Coal seam gas (CSG) exploration applications will be frozen for six months across NSW while the state government reviews the controversial process.

Premier Barry O'Farrell accused the former Labor government of granting petroleum exploration licences "like confetti" and warned the government would also audit existing licences.

"We're taking decisive action to ensure the state's resources are developed for the people of NSW and not for the benefit of Labor MPs, their cronies and their union mates," he told the chamber on Wednesday after making the announcement.

The six-month freeze will also allow the government to introduce a "new thorough regime" for allocating future licences, the premier said.

The government is concerned about the application process, which has seen small companies - sometimes run by one person - being allowed to explore large areas, despite not having the experience or financial backing for the projects.

Mr O'Farrell said the former Labor government granted 39 exploration licences while his government had yet to grant a single one.

Mr O'Farrell pointed out that three quarters of the licences granted under Labor were issued by former ministers Eddie Obeid and Ian Macdonald, who were later found to have acted corruptly by the Independent Commission Against Corruption.

The premier said the licences granted under Labor were handed out with "virtually no oversight and clearly no thought".

He slammed Labor for only charging $1000 for exploration applications, which was "less than Ian Macdonald spent on his average lunch".

That fee is now being raised to $50,000.

Resources Minister Anthony Roberts said the government was committed to ending Labor's practice of "flogging off the state's natural resources to their mates and business partners".

"We are sending a very clear message that only reputable operators are wanted in the state of NSW," he told parliament.

Good on him, although he is responsible for a few broken promises on CSG. Still curtailing the activity of these scavengers for a short period is a step in the right direction.

Well Done Barry

http://img.ffffound.com/static-data/assets/6/a1f0d78fadc07b34ec68ac69dd5b74a07c805fad_m.gif

Lets hope this remains a state issue & is not taken over by Tony.

Fatty O’Barrel up for election soon?

St George of the Garden wrote on Mar 26^th, 2014 at 5:28pm:

Fatty O’Barrel up for election soon?

In 12 months. Alan Jones is partly responsible for his change of behaviour. He's been bringing O'Farrell to task over these mining issues. CSG exploration has become dangerously invasive and people are very worried.

He says six months, but if he hasn't cleaned it up by next year - he could lose to John Robertson who seems to be building Labor up a bit since the horrific Obeid affair - no easy task.

bogarde73 wrote on Mar 26^th, 2014 at 2:49pm:

Premier Barry O'Farrell accused the former Labor government of granting petroleum exploration licences "like confetti" and warned the government would also audit existing licences.

The only thing wrong with O'Farrell's actions is that he should have acted sooner. Otherwise, credit where credit is due.

O'Farrell should cancel all the licences. We do not know the side effects of the technology behind coal seam gas. Any technology that relies on pumping who knows what into the ground in an uncontrolled manner cannot be without long-term harm.

We would be better off developing an energy source that does not rely on mining, or exploiting shale oil.

Thought it was pressure of an election.

Should have been done ages ago...  greed it seems had much to do with it and an accident was the final straw that opened their tiny closed minds.
One that wouldn't have happened if they had listened to the people and not the mining interests.

                WOOHOO!!!!


http://www.csgfreebyronshire.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/LockTheGate_268_by_143.jpg

Legal advice about CSG contamination of food not disclosed (ABC Online - Rural)
(Excerpt quoted - see link for full article)

Quote:

To date, there has been no contamination of meat by the coal seam gas sector. But legal experts warn it’s only a matter of time before such an issue comes to court. Just who is liable for damages, if a consumer falls ill and traces it back to petroleum exploration, is not clear. The cattle industry attempted to find out last year, but the findings are not allowed to be released due to professional legal privilege. “I think we have to be clear here," said Dugald Gordon, chief executive of the Australian Lot Feeders Association (ALFA). “We got Safe Meat to look at this issue and whether it would pose a risk to producers, and they determined the risk is negligible, so we have to be careful about the language we use. "Our markets are very sensitive on issues such as residues. “Certainly we need to maintain a watching brief over this issue.” The story has emerged this week, in a Beef Central report, that the Cattle Council and ALFA funded a project, managed by Meat and Livestock Australia, for legal advice on who in the supply chain is covered and who is liable. But the detailed report has not been released. What's in the public domain is little more than a summary.

Good on you Bazza. Question has to be asked WHY?  He's been in power three years, three years of CSG protests and nothing until now. Me thinks he's reading polls.

I suspect vast amounts of compensation from taxpayers funds might be incurred by unjustifiable cancellation of licenses.
Can the state afford that?

bogarde73 wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 9:45am:

I suspect vast amounts of compensation from taxpayers funds might be incurred by unjustifiable cancellation of licenses. Can the state afford that?

Can the state afford its food crops poisoned ? Or it's water? How about its beef and cattle? Or it's kids?

Why didn’t Fatty think about that earlier?

St George of the Garden wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 9:52am:

Why didn’t Fatty think about that earlier?

He's lost a considerable amount of weight, which is very good for his health. He has also been in a media campaign to promote weight loss among men. What have you done, Elmer Dudd?

What have I done? Started two businesses and gave employment to a dozen people. Helped as much as I could when my bil left my sister and 3 young girls, am currently helping my 93yo mother. You?

skippy. wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 9:27am:

Good on you Bazza. Question has to be asked WHY?  He's been in power three years, three years of CSG protests and nothing until now. Me thinks he's reading polls.

... of course, it may have been THIS - brought to our attention by Get Up


Santos coal seam gas project contaminates aquifer
 
March 8, 2014


A coal seam gas project operated by energy company Santos in north-western NSW has contaminated a nearby aquifer, with uranium at levels 20 times higher than safe drinking water guidelines, an official investigation has found.

It is the first confirmation of aquifer contamination associated with coal seam gas activity in Australia - a blow to an industry pushing state and federal governments for permission to expand.

Santos was fined $1500 by the NSW Environment Protection Authority, which posted a media release on its website on February 18, without identifying the nature of the contamination.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/santos-coal-seam-gas-project-contaminates-aquifer-20140307-34csb.html#ixzz2x7hWIR1c




... or THIS



Queensland LNG enforcement unit to investigate 'flammable, toxic' water' in Chinchilla bore near CSG project 

July 02, 2012



THE State Government has called in its LNG enforcement unit to investigate why a household water bore on a Chinchilla property has suddenly become flammable and apparently toxic. 
 
Landowner Brian Monk blames the extensive coal seam gas operations in the region, including the controversial practice of fracking which has been used there.

But coal seam gas company QGC said science and logic would indicate that had nothing to do with it.

Mr Monk feared he had exposed his grandchildren to the apparently noxious gases flowing from the bore, which has become "radically worse" in recent months.

His fears are typical of the rural anxiety that exists in the Surat Basin as it turns from a mostly agricultural district to an industrialised energy hub with mines, gas wells, power and compressor stations, pipelines and transmission towers.

Mr Monk blamed the CSG wells within a few kilometres of his 2000ha property for the problems, and claimed his family had been sick and covered in rashes from the water that, until a few months ago, was used for bathing.

The bore is now almost dry and only "spits" water and gas every few minutes.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/farmers-fear-as-water-bore-burns/story-e6freoof-1226413841111


A farmer has ZERO power to stop a CSG mining company from destroying his livelihood in this manner ...

... yet for a SINGLE WIND TURBINE to be erected - the written permission from EVERYONE living within 2 km must be obtained


GO FIGURE !

( ... I know which I'd prefer on MY farm)

skippy. wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 9:51am:

bogarde73 wrote on Mar 27th, 2014 at 9:45am: I suspect vast amounts of compensation from taxpayers funds might be incurred by unjustifiable cancellation of licenses. Can the state afford that? Can the state afford its food crops poisoned ? Or it's water? How about its beef and cattle? Or it's kids?

For god's sake, we've just started on the cleaning up of the financial mess left by the late departed federal Labor govt.
Do you now want us to embark on a massive financial burden for NSW to unravel what the Labor party did there?
Probably you do, for you have no concern whatever for the waste of public money.

bogarde73 wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:19pm:

skippy. wrote on Mar 27th, 2014 at 9:51am: bogarde73 wrote on Mar 27th, 2014 at 9:45am: I suspect vast amounts of compensation from taxpayers funds might be incurred by unjustifiable cancellation of licenses. Can the state afford that? Can the state afford its food crops poisoned ? Or it's water? How about its beef and cattle? Or it's kids? For god's sake, we've just started on the cleaning up of the financial mess left by the late departed federal Labor govt. Do you now want us to embark on a massive financial burden for NSW to unravel what the Labor party did there? Probably you do, for you have no concern whatever for the waste of public money.

