything.

In fact hard to post a fact you'd say wasn't heresay since I wasn't alive then nor was I a friend of Mohamed.  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Was that "heresay", heresy or hearsay?

You are getting desperate.  Your nose out of joint over your "American Indians"?  Must be the reason why you're trying to open a new line of attack!   ;D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D

[quote]Critics allege that Aisha was just six years old when she was betrothed to Muhammad, himself in his 50s, and only nine when the marriage was consummated. They base this on a saying attributed to Aisha herself[/quote]

And according to Baron, its ok to trust Aisha regarding the age she claims she was when she got married - but we totally can't trust her regarding the age she claims she was when she went through puberty.

Islamophobia - definitely nothing to do with cherry-picking the evidence  :D

|dev|null wrote on Nov 21^st, 2013 at 1:09pm:

Was that "heresay", heresy or hearsay? You are getting desperate.  Your nose out of joint over your "American Indians"?  Must be the reason why you're trying to open a new line of attack!   ;D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D

happy with any of my stances thanks...  you're the retard.

http://www.fourwinds10.net/resources/uploads/images/stupidity.jpg

Grendel wrote on Nov 21^st, 2013 at 9:51am:

Quote: Traditional sources state that Aisha was married to Muhammad at the age of six, but she stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, when the marriage was consummated with Muhammad, then 53, in Medina;[8][9][10] with the exception of al-Tabari who records that she was ten years old.[11] [8] ^ Jump up to: a b Karen Armstrong, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, Harper San Francisco, 1992, p. 157. [9] ^ Jump up to: a b Sahih al-Bukhari, 5:58:234, 5:58:236, 7:62:64, 7:62:65, 7:62:88, Sahih Muslim, 8:3309, 8:3310, 8:3311, 41:4915, Sunan Abu Dawood, 41:4917 [10] ^ Jump up to: a b Tabari, Volume 9, Page 131; Tabari, Volume 7, Page 7 [11] ^ Jump up to: a b c d e f g h i D. A. Spellberg, Politics, Gender, and the Islamic Past: the Legacy of A'isha bint Abi Bakr, Columbia University Press, 1994, p. 40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha [quote]Critics allege that Aisha was just six years old when she was betrothed to Muhammad, himself in his 50s, and only nine when the marriage was consummated. They base this on a saying attributed to Aisha herself (Sahih Bukhari volume 5, book 58, number 234), and the debate on this issue is further complicated by the fact that some Muslims believe this to be a historically accurate account. Although most Muslims would not consider marrying off their nine-year-old daughters, those who accept this saying argue that since the Qur'an states that marriage is void unless entered into by consenting adults, Aisha must have entered puberty early.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth[/quote]
people who live in glass houses eh gandalf...   ::)
now do try not to cherry pick.

Grendel wrote on Nov 21^st, 2013 at 7:17pm:

...Aisha must have entered puberty early...

Its not early, but rather, considered within normal bounds by modern Western medical experts.


It is known that females from the Middle East and Africa generally reach puberty early than other people.





Quote:

Primary schoolgirls getting pregnant aged 10 Primary schoolgirls as young as 10 are getting pregnant, according to new figures released under the Freedom of Information Act. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/7186620/Primary-schoolgirls-getting-pregnant-aged-10.html

Quote:

Call for sex education in primary school http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2011/s3190696.htm

Grendel wrote on Nov 21^st, 2013 at 7:17pm:

people who live in glass houses eh gandalf...   Roll Eyes now do try not to cherry pick.

What point are you making Grendel?

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 21^st, 2013 at 9:23pm:

Grendel wrote on Nov 21st, 2013 at 7:17pm: people who live in glass houses eh gandalf...   Roll Eyes now do try not to cherry pick. What point are you making Grendel?

Something only known unto him?   ::)

True Colours wrote on Nov 21^st, 2013 at 9:18pm:

Grendel wrote on Nov 21st, 2013 at 7:17pm: ...Aisha must have entered puberty early... Its not early, but rather, considered within normal bounds by modern Western medical experts. It is known that females from the Middle East and Africa generally reach puberty early than other people. Quote: Primary schoolgirls getting pregnant aged 10 Primary schoolgirls as young as 10 are getting pregnant, according to new figures released under the Freedom of Information Act. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/7186620/Primary-schoolgirls-getting-pregnant-aged-10.html [quote]  Call for sex education in primary school http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2011/s3190696.htm

[/quote]
please don't quote me as saying things I did not...

muslims love their child sex, after all muhammad taught the great lesson: a nine year old girl has gone through her many transitional years of childhood / puberty / adolescence / maturity adulthood.

If some old perve muslim decrees she is ready for full blown sexual relations with a muslim degenerate five times her age, no one can argue. allah delivered the baby to muhammad in one of his (dreams).

Allah the satanic god of pedophilia. muhammad the deviate who performed the child abuse / sex.

Still some people keep making excuses for muslim's uncivilised decadence in 2013.

There is certainly evidence missing: there is no proof that Aisha, at nine years of age, had  completely experienced those many formative years of childhood / puberty / adolescence / then maturing into a fully functioning adult.

This missing evidence is proof that muhammad was a pedophile.

moses wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 10:44am:

This missing evidence is proof that muhammad was a pedophile.

Ahh I see how it works now - proving a claim is all about the absense of evidence, when all these centuries western scientific thought was based on the opposite approach. Better start rewriting all the textbooks moses  :P

Grendel wrote on Nov 21^st, 2013 at 7:15pm:

|dev|null wrote on Nov 21st, 2013 at 1:09pm: Was that "heresay", heresy or hearsay? You are getting desperate.  Your nose out of joint over your "American Indians"?  Must be the reason why you're trying to open a new line of attack!   ;D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D happy with any of my stances thanks...  you're the retard. http://www.fourwinds10.net/resources/uploads/images/stupidity.jpg

Grendel's answer to everything: BLUSTER!   :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D

Got nothin' I see retard... just the usual sniping and trolling eh.   :D

gandalf... might do you good to actually read what people write and their links.

gandalf wrote:
Quote:

Ahh I see how it works now - proving a claim is all about the absense of evidence, when all these centuries western scientific thought was based on the opposite approach. Better start rewriting all the textbooks moses

You got it in one gandalf, it all comes down evidence, or the lack of it, to prove / disprove a claim.

The absence of proof that a nine year old girl had completely altered her physical and psychological attributes (a process that takes many years) to the point where she could be considered a mature sexual partner for a man five times her age, establishes one thing and one thing only: muhammad was a pedophile

Grendel wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 1:29pm:

gandalf... might do you good to actually read what people write and their links.

You mean the wiki and guardian articles that provide not a shred of supporting evidence for the claim that Aisha was prepubescent?

Grendel wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 1:29pm:

Got nothin' I see retard... just the usual sniping and trolling eh.   :D

See your usual resort to insult and bluster...    :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D

Blow any harder and you'd be classified as a Cyclone!   :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 21^st, 2013 at 9:28am:

The evidence irrefutably proves that Muhammad was a lustful filthy pedophile who was definitely banging a prebubescent girl.... we are just having a bit of technical difficulty actually locating that evidence at the moment.  :-[/quote] Sorry for not being around recently Gandalf,i had a few dollars on the trifecta in the Melbourne cup had a huge win and took another holiday. When we look at the so called evidence you produced claiming Aisha reached puberty, you only have this verse- Quote: I had seen  my parents following Islam since i attained the age of puberty. www.sunnah.com/bukhari/8/124 Aisha's father was one of the first to convert to that horse manure Mohammad was selling called Islam, you claimed Aisha reached puberty before age 6 which only a muslim or an Islamic apologist with an IQ of less than 80 could believe. 8-) Aisha also said this- [quote]Since i reached the age when i could remember things, i have seen my parents following Islam. www.sunnah.com/bukhari/39/8

So what age was Aisha when she reached the age she could remember things, is that the same age as puberty?


Quote:

I never remembered my parents believing in any religion other than Islam. I dont remember a single day passing without our being visited by that dirty old pedo claiming to be allah's messenger www.sunnah.com/bukhari/63/131

These sahih hadeeth say Aisha saw her parents following Islam from the age she could remember things.

Ali Sina, an ex muslim from Iran (he quotes Bukhari which the shia reject so what sect was he from?) wrote this about Aisha and puberty which uses all Islamic texts to show Mo porked his prepubescent child bride.
Ali has done a fairly comprehensive job, the evidence shows Mo was Pedo.
www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha_and_Puberty

Those who are ignorant about Islam could always ask for a second opinion on wiki islam or Mo being pedo from those filthy murtad's and apostates at the council of ex muslims forum.
www.councilofexmuslims.com

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 4:09pm:

you claimed Aisha reached puberty before age 6

Muslims do not claim that Aishah reached puberty at 6. She obviously had definitely not reached puberty then because she did not move into the prophet's household when she was 6.

True Colours wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 4:26pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 4:09pm: you claimed Aisha reached puberty before age 6 Muslims do not claim that Aishah reached puberty at 6. She obviously had definitely not reached puberty then because she did not move into the prophet's household when she was 6.

Gandalf claims bukhari/8/124 is evidence for when Aisha reached puberty.

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 4:09pm:

www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha_and_Puberty

The site is full of misinformation and mistranslations linked to Jewish-funded websites - probably run by Mossad.

An example is a translation of a hadeeth that quotes Aishah saying hat she had not reached puberty. However, puberty is never mentioned in the original Arabic version of the hadeeth.

The term "jaariyah" in Arabic simply means youthful female. In Arab culture at the time, anybody under the age of 40 was considered to be youthful.

If one looks at the context of the hadeeth, one would come to the conclusion that Aisha had reached puberty at the time.

Why?

The hadeeth says that Aishah was screened. In Islam, pre-pubertal girls are not required to be screened or covered, and neither are elderly women required to do so.


Quote:

‘Aa’ishah, narrated that Asma’ bint Abi Bakr entered upon the Messenger of God (peace and blessings of God be upon him) wearing a thin dress. The Messenger of God turned away from her and said, “O Asmaa! When a woman reaches the age of puberty, nothing should be seen of her except this and this” – and he pointed to his face and hands. - Abu Dawood

It is a general principle of Islam that a person is treated as child until they reach puberty, from which age they must perform all the obligatory tasks such as women covering themselves in the presence of unrelated men:

Quote:

“The Pen has been lifted from three: from the child until he reaches puberty, from the sleeper until he wakes up, and from the one who has lost his mind until he recovers.” - Abu Dawood

So obviously when Aisha talks about how a "jaariyah" is being treated, she is talking about a young woman who has reached puberty and is in the full flower of womanhood, not some pre-pubescent child or an elderly woman.



Why are you relying on distorted mistranslations Freediver? Is it because you are an idiot or is because you are trying to fool people?

Hi Baron  :)

Any luck on finding that elusive proof that Aisha had her first menses at 15?

Or how about those "other sahih hadith that say she had not reached puberty"?

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 2:29pm:

Grendel wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 1:29pm: gandalf... might do you good to actually read what people write and their links. You mean the wiki and guardian articles that provide not a shred of supporting evidence for the claim that Aisha was prepubescent?

I don't consider a girl of 10 who has her periods an adult...  do you?
Be that as it may.
I consider both articles to be of interest on the subject.
BTW there is no proof anywhere they shows she was or was not "prepubescent" as you seem to demand.
Have you proof for your claims?
BTW I've never called Mohammed a pedophile so don't give me any attitude about it ok. I get enough attitude from the retard family.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 21^st, 2013 at 9:28am:

Salad, don't be obtuse. The evidence irrefutably proves that Muhammad was a lustful filthy pedophile who was definitely banging

I am not defending FDs claims, but let me ask you, do you suggest it was ok to marry the girl, even if she was 9? And do you then worship this act as holy?  ::)

True Colours wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 4:36pm:

person is treated as child until they reach puberty, from which age they must perform all the obligatory [b]tasks such as women covering themselves in the presence of unrelated men:

:-X unbelievable, I mean, unbelievable lying believers...

As-salam alaykum brothers and sisters. The matter of the union between muhammmmmar and alicia has caused much debate. Let it be known to all that the child was taken into marriage and bedded by muhammmmmar at a tender age.


Quote:

The thought of an old man becoming aroused by a child is one of the most disturbing thoughts that makes us cringe as it reminds us of pedophilia and the most despicable people. It is difficult to accept that the Holy Prophet married Aisha when she was 6-years-old and consummated his marriage with her when she was 9. He was then, 54 years old. Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310: 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old. Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65 Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)' Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). Some Muslims claim that it was Abu Bakr who approached Muhammad asking him to marry his daughter. This is of course not true and here is the proof. Sahih Bukhari 7.18 Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

I am Saladin; the Expected One, the Right Guided One. I knoweth all things. The story of the two people involved in this sordid affair is endorsed by me and so carries a certain cachet. I do hope that some people aren't suggesting that little alicia was guilty of coquettishness. A 6-year-old would not understand such behaviour.

I have spoken.

Grendel wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 9:15pm:

I don't consider a girl of 10 who has her periods an adult...  do you?

No, but thats an entirely different matter. I'm debating the point about whether or not the Prophet had sex with a prepubescent girl. Baron and FD claim he did based on absolutely no evidence - despite their assurances there was evidence.


Grendel wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 9:15pm:

BTW there is no proof anywhere they shows she was or was not "prepubescent" as you seem to demand.

Burden of proof. FD and Baron (and the rest of the islamophobes) are making the claim he was having sex with a prepbbuscent girl. Its their claim to prove, not mine.


Grendel wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 9:15pm:

Have you proof for your claims?

not my claim to prove  :)


Grendel wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 9:15pm:

BTW I've never called Mohammed a pedophile so don't give me any attitude about it ok.

No attitude intended - but apologies if I came across that way

Torpedo wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 12:07am:

I am not defending FDs claims, but let me ask you, do you suggest it was ok to marry the girl, even if she was 9?

This is what people always fail to understand - this was not Muhammad the lustful dirty old man looking for some action - this was Muhammad the statesman performing a political act. Muhammad wanted her father to succeed him, and boosting his leadership credentials through marriage was seen as very important. Thats what statesmen have done from time immemorial - forge alliances, boost existing alliances and secure loyalty within society through marriage. As for her being 6 - Muhammad was already 50, and no doubt well above the average life expectency. He simply didn't have time to wait around until she was 20.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 9:59am:

Grendel wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 9:15pm: I don't consider a girl of 10 who has her periods an adult...  do you? No, but thats an entirely different matter. I'm debating the point about whether or not the Prophet had sex with a prepubescent girl. Baron and FD claim he did based on absolutely no evidence - despite their assurances there was evidence.

Tis just you that brought up the prepubescent gear whilst dancing on the head of the pin.  In your mind, if there was grass on the pitch therefore he was no pedo. 

Your prophet then is pure.

Told you the way out of your dilemma and idiotic tap dancing, you just need to accept that by modern western standards he was a pedo but cannot be judged by those standards as he is a product of a different time.

Frankly your limbo act is looking a bit ragged. 


pe·do·phil·ia
noun \ˌpe-də-ˈfi-lē-ə, ˈpē-\ 

: sexual feelings or activities that involve children

Full Definition of PEDOPHILIA

:  sexual perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pedophilia

True Colours wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 4:36pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 4:09pm: www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha_and_Puberty The site is full of misinformation and mistranslations linked to Jewish-funded websites - probably run by Mossad. Why are you relying on distorted mistranslations Freediver? Is it because you are an idiot or is because you are trying to fool people?

Your own Islamic websites state Aisha had not reached puberty, do you expect a rational person to believe your lies or what an Islamic website says about Aisha not reaching puberty?


Quote:

So you may deduce from this event how a little girl who has not reached the age of puberty www.sunnah.com/bukhari/67/169

Quote:

The playing with dolls and other similar images is forbidden,but it was allowed for Aisha at that time,as she was a little girl not yet reached the age of puberty www.sunnah.com/bukhari/78/157

Your own Islamic sources say Aisha had not reached puberty, does sunnah.com have a link to Quran.com at the top of the page?

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 5:26pm:

Hi Baron  :) Any luck on finding that elusive proof that Aisha had her first menses at 15? Or how about those "other sahih hadith that say she had not reached puberty"?

Yes and i have posted it numerous times, you might ignore the evidence from your own Islamic websites i doubt others will.

Grendel wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 9:15pm:

I don't consider a girl of 10 who has her periods an adult...  do you?

What does it matter your opinion or my opinion?

What does science say?


Quote:

Adult Biologically, an adult is a human being or other organism that has reached sexual maturity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult

If you want to talk about mental maturity, puberty is also the age at which human beings develop the understand of right and wrong - there is a defacto recognition of pubertal age as being the point of adult responsibility in our legal system:


Quote:

Age of criminal responsibility in Australia In the context of Australian law, doli incapax acts as a rebuttable presumption for children aged at least 10 but less than 14 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_criminal_responsibility_in_Australia

Datalife wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 10:40am:

Tis just you that brought up the prepubescent gear whilst dancing on the head of the pin.  In your mind, if there was grass on the pitch therefore he was no pedo. Your prophet then is pure. Told you the way out of your dilemma and idiotic tap dancing, you just need to accept that by modern western standards he was a pedo but cannot be judged by those standards as he is a product of a different time. Frankly your limbo act is looking a bit ragged.

Look data, I would be perfectly fine with people saying "yeah she may have been post-pubescent - I can't really prove that she wasn't - but either way its immoral to have sex with a 9 year old". No problem whatsoever. That would be a great place for all sides to say "we agree to disagree".

