freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2014 at 8:54pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 16th, 2014 at 7:24pm: freediver wrote on Mar 16th, 2014 at 6:39pm: Does Islam actually cause them to be pedophiles, or is it the other way round? Seems you have more incites about that than me. Why don't you regale us all once again with Abu's story of sex offending inmates naturally converting to islam. Here's proof I didn't learn everything about Islam from Abu: Malik Shakur wrote on Jun 30th, 2008 at 10:58am: Many people become Muslim in prison, I agree with that. Indigenous Australians tend identify with Islam because of the social justice element as their land was stolen from them. We however really crack down and don't allow people who are extremists or even thought to be extremists to enter the prison system here in Victoria. They have tried but we're quickly kicked out. We work very closely with Corrections Victoria and police on these issues. And from Abu: abu_rashid wrote on Feb 1st, 2009 at 8:13pm: Calanen, Re-read the article again, 30% of the Supermax division of Goulburn Gaol, which houses 34 prisoners. So all you've really told us is that about 11 prisoners are Muslims, some of them converts, ie. people who've seen the light and embraced religion whilst serving time. Funny that when they see the light and embrace Christianity, we see it as a step forward, and they're finally turning over a new leaf. More reasons from Abu on why there are so many Muslims in our jails: abu_rashid wrote on Jun 29th, 2012 at 11:24pm: freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2012 at 1:05pm: Quote: Several Muslims have not only been arrested but convicted and given lengthy gaol terms just for such things. In Australia? Merely for criticising the government's foreign policy? Can you give examples? Pretty much every single Muslim charged with "terrorism" offences has merely been a critic of the government and its policies. They have not actually been convicted of committing any act whatsoever, they merely thought or expressed ideas. Yet you think you live in a system that has unlimited political freedom. You're a dreamer. freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2012 at 1:05pm: [quote]And what great crime exactly did they commit? How many people did they harm? Or perhaps they thought about such a thing right??? But Australia doesn't prosecute for thought crimes, no no no. fd, do you not see the linkage between this point and the previous one? They did not merely think about committing terrorism. They actually started preparing an attack. None of this has anything to do with what you are allowed to say about the government. Which of them actually prepared an attack? Some of them were convicted merely for asking what the Islamic ruling is on committing such acts. This was twisted into "seeking a fatwa to carry out the act", and then bang, half their life wasted in prison.... but never mind, we live in a country of unlimited political freedom, back to your little dreamworld fd. Nevermind the reality, keep ignoring it.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 30^th, 2008 at 3:44am:

Either way, it's got nothing to do with rape, rape is a crime which Islam has absolutely no tolerance for, and has legislated should be punished with the most severe punishments. In Australian society, the punishment is generally nothing more than a few years in gaol, unless you're unlucky enough to be of middle eastern descent and get caught up in media sensationalism, in which case you could be looking at about ten times the average sentence... Justice indeed.

Makes me wonder where Abu is these days.[/quote]


polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 16^th, 2014 at 9:00pm:

whats that FD? No mention of sex offending inmates being the star recruits to islam? Shurely shome mishtake

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2014 at 9:30pm:

I did not attribute that bit to Abu. In hindsight, I should have added terrorists to the list. Islam is very popular among Australians in jail on terrorism charges.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 16^th, 2014 at 10:17pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 16th, 2014 at 9:30pm: I did not attribute that bit to Abu. Ah thats right, you just made that up. My bad.

freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 8:32am:

Are you suggesting Islam would not be more appealing than other religions to pedophiles, thieves and murderers?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 10:43am:

Its interesting though isn't it? Recently you mentioned you started the anti-muslim campaign because you got sick of all the BS claims muslims make. Its interesting because this rabidly islamophobic statement you made here does not seem to be prompted by anything any muslims here said.

By "rabidly Islamophobic" do you mean wrong, or merely politically incorrect? My statements about Muslims being over-represented in our jail population was prompted directly by things that Muslims have posted here. The suggestion that Islam may appeal more than other religions to pedophiles, thieves and murderers is based on the fact that Muhammed himself was a pedophile, thief and murderer. Most religions get all moral about that sort of thing. Muslims on the other hand go to great lengths to excuse and justify it. I can just imagine Malik in a Victorian jail explaining why it was OK for Muhammed to rob caravans, have sex with 9 year old girls, and kill people who mocked him, and the inmates suddenly finding religion a lot more palatable.

Obviously I would not expect Muslims to put it that way.

off-topic post removed.

FD, get back to me when you understand what the term "pedophile" actually means.

Also, that OP just makes you look like a raving lunatic. You have basically become the exact caricature that you yourself were railing against in 2007.

Growing Faith: Prisons, Hip-Hop and Islam

Islam is described as the fastest growing religion in the U.S. There are various factors that contribute to this phenomenon, including immigrants arriving in recent decades from Muslim countries, including India, Pakistan, and in the Middle East. In addition, many individuals convert to Islam. This is particularly true among African Americans and more recently, Latinos.

Why is conversion so prevalent among these groups? The answer to this question is complicated and involves ideological factors, such as attraction to Islam's message of peace and social justice. Some are attracted by the cultural links among Islam, Africa, and Moorish Spain. Still others embrace the faith as a way of distancing themselves from Christianity. But what facilitates their conversion, practically?

Two important but often overlooked factors are prisons and hip-hop music, which are deeply interconnected. In fact, hip-hop culture's very birth in the U.S. coincided with an incarceration explosion in the 1970s. The harsh impacts of imprisonment would become an ever-present menace to the hip hop generation, which felt the first-hand effects of losing friends and family to the "belly of the beast." Imprisonment would go on to become a multi-billion dollar industry with two million inmates and counting, at roughly the same time hip hop grew into a multi-billion dollar industry of its own.

As African Americans began consuming hip-hop music, prisons began consuming African Americans. This dramatic prison expansion led the U.S. to become home to the largest prison population in the world, with African Americans consisting of nearly half of those imprisoned.

Prisons would also become major centers for Islamic outreach. Today, prison officials, prison chaplains and scholars claim that Islam is the fastest growing religion behind bars. Although there are no reliable statistics, estimates suggest that 35,000-40,000 inmates convert to Islam each year, and nationwide, it is estimated that 15 percent of the U.S. prison population is Muslim, or as much as 350,000 current Muslim inmates.

Islam's growth in prison is matched only by its influence on hip-hop culture. For many young Americans, hip-hop leads to their first encounter with Islam. Although listeners are not always aware of the religious underpinnings, hip-hop music has brought Islamic artists, themes and symbols to the center of American pop culture. Groups identifying with Islam include classical heavyweights like Afrika Bambaataa, Public Enemy and Rakim, and include more modern acts like WuTang Clan, Erykah Badu, Busta Rhymes and Mos Def.

But this just scratches the surface.

Hip-hop's influence among prisoners is noteworthy, and for some who turn to Islam in prison, a foundation for conversion was likely set long before they stepped through the prison gates. For decades, musical motifs involving Islam, both doctrinal and heterodox, have been setting the table and providing a cultural context for conversion.

In hip-hop music, the prison has been and remains a focus of resistance. Early on, the horrors of imprisonment were brought to life by Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five's "The Message," a song that tells of a young man's prison experience that leads to rape, sex slavery and his own suicide-hanging. Later, the cover of Public Enemy's 1988 album, It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back, would make a critical statement by depicting rappers Chuck D. and Flavor Flav behind bars.

Hip-hop lyrics illustrate a deep consciousness of prisons. In some songs, there are shout-outs to incarcerated Muslims and words of encouragement, as in Brother Ali's "Shadows on the Sun": "Tell my man Hasim in prison keep grinnin' because he's innocent, and tell him that the tests we get are heaven-sent." At other times, an entire song or album can revolve around prison themes, as in No More Prisons Volume I and its sequel, Volume II, which each features a roster of Muslim rappers. Sometimes the lyrics take radical tones like DJ Krush & Company Flow's Vision of Art: "Unsheathe the jihad blade and become animalistic, authority walks the plank, that's implicit, the shambles of the gifted, dismantled and imprisoned."

Prisons and hip-hop music contribute to Islam's status as the fastest growing religion in the country. In prison, Islam continues to attract a vibrant following and prisons have made the African-American male convert a staple of African Americana, from Malcolm X to H. Rap Brown to Mike Tyson. Likewise, hip hop music has been fertilizer for the greening of America, comparable to reggae music's role in propagating the Rastafarian faith. Often described as the "official religion" of hip-hop, Islam continues to influence the music, which shows no signs of diminishing anytime soon.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 12:59pm:

FD, get back to me when you understand what the term "pedophile" actually means. Also, that OP just makes you look like a raving lunatic. You have basically become the exact caricature that you yourself were railing against in 2007.

No no, FD has caricature.

He's become a Karmic Khristian. He's been reading Y's posts, you see.

At least someone has.

wally1 wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 1:00pm:

Growing Faith: Prisons, Hip-Hop and Islam

See? Proof right there.

If you read the entire article, it goes on to say that islam is popular in US prisons because of Prophet Muhammad's example of robbing, murder and pedophilia.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 1:35pm:

wally1 wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 1:00pm: Growing Faith: Prisons, Hip-Hop and Islam See? Proof right there. If you read the entire article, it goes on to say that islam is popular in US prisons because of Prophet Muhammad's example of robbing, murder and pedophilia.

yeah I agree that fakediver doesn't have any legs to stand to give a viable counter attack.