It's- Liberal government that has halted it, sweet cheeks, even they are brighter than you Re the damage of CSG, why am I not surprised? ::)

skippy. wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:26pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Mar 27th, 2014 at 1:19pm: skippy. wrote on Mar 27th, 2014 at 9:51am: bogarde73 wrote on Mar 27th, 2014 at 9:45am: I suspect vast amounts of compensation from taxpayers funds might be incurred by unjustifiable cancellation of licenses. Can the state afford that? Can the state afford its food crops poisoned ? Or it's water? How about its beef and cattle? Or it's kids? For god's sake, we've just started on the cleaning up of the financial mess left by the late departed federal Labor govt. Do you now want us to embark on a massive financial burden for NSW to unravel what the Labor party did there? Probably you do, for you have no concern whatever for the waste of public money. It's- Liberal government that has halted it, sweet cheeks, even they are brighter than you Re the damage of CSG, why am I not surprised? ::)

but it was a labor government that granted all the licenses and gave the go ahead to the majority of leases.

http://www.theland.com.au/news/agriculture/general/news/santos-agl-lock-the-gate-in-nsw/2693423.aspx


Quote:

UPDATED 12:15pm: SANTOS and AGL have formed an historic access policy guaranteeing farmers the right to say no to coal seam gas (CSG) mining activities. The companies have agreed not to enforce arbitration over land access for CSG operations. It will be the first such commitment in Australia. The move has been met with glowing enthusiasm from the farm lobby. Coal miners and other companies are concerned this agreement will raise community expectations and inhibit their plans to grow. “This is a great start. They agree with what we have been saying all along," said Lock the Gate national campaign director Phil Laird said. “Now is the time for the NSW government to formalise the landholders’ right of veto in legislation.

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 7:51am:

WOOHOO!!!! http://www.csgfreebyronshire.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/LockTheGate_268_by_143.jpg

Yeah, but would be good idea to keep alert.
Keep it out of the public gaze for a while and then go twice as hard.

Trust this mob, not.....

;)

Setanta wrote on Mar 28^th, 2014 at 2:36pm:

http://www.theland.com.au/news/agriculture/general/news/santos-agl-lock-the-gate-in-nsw/2693423.aspx Quote: UPDATED 12:15pm: SANTOS and AGL have formed an historic access policy guaranteeing farmers the right to say no to coal seam gas (CSG) mining activities. The companies have agreed not to enforce arbitration over land access for CSG operations. It will be the first such commitment in Australia. The move has been met with glowing enthusiasm from the farm lobby. Coal miners and other companies are concerned this agreement will raise community expectations and inhibit their plans to grow. “This is a great start. They agree with what we have been saying all along," said Lock the Gate national campaign director Phil Laird said. “Now is the time for the NSW government to formalise the landholders’ right of veto in legislation.

Does this agreement also stop them from buying the property next door and then drilling under yours??

;)

Lobo wrote on Mar 28^th, 2014 at 3:03pm:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Mar 27th, 2014 at 7:51am:                 WOOHOO!!!! http://www.csgfreebyronshire.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/LockTheGate_268_by_143.jpg Yeah, but would be good idea to keep alert. Keep it out of the public gaze for a while and then go twice as hard. Trust this mob, not..... ;)

;)  Are you in NSW FROGGIE?

Lobo wrote on Mar 28^th, 2014 at 3:06pm:

Setanta wrote on Mar 28th, 2014 at 2:36pm: http://www.theland.com.au/news/agriculture/general/news/santos-agl-lock-the-gate-in-nsw/2693423.aspx Quote: UPDATED 12:15pm: SANTOS and AGL have formed an historic access policy guaranteeing farmers the right to say no to coal seam gas (CSG) mining activities. The companies have agreed not to enforce arbitration over land access for CSG operations. It will be the first such commitment in Australia. The move has been met with glowing enthusiasm from the farm lobby. Coal miners and other companies are concerned this agreement will raise community expectations and inhibit their plans to grow. “This is a great start. They agree with what we have been saying all along," said Lock the Gate national campaign director Phil Laird said. “Now is the time for the NSW government to formalise the landholders’ right of veto in legislation. Does this agreement also stop them from buying the property next door and then drilling under yours?? ;)

That's exactly what I thought when my wife showed me. They'll just drill under your property from up the road. It's a start and it keeps them off properties that the owners don't want them on.

woody2014 wrote on Mar 28^th, 2014 at 3:07pm:

Lobo wrote on Mar 28th, 2014 at 3:03pm: Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Mar 27th, 2014 at 7:51am:                 WOOHOO!!!! http://www.csgfreebyronshire.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/LockTheGate_268_by_143.jpg Yeah, but would be good idea to keep alert. Keep it out of the public gaze for a while and then go twice as hard. Trust this mob, not..... ;) ;)  Are you in NSW FROGGIE?

Yep!
Moved back up here after Nasho...

:)
Edit: Long story.... :)

Setanta wrote on Mar 28^th, 2014 at 11:18am:

Lobo wrote on Mar 28th, 2014 at 3:06pm: Setanta wrote on Mar 28th, 2014 at 2:36pm: http://www.theland.com.au/news/agriculture/general/news/santos-agl-lock-the-gate-in-nsw/2693423.aspx Quote: UPDATED 12:15pm: SANTOS and AGL have formed an historic access policy guaranteeing farmers the right to say no to coal seam gas (CSG) mining activities. The companies have agreed not to enforce arbitration over land access for CSG operations. It will be the first such commitment in Australia. The move has been met with glowing enthusiasm from the farm lobby. Coal miners and other companies are concerned this agreement will raise community expectations and inhibit their plans to grow. “This is a great start. They agree with what we have been saying all along," said Lock the Gate national campaign director Phil Laird said. “Now is the time for the NSW government to formalise the landholders’ right of veto in legislation. Does this agreement also stop them from buying the property next door and then drilling under yours?? ;) That's exactly what I thought when my wife showed me. They'll just drill under your property from up the road. It's a start and it keeps them off properties that the owners don't want them on.

I've read that they can bore horizontally from 2 to 2+ahalf km from the well head.
If that's what they tell us, I'm more inclined to believe 5+ km.

;)

Lobo wrote on Mar 28^th, 2014 at 12:36pm:

Setanta wrote on Mar 28th, 2014 at 11:18am: Lobo wrote on Mar 28th, 2014 at 3:06pm: Setanta wrote on Mar 28th, 2014 at 2:36pm: http://www.theland.com.au/news/agriculture/general/news/santos-agl-lock-the-gate-in-nsw/2693423.aspx Quote: UPDATED 12:15pm: SANTOS and AGL have formed an historic access policy guaranteeing farmers the right to say no to coal seam gas (CSG) mining activities. The companies have agreed not to enforce arbitration over land access for CSG operations. It will be the first such commitment in Australia. The move has been met with glowing enthusiasm from the farm lobby. Coal miners and other companies are concerned this agreement will raise community expectations and inhibit their plans to grow. “This is a great start. They agree with what we have been saying all along," said Lock the Gate national campaign director Phil Laird said. “Now is the time for the NSW government to formalise the landholders’ right of veto in legislation. Does this agreement also stop them from buying the property next door and then drilling under yours?? ;) That's exactly what I thought when my wife showed me. They'll just drill under your property from up the road. It's a start and it keeps them off properties that the owners don't want them on. I've read that they can bore horizontally from 2 to 2+ahalf km from the well head. If that's what they tell us, I'm more inclined to believe 5+ km. ;)

There's also the TPP that could come into play.

*reads carefully...

"Coal seam gas (CSG) exploration applications will be frozen for six months across NSW while the state government reviews the controversial process."

What about the rest then?  Just business as usual?

The rest of them can continue to pollute the aquifers with cancer causing pollutants like uranium.

____ wrote on Mar 29^th, 2014 at 5:09am:

The rest of them can continue to pollute the aquifers with cancer causing pollutants like uranium.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 29^th, 2014 at 5:52am:

____ wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 5:09am: The rest of them can continue to pollute the aquifers with cancer causing pollutants like uranium. Zzzzzzzzzzzzz

I take that as agreement from you hicks.

I know more about this process than you and I have no problem with it.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 29^th, 2014 at 6:04am:

I know more about this process than you and I have no problem with it.

It's not the process, it's the pollution it causes. Something you are ignorant on since independent studies are lacking.

There are categoric studies carried out by non employees, industry watchdog consultants, government department advisors.

Greens, I'm not sure if you even know this but for it to be regulatory approved there needs to be sampling with 10 feet of the upstream point, then again within 250 feet.