But Baron and FD simply will not leave it there - they are the ones who continually keep bringing up the puberty thing and saying she was definitely prepubescent and we have the evidence to prove it. Just look at Baron's last response - still flogging that dead horse, pretending he has provided the evidence when he hasn't. No doubt if and when FD ever comes back he will continue insisting that a hadith describing Aisha being veiled by Muhammad somehow proves they were having sex (go figure).

Its not really about a moral argument - this is not about me dancing on a pinhead to justify having sex with a young girl - its about being intellectually honest about a simply historical fact. And the fact is, Baron and FD blinded by their hatred of islam, can't accept their glaring dishonesty about this rather simple point of historical fact: namely they keep insisting Muhammad had sex with a prepubescent girl, but have not a shred of evidence to back it up.

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 10:44am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 5:26pm: Hi Baron  :) Any luck on finding that elusive proof that Aisha had her first menses at 15? Or how about those "other sahih hadith that say she had not reached puberty"? Yes and i have posted it numerous times, you might ignore the evidence from your own Islamic websites i doubt others will.

You only posted the same wiki-islam flawed logic about her possessing dolls - which I have thoroughly debunked before.

You have never produced anything at all to back up your claim that she had her first menses at 15. Not even wiki-islam is touching that one.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 2:10pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 10:44am: polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 5:26pm: Hi Baron  :) Any luck on finding that elusive proof that Aisha had her first menses at 15? Or how about those "other sahih hadith that say she had not reached puberty"? Yes and i have posted it numerous times, you might ignore the evidence from your own Islamic websites i doubt others will. You only posted the same wiki-islam flawed logic about her possessing dolls - which I have thoroughly debunked before. You have never produced anything at all to back up your claim that she had her first menses at 15. Not even wiki-islam is touching that one.

You have debunked nothing, if you think you have debunked the dolls then try selling your horse manure to the ex muslims at the council of ex muslims forum and post a link back here in this thread if they buy your nonsense.
www.councilofexmuslims.com
If the council of ex muslims is a muslim hating website then explain how 'debunker" a Saudi muslim was voted poster of the month.

Here is the hadith that mentions Aisha's first menses, you claimed wiki islam is not touching that one yet anyone who clicks on the wiki  islam link will see they do mention it,what do they say?

Quote:

We set out to perform Hajj..and when we reached Sarif i got my menses. Pedo profit said- Have you got your menses Aisha- yes Pedo profit-This is a thing allah has ordained for you. www.sunnah.com/bukhari/6/1

Does Mo say to all his wives every time they have their menses-This is what allah has ordained for you?

From wiki islam who you claim will not touch exactly what,do they mention the hadith cited above from an Islamic website?

Quote:

Conclusion- It is clear that Aisha was below the age of puberty at the age of 14 (When Mo raped pillaged and plundered the Jews known as the Banu Mustaliq) or at 15 with the Ethiopian slaves incident,and had her first menses at the age of 16 during the journey for Hajj. We know Mo the pedo banged her when she was 9 and the average age of menarche is 12-13. It is without doubt that Muhammad had sex with a child below the age of puberty How many times has this link appeared in this thread?www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha_and_Puberty

You might ignore the evidence i post and pretend it does not exist i doubt others reading this will.

True Colours wrote:
Quote:

Adult Biologically, an adult is a human being or other organism that has reached sexual maturity.

Maturity Noun:The period of time in your life after your physical growth has stopped and you are fully developed.

Let's see T.C. are you implying that Aisha, at nine years of age, had  completely experienced those many formative years of childhood / puberty / adolescence / then maturing into a fully developed adult?

That in  nine short years Aisha had completely altered her physical and psychological attributes (a process that takes years) to the point where she could be considered a mature, fully developed sexual partner for a man five times her age?

There is no proof that Aisha had undergone this transformation from child to fully matured adult.

At best, muslims and their apologists denials and outright lies, hinge on the pathetic argument that nine year old Aisha had entered puberty.


You also wrote:

Quote:

Age of criminal responsibility in Australia In the context of Australian law, doli incapax acts as a rebuttable presumption for children aged at least 10 but less than 14

Do you understand what you have posted T.C.?


Quote:

Age of criminal responsibility in Australia The age of criminal responsibility in Australia is the age below which a child is deemed incapable of having committed a criminal offence. In legal terms, it is referred to as a defense of infancy. All States of Australia have adopted a uniform age of criminal responsibility. Doli incapax refers to a presumption that a child is "incapable of crime" under legislation or common law. Or rather, the presumption that a child cannot form mens rea as they do not yet have a sufficient understanding between "right and wrong". In the context of Australian law, doli incapax acts as a rebuttable presumption for children aged at least 10 but less than 14.

Quote:

Rebuttable presumption: Both in common law and in civil law, a rebuttable presumption (in Latin, praesumptio iuris tantum) is an assumption made by a court, one that is taken to be true unless someone comes forward to contest it and prove otherwise. For example, a defendant in a criminal case is presumed innocent until proved guilty. A rebuttable presumption is often associated with prima facie evidence. Rebuttable presumptions in criminal law are somewhat controversial in that they do effectively reverse the presumption of innocence in some cases. For example, in the United Kingdom, Section 75 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 makes several rebuttable presumptions about mens rea and consent to sexual activity. In some cases however, a rebuttable presumption can also work in favor of the accused. For instance, in Australia, there is a rebuttable presumption that a child aged at least 10 but less than 14 is incapable of committing a criminal act. Source

The Commonwealth and every State and Territory clearly specify that under 10 years of age, an individual is deemed a child, rebuttable presumption takes effect 10 years to under 14, the person is only deemed an adult at age 18

So you see T.C. a nine year old is definitely a child, being under 10. From 10 to 14 rebuttable presumption takes effect, the person is still considered a child. You are not adjudged to be adult until age 18.

So in 2013 in the enlightened west, a nine year old girl is a child.

muhammad engaged in sexual deviancy (sex with a child) or as everybody keeps saying: muhammad was a pedophile

As usual, in the effort to attack anything Muslim, I think many here have lost sight of the purpose of the thread.  Freediver and the Baron claimed they had evidence.  Freediver even cited a thread where that evidence had been posted.   It wasn't there.  Freediver lied.   ::)

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 2:45pm:

Here is the hadith that mentions Aisha's first menses, you claimed wiki islam is not touching that one yet anyone who clicks on the wiki  islam link will see they do mention it,what do they say?

I see. Now if you could just provide some proof that this is her first menses...


Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 2:45pm:

Does Mo say to all his wives every time they have their menses-This is what allah has ordained for you?

If he's accompanying them on their first Hajj, quite likely.

Its pretty obvious what this is about Baron - Aisha has her heart set on performing the Hajj, but on the way gets her period. This hadith is instructions on what women can and can't do on the hajj when menstruating:

"So do what all the pilgrims do with the exception of the Tawaf (Circumambulation) round the Ka`ba"

There is nothing in this that suggests this was her first menses. This is you clutching at straws as usual.


Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 2:45pm:

You have debunked nothing, if you think you have debunked the dolls then try selling your horse manure to the ex muslims

Well you never did have an answer to the fact that there is no mention of her playing with the dolls - which is the only thing mentioned that is prohibited. You were never able to provide any evidence that mere possession of dolls is prohibited for post-pubescent girls.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 9:59am:

Grendel wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 9:15pm: I don't consider a girl of 10 who has her periods an adult...  do you? No, but thats an entirely different matter. I'm debating the point about whether or not the Prophet had sex with a prepubescent girl. really I thought the claim was he was a pedophile? Baron and FD claim he did based on absolutely no evidence - despite their assurances there was evidence. Well it seems many muslims think she was indeed very young and quite probably prepubescent.  Even the islamic texts they quote as proof of this...  since none of us were alive then...  seem to indicate this belief. Grendel wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 9:15pm: BTW there is no proof anywhere that shows she was or was not "prepubescent" as you seem to demand. Burden of proof. FD and Baron (and the rest of the islamophobes) are making the claim he was having sex with a prepbbuscent girl. Its their claim to prove, not mine.  Well being a fair minded person one would expect you would subject yourself to the same level of proof. Grendel wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 9:15pm: Have you proof for your claims? not my claim to prove  :)  You claim they are wrong...  where's your proof? Grendel wrote on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 9:15pm: BTW I've never called Mohammed a pedophile so don't give me any attitude about it ok. No attitude intended - but apologies if I came across that way Did you read the 2nd link?  it is written by a Muslim.

Grendel wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:12pm:

really I thought the claim was he was a pedophile?

Just take a quick look at the dead horse Baron is flogging.


Grendel wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:12pm:

Well it seems many muslims think she was indeed very young and quite probably prepubescent.

Show me a single muslim who thinks she was prepubescent - after consummation I mean. There are none.


Grendel wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:12pm:

Well being a fair minded person one would expect you would subject yourself to the same level of proof.

Why? I'm not the one making the claim that the sources "prove" she was prepubescent at time of consummation.


Grendel wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:12pm:

You claim they are wrong...  where's your proof?

Thats not how it works. Burden of proof is not on me.


Grendel wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:12pm:

Did you read the 2nd link?  it is written by a Muslim.

Of course I did. Its a very good article - and supports everything I've been saying.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:30pm:

Show me a single muslim who thinks she was prepubescent - after consummation I mean. There are none.

Is that your best argument, Muslim? Thats like saying: "show me a single Muslim who thinks Islam is false".
What Muslims think of a certain issue is not relevant. What is relevant is what is present in Islamic documents like the Quran and hadith.
Multiple Sahih hadiths show Muhammad got engaged to Aisha when she was 6 and married her and had sex with her (consummated) when she was 9.
Others have already proven you wrong.

But your invalid requirement is met here:

Quote:

In summary, Dr Muhsin Khan in the official text published in the Islamic University; Al-Medina Al-Munauwara, Saudi Arabia, says in two related ahadith that Aisha had not reached puberty when she was 15 years old

see the same link posted before: wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha_and_Puberty (this stupid forum wont let me post links even though I successfully entered 5 different captchas, which is unsual for registration. Usually there's only one or two)

So there you have it. Thats a Muslim who says Aisha did not reach puberty when she was 15.

If you think its ok for a 54 year old man to have sex with a 9 year old, you are the typical Muslim defending his "Prophet" who many rightfully call a pedophile.


Quote:

Narrated Al-Qasim: ‘Aisha said, “We set out with the sole intention of performing Hajj and when we reached Sarif, (a place six miles from Mecca) I got my menses. Allah’s Apostle came to me while I was weeping. He said ‘What is the matter with you? Have you got your menses?’ I replied, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is a thing which Allah has ordained for the daughters of Adam. [ .. shortened ]” ‘Aisha added, “Allah’s Apostle sacrificed cows on behalf of his wives.” Sahih Bukhari 1:6:293 Narrated Al-Qasim bin Muhammad: ‘ Aisha said, “We set out with Allah’s Apostles in the months of Hajj, and (in) the nights of Hajj, and at the time and places of Hajj and in a state of Hajj. We dismounted at Sarif (a village six miles from Mecca). The Prophet then addressed his companions and said, “Anyone who has not got the Hadi and likes to do Umra instead of Hajj may do so (i.e. Hajj-al-Tamattu) and anyone who has got the Hadi should not finish the Ihram after performing ‘ Umra). (i.e. Hajj-al-Qiran). Aisha added, “The companions of the Prophet obeyed the above (order) and some of them (i.e. who did not have Hadi) finished their Ihram after Umra.” Allah’s Apostle and some of his companions were resourceful and had the Hadi with them, they could not perform Umra (alone) (but had to perform both Hajj and Umra with one Ihram). Aisha added, “Allah’s Apostle came to me and saw me weeping and said, “What makes you weep, O Hantah?” I replied, “I have heard your conversation with your companions and I cannot perform the Umra.” He asked, “What is wrong with you?’ I replied, ‘I do not offer the prayers (i.e. I have my menses).’ He said, ‘It will not harm you for you are one of the daughters of Adam, and Allah has written for you (this state) as He has written it for them. Keep on with your intentions for Hajj and Allah may reward you that.” Aisha further added, “Then we proceeded for Hajj till we reached Mina and I became clean from my menses. Sahih Bukhari 2:26:631 The two hadiths above, tell us the age when Aisha got her first menses. Her marriage was consummated in the year 622, and this journey for hajj took place in 629. Therefore, Aisha was about sixteen years old at the time of her first menstruation.

So in summary:
- multiple sahih hadith explicitly say that she was 6/9 when engaged/married (and had sex) with 51/54 year old Muhammad
- Muhammad had sex with Aisha when she was 9 (the word "consummated" is used in hadith)
- Your requirement of finding a Muslim who believes she had not reached puberty at 15 years of age, is met. I can find many other Muslims.
- Usually girls do not reach puberty at 9 years old. Its YOUR job to prove that she did reach puberty at 9.
- EVEN if she did, Muhammad was still a pedophile. According to wikipedia: "As a medical diagnosis, pedophilia or paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder in persons 16 years of age or older typically characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest toward prepubescent children (generally age 11 years or younger, though specific diagnostic criteria for the disorder extends the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13)."

Again, its a 9 year old girl and you as a Muslim (defender of your prophet) are saying that its ok to have sex with a 9 year old girl.

Would you be perfectly happy if a 51 year old man knocked on your door and wanted to be engaged to your 6 year old daughter, and have sex with her when she's 9 year old?

Your "prophet" had lust for a 9 year old girl and here you are defending him so you can get the large breasted virgins he promised you in Quran 78:33:


Quote:

Quran 78:33: Sahih International And full-breasted [companions] of equal age Yusuf Ali And voluptuous women of equal age;

Islam the holy book of Muslims says that Muslim men will get large breasted virgins in Heaven.

Is this the prophet you idolize and the god you worship?

Allah created Islam as a test to see who would be wise enough to leave it. Like many others you will not leave Islam and will fail that test and will burn in Allah's Hell for eternity for refusing to leave Islam.

Xaseui wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 11:29pm:

Is that your best argument, Muslim? Thats like saying: "show me a single Muslim who thinks Islam is false".

Look at what I was responding to:


Quote:

Well it seems many muslims think she was indeed very young and quite probably prepubescent.

It was to point out that I don't believe any muslim would believe she was prepubescent at time of consummation.


Xaseui wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 11:29pm:

But your invalid requirement is met here: Quote: In summary, Dr Muhsin Khan in the official text published in the Islamic University; Al-Medina Al-Munauwara, Saudi Arabia, says in two related ahadith that Aisha had not reached puberty when she was 15 years old see the same link posted before: wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha_and_Puberty

More flawed logic. There is dispute amongst scholars about the age of Aisha when she was married, thats what wiki-islam fails to take into account. When Mushin Khan claims she had not reached puberty at that point, in order to prove your argument, you need to demonstrate that Mushin Khan also believed the marriage had already been consummated. Wiki-islam makes the completely baseless assumption that Mushin Khan accepts the age that Aisha claims she was when she was married. He merely narrates what Aisha claimed, but there is no evidence that he actually accepts her claim.

Gandalf
Quote:

Well it seems many muslims think she was indeed very young and quite probably prepubescent.

As I said obviously it doesnt matter what Muslims think of an issue. We're looking at what is true historically.
Many muslims seem to think Muhammad was a prophet, so what they think is not important when we're trying to find out what is true about Islam or what really happened for a certain issue.
The approach should be to look at what sources say and as I explained above we DO know she was very young (6 when engaged, 9 when married).
As for whether she had reached puberty at age 9, that is for YOU to prove. Remember Wikipedia's definition of pedophilia.
Usually girls do NOT reach puberty at that age.
Usually spiders do not lay eggs inside human ears so if you're claiming this happened for a certain incident (that Aisha had reached puberty at age 9, or when Muhammad first had sex with her), its YOUR job to prove it. We're not the ones who have to prove it didnt happen.


Quote:

It was to point out that I don't believe any muslim would believe she was prepubescent at time of consummation.

Yes, again its irrelevant as to what Muslims believe about Aisha.
Muslims have varying beliefs about it. Some thing she was 9. Some think whatever her age was, Pedo Muhammad didnt have sex with her until later and that he waited.

Most likely no Muslim would every admit "Muhammad had sex with someone who hadnt reached puberty", because that would be saying something like "Muhammad willfully raped someone".

On the other hand Quran 65:4 says a child can be married to even if they havent reached puberty (google quran pedophilia and click the first link - all the sourced are mentioned):

Quote:

Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Quran the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waiting-period in case divorce is pronounced before the consummation of marriage. (Al-Ahzab: 49). Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Quran has held as permissible. Commentary on Qur'an Chapter 65:4 Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi, Tafhim al-Qur'an

So thats your Islamic scholar saying that you have no right to forbid what the Quran has allowed. If Muhammad did have sex with a pre-puberty girl and you are here to defend it because you want those large breasted women promised to you in Quran 78:33 by this terrorist Pedophile, then you are no one say this is not allowed in Islam, or never happened.
There are 500 other Tafsirs listed on that.
Here's another:
Quote:

The Noble Qur'an has also mentioned the waiting period [i.e. for a divorced wife to remarry] for the wife who has not yet menstruated, saying: "And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated" [Qur'an 65:4]. Since this is not negated later, we can take from this verse that it is permissible to have sexual intercourse with a prepubescent girl. The Qur'an is not like the books of jurisprudence which mention what the implications of things are, even if they are prohibited. It is true that the prophet (PBUH) entered into a marriage contract with A'isha when she was six years old, however he did not have sex with her until she was nine years old, according to al-Bukhari. Is it permissible to restrict the age at which girls can marry? Submitted by Ahmad, IslamOnline, December 24, 2010

So go ahead and prove that 9 year old Aisha had reached puberty.