You got to wonder what the pastors do when they visit jails.Seems like no-one is listening to there message.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 1:35pm:

wally1 wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 1:00pm: Growing Faith: Prisons, Hip-Hop and Islam See? Proof right there. If you read the entire article, it goes on to say that islam is popular in US prisons because of Prophet Muhammad's example of robbing, murder and pedophilia.

True. It mightn't say that in so many words, but it should.

Put it in the Wiki, FD.

wally1 wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 1:00pm:

Growing Faith: Prisons, Hip-Hop and Islam Islam is described as the fastest growing religion in the U.S. Why is conversion so prevalent among these groups? The answer to this question is complicated and involves ideological factors, such as attraction to Islam's message of peace and social justice.

;D ;D ;D

'Social justice'

Thanks for the belly-laugh, Waleed!

They're looking for 'social justice'. These Negroes and Hispanics are in jail precisely because they denied their victims 'social justice'.

It's phoney respectability these criminal converts are hoping to clad themselves in ~~~ and an early parole for 'having seen the Light' as born-again Muslims.

What a racket.

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 4:36pm:

wally1 wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 1:00pm: Growing Faith: Prisons, Hip-Hop and Islam Islam is described as the fastest growing religion in the U.S. Why is conversion so prevalent among these groups? The answer to this question is complicated and involves ideological factors, such as attraction to Islam's message of peace and social justice. ;D ;D ;D 'Social justice' Thanks for the belly-laugh, Waleed! They're looking for 'social justice'. These Negroes and Hispanics are in jail precisely because they denied their victims 'social justice'. It's phoney respectability these criminal converts are hoping to clad themselves in ~~~ and an early parole for 'having seen the Light' as born-again Muslims. What a racket.

I did give my personal reason why inmates may be coverting to islam but saddam Hussein here edited my post.

wally1 wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 4:51pm:

I did give my personal reason why inmates may be coverting to islam but saddam Hussein here edited my post.

I deleted a derogatory comment about christianity because its irrelevant.

See if you can make an argument in defense of islam without needlessly bashing christianity.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 4:57pm:

wally1 wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 4:51pm: I did give my personal reason why inmates may be coverting to islam but saddam Hussein here edited my post. I deleted a derogatory comment about christianity because its irrelevant. See if you can make an argument in defense of islam without needlessly bashing christianity.

I didn't bash christianity.

I just presented the ideological false hood of Christianity which is leading people away from Christianity, something reverts around the world also agree to aswell.

wally1 wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 5:09pm:

I didn't bash christianity. I just presented the ideological false hood of Christianity

;D - I didn't bash christianity, I just mocked the belief system that forms the basis of christianity.

Let me put it this way then, "presenting the ideological falsehood of christianity" (aka bashing christianity) as a way of defending muslims, is irrelevant, off-topic, and as such will likely to get deleted on this forum.

Anybody that believes in things written in books by people dead for a thousand years really have to get their heads examined.

Sparky wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 5:52pm:

Anybody that believes in things written in books by people dead for a thousand years really have to get their heads examined.

Righto then, we'll just discard our knowledge of the Peloponnesian war because it comes from a historian "dead for (over) a thousand years" then shall we?

Gandalf, Karnal (and even you wally, if you can get it past the censor), do you have an alternative explanation for why Islam does so well in prisons? Why is it unreasonable to suggest that it may have something to do with the fact that Muhammed legitimised many of the activities that landed these people in jail? He got away with a long career robbing caravans. He had a massive harem, including girls as young as 9. He killed anyone who dissed him in public. He blamed it all on the society around him for mistreating him and he never took responsibility for his own misdeeds. He had a huge following. He was the ultimate gangsta.

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 4:36pm:

wally1 wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 1:00pm: Growing Faith: Prisons, Hip-Hop and Islam Islam is described as the fastest growing religion in the U.S. Why is conversion so prevalent among these groups? The answer to this question is complicated and involves ideological factors, such as attraction to Islam's message of peace and social justice. ;D ;D ;D 'Social justice' Thanks for the belly-laugh, Waleed! They're looking for 'social justice'. These Negroes and Hispanics are in jail precisely because they denied their victims 'social justice'.

Victims? Most of them are in jail for posessing a crack pipe - if that.

The US has the highest prison population in the world - with most for drugs.

Victims - that’s a belly laugh in the US justice system. Many states have three strikes sentencing.

That’s three crack pipes and you get life.

Victims - thanks for the chuckle, Herbie.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 4:57pm:

wally1 wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 4:51pm: I did give my personal reason why inmates may be coverting to islam but saddam Hussein here edited my post. I deleted a derogatory comment about christianity because its irrelevant. See if you can make an argument in defense of islam without needlessly bashing christianity.

You leave much worse beat ups of Islam.

I must admit, Wally’s post was Islamicly dumb.

But not offensive.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 5:48pm:

wally1 wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 5:09pm: I didn't bash christianity. I just presented the ideological false hood of Christianity ;D - I didn't bash christianity, I just mocked the belief system that forms the basis of christianity. Let me put it this way then, "presenting the ideological falsehood of christianity" (aka bashing christianity) as a way of defending muslims, is irrelevant, off-topic, and as such will likely to get deleted on this forum.

And so it should. If you’re of the faith, be a grown-up and do the job without beating up other religions.

It’s almost as dumb as FD’s campaign.

freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 6:12pm:

Gandalf, Karnal (and even you wally, if you can get it past the censor), do you have an alternative explanation for why Islam does so well in prisons? Why is it unreasonable to suggest that it may have something to do with the fact that Muhammed legitimised many of the activities that landed these people in jail? He got away with a long career robbing caravans. He had a massive harem, including girls as young as 9. He killed anyone who dissed him in public. He blamed it all on the society around him for mistreating him and he never took responsibility for his own misdeeds. He had a huge following. He was the ultimate gangsta.

No idea. In Christian countries, Christianity does well in prisons. In Buddhist countries, Buddhism does well. In Muslim countries...

Have a guess, FD.

Have two!

wally1 wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 5:09pm:

I didn't bash christianity.

You can 'bash' Christianity and any other system of belief, ideology, philosophy, cult, and Dreamtime tradition as much as you like so far as I'm concerned, Wally.

I'm on your side with this.

When prohibitions are placed upon the freedom to express critical analysis of cultural artefacts such as religion ~ then intellectual freedom is being stifled in the service of those who want to exercise political power through religious superstition.

 

Karnal wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 7:13pm:

And so it should. If you’re of the faith, be a grown-up and do the job without beating up other religions. It’s almost as dumb as FD’s campaign.

You leave Waleed alone. He's doing fine without you.

Carry on, Wally. Don't pay any attentions to these bozos.  8-)

Karnal wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 7:16pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 6:12pm: Gandalf, Karnal (and even you wally, if you can get it past the censor), do you have an alternative explanation for why Islam does so well in prisons? Why is it unreasonable to suggest that it may have something to do with the fact that Muhammed legitimised many of the activities that landed these people in jail? He got away with a long career robbing caravans. He had a massive harem, including girls as young as 9. He killed anyone who dissed him in public. He blamed it all on the society around him for mistreating him and he never took responsibility for his own misdeeds. He had a huge following. He was the ultimate gangsta. No idea. In Christian countries, Christianity does well in prisons. In Buddhist countries, Buddhism does well. In Muslim countries... Have a guess, FD. Have two!

Islam is not doing well in Australian prisons because we are a Muslim country.

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 7:21pm:

wally1 wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 5:09pm: I didn't bash christianity. You can 'bash' Christianity and any other system of belief, ideology, philosophy, cult, and Dreamtime tradition as much as you like so far as I'm concerned, Wally. I'm on your side with this. When prohibitions are placed upon the freedom to express critical analysis of cultural artefacts such as religion ~ then intellectual freedom is being stifled in the service of those who want to exercise political power through religious superstition.

Get off your high horse Herb, it wasn't deleted because its offensive, it was deleted because it was off-topic. Other places I have allowed discussion of christian doctrine, but on a thread about muslims in prison, it is entirely irrelevant.

Gandalf likes to maintain strict control of the topic. I have fallen victim to this also, and cannot make any sense of it. I have no idea why he allowed this thread to stay. Normally he would have nuked it by now. I think I have about a 10% success rate in starting new threads here lately.

freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 7:30pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 7:16pm: freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 6:12pm: Gandalf, Karnal (and even you wally, if you can get it past the censor), do you have an alternative explanation for why Islam does so well in prisons? Why is it unreasonable to suggest that it may have something to do with the fact that Muhammed legitimised many of the activities that landed these people in jail? He got away with a long career robbing caravans. He had a massive harem, including girls as young as 9. He killed anyone who dissed him in public. He blamed it all on the society around him for mistreating him and he never took responsibility for his own misdeeds. He had a huge following. He was the ultimate gangsta. No idea. In Christian countries, Christianity does well in prisons. In Buddhist countries, Buddhism does well. In Muslim countries... Have a guess, FD. Have two! Islam is not doing well in Australian prisons because we are a Muslim country.

Is it?

freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 7:32pm:

Gandalf likes to maintain strict control of the topic. I have fallen victim to this also, and cannot make any sense of it. I have no idea why he allowed this thread to stay. Normally he would have nuked it by now.

I’m.surprised he didn’t.

Wally’s post was about Christianity being nonsense because they worship the son of Gud and have a trinity.

I don’t disagree with him, but it was Islamic intolerance.

And your beloved Moderator culled it.

Happy now?

I'm always happy.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 7:31pm:

Get off your high horse Herb, it wasn't deleted because its offensive, it was deleted because it was off-topic.