Also the level of seepage has to be tracked through source to upstream pipe delivery.
Combined with checks to the outage emergency valves.

The data we have seen - comparable with other industry studies - shows the seepage is no greater than regular oil and gas delivery in 98.4% of cases.

That is a pass mark for all developed world regulatory approvals.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 29^th, 2014 at 6:15am:

There are categoric studies carried out by non employees, industry watchdog consultants, government department advisors.

We had a scientist from an independent body at our MiM protest. He was there because the findings from his company were overruled by the government advisers, who, of course were paid to falsify any adverse evidence.

Every truly independent report, done by university studies etc will confirm that CSG exploration is dangerous. The evidence against far outweighs the evidence supplied by government backed reports.

Some people are so easily conned.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 29^th, 2014 at 6:04am:

I know more about this process than you and I have no problem with it.

You are known to have a vested interest in the energy industry, so your view on this is tainted by personal profit.

If we stopped exploration that was deemed to have a risk, we'd completely stop offshore oil drilling pansi.

Risk mitigation is everything.

Bam wrote on Mar 29^th, 2014 at 7:13am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 6:04am: I know more about this process than you and I have no problem with it. You are known to have a vested interest in the energy industry, so your view on this is tainted by personal profit.

I work in the energy industry. I don't profit from it.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 29^th, 2014 at 7:33am:

Bam wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 7:13am: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 6:04am: I know more about this process than you and I have no problem with it. You are known to have a vested interest in the energy industry, so your view on this is tainted by personal profit. I work in the energy industry. I don't profit from it.

As an accountant, apparently. I would never get the accountant of a law firm to represent me in court.

The idea that the accountant suddenly becomes the scientist is absurd.

I'm not Accountant.
I am Finance.

Accounting do the SEC reporting ad financial statements for SOX etc.
Finance do the forward planning, we are the business partners, we roll the capex forecasts, we advise on profit based decisions.

Finance cannot do the job without intrinsically knowing the business.

Gas fracking is the future of energy supplementing for the next decades.
Trust me. The profits are good.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 29^th, 2014 at 7:33am:

Bam wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 7:13am: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 6:04am: I know more about this process than you and I have no problem with it. You are known to have a vested interest in the energy industry, so your view on this is tainted by personal profit. I work in the energy industry. I don't profit from it.

The only way both remarks would be true is if you worked for free.

Dame Pansi seems somehow so appropriate.
Hicks...  offshore drilling is not the same as onshore drilling in a country which is the most arid populated one in the world and which depends on its aquifers for water now and into the future.
We've already had an accident which has made an important aquifer non viable.  It took an accident to get them to stop this crap before too much damage gets done.  It's probably too late for Qld they're an accident waiting to happen.
Motivation for the industry GREED....  they lie about the need for gas and new sources...  they are flogging our gas off at low prices to China etc and depleting our reserves not using it for us and our future.
Due to the parlous state of the NSW books labor and this government have allowed themselves to be scammed in hopes of a financial windfall.  They saw this as a way out of those difficulties, the goose that laid the golden egg.  Problem is this goose is pooing in our water.

Check Mate Andrei. King Bam wins.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 29^th, 2014 at 8:03am:

I'm not Accountant. I am Finance. Accounting do the SEC reporting ad financial statements for SOX etc. Finance do the forward planning, we are the business partners, we roll the capex forecasts, we advise on profit based decisions. Finance cannot do the job without intrinsically knowing the business. Gas fracking is the future of energy supplementing for the next decades. Trust me. The profits are good.

What about the damage to the underground aquifers?

They are poisoned with chemicals & radioactive elements get released as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl35lXbKlSY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayhPNCUoQ7I

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 29^th, 2014 at 8:03am:

I'm not Accountant. I am Finance. Accounting do the SEC reporting ad financial statements for SOX etc. Finance do the forward planning, we are the business partners, we roll the capex forecasts, we advise on profit based decisions. Finance cannot do the job without intrinsically knowing the business.

That would apply to anyone in the profession. To distinguish them - finance handles money in the future, accounting handles money in the past.


Quote:

Gas fracking is the future of energy supplementing for the next decades. Trust me. The profits are good.

We don't trust you. You are paid by the industry. You talk up the profits and handwave away the risks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cutGpoD3inc

Grendel wrote on Mar 29^th, 2014 at 8:10am:

Hicks...  offshore drilling is not the same as onshore drilling in a country which is the most arid populated one in the world and which depends on its aquifers for water now and into the future.

This is the essential point. We rely on aquifers for a lot of our water, especially in the arid parts of our country where it is the only reliable water supply. If anyone's doing CSG exploration in the Great Artesian Basin or its catchments, they should be taken out the back and shot. We can't afford to have such an important aquifer rendered unusable in whole or in part.


Quote:

We've already had an accident which has made an important aquifer non viable.  It took an accident to get them to stop this crap before too much damage gets done.  It's probably too late for Qld they're an accident waiting to happen.

Liability is far too lax and the penalties far too low. Contaminating an aquifer merits a $1500 fine and no commitment to undo the damage? That penalty is jaw-dropping in its inadequacy. Add three zeroes to the end of that fine and make the company pay for an alternative water supply to the affected people until the aquifer is safe again, then the penalty would be adequate.


Quote:

Motivation for the industry GREED....  they lie about the need for gas and new sources...  they are flogging our gas off at low prices to China etc and depleting our reserves not using it for us and our future.

Another problem is that this industry greed is forcing up gas prices due to an industry desire to make Australians pay world market prices for gas. This is not necessary. Oil-rich countries usually have very cheap fuel - fillling up your car in Venezuela or Saudi Arabia is a lot cheaper than here.


Quote:

Due to the parlous state of the NSW books labor and this government have allowed themselves to be scammed in hopes of a financial windfall.  They saw this as a way out of those difficulties, the goose that laid the golden egg.  Problem is this goose is pooing in our water.

It's not an exclusive problem of NSW Labor. Both sides of politics are complicit in allowing CSG free reign.

It's already banned in France -

they don't want their underground water polluted for ever.

FARMERS RALLY AGAINST MINERS
http://broelman.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/broelman-march12a.jpg
http://broelman.wordpress.com/2014/03/22/farmers-rally-against-miners/

Bam wrote on Mar 29^th, 2014 at 9:29am:

Grendel wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 8:10am: Hicks...  offshore drilling is not the same as onshore drilling in a country which is the most arid populated one in the world and which depends on its aquifers for water now and into the future. This is the essential point. We rely on aquifers for a lot of our water, especially in the arid parts of our country where it is the only reliable water supply. If anyone's doing CSG exploration in the Great Artesian Basin or its catchments, they should be taken out the back and shot. We can't afford to have such an important aquifer rendered unusable in whole or in part. Quote: We've already had an accident which has made an important aquifer non viable.  It took an accident to get them to stop this crap before too much damage gets done.  It's probably too late for Qld they're an accident waiting to happen. Liability is far too lax and the penalties far too low. Contaminating an aquifer merits a $1500 fine and no commitment to undo the damage? That penalty is jaw-dropping in its inadequacy. Add three zeroes to the end of that fine and make the company pay for an alternative water supply to the affected people until the aquifer is safe again, then the penalty would be adequate. [quote]Motivation for the industry GREED....  they lie about the need for gas and new sources...  they are flogging our gas off at low prices to China etc and depleting our reserves not using it for us and our future.

Another problem is that this industry greed is forcing up gas prices due to an industry desire to make Australians pay world market prices for gas. This is not necessary. Oil-rich countries usually have very cheap fuel - fillling up your car in Venezuela or Saudi Arabia is a lot cheaper than here.


Quote:

Due to the parlous state of the NSW books labor and this government have allowed themselves to be scammed in hopes of a financial windfall.  They saw this as a way out of those difficulties, the goose that laid the golden egg.  Problem is this goose is pooing in our water.

