Aust not in midst of budget crisis: Labor

Date
    April 24, 2014
    The Age

Labor has dismissed Treasurer Joe Hockey's warnings about the spiralling costs of welfare, health and other government spending.      :-?

In a speech in Sydney on Wednesday night, Mr Hockey unveiled some details from the soon-to-be-released commission of audit, which shows government spending has almost tripled in the past 40 years.

Over the medium term, the commission expects the 15 largest and fastest growing programs to be welfare, health, education and defence - in most cases growing considerably faster than the economy.

Mr Hockey flagged cuts across the board in the May budget, adding that a greater reliance on means testing and co-payments could be on the way.

Opposition finance spokesman Tony Burke rubbished the treasurer's bleak portrait of the budget.

"Countries that have triple-A credit ratings are not in the midst of a budget crisis," Mr Burke told ABC Radio on Thursday.

"None of the information that Joe Hockey's referring to there is new. They're wanting to pretend that they've just realised this through the commission of audit."

In his speech, Mr Hockey made particular mention of the pension, following speculation the government would increase the retirement age to 70.   >:(        

The $40 billion spent annually on the aged pension was more than that given to defence, hospitals or schools, Mr Hockey said.

Mr Burke said the government was simply laying the groundwork for changes to the aged pension, breaking an election promise.      :(

The commission of audit is due to be released next week.

It report makes 86 recommendations, but Mr Hockey says he will not automatically accept all them.

"Some can be actioned in the short term, others require further consideration and some will be rejected outright," he said in his speech on Wednesday.

Shadow assistant treasurer Andrew Leigh accused Mr Hockey of playing political games with the budget, after blocking the previous Labor government's savings measures when in opposition.      :(

The treasurer should acknowledge the fiscal impact of coalition decisions to scrap measures such as the mining and carbon taxes, he said.

"What we've got now from Joe Hockey is really the shadow treasurer in drag," Dr Leigh told ABC Radio.

Hockeys a fool with a calculator .... he should never be allowed near the budget

Budget emergency my butt

scrap the $12 B on planes that don't fly ....    there's $12B
scrap the tax benefits to super ................    another $13B
scrap handouts to mining /energy sector ..... another $5B

thats $30 Billion saved just there ... I'm sure if I went through the budget they'd be a lot more

the government is being run by cretins who are only looking to line their own pockets or protect their own future interests

John Smith wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 8:20am:

Budget emergency my butt scrap the $12 B on planes that don't fly ....    there's $12B scrap the tax benefits to super ................    another $13B scrap handouts to mining /energy sector ..... another $5B thats $30 Billion saved just there ... I'm sure if I went through the budget they'd be a lot more the government is being run by cretins who are only looking to line their own pockets or protect their own future interests

Yes.

I'd also add:

a/ Scrap the ridiculous wealthfare-driven PPL scam.

b/ Scrap the stupid idea of repealing the carbon LEVY and the mining tax.

This useless excuse for a government has been lying constantly about the state of the budget/economy
since pre-Gillard days, it's incredible that the sheeple haven't seen through the lies yet.

These Lib 'destructos' should never have been given power, and have more than demonstrated why.

Wow, Labor and the rusted-on are desperate to hide just how badly they screwed up over the previous six years! ;D

John Smith wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 8:09am:

Hockeys a fool with a calculator .... he should never be allowed near the budget

I saw an interview with him last night and he seems to make all the right noises - but I still think he is an ideologue following the bleatings of his master The Mad Monk going, 'must balance the budget, must balance the budget, must balance the budget,...'

And that is what I think makes him dangerous. Basically every thing I read and hear tells me Australia is in a pretty good economic and social position, no drastic measures are required. There are some big issue on the horizon which need to be addressed but the mindless ideologue/slogan driven cutting the of the budget may not be the only or best way forward, neither economically or socially.

Hockey seems to have the right understanding but he seems to have come to the wrong conclusions. If this is just a smokescreen so that when the budget is announced everyone goes 'well that not so bad, what were we worried about' remains to be seen.

But I'm on edge and I have a knot in the stomach waiting  :-X.

Quote:

Opposition finance spokesman Tony Burke rubbished the treasurer's bleak portrait of the budget. "Countries that have triple-A credit ratings are not in the midst of a budget crisis," Mr Burke told ABC Radio on Thursday.

What an idiot Burke is.

This is one reason these stupid Labor R-soles should never be in Govt.

Risk ratings are about ability to service debts.  If you don't balance the books you are eventually going to be insolvent and the rating will sink.

The tripple A was won by the Howard Govt.  Labor did their level best to trash it.

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 8:32am:

Wow, Labor and the rusted-on are desperate to hide just how badly they screwed up over the previous six years! ;D

And not that the welded on ideologues from the conservative side would ever tell a fib or make an exaggeration to make out that the 'the sky is falling and it was all caused by those rotten spendthrifts socialists', would they?

Which is wrong with the public debate; everyone takes extreme adversary positions and try to score ego pleasing Brownie Points rather than look for the Truth  ::).

Swagman wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 8:49am:

Quote: Opposition finance spokesman Tony Burke rubbished the treasurer's bleak portrait of the budget. "Countries that have triple-A credit ratings are not in the midst of a budget crisis," Mr Burke told ABC Radio on Thursday. What an idiot Burke is. This is one reason these stupid Labor R-soles should never be in Govt. Risk ratings are about ability to service debts.  If you don't balance the books you are eventually going to be insolvent and the rating will sink. The tripple A was won by the Howard Govt.  Labor did their level best to trash it.

That is an out-and-out mistruth. It was directly a result of Labor's success in getting us through the GFC.

The only 'budget crisis' we have is that we have a blatantly out-of-his-depth incompetent in charge of it.

Burke is correct, you are not. And nor is Hockey.

John Smith wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 8:20am:

Budget emergency my butt scrap the $12 B on planes that don't fly ....    there's $12B scrap the tax benefits to super ................    another $13B scrap handouts to mining /energy sector ..... another $5B thats $30 Billion saved just there ... I'm sure if I went through the budget they'd be a lot more the government is being run by cretins who are only looking to line their own pockets or protect their own future interests

OR

you could cut the dole
get rid of single-parent welfare
get rid of income supplements


there is more than enough there to cover the deficit.

See, I can choose expenditures that don't affect me too!

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 8:32am:

Wow, Labor and the rusted-on are desperate to hide just how badly they screwed up over the previous six years! ;D

TONY JONES: One message you drummed home to Joe Hockey in that interview was, "You don't know how lucky you are," more or less, that the Australian Government is in a remarkably good economic position by comparison to other countries in the G20. Do you think he's actually making out the economy to be worse than it is?