Quote:

There is dispute amongst scholars about the age of Aisha when she was married, thats what wiki-islam fails to take into account.

For your requirement of "show any Muslim who thinks Aisha had reached puberty when she first had sex", it doesnt matter if there's a contradiction between Muslims.
As I said what Muslims believe is irrelevant in the first place and if we did try to meet that requirement, all I need to do is bring ONE Muslim and your requirement is met.


Quote:

When Mushin Khan claims she had not reached puberty at that point, in order to prove your argument, you need to demonstrate that Mushin Khan also believed the marriage had already been consummated.

That is proven by the multiple Sahih hadiths that she was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her (consummated).
Again who the _ cares what Muslims believe about Aisha? Do we know what Mohsin Khan really believes about Aisha, or what he does at 3am every morning? The issue is FACTS, and what really happened and for that we look at Islamic sources.

The doll playing hadiths explicitly say Aisha had not puberty at age 9 (confirming what statistics say about puberty age) and you have no proof whatsoever that she had reached it.

Muhammad's false perverted promise of large breasted virgins (in other words, women with big tits) (Quran 78:33) is what motivates you to defend Islam. Go ahead and try to prove she had reached puberty at age 9. You have no such proof.
Your prophet was a pedophile terrorist.

[Continued in part 2]

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:30pm:

Grendel wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 8:12pm: really I thought the claim was he was a pedophile? Just take a quick look at the dead horse Baron is flogging. Grendel wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 8:12pm: Well it seems many muslims think she was indeed very young and quite probably prepubescent. Show me a single muslim who thinks she was prepubescent - after consummation I mean. There are none. Grendel wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 8:12pm: Well being a fair minded person one would expect you would subject yourself to the same level of proof. Why? I'm not the one making the claim that the sources "prove" she was prepubescent at time of consummation. Grendel wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 8:12pm: You claim they are wrong...  where's your proof? Thats not how it works. Burden of proof is not on me. Grendel wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 8:12pm: Did you read the 2nd link?  it is written by a Muslim. Of course I did. Its a very good article - and supports everything I've been saying.

Obviously I've been giving you more credit than you deserve gandalf  ::)

gandalf, so again here you are defending 9 year old Aisha's marriage to 54 year old Muhammad.

Are you sympathetic towards pedophiles? Do you have such tendencies yourself?

Xaseui wrote on Nov 24^th, 2013 at 9:47am:

Gandalf Quote: Well it seems many muslims think she was indeed very young and quite probably prepubescent. As I said obviously it doesnt matter what Muslims think of an issue.

Funny, as this is an Islamic forum and is purportedly all about Islam (and it's persecution), I'd have thought what Muslims think was actually rather crucial to the discussion....  ::)


Quote:

We're looking at what is true historically.

By relying upon what Muslims wrote?   Mmmm, so, let me get this right, it doesn't matter what Muslims think but what they wrote, about their thinking on the topic is going to be a lot more true?  Right...   ::)

Brian Ross
According to your signature you're actually a Muslim so why is your name "Brian Ross"? Are you a convert to Islam? If so, what evidence did you accept before believing that Muhammad was really a prophet of God and not a liar when he made that claim?


Brian Ross wrote on Nov 24^th, 2013 at 3:22pm:

Funny, as this is an Islamic forum and is purportedly all about Islam (and it's persecution), I'd have thought what Muslims think was actually rather crucial to the discussion....  Roll Eyes

I'll give you another example. Every Muslim will claim that "there is no compulsion in religion", or its a peaceful religion, or Muhammad never fought offensive wars, Aisha had reached puberty when Muhammad married her and so on.
So while what Muslims think is important to know or talk about, it cant be used to determine what is actually true about Islam.
As you know all of those are things Muslims claim but they are not actually true about Islam.


Quote:

By relying upon what Muslims wrote?   Mmmm, so, let me get this right, it doesn't matter what Muslims think but what they wrote, about their thinking on the topic is going to be a lot more true?  Right...   Roll Eyes

Those people are historians (Bukhari, Ibn Ishaq, Tabari and so on) or otherwise are important authorities in Islam (Islamic scholars or leaders).
The historians recorded all we know about Islam so they are the only sources of what is true about Islam.

So (1 )when a historian records a violent hadith or when multiple historians record that Aisha was 9 when 54 year old Muhammad married her, thats a fact.
As opposed to (2) Muslim apologists in today's age who are going to ignore those hadiths and make excuses and offer their personal opinions about the matter.

Notice the difference between 1 and 2 and obviously they cannot be treated as equals.

But you're a Muslim

Xaseui wrote on Nov 24^th, 2013 at 11:09pm:

Brian Ross According to your signature you're actually a Muslim so why is your name "Brian Ross"?

Tsk, tsk, such silly assumptions.  They reveal far more about your mindset than they do about me.  ::)


Quote:

Are you a convert to Islam? If so, what evidence did you accept before believing that Muhammad was really a prophet of God and not a liar when he made that claim?

More assumptions on your part.   Why do you make them when there is no evidence that I am a Muslim or that I believe anything about Mohammed?

All I've done is take you to task for your other assumptions that what Muslims think is unimportant and that everything Muslims wrote about Aisha's age is.

If you weren't a five second blow-in, you'd know all the answers to your questions about me personally.   Not that they would make much different to the points I have made.   ::)


Quote:

Brian Ross wrote on Nov 24th, 2013 at 3:22pm: Funny, as this is an Islamic forum and is purportedly all about Islam (and it's persecution), I'd have thought what Muslims think was actually rather crucial to the discussion....  Roll Eyes I'll give you another example. Every Muslim will claim that "there is no compulsion in religion", or its a peaceful religion, or Muhammad never fought offensive wars, Aisha had reached puberty when Muhammad married her and so on. So while what Muslims think is important to know or talk about, it cant be used to determine what is actually true about Islam. As you know all of those are things Muslims claim but they are not actually true about Islam.

How is this different to any other religious belief?  Christians belief the most preposterous things about their religion, Jews theirs', etc., etc.  Muslims are no different yet you appear to believe that it is perfectly OK to dismiss their views on any issue about their religion.   ::)


Quote:

[quote]By relying upon what Muslims wrote?   Mmmm, so, let me get this right, it doesn't matter what Muslims think but what they wrote, about their thinking on the topic is going to be a lot more true?  Right...   Roll Eyes

Those people are historians (Bukhari, Ibn Ishaq, Tabari and so on) or otherwise are important authorities in Islam (Islamic scholars or leaders).
[/quote]

And who are the primary sources for the historians?  And you admit that you are relying on "Islamic scholars or leaders".  Mmmm, so who ordinary everyday Muslims rely upon for their informed viewpoints on their religion?   Could it be "Historians" or "Islamic scholars or leaders"?   You seem to be going in ever decreasing circles...   ::)


Quote:

The historians recorded all we know about Islam so they are the only sources of what is true about Islam.

What a charmingly naive belief in the inherent accuracy of historical records.  Obviously there can never be any bias or hatreds involved in the writing of history in your view then?   ::)


Quote:

So (1 )when a historian records a violent hadith or when multiple historians record that Aisha was 9 when 54 year old Muhammad married her, thats a fact.

Actually, it isn't.  Particularly if their primary sources are all the same.  You obviously have no idea how (medieval) historians researched their works.  Invariably they relied upon hearsay and often legend.   Often, they relied also upon each other and merely repeated the hearsay and legend as "facts".   Modern historians OTOH rely as much as possible on written records or archaeological evidence.  Guess what happens when there are no written records or archaeological evidence?  They usually just end up repeating the same stories which medieval historians repeated.


Quote:

As opposed to (2) Muslim apologists in today's age who are going to ignore those hadiths and make excuses and offer their personal opinions about the matter.

You are aware I hope that many Hadith were written post-ipso facto, often hundreds of years after the fact?  Their accuracy is very suspect and there are at the moment several large projects examining their authenticity.


Quote:

Notice the difference between 1 and 2 and obviously they cannot be treated as equals.

Notice that both 1 and 2 are neither particularly accurate?

It's like relying on the Torah or the Old Testament as an accurate record of early Judaism or the New Testament as an accurate record of Imperial Rome.    ::)


Quote:

But you're a Muslim

So quick to judge, so quick to discard the opinion of anyone you believe might be a Muslim.

You will of course be able to prove that assertion?   You will also, of course be able to supply us with that proof?  And of course, you'll be able to explain why you are acting in such a bigoted manner towards Muslims?

I look forward to seeing it.   ::)

Brian Ross
Quote:

How is this different to any other religious belief?  Christians belief the most preposterous things about their religion, Jews theirs', etc., etc.  Muslims are no different yet you appear to believe that it is perfectly OK to dismiss their views on any issue about their religion.   Roll Eyes

Two wrongs dont make a right. You're assuming I'm a Christian.
You started your post talking about assumptions and look at yourself.


Quote:

And who are the primary sources for the historians?  And you admit that you are relying on "Islamic scholars or leaders".  Mmmm, so who ordinary everyday Muslims rely upon for their informed viewpoints on their religion?   Could it be "Historians" or "Islamic scholars or leaders"?   You seem to be going in ever decreasing circles...   Roll Eyes

So basically your logic is that is person A says "Bukhari and Muslim reported in multiple Sahih hadiths that Aisha was 9 when married to 54 year old prophet",
person B can reply saying "But two terrorists in Afghanistan said she was 20 years old when she married Muhammad".

And you're going to accept the arguments of person B, because all the sources are Muslims? You think person B made a valid response?


Quote:

What a charmingly naive belief in the inherent accuracy of historical records.  Obviously there can never be any bias or hatreds involved in the writing of history in your view then?   Roll Eyes

You are a MUSLIM so you're trying to think up of all excuses. Get your Islamic scholars to reject the hadiths and before then, you have no religious authority to doubt the authority of Hadiths.


Quote:

Actually, it isn't.  Particularly if their primary sources are all the same.  You obviously have no idea how (medieval) historians researched their works.  Invariably they relied upon hearsay and often legend.   Often, they relied also upon each other and merely repeated the hearsay and legend as "facts".   Modern historians OTOH rely as much as possible on written records or archaeological evidence.  Guess what happens when there are no written records or archaeological evidence?  They usually just end up repeating the same stories which medieval historians repeated.

BS that is not relevant for this discussion.
You have to prove that Bukhari and Muslim are unreliable. That is relevant for the discussion. Go ahead.

Why are you so afraid of saying whether you're a Muslim or not? Are you embarrassed of being a Muslim?

Xaseui wrote on Nov 24^th, 2013 at 9:47am:

We're looking at what is true historically.

Quite right. Say like when people accuse the Prophet of being a "pedophile", typically we need some compelling evidence to support this claim. We all know what pedophilia is - it is a psychological condition, where an adult (usually a man) is primarily sexually attracted to very young girls - usually prepubescent.

The marriage to Aisha doesn't even come close to proving the accusation of pedophilia. She was the only one of his wives that was even close to puberty when he married her. For 25 years he was happily married to a woman much older than him. After that he had 9 other wives that were fully adult. The one wife that was much younger he waited an entire 3 years between marriage and consummation. And we know the purpose of the marriage - for political purposes to boost the succession bid of her father to lead the islamic nation.

In short, this is nothing at all like the behaviour of a sick person who has an uncontrollable lust for small children.

You talk about backing up claims, how about you clown back up the claim that he was a sick perverted man who had an unnatural lust for small children. You can't. Nothing in the known history of his life even remotely suggests that.

Xaseui, Brian a Muslim?  Got a live one there!   :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 25^th, 2013 at 7:12am:

For 25 years he was happily married to a woman much older than him. After that he had 9 other wives that were fully adult.

Hey Muslim
Who cares how many other women he married and how old they were.
One can be a pedophile if they have lust for young girls AND adult women.


Quote:

For 25 years he was happily married to a woman much older than him.

As a Muslim, you conveniently ignore the fact that Khadija was a  RICH and POWERFUL businesswoman.


Quote:

In short, this is nothing at all like the behaviour of a sick person who has an uncontrollable lust for small children.

No one said that a pedophile has to have "uncontrollable lust". Muhammad was a pedophile and you are here defending him so you can get your virgins with large breasts.

Go back to my post and try to refute the points I made.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 5:01pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 2:45pm: Here is the hadith that mentions Aisha's first menses, you claimed wiki islam is not touching that one yet anyone who clicks on the wiki  islam link will see they do mention it,what do they say? I see. Now if you could just provide some proof that this is her first menses... Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 2:45pm: Does Mo say to all his wives every time they have their menses-This is what allah has ordained for you? If he's accompanying them on their first Hajj, quite likely. Its pretty obvious what this is about Baron - Aisha has her heart set on performing the Hajj, but on the way gets her period. This hadith is instructions on what women can and can't do on the hajj when menstruating: "So do what all the pilgrims do with the exception of the Tawaf (Circumambulation) round the Ka`ba" There is nothing in this that suggests this was her first menses. This is you clutching at straws as usual. Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 2:45pm: You have debunked nothing, if you think you have debunked the dolls then try selling your horse manure to the ex muslims Well you never did have an answer to the fact that there is no mention of her playing with the dolls - which is the only thing mentioned that is prohibited. You were never able to provide any evidence that mere possession of dolls is prohibited for post-pubescent girls.

I recall you were in denial about Mo smacking his slave and demanded evidence, i provided the evidence for that.

Aisha did have her first menses aged 15-16 your own Islamic sources state this-

Quote:

We were at Sarif and i was in menses. I was a girl of tender age www.sunnah.com/muslim/15/129

Quote:

We came to Sarif and there i entered in the state of menses. I was very young and i well remember that www.sunnah.com/muslim/15/128

Tawaf of the Kaba is a pagan ritual copied by muslims.

Quote:

During the pre islamic period of ignorance, the people used to perform tawaf of the Kaba naked except the hums, the Hums were Quraish (jews) and their offspring. The hums would give clothes to the men and women who would perform tawf wearing them. www.sunnah.com/bukhari/25/146

Wiki islam mentions the dolls, you ignore the evidence from your own  Islamic texts and then pathetically claim there is no evidence, do you think anyone believes your crappola?
www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha_Age_of_Consummation

Mohammad was a pedo , a child molestor ,a prophet pretender- muslims are in denial about this truth.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 25^th, 2013 at 7:12am:

Quite right. Say like when people accuse the Prophet of being a "pedophile", typically we need some compelling evidence to support this claim. We all know what pedophilia is - it is a psychological condition, where an adult (usually a man) is primarily sexually attracted to very young girls - usually prepubescent. The marriage to Aisha doesn't even come close to proving the accusation of pedophilia. She was the only one of his wives that was even close to puberty when he married her.

He married her at age 6 and you claim this is close to puberty.

Mo was pedo and you have done nothing but clutch at straws trying to refute this fact.

Xaseui wrote on Nov 25^th, 2013 at 11:21am:

Go back to my post and try to refute the points I made.

But you made no points. Your failed attempt at making a point amounted to a non-sequitur on top of completely contradicting yourself, sprinkled with a few ad-hominems for good measure.

The only thing you said that was worth responding to was:


Xaseui wrote on Nov 24^th, 2013 at 9:47am:

As I said obviously it doesnt matter what Muslims think of an issue. We're looking at what is true historically.

So what i "true historically"? What are the actual historical facts that we know about?

1. we know The Prophet had 10 marriages all with fully adult women.

2. A single one of his 11 marriages was with a girl who at the time had not reached puberty

3. He waited a whole 3 years between marriage and consummation with this girl.

4. A sahih hadith cites Aisha herself as claiming she had already gone through puberty at a time we know was before the consummation. No other historical source so clearly places her puberty within the relevant timeline of her marriage and consummation.

5. There is not a single historical reference to her having reached puberty after consummation. Not one.

6. We know that the marriage to Aisha was an important political act to secure The Prophet's succession, and put the fledgling islamic nation into the hands of someone the Prophet trusted and had the most confidence in.

In light of the above *KNOWN* facts about The Prophet, how does that stack up against the claim he was a "pedophile"?

Pedophile:

1. "A pedophile is a person 16 years of age or older who is primarily or exclusively sexually attracted to children who have not begun puberty"

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophile 

2. " a person who has a sexual interest in children"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pedophile

3. "Pedophilia is defined as the fantasy or act of sexual activity with prepubescent children."

http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/pedophilia

Is there any evidence that Muhammad was "primarily or exclusively sexually attracted to children"? Given that 10 of his 11 wives were fully adult, this strongly suggests that he was "primarily or exclusively" sexually attracted to adult women.

Is there even any evidence that Muhammad was attracted at all to children? Is the act of consummating a marriage a sign of "sexual attraction"? Given that we know marriage was not really 'marriage' in that culture until consummation, and the circumstances around that marriage (for political purposes related to The Prophet's succession), this would seem more a case of 'a sense of duty' rather than the lustful act of a sick man.

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 25^th, 2013 at 11:41am:

Aisha did have her first menses aged 15-16 your own Islamic sources state this- Quote: We were at Sarif and i was in menses. I was a girl of tender age www.sunnah.com/muslim/15/129 Quote: We came to Sarif and there i entered in the state of menses. I was very young and i well remember that www.sunnah.com/muslim/15/128

Good grief, and you accuse me of clutching at straws  ;D ;D ;D


Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 25^th, 2013 at 11:41am:

Wiki islam mentions the dolls, you ignore the evidence from your own  Islamic texts

I have already refuted the doll theory. Do keep up Baron.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 25^th, 2013 at 12:07pm:

4. A sahih hadith cites Aisha herself as claiming she had already gone through puberty at a time we know was before the consummation. 5. There is not a single historical reference to her having reached puberty after consummation. Not one.

