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Member Run Boards >> Islam >> About that "infidel tax" on halal products http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1399946272 Message started by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 13th, 2014 at 11:57am |
Title: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 13th, 2014 at 11:57am
As you may have noticed there has been a massive moral panic in the UK about the growth of halal certified products, which has permeated into Australia.
Central to this (orchestrated) panic is the idea that consumers are being slugged with a halal-certification tax - which, needless to say, is being used to fund terrorists and all the rest of it. Type in any search related to the key words "halal certified meat" and you will be inundated with thousands of islamophobic sites talking about consumers being forced to pay for the halal certification that has been issued to a range of food products available on the supermarket shelf. Peeling away the hysteria, its worthwhile understanding the actual facts of this issue: 1. Abbattoirs who are halal certified do get charged a fee to a recognised islamic body to have their facility halal certified. 2. The argument about consumers being charged a 'halal tax' is based on the completely baseless assumption that the meat processes pass on their halal-certification fees on to the consumer. Read any of the islamophobic sites that screech about this halal tax - or "infidel tax", and not one of them will give you any actual figures for what the consumer is charged for this tax on any given product. This is because the idea is an unfounded assumption based entirely on a flawed and over-simplified understanding of the market - and not on any actual hard facts. The islamophobes peddling this campaign could very easily prove their point by comparing a known halal-certified product with its non-halal certified equivalent product - and simply illustrating the price difference. But they don't - why is that? Now here's a thought... - The islamophobes won't demonstrate the halal tax in practice, because, quite simply, the meat processes do not pass on their halal certification costs to the consumer. - Maybe the business advantage of having a halal-certified product (ie increasing their customer base) overshadows, by a very large margin, the (relatively) small halal-certification fee. Finally, I'll inject some very simple common sense into this illogical and hysterical debate: looking at it from a purely business point of view, these meat processors are free to continue with their non-halal certified meat processing, yet choose to apply for halal certification with all the associated certification fees that comes with it. Why would they willingly (and discounting the hilariously baseless claim that these processors are forced or coerced by intimidating muslims to make themselves halal) make this decision? Why would any business make a business decision they know would adversely affect their bottom line? The only sensible and logical conclusion is that these processors want to jump on the halal bandwagon because they know it will be profitable for them. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by wally1 on May 13th, 2014 at 1:19pm
Your last point is spot on gandalf and i have actually said the same thing before months ago on this forum.
Butchers or abboitors dont care what muslims want or care about there needs, the profit they make is what is important to them. Dont think the issue of halal slaughter is not that big of a issue, alot of non-muslims do support the halal slaughter of animals, there is a funny clip by actor and comedian Russell brand for example supporting halal slaughter. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 13th, 2014 at 1:39pm
Indeed.
The islamophobes will have you believe there is a groundswell of resentment amongst the community who are demanding the choice to not pay this infidel tax. If that were true, then market forces would kick in - and you'd get a whole new range of products flooding the shelves proudly labelled "ingredients contain *NO* halal certified products". But that doesn't happen - why? Because most people simply don't give a rats arse about which way their beef was facing and what was chanted while it was being slaughtered, and the influx of halal products is certainly not hitting their hip pocket. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Karnal on May 13th, 2014 at 1:43pm
Excellent budget initiative, leftards. Peter the Great had a beard tax. Why not tax the 99% population of infidels to pay off Labor’s debt?
Thoughts? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by True Colours on May 13th, 2014 at 1:53pm Karnal wrote on May 13th, 2014 at 1:43pm:
How about renaming the carbon tax a 'petrol levy'? We could exempt special people from paying the tax - like mining billionaires. Are Australians Gina Rinehart's dhimmis? Perhaps Clive Palmer or Kerry Stokes has the answer? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Yadda on May 13th, 2014 at 2:50pm
I don't want to support people like Boko Haram, so i studiously avoid buying any product in my supermarket [or anywhere else] which has halal-certification.
[........except, of course, Cadbury's Dairy Block chocolate, and the cask of red wine!!] You do not believe, that halal-certification fees [in Western nations] go to aid groups like Boko Haram, and Al Qaeda ??? Then you are a disbeliever!!!!!! An infidel!!!!! :) And God curses you. Ask gandalf! |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by wally1 on May 13th, 2014 at 2:57pm Yadda wrote on May 13th, 2014 at 2:50pm:
Yes they fund alqaeda. Bin ladin comes to australia once a month and picks up the halal meat cheque. The then takes it to the stgeorge bank which is in the mountains and swaps the cheque for cash. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Yadda on May 13th, 2014 at 3:02pm wally1 wrote on May 13th, 2014 at 2:57pm:
I knew it!!!!!!!!!! [psssssst! ASIO, you reading this?] |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by True Colours on May 13th, 2014 at 3:52pm
Why should Australia get all that export money from the Middle East?
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Probably New Zealand is more deserving of this trade. Let the kiwis have it I suppose. Australia has enough money already. Anyway, it will be better if Muslims buy products only from Muslim suppliers - keep the money in the community. I demand that big corporations stop exploiting the Muslim community, and stop stripping money out of the community! |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Sparky on May 13th, 2014 at 3:55pm polite_gandalf wrote on May 13th, 2014 at 11:57am:
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Caliph adamant on May 13th, 2014 at 4:04pm polite_gandalf wrote on May 13th, 2014 at 11:57am:
I work for myself Gandalf and pass on all input costs as I refuse to work for free! Please give me a link to your assumption. How would you like to be forced to eat something you did not agree with, pork for instance? wally1 wrote on May 13th, 2014 at 1:19pm:
alot? Link please to this supporter base? An abattoir in central Qld balked at the cost of Halal certification and refused to pay the $27k per month just last year. http://www.news.com.au/national/aussie-firms-paying-inflated-price-to-have-halal-certification/story-fncynjr2-1226743120181 I have an idea to make it equal though. Muslims pay for all other Australians grog bills and we will call it evens. What say you Gandalf fair exchange is no robbery! Yadda wrote on May 13th, 2014 at 2:50pm:
COOOOON cheese, Vegemite.........ad nauseam http://www.halalchoices.com.au/ |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by True Colours on May 13th, 2014 at 4:12pm Sparky wrote on May 13th, 2014 at 3:55pm:
Let me know when mankind creates their own animal to eat - then we can stop showing gratitude to God for what we eat. (Of course, you would be eating with your God-given mouth, and your God-given digestive system, but why let that stop your ingratitude?) |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by True Colours on May 13th, 2014 at 4:15pm
Does anyone know what this symbol is and where money from this organisation gets spent?
I would hate to think that any money I spent would end up funding rabbis sucking baby penis in some weird circumcision ritual. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Sparky on May 13th, 2014 at 4:58pm True Colours wrote on May 13th, 2014 at 4:15pm:
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Sparky on May 13th, 2014 at 5:03pm True Colours wrote on May 13th, 2014 at 4:12pm:
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Caliph adamant on May 13th, 2014 at 7:34pm
No answer Gandalf, thought not.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 13th, 2014 at 7:48pm Quote:
Would you mind explaining how you dismiss basic economics as a "completely baseless assumption"? I notice Gandalf conveniently ignored the concerns that had actually been raised here on this forum, which he has no answer for. For example: * Halal certification requires religious discrimination in the workplace. * Halal certification is not entirely optional. It is mandatory for exporting to certain countries, such as Indonesia. * The Indonesian government exerts a lot of control on the halal certification process within Australia. The goal of this interference goes far beyond ensuring that religious standards are met. Rather, it creates regional monopolies that can extort exhoribitant prices to the extent that despite it being conpulsory for export to many countries, many abbatoirs simply cannot afford it. * There is little transparency in where the money goes. It would be naive to dismiss this. Muslims have claimed that the money goes to Australian Islamic schools, yet recently, case after case has demonstrated a disturbing tendency for these schools to misappropriate government funds, even where standards for accountability are much higher. If Muslim community leaders see it fit to siphon money away from educating their own children, it is naive to assume all this Halal money goes to entirely benign causes. Some previous threads where this has already been explained to Gandalf: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1378852212/31#31 http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1386760635/8#8 http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1376746834/248#248 http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1392774047/119#119 http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1393158659/19#19 Quote:
I have pointed out to Gandalf that you cannot look at it from a "purely business point of view" when foreign governments are creating regional monopolies in Australia with the intent of extorting money. When a government imposes the charge, it genuinely is a tax, and it genuinely is passed onto consumers. Quote:
This is the same concept of "Islamic freedom" promoted by Abu, where people are free to do what they want, so long as they accept the consequences, such as getting your head chopped off for saying the wrong thing. They are "free" to not get halal certification, with the consequence that the Indonesian government will ban their product. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Yadda on May 13th, 2014 at 7:51pm Sparky wrote on May 13th, 2014 at 5:03pm:
And you know this. 100% ? :) Sure. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 13th, 2014 at 8:11pm
FD, the topic is the alleged 'halal tax' on domestic consumers. Not meat exports to Indonesia, alleged school rorts or baseless claims about intimidation of meat processors by head-chopping extremists.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 13th, 2014 at 9:03pm
The cost is passed onto domestic and foreign consumers. In the name of Islam, the Indonesian government is establishing trade barriers and taxes that push up prices everywhere. I have asked you before to explain Islamic economics before. You have some very strange ideas about how the world works, but you don't even know where you get them from.