It's not an exclusive problem of NSW Labor. Both sides of politics are complicit in allowing CSG free reign. perhaps you need a holiday or an eye test...  I'm sure I can see this government mentioned above. ::) ::) ::)
[/quote]

Grendel wrote on Mar 29^th, 2014 at 9:34pm:

Bam wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 9:29am: Grendel wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 8:10am: Hicks...  offshore drilling is not the same as onshore drilling in a country which is the most arid populated one in the world and which depends on its aquifers for water now and into the future. This is the essential point. We rely on aquifers for a lot of our water, especially in the arid parts of our country where it is the only reliable water supply. If anyone's doing CSG exploration in the Great Artesian Basin or its catchments, they should be taken out the back and shot. We can't afford to have such an important aquifer rendered unusable in whole or in part. Quote: We've already had an accident which has made an important aquifer non viable.  It took an accident to get them to stop this crap before too much damage gets done.  It's probably too late for Qld they're an accident waiting to happen. Liability is far too lax and the penalties far too low. Contaminating an aquifer merits a $1500 fine and no commitment to undo the damage? That penalty is jaw-dropping in its inadequacy. Add three zeroes to the end of that fine and make the company pay for an alternative water supply to the affected people until the aquifer is safe again, then the penalty would be adequate. [quote]Motivation for the industry GREED....  they lie about the need for gas and new sources...  they are flogging our gas off at low prices to China etc and depleting our reserves not using it for us and our future. Another problem is that this industry greed is forcing up gas prices due to an industry desire to make Australians pay world market prices for gas. This is not necessary. Oil-rich countries usually have very cheap fuel - fillling up your car in Venezuela or Saudi Arabia is a lot cheaper than here. [quote]Due to the parlous state of the NSW books labor and this government have allowed themselves to be scammed in hopes of a financial windfall.  They saw this as a way out of those difficulties, the goose that laid the golden egg.  Problem is this goose is pooing in our water.

It's not an exclusive problem of NSW Labor. Both sides of politics are complicit in allowing CSG free reign. perhaps you need a holiday or an eye test...  I'm sure I can see this government mentioned above. ::) ::) ::)
[/quote]
[/quote]
It's happening all over the country, supported by both sides of politics. That was the intent of my statement. CSG Limited donates to both Liberal and Labor.

Bam wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 8:51am:

Grendel wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 9:34pm: Bam wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 9:29am: Grendel wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 8:10am: Hicks...  offshore drilling is not the same as onshore drilling in a country which is the most arid populated one in the world and which depends on its aquifers for water now and into the future. This is the essential point. We rely on aquifers for a lot of our water, especially in the arid parts of our country where it is the only reliable water supply. If anyone's doing CSG exploration in the Great Artesian Basin or its catchments, they should be taken out the back and shot. We can't afford to have such an important aquifer rendered unusable in whole or in part. Quote: We've already had an accident which has made an important aquifer non viable.  It took an accident to get them to stop this crap before too much damage gets done.  It's probably too late for Qld they're an accident waiting to happen. Liability is far too lax and the penalties far too low. Contaminating an aquifer merits a $1500 fine and no commitment to undo the damage? That penalty is jaw-dropping in its inadequacy. Add three zeroes to the end of that fine and make the company pay for an alternative water supply to the affected people until the aquifer is safe again, then the penalty would be adequate. [quote]Motivation for the industry GREED....  they lie about the need for gas and new sources...  they are flogging our gas off at low prices to China etc and depleting our reserves not using it for us and our future. Another problem is that this industry greed is forcing up gas prices due to an industry desire to make Australians pay world market prices for gas. This is not necessary. Oil-rich countries usually have very cheap fuel - fillling up your car in Venezuela or Saudi Arabia is a lot cheaper than here. [quote]Due to the parlous state of the NSW books labor and this government have allowed themselves to be scammed in hopes of a financial windfall.  They saw this as a way out of those difficulties, the goose that laid the golden egg.  Problem is this goose is pooing in our water. It's not an exclusive problem of NSW Labor. Both sides of politics are complicit in allowing CSG free reign. perhaps you need a holiday or an eye test...  I'm sure I can see this government mentioned above. ::) ::) ::)

[/quote]
It's happening all over the country, supported by both sides of politics. That was the intent of my statement. CSG Limited donates to both Liberal and Labor.
[/quote]
Good grief...  My comment was about NSW, I'd already mentioned QLD, and they are the 2 main states involved, my comment included both sides of politics, I'm dubious about your intent, "CSG Limited" is a print and communications company...  btw in both cases the major culprit has been the state Labor governments who let them get their foot in the door.

Grendel wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 10:32am:

Good grief...  My comment was about NSW, I'd already mentioned QLD, and they are the 2 main states involved, my comment included both sides of politics, I'm dubious about your intent, "CSG Limited" is a print and communications company...

You appear to be correct with the print company as far as ASIC registration is concerned, but it is not that simple.

The trouble with companies with three letters in their name is that it is so easy to confuse them. There's multiple companies called "CSG Limited" around the world. The one in Aberdeen is a cleaning company, then there's Credit Suisse Group.

The AFR paywall made it appear that CSG Limited was a coal seam gas company, but the AFR paywall made that unclear. Damn paywall, otherwise I would have spotted the error sooner. Good catch on your part.


Quote:

btw in both cases the major culprit has been the state Labor governments who let them get their foot in the door.

That is more an accident of history than any other cause. In 2007 when Howard lost office, how many Coalition state and territory governments were there around the country? None. Who's to say that the government of the day weren't conned by a business with a slick marketing presentation? It's not like it hasn't happened before with governments on both sides of politics.

Bobby. wrote on Mar 29^th, 2014 at 9:42am:

It's already banned in France - they don't want their underground water polluted for ever.

It's not permanently banned but rather delayed.
The industry is pretty much agreed though unofficially that no cracked energy will be supplied to France until they approve it.
Their resulting higher consumer prices may force them to re think.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 5:22pm:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 9:42am: It's already banned in France - they don't want their underground water polluted for ever. It's not permanently banned but rather delayed. The industry is pretty much agreed though unofficially that no cracked energy will be supplied to France until they approve it. Their resulting higher consumer prices may force them to re think.

Nothing wrong with a bit of good old fashioned blackmail. ::)

http://www.gasfieldfreebyronshire.org/news/bentley/bentley-rolling-updates-from-sunday-30-march/

Quote:

Nan Nicholson describes the general feeling among the Bentley village residents as outrage. They are more understanding that the one exploratory well is just the thin end of a wedge, and the totality of a gasfield is something far far bigger and with huge impact. They were told a half-truth by Metgasco about natural gas, and led to believe that fracking would not be involved, but Metgasco is also looking for tight gas, which would have to be fracked. The farmer whose land Metgasco is on, Robbie Graham, was specifically misled to expect a single well and no social objections! The farmer whose land the camp “Liberty” is on, Mr Scarabelotti, has experienced of the gasfield round Roma, QLD, and is now totally opposed to them. In general terms the public has been misled particularly re jobs, how many gained short-term by non-locals, how many lost permanently by locals.

It's not blackmail.
France is perfectly entitled to choose how it approves energy sourcing.

If they choose to ignore a source which has passed regulatory standards in 23 other developed world nations that's it's lookout.

However therefore it does not get the benefits from an energy source fracked elsewhere.
Their energy prices as a result will need to rise.
Their choice.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

It's not blackmail. France is perfectly entitled to choose how it approves energy sourcing. If they choose to ignore a source which has passed regulatory standards in 23 other developed world nations that's it's lookout. However therefore it does not get the benefits from an energy source fracked elsewhere. Their energy prices as a result will need to rise. Their choice.

France will get the gas if they are willing to pay, end of story.
Spin whatever you want and no doubt until push comes to shove your argument will stand but in the end CSG is fracked for profit and for profit it will be sold.
When have morals or bans ever stood in the way of a $$ especially in the oil and gas sector.

The same argument is being run in Australia, frack or pay more.
However I heard on an interview most of the proposed gas wll be exported rather than used to lower or at least maintain current prices.

Frankly if we are going to pay more regardless it should be in taxation to fund renewables.
Don't come back with governments blah blah & business should stand on its own blah blah, most if not all buisness that benefits the country have been at least at first sponsord by governments.

Here's the presser, by all means refute the points but give it a bit more thought than just "look who wrote it"

http://zeroemissions.org.au/media/releases/nsw-gas-crisis-fabricated-myth-export-csg-industry

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

It's not blackmail. France is perfectly entitled to choose how it approves energy sourcing. If they choose to ignore a source which has passed regulatory standards in 23 other developed world nations that's it's lookout. However therefore it does not get the benefits from an energy source fracked elsewhere. Their energy prices as a result will need to rise. Their choice.

If the industry agreed to not supply them with gas until they allowed fracking, it is blackmail. They should be allowed to buy anything on the market that is legally for sale. N'est pas?

http://csgfreenorthernrivers.org/


Bentley blockade: Damn them hippies! ::)
https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/l/t1.0-9/q71/s720x720/1890992_239255519580090_2131552536_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t31.0-8/p180x540/1836960_684919908217492_1818596391_o.jpg
More to come, I suppose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04XmMhpXaEc&feature=share

Another dirty hippy! Where do these people spring from!?
Chemicals, Climate and Unconventional Gas by Dr Mariann Lloyd-Smith
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsDukbcnue4

I think you overplay the hippy card.
That's not how it's viewed.