You are still clutching at straws with that debunked sahih hadith gandalf,it does not even mention what age she supposedly went through puberty.


Quote:

I had seen my parents follwoing Islam since i attained the age of puberty. www.sunnah.com/bukhari/8/124

So what does this sahih hadith say gandalf, are you still trying to say Aisha reached puberty before age 6 when she was married to that pedo false profit?

Quote:

Since the age which i could remember things, i have seen my parents following the Islam delusion. www.sunnah.com/bukhari/39/8

Quote:

I never remembered my parents believing in any other religion than Islam. www.sunnah.com/bukhari/63/131

Are you saying Aisha reached puberty at the age she could remember things ?

She had her first menses on the journey to hajj at Sarif, there are 2 sahih hadith that mention this.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 25^th, 2013 at 12:15pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 25th, 2013 at 11:41am: Aisha did have her first menses aged 15-16 your own Islamic sources state this- Quote: We were at Sarif and i was in menses. I was a girl of tender age www.sunnah.com/muslim/15/129 Quote: We came to Sarif and there i entered in the state of menses. I was very young and i well remember that www.sunnah.com/muslim/15/128 Good grief, and you accuse me of clutching at straws  ;D ;D ;D Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 25th, 2013 at 11:41am: Wiki islam mentions the dolls, you ignore the evidence from your own  Islamic texts I have already refuted the doll theory. Do keep up Baron.

You have refuted nothing, you are starting to sound like Abu in falsely claiming to have refuted or debunked anything, what # on FD's wiki is that?

Aisha said she was a tender age and very young, are they words muslims use for females who have had their menses?

Xaseui wrote on Nov 25^th, 2013 at 1:11am:

Brian Ross Quote: How is this different to any other religious belief?  Christians belief the most preposterous things about their religion, Jews theirs', etc., etc.  Muslims are no different yet you appear to believe that it is perfectly OK to dismiss their views on any issue about their religion.   Roll Eyes Two wrongs dont make a right. You're assuming I'm a Christian. You started your post talking about assumptions and look at yourself.

I am?  Where?  I've made no comment about I believe your religious beliefs may be, so perhaps you'd care to show us some evidence for a change?   ::)


Quote:

[quote]And who are the primary sources for the historians?  And you admit that you are relying on "Islamic scholars or leaders".  Mmmm, so who ordinary everyday Muslims rely upon for their informed viewpoints on their religion?   Could it be "Historians" or "Islamic scholars or leaders"?   You seem to be going in ever decreasing circles...   Roll Eyes

So basically your logic is that is person A says "Bukhari and Muslim reported in multiple Sahih hadiths that Aisha was 9 when married to 54 year old prophet",
person B can reply saying "But two terrorists in Afghanistan said she was 20 years old when she married Muhammad".

And you're going to accept the arguments of person B, because all the sources are Muslims? You think person B made a valid response?
[/quote]

What I'm saying is that there are few reliable records available as to what her age was.  Their contradictions would led a rational person to think twice about making a condemnation, particularly when one considers that marriages were made for many reasons over the last several thousands of years of human existence and in most tribal societies, love and lust are usually far down the list.

You, OTOH, appear to believe that once something is committed to the page, it becomes well, the "Gospel Truth"(tm)   ::)


Quote:

[quote]What a charmingly naive belief in the inherent accuracy of historical records.  Obviously there can never be any bias or hatreds involved in the writing of history in your view then?   Roll Eyes

You are a MUSLIM so you're trying to think up of all excuses.
[/quote]

I am?  According to whom?  You?  You've already displayed your prejudices against Muslims quite openly.  Most rational people wouldn't care what the religion of their interlocutor was.  I've made no statements about my beliefs or non-beliefs, as the case might be, you've automatically assumed merely because I am critical of your rather narrow-minded declarations that I MUST be a "Muslim".  You really are proving my case for me, most wonderfully, you realise?  You display your religious intolerance openly, your prejudices and your hatreds.  There is a word which many accuse me of being over-fond of, which describes that sort of mindset.  I do hope you wear your bigotry with some pride?   ::)


Quote:

Get your Islamic scholars to reject the hadiths and before then, you have no religious authority to doubt the authority of Hadiths.

I have no "Islamic scholars".  I don't own people.   ::)


Quote:

[quote]Actually, it isn't.  Particularly if their primary sources are all the same.  You obviously have no idea how (medieval) historians researched their works.  Invariably they relied upon hearsay and often legend.   Often, they relied also upon each other and merely repeated the hearsay and legend as "facts".   Modern historians OTOH rely as much as possible on written records or archaeological evidence.  Guess what happens when there are no written records or archaeological evidence?  They usually just end up repeating the same stories which medieval historians repeated.

BS that is not relevant for this discussion.
[/quote]

Isn't it?  Hey, you're the one who's claiming that he is relying upon Medieval Historians for his "facts", not me.  I know and understand the fallibility of historians, ancient, middle-ages and modern.


Quote:

You have to prove that Bukhari and Muslim are unreliable. That is relevant for the discussion. Go ahead.

I don't have to prove a damn thing.  You've proved it for me.  You've demonstrated why your opinions are based upon prejudice and ignorance, rather than understanding and knowledge.

Let me remind you of a rather apt quotation from E.P.Hartley, which is rather apt to what went on 1400 years ago in Medieval Arabia, “The past is like another country; they do things differently there.”

Attempting to judge Medieval Arabian social mores by modern standards is a pretty pointless occupation.   ::)


Quote:

Why are you so afraid of saying whether you're a Muslim or not? Are you embarrassed of being a Muslim?

I'm not afraid, I merely don't see it's relevance.  I don't believe religious persecution should be allowed to go unmarked.  Our society was founded on the principle of a "fair go" for all.  You're definitely not interested in that.  Does that make your views "unAustralian"?   ::)

Allah humma Innee As alooka Dont defend pedophiles and dont be fooled by men who promise their followers big tits in Heaven -- 'ilman naa fee-ow wa Rizq-ow waa See-ow wa Shee-faa amm min Kooll-lee daa-een. &&


Gandalf the Muslim:

Quote:

4. A sahih hadith cites Aisha herself as claiming she had already gone through puberty at a time we know was before the consummation. No other historical source so clearly places her puberty within the relevant timeline of her marriage and consummation.

What hadith? There is none.

I'm short of time so let me just remind all the Muslims again. The REASON why you defend Islam is that:
Your prophet Mr. Muhammad said that if you were good and obeyed him, he would gift you with women with BIG TITS.

You think I'm making this up?

Quran 78:33 -
And full-breasted [companions] of equal age (Sahih International)

And voluptuous women of equal age;  (Yusuf Ali)

There you go. You like big tits, right? We all do.
Bad news though. Muhammad was making a false promise while pretending to be a prophet of God.

Leave Islam and come out of it. Now.

Respond to Gandalf:

Quote:

primarily or exclusively sexually attracted to children

Pedophilia doesnt mean someone has an EXCLUSIVE interest in only pre-pubescent girls:

Quote:

For example, The American Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary states, "Pedophilia is the act or fantasy on the part of an adult of engaging in sexual activity with a child or children."

Also:
webmd DOT com/mental-health/features/explaining-pedophilia
says:
Are pedophiles only attracted to children?

Quote:

Some pedophiles may be as attracted to adults as they are to children, but it's hard to know how common that is. That's because most pedophilia research is based on people who were arrested for sexual offenses against children, and they may tend to exaggerate their sexual interest in adults to seem more "normal," Blanchard says.

So stop saying that pedophiles are only interested in pre-puibsceent children.

Your Big-Titty-promising prophet was a pedophile. Please try to accept that.
Did you try to skip over the text in red here? Don't you dare.

At least you admit that Mo-Ham-mie married Aisha at a time she had not reached puberty so thank you for that.

Brian Ross

Quote:

What I'm saying is that there are few reliable records available as to what her age was.

So you think multiple Sahih hadiths are not considered as reliable.
You should have read Quran and hadiths before converting to Islam. Look what you are doing now. You're defending a pedophile who pretended he was the last prophet of god.
Lets talk about Quran 5:38 which asks Muslims to cut off hands of a thief. You accept the Quran. Also the wife beating verse in Quran 4:34. Go ahead make excuses for your pedophile hero's Arabic Comic book.
Too bad you wrote 50 lines of nonsense but were still afraid to say that you are indeed a Muslim. You are ashamed of being one. You know what you get in heaven? A--- cups. That is the smallest cup size.
You want the D cups promised to you in Surah 78:33? Start by being courageous enough to state openly what your beliefs are.

Xaseui wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 11:33am:

What hadith? There is none.

Quote:

Narrated `Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty. Not a day passed but the Prophet () visited us, both in the mornings and evenings. My father Abu Bakr thought of building a mosque in the courtyard of his house and he did so. He used to pray and recite the Qur'an in it. The pagan women and their children used to stand by him and look at him with surprise. Abu Bakr was a Softhearted person and could not help weeping while reciting the Qur'an. The chiefs of the Quraish pagans became afraid of that (i.e. that their children and women might be affected by the recitation of Qur'an).

- Abu Bakr accepted Islam
- Abu Bakr built a mosque in the courtyard of his house
- The Prophet visited Aisha every day at her parents house

- *ALL* these events happened before the hijra, that is not disputed.

- Muhammad's marriage was consummated in Medina - after the hijra, that is not disputed.

The hadith *CLEARLY* places the time of her puberty well before her consummation with Muhammad.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 12:07pm:

- Abu Bakr accepted Islam - Abu Bakr built a mosque in the courtyard of his house - The Prophet visited Aisha every day at her parents house - *ALL* these events happened before the hijra, that is not disputed. - Muhammad's marriage was consummated in Medina - after the hijra, that is not disputed. The hadith *CLEARLY* places the time of her puberty well before her consummation with Muhammad.

Baron has responded to that. The hadith does not mention the age.
Why havent you responded to him saying:

Quote:

She had her first menses on the journey to hajj at Sarif, there are 2 sahih hadith that mention this.

?

So many ways to respond to what you said. Let me use the same excuses YOU guys use. Lets start by saying that I bet that hadith is weak.

What is the exact reference for that hadith? Why havent you given a hadith number and so on?
This is most likely a doctored fake hadith - Muslims love to LIE for their religion so they can get those women with big tits. The usage of the word "soft hearted" is highly suspicious.
"pagans became afraid of that" - just seems like a modern creation by some Tom Dick and Harry, not a historic hadith by a scholar who can compare to Bukhari and Muslim.
They never use language like that.

And another argument is that you cannot use Hadith to defend Islam since many Muslims like Brian Ross reject hadiths in their entirety.
Beggars cannot be choosers.

That hadith also contradicts the doll playing hadith.

In the end, you are saying that a 9 year old girl reached puberty. You know the chances of that happening are slim, right?
A 54 year old man smacking a 9 year old little girl?  You think that looks GOOD for Islam?
Like I said, so many ways to respond to that.

Continued on next post.

This response is from a Forum, and is a response to the hadith you quoted
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:

A Muslim has pointed out that one particular translation of a sahih Bukhari hadith may be interpreted to show that Aisha had already reached puberty during her initial period of living in Mecca prior to the Hijrah. Muhsin Khan’s translation of Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Number 465: Narrated 'Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty. Not a day passed but the Prophet visited us, both in the mornings and evenings. My father Abii Bakr thought of building a mosque in the courtyard of his house and he did so. He used to pray and recite the Qur'an in it. The pagan women and their children used to stand by him and look at him with surprise. Abu Bakr was a softhearted person and could not help weeping while reciting the Quran. The chiefs of the Quraish pagans became afraid of that (i.e. that their children and women might be affected by the recitation of Quran)." There are at least three “errors” with this interpretation of this particular translation of the hadith. 1. It is contradicted by other sahih Bukhari hadiths of the same incident that suggest Aisha only remembered her parents following Islam as far as she remembered or that she did not remember her parents believing in any religion other than Islam. By all accounts Aisha was born after her parents accepted Islam and it is erroneous to think she could only remember her parents following Islam after she reached the age of puberty. These hadiths are as follows: Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 37, Number 494: Narrated Aisha: (wife of the Prophet) Since I reached the age when I could remember things, I have seen my parents worshipping according to the right faith of Islam. Not a single day passed but Allah's Apostle visited us both in the morning and in the evening… Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 245: Narrated 'Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) I never remembered my parents believing in any religion other than the true religion (i.e. Islam), and (I don't remember) a single day passing without our being visited by Allah's Apostle in the morning and in the evening… Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 102: Narrated 'Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) "I do not remember my parents believing in any religion other than the Religion (of Islam), and our being visited by Allah's Apostle in the morning and in the evening. One day, while we were sitting in the house of Abu Bakr (my father) at noon, someone said, 'This is Allah's Apostle coming at an hour at which he never used to visit us.' Abu Bakr said, 'There must be something very urgent that has brought him at this hour.' The Prophet said, 'I have been allowed to go out (of Mecca) to migrate.' " Hence, using Muhsin Khan’s translation of 1;8;465 to show Aisha had reached puberty before she migrated to Medinah is doubtful since this conclusion would be inconsistent with other hadiths of the same event. These hadiths show Aisha remembered her parents following Islam not since she reached puberty but as far as she could remember, and it is implausible to believe she only began her recollections upon reaching puberty. 2. This raises the question of the veracity and reliability of Muhsin Khan’s translation of 1;8;465. A search of other translations of this particular hadith shows no mention of Aisha’s puberty at all. In fact, it is likely that Muhsin Khan translation of 1;8;465 is erroneous. Here is another translation of the said hadith: Chapter 11: Mosque LII: A mosque should not be built in a thoroughfare if that would be detrimental to people Al-Hasan, Ayyub and Malik all said this. 464 It is related that 'A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "I have no recollection of my parents doing anything but following the deen of Islam. No day would pass without the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, visiting us at either end of it, both morning and evening. Then it occurred to Abu Bakr to build a mosque in the forecourt of his house. He used to pray and recite Qur'an in it. The pagan women and children would stand there amazed, staring at him. Abu Bakr was a man who wept easily and could not control his tears when reading the Qur'an and this was a matter of great concern to those nobles of Quraysh who worshipped idols." sunnipath DOT com/Resources/PrintMedia/Hadith/H0002P0011.aspx Hence, 1;8;465 is entirely consistent with other like hadiths in that Aisha did not remember her parents following any religion other than Islam, and not since she reached puberty. One suggests Muhsin Khan's translation is erroneous and that the original meaning does not convey the idea of Aisha having reached puberty during the events mentioned in the hadith. {Note the numbering is less one compared to Muhsin Khan’s translation. However, a check of the preceding and subsequent hadiths shows that the sunnipath hadith is identical to Muhsin Khan’s hadith}.

continued ...

Rest of the post:
Dont whine that these source was an anti-Islamic website or poster on the forum. We're all anti-Islamic and those websites are also anti-Islamic, so you have to look at the argument.
Your argument is therefore BUSTED.
And again in any case you're saying that its OK for a 54 year old man to bugger a 9 year old little girl.


Quote:

3. Other sahih hadiths suggest that Aisha was a young girl or little girl who was of an immature age, and thus would contradict any interpretation of the Muhsin Khan translation of 1;8;465 to mean Aisha had reached puberty whilst she was still residing in Mecca. These hadiths include Bukhari 3;48;805 , 3;48;829 , Bukhari 6; 60; 274 , Bukhari 7;62;163 , and Muslim 037; 6673 and show that Aisha had not attained puberty even at the time of the raid on the Bani al-Mustaliq, traditionally ascribed to have occurred between 4 to 6 AH. { Ibn Sa'd in his Tabaqat – Sha’ban 5 AH; Musa bin 'Uqbah – 4 AH; Ibn Ishaq - Sha'ban 6AH islamicperspectives DOT  com/Chastity.htm. Other datings of the Mustaliq raid anwary-islam DOT com/prophet-life/holly-p-10.htm , al-islamforallDOT org/Ghazwat/ghazwat/mustaliq.htm } Conclusion There is no evidence that Aisha had reached puberty before the migration to Medinah, except for a Muhsin Khan translation (only with a favorable interpretation) that is clearly at odds with other hadiths of the same event, another translation of the same hadith, and other hadiths that clearly suggest that she had not reached puberty at least 4 years after the migration and hence at least 2 to 3 years after Muhammad had had sex with her (see Abdul Walid bin Muhammad Talib’s article proving Muhammad had sex with Aisha when she was nine years old

Xaseui wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 2:44pm:

The hadith does not mention the age.

The hadith describes her reaching puberty while she was still living with her parents - ie before consummation.


Xaseui wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 2:44pm:

Why havent you responded to him saying: Quote: She had her first menses on the journey to hajj at Sarif, there are 2 sahih hadith that mention this.

I did. I pointed out that there is zero evidence that this was her first menses.


Xaseui wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 2:44pm:

Lets start by saying that I bet that hadith is weak.

Its sahih bukhari.

Do you know what sahih means? It means "sound" and is the highest category of authenticity. You can confirm that with wiki-islam.


Xaseui wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 2:44pm:

What is the exact reference for that hadith? Why havent you given a hadith number and so on?

;D ;D you funny.

Baron referenced it for you just a few posts back.


Quote:

Reference       : Sahih al-Bukhari 476 In-book reference       : Book 8, Hadith 124 USC-MSA web (English) reference       : Vol. 1, Book 8, Hadith 465

and here's the url:
http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/8/124

But of course you could have worked that out all by your little self simply by cutting and pasting the quote into google.


Xaseui wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 2:44pm:

And another argument is that you cannot use Hadith to defend Islam since many Muslims like Brian Ross reject hadiths in their entirety.