ANDREW NEIL: I can't think of a Finance minister in the Western world that wouldn't give their left arm to be in the position of the Australian Government.

I mean, national debt of 23 per cent. You want to know how much it is in Italy? 132 per cent of GDP. Greece: 170 per cent. Even the United Kingdom: 80 per cent; using other criteria, as much as 100 per cent. A deficit of three per cent every year. Now these are figures you may want to deal with, but you're not dealing with a crisis compared to the situation in Europe or even the United States


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-23/australia-not-in-an-economic-crisis/5407924


*Andrew Neil is Chairman of the British publication - "The Spectator"

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/5407890-16x9-340x191.jpg

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 8:55am:

John Smith wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:20am: Budget emergency my butt scrap the $12 B on planes that don't fly ....    there's $12B scrap the tax benefits to super ................    another $13B scrap handouts to mining /energy sector ..... another $5B thats $30 Billion saved just there ... I'm sure if I went through the budget they'd be a lot more the government is being run by cretins who are only looking to line their own pockets or protect their own future interests OR you could cut the dole get rid of single-parent welfare get rid of income supplements there is more than enough there to cover the deficit. See, I can choose expenditures that don't affect me too!

Why does that not surprise me, coming from you?

You've always been pro-wealthfare and anti-welfare.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 8:55am:

you could cut the dole get rid of single-parent welfare get rid of income supplements

And have major social disruption and disorder that will have a negative effect on the country for 20 + years, and cause a recession. Excellent  ::).

And of course you will continue with corporate and middle and upper class welfare and subsidies for inefficient industries. Excellent  ::).

Kat wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 8:52am:

Swagman wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:49am: Quote: Opposition finance spokesman Tony Burke rubbished the treasurer's bleak portrait of the budget. "Countries that have triple-A credit ratings are not in the midst of a budget crisis," Mr Burke told ABC Radio on Thursday. What an idiot Burke is. This is one reason these stupid Labor R-soles should never be in Govt. Risk ratings are about ability to service debts.  If you don't balance the books you are eventually going to be insolvent and the rating will sink. The tripple A was won by the Howard Govt.  Labor did their level best to trash it. That is an out-and-out mistruth. Burke is correct, you are not.

Really El Katto. 

Feel free to elaborate on your Laborite propaganda... :-?

Abbott is running a fear campaign. It's what he's been taught and knows how to do well.

These new austerity measures are to prepare us for a serious drop in our wages and living standards pushed along by the signing of the recent FTA's and the proposed one with China.

Abbott thinks by stripping away the security of much of the population we'll accept lower wages and pensions and be grateful for whatever we can get. Not a bad idea in theory, but there's going to be a serious backlash.

Gillard shouldn't have given into the protests of the people when she tried to reduce services or cut back on the welfare which Howard had so generously introduced when he was pork-barreling for an election.

Abbott will get the support from the big inter/national corporations for these stringent new measures. If we complain - then they'll just import thousands more 457 visa workers. As these imports will no longer be regulated - we'll have to compete with them or become beggars.


Quote:

457 visa workers exploited at Rinehart's Roy Hill The Federal Government is being asked to investigate claims that 457 work visas are being abused at Gina Rinehart's $10 billion Roy Hill iron ore project in the Pilbara. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-04/cfmeu-alleges-457-visa-workers-exploited-by-roy-hill/5367816

We probably are in the midst of a budget crisis.

labor added some very very big costs to the treasury.

NDIS  $10 bill a year
Gonski $10 bill a year
NBN  $ 70 bill

Tone has been no better

Direct action  Billions
PPL  Billions
Jets   Billions.

Now all this would be ok if productivity was rising.
But its not.
Add 10 % growth in hospital costs p.a.
A slowing mining sector due to chinese stockpiling of resources
An ageing demographic who will have the voting power to assure grey taxes are a political no no.
A very big deficit due to rudd/Gillard and the interest bill on this.

There are virtually no positives.

What is important is to not put the burden on the productive elements of society
small business
farmers
miners.

This, of course, is exactly what will happen ;)

Actually we should be sharing the burden around equally, so that all parts contribute to the solution. At the moment, we do not do that.

Kat wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 9:00am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:55am: John Smith wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:20am: Budget emergency my butt scrap the $12 B on planes that don't fly ....    there's $12B scrap the tax benefits to super ................    another $13B scrap handouts to mining /energy sector ..... another $5B thats $30 Billion saved just there ... I'm sure if I went through the budget they'd be a lot more the government is being run by cretins who are only looking to line their own pockets or protect their own future interests OR you could cut the dole get rid of single-parent welfare get rid of income supplements there is more than enough there to cover the deficit. See, I can choose expenditures that don't affect me too! Why does that not surprise me, coming from you? You've always been pro-wealthfare and anti-welfare.

quite the contrary.  The problem is that you see everything thru the one biased eye in your head.  If someone supports a policy position you disagree with you then assume thy disagree with you on everything.  That is why you are so mocked on here. 

If you had half a brain you would have seen SATIRE in my response.

OldnCrusty wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 9:08am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:55am: you could cut the dole get rid of single-parent welfare get rid of income supplements And have major social disruption and disorder that will have a negative effect on the country for 20 + years, and cause a recession. Excellent  ::). And of course you will continue with corporate and middle and upper class welfare and subsidies for inefficient industries. Excellent  ::).

Try a full quote next time AND read the last line.  There might be a clue there to my meaning

mantra wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 9:20am:

Abbott is running a fear campaign. It's what he's been taught and knows how to do well. These new austerity measures are to prepare us for a serious drop in our wages and living standards pushed along by the signing of the recent FTA's and the proposed one with China. Abbott thinks by stripping away the security of much of the population we'll accept lower wages and pensions and be grateful for whatever we can get. Not a bad idea in theory, but there's going to be a serious backlash. Gillard shouldn't have given into the protests of the people when she tried to reduce services or cut back on the welfare which Howard had so generously introduced when he was pork-barreling for an election. Abbott will get the support from the big inter/national corporations for these stringent new measures. If we complain - then they'll just import thousands more 457 visa workers. As these imports will no longer be regulated - we'll have to compete with them or become beggars. Quote: 457 visa workers exploited at Rinehart's Roy Hill The Federal Government is being asked to investigate claims that 457 work visas are being abused at Gina Rinehart's $10 billion Roy Hill iron ore project in the Pilbara. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-04/cfmeu-alleges-457-visa-workers-exploited-by-roy-hill/5367816

why must every one of your posts be little more than strident anti-abbott bashing and exaggeration dosed liberally with lies?

aquascoot wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 9:20am:

We probably are in the midst of a budget crisis. labor added some very very big costs to the treasury. NDIS  $10 bill a year Gonski $10 bill a year NBN  $ 70 bill Tone has been no better Direct action  Billions PPL  Billions Jets   Billions. Now all this would be ok if productivity was rising. But its not. Add 10 % growth in hospital costs p.a. A slowing mining sector due to chinese stockpiling of resources An ageing demographic who will have the voting power to assure grey taxes are a political no no. A very big deficit due to rudd/Gillard and the interest bill on this. There are virtually no positives. What is important is to not put the burden on the productive elements of society small business farmers miners. This, of course, is exactly what will happen ;)

to be fair, DA hasn't passed and probably wont. PPL hasn't passed and in its current form wont. and the jets have been planned for a decade.