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What claims are you referring to? Quote:
Would it be reasonable to describe this as Taqiyya? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 13th, 2014 at 9:57pm freediver wrote on May 13th, 2014 at 9:03pm:
Sorry my bad - they must want to get halal certification because its unprofitable - right? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Karnal on May 13th, 2014 at 10:10pm Sparky wrote on May 13th, 2014 at 3:55pm:
Abracadabra. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Sparky on May 14th, 2014 at 4:34am Karnal wrote on May 13th, 2014 at 10:10pm:
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 14th, 2014 at 8:50am
All halal slaughter in Australia involves stunning Sparky. Sorry no wrestling here.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Sparky on May 14th, 2014 at 11:26am polite_gandalf wrote on May 14th, 2014 at 8:50am:
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Caliph adamant on May 14th, 2014 at 11:45am Sparky wrote on May 14th, 2014 at 11:26am:
Indonesia tenderises cattle first with a block of timber before they kill it "humanely". ;D No answers yet Gandalf? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 14th, 2014 at 12:01pm Sparky wrote on May 14th, 2014 at 11:26am:
What about them? I'm more concerned about what happens in my own backyard. But you're free to go to Indonesia and tell them how to run their own country if you really want to. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Caliph adamant on May 14th, 2014 at 7:45pm
It is about time you owned up to the crap in your opening retort.
Common bloody liar aren't you Gandalf. Or are you just a typical muslim? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 14th, 2014 at 8:09pm Quote:
They get it because the Indonesian government puts them out of business if they don't. That's pretty much the definition of a tax. Again, I think it's time for you to explain Islamic economics to us. It might shed some light on all this taqiyya you have been peddling. Quote:
You'd never do this would you Gandalf? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Karnal on May 14th, 2014 at 9:46pm
Ah, Islamic economics. As practiced by KFC, Herbie’s UK Subway franchises, and my local Thai resturant.
Cunning, no? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 14th, 2014 at 9:54pm
Apparently it is a complete economic system, like national socialism or capitalism. That's about all I have been able to find out so far, other than tidbits about infidel taxes.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Karnal on May 14th, 2014 at 10:00pm freediver wrote on May 14th, 2014 at 9:54pm:
You mean Colonel.Sanders? Good heavens, I never would have guessed. Reds under the beds, eh? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Caliph adamant on May 15th, 2014 at 8:51am
Here you go Gandalf lets bring in a bit of truth.
The global halal market is estimated to be worth more than USD2.3 trillion, expanding by 20% per year. These schemes are not limited to food alone, with products and services ranging from halal certified cosmetics to water, trucks, warehousing and sharia finance there is no limit to the schemes. Plans are in place to certify every step of the market from suppliers of animal feed, to food processing and eventually the transport to your supermarket and shopping bag. Companies who believe non-Muslims do not care then pass on the extra costs to consumers. Few products are labelled as certified halal. Most meat and dairy produce bought in supermarkets or when eating out are now halal certified, but not labelled. There is no other religious group imposing this on our supply chain. An article from 2008 gives an idea of how lucrative ‘halal’ certification is to Islamic groups –re The Australian Federation of Islamic Councils – (one of about 17 certifying groups often linked to mosques) (The) ‘AFIC is the biggest Islamic umbrella organisation in the country and is made up of dozens of representative Muslim bodies, which sit beneath the nine state and territory councils. It acts in an advisory role to governments and derives most of its income from rent on land that houses Muslim schools across the country, and the certification of halal food. It manages an annual budget of about $20 million and assets of about $50 million. (O'Brien, 2008 Australian) 1.Halal food is simply a religious food tax imposed by Muslims on non-Muslims. 2.Food prices are increased as manufacturers pass this TOTALLY UNNECESSARY set of extra costs onto unsuspecting consumers From various sources now prove me wrong Gandalf |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Caliph adamant on May 15th, 2014 at 9:08am wally1 wrote on May 13th, 2014 at 2:57pm:
Nearly correct better luck next time. Crescent Foods, a major U.S. halal foods manufacturer, has partnerships with two major Islamic groups that were named as co-conspirators during the terror finance trial against the Holy Land Foundation. Crescent Foods has sponsored an events conducted by the Council for American Islamic Relations (CAIR) and has “teamed up” with the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) to create a national halal certification board. ISNA itself describes Crescent Foods president Ahmad Adam, a Palestinian Arab American, as a “founding member” of ISNA. Court documents showed that CAIR and ISNA conspired with HLF in sending $12 million to Hamas in the early 2000s. The HLF was shut down and its former leaders are in prison. Federal prosecutors under attorney general Eric Holder have declined to prosecute CAIR and ISNA …IFANCA is working with the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) to create a national halal standards and accreditation body. In 2007 and 2008, ISNA, which was co-founded by Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) leader Sami al-Arian, was named by the United Sates Justice Department as a co-conspirator in the financing of millions of dollars to Hamas. Just this past September, the Canadian government stripped ISNA of its tax status in Canada for the financing of a Pakistani terrorist group. IFANCA is an active member of the Council of Islamic Organizations of Greater Chicago (CIOGC). Other members include: the Mosque Foundation (MF), which has held fundraisers for individuals and groups associated with PIJ and Hamas; Islamic Relief (IR), which has been associated with al-Qaeda financing and that was named by the Israeli government a front for Hamas; Helping Hand (HH), which partnered with a Pakistani charity at the same time that charity delivered close to $100,000 to the residence of the head of Hamas, Khaled Meshaal; and the Muslim American Society (MAS), which has used the internet to propagate materials degrading women, cursing Christians, and calling for the murder of Jews and homosexuals. You muslim boys should keep your heads down a little longer at prayers this Friday and beg forgiveness for telling porkies. https://moneyjihad.wordpress.com/tag/halal/ |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 15th, 2014 at 12:43pm Quote:
This is the group that was recently busted siphoning off millions of dollars in government funds that were supposed to go towards educating Muslim children. I am yet to figure out what these Muslims consider so much more important. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 15th, 2014 at 2:36pm Adamant wrote on May 14th, 2014 at 7:45pm:
See if you can manage two consecutive posts without resorting to personal abuse Adamant. :) As to this claim of mine you are having so much difficulty with, we can easily settle this once and for all if you simply demonstrate to me that halal certified products are more expensive than their non-halal equivalents. But you won't - just like all the other people who screech about this "halal tax" won't - because it doesn't happen. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 15th, 2014 at 3:08pm Adamant wrote on May 15th, 2014 at 8:51am:
Actually scratch my previous reply - no need to demonstrate an actual example of this, a hate site saying its so is more than adequate proof. Thanks Adamant, that sure showed me :) |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 15th, 2014 at 9:16pm
Obviously it is not going to be cheaper, because the consequences of not paying the tax is the loss of business. This makes the company less profitable, so they have to charge more for what they can still sell in order to stay in business. Either that or go bankrupt.
Furthermore, the tax and barriers to trade affect the entire industry. It is market forces that determine the price. No company is going to offer a discount if they can sell the same quantity of product for a higher price. Likewise, no company is going to pass on increased costs if their competitors do not and the outcome is that they sell nothing. Your demand that we trace specific prices back to the tax merely reflects your complete lack of understanding of basic economics. I can only assume that this rejection of reality comes with your unquestioning acceptance of alternative Islamic concepts of economics. Feel free to explain to us the reason why you sprout this nonsense. Do you still insist that the halal tax being imposed by the Indonesian government is not in fact a tax? Or do you concede that this claim of yours was just more Muslim taqiyya? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Karnal on May 15th, 2014 at 10:18pm
Amazing how FD throws every economic principle out the window when it comes to Islam.
Even Yoplait yoghurt is halal. I blame economics - I mean, Islam. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Andrei.Hicks on May 15th, 2014 at 10:21pm polite_gandalf wrote on May 14th, 2014 at 12:01pm:
Seems somebody should. You seen the utter mess they have made of it? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 15th, 2014 at 11:19pm freediver wrote on May 15th, 2014 at 9:16pm:
FD my demand is that claims such as this: Adamant wrote on May 15th, 2014 at 8:51am:
...should be substantiated. Thats what the OP was about - islamophobes screeching on and on about this extra cost that consumers have to pay, yet never being able to demonstrate that there is any extra cost to the consumer. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 15th, 2014 at 11:28pm Karnal wrote on May 15th, 2014 at 10:18pm:
In Australia KFC uses halal slaughtered chicken - then doesn't even sell a halal product FFS ::) |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 16th, 2014 at 8:23am polite_gandalf wrote on May 15th, 2014 at 11:19pm:
No Gandalf. The OP was about you trotting out more Muslim taqiyya. You tried to pretend that this tax is not in fact a tax, even though we have had the same discussion on several other threads already. You did not make this argument out of ignorance. Now you are demanding that we substantiate the forces of supply and demand. If you want to argue that companies do not pass on the costs they occur, you substantiate that. We are not going to try to prove the bleeding obvious to someone who rejects reality as their opening gambit. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 16th, 2014 at 12:37pm polite_gandalf wrote on May 13th, 2014 at 11:57am:
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 16th, 2014 at 12:53pm freediver wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 8:23am:
Sure - a halal certified breast of chicken in woolworths is no more expensive than the equivalent non-halal certified breast of chicken. Its pretty basic stuff FD - if a non-muslim consumer saw two equivalent products side by side and one was more expensive than the other, then the expensive product will go out of business. And yes, non-halal and halal chicken is served side by side at the supermarkets. KFC are supplied with halal certified chickens, but do not sell a halal product (because of the added seasoning). Why would they do this? The "tax" is worn by the meat processor, because the profitability of having a halal product far outweighs the small halal certification fee. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 16th, 2014 at 1:44pm
Gandalf, if one abattoir pays tens of thousands of dollars each month for certification, and the other chooses not to, but gets business taken away from them by the Indonesian government, then both incur significant costs, and both pass these onto consumers. Both the halal and non-halal chicken will go up in price because of the tax. Even without a direct cost, prices will go up due to market forces, as I just finished explaining to you. Have you heard of market forces before? Supply and demand?