It was a strategic removal so you could claim a precedent if someone should later criticise Islam.


polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 7:31pm:

Other places I have allowed discussion of christian doctrine, but on a thread about muslims in prison, it is entirely irrelevant.

Wrong.

In explaining a position it's often necessary to draw comparisons with other creeds and ideologies in order to give perspective.

freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 6:12pm:

Gandalf, Karnal (and even you wally, if you can get it past the censor), do you have an alternative explanation for why Islam does so well in prisons? Why is it unreasonable to suggest that it may have something to do with the fact that Muhammed legitimised many of the activities that landed these people in jail? He got away with a long career robbing caravans. He had a massive harem, including girls as young as 9. He killed anyone who dissed him in public. He blamed it all on the society around him for mistreating him and he never took responsibility for his own misdeeds. He had a huge following. He was the ultimate gangsta.

1. I don't even know if your claim that islam does well in prisons is even true. Abu certainly doesn't say that from the quotes you posted, and all Malik says is "Many people become Muslim in prison" - which is not saying what you are saying. So you could start by explaining where this claim actually comes from. Certainly not from the quotes you posted.

2. I'd be very surprised if rates of converts to islam was higher than rates of converts to christianity in western prisons. And if it wasn't, then that surely puts a pretty big dent in your little theory.

3. Is it more likely that inmates are drawn to islam because of Muhammad's "example" of violence and mayhem, or because they are overwhelmingly members of an underprivileged, lower socio-economic class, and are drawn to Muhammad's socialist message of standing up for the downtrodden and poor? Food for thought.

Quote:

1. I don't even know if your claim that islam does well in prisons is even true. Abu certainly doesn't say that from the quotes you posted, and all Malik says is "Many people become Muslim in prison" - which is not saying what you are saying. So you could start by explaining where this claim actually comes from. Certainly not from the quotes you posted.

Some examples:

100% of Australians in jail on terrorism charges are Muslims.

30% of the Supermax division of Goulburn Gaol are Muslims. This may be doubling up on the terrorism bit.

According to Abu there are also plenty of Muslim rapists, due to judges discriminating against Muslims by giving them longer sentences.

According to the article posted by Wally, Islam is the fastest growing religion in US jails.


Quote:

2. I'd be very surprised if rates of converts to islam was higher than rates of converts to christianity in western prisons. And if it wasn't, then that surely puts a pretty big dent in your little theory.

Not if you mean in an absolute sense. As per Karnal's point, you would expect the conversion rates to reflect the prevalence of the religion in society.


Quote:

Is it more likely that inmates are drawn to islam because of Muhammad's "example" of violence and mayhem, or because they are overwhelmingly members of an underprivileged, lower socio-economic class, and are drawn to Muhammad's socialist message of standing up for the downtrodden and poor? Food for thought.

Muhammed was the one making people poor and treading all over them. He created a caste system with Muslims on top, Christians and Jews in the middle, and Pagans on the bottom (usually six feet under). What draws the inmates is not equality, but the idea of being on top, even if it is all in their head. Islam has nothing to do with equality. It is a cult of superiority, which worked fine when the Muslims were actually on top, but has been disastrous for them ever since (except of course when it comes to recruiting people in jail).

freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 9:39pm:

Some examples: 100% of Australians in jail on terrorism charges are Muslims. 30% of the Supermax division of Goulburn Gaol are Muslims. This may be doubling up on the terrorism bit. According to Abu there are also plenty of Muslim rapists, due to judges discriminating against Muslims by giving them longer sentences.

We're talking about inmates who convert in prison - not those who are born muslim - which most of these would be.


freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 9:39pm:

According to the article posted by Wally, Islam is the fastest growing religion in US jails.

Due in large part to muslim immigrants from Pakistan and India.

As for the converts, the article is about islam in the context of the hip-hop culture - which is based around a cult of victimhood and perceived persecution by authority. Not a "I want me some bitches to rape just like my Mo-man" culture.


freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2014 at 9:39pm:

Muhammed was the one making people poor and treading all over them. He created a caste system with Muslims on top, Christians and Jews in the middle, and Pagans on the bottom (usually six feet under). What draws the inmates is not equality, but the idea of being on top, even if it is all in their head. Islam has nothing to do with equality. It is a cult of superiority, which worked fine when the Muslims were actually on top, but has been disastrous for them ever since (except of course when it comes to recruiting people in jail).

Yes we all know your little meme FD. Yet the evidence Wally posted indicates that conversion amongst US inmates has nothing to do with that. Its far easier to believe that inmates who convert to any religion do so because they have some moment of spiritual awakening, and have a genuine motivation to reform themselves. It really doesn't make sense that inmates would want to take up religion because they want to channel their evil into some satanic cult. An evil person who gets along just fine committing evil without religion has no reason to take up religion in order to continue committing evil.

Quote:

We're talking about inmates who convert in prison - not those who are born muslim - which most of these would be.

You are getting a bit anal about controlling the topic Gandalf. Consider this, would you be happy for me to start a new thread on people who are already Muslims ending up in jail? You can't have it both ways. If you want to restrict you threads, it will make the topics covered in existing threads broader. If you want to restrict the topics of existing threads, people will start new ones for the tangents. Unless of course your goal is to shut down discussion altogether. Consider also that I raised this aspect in the opening thread.


Quote:

Due in large part to muslim immigrants from Pakistan and India.

Straight into American jails? Or do they end up in jail because they are tinted?


Quote:

As for the converts, the article is about islam in the context of the hip-hop culture - which is based around a cult of victimhood and perceived persecution by authority.

Why does that sound so familiar?


Quote:

Yes we all know your little meme FD.

It is true though, isn't it? The society Muhammed created was not based on equality. It was the rejection of equality. The pre-Islamic Arab society was far more equal. Islam was a massive retrograde step in this regard.


Quote:

Yet the evidence Wally posted indicates that conversion amongst US inmates has nothing to do with that. Its far easier to believe that inmates who convert to any religion do so because they have some moment of spiritual awakening, and have a genuine motivation to reform themselves.

False dichotomy. There still has to be something appealing about the religion, beyond 'let's awaken your spirit'.


Quote:

It really doesn't make sense that inmates would want to take up religion because they want to channel their evil into some satanic cult. An evil person who gets along just fine committing evil without religion has no reason to take up religion in order to continue committing evil.

This is not what I am arguing.

I think Falah's little fantasy about Australian Aboriginal military superiority is targeted at the same demographic.

aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1341787168

It would be nice if it was about equality, but it isn't. It is classic Islam, combining violence, delusions of superiority, and mind boggling stupidity. He explains that aborigines should have been more violent towards European immigrants, not less, and that this would have resulted in more rights and better treatment for them.

Do you think that this sort of nonsense might help to soften up a depressed aboriginal inmate for a spiritual awakening?

Abu made similar arguments, for example insisting that Palestinians should continue firing rockets into Israel because they must keep the war going, because a great Islamic victory is inevitable and just around the corner.

freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2014 at 12:53pm:

You are getting a bit anal about controlling the topic Gandalf. Consider this, would you be happy for me to start a new thread on people who are already Muslims ending up in jail?

Ok, thats my bad. I got confused seeing Malik's quote about converts.

Yes, muslims are overrepresented in gaols - at least in Australia. I think its pretty obvious the reasons are for the same reasons Aborigines are overrepresented, and it has everything to do with socio-economic backgrounds, and little to do with religious background. The largest Australian muslim group is those that hale from Lebanon, who have a long history of poverty and unemployment in the poor areas of western Sydney especially. Many of them gravitate towards drugs and crime and gangs - and then end up in gaol. I have spoken about this before, you may recall.

Its basically kindergarten logic to blame islam for this given what we know about the link between socio-economic conditions and crime. Its about as sensible as blaming budhism for the Vietnamese triads in Cabramatta during the 90s, or communism for the chinese slavery and prostitution rings that run rife in Sydney today.

One good way of debunking your silly theory, which I mentioned to Herbert a while ago (yes thats right, you really are arguing on the same level as Herb), is to look at the high proportion of muslim inmates who are from that low socio-economic environment I just mentioned, and the proportion who are from more affluent muslim communities - who I might add are far more devout than the bros from Bankstown or Punchbowl.

Question worth pondering over - besides the dozen or so prisoners on terror-related charges, how many actual card-carrying quran bashing 5-prayer-a-day muslims are in gaol? Are these people - who really would give a crap about Muhammad's example - overrepresented, or underrepresented in Australian prisons?

Food for thought.

Who cares what religion you are, if you do the crime you do the time.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 18^th, 2014 at 1:31pm:

Yes, muslims are overrepresented in gaols - at least in Australia. I think its pretty obvious the reasons are for the same reasons Aborigines are overrepresented, and it has everything to do with socio-economic backgrounds, and little to do with religious background. The largest Australian muslim group is those that hale from Lebanon, who have a long history of poverty and unemployment in the poor areas of western Sydney especially.

What a white-wash.

The Sydney Muslims live in Sydney's inner-suburbs which are the most expensive residential properties to buy or to rent, except for the North Shore leafy suburbs.

By choice they live a lifestyle on the dole, in houses that they pack full with relatives all sucking on some kind of welfare rort. They commit crime to supplement their bludging life-style off the Australian taxpayer ~ the same as the Redfern ghetto-aborigines have being doing since they first collected there in any number.

Dole ... drugs dealing ... jail .... dole ... drugs dealing ... jail ... dole ...

It's a life-style choice that has absolutely nothing to do with 'victimhood', but everything to do with 'hood'.