Swagman wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 9:17am:

Kat wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:52am: Swagman wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:49am: Quote: Opposition finance spokesman Tony Burke rubbished the treasurer's bleak portrait of the budget. "Countries that have triple-A credit ratings are not in the midst of a budget crisis," Mr Burke told ABC Radio on Thursday. What an idiot Burke is. This is one reason these stupid Labor R-soles should never be in Govt. Risk ratings are about ability to service debts.  If you don't balance the books you are eventually going to be insolvent and the rating will sink. The tripple A was won by the Howard Govt.  Labor did their level best to trash it. That is an out-and-out mistruth. Burke is correct, you are not. Really El Katto.  Feel free to elaborate on your Laborite propaganda... :-?

Fitch upgrades Australia's credit rating

Tue 29 Nov 2011, 3:17pm AEDT


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BGeNUmoCQAAGGVT.jpg



Ratings agency Fitch has awarded Australia its top sovereign credit rating, the first time Australia has been AAA rated by all three agencies.

The US agency upgraded Australia's key credit rating to AAA from AA+, making Australia one of just 15 countries to hold the top rating.

The long-term foreign-currency issuer default rating shows Australia's ability to repay foreign debt and is used to compare between different countries.

Fitch also says its outlook for Australia was "stable".

Standard and Poor's gave Australia its top rating in 2003, while Moody's was the first to upgrade its rating, in 2002.

The Fitch upgrade reflects Australia's fundamental credit strengths including its "high value-added economy" and "flexible policy framework", said Fitch Asia Sovereign ratings group director Art Woo.

"The combination of low public debt, a freely floating exchange rate, a credible inflation target framework, and liberal trade and labour markets provides Australian authorities the flexibility to run strong counter-cyclical fiscal and monetary policies during both economic downturns and upturns," Mr Woo said.

Fitch says achieving a budget surplus and improving net financial worth would bolster the outlook for Australia's credit rating.

HSBC chief economist for Australia and New Zealand Paul Bloxham says the rating is a reminder that Australia's sovereign finances are in a strong position, "particularly against the backdrop of the current global sovereign problems".

"Sound fiscal policy and low government debt will help to affirm Australia's ability to service its net foreign borrowing requirement in part via a strong sovereign rating," Mr Bloxham said.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-29/fitch-rating-australia/3701752

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 9:29am:

Actually we should be sharing the burden around equally, so that all parts contribute to the solution. At the moment, we do not do that.

It will never be equal. Wealthy people with businesses generate wealth and can afford to employ people so they're entitled to more benefits.

We are just the serfs and of no more value than an imported worker, in fact we're of less value if we don't work. What we have now will need to be shared with a lot more people shortly. Abbott is spending like a drunken sailor and taking a huge gamble and we have to pay for it.

The Abbott government has doubled our debt already so we should be fearful.

Get your hand off it.... :-?

You don't pull a Tripple A rating out of your bum in 5 minutes.  It takes years of historical performances and historical analysis.

The rating was won by having a robust economy with declining unemployment, low inflation, low Govt debt and a very strong financial sector.  :-?

All these things were established by the Howard Govt and not at all by Rudd or Gillard.

It took 10 years to pay off Keating's debt and 5 minutes for Labor to run it back up again and tripple it.

Costello established APRA.  Probably the single most significant economic reform that protected Australia from the worst of the GFC.

Burke is an absolute idiot for trying to steal Costello's thunder.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 9:47am:

aquascoot wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 9:20am: We probably are in the midst of a budget crisis. labor added some very very big costs to the treasury. NDIS  $10 bill a year Gonski $10 bill a year NBN  $ 70 bill Tone has been no better Direct action  Billions PPL  Billions Jets   Billions. Now all this would be ok if productivity was rising. But its not. Add 10 % growth in hospital costs p.a. A slowing mining sector due to chinese stockpiling of resources An ageing demographic who will have the voting power to assure grey taxes are a political no no. A very big deficit due to rudd/Gillard and the interest bill on this. There are virtually no positives. What is important is to not put the burden on the productive elements of society small business farmers miners. This, of course, is exactly what will happen ;) to be fair, DA hasn't passed and probably wont. PPL hasn't passed and in its current form wont. and the jets have been planned for a decade.

Well that's pretty right.
I hope DA gets through some action on the environment is necessary.
A tax won't stop the global warming boogie man.
The PPL is funded by a levy on big business, offset by a cut in company tax.
The jets have already been allocated funds by the last government, we are, as a country, part of the JSF project.

mantra wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 9:55am:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 9:29am: Actually we should be sharing the burden around equally, so that all parts contribute to the solution. At the moment, we do not do that. It will never be equal. Wealthy people with businesses generate wealth and can afford to employ people so they're entitled to more benefits. We are just the serfs and of no more value than an imported worker, in fact we're of less value if we don't work. What we have now will need to be shared with a lot more people shortly. Abbott is spending like a drunken sailor and taking a huge gamble and we have to pay for it. The Abbott government has doubled our debt already so we should be fearful.

it is that kind of stupidity and blatant lies that make you look so stupid.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 9:47am:

aquascoot wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 9:20am: We probably are in the midst of a budget crisis. labor added some very very big costs to the treasury. NDIS  $10 bill a year Gonski $10 bill a year NBN  $ 70 bill Tone has been no better Direct action  Billions PPL  Billions Jets   Billions. Now all this would be ok if productivity was rising. But its not. Add 10 % growth in hospital costs p.a. A slowing mining sector due to chinese stockpiling of resources An ageing demographic who will have the voting power to assure grey taxes are a political no no. A very big deficit due to rudd/Gillard and the interest bill on this. There are virtually no positives. What is important is to not put the burden on the productive elements of society small business farmers miners. This, of course, is exactly what will happen ;) to be fair, DA hasn't passed and probably wont. PPL hasn't passed and in its current form wont. and the jets have been planned for a decade.