Furthermore, imposing extortion taxes to the point where companies choose to opt out of the market is basically robbing the industry of nearly all the profit. Reduced overall profits reduces the incentives for new players to enter the market and for existing players to expand. It undermines the economic forces that keep prices low in the long term. Your simplistic questions and arguments merely reveal your complete ignorance of basic economics. Does Islam compel you to be so ignorant? Are you arguing from some idiotic Islamic school of economics, or just making this poo up as you go along? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Caliph adamant on May 16th, 2014 at 2:16pm
Gandalf, I have been in touch, on your behalf with two multinational food corporations. One has responded and stated that the transaction is private and confidential. So that means Yes I do have to pay a muslim Tax on my Food. I think you should apologise.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 16th, 2014 at 3:34pm
FD let me know when you want to talk about the topic of this thread and I'll happilly discuss it with you.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Caliph adamant on May 16th, 2014 at 3:37pm polite_gandalf wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 3:34pm:
No answer was the stern reply! |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Caliph adamant on May 16th, 2014 at 3:42pm polite_gandalf wrote on May 15th, 2014 at 11:19pm:
I did and you totally ignored it! |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 16th, 2014 at 5:50pm polite_gandalf wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 3:34pm:
You are full of crap Gandalf. In your opening post you tried to pretend that this tax is not a tax and will not affect prices. It is a tax and it will affect prices, and you have to reject mainstream economics in its entirety to claim otherwise. It is an extortionist tax designed to appropriate as much of the profit as they can get away with, to the point of excluding Australian businesses from the industry. We explain this to you in every single thread, then you pretend it does not exist and start a new thread peddling the same misleading taqiyya. And you expect us to trust the Muslim community not to siphon the money off towards terrorism or some other nefarious end. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 16th, 2014 at 6:44pm
1. this is not about the Indonesian attempt to extort beef exporters - this is a thread about domestic consumers
2. My OP was in direct response to baseless claims about halal certification costs being passed on to the domestic consumer at (say) supermarkets in Australia, or even the UK - look at adamant's (unsourced) quote if you need an example 3. Domestic consumers do not pay a "tax" (as in an impost) on their meat if it is halal - the claim is both illogical and baseless. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 16th, 2014 at 6:47pm Quote:
That's what the "infidel" tax is Gandalf. You can't start a thread about the infidel tax, insist it is not a tax, then insist we cannot even talk about the tax because that is not the subject of the thread. Quote:
All consumers are affected by barriers to trade, extortionist taxes etc. Quote:
If you had any understanding of basic economics you would not have posted that crap. I have tried explaining it to you several times already, in several different ways. I don't know how to dumb it down any further. Quote:
The abbatoirs pay the tax. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Karnal on May 16th, 2014 at 6:56pm freediver wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 5:50pm:
Have you actually checked the cost in Australia for halal certification? It’s bugger all. It costs food producers $155 for an initial site visit, and $55 for annual follow-up visits. If Australian food companies such as meat and poultry producers export their products to the region, such large scale food production should actually lower prices in Australia. I’m a vegetarian. Most of what I eat is Halal anyway. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 16th, 2014 at 7:00pm Quote:
Have you? Quote:
freediver wrote on Oct 24th, 2013 at 9:15pm:
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It's not about halal. It's about a $27000 halal sticker that the Indonesian government imposes on Australian businesses. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Karnal on May 16th, 2014 at 7:05pm
Oh, yes. It’s quite easy to do.
Why don’t you give it a try, FD? That way you can have some idea what you’re talking about. Just a tip. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 16th, 2014 at 7:07pm freediver wrote on Oct 24th, 2013 at 9:15pm:
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 16th, 2014 at 7:24pm freediver wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 6:47pm:
Bingo! I think you're starting to get it! Next step is to try and understand the abbattoirs are paying for a service - the service of having their meat halal certified, and opening themselves up to a much wider market. And as a consequence they are a) not inclined to pass the small certification cost to the consumer given that their new profit potential far outweighs the certification cost, and b) perfectly free to boycott the wannabe extortionists who foolishly want thousands of dollars for their halal certificates, when they can easily turn to the certifiers who charge just a couple of hundred. Its called the free market - I believe we have been through this before. And congratulations are in order - I think this was your first post in this thread without using the word taqqiya :) |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 16th, 2014 at 7:32pm Quote:
Crap. $27000 per month is not a service. It is a tax. An extortionist tax. Quote:
The tax is designed to suck up as much of the profit in the market as possible. The people recieving the money are not opening up anything. The markets are already there and want to buy the product. All they do is tick a box to say the tax has been paid. Quote:
$27000 per month is not a small administrative cost. Quote:
More crap. Businesses have chosen to withdraw from the market because of the extortionist cost of the tax. Quote:
Not if they want to be able to continue doing business. Quote:
I believe you still have no idea what you are talking about. freediver wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 7:07pm:
Does that sound like a free market to you? Quote:
My apologies. That is exactly what you are peddling here. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Caliph adamant on May 16th, 2014 at 7:33pm polite_gandalf wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 6:44pm:
Gandalf I asked Lion if Cooon Cheese passed on the cost of halal certification, they refused to answer. I have asked Kraft if they do the same. I did not ask How Much They Have To Pay. Coon cheese refused to answer said question, you should apologise for you told porkies. If I receive an answer from Kraft I will let you know and you will have to apologise again no doubt! |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 16th, 2014 at 7:49pm freediver wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 7:32pm:
Yep - text book free market, as I mentioned before. Supplier attempts to extort their customer, customer responds by boycotting and (presumably) turning to a cheaper supplier. Extortioner loses. I believe we've been through this before. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 16th, 2014 at 7:54pm
We have been through this. You ignored what was posted and went back to peddling lies.
Quote:
The supplier is the one being extorted. The Indonesian government is neither supplier nor customer. They are the ones imposing the extortionist tax. That is not textbook free market. That is the opposite. This has been pointed out to you over and over again. I do not know how to dumb it down any further, and can only assume you are deliberately misleading people in an attempt to defend the tax. Taqiyya. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 16th, 2014 at 7:58pm freediver wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 7:54pm:
The Indonesian government are supplying halal certificates through their Australian subsidiaries. The free market gives the customers the power to boycott the extortionists and either turn to a cheaper supplier or force their original supplier to supply at more reasonable prices - which seems to be exactly what happened. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 16th, 2014 at 8:02pm Quote:
So how do you explain this? freediver wrote on Oct 24th, 2013 at 9:15pm:
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 16th, 2014 at 8:17pm freediver wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 8:02pm:
Gee I don't know FD - I may be going out on a limb here, but it appears the suppliers boycotted their suppliers, which caused their trade to stop. Is this a trick question? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 16th, 2014 at 9:07pm
Why would an abattoir boycott their supplier and cause their trade to stop in a free market where, according to you, they could simply choose to go with an alternative cheaper supplier of halal stickers?
Why are you still peddling these absurd lies about it being a free market? The Indonesian government chooses who supplies the halal stickers. It chooses one supplier per state, creating an artificial monopoly, and encourages them to charge exorbitant prices. The price is nothing to do with the cost of administering the paperwork. It is a tax that they have to pay to merely access the market - a tax that soaks up most, and in some cases all of the profit. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Karnal on May 16th, 2014 at 9:55pm freediver wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 7:07pm:
The 2007 FD quoting unknown sources from the Courier Mail? Unthinkable. The 2014 FD? Par for the course. What happened, FD? All grown up now, eh? We’ll save you a nice spot next to Herbie and the old boy. Just stay away from the old boy’s cheese offerings. He steals it from a pan kept under Herbie’s bed. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 16th, 2014 at 10:00pm
Sorry, I keep forgetting that the Murdoch press has robbed us of the right to think for ourselves.