And all the while, they have the 'gandalfs' out here trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes by presenting a false picture of 'hardship', 'poverty', 'discrimination', 'victimhood', 'racism' and bugger knows what else you'd like to pull out of the hat.

You're as bad as they are for trying to do a bullshit PR job for them.

wally1 wrote on Mar 18^th, 2014 at 2:45pm:

Who cares what religion you are, if you do the crime you do the time.

Excuse me, you take that back. That’s not the way it works around here, thank you very much.

Moderator, ban this one immediately. We won’t have his spineless apologetics here.

Quote:

Yes, muslims are overrepresented in gaols - at least in Australia.

By how much?


Quote:

I think its pretty obvious the reasons are for the same reasons Aborigines are overrepresented, and it has everything to do with socio-economic backgrounds

There are plenty of Australians from low socioeconomic backgrounds. What makes the Muslims so special? What Australian Muslim group has been treated as badly as the aborigines?


Quote:

One good way of debunking your silly theory, which I mentioned to Herbert a while ago (yes thats right, you really are arguing on the same level as Herb), is to look at the high proportion of muslim inmates who are from that low socio-economic environment I just mentioned, and the proportion who are from more affluent muslim communities - who I might add are far more devout than the bros from Bankstown or Punchbowl.

Have you looked? Or is this like your previous attempts to dismiss census data about Muslims as being statistically insignificant?

Have you looked, FD?

No Karnal. It is Gandalf's story. He can tell it.

freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2014 at 1:03pm:

I think Falah's little fantasy about Australian Aboriginal military superiority is targeted at the same demographic. aboriginal muslim scholars of the 1600's http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1341787168 It would be nice if it was about equality, but it isn't. It is classic Islam, combining violence, delusions of superiority, and mind boggling stupidity. He explains that aborigines should have been more violent towards European immigrants, not less, and that this would have resulted in more rights and better treatment for them. Do you think that this sort of nonsense might help to soften up a depressed aboriginal inmate for a spiritual awakening? Abu made similar arguments, for example insisting that Palestinians should continue firing rockets into Israel because they must keep the war going, because a great Islamic victory is inevitable and just around the corner.

The Muslim is using the aborigine as muscle against the white man.

No no, it’s your story. I  read it. Are you saying you don’t know if Muslims are statistically insignificant or not?

freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2014 at 6:47pm:

Have you looked? Or is this like your previous attempts to dismiss census data about Muslims as being statistically insignificant?

Have I looked to see if prisons are overwhelmed by people - including muslims from poor socio-economic regions? Why yes I  have FD. Thats pretty elementary stuff.

But I would have thought that its this claim that needs to be looked at with evidence:

"The suggestion that Islam may appeal more than other religions to pedophiles, thieves and murderers is based on the fact that Muhammed himself was a pedophile, thief and murderer."

- seeing as this thread is about muslims inmates, it might help to establish some kind of evidenced-based link no?

Needless to say, for many who convert to Islam it's a protest against white-majority society and is entirely political and racist in nature.

There's also the element of having joined a boutique 'gang' whose common denominator is Islam and its antipathy towards White Western society.

And you get to grow a beard, and wear funny hats, and maybe a caftan ... all 'cool' to the sort of black, borderline imbeciles who end up in jails.

Suddenly, from being losers and social outcasts as habitual criminals, they can now wrap themselves in a cloak of 'respectability', courtesy of Islam.

It's just another version of, well ...

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/ruffdiamond/ruffdiamond035/pig2_zps98010472.png

Quote:

Have I looked to see if prisons are overwhelmed by people - including muslims from poor socio-economic regions? Why yes I  have FD. Thats pretty elementary stuff.

Can the large numbers of Muslims in jail be attributed entirely to socio-economic background? Or did you merely find that there was a strong correlation with both poverty and Islam? You did not merely suggest that both are associated, you suggested that it was poverty rather than Islam that is the cause the the trend that you yourself acknowledged. You offered poverty as an excuse for all the Muslims in jail. Can you justify that?


Quote:

But I would have thought that its this claim that needs to be looked at with evidence: "The suggestion that Islam may appeal more than other religions to pedophiles, thieves and murderers is based on the fact that Muhammed himself was a pedophile, thief and murderer." - seeing as this thread is about muslims inmates, it might help to establish some kind of evidenced-based link no?

Yes.

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 12:49pm:

You did not merely suggest that both are associated, you suggested that it was poverty rather than Islam that is the cause the the trend that you yourself acknowledged. You offered poverty as an excuse for all the Muslims in jail. Can you justify that?

Sure. Muslims in Australia are about twice as likely to be unemployed and in poverty than non-muslim Australians (source). Longitudinal studies have demonstrated a direct causal link between both unemployment and poverty (some references here under section 'Poverty and Unemployment'.) Other prison populations - most notably Aborigines - provide further support for this link.

It would be silly to suggest that even though:
a) the causal link between poverty and unemployment rates and prison rates is well known
b) muslims are overrepresented in both poverty and unemployment in the general community
c) we don't question the socio-economic factors of Aboriginal high-prison rates

- ...muslims must be overrepresented in Australian prisons for some other unrelated reason that we have no evidence for :p

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 2:10pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 19th, 2014 at 12:49pm: You did not merely suggest that both are associated, you suggested that it was poverty rather than Islam that is the cause the the trend that you yourself acknowledged. You offered poverty as an excuse for all the Muslims in jail. Can you justify that? Sure. Muslims in Australia are about twice as likely to be unemployed and in poverty than non-muslim Australians (source). Longitudinal studies have demonstrated a direct causal link between both unemployment and poverty (some references here under section 'Poverty and Unemployment'.) Other prison populations - most notably Aborigines - provide further support for this link. It would be silly to suggest that even though: a) the causal link between poverty and unemployment rates and prison rates is well known b) muslims are overrepresented in both poverty and unemployment in the general community c) we don't question the socio-economic factors of Aboriginal high-prison rates - ...muslims must be overrepresented in Australian prisons for some other unrelated reason that we have no evidence for :p

They thought they could get along by doing what they wanted. Don't try at school Achmed, that's Christian brainwashing etc. The Vietnamese arrived earlier than the Muslim Lebanese and they are cruising.

Sparky wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 3:27pm:

The Vietnamese arrived earlier than the Muslim Lebanese

um no.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 4:49pm:

Sparky wrote on Mar 19th, 2014 at 3:27pm: The Vietnamese arrived earlier than the Muslim Lebanese um no.

Both at the same time then. Mid 70's to the 80's. Tell me why the Vietnamese are cruising and the Lebanese Muslims aren't. Don't say racism either.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 2:10pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 19th, 2014 at 12:49pm: You did not merely suggest that both are associated, you suggested that it was poverty rather than Islam that is the cause the the trend that you yourself acknowledged. You offered poverty as an excuse for all the Muslims in jail. Can you justify that? Sure. Muslims in Australia are about twice as likely to be unemployed and in poverty than non-muslim Australians (source). Longitudinal studies have demonstrated a direct causal link between both unemployment and poverty (some references here under section 'Poverty and Unemployment'.) Other prison populations - most notably Aborigines - provide further support for this link. It would be silly to suggest that even though: a) the causal link between poverty and unemployment rates and prison rates is well known b) muslims are overrepresented in both poverty and unemployment in the general community c) we don't question the socio-economic factors of Aboriginal high-prison rates - ...muslims must be overrepresented in Australian prisons for some other unrelated reason that we have no evidence for :p

You have shown that at least some of it can be attributed to poverty, but not necessarily all. For example, are Muslims over-represented in jails by a factor of 2, or higher?

How do the longitudinal studies reject other possible causes? Do the authors claim a direct causal link, or is this another demonstration of your expertise in statistics?

Why are Muslims poorer?

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 6:52pm:

How do the longitudinal studies reject other possible causes?

They don't, but so far its the only evidence we've seen. If you have any evidence that devoutly following the Prophet's example explains high muslim imprisonment rates (apart from the miniscule number of inmates on terror charges) then by all means, show us. Until then your theory is conjecture.


freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 6:52pm:

Why are Muslims poorer?

I don't know the exact reason, but there certainly isn't a shortage of literature on the subject - if you're really interested in it FD. You could start with the paper I linked to in my last post.

Quote:

They don't, but so far its the only evidence we've seen.

So how do they demonstrate that it is a causal link?


Quote:

If you have any evidence that devoutly following the Prophet's example explains high muslim imprisonment rates (apart from the miniscule number of inmates on terror charges) then by all means, show us. Until then your theory is conjecture.

Hopefully the guy who married the 12 year old ends up in prison. And the father. And the Imam. Do they count, or were they not devout enough?

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 8:44pm:

So how do they demonstrate that it is a causal link?

As I said, the references are in the link I provided. And its not the only source available. This is hardly a revelation FD, there is a mountain of literature on the subject if you cared to look.


freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 8:44pm:

Hopefully the guy who married the 12 year old ends up in prison. And the father. And the Imam. Do they count

No. Two people don't make a trend. That is what we are talking about right FD - a trend?

Quote:

As I said, the references are in the link I provided. And its not the only source available. This is hardly a revelation FD, there is a mountain of literature on the subject if you cared to look.

Do you know how they established a direct causal link?


Quote:

No. Two people don't make a trend.

I mentioned 3, in addition to the dozen or so that you offered.


Quote:

That is what we are talking about right FD - a trend?

Sorry, I thought you asked me if I had any evidence that devoutly following the Prophet's example explains high muslim imprisonment rates

Do you actually know how high they are?