Fine by me. The only problem is that clowns like you insist on invoking certain historical "facts" to build your smears -  like Aisha being 9 at time of consummation, or that Aisha supposedly had her first menses at 15 - facts that come from.. you guessed it... ahadith. It works both ways - if I can't use ahadith to defend islam, you also cannot use them to attack islam. Goodness, where would you be if we discard ahadith and went with modern scholarly opinion that Aisha was over 15 at time of marriage, and around 20 at time of consummation? No more having sex with 9 year old, no more 'first menses at 15' baloney, and no more flawed logic related to playing with dolls. In short, your entire smear would be smashed to pieces.

So suggest you don't play that card  ;)

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 12:07pm:

Quote: Narrated `Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty. Not a day passed but the Prophet () visited us, both in the mornings and evenings. My father Abu Bakr thought of building a mosque in the courtyard of his house and he did so. He used to pray and recite the Qur'an in it. The pagan women and their children used to stand by him and look at him with surprise. Abu Bakr was a Softhearted person and could not help weeping while reciting the Qur'an. The chiefs of the Quraish pagans became afraid of that (i.e. that their children and women might be affected by the recitation of Qur'an). - Abu Bakr accepted Islam - Abu Bakr built a mosque in the courtyard of his house - The Prophet visited Aisha every day at her parents house - *ALL* these events happened before the hijra, that is not disputed. - Muhammad's marriage was consummated in Medina - after the hijra, that is not disputed. The hadith *CLEARLY* places the time of her puberty well before her consummation with Muhammad.

Aisha saw her parents following Islam from the age she could remember things, you are clutching at straws in claiming a child younger than 6 had reached puberty, do you think anyone will believe Aisha reached puberty at such an early age or will they think it is another muslim defending their child molesting pedo profit?


Quote:

Since i reached the age i could remember things, i have seen my parents following Islam. sunnah.com/bukhari/39/8oooo

You are claiming she reached puberty from 8/124 yet she was still playing with dolls which would be haram  if she had reached puberty,do we ignore this sahih hadith which states she was playing with dolls and had not reached puberty

Quote:

I used to play with dolls in the presence of the profit. The playing with dolls is forbidden,but it was allowed for Aisha as she was a little girl,not yet reached the age of puberty www.sunnah.com/bukhari/78/157

Aisha was around 14 when this verse was revealed, your own Islamic websites state she had not reached puberty, do you think people will believe you or what is on your Islamic websites?

Quote:

So you may deduce from this event how a little girl who has not reached the age of puberty... www.sunnah.com/bukhari/67/169

Those sahih hadeeth that mention her first menses also said she was a little girl of tender age.

As usual we have muslims who cannot agree on anything from the niqab to islamic terror and even when Aisha reached puberty despite Allah saying Islam has been perfected in the quran.

Quote:

Allah speaking- This day i have perfected for you your religion. www.quran.com/5/3

The Quran tells you to follow Mohammad's example in 33/21, do you believe it is ok to have sex with your 9 year old child bride if you claim she has reached puberty?

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 3:39pm:

Xaseui wrote on Nov 26th, 2013 at 2:44pm: Why havent you responded to him saying: Quote: She had her first menses on the journey to hajj at Sarif, there are 2 sahih hadith that mention this. I pointed out that there is zero evidence that this was her first menses.

You claim there is zero evidence yet you cannot produce anything to show it was not her first menses.

Islam considers a female to me mature when she has her menses, why does Aisha say she was a little girl of tender age in those sahih hadeeth, are they words muslims use to describe mature females or little girls?

Mo was pedo and you are clutching at straws gandalf.

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 5:03pm:

why does Aisha say she was a little girl of tender age in those sahih hadeeth, are they words muslims use to describe mature females or little girls?

Right so the description "tender age" is irrefutable proof of prepubescence in your book.

You are entitled to your opinion Baron, but I think any sensible objective observer would consider that a huge and quite ridiculous assumption.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 6:49pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 26th, 2013 at 5:03pm: why does Aisha say she was a little girl of tender age in those sahih hadeeth, are they words muslims use to describe mature females or little girls? Right so the description "tender age" is irrefutable proof of prepubescence in your book. You are entitled to your opinion Baron, but I think any sensible objective observer would consider that a huge and quite ridiculous assumption.

The evidence from your own Islamic texts cited from Islamic websites show Mo was a child molesting pedo.

We also have the fact it is irrelevant whether Aisha had reached puberty or not as Islam allows a man to have sex with his prepubescent wife.

We could see what Sheik Munajid who studied under the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia says, Do Muslims face Mecca in Saudi Arabia when they pray?

Quote:

Praise be to Allah Marriage to a young girl before she reaches puberty is permissible according to sharia,there is scholarly consensus on this point. al Talaaq 65:4 Allah states that for those who do not menstruate because they are young and have not yet reached the age of puberty- the iddah in the case of divorce is 3 months,This clearly indicates that it is permissible for a young girl who has not started her periods to marry The same applies  to the iddah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young,if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them The prophet married Aisha when she was 6 and consummated the marriage when she was 9. The scholars are unanimously agreed that a father may marry off his young daughter without consulting her. The husband should not have intercourse until she becomes able for that. Islamic source-www.islamqa.com/en/12708

Allah says it is ok to have sex with your prepubescent wife,Mo the pedo's favourite wife was the prepubescent one.
The Quran tells you to follow the example Mo set in this verse-
www.quran.com/33/21
(read all english translations by ticking boxes on  left)

Saudia Arabia has allowed child brides for over 1400 years-
www.examiner.com/article/10-year-old-child-bride-saudi-arabia

Yemen has had child brides since Islam invaded over 1400 years ago-
www.examiner.com/article/yemen-8-year-old-girl-dies-from-internal-injuries-on-wedding-night

The evidence is compelling that Mo was pedo and Islam condones pedophilia.

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 10:37pm:

We also have the fact it is irrelevant whether Aisha had reached puberty or not as Islam allows a man to have sex with his prepubescent wife.

Ahh I see. So Aisha reaching puberty is irrelevant to the claim that Muhammad had sex with a prepubescent girl  :P

You are hilarious.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 27^th, 2013 at 6:54am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 26th, 2013 at 10:37pm: We also have the fact it is irrelevant whether Aisha had reached puberty or not as Islam allows a man to have sex with his prepubescent wife. Ahh I see. So Aisha reaching puberty is irrelevant to the claim that Muhammad had sex with a prepubescent girl  :P You are hilarious.

Sheik Munajid quoted the Quran where allah says the iddah for a prepubescent girl is 3 months even if the marriage has been consummated.

Where does the Quran forbid sex with prepubescent children can you cite that verse?

Muslims are the only people who defend 50+ year old guys banging 9 year old children while claiming it is not pedophilia.

There is nothing in the Quran or sunnah that says Aisha had reached puberty before Mo banged her,there is nothing prohibiting sex with prepubescent girls in the Quran in fact it even says how long you have to wait to divorce your child brides after consummating the marriage.

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 10:37pm:

al Talaaq 65:4 Allah states that for those who do not menstruate because they are young and have not yet reached the age of puberty- the iddah in the case of divorce is 3 months,This clearly indicates that it is permissible for a young girl who has not started her periods to marry The same applies  to the iddah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young,if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them

A complete lie.

Nowhere in 65:4 does it say words to the effect "because they are too young", that is a complete invention on Sheik Munajid's part.

The actual translation from Sahih International:


Quote:

And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.

or if you like, Yusuf Ali - the other universal English translation:


Quote:

Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

Note, the words "those who have not menstruated." and " for those who have no courses" - nothing hinting that they are not menstruating because they are too young. Merely stating that they are not, at that particular time, menstruating as per their normal cycle.

If you want to get technical...


Quote:

"Lam Yahidna" negates menstruation in the past tense and the jussive mode and means "did not menstruate," with the expectation that the woman should be menstruating, since that natural cycle is part of her normal state.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-david-liepert/islamic-pedophelia_b_814332.html

Or in other words, exactly as Sahih International and Yusuf Ali describe it.

You can click on the Islamqa link and spin what is on Islamic websites anyway you like.


I think you will find sheik Munajid is explaining 65/4 with help from the sahih hadeeth, he quotes Bukhari/muslim/Abu Dawud just like you do.

From your huffington post link written by a muslim-

Quote:

There is absolutely no question that Aisha was an adult when she consummated her marriage with Muhammad

So why do muslims insist 9 year old girls are adults, do they support pedophilia, do you expect a rational person to believe these lies or what is actually written in the Islamic texts cited from Islamic websites?

Quote:

Narrated Aisha- Muhammad's child bride and favourite wife The profit married her when she was 6 years old and he consummated his marriage when she was 9 years old. www.sunnah.com/bukhari/67/69

Quote:

Narrated Urwa, lots of hadeeth saying the same thing The prophet married Aisha when she was 6 and consummated his marriage with her when she was 9 years old www.sunnah.com/bukhari/67/93

Young girls dont menstruate because they have not reached puberty.

Why did Aisha have no children with Mohammad, is it because she got her menses about 2-3 years before he died and Mo was impotent in his final years?

Are there hadeeth where Aisha says Mo has control like no other (he couldn't get it up, erectile dysfunction)?

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 27^th, 2013 at 6:17pm:

You can click on the Islamqa link and spin what is on Islamic websites anyway you like.

Website Baron, singular. Its a single website Don't try pretending this crackpot is in anyway representative of islamic scholarly opinion. Even Saudi Arabia have banned him.

Funny how you sift through the plethora of other islamic websites that vigorously argue that girls must have reached puberty. But then we are talking about someone who dismisses 5 out of 6 quranic translations (including the most universally accepted - sahih, Yusuf Ali and Pickthall) in favour of the one that just happens to fit most closely with your bigoted viewpoint.


Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 27^th, 2013 at 6:17pm:

From your huffington post link written by a muslim- Quote: There is absolutely no question that Aisha was an adult when she consummated her marriage with Muhammad So why do muslims insist 9 year old girls are adults

God you ask moronic questions  ::)

Read the smacking article Baron, half of it is spent arguing that Aisha was *NOT* 9 years at consummation - and cites some compelling evidence to support it.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 27^th, 2013 at 7:17pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 27th, 2013 at 6:17pm: You can click on the Islamqa link and spin what is on Islamic websites anyway you like. Website Baron, singular. Its a single website Don't try pretending this crackpot is in anyway representative of islamic scholarly opinion. Even Saudi Arabia have banned him. Funny how you sift through the plethora of other islamic websites that vigorously argue that girls must have reached puberty. But then we are talking about someone who dismisses 5 out of 6 quranic translations (including the most universally accepted - sahih, Yusuf Ali and Pickthall) in favour of the one that just happens to fit most closely with your bigoted viewpoint. Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 27th, 2013 at 6:17pm: From your huffington post link written by a muslim- Quote: There is absolutely no question that Aisha was an adult when she consummated her marriage with Muhammad So why do muslims insist 9 year old girls are adults God you ask moronic questions  ::) Read the smacking article Baron, half of it is spent arguing that Aisha was *NOT* 9 years at consummation - and cites some compelling evidence to support it.

Websites,plural gandalf, you appear to reject quran.com and sunnah.com as well if it does not conform to your opinions.

Falah quoted Islam qa in this forum he is a muslim.

All Saudi bearded nutjobs were temporarily banned under the Saudi government who were seeking to have only accredited clerics issuing fatwas,Sheik Munajjid has been approved and his website is still available in Saudi Arabia and he has issued new fatwas, he cites from Islamic scholars.
As you can see the Saudis have a problem with child brides thanks to Islamic ideology.
www.islamqa.com/en/12708

To believe Aisha was not aged 9 when dirty old pedo profit broke her in means you have to ignore all those sahih hadeeth that say she was 9 and favour some crackpot text that no real muslim will believe.

Look at the muslims in this video at Dawah school where they learn to combine the honesty of a used car salesman combined with a politician to sell that horse manure called Islam.
As we can see at the 38 minute mark they come up with pathetic excuses for Aisha's young age when her marriage was consummated.
Can muslims ever get their story straight on anything?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykg-4bmXaTM

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 28^th, 2013 at 11:16am:

you appear to reject quran.com and sunnah.com

um no thats you Baron. You reject the universal English translations of Sahih International and Yusuf Ali - plus the other 3 translations, in favour of the far more obscure Mushin Khan. Mainstream islamic scholarly opinion is all but unanimous about the meaning of 65:4, and that it does *NOT* refer to prepubescent girls. You just choose not to go out and see that for yourself, instead rely on what wiki-islam tells you to say.


Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 28^th, 2013 at 11:16am:

To believe Aisha was not aged 9 when dirty old pedo profit broke her in means you have to ignore all those sahih hadeeth that say she was 9 and favour some crackpot text that no real muslim will believe.

Ignoring sahih hadith? Like the one that clearly states Aisha had gone through puberty well before consummation?

Almost all of the sahih hadith that states she was 6 and 9 come from Aisha herself. The two that don't are almost certainly just parroting what Aisha said.

So in Baron world, Aisha's claims fall in two categories:

1. when she claims she was 6 and 9 = gospel truth
2. when she claims she had gone through puberty = absurd ramblings of a kid who has no clue.

Not that it matters - my argument all along has been based on the premise that 9 year old Aisha had already gone through puberty - since there is no evidence suggesting otherwise. The sum total of your failed attempt to refute this amounts to:

1. assumption that because Aisha *OWNED* dolls after consummation, it necessarily followed that she played with them, something supposedly banned for post-pubescent girls under Islamic law (though even if that was true, its no proof - since who's to say Aisha wasn't granted an exception?)

2. seizing on her description of herself as being "of tender age" as irrefutable proof that this meant "prepubescent"

3. quoting 65:4 - attempting (wrongly) to claim that islamic law allows sex with prepubescent girls - which even if true, is no proof whatsoever that Muhammad actually did that with Aisha.

4. Screaming "Mo was a pedo - do you expect a rational person to believe your lies" over and over again like a 4 year old.

In summary, not a single piece of evidence that comes even close to proving that Muhammad had sex with any prepubescent girl.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 28^th, 2013 at 12:23pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 28th, 2013 at 11:16am: you appear to reject quran.com and sunnah.com um no thats you Baron. You reject the universal English translations of Sahih International and Yusuf Ali - plus the other 3 translations, in favour of the far more obscure Mushin Khan. Mainstream islamic scholarly opinion is all but unanimous about the meaning of 65:4, and that it does *NOT* refer to prepubescent girls. You just choose not to go out and see that for yourself, instead rely on what wiki-islam tells you to say. Sheik Munajjid does quote 65:4 correctly if anyone clicks on the link they will find this. He quotes al Tabari on-The same applies to iddah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young,if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage. Is your problem with Munajjid or his quoting Al Tabari? Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 28th, 2013 at 11:16am: To believe Aisha was not aged 9 when dirty old pedo profit broke her in means you have to ignore all those sahih hadeeth that say she was 9 and favour some crackpot text that no real muslim will believe. Ignoring sahih hadith? Like the one that clearly states Aisha had gone through puberty well before consummation? You ignore the sahih hadeeth on death for apostasy, your hadith is not the conclusive evidence you think it is when Islamic websites say she had not gone through puberty at age 14 Almost all of the sahih hadith that states she was 6 and 9 come from Aisha herself. The two that don't are almost certainly just parroting what Aisha said. Only muslims say smacking a 9 year old is ok if she has gone through puberty,nobody else believes smacking a 9 year old is acceptable,Muslims claim Mohammad was the perfcet man So in Baron world, Aisha's claims fall in two categories: 1. when she claims she was 6 and 9 = gospel truth 2. when she claims she had gone through puberty = absurd ramblings of a kid who has no clue. Do you think we can ignore other sahih hadeeth on Islamic websites that say she had not gone through puberty at age 14 which is 5 years after Mo banged her? Not that it matters - my argument all along has been based on the premise that 9 year old Aisha had already gone through puberty - since there is no evidence suggesting otherwise. The sum total of your failed attempt to refute this amounts to: There is evidence from Islamic websites saying Aisha had not reached puberty, you choose to ignore it because it confirms Mo was pedo 1. assumption that because Aisha *OWNED* dolls after consummation, it necessarily followed that she played with them, something supposedly banned for post-pubescent girls under Islamic law (though even if that was true, its no proof - since who's to say Aisha wasn't granted an exception?) There are sahih hadith that saying she was playing with dolls after the verse you claimed she reached puberty, sunnah.com even states she had not reached puberty 2. seizing on her description of herself as being "of tender age" as irrefutable proof that this meant "prepubescent" She said little girl of tender age in those hadeeth, muslims say a woman is mature if she reached puberty,do they decribe people who have gone through pubertyt as a little girl of tender age? 3. quoting 65:4 - attempting (wrongly) to claim that islamic law allows sex with prepubescent girls - which even if true, is no proof whatsoever that Muhammad actually did that with Aisha. Islam qa quoted 65/4 correctly, are you disputing al Tabari? Islamqa.com/en/12708 4. Screaming "Mo was a pedo - do you expect a rational person to believe your lies" over and over again like a 4 year old. He was pedo,he banged sex slaves as well, muslims claim Mohammad was the perfect man and quran 33/1 says to follow his example In summary, not a single piece of evidence that comes even close to proving that Muhammad had sex with any prepubescent girl. Multiple sahih hadeeth say Mo banged his child bride before she reached puberty

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 28^th, 2013 at 12:52pm:

sunnah.com even states she had not reached puberty

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 28^th, 2013 at 12:52pm:

Islamic websites say she had not gone through puberty at age 14

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 28^th, 2013 at 12:52pm:

Multiple sahih hadeeth say Mo banged his child bride before she reached puberty

Oops sorry, left one out from the list of your arguments:

5. completely make stuff up about the ahadith.