So where did you get that crap about a $55 annual fee from? Did you think it up yourself? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Karnal on May 16th, 2014 at 10:04pm freediver wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 10:00pm:
Think for ourselves? Oh, FD, you are a one. The crap came from the first site in a Google search on Australian Halal certification. Haven’t you looked? Don’t blame me. I did give you a tip, you know. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Karnal on May 16th, 2014 at 10:11pm polite_gandalf wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 8:17pm:
Never. FD’s the curious type, a free-thinker. He doesn’t believe in media monopolies, but he somehow - mysteriously - stumbles across all these Murdoch tabloid sources to back all up his Murdoch tabloid claims. Freedom of speech, innit. I blame Islam. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 17th, 2014 at 8:03am Karnal wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 10:04pm:
I can certify you for 50c if you'd like. That's not really what this is about though is it? You can get Halal stickers online for the cost of printing them. I doubt they could stop you putting them on your ham and cheese sandwiches. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Caliph adamant on May 17th, 2014 at 9:11am
Gandalf, Kraft foods have responded and again they refused to answer the question.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by moses on May 17th, 2014 at 3:19pm
halal certification is the mark of the beast on our goods as predicted in Rev 13:17
Revelations 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. So who is this beast? Well Rev 13:18 tells us who it is Revelations 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. This site explains it below for those who want to understand Below is a picture of a typewritten Interlinear Greek text of the 666 in Revelation 13:18. Reading from left to right, the first Greek letter, χ (pronounced “chi”) has a numerical value of 600. The middle Greek letter, ξ, is pronounced “xi”, and it has a numerical value of 60. The third Greek letter, ς, is pronounced “stigma”. Although its assigned numerical value has changed since the first century, back in the first century the stigma had a numerical value of 6. We might also note that the stigma has a literal meaning of “scar, mark, or badge of service”. When we put all of these letters together we get Χξς, which has a numerical value of 600 + 60 +6 = 666. The Islamic 666 hypothesis tells us that Yochanan was shown a vision of the Arabic as the ‘Bismallah’ (the “Name of Allah”), shown below. If we flip the Bismallah (the Name of Allah) around, we can see a striking similarity to the Codex Vaticanus, which is widely believed to be the oldest known Greek manuscript still extant, dated circa 350 CE. The line above the xi (under the words “A.D. 350”) is not an underline, but is actually part of the hand-written text. Crossed swords are commonly used in Islam to denote conquest. Therefore, if we add crossed swords to the left of the middle character (xi), and remember that the stigma on the right has the meaning of ‘scar, mark, or badge of service’ we get crossed swords, the Name of Allah (Bismallah), and the word ‘mark’ (Χξς). Going on the evil ways of muslims around the globe, I'll put my trust in the above statement that islam is the beast of Revelations. halal certification is the mark of the beast required to buy and sell |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Stratos on May 18th, 2014 at 9:32am
Not this crap again, please. Would you like a step by step rebuttal of the whole number of the beast thing or will you take 10 minutes to look up the info and see for yourself it is a complete fabrication?
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by moses on May 18th, 2014 at 9:59am
A step by step explanation / rebuttal of the ancient Greek text and the Arabic bismillah, yes I am interested.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Stratos on May 18th, 2014 at 10:49am moses wrote on May 17th, 2014 at 3:19pm:
If we are taking this as what John was shown, including words from a different language, why would he be shown it anything other than the correct way? moses wrote on May 17th, 2014 at 3:19pm:
This is very misleading. The Codex Vaticanus is a very old scripture of some of the books, but revelation is not one of them. It was added to the document over a millennium later. Quote:
moses wrote on May 17th, 2014 at 3:19pm:
A line in this context signifies a number, and due to the surrounding words saying it is a number, there is no reason to think that it is anything else. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by moses on May 18th, 2014 at 11:06am
stratos
I have looked on the net for the actual text and have discovered that it is as described I believe the message is correct. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Stratos on May 18th, 2014 at 11:35am
You realise that text is over a thousand years AFTER the vision was supposed to take place correct?
And that the line is not part of the text but signifies it as a number? And the the biblical text mentions specifically it is a number it is referring to? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Yadda on May 18th, 2014 at 12:25pm Stratos wrote on May 18th, 2014 at 11:35am:
Stratos, Bismillah is the number, or the 'mark', of a man. Bismillah is the number, or the 'mark', which identifies a man. Which man ? The man who pronounces Bismillah. Bismillah "In the name of Allah, most Gracious, most Compassionate". |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Stratos on May 18th, 2014 at 12:41pm Quote:
It's a number through any explanation that doesn't involve a tinfoil hat. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by moses on May 18th, 2014 at 1:19pm
That the credibility of the whole thing in a nutshell, an ancient greek looking at bismallah can make no sense of it, turned on it's side it becomes 666 in ancient greek text to him.
So I look at islam's track record of depravity and evilness it is an odds on certainty for the beast. I look at halal, it's fits the mark of the beast to buy and sell. I'm on the side of this message being truth. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Stratos on May 18th, 2014 at 1:23pm moses wrote on May 18th, 2014 at 1:19pm:
you aren't looking at the ancient Greek, you are looking at a 15th century manuscript moses wrote on May 18th, 2014 at 1:19pm:
Why, when the Bible very specifically points out three times in the verse that it is a number? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by moses on May 18th, 2014 at 2:08pm
Stratos wrote
Quote:
According to the internet I'm looking at a copy the ancient text. Quote:
Stratos wrote: Why, when the Bible very specifically points out three times in the verse that it is a number?[/quote] Not how I see it at all: Revelations 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. So to buy and sell you need the mark or the name or the number. A halal certificate issued in the name of the beast, becomes the mark of the beast to buy and sell. The beast certainly is not just a number. The number is the indication to recognize the beast. 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. bismallah to an ancient greek would be just gibberish, on it's side it's 666 in his text, the number of the beast |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Stratos on May 18th, 2014 at 2:15pm moses wrote on May 18th, 2014 at 2:08pm:
The story comes from the Codex Vaticanus, one of the oldest manuscripts of some of the Biblical books, however, the Revelation that appears in that book was added much later in the 15th century. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by mattywisk on May 18th, 2014 at 2:32pm
On the original topic.
- Maybe the business advantage of having a halal-certified product (ie increasing their customer base) overshadows, by a very large margin, the (relatively) small halal-certification fee. Finally, I'll inject some very simple common sense into this illogical and hysterical debate: looking at it from a purely business point of view, these meat processors are free to continue with their non-halal certified meat processing, yet choose to apply for halal certification with all the associated certification fees that comes with it. Why would they willingly (and discounting the hilariously baseless claim that these processors are forced or coerced by intimidating muslims to make themselves halal) make this decision? Why would any business make a business decision they know would adversely affect their bottom line? The only sensible and logical conclusion is that these processors want to jump on the halal bandwagon because they know it will be profitable for them. --------------- What is sad is the amount of gullible people out there that think being halal certified means anything different to the end product on the plate. More to the point is the flow of this tenney weeney portrayed Muslim Tax to be Halal certified. The money trail is well hidden when investigated. I have seen 2 investigations into where this money goes and mum's the word when they are asked if it goes to terrorist and other dubious organizations. Not only that they still won't fess up where it goes. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by moses on May 18th, 2014 at 2:56pm
Stratos wrote:
Quote:
I fail to see the relevance. Wasn't the original revelation given to John? The original scriptures had many different authors and languages. The Greek version put them all together in a single language. It is recognized as an authentic translation of the original languages and authors. As a footnote Stratos Christianity was born in Israel. By the end of the first century, it had spread throughout the Roman Empire and was armed with a new holy book: the New Testament. This collection of inspired Scriptures had been added to the Hebrew Scriptures, the Tenach, which Christians call the Old Testament. The new writings, composed primarily of the Gospels and the Epistles, were distributed widely in the Greek language. It seems fairly certain that the Gospels of Luke and John, the Book of Acts, the Epistles, and the Book of Revelation were originally written in Greek, Source Copying the original written in Greek, to the accepted Greek Version we are quoting would have been a breeze, the text is genuine |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Caliph adamant on May 18th, 2014 at 3:24pm
Has anyone noticed that Gandalf has Gone AWOL on this subject? Abu (Father) Rashid used to do it when he was found to be telling "porkies".
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by moses on May 18th, 2014 at 3:41pm
that's a beastly act on his part [smiley=cool.gif]
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Caliph adamant on May 19th, 2014 at 9:54am
Gandalf do you think these swarthy looking purveyor's of the finest Arabic cuisine paid the halal tax on this gastronomic delight?
P/S I would of thought it haram tucker personally. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtMf2ydFWFM#t=14 |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Soren on May 19th, 2014 at 12:51pm ‘It must be halal meat — it’s disagreeing with me.’ |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Caliph adamant on May 19th, 2014 at 2:12pm Adamant wrote on May 19th, 2014 at 9:54am:
Sorry forgot to point out it was Dog meat. http://halalporkshop.blogspot.co.uk/ |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Karnal on May 19th, 2014 at 8:22pm Soren wrote on May 19th, 2014 at 12:51pm:
Meat and two veg, eh? Miam miam. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Karnal on May 19th, 2014 at 8:24pm Adamant wrote on May 18th, 2014 at 3:24pm:
You want him, don’t you, dear. You just want some meat. Miam miam. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 21st, 2014 at 1:22pm Adamant wrote on May 18th, 2014 at 3:24pm:
He's probably busy dreaming up another way to spin this. He's tried pretending that a tax is not a tax, that $26000 per month is a trivial administration fee, that abattoirs are "free" to choose a cheaper supplier of halal stickers (and go out of business), and that it is in fact the epitome of free market capitalism when the Indonesian government bans importation of meat that is not rubber-stamped by approved halal certifiers, then only approves one certifier per state and encourages them to charge as much as they can get away with as a monopoly supplier. All of this from people he insists we should simply trust not to divert the funds raised to nefarious causes. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 21st, 2014 at 1:45pm freediver wrote on May 21st, 2014 at 1:22pm:
Actually I believe I described it as a rort and an attempt at extortion. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 23rd, 2014 at 8:30am
It is your prerogative, as a Muslim, to hold both positions at once.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 23rd, 2014 at 11:13am
If all else fails, attack the person and not the argument.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 23rd, 2014 at 5:55pm
I agree with you that it is a rort and a form of extortion, which is why it is so strange that you spent so many pages here making up stupid excuses for it, especially after we had the same discussion previously.
Are you conceding that your apologetics from earlier in this thread were misguided? Are or you maintaining both positions at the same time (as is your prerogative as a Muslim)? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 23rd, 2014 at 6:25pm freediver wrote on May 23rd, 2014 at 5:55pm:
oops almost forgot - construct strawmen too |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 24th, 2014 at 7:43am
The first six pages of this thread was you making excuses for the halal tax and trying to pretending it is something else. It's like I'm talking to two completely different Gandalfs here.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Grand Duke Imam Gandalf on May 24th, 2014 at 8:55am
Funny, I thought it was 6 pages of me talking about the non-tax on the domestic market, and you continually derailing it to talk about the attempted extortion by the Indonesians on the export market.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on May 24th, 2014 at 10:55am
It pushes up local prices as well.