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 9:22pm:

Do you know how they established a direct causal link?

Not in detail, but the link I gave you describes it briefly. For the purposes of this discussion, I'm willing to accept the reference at face value.


freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 9:22pm:

Sorry, I thought you asked me if I had any evidence that devoutly following the Prophet's example explains high muslim imprisonment rates

Yes I did, and referencing 3 people who were involved in the only case of islamically sanctioned underrage mariage that we know about does not provide this. Its a bit like saying 3 aborigines who were arrested for fraud is evidence that high aboriginal imprisonment rates are due to white colar crime - ie obviously nonsense.


freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 9:22pm:

Do you actually know how high they are?

Not exactly, but the important point is that they are high wouldn't you say? But you're a big boy FD, I'm sure if you cared that much (as opposed to just wanting to nitpick what I present to you), you could learn as much as I know about it.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 18^th, 2014 at 1:31pm:

Yes, muslims are overrepresented in gaols - at least in Australia. I think its pretty obvious the reasons are for the same reasons Aborigines are overrepresented, and it has everything to do with socio-economic backgrounds, and little to do with religious background. Its basically kindergarten logic to blame islam for this given what we know about the link between socio-economic conditions and crime.

Muslims appear to top the numbers for being unemployed or in jail, it is a trend that is happening in many non Islamic countries.

If religion plays no part in this why do atheists and those with no religion have the lowest numbers in western jails?

Atheists/No religion also come from lower socio economic backgrounds, why do they appear as the lowest numbers in our jails?

Quote:

Not in detail, but the link I gave you describes it briefly. For the purposes of this discussion, I'm willing to accept the reference at face value.

Accept what reference? Did someone else tell you that it proves a direct causal link?


Quote:

Yes I did, and referencing 3 people who were involved in the only case of islamically sanctioned underrage mariage that we know about does not provide this. Its a bit like saying 3 aborigines who were arrested for fraud is evidence that high aboriginal imprisonment rates are due to white colar crime - ie obviously nonsense.

If he were not Muslim, he would have been told very quickly that it is illegal. If he had persisted in trying to get someone to conduct a wedding ceremony, he would have been reported to authorities. The causative role of Islam is undeniable, and the crime itself is typical of Islam.


Quote:

Not exactly, but the important point is that they are high wouldn't you say?

Sure, just like I agree with you that Muslims need to take responsibility for the child bride problem and tackle it head on. I don't want you and Karnal to spend the next 50 pages demanding that I prove it.


Quote:

But you're a big boy FD, I'm sure if you cared that much (as opposed to just wanting to nitpick what I present to you), you could learn as much as I know about it

How much do you actually know?

From the grooming gangs thread:


Adamant wrote on Mar 10^th, 2014 at 12:16pm:

These numbers, that Muslims who consist of only 4% of the UK population have 200 times the number of sexual perpetrators than any other group, is only a small number of the actual reality. It only represents cases that have come to light. The more cases that are prosecuted, the higher that number goes.

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 6:53pm:

Accept what reference?

The reference to a causal link.


freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 6:53pm:

If he were not Muslim, he would have been told very quickly that it is illegal. If he had persisted in trying to get someone to conduct a wedding ceremony, he would have been reported to authorities. The causative role of Islam is undeniable, and the crime itself is typical of Islam.

FD, what part of 3 people's involvement in the only case of its kind we know about does not constitute evidence of any sort of trend - don't you understand?

Quote:

The reference to a causal link.

You said there was a causal link. Are you now arguing that you should take your own claim at face value? What makes you think there is a causal link?


Quote:

FD, what part of 3 people's involvement in the only case of its kind we know about does not constitute evidence of any sort of trend - don't you understand?

It's quite simple Gandalf. You asked for evidence. I gave you evidence. Whatever waffly criticism you make of it, it is still evidence.

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 7:05pm:

You said there was a causal link.

There is - according to the literature.


freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 7:05pm:

It's quite simple Gandalf. You asked for evidence. I gave you evidence. Whatever waffly criticism you make of it, it is still evidence.

Right, very simple isn't it? Maybe thats the problem you are having.

How about I make another simple proposition: Aboriginal crime is due to middle class Aborigines conducting white collar crime. So amongst the entire Aboriginal prisoner population I'll search until I find 3 or so inmates that are in there for corporate fraud (who knows, maybe there are some). And viola - I have just provided "evidence" that Aboriginal crime is due to white collar crime.

Sound stupid? I agree. Ditto for your argument about muslim criminals.

Quote:

There is - according to the literature.

There is, according to you, but you don't quite understand what it is.


Quote:

Sound stupid? I agree. Ditto for your argument about muslim criminals.

Is this another one of those instances where I don't actually say what I am saying?

What would be stupid is me claiming that the evidence you present is not evidence.

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 6:21pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 18th, 2014 at 1:31pm: Yes, muslims are overrepresented in gaols - at least in Australia. I think its pretty obvious the reasons are for the same reasons Aborigines are overrepresented, and it has everything to do with socio-economic backgrounds, and little to do with religious background. Its basically kindergarten logic to blame islam for this given what we know about the link between socio-economic conditions and crime. Muslims appear to top the numbers for being unemployed or in jail, it is a trend that is happening in many non Islamic countries. If religion plays no part in this why do atheists and those with no religion have the lowest numbers in western jails? Atheists/No religion also come from lower socio economic backgrounds, why do they appear as the lowest numbers in our jails?

Gandalf- Can you give a plausible reason to why those with no religion have the lowest numbers in Jail in non Islamic countries?

Why did moderate Indonesia jail the atheist Alexander Aan, did he upset a few muslims by having no religion?

Quote:

Why did moderate Indonesia jail the atheist Alexander Aan

There you go Gandalf, a direct causal link between atheism and going to jail.

Your turn now.

freediver wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 1:04pm:

Is this another one of those instances where I don't actually say what I am saying?

lets play another game of proving to FD he said what he said:


polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 7:41pm:

If you have any evidence that devoutly following the Prophet's example explains high muslim imprisonment rates (apart from the miniscule number of inmates on terror charges) then by all means, show us. Until then your theory is conjecture.

FD replied:


freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2014 at 8:44pm:

Hopefully the guy who married the 12 year old ends up in prison. And the father. And the Imam. Do they count, or were they not devout enough?

You then spent a couple of posts thereafter claiming this was indeed the evidence required.

Explaining it to you yet again, 3 people in the only instance of its kind that we know about, is not in any way shape or form evidence that devoutly following the example of Prophet Muhammad explains high muslim imprisonment rates.

Its retarded, its stupid, its bigoted, its islamophobic, and it makes you look like a fool. Wake up to yourself. If the FD of 2007 could see the way he is arguing today, he would hold his head in shame.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 6:30pm:

Its retarded, its stupid, its bigoted, its islamophobic,

Islamophobic is a term that is both technically and logically incorrect, if they were truly phobic they would be compelled to avoid Islam not confront it head on like FD does.

If you want to argue Islamophobic is legitimate then surely Judeophobic and christianophobic would be legitimate terms as well.

Can we call muslims who criticise Israel or Jews Judeophobic, are you happy with that?
Can we call muslims who criticise christians Christianophobes,are you happy with that?

Quote:

You then spent a couple of posts thereafter claiming this was indeed the evidence required.

It is evidence Gandalf, whether you like it or not. Perhaps you need to get out a dictionary.


Quote:

Islamophobic is a term that is both technically and logically incorrect, if they were truly phobic they would be compelled to avoid Islam not confront it head on like FD does.

Gandalf has also accused his critics of cynically exploiting "wishy washy western liberal morals" to attack Islam. Apparently we cannot possibly have a valid reason for criticising this crap.


Quote:

If you want to argue Islamophobic is legitimate then surely Judeophobic and christianophobic would be legitimate terms as well.

That's the excuse Gandalf uses for Muhammed executing 800 Jews in one day. They were scared of them.

freediver wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 6:48pm:

Quote: If you want to argue Islamophobic is legitimate then surely Judeophobic and christianophobic would be legitimate terms as well. That's the excuse Gandalf uses for Muhammed executing 800 Jews in one day. They were scared of them.

Perhaps Muhammad was only Judeophobic towards Jewish men, he did marry a few Jewish women he captured on the same day he had their husbands heads chopped off.

freediver wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 6:48pm:

It is evidence Gandalf, whether you like it or not. Perhaps you need to get out a dictionary.

Yes, FD, its evidence that 3 muslims will probably go to gaol over an islamic underage marriage.

It is not, repeat *NOT* evidence that devoutly following the example of Prophet Muhammad explains high muslim imprisonment rates.

You seriously having difficulty comprehending this?

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 6:40pm:

Islamophobic is a term that is both technically and logically incorrect, if they were truly phobic they would be compelled to avoid Islam not confront it head on like FD does.

FD, just like you and all the other islamophobes *FEAR* that islam will gain a greater hold in this country, you all *FEAR* that the western world is being overrun by muslims and the spineless apologetics that support them, FD (and probably you) *FEARS* the attack on our democracy and freedom of speech that is supposedly associated with the growth of islam. FD fears the 100 million+ "little Hitlers" to our north who he feels fit to mention in the same sentence as WWII Japanese militants (but definitely *NOT* comparing with) - presumably ready to pounce on us and immediately introduce apostasy laws.

So don't give me that crap about not fearing muslims Baron.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 7:57pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 22nd, 2014 at 6:48pm: It is evidence Gandalf, whether you like it or not. Perhaps you need to get out a dictionary. Yes, FD, its evidence that 3 muslims will probably go to gaol over an islamic underage marriage. It is not, repeat *NOT* evidence that devoutly following the example of Prophet Muhammad explains high muslim imprisonment rates. You seriously having difficulty comprehending this?