Gillard/rudd/swan spent what they didn't have.
I totally support abbotts commission of audit and I hope he shares the pain around.
Society need to "man up" and that includes pensioners,workers and the rich.
But , it is a backward step to not recognise that the ONLY POSSIBLE long term solution is more autonomy for the wealth creators, less regulation and enabling the wealth creators to "grow the pie"

Its why I have a zero tolerance attitude to jealous green eyed lefties who just scream "tax the rich"
They simply have not recognised how an economy works.
The greens are the worst, by far, at this game. maybe they are more green with jealousy then green with environmentalism

whats wrong with you people. How on earth can the Liberals buy votes by increasing middle class welfare before the next election without cutting costs now? Where will the money come from?

Quote:

Shadow assistant treasurer Andrew Leigh accused Mr Hockey of playing political games with the budget, after blocking the previous Labor government's savings measures when in opposition. The treasurer should acknowledge the fiscal impact of coalition decisions to scrap measures such as the mining and carbon taxes, he said. "What we've got now from Joe Hockey is really the shadow treasurer in drag," Dr Leigh told ABC Radio.

VERY smart fella



Quote:

Leigh's early years of education were in Sydney, Melbourne, Malaysia and Indonesia, before receiving secondary education at James Ruse Agricultural High School in Sydney, New South Wales. Leigh holds a BA(Hons) and LLB(Hons) from the University of Sydney, and an MPA and PhD from the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University. He has published over 50 journal articles in the disciplines of economics, public policy and law, and over 100 opinion pieces. His research findings have been discussed in The Australian, The Australian Financial Review, Christian Science Monitor, The Economist, New York Times, The Sydney Morning Herald, Time, Wall Street Journal and Washington Post. Prior to entering politics, Leigh was a professor in the Research School of Economics at the Australian National University. His research was in the fields of labour economics, public finance, and political economy. He has also previously worked as a lawyer for Minter Ellison (Sydney) and Clifford Chance (London), and as Associate to Justice Michael Kirby of the High Court of Australia. He has also worked as a researcher for UK Solicitor General Ross Cranston, as senior trade adviser to the late Senator Peter Cook, and as a research fellow with the Progressive Policy Institute (Washington, D.C.)

I'd expect him to be the Federal Treasurer, at some point

buzzanddidj wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 10:32am:

Quote: Shadow assistant treasurer Andrew Leigh accused Mr Hockey of playing political games with the budget, after blocking the previous Labor government's savings measures when in opposition. The treasurer should acknowledge the fiscal impact of coalition decisions to scrap measures such as the mining and carbon taxes, he said. "What we've got now from Joe Hockey is really the shadow treasurer in drag," Dr Leigh told ABC Radio. VERY smart fella [quote]Leigh's early years of education were in Sydney, Melbourne, Malaysia and Indonesia, before receiving secondary education at James Ruse Agricultural High School in Sydney, New South Wales. Leigh holds a BA(Hons) and LLB(Hons) from the University of Sydney, and an MPA and PhD from the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University. He has published over 50 journal articles in the disciplines of economics, public policy and law, and over 100 opinion pieces. His research findings have been discussed in The Australian, The Australian Financial Review, Christian Science Monitor, The Economist, New York Times, The Sydney Morning Herald, Time, Wall Street Journal and Washington Post. Prior to entering politics, Leigh was a professor in the Research School of Economics at the Australian National University. His research was in the fields of labour economics, public finance, and political economy. He has also previously worked as a lawyer for Minter Ellison (Sydney) and Clifford Chance (London), and as Associate to Justice Michael Kirby of the High Court of Australia. He has also worked as a researcher for UK Solicitor General Ross Cranston, as senior trade adviser to the late Senator Peter Cook, and as a research fellow with the Progressive Policy Institute (Washington, D.C.)

I'd expect him to be the Federal Treasurer, at some point


[/quote]


Yes, well, he seems to have spent a lot of time attending lectures (given by economists who hang out in universities because they couldn't cut it in the "real" economy.)
I'd be more impressed if he had run a business or two successfully

aquascoot wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 10:54am:

buzzanddidj wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 10:32am: Quote: Shadow assistant treasurer Andrew Leigh accused Mr Hockey of playing political games with the budget, after blocking the previous Labor government's savings measures when in opposition. The treasurer should acknowledge the fiscal impact of coalition decisions to scrap measures such as the mining and carbon taxes, he said. "What we've got now from Joe Hockey is really the shadow treasurer in drag," Dr Leigh told ABC Radio. VERY smart fella [quote]Leigh's early years of education were in Sydney, Melbourne, Malaysia and Indonesia, before receiving secondary education at James Ruse Agricultural High School in Sydney, New South Wales. Leigh holds a BA(Hons) and LLB(Hons) from the University of Sydney, and an MPA and PhD from the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University. He has published over 50 journal articles in the disciplines of economics, public policy and law, and over 100 opinion pieces. His research findings have been discussed in The Australian, The Australian Financial Review, Christian Science Monitor, The Economist, New York Times, The Sydney Morning Herald, Time, Wall Street Journal and Washington Post. Prior to entering politics, Leigh was a professor in the Research School of Economics at the Australian National University. His research was in the fields of labour economics, public finance, and political economy. He has also previously worked as a lawyer for Minter Ellison (Sydney) and Clifford Chance (London), and as Associate to Justice Michael Kirby of the High Court of Australia. He has also worked as a researcher for UK Solicitor General Ross Cranston, as senior trade adviser to the late Senator Peter Cook, and as a research fellow with the Progressive Policy Institute (Washington, D.C.) I'd expect him to be the Federal Treasurer, at some point

Yes, well, he seems to have spent a lot of time attending lectures (given by economists who hang out in universities because they couldn't cut it in the "real" economy.)
I'd be more impressed if he had run a business or two successfully[/quote]

exactly. and to be treasurer this bozo will have to change parties because the ALP is doomed to opposition for a long time.

wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 8:07am:

Aust not in midst of budget crisis: Labor Date     April 24, 2014     The Age Labor has dismissed Treasurer Joe Hockey's warnings about the spiralling costs of welfare, health and other government spending.      :-? In a speech in Sydney on Wednesday night, Mr Hockey unveiled some details from the soon-to-be-released commission of audit, which shows government spending has almost tripled in the past 40 years. Over the medium term, the commission expects the 15 largest and fastest growing programs to be welfare, health, education and defence - in most cases growing considerably faster than the economy. Mr Hockey flagged cuts across the board in the May budget, adding that a greater reliance on means testing and co-payments could be on the way. Opposition finance spokesman Tony Burke rubbished the treasurer's bleak portrait of the budget. "Countries that have triple-A credit ratings are not in the midst of a budget crisis," Mr Burke told ABC Radio on Thursday. "None of the information that Joe Hockey's referring to there is new. They're wanting to pretend that they've just realised this through the commission of audit." In his speech, Mr Hockey made particular mention of the pension, following speculation the government would increase the retirement age to 70.   >:(         The $40 billion spent annually on the aged pension was more than that given to defence, hospitals or schools, Mr Hockey said. Mr Burke said the government was simply laying the groundwork for changes to the aged pension, breaking an election promise.      :( The commission of audit is due to be released next week. It report makes 86 recommendations, but Mr Hockey says he will not automatically accept all them. "Some can be actioned in the short term, others require further consideration and some will be rejected outright," he said in his speech on Wednesday. Shadow assistant treasurer Andrew Leigh accused Mr Hockey of playing political games with the budget, after blocking the previous Labor government's savings measures when in opposition.      :( The treasurer should acknowledge the fiscal impact of coalition decisions to scrap measures such as the mining and carbon taxes, he said. "What we've got now from Joe Hockey is really the shadow treasurer in drag," Dr Leigh told ABC Radio.