You tried to portray it as a good example of free market capitalism. This is a blatant lie. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Phemanderac on Nov 3rd, 2014 at 8:10pm
What really surprises me about the seven pages of this thread is that there are not more people vehemently opposed to the cruel, inhumane and deplorable live export industry...
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 3rd, 2014 at 8:18pm
"Elizabeth Kendall an Australian historian, political observer and blogger says that the reason it took so long to secure the Fatwa was because the Imams were doing a deal with the Saudi Royal Family.
The Imams agreed to issue the Fatwa as long as the royal family’s oil money was put to good use globalising Islam. They were to fund schools, mosques, universities and more in Western nations. Mosques are mostly responsible for the halal certification agencies that have exploded across the globe since the 1980s. A simple search on the internet confirms that the mid-1970s was when the Islamic resurgence came into full swing and it was funded by an abundance of money from Saudi Arabian oil exports. Beginning in the 1980s, the Saudi Arabian government began to finance the construction of mosques in countries around the world. An estimated $US45 billion has been spent by the Saudi Arabian government financing mosques and Islamic schools in foreign countries. “Ain al-Yaqeen”, a Saudi newspaper, reported in 2002 that Saudi funds may have contributed to building as many as 1,500 mosques and 2,000 other Islamic centres". ********* "A South Australian company is paying one of many competing Islamic Halal Certification “services” (AFIC) an undisclosed monthly fee for its seal of approval. But Scholle Industries Pty Ltd, based in Elizabeth, is a manufacturer of plastic packaging (plastic is derived from oil) and has apparently been able to assure Muslim fraudsters that all oil wells are facing Mecca. Farcical Halal certification is being exposed as nothing more than an extortion racket adding to the cost of almost every type of purchase and governments are failing to act to protect Australians from this Islamic curse on our retail trade for fear of an Islamic electoral backlash. Coercion, and threats by the Islamic “certifiers” to economically cripple Australian manufacturers and processors who refuse to pay up are being ignored by authorities. Since the scam has been exposed, Aussie shoppers are refusing to buy product with the Halal certified label and the little Arab motifs are disappearing from shelf products everywhere like pork pies at a Passover, but the payments and the threats remain. Halal certification headquarters are based in Saudi Arabia with Indonesia (MUI) administering the Asian arm and many various competing Australian “certifiers” operating both nationally and in most States" ************ "Toasted cheese with a dollop of Vegemite was my favourite late night snack, but I leave off the Vegemite now that it’s owned by the American company Mondelez International and sports a little “Halal Certified” notice. No worries, my Aussie owned and made Bega cheese still bubbled under the griller while the jug boiled for a strong cup of tea. That was until I noticed this funny little Arabic hieroglyph on the back of my Bega cheese packet too. Bloody hell, first my Vegemite and now my Bega cheese! No worries, I'm happy with plain toast. I wasn't game to go through the whole fridge or I'd have starved. Trying to find Aussie tucker on the shelves is hard enough but trying to find tucker that is not Islamically sanctioned is near impossible, and it’s meant to be. An insidious and illegal protection racket called “Halal Certification” has worked its way through our food chains without us knowing a thing about it. Australian manufacturers and importers of food and drink are actually paying Islamic halal certifiers up to $30,000 per month for the honour of displaying this little Arabic sign. So, who are these Islamic bastards who are adding to my grocery bill? Well, the "Indonesian Council of Ulama", MUI, (which also orders Fatwa rulings) is the Mafia style Islamic body organising the multi-million dollar racket that forces Australian companies to pay outrageous amounts to have their food certified as halal" link |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 3rd, 2014 at 8:21pm Phemanderac wrote on Nov 3rd, 2014 at 8:10pm:
You're hoping to redirect people away from this particular issue that places Islam and certain Muslims in a poor light, aren't you? "Hey guys! Look over there! Yeah ... over THERE ... ". Can't ... heat ... kitchen .... get out. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 3rd, 2014 at 8:27pm Phemanderac wrote on Nov 3rd, 2014 at 8:10pm:
Irrational hate and blind bigotry trumps your concern for animal welfare. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 3rd, 2014 at 8:35pm greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 3rd, 2014 at 8:27pm:
Correct! Phem's a rightwing nutjob. Wears underpants with a swastika sign. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 3rd, 2014 at 8:43pm Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 3rd, 2014 at 8:35pm:
Are you offended by the swastika, or the underpants? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Karnal on Nov 3rd, 2014 at 9:08pm
No one has the right not to be offended.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Nov 11th, 2014 at 1:56pm
Bigots win - at the expense of Australian farmers:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-09/company-drops-halal-certification-due-to-social-media-pressure/5877584 Quote:
A claim based on rock solid evidence - of course. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Baronvonrort on Nov 11th, 2014 at 4:37pm polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 11th, 2014 at 1:56pm:
When the leftists were outraged at halal slaughter methods in Indonesia they stopped our live export trade which punished everyone in our meat industry right down to truck drivers along with farmers,these leftists were happy to punish our farmers for the behaviour of muslims. Of course the government is being sued by farmers who suffered from the knee jerk reaction from the government in outlawing live exports. So what cost our farmers more was it the live export bans or this pathetic $50K from one airline? Some of us object to halal/kosher or any other branding based on superstitions from dusty old books from the dark ages. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Nov 11th, 2014 at 6:53pm
This is Baron confused over whether he condemns or supports halal slaughter.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Karnal on Nov 11th, 2014 at 7:00pm
Yes, sounds like he’s confused about Freeeeedom too.
For farmers and cows, anyway. Do we support our farmers and cows and leftard supporters, or do we condemn Islam? Food for thought. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Nov 11th, 2014 at 7:09pm
Baron clearly supports our producers getting good trading deals. The representative of the farmers group that supply Fleurieu Milk expressed his frustration over losing this deal with the Emirates. You also had a rep from the ANZAC biscuit company lashing out at the anti-certification campaign waged against them. They both say halal certification creates excellent business opportunities for Australian producers.These are the people FD claims are the poor victims of exploitation and raw deals by the evil halal certifiers.
But no doubt Baron is there in solidarity with the farmers - condemning the bigots who deprived the farmers of this trading deal. Isn't he? Baron?? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Baronvonrort on Nov 12th, 2014 at 11:22am polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 11th, 2014 at 7:09pm:
I wonder how many farmers went broke because of a $50K yoghurt deal with Emirates airline. As the article stated it only needs halal certification if it contains gelatine which it does not. Last week when the halal fee was paid this yoghurt was considered halal, with no fee being paid and no change to the product it is now questionable in muslim minds whether it is halal or not. So the only thing that makes this product halal is whether the halal extortion fee has been paid or not, what a rort. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Nov 12th, 2014 at 11:50am
Ah yes - a once-off $1000 fee - what a rort!!
Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 12th, 2014 at 11:22am:
I assume all food products being sold to the UAE require halal certification, regardless of whats in them. Thats the cost of getting a trade deal with that country. Any Australian food company would pounce at the opportunity and neither the company or the farmers rep seemed to think they were being "rorted" - quite the opposite in fact. I wonder if you recognise your own hypocricy Baron - you feign outrage at the "lefties" cutting off a lucrative live-export trade with Indonesia, yet when anti-islam intimidation campaigns cuts off other trading deals with muslim markets (and this is not just about a relatively small $50k deal), all of a sudden you are scraping around for excuses for why its ok. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Baronvonrort on Nov 12th, 2014 at 11:54am polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 12th, 2014 at 11:50am:
The only hypocrisy i see is from muslims who say it is only halal if a fee is paid. There is no gelatine in their products therefore no halal certification is needed for it to be considered halal. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Nov 12th, 2014 at 12:13pm Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 12th, 2014 at 11:54am:
;D ;D even at deflection you fail Baron. You are perfectly fine with Australian producers benefiting from the "evil muslim ways" - as long as its the "lefties" who are ruining the party. As soon as its your islamophobe buddies trashing the deals, you are full of excuses (and bad deflections). As for your attempted deflection, all trade deals cost something. The producers and the exporters (you know, the people actually impacted by all this) certainly aren't complaining - in fact they are dead keen on securing these deals. Because the benefits far outweigh the costs. Just like where you imply that the "cost" of inhumane slaughter far outweighs the benefit of the trade - otherwise you wouldn't be slamming the "lefties" for trashing the trade. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Hot Breath on Nov 13th, 2014 at 12:47pm
Baron just hates all Muslims and anything to do with their religion. It trumps all his other concerns. edit ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Brian Ross on Nov 15th, 2014 at 4:46pm |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Nov 24th, 2014 at 9:19pm
Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Nov 24th, 2014 at 9:30pm
Gandalf do you still think Halal fees imposed by foreign-government-created monopolies in Australia is an example of market forces at work?
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Nov 24th, 2014 at 9:47pm
no, and I never said it was.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Nov 24th, 2014 at 9:58pm
Gandalf you can barely tell the difference between a government dictating who can do business with who, and a company deciding for themselves under the influence of market forces.
polite_gandalf wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 7:58pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 7:24pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on May 16th, 2014 at 7:49pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 26th, 2014 at 7:31am:
polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22nd, 2014 at 8:08pm:
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Nov 24th, 2014 at 10:02pm
Good FD, you've got all the quotes there - are you starting to understand what I actually said now?