Do you have any shame at all baron? Even just a little bit?

Xaseui wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 11:33am:

Brian Ross Quote: What I'm saying is that there are few reliable records available as to what her age was. So you think multiple Sahih hadiths are not considered as reliable.

Considering the Hadith were often written a considerable amount of time after the death of Mohammed and relied upon hearsay or were even written merely to provide justification for a political point, then yes, I'm saying they aren't reliable.  No more than the Gospels of the New Testament can be considered reliable as they were written between (approximately) 75 and 150 years after the events they describe.   In both religious, considerable editorialising has also occurred to make sure that the written word does not conflict with the orthodoxy of the day.

All this is well known in theology and historical circles.  Why are you ignorant of it?   ::)

gandalf the Muslim


Quote:

The hadith describes her reaching puberty while she was still living with her parents - ie before consummation.

None of the excuses you wrote matter and you failed to provide any valid responses to Baron's points. And here's the doll playing hadith again:

Quote:

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151

Also, she was 9 years old so your lame attempts to say that she had reached pubery are laughable.
Also funny is your belief that Mr. Muhammad was a "prophet of God" and quoting you, I think its a "huge and quite ridiculous assumption" that such a pedophilic violent terrorist was a prophet of God.

Stop defending your Big-Titty promising Pedophile prophet.
(Note the reference to "Big titty promise". This is Quran 78:33 which says Muslims will get large breasted women in Islamic heaven.)
Inspite of me quoting this verse multiple times, the Muslims are too ashamed of their own perverted "holy" book to discuss this verse. Its the big (non-voluptuous) elephant in the room.

Xaseui wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 3:00am:

gandalf the Muslim Quote: The hadith describes her reaching puberty while she was still living with her parents - ie before consummation. None of the excuses you wrote matter and you failed to provide any valid responses to Baron's points. And here's the doll playing hadith again: [quote]Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151

Also, she was 9 years old so your lame attempts to say that she had reached pubery are laughable.
Also funny is your belief that Mr. Muhammad was a "prophet of God" and quoting you, I think its a "huge and quite ridiculous assumption" that such a pedophilic violent terrorist was a prophet of God.

Stop defending your Big-Titty promising Pedophile prophet.
(Note the reference to "Big titty promise". This is Quran 78:33 which says Muslims will get large breasted women in Islamic heaven.)
Inspite of me quoting this verse multiple times, the Muslims are too ashamed of their own perverted "holy" book to discuss this verse. Its the big (non-voluptuous) elephant in the room.[/quote]

Actually, they aren't 'women' in the sense you mean. The houris are a type of angelic being, and are of both sexes, but aren't human.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 3:12am:

Xaseui wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 3:00am: gandalf the Muslim Quote: The hadith describes her reaching puberty while she was still living with her parents - ie before consummation. None of the excuses you wrote matter and you failed to provide any valid responses to Baron's points. And here's the doll playing hadith again: [quote]Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151 Also, she was 9 years old so your lame attempts to say that she had reached pubery are laughable. Also funny is your belief that Mr. Muhammad was a "prophet of God" and quoting you, I think its a "huge and quite ridiculous assumption" that such a pedophilic violent terrorist was a prophet of God. Stop defending your Big-Titty promising Pedophile prophet. (Note the reference to "Big titty promise". This is Quran 78:33 which says Muslims will get large breasted women in Islamic heaven.) Inspite of me quoting this verse multiple times, the Muslims are too ashamed of their own perverted "holy" book to discuss this verse. Its the big (non-voluptuous) elephant in the room.

Actually, they aren't 'women' in the sense you mean. The houris are a type of angelic being, and are of both sexes, but aren't human.[/quote]
Here's another Muslim making excuses for his Big-Titty-promising pedophile terrorist fake prophet.

They are FEMALES (Quran 37:48) and they have LARGE breasts (78:33) and they are VIRGINS (Quran 56:36).

So whats your point? Whats the difference between describing a female virgin "angel" with large breasts, and a human female virgin with large breasts?

I'll give you one large-titty virgin if you can tell me a valid difference between those two concepts.

Give references instead of useless personal opinions.

Xaseui wrote on Nov 25^th, 2013 at 1:11am:

Why are you so afraid of saying whether you're a Muslim or not? Are you embarrassed of being a Muslim?

Undoubtedly!




I would be ashamed to be a moslem.

I would abandon ISLAM.

But very few moslems choose to abandon ISLAM.

'The nature of the beast' ?








+++

Our 'nature' seem to be set for life, by the time we have come to the age of consent.

???


Isaiah 26:10
Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.






Q.
How can men 'learn righteousness' ?

A.
Get back on the path.




Psalms 11:4
The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Yadda wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 10:54am:

I would be ashamed to be a moslem. I would abandon ISLAM. But very few moslems choose to abandon ISLAM.

I was talking to the other guy who was refusing to say whether or not he was a Muslim.
Many people leave Islam but do not say it publicly becuase they know Muhammad ordered Muslims to kill them.

Whats your point of quoting the Bible? You're making an ASS-umption that I'm a Christian. I have no religious beliefs.

Even so, you're mocking Christianity, a beleif system that YOUR Allah revealed and FAILED to protect it for what you Muslims claim as "corruption".
Care to ask Allah why he failed to protect it?

And what do you think of the fact that your prophet promised you woman with BIG TITS if you were a good little Muslim? Thats Quran 78:33. Remember not to bring in bull-sht sugar coated translations by Mr. XYZ.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 28^th, 2013 at 1:13pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 28th, 2013 at 12:52pm: sunnah.com even states she had not reached puberty Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 28th, 2013 at 12:52pm: Islamic websites say she had not gone through puberty at age 14 Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 28th, 2013 at 12:52pm: Multiple sahih hadeeth say Mo banged his child bride before she reached puberty Oops sorry, left one out from the list of your arguments: 5. completely make stuff up about the ahadith. Do you have any shame at all baron? Even just a little bit?

Lets review your so called evidence for aisha reaching puberty-

Quote:

I had seen my parents following Islam since i reached the age of puberty... My father Abu Bakr built a mosque.... www.sunnah.com/bukhari/8/124

Then we have this verse which says the same thing about the mosque yet Aisha does not mention puberty-

Quote:

Since i reached the age which i could remember things... Abu Bakr built a mosque in.... www.sunnah.com/bukhari/39/8

In those 2 verses Aisha mentions her father thinking about and building a mosque, in one verse Aisha mentions puberty and the other says the age which she could remember things, so which one is it did she reach puberty or the age which she could remember things?

Aisha remembers playing with dolls in this sahih hadith which is not allowed for girls who have reached puberty, she said she with with Mo the pedo and not her parents,Mo brought her friends to play it was not her parents, this hadith was after the marriage was consummated which means Aisha had not reached puberty.

Quote:

I used to play with dolls when i was with the messenger of Allah,and he used to bring my friends to play with me (sahih) www.sunnah.com/urn/1263010

Then we look at what al Tabari says about banging prepubescent girls from Quran 65/4

Quote:

The interpretation of this verse 65/4 The same applies to iddah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them www.islamqa.com/en/12708

You were in denial about Mohammad banging his sex slaves, you are in denial about Mo being a pedophile.

Why did Aisha have no children with Mohammad and why have you avoided this question?
Aisha had her first menses around 15-16,Mo died when she was 18, there are hadith where Aisha says Mo has control like no other, perhaps he was suffering from erectile dysfunction in his last 2 years.
Why did Safiyya,Juwairiya and his other wives produce no children, did Mo give them a STD like gonorrhea which made his wives infertile?

Religious people are deaf dumb and blind when it comes to what is written in their so called holy books.

Mohammad had intercourse with a nine year old child,what does medical science say about puberty

Quote:

Menstrual periods: 10 - 16.5 years of age. www.lpch.org/DiseaseHealthInfo/HealthLibrary/adolescent/paf.html

Yadda wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 10:54am:

Xaseui wrote on Nov 25th, 2013 at 1:11am: Why are you so afraid of saying whether you're a Muslim or not? Are you embarrassed of being a Muslim? Undoubtedly! I would be ashamed to be a moslem.

I think most Muslims would be ashamed of you as one of their number as well, Yadda.   ::)

Xaseui wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 11:50am:

Yadda wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 10:54am: I would be ashamed to be a moslem. I would abandon ISLAM. But very few moslems choose to abandon ISLAM. I was talking to the other guy who was refusing to say whether or not he was a Muslim. Many people leave Islam but do not say it publicly becuase they know Muhammad ordered Muslims to kill them. Whats your point of quoting the Bible? You're making an ASS-umption that I'm a Christian. I have no religious beliefs. Even so, you're mocking Christianity, a beleif system that YOUR Allah revealed and FAILED to protect it for what you Muslims claim as "corruption". Care to ask Allah why he failed to protect it? And what do you think of the fact that your prophet promised you woman with BIG TITS if you were a good little Muslim? Thats Quran 78:33. Remember not to bring in bull-sht sugar coated translations by Mr. XYZ.

Xaseui, so let me get this right, you're accusing Yadda of being a Muslim?   ::)  ;D

Are you really so paranoid that everybody who disagrees with you, must be a Muslim?   ::)

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 26^th, 2013 at 12:07pm:

Quote: Narrated `Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty. Not a day passed but the Prophet () visited us, both in the mornings and evenings. My father Abu Bakr thought of building a mosque in the courtyard of his house and he did so. He used to pray and recite the Qur'an in it. The pagan women and their children used to stand by him and look at him with surprise. Abu Bakr was a Softhearted person and could not help weeping while reciting the Qur'an. The chiefs of the Quraish pagans became afraid of that (i.e. that their children and women might be affected by the recitation of Qur'an). - Abu Bakr accepted Islam - Abu Bakr built a mosque in the courtyard of his house - The Prophet visited Aisha every day at her parents house - *ALL* these events happened before the hijra, that is not disputed. - Muhammad's marriage was consummated in Medina - after the hijra, that is not disputed. The hadith *CLEARLY* places the time of her puberty well before her consummation with Muhammad.

wow, such a weighty reason to have sex with 9 y.o.
the baby who is born with teeth, in fact some of them develop teeth in a womb, should then be introduced to solids and red meats from the time of birth?
Fekking nonsense... lightly put.
We should legislate some of these islamic views as criminal offense, this kind of thinking is definitely not healthy!

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 12:18pm:

Lets review your so called evidence for aisha reaching puberty-

Great idea - but I think I have a better one...

How about you address something that is actually relevant to your BS claim that Aisha was prepubescent at time of consummation?

Like say, how about for once you provide evidence for your made up claim that:


Quote:

Multiple sahih hadeeth say Mo banged his child bride before she reached puberty

??

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 3:47pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 12:18pm: Lets review your so called evidence for aisha reaching puberty- Great idea - but I think I have a better one... How about you address something that is actually relevant to your BS claim that Aisha was prepubescent at time of consummation? Like say, how about for once you provide evidence for your made up claim that: Quote: Multiple sahih hadeeth say Mo banged his child bride before she reached puberty ??

How many times do i have to post them in this thread?

You have no evidence Aisha did reach puberty, you are clutching at straws to defend you pedo profit.

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 4:30pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 3:47pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 12:18pm: Lets review your so called evidence for aisha reaching puberty- Great idea - but I think I have a better one... How about you address something that is actually relevant to your BS claim that Aisha was prepubescent at time of consummation? Like say, how about for once you provide evidence for your made up claim that: Quote: Multiple sahih hadeeth say Mo banged his child bride before she reached puberty ?? How many times do i have to post them in this thread? You have no evidence Aisha did reach puberty, you are clutching at straws to defend you pedo profit.

Baron,

Moslems are not interested in what is true [.....if what is true contradicts the moslem worldview.  e.g. 'Mohammed was a righteous man, and the prophet of Allah.']

Moslems are singularly interested, in establishing their own [political] authority, which is always accomplished by crushing and destroying those who contradict and/or oppose the moslem worldview.

Period.



Trying to reason with a moslem [and their non-moslem apologists] is futile.

No matter your argument, or the evidence you may provide,
......YOU, are not a moslem, THEREFORE YOU ARE IN ERROR.

Moslems understand only [political] force.

Reason and truth, are inconsequential to the moslem the kuffar, .....totally.i"Dear muslim, YOU are the kuffar"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1229682951/0#0

Quote:

You who embrace ISLAM, your own lies and deception, have become a witness against you, before God...... "kuffar" = = "...is an Arabic word meaning.....[an unbeliever] a person....who hides, denies, or covers the truth."

Brian Ross wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 2:23pm:

Xaseui wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 11:50am: Yadda wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 10:54am: I would be ashamed to be a moslem. I would abandon ISLAM. But very few moslems choose to abandon ISLAM. I was talking to the other guy who was refusing to say whether or not he was a Muslim. Many people leave Islam but do not say it publicly becuase they know Muhammad ordered Muslims to kill them. Whats your point of quoting the Bible? You're making an ASS-umption that I'm a Christian. I have no religious beliefs. Even so, you're mocking Christianity, a beleif system that YOUR Allah revealed and FAILED to protect it for what you Muslims claim as "corruption". Care to ask Allah why he failed to protect it? And what do you think of the fact that your prophet promised you woman with BIG TITS if you were a good little Muslim? Thats Quran 78:33. Remember not to bring in bull-sht sugar coated translations by Mr. XYZ. Xaseui, so let me get this right, you're accusing Yadda of being a Muslim?   ::)  ;D Are you really so paranoid that everybody who disagrees with you, must be a Muslim?   ::)

As I pointed out multiple times, your pedophile prophet promised you virgins with BIG TITS in Islamic paradise (Quran 78:33).
quran DOT com/78/33

Care to say anything about that?

Xaseui wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 10:05am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 3:12am: Xaseui wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 3:00am: gandalf the Muslim Quote: The hadith describes her reaching puberty while she was still living with her parents - ie before consummation. None of the excuses you wrote matter and you failed to provide any valid responses to Baron's points. And here's the doll playing hadith again: [quote]Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151 Also, she was 9 years old so your lame attempts to say that she had reached pubery are laughable. Also funny is your belief that Mr. Muhammad was a "prophet of God" and quoting you, I think its a "huge and quite ridiculous assumption" that such a pedophilic violent terrorist was a prophet of God. Stop defending your Big-Titty promising Pedophile prophet. (Note the reference to "Big titty promise". This is Quran 78:33 which says Muslims will get large breasted women in Islamic heaven.) Inspite of me quoting this verse multiple times, the Muslims are too ashamed of their own perverted "holy" book to discuss this verse. Its the big (non-voluptuous) elephant in the room. Actually, they aren't 'women' in the sense you mean. The houris are a type of angelic being, and are of both sexes, but aren't human.

Here's another Muslim making excuses for his Big-Titty-promising pedophile terrorist fake prophet.

They are FEMALES (Quran 37:48) and they have LARGE breasts (78:33) and they are VIRGINS (Quran 56:36).

So whats your point? Whats the difference between describing a female virgin "angel" with large breasts, and a human female virgin with large breasts?

I'll give you one large-titty virgin if you can tell me a valid difference between those two concepts.

Give references instead of useless personal opinions.[/quote]

Well I'm NOT a muslim, and I only made the comment to correct a misconception on your part.

Houris ( the 'big titty virgins' you refer to) come in both sexes, male and female, and are created residents or 'staff' of paradise.

As for giving references:

"In Islam, the ḥūr or ḥūrīyah (Arabic: حورية‎) are commonly translated as "(splendid)[1] companions of equal age (well-matched)", "lovely eyed", of "modest gaze", "pure beings" or "companions pure" of paradise, denoting humans and jinn who enter Jannah (paradise) after being recreated anew in the hereafter. Islam also has a strong mystical tradition which places these heavenly delights in the context of the ecstatic awareness of God."

"Some descriptions are more superficial rather than scholarly. For example, "non-menstruating/urinating/defecating and childfree or being able to have a short pregnancy lasting an hour", "with bodies not affected by pregnancy or breast-feeding", "60 cubits (27.5 m or 90 ft) tall", "7 cubits (3.2 m or 10 ft) in width", "transparent to the marrow of their bones", "eternally young", "hairless except the eyebrows and the head", "pure", "beautiful","

Simply put, they're android sex toys..

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 8:11am:

Xaseui wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 10:05am: gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 3:12am: Xaseui wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 3:00am: gandalf the Muslim Quote: The hadith describes her reaching puberty while she was still living with her parents - ie before consummation. None of the excuses you wrote matter and you failed to provide any valid responses to Baron's points. And here's the doll playing hadith again: [quote]Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151 Also, she was 9 years old so your lame attempts to say that she had reached pubery are laughable. Also funny is your belief that Mr. Muhammad was a "prophet of God" and quoting you, I think its a "huge and quite ridiculous assumption" that such a pedophilic violent terrorist was a prophet of God. Stop defending your Big-Titty promising Pedophile prophet. (Note the reference to "Big titty promise". This is Quran 78:33 which says Muslims will get large breasted women in Islamic heaven.) Inspite of me quoting this verse multiple times, the Muslims are too ashamed of their own perverted "holy" book to discuss this verse. Its the big (non-voluptuous) elephant in the room. Actually, they aren't 'women' in the sense you mean. The houris are a type of angelic being, and are of both sexes, but aren't human. Here's another Muslim making excuses for his Big-Titty-promising pedophile terrorist fake prophet. They are FEMALES (Quran 37:48) and they have LARGE breasts (78:33) and they are VIRGINS (Quran 56:36). So whats your point? Whats the difference between describing a female virgin "angel" with large breasts, and a human female virgin with large breasts? I'll give you one large-titty virgin if you can tell me a valid difference between those two concepts. Give references instead of useless personal opinions.