It is evidence of both of these things.


Quote:

So don't give me that crap about not fearing muslims Baron.

Democracy is a fragile thing. Freedom is a fragile thing. Human rights are fragile. Muslims like Abu openly reject these things.

I don't think acknowledging this equates to a phobia. I think it is highly unlikely that Muslims will achieve what they want. That does not mean we should stop giving them a hard time about it.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 8:08pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 22nd, 2014 at 6:40pm: Islamophobic is a term that is both technically and logically incorrect, if they were truly phobic they would be compelled to avoid Islam not confront it head on like FD does. FD, just like you and all the other islamophobes *FEAR* that islam will gain a greater hold in this country, you all *FEAR* that the western world is being overrun by muslims and the spineless apologetics that support them, FD (and probably you) *FEARS* the attack on our democracy and freedom of speech that is supposedly associated with the growth of islam. FD fears the 100 million+ "little Hitlers" to our north who he feels fit to mention in the same sentence as WWII Japanese militants (but definitely *NOT* comparing with) - presumably ready to pounce on us and immediately introduce apostasy laws. So don't give me that crap about not fearing muslims Baron.

Christians shouldn't have any fears, and at least in my case, I note your laundry list as giving me all the more reason to believe in God, since the rise of the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom "beast" was prophesied for what I believe are these last days. So it is just more fulfillment of prophecy, and thus, more proof of God.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muhammad_islam_in_bible_prophecy.htm#johns_whole_world

But a phobia isn't simply a fear of something gand. The term "phobia" is used to describe as a fear that is ".....typically disproportional to the actual danger posed, often being recognized as irrational.....", so it is obviously oxymoronic to apply that suffix to the term "Islam" which is used to identify a violent, murderous, imperialistic, political machine, whose adherents are commanded by their leader to conquer all kingdoms, and subjugate all people to Muhammad's followers:

Quran Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle....."
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islamophobia_or_christian_love.htm

Pete Waldo wrote on Mar 26^th, 2014 at 1:00am:

The term "phobia" is used to describe as a fear that is ".....typically disproportional to the actual danger posed, often being recognized as irrational.....", so it is obviously oxymoronic to apply that suffix to the term "Islam" which is used to identify a violent, murderous, imperialistic, political machine

Ah.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 26^th, 2014 at 7:12am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Mar 26th, 2014 at 1:00am: The term "phobia" is used to describe as a fear that is ".....typically disproportional to the actual danger posed, often being recognized as irrational.....", so it is obviously oxymoronic to apply that suffix to the term "Islam" which is used to identify a violent, murderous, imperialistic, political machine Ah.

Still in default mode then ?      ....deflection, by denial.

Whenever challenged with factual information, and a legitimate description of ISLAM; "a violent, murderous, imperialistic, political machine"

....revert to the 'shield' of blatant denial, and obfuscation.




+++

The problem is gandalf, the the message [i.e. the truth about ISLAM] is getting out there.

Information ABOUT WHAT ISLAM IS, is being disseminated efficiently via the web.

And [previously] uninformed people, are checking the circumstances for themselves, are searching out the facts, and they are often times, shocked, at how they have been deceived by moslems and by the moslem community, by the false narrative which is being spread, by moslems.

ISLAM is not a tolerant, benign entity [nor a peaceful religion].

Yadda wrote on Mar 26^th, 2014 at 9:14am:

Information ABOUT WHAT ISLAM IS, is being disseminated efficiently via the web.

Indeed. Some might even call it a "fear campaign".

Definitely not a phobia though.

The truth will destroy islam eventually.

This has got muslims and their apologists running scared.

They have to live in a state of continuous denial and outright lies, in order to avoid admitting the many faults and failings of islam, allah, muhammad and the qur'an

The atrocities committed and backwards cult behaviour/mentality of muslims around the globe, will carry on, until one day the world will turn on them.

The malevolent  cult mindset of islam would be appealing to criminals. Birds of a feather - - - -.

It's all got to unfold, for truth to win out in the end.

"Fears are growing that Britain's jails are becoming a hotbed of extremism after it emerged nearly half the inmates of one top security prison are Muslim.

Around 42 per cent of those housed at Category A Whitemoor jail - and more than a quarter of those in London prisons - consider themselves to be of Islamic faith.

Experts now fear large numbers are being radicalised on the inside, where they say the spread of Jihadist ideas is rife".

link

What's the prognosis for the future?

Is there anything being done by the British and Australian governments to address this problem, and nip-it-in-the-bud before it becomes all too unmanageable?

Unfortunately all of the major parties of the UK and Australia are paralysed by fear of voter 'backlash' by the Muslim communities ~ as ex-Foreign Minister Bob Carr warned Julia Gillard about when he counselled her to be careful not to 'off-side' Sydney's burgeoning Muslim community.

So they just do nothing.

A GROWING 'elephant-in-the-room' called 'Muslim Radicals on the Rise' ~ but the pollies prefer to look the other way and hope that when the fireworks start it'll be on someone else's watch.

Yes, but do you have actual proof that this is something to do with Islam? Proof such as an opinion from Montgomery Watt, or some other English Gentleman, that sounds similar to what you are saying?

freediver wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 3:02pm:

Yes, but do you have actual proof that this is something to do with Islam? Proof such as an opinion from Montgomery Watt, or some other English Gentleman, that sounds similar to what you are saying?

Montgomery Watt was an expert in the field of Islamic history, so I'd doubt he would be much help here.

Citing history scholars is most useful for supporting claims on historical fact. And also for refuting baseless claims - like for example, the claim that arab society before Muhammad was "based on genuine equality".

Don't worry FD, you'll get the hang of it some day... maybe.

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 2:05pm:

"Fears are growing that Britain's jails are becoming a hotbed of extremism after it emerged nearly half the inmates of one top security prison are Muslim. Around 42 per cent of those housed at Category A Whitemoor jail - and more than a quarter of those in London prisons - consider themselves to be of Islamic faith. Experts now fear large numbers are being radicalised on the inside, where they say the spread of Jihadist ideas is rife". link What's the prognosis for the future? Is there anything being done by the British and Australian governments to address this problem, and nip-it-in-the-bud before it becomes all too unmanageable? Unfortunately all of the major parties of the UK and Australia are paralysed by fear of voter 'backlash' by the Muslim communities ~ as ex-Foreign Minister Bob Carr warned Julia Gillard about when he counselled her to be careful not to 'off-side' Sydney's burgeoning Muslim community. So they just do nothing. A GROWING 'elephant-in-the-room' called 'Muslim Radicals on the Rise' ~ but the pollies prefer to look the other way and hope that when the fireworks start it'll be on someone else's watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKITYu7z-AY

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 5:26pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 30th, 2014 at 3:02pm: Yes, but do you have actual proof that this is something to do with Islam? Proof such as an opinion from Montgomery Watt, or some other English Gentleman, that sounds similar to what you are saying? Montgomery Watt was an expert in the field of Islamic history, so I'd doubt he would be much help here. Citing history scholars is most useful for supporting claims on historical fact. And also for refuting baseless claims - like for example, the claim that arab society before Muhammad was "based on genuine equality". Don't worry FD, you'll get the hang of it some day... maybe.

Oh, I don’t know. We used to same the same about Y.

And he got worse.

Quote:

Citing history scholars is most useful for supporting claims on historical fact.

Especially if their opinion sounds vaguely similar to yours.


Quote:

And also for refuting baseless claims - like for example, the claim that arab society before Muhammad was "based on genuine equality".

I was so embarrassed when you found an expert who appeared to disagree with me.

I wish gandalf would get rid of that talking parrot on his shoulder.

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 7:55pm:

I wish gandalf would get rid of that talking parrot on his shoulder.

Ahar.

Be grateful for small mercies, FD. You’ll always have Herbie.

Anyone for cracker?

sherri wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 8:50pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 30th, 2014 at 7:50pm: True Blue... wrote on Mar 30th, 2014 at 6:35pm: Laugh till you cry wrote on Mar 30th, 2014 at 5:54pm: There she blows. The false conception of Australia as friendly egalitarian welcoming society. Its not just asylum seekers who have this opinion. Throw another immigrant on the barbie darling. http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/9861635/Australians-racist-and-unfriendly-study "... Australians are seen as nothing like the caring, friendly and hospitable mob so often assumed, with an extensive new survey of recent migrants reporting high levels of ethnic or religious discrimination. As the Abbott government prepares to strike down part of the racial discrimination law, the Monash University study has found many migrants regularly fear walking alone at night or becoming a victim of crime. The survey is the latest in a series ''mapping social cohesion'' funded by the Scanlon Foundation and Australia's federal government, and the first to allow researchers to compare the experience of recent migrants to the wider Australian population. It shows migrants settling over the past two decades often feel singled out because of their skin colour or faith - and report a disturbing lack of trust, both in other people and political institutions compared to the rest of the population..." yes... and the most likely perpetrator would be one of Labors boat people immigrant, Somalian and/or Sudanese... Do you have any statistics, or any reliable evidence whatsoever, to support this irrational, bigoted opinion of yours? Anything? Or is it just a racist comment, guided by your ignorance-fueled hatred for anyone who isn't white? These figures are a decade old but interesting all the same. I've seen other research that shows unemployment rates amongst migrants but would need time to locate it. Anyway it shows the white aussies aren't the only ones to fear on the streets. Birthplace Rates of Imprisonment Australia 1 UK/Eire 0.6 N.Z 1.6 Vietnam 2.7 Greece 0.5 Italy 0.6 Turkey 1.6 Lebanon 2.0 What does this mean? Well, people from the United Kingdom & Ireland, Greece and Italy were under-represented as a population in Australian gaols. But, those from Vietnam, Turkey, New Zealand and Lebanon were over represented. Vietnamese almost three times more likely than Australians, and Lebanese double. -------------------- Also saw this, much more recent, about a year or so ago I think. SUDANESE and Somali-born Victorians are about five times more likely to commit crimes than the wider community, a trend that must be addressed to prevent Cronulla-style social unrest, police warn. The most common crimes committed by Somali and Sudanese-born Victorians are assault and robbery, illustrating the trend towards increasingly violent robberies by disaffected African youths.... The police statistics show the rate of offending among the Sudanese community is 7109.1 per 100,000, while for Somali people it is 6141.8 per 100,000. The figure for the wider community is 1301.0 per 100,000. Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/african-youth-crime-concern-20120819-24glt.html#ixzz2xRT9d4Gd Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/african-youth-crime-concern-20120819-24glt.html#ixzz2xRSsG3Wz

Needless to say the 'New Zealand' (sic) figures refer to Pacific Islanders who first gain New Zealand citizenship in order to more easily qualify for migration to Australia as 'New Zealanders' (sic).