I'll give you a clue: Quote:
Do you remember the part of the story where the abattoirs boycotted the certifiers? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Nov 24th, 2014 at 10:06pm
That doesn't make it "free market forces at work" Gandalf. Customers can respond and refuse to buy things in a communist dictatorship also. There is no end to what Muslims will try to spin in order to justify these Halal money grubbing rorts.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Nov 24th, 2014 at 10:09pm freediver wrote on Nov 24th, 2014 at 9:30pm:
As long as you understand the difference between claiming that "Halal fees imposed by foreign-government-created monopolies in Australia is an example of market forces at work." and what I actually said. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Nov 25th, 2014 at 8:22am
Still not sure. Did you mean that companies losing business because they cannot afford the extortionist fees imposed by foreign-government created monopolies is in fact an example of free market forces at work?
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Nov 25th, 2014 at 9:13am
I meant what I wrote - and what I wrote is self explanatory.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Nov 25th, 2014 at 12:49pm
It is transparently stupid, and you are clutching at straw to try to spin this extortion and it's unfortunate consequences off as "free market forces at work".
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Hot Breath on Nov 25th, 2014 at 1:19pm freediver wrote on Nov 25th, 2014 at 12:49pm:
What "unfortunate consequences" flow from Halal certification in Australia, FD? ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Nov 25th, 2014 at 1:24pm
For crying out loud HB - can't you think for yourself?? sheesh
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Hot Breath on Nov 25th, 2014 at 3:54pm polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 25th, 2014 at 1:24pm:
I know, me being a Bear of Little Brain is a burden on all around me... ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D :D :D |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Nov 25th, 2014 at 6:52pm |dev|null wrote on Nov 25th, 2014 at 1:19pm:
In one post Gandalf argued that businesses boycotting the extortion arrangement - thereby losing business - is an example of free market forces at work. It's basically the same as saying that having a choice between going out of business and putting up with extortion means it isn't really extortion. A bit like previous Muslims saying that having a choice between keeping your mouth shut or getting your head chopped off is merely a slightly different take on freedom of speech. This is how Muslims try to spin the actions of their fellow Muslims into something benign or good. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Hot Breath on Nov 25th, 2014 at 6:58pm freediver wrote on Nov 25th, 2014 at 6:52pm:
How is seeking Halal certification "extortion" whereas by implication, seeking Kosher certification isn't? Do you have any evidence that Halal certification authorities, in Australia, are demanding that companies gain Halal certification and threatening them with some form of violence or something similar if they don't? "Extortion" implies some sort of threat FD. It is a crime and reportable to Police. If it is occurring, why isn't it being reported to Police? Or are you allowing hyperbole to get the better of you because of your Islamophobia? ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Nov 25th, 2014 at 7:11pm Quote:
It's the way they do it. The problem with the Halal arrangement is that several foreign governments (including Indonesia), demand it of abbattoirs, with the threat they they will be excluded from the market. They go further by establishing regional monopolies within Australia for the purpose of pushing up prices as far as they can go without the rort collapsing because the market is completely destroyed. These monopolies then do with the huge somes of money raised whatever it is that Muslims do with ill gotten funds. I won't put any ideas into your head in case Gandalf accuses me of racism. Do you think this sort of rort is acceptable? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Karnal on Nov 25th, 2014 at 9:56pm freediver wrote on Nov 25th, 2014 at 7:11pm:
How cunning and diabolical these people are, FD. Most of them are boongs, no? Typical. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Brian Ross on Nov 25th, 2014 at 11:26pm freediver wrote on Nov 25th, 2014 at 7:11pm:
I look forward to you allowing non-inspected meat into the Australian market, FD. I also look forward to you trying to get non-Kosher approved meat into a Jewish market such as Israel or even some suburbs of Melbourne. You really do post some absolute tosh at times, FD. The reality is, if you want to sell into certain markets, you must satisfy their requirements as to slaughter/packaging/safety/hygiene, etc. They are buying, they get to call the tune. If you don't want to play by their rules, then take your goods elsewhere, simple as that. ::) Quote:
Please name one of these monopolies, FD. While you're at it, why haven't you reported them to the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission? It was set up specifically to prevent monopolies forming and to ensure competition. It has the power to break such monopolies up and force them to compete fairly. Or is this just more tosh, FD? ::) Quote:
You are yet to prove there is a "rort" yet. You're doing as badly as Adamant with his completely unsuccessful attempt to prove the Halal certification in Australia funds overseas Terrorism. ::) |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Nov 26th, 2014 at 1:15pm
It was in the papers recently Brian. It was muslims themselves who were complaining about it (the ones who got pushed out in order to create the monopoly, because they were charging too little). There was a lengthy discussion here at the time. I believe you were even involved.
Demanding health and safety standards is one thing. Demanding massive "donations" to shadowy Muslim organisations is entirely different. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Hot Breath on Nov 26th, 2014 at 1:31pm freediver wrote on Nov 25th, 2014 at 7:11pm:
I don't see any "rorts". They are paying the money so don't you think they have the right to demand what they are purchasing complies with their dietary requirements? If Australian companies don't want to comply, they can walk away from the deal, no one is making them comply. ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D :D :D |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Nov 26th, 2014 at 7:30pm
Their dietary requirements are artificial monopolies in foreign countries to raise huge sums of money for shadowy Islamic organisations?
Do you really have no problem with this? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Karnal on Nov 26th, 2014 at 7:44pm freediver wrote on Nov 26th, 2014 at 7:30pm:
That’s a question, FD. Shall we ask Muhammed? Talk about cunning. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Hot Breath on Nov 27th, 2014 at 12:42pm freediver wrote on Nov 26th, 2014 at 7:30pm:
How is they purchasing (ie paying Australian companies money) funding "shadowy Islamic organisations"? Can you prove any link between AUSTRALIAN certification authorities and "shadowy Islamic organisations"? If you can't, all you're complaining about is the flow of money from overseas to Australia and do you really think that is a sensible complaint FD? ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Nov 27th, 2014 at 1:23pm Quote:
That's where the money goes HB. No-one knows what they do with it. We have enough trouble keeping track of federal government funds to Islamic schools. Quote:
They are the shadowy Islamic organisations. Quote:
What money flows form overseas to Australia? And not it is not all I am criticising. I laid it out pretty clearly for you several times already. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Karnal on Nov 27th, 2014 at 3:06pm freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2014 at 1:23pm:
Ah. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Hot Breath on Nov 27th, 2014 at 3:13pm freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2014 at 1:23pm:
To Australian companies producing food for Muslim markets? Again I ask, how is that funding, "shadowy Islamic organisations"? Quote:
What, Australian companies producing food for overseas Muslim markets? I'd suggest the taxation department knows and their auditors know. You know, the people who sign off on the Australian companies' annual reports? Quote:
Doesn't appear to be too hard FD. Afterall, thats how we've caught the few bad apples out. Quote:
They are the shadowy Islamic organisations. [/quote] Who are? Please name names and specific evidence linking these companies to "shadowy Islamic organisations"? If you have such evidence, don't you think you should supply it to the authorities? Quote:
What money flows form overseas to Australia? [/quote] The money spent on purchasing Australian goods. Please try and keep up FD. Quote:
No, you've made quite a few unsupported claims. You have presented no evidence. Typical innuendo used by bigots though. ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D :D :D |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Baronvonrort on Nov 27th, 2014 at 3:18pm |dev|null wrote on Nov 27th, 2014 at 3:13pm:
Are you saying the Australian Federation of Islamic councils is a bad apple? Has the President Ikebal Patel made numerous submissions to Parliament for us to consider sharia law and legal pluralism? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Nov 27th, 2014 at 7:18pm Quote:
Are you having a slow day today? It goes to Australian 'Muslim' companies that produce nothing but pieces of paper. Quote:
The shadowy Islamic organisations charge those Australian companies huge sums of money on behalf of foreign governments for the right to export. Quote:
When the Australian government gives Islamic schools money with strings attached, they can place enforcable conditions on it an (eventually) uncover the rorts. Yet we still do not know where those millions of dollars went that the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils stole from schools. As far as the Halal rorts go, the Australian government has no such authority over where the money goes. It 'legitimately' disappears into a black hole. Quote:
You want me to prove that a company is linked to itself? Quote:
They are not unsupported at all. You are just having extreme difficulty understanding the basics. It was all over the papers recently. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Nov 27th, 2014 at 7:23pm |dev|null wrote on Nov 27th, 2014 at 3:13pm:
Oh you have to understand HB, FD defers to common sense and thinks for himself. You'll get the hang of it one day. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Hot Breath on Nov 28th, 2014 at 11:29am freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2014 at 7:18pm:
What does? I'd have thought the money paid to purchase Australian food products goes to the companies that produce those food products. Halal certification fees go to Australian certification companies, which must comply with Australian company law in order to operate. Are you claiming they are breaking the law in some way? Surely, if you have evidence of this you are required to supply it to the authorities? Failure to do so would obviously make you complicit in these illegal activities! We wouldn't want to see you prosecuted as well FD! ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D Quote:
The shadowy Islamic organisations charge those Australian companies huge sums of money on behalf of foreign governments for the right to export. [/quote] Do they? So, you believe that Australian companies should be exempt from foreign nation's laws when exporting to those foreign nations? "Huge sums" is a very imprecise term, surely you can be more accurate FD as you appear to be claiming you know so much about these activities. You have, of course reported them to the authorities? Quote:
When the Australian government gives Islamic schools money with strings attached, they can place enforcable conditions on it an (eventually) uncover the rorts. Yet we still do not know where those millions of dollars went that the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils stole from schools. As far as the Halal rorts go, the Australian government has no such authority over where the money goes. It 'legitimately' disappears into a black hole. [/quote] The AFIC "stole" from schools? There was more than one case, FD? Can you please provide some details on all these cases? Further, can you please explain if the AFIC "stole" this money why no prosecutions have occurred of the AFIC? Quote:
You want me to prove that a company is linked to itself? [/quote] I want you to prove the existence of what you claim are "shadowy Islamic organisations." I want you to prove that there are links between Australian Halal certification authorities and these ""shadowy Islamic organisations," and that fees to the Australian Halal certificaion authorities are being used to fund Terrorism. Otherwise this is just Islamophobic hyperbole. Quote:
They are not unsupported at all. You are just having extreme difficulty understanding the basics. It was all over the papers recently.[/quote] If it was, you should have absolutely no trouble providing references to these newspaper reports. Where are they? Why are you resisting doing so? ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D ;D |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Hot Breath on Nov 28th, 2014 at 11:31am polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 27th, 2014 at 7:23pm:
Maybe, maybe not. I prefer not to. Why should he be exempt from the same thing he expects others to provide (ie evidence)? ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D :D :D |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Nov 28th, 2014 at 11:38am |dev|null wrote on Nov 28th, 2014 at 11:29am:
FD seems to know a lot about criminal activities that the authorities are not aware of. For example the transfer of government money by Malik Fahd school to AFIC was definitely, no question, used to fund terrorism. FD knows this for a fact - despite not having any evidence or the fact that the incident saw two separate government audits with no recommendations for criminal investigation by the police, and the government funding to Malik Fahd being reinstated after the audits. |dev|null wrote on Nov 28th, 2014 at 11:29am:
FD has already prosecuted this case - it consists entirely of posing the question "do you have a better explanation". What more could you possibly want HB?? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Nov 28th, 2014 at 1:50pm Quote:
Stick to what I actually say HB. Other than the issue of where the money goes (which no-one knows) I have not even hinted at illegal behaviour. Do you understand the difference between illegal and immoral? Because every time I ask you whether you are OK with this behaviour, you pretend I am claiming it is illegal. Do you have an opinion on what they are up to? Quote:
Again, stick to what I actually say. Quote:
For one company alone, the price was tens of thousands of dollars per month. Check the newspaper articles if you want to know more. Quote:
There were plenty of cases. It has been all over the media for years. Quote:
There have been newspaper articles about them and the huge sums of money they rort. Do you think it is all made up? Quote:
I have already, in this thread. It would be easy for find if not for your endless stream of stupid questions. Quote:
Can you quote me Gandalf? Do you think it definitely did not go towards funding terrorism? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Nov 28th, 2014 at 1:55pm freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2014 at 1:50pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2014 at 8:16am:
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Nov 28th, 2014 at 2:01pm freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2014 at 1:50pm:
no, it could have been sent to the North Pole - but it doesn't mean we start throwing around baseless accusations that it definitely was |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Hot Breath on Nov 28th, 2014 at 2:25pm freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2014 at 1:50pm:
If it is only immoral, it is as you, yourself now admit, not illegal. So, you find it "immoral", many other people wonder why you're getting your knickers in a twist, particularly when you keep refusing to present any firm evidence, either or illegality or even this supposed "immorality". Time to put up or shut up FD. Put your cards on the table and produce some evidence, even some links to media reports substantiating what you've been claiming or this is just obviously more Islamophobic hyperbole. If you can't, piss off. Stop the innuendo and actually admit you're a bigot and an Islamophobe. Even Yadda does a better job than you're doing! :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D Quote:
Again, stick to what I actually say. [/quote] I am. You're making the claims! Produce the evidence! Quote:
For one company alone, the price was tens of thousands of dollars per month. Check the newspaper articles if you want to know more. [/quote] What article? You haven't produced evidence that one exists! :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D Quote:
There were plenty of cases. It has been all over the media for years. [/quote] Then you shouldn't have any difficulty producing proof FD. Where is it? Put up or shut up! Quote:
There have been newspaper articles about them and the huge sums of money they rort. Do you think it is all made up? [/quote] Then you shouldn't have any difficulty producing proof FD. Where is it? Put up or shut up! Quote:
I have already, in this thread. It would be easy for find if not for your endless stream of stupid questions. [/quote] Then you shouldn't have any difficulty producing proof FD. Where is it? Put up or shut up! Quote:
Can you quote me Gandalf? Do you think it definitely did not go towards funding terrorism?[/quote] Then you shouldn't have any difficulty producing proof FD. Where is it? Put up or shut up! ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Nov 28th, 2014 at 2:45pm freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2014 at 1:50pm:
Yes lets stick to what FD actually said: freediver wrote on Jul 21st, 2014 at 7:22pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 21st, 2014 at 9:10pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 7:03pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 9:57pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 7:28pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 27th, 2014 at 9:06am:
This is FD "not even hinting at illegal behaviour" |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Brian Ross on Nov 28th, 2014 at 6:58pm
I FD has been caught again, spreading bullshit. Mate, you'd be better off using this as fertiliser on the farm, rather than spreading it all our screens. ::)
No evidence == didn't happen. QED |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Nov 28th, 2014 at 7:28pm Quote:
Exhibit A: HB's unwillingness to offer an opinion. Quote:
Here are some I prepared earlier. Like I said, it was all over the papers, and was a hot topic here for a long time, spawning about a dozen different threads. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1378852212/25#25 http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1399946272/16#16 When not even Gandalf is arguing the point, you know it is solid. Quote:
OK Gandalf, let's play "can you tell the difference". I'll start. Can you tell the difference between these two statements? Should we turn a blind eye to the terrorism risks associated with Muslim community leaders siphoning off millions of dollars in government funds FD seems to know a lot about criminal activities that the authorities are not aware of. For example the transfer of government money by Malik Fahd school to AFIC was definitely, no question, used to fund terrorism. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Brian Ross on Nov 28th, 2014 at 7:33pm
Why the reluctance to provide evidence, FD if you're so sure?
I've read the two articles you've linked to. Neither has firm proof, just more supposition and rumour. You don't think it's time as HB suggested, "you put up or shut up"? ::) |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Dec 1st, 2014 at 1:55pm
Sorry FD - you're only smearing the muslim community by inferring (baselessly) that they go around giving terrorists money from stolen government funds.
As long as we're not too specific eh? all muslims are all lying cheating scum - is fine - as long as its not anything specific |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Dec 1st, 2014 at 1:58pm freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2014 at 7:28pm:
Perhaps its more relevant for you to explain the difference between these two: Quote:
and... freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2014 at 8:16am:
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 8:33am polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 1st, 2014 at 1:55pm:
There I go again, saying things without actually saying them. What sort of black magic is this? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 9:31am freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 8:33am:
I stand corrected. This is FD definitely not baselessly inferring that the muslim community go around giving terrorists money: freediver wrote on Jul 21st, 2014 at 9:10pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 7:28pm:
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Hot Breath on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 11:31am
FD, have you provided that evidence yet? ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D :D :D
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 1:08pm polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 9:31am:
Gandalf I would appreciate your answer to those questions, particularly the last one. Who, if not the Muslim community, do you think funds Islamic terrorism? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Hot Breath on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 1:16pm freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 1:08pm:
You're implying that Terrorism has general support within the "Muslim community" FD. It's like suggesting that 'cause some Irish descended people in Boston collected money in bars for "the boys across the water," (the IRA), the entire Irish community supported Terrorism. Perhaps if you reworded your question and made it less broad and therefore less insulting, you might get an answer. Of course, you won't 'cause that would be an admission as to your bigotry but I suppose we can always hope... ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 1:32pm freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 1:08pm:
This is your logic? Some muslims fund islamic terrorism - therefore AFIC is guilty? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 6:40pm Quote:
Allow me to clarify. I am asking who, if not the Muslim community, do you think funds Islamic terrorism? Quote:
It is a question Gandalf. Another one: Should we turn a blind eye to the terrorism risks associated with Muslim community leaders siphoning off millions of dollars in government funds? And before you start to hyperventilate, these questions are not the same as the statements you attempted to turn them into. I can only assume you are so desperate to turn them into something else because you are uncomfortable with your own answers to them. Perhaps you are a bigot? Racist, even? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 7:16pm freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 6:40pm:
The questions are based on a false premise - namely that a muslim organisation syphoning off government money represents a terrorist threat. You are saying that just because they are muslim, they therefore must be supporting terrorists. Thats what we call baseless crap. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 7:24pm
Should we turn a blind eye to the terrorism risks associated with Muslim community leaders siphoning off millions of dollars in government funds?
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 7:40pm
Perhaps you are having difficulty understanding FD - a question that has a false premise cannot be answered.
Do you think its fair to label every single misdemeanor involving muslims as a terrorist threat? |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 8:54pm
So it's not that you want to turn a blind eye - you have actually thought about it and consider there to be zero terrorism risks associated with Muslim community leaders siphoning off millions of dollars in government funds?