Well I'm NOT a muslim, and I only made the comment to correct a misconception on your part.

Houris ( the 'big titty virgins' you refer to) come in both sexes, male and female, and are created residents or 'staff' of paradise.

As for giving references:

"In Islam, the ḥūr or ḥūrīyah (Arabic: حورية‎) are commonly translated as "(splendid)[1] companions of equal age (well-matched)", "lovely eyed", of "modest gaze", "pure beings" or "companions pure" of paradise, denoting humans and jinn who enter Jannah (paradise) after being recreated anew in the hereafter. Islam also has a strong mystical tradition which places these heavenly delights in the context of the ecstatic awareness of God."

"Some descriptions are more superficial rather than scholarly. For example, "non-menstruating/urinating/defecating and childfree or being able to have a short pregnancy lasting an hour", "with bodies not affected by pregnancy or breast-feeding", "60 cubits (27.5 m or 90 ft) tall", "7 cubits (3.2 m or 10 ft) in width", "transparent to the marrow of their bones", "eternally young", "hairless except the eyebrows and the head", "pure", "beautiful","

Simply put, they're android sex toys..[/quote]
You're probably Muslim or an apologist for Islam, but put that aside for now.
Right -they are sex toys as you said.

As I pointed out Quran EXPLICITLY says that these virgin women will have LARGE BREASTS.
This is not a "superficial" characteristic. It is what it is.

"Male" houris dont have large breasts, ok? What kind of genders have you been exposed to in real life to come to the conclusion that males have large breasts?

Vague general apologetics such as "they are for everyone and are just for enjoyment" is bullshit and you failed to say anything that negated or refuted what I said about 78:33 (them having large breasts).

Xaseui wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 8:16am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 1st, 2013 at 8:11am: Xaseui wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 10:05am: gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 3:12am: Xaseui wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 3:00am: gandalf the Muslim Quote: The hadith describes her reaching puberty while she was still living with her parents - ie before consummation. None of the excuses you wrote matter and you failed to provide any valid responses to Baron's points. And here's the doll playing hadith again: [quote]Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151 Also, she was 9 years old so your lame attempts to say that she had reached pubery are laughable. Also funny is your belief that Mr. Muhammad was a "prophet of God" and quoting you, I think its a "huge and quite ridiculous assumption" that such a pedophilic violent terrorist was a prophet of God. Stop defending your Big-Titty promising Pedophile prophet. (Note the reference to "Big titty promise". This is Quran 78:33 which says Muslims will get large breasted women in Islamic heaven.) Inspite of me quoting this verse multiple times, the Muslims are too ashamed of their own perverted "holy" book to discuss this verse. Its the big (non-voluptuous) elephant in the room. Actually, they aren't 'women' in the sense you mean. The houris are a type of angelic being, and are of both sexes, but aren't human. Here's another Muslim making excuses for his Big-Titty-promising pedophile terrorist fake prophet. They are FEMALES (Quran 37:48) and they have LARGE breasts (78:33) and they are VIRGINS (Quran 56:36). So whats your point? Whats the difference between describing a female virgin "angel" with large breasts, and a human female virgin with large breasts? I'll give you one large-titty virgin if you can tell me a valid difference between those two concepts. Give references instead of useless personal opinions. Well I'm NOT a muslim, and I only made the comment to correct a misconception on your part. Houris ( the 'big titty virgins' you refer to) come in both sexes, male and female, and are created residents or 'staff' of paradise. As for giving references: "In Islam, the ḥūr or ḥūrīyah (Arabic: حورية‎) are commonly translated as "(splendid)[1] companions of equal age (well-matched)", "lovely eyed", of "modest gaze", "pure beings" or "companions pure" of paradise, denoting humans and jinn who enter Jannah (paradise) after being recreated anew in the hereafter. Islam also has a strong mystical tradition which places these heavenly delights in the context of the ecstatic awareness of God." "Some descriptions are more superficial rather than scholarly. For example, "non-menstruating/urinating/defecating and childfree or being able to have a short pregnancy lasting an hour", "with bodies not affected by pregnancy or breast-feeding", "60 cubits (27.5 m or 90 ft) tall", "7 cubits (3.2 m or 10 ft) in width", "transparent to the marrow of their bones", "eternally young", "hairless except the eyebrows and the head", "pure", "beautiful"," Simply put, they're android sex toys..

You're probably Muslim or an apologist for Islam, but put that aside for now.
Right -they are sex toys as you said.

As I pointed out Quran EXPLICITLY says that these virgin women will have LARGE BREASTS.
This is not a "superficial" characteristic. It is what it is.

"Male" houris dont have large breasts, ok? What kind of genders have you been exposed to in real life to come to the conclusion that males have large breasts?

Vague general apologetics such as "they are for everyone and are just for enjoyment" is bullshit and you failed to say anything that negated or refuted what I said about 78:33 (them having large breasts).[/quote]

Neither a muslim, nor an apologist for it. I'm actually an atheist (or lapsed Catholic agnostic, depending on your definitions). That being said, I dislike RADICAL Islam ideas, Jihad, suicide bombing etc. I just don't believe that ALL the people who follow a particular religion are as bad as the small number that get all the press.

And it's not really important whether the houris have large breast or small breasts, is it?
In Middle Eastern culture of the time, and various other cultures as well, large breast were considered evidence of ability to have lots of health children, so the point made about large breasted virgins is just icing on the cake. ( either that or the guy who wrote it really liked big boobies)

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 8:30am:

Neither a muslim, nor an apologist for it. I'm actually an atheist (or lapsed Catholic agnostic, depending on your definitions). That being said, I dislike RADICAL Islam ideas, Jihad, suicide bombing etc. I just don't believe that ALL the people who follow a particular religion are as bad as the small number that get all the press.

Where did I say that all Muslims are bad? Are you stupid? Why are you making assumptions?


Quote:

And it's not really important whether the houris have large breast or small breasts, is it? In Middle Eastern culture of the time, and various other cultures as well, large breast were considered evidence of ability to have lots of health children, so the point made about large breasted virgins is just icing on the cake. ( either that or the guy who wrote it really liked big boobies)

Yes it is important. Their God is making a promise "You be a good boy and you get virgins with BIG TITS".
That is important to point out, alright Muslim.

Stop apologizing for Islam.

If you are an atheist as you claim, wtf is your problem? I'm talking to MUSLIMS and asking them what they think of their God making a promise that they're going to get virgins with big tits.
And you come here claiming you're an atheist and say "oh its not a big deal. Their God was talking about big tits because big tits are healthy for babies, thats all".
You think that's believable?
You're making excuses for Islam and you are a Muslim, so stop lying you are an atheist and gtfo out of this debate because I'm looking for a Muslim response.
And even if you think Allah was talking about BIG TITS in Quran 78:33 because they're healthy for babies, so what? Obviously its still embarrassing for Muslims and it will always be no matter how much they deny it or make excuses like you did.
It is because no Muslim dared to to respond when I brought up 78:33.
If Quran said women will get men with big dicks in Heaven, you the "atheist" (according to yourself) would be here making excuses that Allah made that promise so that the women are more sure to get pregnant when the couple wants to make a baby. Right "atheist"?

So once again lets remember that, as mentioned in Quran 78:33, Allah the Muslim God promised Muslim men virgins with BIG TITS.

Xaseui wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 12:39am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 1st, 2013 at 8:30am: Neither a muslim, nor an apologist for it. I'm actually an atheist (or lapsed Catholic agnostic, depending on your definitions). That being said, I dislike RADICAL Islam ideas, Jihad, suicide bombing etc. I just don't believe that ALL the people who follow a particular religion are as bad as the small number that get all the press. Where did I say that all Muslims are bad? Are you stupid? Why are you making assumptions? Quote: And it's not really important whether the houris have large breast or small breasts, is it? In Middle Eastern culture of the time, and various other cultures as well, large breast were considered evidence of ability to have lots of health children, so the point made about large breasted virgins is just icing on the cake. ( either that or the guy who wrote it really liked big boobies) Yes it is important. Their God is making a promise "You be a good boy and you get virgins with BIG TITS". That is important to point out, alright Muslim. Stop apologizing for Islam. If you are an atheist as you claim, wtf is your problem? I'm talking to MUSLIMS and asking them what they think of their God making a promise that they're going to get virgins with big tits. And you come here claiming you're an atheist and say "oh its not a big deal. Their God was talking about big tits because big tits are healthy for babies, thats all". You think that's believable? You're making excuses for Islam and you are a Muslim, so stop lying you are an atheist and gtfo out of this debate because I'm looking for a Muslim response. And even if you think Allah was talking about BIG TITS in Quran 78:33 because they're healthy for babies, so what? Obviously its still embarrassing for Muslims and it will always be no matter how much they deny it or make excuses like you did. It is because no Muslim dared to to respond when I brought up 78:33. If Quran said women will get men with big dicks in Heaven, you the "atheist" (according to yourself) would be here making excuses that Allah made that promise so that the women are more sure to get pregnant when the couple wants to make a baby. Right "atheist"? So once again lets remember that, as mentioned in Quran 78:33, Allah the Muslim God promised Muslim men virgins with BIG TITS.

If you don't think all muslims are bad, then why are you in such a taking over the offer of big tits??

My comment about not believing all members of a religion are as bad etc applies equally to all religions.
My 'problem' is about accuracy, if you are going to have a go at someone, or some group, it's better to complain about whats really wrong instead of making stuff up, or nitpicking.

Speaking of 'assumptions', it's absolutely amazing the number that the rabid and silly make on these forums. I've been called Jewish ( I'm not) because I don't think Israel should be wiped out, Catholic ( not anymore) because I don't accept the the Inquisition is still going on, or that ALL priest are child molesters,
A Freemason because I said the Pope ISN'T one, in 'the pay' of oil companies because I'm skeptical of AGW ( I wish I was, it'd be great to earn a wage to play on the internet) and NOW, a muslim, because I made a minor correction to your rant.

If I was a member of Islam (which I'm not, again) I'd be concerned about a lot more than the bra size of my promised  companion in the 'Afterlife'...I'd be wondering is the an 'Afterlife' at all.

All religions sweeten the pot by tailoring 'Paradise' to the preferences and habits of the members, that's how you attract followers.
In the case of Islam, that means aiming at male virility, which is demonstrated by the number of children.
The Church of England split from the Catholic Church over divorce rulings.
The Norse religions version of 'Paradise' was centred around feasting and drinking with Odin and co, again a slightly improved 
repeat of what the followers did in life.
Christian 'Paradise' is based on resting, because the Christian religion pushes the concept of working constantly in life, so the followers like to not work in their spare time.

Being an atheist doesn't mean you need to actively confront and attack everyone else's beliefs or attack everyone who doesn't act the same as you.

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 4:30pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 3:47pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 30th, 2013 at 12:18pm: Lets review your so called evidence for aisha reaching puberty- Great idea - but I think I have a better one... How about you address something that is actually relevant to your BS claim that Aisha was prepubescent at time of consummation? Like say, how about for once you provide evidence for your made up claim that: Quote: Multiple sahih hadeeth say Mo banged his child bride before she reached puberty ?? How many times do i have to post them in this thread?

Once would suffice.


Quote:

You have no evidence Aisha did reach puberty, you are clutching at straws to defend you pedo profit.

;D ;D

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 12:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 28th, 2013 at 1:13pm: Do you have any shame at all baron? Even just a little bit? Lets review your so called evidence for aisha reaching puberty- Quote: I had seen my parents following Islam since i reached the age of puberty... My father Abu Bakr built a mosque.... www.sunnah.com/bukhari/8/124 Then we have this verse which says the same thing about the mosque yet Aisha does not mention puberty- [quote]Since i reached the age which i could remember things... Abu Bakr built a mosque in.... www.sunnah.com/bukhari/39/8

In those 2 verses Aisha mentions her father thinking about and building a mosque, in one verse Aisha mentions puberty and the other says the age which she could remember things, so which one is it did she reach puberty or the age which she could remember things?

Aisha remembers playing with dolls in this sahih hadith which is not allowed for girls who have reached puberty, she said she with with Mo the pedo and not her parents,Mo brought her friends to play it was not her parents, this hadith was after the marriage was consummated which means Aisha had not reached puberty.

Quote:

I used to play with dolls when i was with the messenger of Allah,and he used to bring my friends to play with me (sahih) www.sunnah.com/urn/1263010

Then we look at what al Tabari says about banging prepubescent girls from Quran 65/4

Quote:

The interpretation of this verse 65/4 The same applies to iddah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them www.islamqa.com/en/12708

You were in denial about Mohammad banging his sex slaves, you are in denial about Mo being a pedophile.

Why did Aisha have no children with Mohammad and why have you avoided this question?
Aisha had her first menses around 15-16,Mo died when she was 18, there are hadith where Aisha says Mo has control like no other, perhaps he was suffering from erectile dysfunction in his last 2 years.
Why did Safiyya,Juwairiya and his other wives produce no children, did Mo give them a STD like gonorrhea which made his wives infertile?

Religious people are deaf dumb and blind when it comes to what is written in their so called holy books.

Mohammad had intercourse with a nine year old child,what does medical science say about puberty

Quote:

Menstrual periods: 10 - 16.5 years of age. www.lpch.org/DiseaseHealthInfo/HealthLibrary/adolescent/paf.html

[/quote]

When we look at Gandalf's so called evidence for Aisha reaching puberty before that dirty old pedo had intercourse with her aged 9 he is on shaky ground by claiming 8/124 is evidence of anything except perhaps the usual lies and deception from muslims.

The Indonesian translation says-
"Aku belum mengerti kedua orang tuaku kecuali saat keduanya memeluk agama ini"
Which has no mention of puberty  and basically says I haven't known a time when my parents weren't muslim.
So why does the Indonesian translation make no mention of puberty, why does the english translation differ,interesting isn't it?

If we look for the arabic word for puberty you will find it is not in the bukhari verse gandalf claims is evidence of her reaching puberty, so why are muslims like Gandalf claiming that verse mentions puberty,are they ignorant or deliberately deceptive?
Here it is-https://www.google.com.au/#q=arabic+word+for+puberty

This muslim appears to be close to what it really says-

Quote:

I indicated in the hadith it literally mentions her reaching puberty. The hadeeth itself says- That the wife of the profit gathered or attained the age of reasoning Age of reasoning is a euphemism in almost all known languages to refer to a child entering a state of adulthood. Muslim website-www.callingchristians.com/2013/11/01/sam-shamouns-minion-is-as-uneducated-as-he-is/ If you click on the about us- its an Islamic website.

So the only evidence Gandalf has for Aisha reaching puberty does not even mention puberty in the Arabic or Indonesian verses yet for some reason instead of saying the "age of reasoning" it says puberty in the english translation.

Gandalf's only evidence has been refuted,Mo was Pedo and allah demands 20% of all war booty.

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 4:09pm:

This muslim appears to be close to what it really says- Quote: I indicated in the hadith it literally mentions her reaching puberty. The hadeeth itself says- That the wife of the profit gathered or attained the age of reasoning Age of reasoning is a euphemism in almost all known languages to refer to a child entering a state of adulthood.

;D ;D  Right, so let me get this straight Baron, Aisha claims that she entered a "state of adulthood" long before her marriage to Muhammad was consummated.

So one could deduce from this that Aisha was "adult" at the time of consummation  ;D

Tell me Baron, what biological event has universally represented a child entering a state of adulthood across all cultures since time immemorial?

Thanks for supporting my case Baron.

Oh you goose Baron. That guy you quoted on the calling christians site is actually arguing the case that AIsha had reached puberty.


Quote:

That the wife of the Prophet (peace be upon him) gathered or attained the age of reasoning, i.e. puberty. Age of reasoning is a euphemism in almost all known languages to refer to a child entering into a state of adulthood/ sexual maturation

- gee whiz Baron, I wonder why you left out those last two words in your quote?  ;D ;D

and this is what else he said that you seem to have missed:


Quote:

I demonstrated quite simply that she herself admitted to having been in the state of puberty, i.e. sexual maturation – that is to no longer be a child but to now be a young adult in relation to her marriage with the Prophet (peace be upon him).

and again..


Quote:

what I did say is that it is commonly known that children are not responsible for their actions until they are baligh or mature, i.e. attained puberty. Thus when puberty occurs, by this time, they can exercise their mental faculties to differentiate between right and wrong, hence why it is also known as the age of reasoning.

Go back to your cave Baron.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 9:40pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 2nd, 2013 at 4:09pm: This muslim appears to be close to what it really says- Quote: I indicated in the hadith it literally mentions her reaching puberty. The hadeeth itself says- That the wife of the profit gathered or attained the age of reasoning Age of reasoning is a euphemism in almost all known languages to refer to a child entering a state of adulthood. ;D ;D  Right, so let me get this straight Baron, Aisha claims that she entered a "state of adulthood" long before her marriage to Muhammad was consummated. So one could deduce from this that Aisha was "adult" at the time of consummation  ;D Tell me Baron, what biological event has universally represented a child entering a state of adulthood across all cultures since time immemorial? Thanks for supporting my case Baron.

I used your fellow muslims website as evidence the english translation of bukhari by Muhsin Khan does not say puberty, as your brother pointed out he thinks it says age of reason and puts his own spin on it.

There is no mention of puberty in the original arabic or Indonesian translation, it does not even say age of reason.
The literal translation of 8/124 goes- "I was not aware of my parents other than the two of them both acknowledged the religion"
There is no mention of puberty or age of reason in the arabic or Indonesian translation of 8/124.