More that we as an industry of educating people that as a source it is no more dangerous than regular drilling now and safeguards are in place.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 9:17pm:

I think you overplay the hippy card. That's not how it's viewed. More that we as an industry of educating people that as a source it is no more dangerous than regular drilling now and safeguards are in place.

Why? Aren't all environmentalists dirty hippies? Not farmers, business people, doctors, all sections of the community here, 87% of them? That's certainly the way it's portrayed by the opponents here all to often. Don't like a bit of sarcasm? I'm quite a fan of it myself. Forgive us if we don't believe you, we'll go on what you have done as what you said then was it was safe and it's the same as you are saying now, why should we believe you? I think any sane person would be a fool to believe your "new beaut ways" are all good. ::)

edit: Surely you don't imagine that all these "hippies", 87% of the community in a small city and it's University(SCU) researchers are crazy mad conspiracy nuts and should just believe you? :o

Nothing is 100% safe.
But being in one of the highest regulated sectors in the world we can guarantee that all can be done is being done.

There are outlet release valves placed at each 25m points on the upstream release sectors.
The fracking process has been shortened to burst levels of 50% previous processes.
Testing of the surrounds are taken daily now as part of processes at point of delivery and source.

All of the data is recorded and tracked to stay below minimal natural occurring pollution levels.

Maybe all those things?

All US Environment Agency approved.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 9:31pm:

Nothing is 100% safe. But being in one of the highest regulated sectors in the world we can guarantee that all can be done is being done. There are outlet release valves placed at each 25m points on the upstream release sectors. The fracking process has been shortened to burst levels of 50% previous processes. Testing of the surrounds are taken daily now as part of processes at point of delivery and source. All of the data is recorded and tracked to stay below minimal natural occurring pollution levels. Maybe all those things? All US Environment Agency approved.

The Tara gas fields don't agree with you. Are you saying, meh, that was then, this is now and we're much better now? It doesn't cut it Andrei.

The main thing you don't get is that the people don't want it, they have seen what Tara is like, many have visited there, it's not far away. Should foreign gas needs/wants override our needs/wants here? Should business interests outweigh the population they operate in? What rights do the people on the land, the farmers, and the people that consume their produce have? Do we have or should we have a business dictatorship?

Edit: If you want to test your theory that anyone can be bought, try buying of some of the locals here. Sure you might get a few but that saying, "everyone has a price" is used by people like you and is projection. You have a price, therefore everyone has a price. I don't agree with you, try and buy me.

Edit2: You just convinced me to donate more money to feed the blockaders. Feel free to give me a warning/delete if the following is against the rules..

Quote:

Please share this information if you live in the Northern Rivers Region. This is NOT an alert. The word on the ground at Bentley is that this coming Monday morning 31st March is a likely time for authorities to move in. This move will likely take place early in the morning, perhaps 5am and involve police officers moving protectors on. The more people on the ground the better. This date is only a guess and things could start moving at any time soon. If you can put aside some time and be ready to drive out early in the morning, this is the best and most effective way any of us can contribute! The people on the ground at Bentley need three (3) things most: (A) Food (B) Shelter (C) Money You can donate directly to the anti-CSG fight via the following account: Summerland Credit Union BSB 728-728 Acc No. 22299016 Name: Nimbin Environment Centre

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 9:17pm:

I think you overplay the hippy card. That's not how it's viewed. More that we as an industry of educating people that as a source it is no more dangerous than regular drilling now and safeguards are in place.

Yeah - but the fact remains that it is being syphoned off overseas for the profit of your company and is not going to Australians first.... while our gas prices will rise anyway.

Might as well stop it right there.....

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 10:26pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 30th, 2014 at 9:17pm: I think you overplay the hippy card. That's not how it's viewed. More that we as an industry of educating people that as a source it is no more dangerous than regular drilling now and safeguards are in place. Yeah - but the fact remains that it is being syphoned off overseas for the profit of your company and is not going to Australians first.... while our gas prices will rise anyway. Might as well stop it right there.....

This is exactly why they are dredging the Great Barrier Reef. To make a port deep enough to sell it offshore at world parity pricing. There is a pipeline planned to move the gas from here, north through QLD to Gladstone.

I was not of the view that we Australians were put here to subsidise and advance the profits of international companies..... and pay their prices at 'world parity' for our own resources.

I believe the time has come for this entire process of 'licensing' to be reviewed and set right so as to benefit us first, if and when any such venture is totally safe and totally non-intrusive on the land and people.

If we must needs play on some mythical 'global market' - then we will do so on the basis of setting the prices for our products - those who do not wish to buy can go elsewhere.

Your locals are nothing to do with us mate.

Our hydraulic fracking is done by JV in Australia

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 10:54pm:

I was not of the view that we Australians were put here to subsidise and advance the profits of international companies..... and pay their prices at 'world parity' for our own resources. I believe the time has come for this entire process of 'licensing' to be reviewed and set right so as to benefit us first, if and when any such venture is totally safe and totally non-intrusive on the land and people. If we must needs play on some mythical 'global market' - then we will do so on the basis of setting the prices for our products - those who do not wish to buy can go elsewhere.

Never underestimate the worshippers of Mammon, their faith is supreme. :-/

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 11:12pm:

Your locals are nothing to do with us mate. Our hydraulic fracking is done by JV in Australia

Nothing to do with your lot but you have subsidiaries doing your work?  :o
Yep you make sense, sorry Andrei! ;)

Edit: Just to make it perfectly clear about what I think of your excuse..
I didn't murder anyone, I paid a hitman, I'm innocent! Nothing to do with me!

Setanta wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 11:17pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 30th, 2014 at 11:12pm: Your locals are nothing to do with us mate. Our hydraulic fracking is done by JV in Australia Nothing to do with your lot but you have subsidiaries doing your work?  :o Yep you make sense, sorry Andrei! ;) Edit: Just to make it perfectly clear about what I think of your excuse.. I didn't murder anyone, I paid a hitman, I'm innocent! Nothing to do with me!

A JV is not a subsidiary!

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 10:26pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 30th, 2014 at 9:17pm: I think you overplay the hippy card. That's not how it's viewed. More that we as an industry of educating people that as a source it is no more dangerous than regular drilling now and safeguards are in place. Yeah - but the fact remains that it is being syphoned off overseas for the profit of your company and is not going to Australians first.... while our gas prices will rise anyway. Might as well stop it right there.....

You understand that any profits made on sales by the AU&NZ subsidiary in taxed in Australia and - one would assume - then spent to benefit Australians?

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 10:54pm:

I was not of the view that we Australians were put here to subsidise and advance the profits of international companies..... and pay their prices at 'world parity' for our own resources. I believe the time has come for this entire process of 'licensing' to be reviewed and set right so as to benefit us first, if and when any such venture is totally safe and totally non-intrusive on the land and people. If we must needs play on some mythical 'global market' - then we will do so on the basis of setting the prices for our products - those who do not wish to buy can go elsewhere.

Australians should be paying similar prices for Australian gas, relatively speaking (both natural and
CSG, once issues are addressed) to what Saudis pay for Saudi oil, ie sweet frack-all (like the pun?).

This whole 'world parity' scam is exactly that.

We're being scammed.

Bam wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 11:45am:

Grendel wrote on Mar 30th, 2014 at 10:32am: Good grief...  My comment was about NSW, I'd already mentioned QLD, and they are the 2 main states involved, my comment included both sides of politics, I'm dubious about your intent, "CSG Limited" is a print and communications company... You appear to be correct with the print company as far as ASIC registration is concerned, but it is not that simple. The trouble with companies with three letters in their name is that it is so easy to confuse them. There's multiple companies called "CSG Limited" around the world. The one in Aberdeen is a cleaning company, then there's Credit Suisse Group. The AFR paywall made it appear that CSG Limited was a coal seam gas company, but the AFR paywall made that unclear. Damn paywall, otherwise I would have spotted the error sooner. Good catch on your part. Quote: btw in both cases the major culprit has been the state Labor governments who let them get their foot in the door. That is more an accident of history than any other cause. In 2007 when Howard lost office, how many Coalition state and territory governments were there around the country? None. Who's to say that the government of the day weren't conned by a business with a slick marketing presentation? It's not like it hasn't happened before with governments on both sides of politics.

None the less...  in this case it is a fact.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 11:12pm:

Your locals are nothing to do with us mate. Our hydraulic fracking is done by JV in Australia

Ah yes - the old corporate cut-out trick, eh?

It's not us - any problems are from that company we hired to do the work for us while we ream the cream off - just because they are hired by us doesn't mean we should accept responsibility, even if they are a subsidiary or whatever.