Quote:
Ones involving huge sums of ill-gotten money disappearing into the black hole of Muslim organisations are a risk that cannot be swept under the rug. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Brian Ross on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 11:07pm freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 8:54pm:
You keep claiming this but present no evidence, FD. Why? ::) |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Dec 3rd, 2014 at 8:59am freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 8:54pm:
I believe we should be dealing with the evidence we have - stolen money should be treated as stolen money. Terrorist funding should be dealt with when, and only when, there is evidence of it happening. It really is a sight to behold such breathtaking leaps in logic here FD - that muslims are, by default, guilty of supporting terrorists. Also don't try and twist this into a mere possible terrorist threat, you were stating it as unquestioned fact: freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2014 at 8:16am:
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Dec 3rd, 2014 at 7:46pm Quote:
And how do you find that evidence without deciding where you ought to go looking for it? Quote:
You are the only one making that leap. I am asking the perfectly reasonable question: Should we turn a blind eye to the terrorism risks associated with Muslim community leaders siphoning off millions of dollars in government funds? Quote:
That's what a risk is gandalf. The risk is still there, even if you have no evidence. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Brian Ross on Dec 3rd, 2014 at 9:31pm freediver wrote on Dec 3rd, 2014 at 7:46pm:
Actually, FD, with no evidence it becomes mere supposition or even other more appropriate words as Slander, Libel (depending upon whether spoken or published), Defamation, Slur, or perhaps even Falsehood or Lie. As you have yet to produce any evidence, despite being challenged to several times, I'd put it down to the last two. ::) |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Dec 3rd, 2014 at 10:59pm freediver wrote on Dec 3rd, 2014 at 7:46pm:
You can't even see that you are making the leap by asking the question. If you weren't making the leap you wouldn't be asking the question. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Karnal on Dec 4th, 2014 at 8:13am
Yes, G, but sometimes a question is just a question.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Dec 6th, 2014 at 8:05pm
Muslims reject the concept of separation of church and state. Indonesian Muslims are using the halal rorting service to impose this backward standard on Australian businesses. Our trading partner, which Gandalf has described as "secular", is forcing businesses to indirectly donate to the Islamic propaganda machine, having no idea where the funds actually end up. Naturally, Gandalf gets a bit upset when the conversation turns to all that money.
Aussie firms paying inflated price to have Halal certification http://www.news.com.au/national/aussie-firms-paying-inflated-price-to-have-halal-certification/story-fncynjr2-1226743120181 POWERFUL Muslim clerics in Jakarta are raising money for Islamic schools and mosques by forcing Australian businesses to pay an inflated religious levy on meat exports. The Indonesian Council of Ulama (MUI), the top Islamic body which orders Fatwa religious rulings, is dictating how much Australian companies must pay to have their food certified as Halal, or legal under Islamic law. The MUI has expelled three Australian certifiers of Halal meat - even ordering one to stop doing business because it was charging less than its rivals. The scandal has triggered a boycott by some of Australia's leading meat processors, which are refusing to use more expensive certifiers endorsed by the MUI. But abattoirs have been unable to export Halal meat to Indonesia as a result, risking a trade dispute with one of Australia's key export markets. Start of sidebar. Skip to end of sidebar. End of sidebar. Return to start of sidebar. MUI chairman Amidhan Shaberah yesterday said that setting minimum fees for Halal was "just part of our control''. "We have to standardise the charge to avoid any unfair competition between certifiers,'' he said during an interview in Jakarta. "If we allow them to charge under the standard (price), other certifiers will (find it) hard to get clients.'' Dr Shaberah said Australian Halal certifiers should donate profits to Islamic mosques and schools. "They should contribute for mosques, Islamic schools, the Islamic community and other social activities,'' he said. The MUI has suspended Brisbane-based Australian Halal Food Services (AHFS) for engaging in "unfair competition'' that could "weaken (the) Halal certification movement". "Descended rate of price and cost of certifying … by AHFS … is an unfair competition and weaken(s) Halal certification movement,'' its suspension letter stated. One major Queensland meat processor, which did not want to be identified, claimed it had been quoted $27,000 a month in Halal certification fees through another MUI-endorsed certifier - four times more than AHFS had been charging. Stephen Kelly, the general manager of industry affairs for the Japanese-owned Nippon Meat Packers, said its Queensland abattoirs that had used AHFS could no longer sell Halal meat in Indonesia. "Indonesia is still an important market and we would be keen to have a resolution of this,'' he said. JBS Australia - the nation's biggest meat packer and exporter with more than 8500 employees - has also been unable to export beef from Queensland to Indonesia. "We would like to think there's competition in the market rather than a monopoly in the market,'' JBS director John Berry said. Dr Shaberah said the Brisbane certifier, AHFS, had been suspended for trying to work interstate, and a Melbourne company, Australian Halal Authority and Advisers (AHAA), had been deregistered for "operating without a permit for more than five years'' - even though it was recognised by AQIS at the time. But a spokesman for AHAA said it had been banned from operating because its head office was in Victoria - where the rival Global Halal Trade Centre is the sole approved certifier. Dr Shaberah said the third certifier to be struck off, the Adelaide Mosque Islamic Society of South Australia, had failed to pay its US$1000 membership fee and had been "out of contact'' for more than a year. Adelaide Mosque Islamic Society refused to comment yesterday. The federal Department of Agriculture confirmed it had no power over approvals for religious certifiers, but a spokesman said: "The Australian Government values our close relationship with MUI and will continue to work together with MUI to overcome issues that affect the mutually beneficial trade in red meat to Indonesia." WHAT IS HALAL? HALAL is an Arabic word meaning "lawful". Foods that are prohibited as non-Halal include alcohol, pig meat and carnivorous animals such as crocodiles. Muslims can only eat meat that has been prepared according to Islamic law. Animals must be slaughtered by a "sane adult Muslim'', who invokes the name of Allah before slashing the animal's throat with a razor-sharp knife as it faces Mecca. It must not see other animals being killed, and must bleed out before processing. Australian animal welfare regulations require that animals be stunned before slaughter, but Islamic groups insist that stunning is non-Halal. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Brian Ross on Dec 6th, 2014 at 9:41pm
Actually, it appears more to be a monopolistic device to prevent competition from "upstart" Australian Halal certifiers, FD. Something commonly used in all societies to create cartels. Adam Smith warned about the dangers of such practices in "The Wealth of Nations", as it is not confined to Halal certification by a long shot. Indeed, we can presently see something similar occurring in the Australian mining industry at the moment over Iron ore production. ::)
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Dec 7th, 2014 at 10:02am freediver wrote on Dec 6th, 2014 at 8:05pm:
...with completely baseless claims: freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2014 at 8:16am:
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Dec 7th, 2014 at 10:07am
... to the extent that he will deny even a risk of the ill-gotten millions ending up in the hands of terrorists.
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by gandalf on Dec 7th, 2014 at 10:45am freediver wrote on Dec 7th, 2014 at 10:07am:
Perceived risks need to actually be based on something. Here I'll show you a completely baseless claim where an imaginary risk is being manufactured: Quote:
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by freediver on Dec 30th, 2014 at 8:06pm
http://www.smh.com.au/national/why-halal-certification-is-in-turmoil-20141227-12cmd3.html
Halal certification in Australia is dominated by four big Islamic groups – one in Melbourne and three in Sydney. They are the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, the unofficial peak body; the Halal Certification Authority Australia, the Supreme Islamic Council of Halal Meat in Australia and the Islamic Co-ordinating Council of Victoria. Under Islamic law, the money the certifiers earn is supposed to cover costs and if there is any left it goes to the Muslim community organisations that the certifying company is aligned with – mosques, schools and welfare groups. Those who control the certification rights can also fund imams and bring preachers to Australia. Sydney-based Australian Federation of Islamic Councils (AFIC) set up an Islamic school in Tarneit in Melbourne's west and an Islamic centre on Christmas Island for Malaysian Muslims, says chief executive officer Amjad Mahboob. "The international halal market is huge," Mahboob says, "and Australia being a primary producer of food items means we are relied upon so it's very important the credibility of what we do is protected at all times." Yet that credibility has sometimes been brittle. In 2003, a court case involving Shafiq Khan, an influential figure around Sydney's Supreme Islamic Council of Halal Meat in Australia, saw former supporters swear he had diverted without approval more than $1 million to charities, including his own Al-Faisal College, at the expense of constituent charities. Former Prime Minister John Howard opened the college in 2000. Mr Khan negotiated a settlement and agreed to return the money to the council. In 2009, the Victorian Supreme Court found the Islamic Co-ordinating Council of Victoria (ICCV) had defamed a competitor in the lucrative halal trade, and ordered damages be paid. Then in 2012 a Sydney Islamic school aligned to the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils was ordered to pay back $9m in NSW government funding after it was found money had been allegedly diverted to the federation the peak body for halal certification in Australia. "It is a matter that is before the court," said Mahboob. "We are disputing the [NSW] minister's findings." This year, in a Federal Court trademark case it was revealed two Sydney kebab shops got free fake certificates from a wholesaler, which if they'd opted to buy them elsewhere would have cost $5000 each. In Melbourne and Sydney, the certifying industry has begun to move away from predominantly Middle Eastern interests towards businesspeople from Turkey and the Balkans. An investigator familiar with the industry said it was a "highly competitive" and "very incestuous" market. "It is riven with factions," he said. |
Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Brian Ross on Dec 31st, 2014 at 4:15pm
Guilt by Association, FD? How unusual for you. Many industries are "highly competitive" or "very incestuous". Just take a look at Real Estate! You seem however to find something sinister in it. I wonder why? ::)
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Title: Re: About that "infidel tax" on halal products Post by Caliph adamant on Dec 31st, 2014 at 7:49pm
personal abuse - post removed
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