Labor are "somewhat" disingenuous, to say the least!
But then, so are the Liberals!

The fact is that BOTH LABOR & LIBERALS HAVE KNOWN OR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN, THAT A CRISIS WOULD OCCUR, THEY KNEW ROUGHLY WHEN IT WOULD START & NEITHER TOOK THE APPROPRIATE MEASURES, WHICH SHOULD HAVE BEEN TAKEN & THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR SOME 40-50 YEARS!

There are a few major reason/s behind what are happening, But the Demographic & related issues are certainly the easiest to track & much of what is now raised, as if it has "suddenly" become known, should have been readily apparent for decades AND NONE OF THE MAJOR POLITICAL PARTY'S TOOK THE APPROPRIATE ACTIONS OR SUFFICIENT APPROPRIATE ACTIONS, TO SET ASIDE A SUFFICIENT POOL OF ADDITIONAL ASSETS, FOR WHAT WAS OBVIOUSLY GOING TO BE A VERY LONG & RAINY PERIOD, BETWEEN AROUND 2005-2040!

Even now, when it is apparent that Demographic issues are heavily influencing many issues, the major party's are not coming clean, with the full ramifications.

In short, given that neither Labor, nor Liberals have adequately prepared for what should have been apparent, we now are faced with multiple dilemma's & no easy fixes!

That said, I have frequently said that both EXPENDITURE & REVENUE MUST BE ADDRESSED & THAT ALL SECTIONS OF THE COMMUNITY MUST TAKE A HIT.

However, IF REVENUE, THE HIGHER INCOME, BIG BUSINESS, GLOBAL BUSINESS & CHURCH BUSINESS SECTORS DO NOT TAKE THEIR FAIR SHARE, THEN IT WILL SIMPLY BE A MATTER OF DELAYING THE INEVITABLE & NOT FOR LONG.

These Demographic issues, in addition to the direct Aged Pension costs, are also pushing Health Costs & other related issues and that will also continue for quite some time. 

All of this will be extremely difficult to sort out, if not impossible, this late into proceedings, even if Demographics were the only issue involved, But it is not.

There are also at least 2 other major influences pushing events & they are -
1) Energy Supply & Costs.
2) Climate Change

Cheers & Good Luck, But take note we now need a lot of honesty from all & a fair hair cut by all, WE DO NOT NEED A LARGE DOSE OF HOPIUM, BECAUSE WE CAN NOT JUST WISH THIS AWAY!   

perceptions_now wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 11:53am:

NONE OF THE MAJOR POLITICAL PARTY'S TOOK THE APPROPRIATE ACTIONS OR SUFFICIENT APPROPRIATE ACTIONS, TO SET ASIDE A SUFFICIENT POOL OF ADDITIONAL ASSETS, FOR WHAT WAS OBVIOUSLY GOING TO BE A VERY LONG & RAINY PERIOD, BETWEEN AROUND 2005-2040!

That's because actually advocating something different goes against the rhetoric fed to the majority of fairness and equality, it would be political suicide. All this shows is that they don't have the balls to lead the country. This is the problem with big government, it will never accept a downsize.


Quote:

Even now, when it is apparent that Demographic issues are heavily influencing many issues, the major party's are not coming clean, with the full ramifications. In short, given that neither Labor, nor Liberals have adequately prepared for what should have been apparent, we now are faced with multiple dilemma's & no easy fixes!

Exactly, either they bite the bullet and make some hard choices people will hate or they continue to spit rhetoric into the eyes of the people in the hopes they keep eating it up. I really think they're playing hot potato with a bomb, hoping to get the most advantage they can and pass the bomb off to the other party before it explodes and they're blamed for it.


Quote:

That said, I have frequently said that both EXPENDITURE & REVENUE MUST BE ADDRESSED & THAT ALL SECTIONS OF THE COMMUNITY MUST TAKE A HIT. However, IF REVENUE, THE HIGHER INCOME, BIG BUSINESS, GLOBAL BUSINESS & CHURCH BUSINESS SECTORS DO NOT TAKE THEIR FAIR SHARE, THEN IT WILL SIMPLY BE A MATTER OF DELAYING THE INEVITABLE & NOT FOR LONG.

Sadly we can't tax our way to prosperity, if you "tax the rich" it doesn't tax the rich it either hurts that business which hurts us all or it's passed on to employees/consumers or in the worst case they take their investments elsewhere.



Quote:

These Demographic issues, in addition to the direct Aged Pension costs, are also pushing Health Costs & other related issues and that will also continue for quite some time.  All of this will be extremely difficult to sort out, if not impossible, this late into proceedings, even if Demographics were the only issue involved, But it is not. There are also at least 2 other major influences pushing events & they are - 1) Energy Supply & Costs. 2) Climate Change Cheers & Good Luck, But take note we now need a lot of honesty from all & a fair hair cut by all, WE DO NOT NEED A LARGE DOSE OF HOPIUM, BECAUSE WE CAN NOT JUST WISH THIS AWAY!    [/b]

Here here!
Don't forget the housing and debt bubbles though.

Isn't it interesting that theses intellectuals in power pay no price for being wrong, we do. Thomas Sowell was right.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 10:03am:

Quote: The Abbott government has doubled our debt already so we should be fearful. it is that kind of stupidity and blatant lies that make you look so stupid.

And it is this kind of response from you which makes you look like an ignoramus and a nasty one at that.

Do the math's on how much our debt is today compared to 6 months ago. Labor left a $268 billion debt - today it is $468 billion thanks to the $200 billion borrowed when Abbott came to power. He may not have spent all of it yet, but we are still paying interest. He's splashing it around as though there's no tomorrow.

mantra wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 1:38pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 10:03am: Quote: The Abbott government has doubled our debt already so we should be fearful. it is that kind of stupidity and blatant lies that make you look so stupid. And it is this kind of response from you which makes you look like an ignoramus and a nasty one at that. Do the math's on how much our debt is today compared to 6 months ago. Labor left a $268 billion debt - today it is $468 billion thanks to the $200 billion borrowed when Abbott came to power. He may not have spent all of it yet, but we are still paying interest. He's splashing it around as though there's no tomorrow.