I see a change of laws coming here.....

Vote 1 Grappler Party....We ARE the people!

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 1:05am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Mar 30th, 2014 at 10:26pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 30th, 2014 at 9:17pm: I think you overplay the hippy card. That's not how it's viewed. More that we as an industry of educating people that as a source it is no more dangerous than regular drilling now and safeguards are in place. Yeah - but the fact remains that it is being syphoned off overseas for the profit of your company and is not going to Australians first.... while our gas prices will rise anyway. Might as well stop it right there..... You understand that any profits made on sales by the AU&NZ subsidiary in taxed in Australia and - one would assume - then spent to benefit Australians?

Indeed - but it is the nuts and bolts of that taxation that are the important aspect - along with the fact that every such license should carry with it a requirement to satisfy the local market first at a proper price related to effort rather than this absurd 'world parity' nonsense (same as the Ay-rabs do with petrol), and return some direct benefit to the populace rather than handing it to those corporate vultures and wastrels in Canberra to dispose of as they see fit without let or constraint.

Tax the tax dodges first - then we'll talk.  Or cancel the whole deal.

To do otherwise is to permit corporate pirates to come into our agreedly third world banana republic, rip out what they want, and then sell it back to us at multiple value added.

Good business for some - not for the majority.

'We' don't need fracking - there's heaps of gas around - it's all in the deals our governments have used to sign away our use of it so they could recoup taxes and run the show totally.

On which last subject - do you not view it as bizarre that corporations expect that they will be treated to a great degree of latitude - but that the ordinary person should not be so treated?  Feudal robber baron mentality right there from both corporations and governments.

Truly there is a day of judgement coming here..

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 30^th, 2014 at 9:17pm:

I think you overplay the hippy card. That's not how it's viewed. More that we as an industry of educating people that as a source it is no more dangerous than regular drilling now and safeguards are in place.

Well then EDUCATE yourself on this issue Andrei.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSWmXpEkEPg

Is there really the gas shortage that CSG companies spruik?

http://www.smh.com.au/business/nsw-to-press-on-with-coal-seam-gas-hartcher-20120515-1yo6c.html

Quote:

Yesterday BHP Billiton Petroleum chief Mike Yeager told journalists the company had plenty of gas for sale to supply east coast markets. “We want to make sure that the market knows that the Bass Strait field still has a large amount of gas that's undeveloped,”.Mr Yeager said. “We have a lot of gas in eastern Australia that's available. It's more important to let the citizens of Victoria and New South Wales, and to some degree, you know, even Queensland .. there's plenty of gas to supply those provinces for - you know, indefinitely. “We have gas for sale and we will work with anybody at any time,” he said.

Or is the real gas shortage they want to fill in China?

Setanta wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:03am:

Is there really the gas shortage that CSG companies spruik? http://www.smh.com.au/business/nsw-to-press-on-with-coal-seam-gas-hartcher-20120515-1yo6c.html Quote: Yesterday BHP Billiton Petroleum chief Mike Yeager told journalists the company had plenty of gas for sale to supply east coast markets. “We want to make sure that the market knows that the Bass Strait field still has a large amount of gas that's undeveloped,”.Mr Yeager said. “We have a lot of gas in eastern Australia that's available. It's more important to let the citizens of Victoria and New South Wales, and to some degree, you know, even Queensland .. there's plenty of gas to supply those provinces for - you know, indefinitely. “We have gas for sale and we will work with anybody at any time,” he said. Or is the real gas shortage they want to fill in China?

I think I heard a comment from someone in the industry that if we were to stop exporting at the rate we are there'd be plenty of gas way into the future for all Australians.
Gas companies want to keep exporting they'd export all our gas if the could.

Grendel wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:13am:

Setanta wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 10:03am: Is there really the gas shortage that CSG companies spruik? http://www.smh.com.au/business/nsw-to-press-on-with-coal-seam-gas-hartcher-20120515-1yo6c.html Quote: Yesterday BHP Billiton Petroleum chief Mike Yeager told journalists the company had plenty of gas for sale to supply east coast markets. “We want to make sure that the market knows that the Bass Strait field still has a large amount of gas that's undeveloped,”.Mr Yeager said. “We have a lot of gas in eastern Australia that's available. It's more important to let the citizens of Victoria and New South Wales, and to some degree, you know, even Queensland .. there's plenty of gas to supply those provinces for - you know, indefinitely. “We have gas for sale and we will work with anybody at any time,” he said. Or is the real gas shortage they want to fill in China? I think I heard a comment from someone in the industry that if we were to stop exporting at the rate we are there'd be plenty of gas way into the future for all Australians. Gas companies want to keep exporting they'd export all our gas if the could.

There's such a thing called global supply and demand.
You want to go protectionist and put up a barrier of trade restricting it to domestic only??

Not sure I'd advise a little country to do that.

Grendel wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:13am:

I think I heard a comment from someone in the industry that if we were to stop exporting at the rate we are there'd be plenty of gas way into the future for all Australians. Gas companies want to keep exporting they'd export all our gas if the could.

The media is finally paying some attention to this looming crisis. There is some indication that a huge number of Australian businesses will close their doors - not because of a carbon tax, but the price of gas due to a short supply. In fact in the next few years we may not have enough gas to accommodate Australians/businesses.

Most western countries reserve a percentage of their gas in the national interest, but not Australia. We're going to run out because we are exporting most of it and local industry can't afford the domestic prices.

Successive governments have ignored this problem, but someone has to do something about it now.


Quote:

Thousands of job losses have been announced in Australia in the past year, but the numbers will pale by comparison to what lies ahead due to high gas prices, according to major manufacturers. The association representing Australian manufacturers believes more than 100,000 jobs will be lost unless the Federal Government intervenes to solve an increasing gas shortage that is pushing up prices for households and heavily job-laden industries. The irony is that Australia is producing more gas than ever, and is on track to become the world's largest exporter of gas, with contracts to supply fuel-starved Asian markets prepared to pay triple the prices Australians do for energy. The manufacturing industry says it wants a system similar to the US where gas is not exported unless it first meets a national interest test. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-27/gas-boom-threatens-australian-manufacturing-jobs/5349822

Conventional gas reserves from http://data.daff.gov.au/data/warehouse/pe_aera_d9aae_002/aeraCh_04.pdf
CSG is certainly not needed for Australia's needs.

---

mantra wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:34am:

Grendel wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 10:13am: I think I heard a comment from someone in the industry that if we were to stop exporting at the rate we are there'd be plenty of gas way into the future for all Australians. Gas companies want to keep exporting they'd export all our gas if the could. The media is finally paying some attention to this looming crisis. There is some indication that a huge number of Australian businesses will close their doors - not because of a carbon tax, but the price of gas due to a short supply. In fact in the next few years we may not have enough gas to accommodate Australians/businesses. Most western countries reserve a percentage of their gas in the national interest, but not Australia. We're going to run out because we are exporting most of it and local industry can't afford the domestic prices. Successive governments have ignored this problem, but someone has to do something about it now. Quote: Thousands of job losses have been announced in Australia in the past year, but the numbers will pale by comparison to what lies ahead due to high gas prices, according to major manufacturers. The association representing Australian manufacturers believes more than 100,000 jobs will be lost unless the Federal Government intervenes to solve an increasing gas shortage that is pushing up prices for households and heavily job-laden industries. The irony is that Australia is producing more gas than ever, and is on track to become the world's largest exporter of gas, with contracts to supply fuel-starved Asian markets prepared to pay triple the prices Australians do for energy. The manufacturing industry says it wants a system similar to the US where gas is not exported unless it first meets a national interest test. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-27/gas-boom-threatens-australian-manufacturing-jobs/5349822

Quote:

"Anyone such as Chris Hartcher (NSW Energy Minister) or the Australian Petroleum Production and Exploration Association (APPEA), or the Energy Supply Association of Australia (ESAA) campaigning for more domestic gas to be brought online is doing a benevolent act for the coal seam gas export industry, an industry geared up for providing international consumers, who will pay higher prices, with gas, not Australian gas consumers.. "If you could imagine a new oil field as big as the super fields in South Australia coming online in Tasmania or in the Great Australian Bight, it wouldn't lower petrol prices at your local service station, it wouldn't change that one iota as the price is set in Singapore, London or New York.  The same goes for gas, once we're linked to international markets that is the price the domestic industry will have to pay, the asia price, the global price.  And remember the domestic gas industry is the oil industry, they're the oil and gas industry, peas in the same pod. "Gas supplies less than 10 per cent of NSW energy demand and historically that has all been imported from South Australia's Cooper Basin via Moomba and Victoria,” Mr Wright said. ”NSW never supplied its own gas, was never self-sufficient and therefore cannot run out. The supplies that are already connected and available to NSW consumers from Victoria and South Australia aren't about to run out any time soon either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vQaVIoEjOM