It's also very telling that statistics on prison ethnicities has been discontinued in contradiction to official boasts of Australia being 'proudly' a 'multicultural' society.

When statistics began to show an embarrassing preponderance of minority Usual Suspects in our jails system, suddenly the Powers-that-Be thought it might be politically prudent to declare the jail populations mono-cultural in identity.

Such is the deception and the moral cowardice of our socialist politicians.

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 2:05pm:

"Fears are growing that Britain's jails are becoming a hotbed of extremism after it emerged nearly half the inmates of one top security prison are Muslim. Around 42 per cent of those housed at Category A Whitemoor jail - and more than a quarter of those in London prisons - consider themselves to be of Islamic faith. Experts now fear large numbers are being radicalised on the inside, where they say the spread of Jihadist ideas is rife". link What's the prognosis for the future? Is there anything being done by the British and Australian governments to address this problem, and nip-it-in-the-bud before it becomes all too unmanageable? Unfortunately all of the major parties of the UK and Australia are paralysed by fear of voter 'backlash' by the Muslim communities ~ as ex-Foreign Minister Bob Carr warned Julia Gillard about when he counselled her to be careful not to 'off-side' Sydney's burgeoning Muslim community. So they just do nothing. A GROWING 'elephant-in-the-room' called 'Muslim Radicals on the Rise' ~ but the pollies prefer to look the other way and hope that when the fireworks start it'll be on someone else's watch.

Labor have always been in power even before the muslim community grew so its another false claim that labor is after the muslim vote when in fact labor where always in power many years in muslims areas.

wally1 wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 6:32am:

Labor have always been in power even before the muslim community grew so its another false claim that labor is after the muslim vote when in fact labor where always in power many years in muslims areas.

Both the major parties are after the Muslim vote ~ not just Labour.

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 2:05pm:

[i]"Fears are growing that Britain's jails are becoming a hotbed of extremism after it emerged nearly half the inmates of one top security prison are Muslim. Around 42 per cent of those housed at Category A Whitemoor jail - and more than a quarter of those in London prisons - consider themselves to be of Islamic faith.

Whitemoor houses terrorists. Back in the 90s, it housed IRA members. It's hardly indicative of the mainstream UK prison population.

Prisons categorize prisoners. If you go to the Sex Offender wing, you'll find rapists. If you go to Maximum Security, you'll find violent offenders. If you go to Protection, you'll find snitches and child molesters.

Finding small target groups and highlighting them as a trend is so Islam board. It's what we do. 6% of underage defactos are Muslims - a "child marriage epidemic". The terrorist unit of a British prison is 42% Muslim - "Britain's jails are becoming a hotbed of extremism". The local library's Winnie the Pooh is covered in mysterious pencil marks - Muslims are graffiting our library books, in Shia.

Keep up the good work, Herbie. Based on the Whitemoor prison experience, we should stop them coming to Australia.

Isn't it.

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 11:14am:

wally1 wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 6:32am: Labor have always been in power even before the muslim community grew so its another false claim that labor is after the muslim vote when in fact labor where always in power many years in muslims areas. Both the major parties are after the Muslim vote ~ not just Labour.

Who could forget Mr Abbott's rousing erection speech at the Lakemba Mosque?

Soapie Brandis' new Free Speech laws are not just about protecting the opinions of one Andrew Bolt, oh no.

The Liberal Party want to enshrine Taqiyya. Sinister, no?

freediver wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 7:52pm:

[quote] I was so embarrassed when you found an expert who appeared to disagree with me.

Don't. But do feel embarrassed about making a claim that has no basis in fact whatsoever. And especially feel embarrassed about using a "fact" that you had previously mocked and ridiculed and completely rejected - as the one and only piece of "evidence" to support the claim - after repeatedly assuring me you had solid evidence to support it.

Quote:

Prisons categorize prisoners. If you go to the Sex Offender wing, you'll find rapists. If you go to Maximum Security, you'll find violent offenders. If you go to Protection, you'll find snitches and child molesters.

If you go to the terrorist wing, you'll find Muslims.


Quote:

Finding small target groups and highlighting them as a trend is so Islam board. It's what we do. 6% of underage defactos are Muslims - a "child marriage epidemic".

I think you'll find that that particular issue carried on because Gandalf insisted that the factor of 3 over-representation is statistically insignificant. I suspect he even googled statistical regression and dropped a few words in an effort to pretend he knew what he was talking about. The evidence was introduced by Muslims, the misrepresentation of the evidence was introduced by Muslims, yet somehow it is some kind of sinister effort by non-Muslims.


Quote:

The terrorist unit of a British prison is 42% Muslim - "Britain's jails are becoming a hotbed of extremism".

The concept of a jail as a criminal's university is widely known. I'm not sure why the same argument would not apply to Islamic extremism. The original claim was certainly not merely based on the number of Muslim terrorists in jail. You have picked up a curious habit of pretending that the statement of the obvious is a sinister misrepresentation, merely because it makes Islam look bad.

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 4^th, 2014 at 8:24am:

freediver wrote on Apr 3rd, 2014 at 8:49pm: Quote: Or even helping his *OWN* community of unemployed, drug and crime-prone muslims in western Sydney. Evidence? For what?

That the Muslims of western Sydney are crime-prone. You seem to have a habit of parroting the bigotry of the mainstream media's deliberate smear campaign against Islam. Then Karnal turns up and points out the bigotry and tells you not to take any notice, then you spend 50 pages or so demanding other people prove your own claims. I'm not falling for that any more.

freediver wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2014 at 7:10pm:

Quote: Prisons categorize prisoners. If you go to the Sex Offender wing, you'll find rapists. If you go to Maximum Security, you'll find violent offenders. If you go to Protection, you'll find snitches and child molesters. If you go to the terrorist wing, you'll find Muslims. [quote]Finding small target groups and highlighting them as a trend is so Islam board. It's what we do. 6% of underage defactos are Muslims - a "child marriage epidemic".

I think you'll find that that particular issue carried on because Gandalf insisted that the factor of 3 over-representation is statistically insignificant. I suspect he even googled statistical regression and dropped a few words in an effort to pretend he knew what he was talking about. The evidence was introduced by Muslims, the misrepresentation of the evidence was introduced by Muslims, yet somehow it is some kind of sinister effort by non-Muslims.


Quote:

The terrorist unit of a British prison is 42% Muslim - "Britain's jails are becoming a hotbed of extremism".

The concept of a jail as a criminal's university is widely known. I'm not sure why the same argument would not apply to Islamic extremism.[/quote]

You’re right. I do believe Islam and Islamic extremism spreads through jails. In Australia, even groups of Aboriginal prisoners are identifying with Islam, most likely through the influence of Spike Lee’s Malcolm X.

It’s a bit different to learning a criminal trade though. In jail, identifying with a strong group is as much about keeping your back covered as it is about identity politics.

Not all of this is bad. While the Nation of Islam has, I believe, become a toxic, separatist movement in the US, it does function as a powerful self-help group too. Many reform themselves through the Nation of Islam in the US. Many use its networks to get jobs and give up drugs and crime for good.

Like many things, there is good and bad, yin and yang. But it’s definitely worth keeping a very close eye on Islamacist groups in prisons, particularly in the UK, which seems to attract a much more extremist brand of Islam.

When Bilal Philips was asked how he managed to convert 3000 US soldiers to Islam in Saudi Arabia, he supposed that it was probably for the same reason that so prisoners in the US converted; time.

Many of the soldiers stationed in Saudi Arabia in the early 1990's had little recreational activities to distract them, and they therefore had a lot of time to think and ponder the meaning of life.