I think I will still go with STUPID.  abbott didn't borrow $200B at all.  there is no no credit limit, that is all.  It is this level of lying or ignorance (not sure which) that so utterly discredits you as a poster. 

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 12:17pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 11:53am: NONE OF THE MAJOR POLITICAL PARTY'S TOOK THE APPROPRIATE ACTIONS OR SUFFICIENT APPROPRIATE ACTIONS, TO SET ASIDE A SUFFICIENT POOL OF ADDITIONAL ASSETS, FOR WHAT WAS OBVIOUSLY GOING TO BE A VERY LONG & RAINY PERIOD, BETWEEN AROUND 2005-2040! That's because actually advocating something different goes against the rhetoric fed to the majority of fairness and equality, it would be political suicide. All this shows is that they don't have the balls to lead the country. This is the problem with big government, it will never accept a downsize. Quote: Even now, when it is apparent that Demographic issues are heavily influencing many issues, the major party's are not coming clean, with the full ramifications. In short, given that neither Labor, nor Liberals have adequately prepared for what should have been apparent, we now are faced with multiple dilemma's & no easy fixes! Exactly, either they bite the bullet and make some hard choices people will hate or they continue to spit rhetoric into the eyes of the people in the hopes they keep eating it up. I really think they're playing hot potato with a bomb, hoping to get the most advantage they can and pass the bomb off to the other party before it explodes and they're blamed for it. [quote] That said, I have frequently said that both EXPENDITURE & REVENUE MUST BE ADDRESSED & THAT ALL SECTIONS OF THE COMMUNITY MUST TAKE A HIT. However, IF REVENUE, THE HIGHER INCOME, BIG BUSINESS, GLOBAL BUSINESS & CHURCH BUSINESS SECTORS DO NOT TAKE THEIR FAIR SHARE, THEN IT WILL SIMPLY BE A MATTER OF DELAYING THE INEVITABLE & NOT FOR LONG.

Sadly we can't tax our way to prosperity, if you "tax the rich" it doesn't tax the rich it either hurts that business which hurts us all or it's passed on to employees/consumers or in the worst case they take their investments elsewhere.



Quote:

These Demographic issues, in addition to the direct Aged Pension costs, are also pushing Health Costs & other related issues and that will also continue for quite some time.  All of this will be extremely difficult to sort out, if not impossible, this late into proceedings, even if Demographics were the only issue involved, But it is not. There are also at least 2 other major influences pushing events & they are - 1) Energy Supply & Costs. 2) Climate Change Cheers & Good Luck, But take note we now need a lot of honesty from all & a fair hair cut by all, WE DO NOT NEED A LARGE DOSE OF HOPIUM, BECAUSE WE CAN NOT JUST WISH THIS AWAY!    [/b]

Here here!
Don't forget the housing and debt bubbles though.

Isn't it interesting that theses intellectuals in power pay no price for being wrong, we do. Thomas Sowell was right.[/quote]

I am not referring to prosperity, But simply trying to ensure that everyone carries their fair share of the load, otherwise the system will crash earlier & more heavily.

Then no one will win, no one will be exempt & we will all be worse off!

perceptions_now wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 11:53am:

wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:07am: Aust not in midst of budget crisis: Labor Date     April 24, 2014     The Age Labor has dismissed Treasurer Joe Hockey's warnings about the spiralling costs of welfare, health and other government spending.      :-? In a speech in Sydney on Wednesday night, Mr Hockey unveiled some details from the soon-to-be-released commission of audit, which shows government spending has almost tripled in the past 40 years. Over the medium term, the commission expects the 15 largest and fastest growing programs to be welfare, health, education and defence - in most cases growing considerably faster than the economy. Mr Hockey flagged cuts across the board in the May budget, adding that a greater reliance on means testing and co-payments could be on the way. Opposition finance spokesman Tony Burke rubbished the treasurer's bleak portrait of the budget. "Countries that have triple-A credit ratings are not in the midst of a budget crisis," Mr Burke told ABC Radio on Thursday. "None of the information that Joe Hockey's referring to there is new. They're wanting to pretend that they've just realised this through the commission of audit." In his speech, Mr Hockey made particular mention of the pension, following speculation the government would increase the retirement age to 70.   >:(         The $40 billion spent annually on the aged pension was more than that given to defence, hospitals or schools, Mr Hockey said. Mr Burke said the government was simply laying the groundwork for changes to the aged pension, breaking an election promise.      :( The commission of audit is due to be released next week. It report makes 86 recommendations, but Mr Hockey says he will not automatically accept all them. "Some can be actioned in the short term, others require further consideration and some will be rejected outright," he said in his speech on Wednesday. Shadow assistant treasurer Andrew Leigh accused Mr Hockey of playing political games with the budget, after blocking the previous Labor government's savings measures when in opposition.      :( The treasurer should acknowledge the fiscal impact of coalition decisions to scrap measures such as the mining and carbon taxes, he said. "What we've got now from Joe Hockey is really the shadow treasurer in drag," Dr Leigh told ABC Radio. Labor are "somewhat" disingenuous, to say the least! But then, so are the Liberals! The fact is that BOTH LABOR & LIBERALS HAVE KNOWN OR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN, THAT A CRISIS WOULD OCCUR, THEY KNEW ROUGHLY WHEN IT WOULD START & NEITHER TOOK THE APPROPRIATE MEASURES, WHICH SHOULD HAVE BEEN TAKEN & THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR SOME 40-50 YEARS! There are a few major reason/s behind what are happening, But the Demographic & related issues are certainly the easiest to track & much of what is now raised, as if it has "suddenly" become known, should have been readily apparent for decades AND NONE OF THE MAJOR POLITICAL PARTY'S TOOK THE APPROPRIATE ACTIONS OR SUFFICIENT APPROPRIATE ACTIONS, TO SET ASIDE A SUFFICIENT POOL OF ADDITIONAL ASSETS, FOR WHAT WAS OBVIOUSLY GOING TO BE A VERY LONG & RAINY PERIOD, BETWEEN AROUND 2005-2040! Even now, when it is apparent that Demographic issues are heavily influencing many issues, the major party's are not coming clean, with the full ramifications. In short, given that neither Labor, nor Liberals have adequately prepared for what should have been apparent, we now are faced with multiple dilemma's & no easy fixes! That said, I have frequently said that both EXPENDITURE & REVENUE MUST BE ADDRESSED & THAT ALL SECTIONS OF THE COMMUNITY MUST TAKE A HIT. However, IF REVENUE, THE HIGHER INCOME, BIG BUSINESS, GLOBAL BUSINESS & CHURCH BUSINESS SECTORS DO NOT TAKE THEIR FAIR SHARE, THEN IT WILL SIMPLY BE A MATTER OF DELAYING THE INEVITABLE & NOT FOR LONG. These Demographic issues, in addition to the direct Aged Pension costs, are also pushing Health Costs & other related issues and that will also continue for quite some time.  All of this will be extremely difficult to sort out, if not impossible, this late into proceedings, even if Demographics were the only issue involved, But it is not. There are also at least 2 other major influences pushing events & they are - 1) Energy Supply & Costs. 2) Climate Change Cheers & Good Luck, But take note we now need a lot of honesty from all & a fair hair cut by all, WE DO NOT NEED A LARGE DOSE OF HOPIUM, BECAUSE WE CAN NOT JUST WISH THIS AWAY!