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:23am:

Grendel wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 10:13am: Setanta wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 10:03am: Is there really the gas shortage that CSG companies spruik? http://www.smh.com.au/business/nsw-to-press-on-with-coal-seam-gas-hartcher-20120515-1yo6c.html Quote: Yesterday BHP Billiton Petroleum chief Mike Yeager told journalists the company had plenty of gas for sale to supply east coast markets. “We want to make sure that the market knows that the Bass Strait field still has a large amount of gas that's undeveloped,”.Mr Yeager said. “We have a lot of gas in eastern Australia that's available. It's more important to let the citizens of Victoria and New South Wales, and to some degree, you know, even Queensland .. there's plenty of gas to supply those provinces for - you know, indefinitely. “We have gas for sale and we will work with anybody at any time,” he said. Or is the real gas shortage they want to fill in China? I think I heard a comment from someone in the industry that if we were to stop exporting at the rate we are there'd be plenty of gas way into the future for all Australians. Gas companies want to keep exporting they'd export all our gas if the could. There's such a thing called global supply and demand. You want to go protectionist and put up a barrier of trade restricting it to domestic only?? Not sure I'd advise a little country to do that.

Indeed there is - but who says we need to play on that field?

The global supply and demand will continue and will still seek our resources regardless of whether or not we FIRST satisfy our own markets internally at a reasonable price - and not the jumped-up export it first then buy it back price that benefits companies two ways - firstly by giving them all the tax breaks for exporting - secondly by gaining that 'value added' price from US after we buy it back in one form or another.

Good business for the middle men ONLY, and one massive social reversion to the days of the Empire and firstly exploiting the 'lesser peoples' for their resources, and then selling it back to them as 'finished goods' etc.

Now WE are the 'lesser peoples' - due to this piratical style of 'business' that our governments of both sides have actively promoted.

So - let's just say we refuse you an export licence until our local market is filled at a fair internal price - you can offshore the surplus.

Still want to leave the deal?   Not On Your Life!

Our local market is miniscule - I see no reason for your ilk to rip us off both ways over resources in our own country.  consider it a part of your contract from now on.

So - are you suggesting that if we close the shutters a little - as a small country we will be invaded?

Setanta wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:35am:

Conventional gas reserves from http://data.daff.gov.au/data/warehouse/pe_aera_d9aae_002/aeraCh_04.pdf CSG is certainly not needed for Australia's needs.

According to Australian manufacturing we do need it. Just because we're a small country doesn't mean we have to be stupid.

WA sets aside 15% of their gas for local needs.


Quote:

Australian gas producers hoarding stock for export: manufacturers Along the east coast, manufacturers say big gas producers are now cutting back gas supply contracts for local industry to hoard gas for export. It is a trend that has increased as huge new LNG shipping facilities off Gladstone in Queensland get closer to completion. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-27/gas-boom-threatens-australian-manufacturing-jobs/5349822

mantra wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 2:50pm:

Setanta wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 10:35am: Conventional gas reserves from http://data.daff.gov.au/data/warehouse/pe_aera_d9aae_002/aeraCh_04.pdf CSG is certainly not needed for Australia's needs. According to Australian manufacturing we do need it. Just because we're a small country doesn't mean we have to be stupid. WA sets aside 15% of their gas for local needs. Quote: Australian gas producers hoarding stock for export: manufacturers Along the east coast, manufacturers say big gas producers are now cutting back gas supply contracts for local industry to hoard gas for export. It is a trend that has increased as huge new LNG shipping facilities off Gladstone in Queensland get closer to completion. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-27/gas-boom-threatens-australian-manufacturing-jobs/5349822

Nah, we don't need CSG, there's plenty of conventional natural gas. As you point out it's being exported, the same will happen with CSG and the manufactures will still be no better off. We should shelve CSG and force the gas companies to reserve gas for our needs and sell the remainder.

I had a quick look did not notice this so here it is, sorry to Setanta if he has already posted it. At the Bentley protest there were over two thousand  people camped out there last night. Considering Lismore only has a population of around 40000 including its villages that is a huge amount. More of course turned up today, I heard the two thousand plus figure on the way to work at 7 am this morning.

skippy. wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 3:41pm:

I had a quick look did not notice this so here it is, sorry to Setanta if he has already posted it. At the Bentley protest there were over two thousand  people camped out there last night. Considering Lismore only has a population of around 40000 including its villages that is a huge amount. More of course turned up today, I heard the two thousand plus figure on the way to work at 7 am this morning.

No, I hadn't posted that yet. I was waiting for pics to post to show the "rent a crowd" of filthy hippies. ;)

Cops didn't turn up today apparently because of the number, they have 100 police and 100 riot squad standing by using Bentley RFS station as it's command centre.. The RFS are not pleased, the OK was given in Sydney, not locally.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t31.0-8/q72/s720x720/1932586_473338652767034_1134919547_o.jpg
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lockthegatealliance/sets/72157643149394724

Setanta wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 3:55pm:

skippy. wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 3:41pm: I had a quick look did not notice this so here it is, sorry to Setanta if he has already posted it. At the Bentley protest there were over two thousand  people camped out there last night. Considering Lismore only has a population of around 40000 including its villages that is a huge amount. More of course turned up today, I heard the two thousand plus figure on the way to work at 7 am this morning. No, I hadn't posted that yet. I was waiting for pics to post to show the "rent a crowd" of filthy hippies. ;) Cops didn't turn up today apparently because of the number, they have 100 police and 100 riot squad standing by using Bentley RFS station as it's command centre.. The RFS are not pleased, the OK was given in Sydney, not locally. https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t31.0-8/q72/s720x720/1932586_473338652767034_1134919547_o.jpg https://www.flickr.com/photos/lockthegatealliance/sets/72157643149394724

Yea I heard that on the radio this morning too, the bloke speaking was apparently from the family that gifted the land to the RFS in the first place. He said they had a  vote at the Bentley  RFS and they all voted no but were over ruled by head office.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:23am:

Grendel wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 10:13am: Setanta wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 10:03am: Is there really the gas shortage that CSG companies spruik? http://www.smh.com.au/business/nsw-to-press-on-with-coal-seam-gas-hartcher-20120515-1yo6c.html Quote: Yesterday BHP Billiton Petroleum chief Mike Yeager told journalists the company had plenty of gas for sale to supply east coast markets. “We want to make sure that the market knows that the Bass Strait field still has a large amount of gas that's undeveloped,”.Mr Yeager said. “We have a lot of gas in eastern Australia that's available. It's more important to let the citizens of Victoria and New South Wales, and to some degree, you know, even Queensland .. there's plenty of gas to supply those provinces for - you know, indefinitely. “We have gas for sale and we will work with anybody at any time,” he said. Or is the real gas shortage they want to fill in China? I think I heard a comment from someone in the industry that if we were to stop exporting at the rate we are there'd be plenty of gas way into the future for all Australians. Gas companies want to keep exporting they'd export all our gas if the could. There's such a thing called global supply and demand. You want to go protectionist and put up a barrier of trade restricting it to domestic only?? Not sure I'd advise a little country to do that.

Any sensible country would keep what they need and only export surplus.  ::) ::) ::)

Grendel wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 5:01pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 10:23am: There's such a thing called global supply and demand. You want to go protectionist and put up a barrier of trade restricting it to domestic only?? Not sure I'd advise a little country to do that. Any sensible country would keep what they need and only export surplus.  ::) ::) ::)

Australian resources for Australians first.

Bam wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 6:12pm:

Grendel wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 5:01pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 10:23am: There's such a thing called global supply and demand. You want to go protectionist and put up a barrier of trade restricting it to domestic only?? Not sure I'd advise a little country to do that. Any sensible country would keep what they need and only export surplus.  ::) ::) ::) Australian resources for Australians first.

Global market capitalism. You are either in or out.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 6:42pm:

Bam wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 6:12pm: Grendel wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 5:01pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 10:23am: There's such a thing called global supply and demand. You want to go protectionist and put up a barrier of trade restricting it to domestic only?? Not sure I'd advise a little country to do that. Any sensible country would keep what they need and only export surplus.  ::) ::) ::) Australian resources for Australians first. Global market capitalism. You are either in or out.