As for 39/8 which mentions the exact same mosque her father built- "Since i reached the age which i could remember things" the Indonesian translation says she had not reached puberty.
Aku belum lagi baligh ketika bapakku sudah memeluk Islam
"I was not yet at puberty when my father had embraced Islam"

The Indonesian translations of 8/124 and 39/8 destroy the only evidence you thought you had, the original arabic from 8/124 is highlighted.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 9:50pm:

Oh you goose Baron. That guy you quoted on the calling christians site is actually arguing the case that AIsha had reached puberty. Quote: That the wife of the Prophet (peace be upon him) gathered or attained the age of reasoning, i.e. puberty. Age of reasoning is a euphemism in almost all known languages to refer to a child entering into a state of adulthood/ sexual maturation - gee whiz Baron, I wonder why you left out those last two words in your quote?  ;D ;D and this is what else he said that you seem to have missed: [quote] I demonstrated quite simply that she herself admitted to having been in the state of puberty, i.e. sexual maturation – that is to no longer be a child but to now be a young adult in relation to her marriage with the Prophet (peace be upon him).

and again..


Quote:

what I did say is that it is commonly known that children are not responsible for their actions until they are baligh or mature, i.e. attained puberty. Thus when puberty occurs, by this time, they can exercise their mental faculties to differentiate between right and wrong, hence why it is also known as the age of reasoning.

Go back to your cave Baron.[/quote]

I left those words out because the age a child can reason is lower than the age of sexual maturity.

If you want to argue the age a child can reason is also the age when you can have sex with them what can i say, muslims will do anything to justify their pedo $profit.

So what is your evidence,a verse that mentions nothing about puberty or age of reason in the original arabic or Indonesian translation is somehow evidence for what?

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2013 at 12:16am:

I used your fellow muslims website as evidence the english translation of bukhari by Muhsin Khan does not say puberty, as your brother pointed out he thinks it says age of reason and puts his own spin on it. There is no mention of puberty in the original arabic or Indonesian translation, it does not even say age of reason. The literal translation of 8/124 goes- "I was not aware of my parents other than the two of them both acknowledged the religion" There is no mention of puberty or age of reason in the arabic or Indonesian translation of 8/124.

Check your sources Baron. That is not 8/124 being quoted - it is 63/131. Double check the arabic quote that calling christians uses. It is from this hadith, not 8/124.

OK, on further investigation, the arabic phrase in question is used in both hadith. Interesting.

I have asked for further information on another islamic forum:
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?384065-Question-about-bukhari-hadith

lets see what responses we get.

It is 8/124 i have quoted with a correct translation from Arabic,Muhsin Khan has stuffed up the english translation and he has the most common english version of Sahih al Bukhari which everyone seems to quote from.

The Indonesian translations also make no mention of age of reason or puberty in 8/124, with 39/8 the Indonesian translation says she had not reached puberty.

My Pakistani friends are on holidays so i cannot get an opinion on the Urdu translations,I have Indonesian ex muslim friends who have confirmed the Indonesian translation does not mention puberty or age of reason in 8/124 yet it does mention Aisha had not reached puberty in 39/8

So we now have 3 hadeeth that mention the mosque Abu Bakr built with 66/131,39/8 and the incorrect translation by Muhsin Khan in 8/124 mentioning puberty.

Greetings brothers and sisters. I have been waiting for someone to offer evidence that Aisha was in fact female.  Sure we've had plenty of assumptions but no proof. I have read the texts and can find no evidence that the person hiding under that black tent was a female.  It may well be that mohammmmmer married a boy.

Baron why would I care about the Indonesian translation? Its no better than an English translation. Lets wait and see if we can find more information about the actual arabic.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2013 at 9:55am:

Baron why would I care about the Indonesian translation? Its no better than an English translation. Lets wait and see if we can find more information about the actual arabic.

The Indonesian translation of 39/8 says Aisha had not reached puberty, i can see why you dont care for that.

You should ask Ummah.com about the Indonesian translation of 39/8.

The original Arabic in 8/124 does not mention puberty or age of reason,do you want to put money on that? ::)

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2013 at 10:24am:

The original Arabic in 8/124 does not mention puberty or age of reason,do you want to put money on that?

No, because I don't know. Thats why I'm asking for clarification.

Also I don't bet - you should know that Baron.

Xaseui wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 10:05am:

So whats your point? Whats the difference between describing a female virgin "angel" with large breasts, and a human female virgin with large breasts? I'll give you one large-titty virgin if you can tell me a valid difference between those two concepts.

One is usually depicted with wings, one isn't?  One is considered a divine, immortal, mythical being while the other isn't?  One is usually considered perfect and incorruptible and the other isn't?

So, when did I take delivery?   :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D

I'm still waiting for evidence to support those who claim Aisha was female. Aisha may have been a male.

I hereby present a group of photos of people wearing - mostly - the niqab. Can anyone tell me what sex the person residing in those mostly black tents is? In the absence of irrefutable evidence establishing that fact can this topic be closed please.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=the+niqab&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=ZUueUrndIcmdkgW47YDoBw&sqi=2&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=913#imgdii=_

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2013 at 9:14am:

OK, on further investigation, the arabic phrase in question is used in both hadith. Interesting. I have asked for further information on another islamic forum: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?384065-Question-about-bukhari-hadith lets see what responses we get.

I told you what the Arabic says in 8/124, it makes no mention of puberty or age of reason,Your only evidence that Aisha reached puberty is a mistranslation by Muhsin Khan which means you have zip zilch nothing for evidence that Aisha reached puberty before the dirty old pedo had coitus with when she was 9.

In this thread i posted a picture which for some reason is not shown, Abu Rashid did not criticise my Arabic reading skills or translation in this thread
www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1347877013

Lots of people have seen your thread at ummah.com and does it surprise anyone the main reaction is-

Quote:

Mohammad's imaginary friend in the sky Allah speaking- Oh you who have believed,do not ask about things which,if they are shown to you will distress you.... www.quran.com/5/101

39/8 and 63/131 both say Aisha had not reached puberty with the Indonesian translation from sunnah.com,8/124 makes no mention of puberty or even hints at it with the Indonesian translation

When you get a correct translation of 8/124 from Arabic to english instead of that mistranslation by Muhsin Khan your evidence for Aisha reaching puberty has gone missing and there is nothing anyone can do to help you.
Mo was Pedo. :)

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 21^st, 2013 at 1:22pm:

And according to Baron, its ok to trust Aisha regarding the age she claims she was when she got married - but we totally can't trust her regarding the age she claims she was when she went through puberty. Islamophobia - definitely nothing to do with cherry-picking the evidence  :D

Aisha did not say she went through puberty in bukhari 8/124, what does the original Arabic say Gandalf?

;D ;) :) 8-) ::) :'(

OK Baron, but as I've been trying to point out from the very start, this is not my claim to prove. I am not the one claiming Muhammad had sex with a prepubescent girl - and no, the default position is not that she was prepubescent in the absence of any evidence.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 5^th, 2013 at 3:21pm:

OK Baron, but as I've been trying to point out from the very start, this is not my claim to prove. I am not the one claiming Muhammad had sex with a prepubescent girl - and no, the default position is not that she was prepubescent in the absence of any evidence.

The sahih hadeeth say Aisha had her dolls with her when she moved in with pedo $$Profit, they also say she was playing with dolls when she was with the $$Profit and he brought her friends over to play with her, we know prepubescent children are  allowed to play with dolls and she was playing with them after she had coitus with Mo  the pedo.
Aisha had her first menses around 15-16 on the journey to the very first Hajj.
There is ample evidence in this thread, those reading it can decide for themselves.

As for evidence i am still waiting for you to provide it to back your claim the Quran forbids having sex with prepubescent wife.
I guess finding that verse would be like looking for a turd under a rocking horse. ::) 8-)
Link to your outrageous claim you cannot provide evidence for-
www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1379120057/211#211

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 5^th, 2013 at 4:40pm:

As for evidence i am still waiting for you to provide it to back your claim the Quran forbids having sex with prepubescent wife. I guess finding that verse would be like looking for a turd under a rocking horse. Roll Eyes Cool Link to your outrageous claim you cannot provide evidence for- www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1379120057/211#211

I have dealt with these several times. Most recently:


Quote:

The requirement for a girl reaching physical and psychological maturity is mentioned several times in the quran. One particular verse on orphans is often cited as the most relevant here. In addition to this, the quran mandates that the girl must give consent - and with regards to the betrothal of children, the girl has the right to reject the betrothal once she reaches puberty if she decides she doesn't want to go through with it. The clear implication being that a marriage cannot be consummated until the girl reaches puberty. With regard to Muhammad, every one of his wives gave their consent before he married them. And in Aisha's case, he waited 3 years between betrothal and consummation - clearly indicating that he waited until 1. she had reached puberty and 2. was comfortable with the idea of marrying him and gave him her consent.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1379120057/199#199

No you have not, you are starting to sound like Abu.

Cite the verse from here-
www.quran.com

don't  be stupid - the verse is about orphans and its existence is not in dispute. Go google it, I'm sure you can find it.

here you go, here's a pretty good case for what I was saying:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/minimum_age_for_marriage.htm

I'm still waiting for irrefutable proof that Aisha was female. The clock is ticking.

Halla loves facts and proof.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 5^th, 2013 at 3:21pm:

OK Baron, but as I've been trying to point out from the very start, this is not my claim to prove. I am not the one claiming Muhammad had sex with a prepubescent girl - and no, the default position is not that she was prepubescent in the absence of any evidence.

It’s yours to disprove, it seems to me, unless it is of no importance whether Mohammed was a a case of raging priapism.

moses wrote on Nov 20^th, 2013 at 2:54pm:

muhammad only had sex with a little girl, because it's a great lesson for all mankind: if she's nine and you think she's mature enough, you can. (or something equally stupid was the muslim response. on this board recently)

If it bleeds, we can kill it.

Soren wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2014 at 11:24pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 5th, 2013 at 3:21pm: OK Baron, but as I've been trying to point out from the very start, this is not my claim to prove. I am not the one claiming Muhammad had sex with a prepubescent girl - and no, the default position is not that she was prepubescent in the absence of any evidence. It’s yours to disprove, it seems to me, unless it is of no importance whether Mohammed was a a case of raging priapism.

What happened to "innocent until proven guilty", Soren?

Oh, thats right, I forget this about Islam and Muslims, isn't it.  Silly me!   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 1:04am:

Soren wrote on Oct 2nd, 2014 at 11:24pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 5th, 2013 at 3:21pm: OK Baron, but as I've been trying to point out from the very start, this is not my claim to prove. I am not the one claiming Muhammad had sex with a prepubescent girl - and no, the default position is not that she was prepubescent in the absence of any evidence. It’s yours to disprove, it seems to me, unless it is of no importance whether Mohammed was a a case of raging priapism. What happened to "innocent until proven guilty", Soren? Oh, thats right, I forget this about Islam and Muslims, isn't it.  Silly me!   ::)

The Islamic texts say Mo porked Aisha when she was 9.
Sahih hadith-sunnah.com/bukhari/67/69

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 1:04am:

Soren wrote on Oct 2nd, 2014 at 11:24pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 5th, 2013 at 3:21pm: OK Baron, but as I've been trying to point out from the very start, this is not my claim to prove. I am not the one claiming Muhammad had sex with a prepubescent girl - and no, the default position is not that she was prepubescent in the absence of any evidence. It’s yours to disprove, it seems to me, unless it is of no importance whether Mohammed was a a case of raging priapism. What happened to "innocent until proven guilty", Soren? Oh, thats right, I forget this about Islam and Muslims, isn't it.  Silly me!   ::)

Indeed, silly you.
Islam has been proven to be at the heart of endless attrocities. It is not innocent.
And the court of public opinion is not a law court, Brain. Islam is the basis of a lot of disgusting and unacceptable deeds and practices. If you are a muslim the question comes up: how can you be a devotee of something like this?
Nonmuslims hold muslims responsible for the state of Islam. Muslims shape Islam, nobody else.

Soren wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 11:19am:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 4th, 2014 at 1:04am: Soren wrote on Oct 2nd, 2014 at 11:24pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 5th, 2013 at 3:21pm: OK Baron, but as I've been trying to point out from the very start, this is not my claim to prove. I am not the one claiming Muhammad had sex with a prepubescent girl - and no, the default position is not that she was prepubescent in the absence of any evidence. It’s yours to disprove, it seems to me, unless it is of no importance whether Mohammed was a a case of raging priapism. What happened to "innocent until proven guilty", Soren? Oh, thats right, I forget this about Islam and Muslims, isn't it.  Silly me!   ::) Indeed, silly you. Islam has been proven to be at the heart of endless attrocities. It is not innocent. And the court of public opinion is not a law court, Brain.

That’s right. In Australia, the law courts only convict the vegetarian and Armenian ones.

They let the Kurds off scott-free.

Lucky we have the court of public opinion, no?

Nonmuslims hold muslims responsible for the state of Islam. Muslims shape Islam, nobody else. 

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 19^th, 2013 at 4:28pm:

few people would defend a man in his 50's who marries a girl aged 6-9 years old. only muslims and paedophiles.

... as few people would defend slavery, in the United States, in 2014

BOTH must be seen in CONTEXT - as cultural "norms" in their day

Muslims hold Muhammed to be an eternal example for all mankind to follow, not some backwards 7th century Arabian tribal warrior whose deeds are best left in the dark. Gadnalf for example was recently defending Muhammed's genocide an entire Jewish tribe in one day. There are plenty of Muslims around the world who follow Muhammed's example in marrying girls of 9 and even younger. When people try to reform this practice they come up against the brick wall of Islam.

Soren wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 11:19am:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 4th, 2014 at 1:04am: Soren wrote on Oct 2nd, 2014 at 11:24pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 5th, 2013 at 3:21pm: OK Baron, but as I've been trying to point out from the very start, this is not my claim to prove. I am not the one claiming Muhammad had sex with a prepubescent girl - and no, the default position is not that she was prepubescent in the absence of any evidence. It’s yours to disprove, it seems to me, unless it is of no importance whether Mohammed was a a case of raging priapism. What happened to "innocent until proven guilty", Soren? Oh, thats right, I forget this about Islam and Muslims, isn't it.  Silly me!   ::) Indeed, silly you. Islam has been proven to be at the heart of endless attrocities. It is not innocent.

Sure you want to go there?

Christianity, "has been proven to be at the heart of endless attrocities.  It is not innocent",  yet you remain silent on their record.  I wonder why?  No, you keep trying to persecute Muslims for something which occurred 1400 years ago and by the mores of the day was acceptable.  History is littered with examples of marriages contracted and consumated with young brides.  Marriage was often used as a diplomatic and political means of ensuring alliances.  You have been told this many times but you keep attempting to judge what Muhammed did by modern moral standards, FD.   It's silly and it's pointless.    ::)


Quote:

And the court of public opinion is not a law court, Brain. Islam is the basis of a lot of disgusting and unacceptable deeds and practices. If you are a muslim the question comes up: how can you be a devotee of something like this? Nonmuslims hold muslims responsible for the state of Islam. Muslims shape Islam, nobody else.

See my answer above.  You judge people not on the basis of what they do but what what you claim they believe.   That is the basis of persecution.

I'd also suggest that unless you are more even handed in your criticism, I will continue to charge you with bigotry and persecution.   You do not take Christians to task for their failure to "shape Christianity."   You concentrate completely and utterly on Mulims and Islam.    One eyed?  Yes, you are.  You turn a blind-eye to anything Christians do, today in the name of Christianity in favour of attacking Muslims over something that ocurred over 1400 years ago.     ::)

Using that logic, the Islamists are correct to point to the historical record of Christianity in the Crusades.   Do you think that's fair?  I don't.   Both are historical points.   Modern Christians turning a blind eye to cannibalism, persecution and intolerance of other religions and social groups, such as occurred in the Balkans and India and Africa, all on going, FD yet you remain silent on them.   I wonder why?    ::)

Soren wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 12:01pm:

Nonmuslims hold muslims responsible for the state of Islam. Muslims shape Islam, nobody else.

Muslims also shape the history of terrorism in Australia, old boy - especially when those convicted are Christians.

Even terror attacks by Christians against Muslims (the Turkish Consulate bombing and Embassy stabbing) mysteriously shift into acts of Muslim.terror.

That’s the Muselman for you - a shapeshifter. He’s cunning, no?

freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 1:20pm:

Muslims hold Muhammed to be an eternal example for all mankind to follow, not some backwards 7th century Arabian tribal warrior whose deeds are best left in the dark. Gadnalf for example was recently defending Muhammed's genocide an entire Jewish tribe in one day. There are plenty of Muslims around the world who follow Muhammed's example in marrying girls of 9 and even younger. When people try to reform this practice they come up against the brick wall of Islam.

You’ve proven Mo’s paedophilia beyond the shadow of a doubt, FD. Put this thread in the Wiki.

It’s more evidence.

Karnal wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 9:21pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 4th, 2014 at 12:01pm: Nonmuslims hold muslims responsible for the state of Islam. Muslims shape Islam, nobody else.  Muslims also shape the history of terrorism in Australia, old boy - especially when those convicted are Christians. Even terror attacks by Christians against Muslims (the Turkish Consulate bombing and Embassy stabbing) mysteriously shift into acts of Muslim.terror. That’s the Muselman for you - a shapeshifter. He’s cunning, no?

So that evens out the 140 Australians killed around the world in the last decade or so and the many thousands of others killed in the name Islam. Armenian immigrants pissed off with Turkish genocide and its denial bombed the Turks and stabbed a Turk - and that somehow means that muslims are not responsible for Islam.
You are as cravenly dishonest and contemptible as Brain.