One of those additional Demographic issues, is the sliding Worker to Retiree ratio, which has been on the decline everywhere and in the USA it has gone from 7/1 in 1950, to around 4/1 now, on its way to around 3.5/1 in 2050.
http://www.econdataus.com/wpr_mdc.gif
What does this mean
Well, in 1950, there were a great deal more workers supporting Retirees, NOW that ratio has nearly halved & it will Decline considerably again before 2050 which means those still in the Workforce & those Businesses, will have to pay much more tax comparatively speaking, to support the Retirees now & in 2050, compared to 1950!

perceptions_now wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 4:01pm:

One of those additional Demographic issues, is the sliding Worker to Retiree ratio, which has been on the decline everywhere and in the USA it has gone from 7/1 in 1950, to around 4/1 now, on its way to around 3.5/1 in 2050

Thank you!
I've been looking for a graph to illustrate this point for some time.

Do you perhaps have a source lying around?

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 8:55am:

John Smith wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:20am: Budget emergency my butt scrap the $12 B on planes that don't fly ....    there's $12B scrap the tax benefits to super ................    another $13B scrap handouts to mining /energy sector ..... another $5B thats $30 Billion saved just there ... I'm sure if I went through the budget they'd be a lot more the government is being run by cretins who are only looking to line their own pockets or protect their own future interests OR you could cut the dole get rid of single-parent welfare get rid of income supplements there is more than enough there to cover the deficit. See, I can choose expenditures that don't affect me too!

It's not about choosing expenditure that doesn't affect me, its about choosing expenditure cuts that affects those that can afford it. To make life harder for people already struggling is in the long run counter productive.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 9:42am:

Kat wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 9:00am: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:55am: John Smith wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:20am: Budget emergency my butt scrap the $12 B on planes that don't fly ....    there's $12B scrap the tax benefits to super ................    another $13B scrap handouts to mining /energy sector ..... another $5B thats $30 Billion saved just there ... I'm sure if I went through the budget they'd be a lot more the government is being run by cretins who are only looking to line their own pockets or protect their own future interests OR you could cut the dole get rid of single-parent welfare get rid of income supplements there is more than enough there to cover the deficit. See, I can choose expenditures that don't affect me too! Why does that not surprise me, coming from you? You've always been pro-wealthfare and anti-welfare. quite the contrary.  The problem is that you see everything thru the one biased eye in your head.  If someone supports a policy position you disagree with you then assume thy disagree with you on everything.  That is why you are so mocked on here.  If you had half a brain you would have seen SATIRE in my response.

what does that say about you who is constantly mocked on here, by those on both sides of the political divide?

John Smith wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 4:41pm:

It's not about choosing expenditure that doesn't affect me, its about choosing expenditure cuts that affects those that can afford it. To make life harder for people already struggling is in the long run counter productive.

What is your opinion on the myriad of alternatives to this debate of cutting welfare VS taxing business?

For example:
Take the entire Welfare Budget $138.1 Billion, completely get rid of centre link and job service providers (lol), swap to a negative income tax that would see all of those without an income (Newstart/Disability/Aged Pension etc) all getting more say from 500/600/700 per fortnight to a straight 800 per fortnight each, they'd have their dignity back instead of being interrogated by two different groups every fortnight and they'd be given incentive to work. Then saving all of those Billions to reduce the deficit and provide tax cuts to all?

(ignoring for a moment those cut from public employment - their transition into the private sector would be a different topic)

Just out of curiosity.

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 4:47pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 4:41pm: It's not about choosing expenditure that doesn't affect me, its about choosing expenditure cuts that affects those that can afford it. To make life harder for people already struggling is in the long run counter productive. What is your opinion on the myriad of alternatives to this debate of cutting welfare VS taxing business? For example: Take the entire Welfare Budget $138.1 Billion, completely get rid of centre link and job service providers (lol), swap to a negative income tax that would see all of those without an income (Newstart/Disability/Aged Pension etc) all getting more say from 500/600/700 per fortnight to a straight 800 per fortnight each, they'd have their dignity back instead of being interrogated by two different groups every fortnight and they'd be given incentive to work. Then saving all of those Billions to reduce the deficit and provide tax cuts to all? (ignoring for a moment those cut from public employment - their transition into the private sector would be a different topic) Just out of curiosity.

I'm good with the general concept, it's what I've been calling-for for years.

Won't be long before we're both howled-down on this one. I always am, no
matter what I suggest.

OldnCrusty wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 8:44am:

And that is what I think makes him dangerous. Basically every thing I read and hear tells me Australia is in a pretty good economic and social position, no drastic measures are required. There are some big issue on the horizon which need to be addressed but the mindless ideologue/slogan driven cutting the of the budget may not be the only or best way forward, neither economically or socially.

They are peddling the lies as a vehicle for imposing their flawed ideology on an unwilling public.