Bilal Philips on his time as a missionary to US forces in Saudi Arabia:


Quote:

During the Gulf War I worked among the US forces in the deserts of Saudi Arabia under the auspices of the Religious Affairs Department of the Air Force. The US troops had typical misgivings about Islam. In the US they had been told not to go even within 10 feet of the Mosques. We took them inside the Mosques. They were impressed by the simplicity of the ambience of the Mosques interiors. When they landed in Saudi Arabia, It appeared to them a strange place with women cloaked in black hijab. They had named it the UBO or Unidentified Black Objects. But the living experience in Saudi Arabia was an eye opener for the US troops. They saw openness and warm hospitality in tents of bedouins in the deserts who served them with fresh dates and milk. They had not seen this hospitality in Korea or Japan where they had camped for decades. Later, I went back to the US and set up Islamic chapters in the US Defence Department. Other Islamic organisations in the US are also in touch with these troops. Nearly 3,000 US troops embraced Islam while staying in Saudi Arabia. Believe me, Saudi Arabia was the only place on the earth, where US forces did not leave war babies and where the liquor was rationed. In the tents, the troops openly discussed the Islamic tenets and practices. These Muslim troops are now the messengers of Islam in the US forces. But then people have accused Saudi Arabia for having invited polytheists to fight against a Muslim neighbour. I do not want to go into politics. Saudi Arabia has been able to make a big and positive Islamic impact on the West. The stay of US troops was utilised by Saudis to convey Islamic message. Political name-calling of Saudi Arabia could be easy. Iran makes a negative impact on the West. Saudi Arabia takes better care of its citizens, far in excess of what the Western nations do with their own countries. Two million US citizens live and sleep on the streets. None in Saudi Arabia.

http://www.islamicvoice.com/july.98/embraced.htm

Meanwhile in cuddly Cambridgeshire:

At category A Whitemoor jail an astonishing 42 per cent of ­convicts follow the Islamic faith - a figure in stark contrast to the overall UK population of just 5%

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/terrorism-top-security-uk-prison-terror-3300455#ixzz2yLUae886

Quote:

You’re right. I do believe Islam and Islamic extremism spreads through jails. In Australia, even groups of Aboriginal prisoners are identifying with Islam, most likely through the influence of Spike Lee’s Malcolm X.

Falah is doing his bit too.


Quote:

Like many things, there is good and bad, yin and yang. But it’s definitely worth keeping a very close eye on Islamacist groups in prisons, particularly in the UK, which seems to attract a much more extremist brand of Islam.

Say no more Karnal.


Quote:

Nearly 3,000 US troops embraced Islam while staying in Saudi Arabia. Believe me, Saudi Arabia was the only place on the earth, where US forces did not leave war babies and where the liquor was rationed.

There's a surprise. Islam is popular with both soldiers and criminals. Who knows who will be next? The gays and the feminists?

Apparently stratos read through this whole thread and couldn't find any evidence.


Stratos wrote on May 25^th, 2014 at 11:20am:

freediver wrote on May 25th, 2014 at 11:15am: Perhaps you should respond in the thread in question if you think the evidence presented is inadequate. There is no evidence.  Also beggin the question why you think linking to it would be relevant evidence to support the suggestion that Muslims are over-represented in Australia's prisons. Or is this another piece of evidence you just assumed, like you have been known to do previously?

The rates of imprisonment by place of birth which show higher rates from Lebanon, Turkey and Sudan quoted in reply#86, is fairly strong evidence that muslims are overrepresented in Australian gaols.

I blame Islam. Typical.

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2014 at 6:04pm:

I blame Islam. Typical.

Of course that's a given.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2014 at 1:47pm:

The rates of imprisonment by place of birth which show higher rates from Lebanon, Turkey and Sudan quoted in reply#86, is fairly strong evidence that muslims are overrepresented in Australian gaols.

Who do you blame, gandalf ?

Moslems [because of the activities which many moslem have tended to involve themselves in] ?

Or is the fault with the Australian justice system [for jailing proportionally, more moslems] ?

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2014 at 1:47pm:

The rates of imprisonment by place of birth which show higher rates from Lebanon, Turkey and Sudan quoted in reply#86, is fairly strong evidence that muslims are overrepresented in Australian gaols.

Not really. Theses countries particularly Lebanon have a high proportion of Christians and it makes sense that we would be getting an even higher proportion of Christian migrants from these countries to here.

ian wrote on May 25^th, 2014 at 11:15pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25th, 2014 at 1:47pm: The rates of imprisonment by place of birth which show higher rates from Lebanon, Turkey and Sudan quoted in reply#86, is fairly strong evidence that muslims are overrepresented in Australian gaols. Not really. Theses countries particularly Lebanon have a high proportion of Christians and it makes sense that we would be getting an even higher proportion of Christian migrants from these countries to here.

Why is it then Ian that most countries that have accepted muslims have a higher proportion of them in jails. India has problems with them whilst Belgium, a relative newcomer to Islam is inundated. (They will be the first country to become Islamic in Europe, possibly within 15 years) We will live to see this transition from producer to ?

Should we roll over and play our part in becoming the ummah or can we, the free rail against it!

The Muslim has Always Hated the Hindu! In its never ending need for greed, Islam slaughtered an estimated 80 million Hindus over 500 years in the belief they were disgusting individuals. NO other belief system has EVER engaged in that sort of endemic hatred. It continues today but none of the muslim apologists ever acknowledge this, far better for them, yourself included to ignore the hatred that is Islam.

The persecution of India continues.

http://themmindset.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/why-so-many-muslims-in-prisons/

It is a great site, I suggest you spend a while there. Chill. Learn. Expand. Return Knowing.

Adamant wrote on May 26^th, 2014 at 7:42pm:

Islam slaughtered an estimated 80 million Hindus over 500 years...

That is a big claim not really supported by evidence isn't it.


What we do know is that the Christian British occupation starved millions of Indians to death.

The British forcibly converted Indian land to cash crops, and took much of the remaining food crops back to England even in times of famine.



Quote:

Famines in India resulted in more than 60 million deaths over the course of the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries... ...The late 18th and 19th centuries saw increase in the incidence of severe famine. These famines in British India were bad enough to have a remarkable impact on the long term population growth of the country, especially in the half century between 1871–1921. The first, the Bengal famine of 1770, is estimated to have taken the lives of nearly one-third of the population of the region—about 10 million people... ...The 1901 Famine Commission found that twelve famines and four "severe scarcities" took place between 1765 and 1858... ...Amartya Sen implies that the famines in the British era were due to a lack of a serious effort on the part of the British government to prevent famines. He links the lack of this serious effort to the absence of democracy in British India. The father of India's green revolution M. S. Swaminathan credits the elimination of famines to Indian independence from the Britain despite the trebling of population. ...Mike Davis regards the famines of the 1870s and 1890s as 'Late Victorian Holocausts'. This negative image of British rule is common in India. Davis argues that "Millions died, not outside the 'modern world system', but in the very process of being forcibly incorporated into its economic and political structures. They died in the golden age of Liberal Capitalism; indeed, many were murdered ... by the theological application of the sacred principles of Smith, Bentham and Mill."... ...Causes[ The famines were a product both of uneven rainfall and British economic and administrative policies. Colonial polices implicated include rack-renting, levies for war, free trade policies, the expansion of export agriculture, and neglect of agricultural investment. Indian exports of opium, rice, wheat, indigo, jute, and cotton were a key component of the economy of the British empire, generating vital foreign currency, primarily from China, and stabilising low prices in the British grain market. Export crops displaced millions of acres that could have been used for domestic subsistence, and increased the vulnerability of Indians to food crises... ...The first major famine that took place under British rule was the Bengal Famine of 1770. About a quarter to a third of the population of Bengal starved to death in about a ten-month period. East India Company's raising of taxes disastrously coincided with this famine and exacerbated it... ...n 1874 the response from the British authorities was better and famine was completely averted. Then in 1876 a huge famine broke out in Madras. Lord Lytton's administration believed that 'market forces alone would suffice to feed the starving Indians.' The results of such thinking proved fatal (some 5.5 million starved)... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/India-famine-family-crop-420.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_India#British_rule

List of major famines during Christian British occupation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_major_famines_in_India_during_British_rule



Quote:

How Churchill 'starved' India ...Some three million Indians died in the famine of 1943... ...The scarcity, Mukherjee writes, was caused by large-scale exports of food from India for use in the war theatres and consumption in Britain - India exported more than 70,000 tonnes of rice between January and July 1943, even as the famine set in. This would have kept nearly 400,000 people alive for a full year. Mr Churchill turned down fervent pleas to export food to India citing a shortage of ships - this when shiploads of Australian wheat, for example, would pass by India to be stored for future consumption in Europe... ...Throughout the autumn of 1943, the United Kingdom's food and raw materials stockpile for its 47 million people - 14 million fewer than that of Bengal - swelled to 18.5m tonnes... ...Mr Churchill also pushed a scorched earth policy - which went by the sinister name of Denial Policy - in coastal Bengal where the colonisers feared the Japanese would land. So authorities removed boats (the lifeline of the region) and the police destroyed and seized rice stocks... http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/legacy/thereporters/soutikbiswas/2010/10/how_churchill_starved_india.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7CxKVIQKx4

True Colours wrote on May 27^th, 2014 at 1:15am:

That is a big claim not really supported by evidence isn't it

Yes it is. I have proven this twice before, cannot be bothered to do so again!

Timur the lame killed 100,000 thousand prisoners in cold blood then invaded Delhi and slaughter all in the city.

"He invaded Baghdad in June 1401. After the capture of the city, 20,000 of its citizens were massacred. Timur ordered that every soldier should return with at least two severed human heads to show him. (Many warriors were so scared they killed prisoners captured earlier in the campaign just to ensure they had heads to present to Timur.)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur#Campaign_against_the_Tughlaq_Dynasty

I digress however, what do you think of  the disproportionate amount of your fellow Mo's languishing in India's jails. is it on a par with the rest of the world?

In Wormwood scrubs the muslim prison population is about 45%, is this what we can look forward to?