Tell that to the USA.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 6:42pm:

Bam wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 6:12pm: Grendel wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 5:01pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 10:23am: There's such a thing called global supply and demand. You want to go protectionist and put up a barrier of trade restricting it to domestic only?? Not sure I'd advise a little country to do that. Any sensible country would keep what they need and only export surplus.  ::) ::) ::) Australian resources for Australians first. Global market capitalism. You are either in or out.

Relax, after Australia takes its fair share of the resources, there's still plenty left over for you to get your mitts on.

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:54am:

So - are you suggesting that if we close the shutters a little - as a small country we will be invaded?

No, I am saying that protectionist views of the world - which is what you are suggesting with this - is a very dangerous game to play if you don't have a decent hand of cards.

Think of it this way - the global trading market is made up of three major global spheres -

NAFTA - The USA, Canada and Mexico
The European Union
Asia Pacific - More loose but made up of the tiger economies backed up somewhat by the more regional powers of China and Japan.

Global trade is set on policy by a kind of "You mess with me, you mess with my whole family" kind of thing.

The EU can be protectionist in nature of somethings - eg bananas which it imports first from the West Indies due to the old colonies of Spain, France and the UK. The US doesn't like it but it can't get into a trade war with the size of the EU.

Now Australia sits in none of these. It is a tiny country on its own. It has a couple of decent cards in its natural resources but it isn't in a cartel, it isnt in a trading bloc so its vulnerable massively to retaliation trade protections.

Why do you think Saudi, Kuwait, Oman, UAE form the OPEC cartel on the oil policy?
For the exact reason I point out - you can't set protectionist agendas on your own.

There are 2 countries in the world in my opinion which can strike it alone and are big enough to call the shots - the United States and China.
The two largest markets in the world. They can because everyone else needs them.

Australia would be belted from pillar to post if it tried to hinder the free market and place bans on export - particularly over an issue such as energy.

If you want to play in the global market, you have to accept its conditions.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 6:42pm:

Bam wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 6:12pm: Grendel wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 5:01pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 10:23am: There's such a thing called global supply and demand. You want to go protectionist and put up a barrier of trade restricting it to domestic only?? Not sure I'd advise a little country to do that. Any sensible country would keep what they need and only export surplus.  ::) ::) ::) Australian resources for Australians first. Global market capitalism. You are either in or out.

Now that was a silly thing to say...  we can be in with our surplus.
As for Capitalism...  rampant capitalism is a big negative and hardly desirable.

Grendel wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 8:26pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 6:42pm: Bam wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 6:12pm: Grendel wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 5:01pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 10:23am: There's such a thing called global supply and demand. You want to go protectionist and put up a barrier of trade restricting it to domestic only?? Not sure I'd advise a little country to do that. Any sensible country would keep what they need and only export surplus.  ::) ::) ::) Australian resources for Australians first. Global market capitalism. You are either in or out. Now that was a silly thing to say...  we can be in with our surplus. As for Capitalism...  rampant capitalism is a big negative and hardly desirable.

You don't - as a little country on its own - pick and choose when to enter the global market.
You want be domestic only? See how far it gets you.

Before the state election, Barry O’Farrell said:


Quote:

The next Liberal/National Government will ensure that mining cannot occur in any water catchment area, and will ensure that mining leases and mining exploration permits reflect that common sense; no ifs, no buts, a guarantee.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 8:59pm:

Grendel wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 8:26pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 6:42pm: Bam wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 6:12pm: Grendel wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 5:01pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 10:23am: There's such a thing called global supply and demand. You want to go protectionist and put up a barrier of trade restricting it to domestic only?? Not sure I'd advise a little country to do that. Any sensible country would keep what they need and only export surplus.  ::) ::) ::) Australian resources for Australians first. Global market capitalism. You are either in or out. Now that was a silly thing to say...  we can be in with our surplus. As for Capitalism...  rampant capitalism is a big negative and hardly desirable. You don't - as a little country on its own - pick and choose when to enter the global market. You want be domestic only? See how far it gets you.

I wouldn't sell us short Andrei.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Australia

We were a much littler country before and much better off when we rode on the sheep's back. 
For a century, the wool industry gave Australia one of the highest living standards in the world. The economy rode high on wealth from primary exports.
In the late 19th century, Australia's economic strength relative to the rest of the world was reflected in its GDP. In 1870, Australia had the highest GDP per capita in the world due to economic growth fuelled by its natural resources.

You're a country of 20m people.

Compared to the trading blocs of NAFTA and the EU you are the size of an ant.

Any protectionist policies would hurt you. It's not a wise course of action.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 10:13pm:

You're a country of 20m people. Compared to the trading blocs of NAFTA and the EU you are the size of an ant. Any protectionist policies would hurt you. It's not a wise course of action.

Why was it I thought you were Australian?
We trade globally Andrei.
We have free trade agreements.
People want our resources and products.
Utilising these for our use is not being protectionist, just sensible.
The Canadians do not like NAFTA and would get out of it if they could without damage, it is largely to the US's advantage, not Mexico's and Canada's.

Australia is not in a trading bloc. It is a tiny country in global trade terms.
The energy materials drilled and sold for export in Australia are not subject to remaining in the country.

By the way neither major party in Australia has any plans to restrict its export either so that line of argument is just pissing in the wind.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Apr 1^st, 2014 at 8:11am:

Australia is not in a trading bloc. It is a tiny country in global trade terms. The energy materials drilled and sold for export in Australia are not subject to remaining in the country. By the way neither major party in Australia has any plans to restrict its export either so that line of argument is just pissing in the wind.

Fine, if you think that we can still tax the exports more and not tax local consumers, use the increased tax on exports to make up the difference. More than one way to skin a cat.

skippy. wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 4:19pm:

Setanta wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 3:55pm: skippy. wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 3:41pm: I had a quick look did not notice this so here it is, sorry to Setanta if he has already posted it. At the Bentley protest there were over two thousand  people camped out there last night. Considering Lismore only has a population of around 40000 including its villages that is a huge amount. More of course turned up today, I heard the two thousand plus figure on the way to work at 7 am this morning. No, I hadn't posted that yet. I was waiting for pics to post to show the "rent a crowd" of filthy hippies. ;) Cops didn't turn up today apparently because of the number, they have 100 police and 100 riot squad standing by using Bentley RFS station as it's command centre.. The RFS are not pleased, the OK was given in Sydney, not locally. https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t31.0-8/q72/s720x720/1932586_473338652767034_1134919547_o.jpg https://www.flickr.com/photos/lockthegatealliance/sets/72157643149394724 Yea I heard that on the radio this morning too, the bloke speaking was apparently from the family that gifted the land to the RFS in the first place. He said they had a  vote at the Bentley  RFS and they all voted no but were over ruled by head office.

Labor started CSG in NSW back in 2001, the leftists were silent about this for over a decade, they only became outraged when Labor was thrown out by the people of NSW.

Setanta wrote on Apr 1^st, 2014 at 8:45am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 8:11am: Australia is not in a trading bloc. It is a tiny country in global trade terms. The energy materials drilled and sold for export in Australia are not subject to remaining in the country. By the way neither major party in Australia has any plans to restrict its export either so that line of argument is just pissing in the wind. Fine, if you think that we can still tax the exports more and not tax local consumers, use the increased tax on exports to make up the difference. More than one way to skin a cat.

Again. Neither party have shown any indication they will do this.
The current system is fine.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Apr 1^st, 2014 at 8:55am:

Setanta wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 8:45am: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Apr 1st, 2014 at 8:11am: Australia is not in a trading bloc. It is a tiny country in global trade terms. The energy materials drilled and sold for export in Australia are not subject to remaining in the country. By the way neither major party in Australia has any plans to restrict its export either so that line of argument is just pissing in the wind. Fine, if you think that we can still tax the exports more and not tax local consumers, use the increased tax on exports to make up the difference. More than one way to skin a cat. Again. Neither party have shown any indication they will do this. The current system is fine for gas companies and China.

Not yet anyway. :(
Fixed the last bit for you Andrei. ;)

Grendel wrote on Mar 31^st, 2014 at 8:26pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 6:42pm: Bam wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 6:12pm: Grendel wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 5:01pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 10:23am: There's such a thing called global supply and demand. You want to go protectionist and put up a barrier of trade restricting it to domestic only?? Not sure I'd advise a little country to do that. Any sensible country would keep what they need and only export surplus.  ::) ::) ::) Australian resources for Australians first. Global market capitalism. You are either in or out. Now that was a silly thing to say...  we can be in with our surplus.

Precisely my point.  [smiley=thumbup.gif]


Quote:

As for Capitalism...  rampant capitalism is a big negative and hardly desirable.

Yes ... it's unbalanced. It's why poker tournaments always produce a winner. People with more money are more easily able to acquire even more money than those with none.