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 4:47pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 4:41pm: It's not about choosing expenditure that doesn't affect me, its about choosing expenditure cuts that affects those that can afford it. To make life harder for people already struggling is in the long run counter productive. What is your opinion on the myriad of alternatives to this debate of cutting welfare VS taxing business? For example: Take the entire Welfare Budget $138.1 Billion, completely get rid of centre link and job service providers (lol), swap to a negative income tax that would see all of those without an income (Newstart/Disability/Aged Pension etc) all getting more say from 500/600/700 per fortnight to a straight 800 per fortnight each, they'd have their dignity back instead of being interrogated by two different groups every fortnight and they'd be given incentive to work. Then saving all of those Billions to reduce the deficit and provide tax cuts to all? (ignoring for a moment those cut from public employment - their transition into the private sector would be a different topic) Just out of curiosity.

i have no problem with making changes to how pensions or newstart work, that even means testing them ... but it cannot have a negative affect on those that cannot afford it.  We as a society can do better than that .. we are on of the richest countries in the world


I know a retired guy who on his investments earns $350 000 per year ...and thats without touching his principle ... but because it's all run through his super fund, its tax free ...  plus he gets an seniors card which he shoves in everyones face when he buys something (he must get his 10% discount) ...  he earns 5x the average wage and yet abbott wants to target pensioners and unemployed

John Smith wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 5:49pm:

i have no problem with making changes to how pensions or newstart work, that even means testing them ... but it cannot have a negative affect on those that cannot afford it.  We as a society can do better than that .. we are on of the richest countries in the world

Is that a yes or no to considering alternatives as drastic as a negative income tax combined with the abolition of Centrelink and Job Service Providers?

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 5:56pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 5:49pm: i have no problem with making changes to how pensions or newstart work, that even means testing them ... but it cannot have a negative affect on those that cannot afford it.  We as a society can do better than that .. we are on of the richest countries in the world Is that a yes or no to considering alternatives as drastic as a negative income tax combined with the abolition of Centrelink and Job Service Providers?

that would be a yes .... the devil is in the detail, but its certainly worth looking at.

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 4:47pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 4:41pm: It's not about choosing expenditure that doesn't affect me, its about choosing expenditure cuts that affects those that can afford it. To make life harder for people already struggling is in the long run counter productive. What is your opinion on the myriad of alternatives to this debate of cutting welfare VS taxing business? For example: Take the entire Welfare Budget $138.1 Billion, completely get rid of centre link and job service providers (lol), swap to a negative income tax that would see all of those without an income (Newstart/Disability/Aged Pension etc) all getting more say from 500/600/700 per fortnight to a straight 800 per fortnight each, they'd have their dignity back instead of being interrogated by two different groups every fortnight and they'd be given incentive to work. Then saving all of those Billions to reduce the deficit and provide tax cuts to all? (ignoring for a moment those cut from public employment - their transition into the private sector would be a different topic) Just out of curiosity.

.. and restore genuine equality of opportunity for all, develop genuine infrastructure that will offer near full employment, for example the GAIA concepts extended...and you can easily do away with all those things including your current massive welfare bills.

Continuing to frack gas and ores out of the ground and sending them off overseas so we can buy products back at valued added to the middle men is one of the world's greatest lies, and in reality benefits neither the Third World workforces and populations (they are actually disadvantaged in some ways) nor ours.

ONLY the middle men profit from such ventures,and before you start on 'Clivagina is a primary producer' - hshe is partly a primary producer and mostly an export hustler of raw materials as above.

It is in the export hustle that the dollars are made = middle men.

At some time this country has to wake up to what it is doing to itself and re-create itself as a thriving industrial nation.  All the raw materials are right there for the plucking - why are we catering to greedy self-centred fools intent on strutting the world stage like Colombian drug carteliers?

Then - and ONLY then - we can afford to pay our pensioners to live instead of survive.

Word for today:- 

Mopportunity (n) ... the chance to pick up a mop and put it to some good use...

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 9:42am:

Kat wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 9:00am: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:55am: John Smith wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:20am: Budget emergency my butt scrap the $12 B on planes that don't fly ....    there's $12B scrap the tax benefits to super ................    another $13B scrap handouts to mining /energy sector ..... another $5B thats $30 Billion saved just there ... I'm sure if I went through the budget they'd be a lot more the government is being run by cretins who are only looking to line their own pockets or protect their own future interests OR you could cut the dole get rid of single-parent welfare get rid of income supplements there is more than enough there to cover the deficit. See, I can choose expenditures that don't affect me too! Why does that not surprise me, coming from you? You've always been pro-wealthfare and anti-welfare. quite the contrary.  The problem is that you see everything thru the one biased eye in your head.  If someone supports a policy position you disagree with you then assume thy disagree with you on everything.  That is why you are so mocked on here.  If you had half a brain you would have seen SATIRE in my response.

Only by serial trolls and those like you who don't like my support for welfare recips, so think it
justifies attempting to denigrate and minimalise me as a person. As you are well known for doing
not just to me but to others who you disagree with.


I get on fine with most members, it's only the ratbags I have problems with. Or who have problems with me.

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 4:33pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 4:01pm: One of those additional Demographic issues, is the sliding Worker to Retiree ratio, which has been on the decline everywhere and in the USA it has gone from 7/1 in 1950, to around 4/1 now, on its way to around 3.5/1 in 2050 Thank you! I've been looking for a graph to illustrate this point for some time. Do you perhaps have a source lying around?

Go to -
http://www.econdataus.com/budget.html
Then hit the following -
World Data: 1950-2050

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 7:16pm:

.. and restore genuine equality of opportunity for all, develop genuine infrastructure that will offer near full employment, for example the GAIA concepts extended...and you can easily do away with all those things including your current massive welfare bills. ONLY the middle men profit from such ventures,and before you start on 'Clivagina is a primary producer' - hshe is partly a primary producer and mostly an export hustler of raw materials as above. It is in the export hustle that the dollars are made = middle men. At some time this country has to wake up to what it is doing to itself and re-create itself as a thriving industrial nation.  All the raw materials are right there for the plucking - why are we catering to greedy self-centred fools intent on strutting the world stage like Colombian drug carteliers? Then - and ONLY then - we can afford to pay our pensioners to live instead of survive. Word for today:-  Mopportunity (n) ... the chance to pick up a mop and put it to some good use...

Good Sir Grappler, could I first ask what the hell your post about exports and middle men had to do with welfare alternatives? Lol sorry I just couldn't put two and two together forgive my ignorance. GAIA? I get the Infrastructure part though.


Quote:

sending them off overseas so we can buy products back at valued added to the middle men is one of the world's greatest lies, and in reality benefits neither the Third World workforces and populations (they are actually disadvantaged in some ways) nor ours.

I've got a couple of queries about this part.
Are you suggesting that exporting goods to countries does not allow us to import goods that use those resources cheaper to the benefit of all? My good Sir Grappler, do you not know how many countries are involved in the production of a single pencil, that allows it to be cheaply made and with a high supply for all?

Also when talking about third world work forces if we look at both China and I think places in Africa, those that work in factories or sweat shops are infinitely better off then those that don't. For example there's a video explaining how a woman in a certain country can earn 3-7 times more at a sweatshop then in the other parts of that countries economy.

Furthermore the people in China are able to go from starving in Paddy fields, to working in factories that allows them to educate their children and lift their families out of poverty. It's only though this education paid for by these factory jobs that the lower class children can have a higher degree of social mobility. Free trade when done properly benefits all.