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General Discussion >> Feedback >> What is the purpose of rules? http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1400374097 Message started by Phemanderac on May 18th, 2014 at 10:48am |
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Title: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Phemanderac on May 18th, 2014 at 10:48am
Yep, title kind of says it all really.
That said, I am curious as to what people think is the purpose behind having rules in place, or, what do you think rules provide for the community they are put in place for (in this particular instance I would look at the microcosm that is the Political forum or, as it happens, the political forums)? It seems to me that this would be a valid topic for the feedback board and, by extension a valid and timely debate to have. Thoughts? |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by John Smith on May 18th, 2014 at 10:53am
some people are exempt from the rules .... not just on this forum but the community in general.
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 18th, 2014 at 11:30am
I have a question for all my grandkids if they ask about rules.....
its this.. what would you say if they decided to take away all sets of traffic lights..what would happen do you think?.. in most cases.. the answer is its chaos... and thats what I tell them rules are.. traffic lights.... they give us all a fair share now dont tell me you have never been fed up to the eyeballs when the lights turn red just as you get there and you give way to nothing.. do you ever try to beat the lights..... have you even been fined for disobeying the lights.. of course we have... its human nature to break something that is an irritant.... but smart ones amongst us realise without rules.. we are a shattered broken society... its the ones that constantly break them that find it the hardest to fit in and be happy... treat others as you would have them treat you. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Cliff48 on May 18th, 2014 at 11:35am cods wrote on May 18th, 2014 at 11:30am:
Of course it must be asked: What happens when the rules are selectively applied? What do you tell your grandchildren then? |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 18th, 2014 at 11:47am Cliff48 wrote on May 18th, 2014 at 11:35am:
thats not the point though is it... we all break/change the rules.... the point I make is we cannot do without them... we are all human cliffy we all have different ideas and not one person can do a thing about that....so what we do is.. we say we will all drive our cars on the leftside of the road...... now along comes the town idiot and decides he will not conform....well I think we know what will happen... ask yourself when the rules are manipulated... how bad are they?? what are the consequences... if any... we see some that we rage up about...and eventually make enough noise things change.. but it doesnt stop the next one... it just means those that believe in rules.. one rule fits all..then its up to those to make a lot of noise when they get broken..for the few. its been the same since man stood upright.. rules I am talking about not laws... |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by perceptions_now on May 18th, 2014 at 12:11pm
To start with, I re-post the following, as it may relate to part of the discussion.
perceptions_now wrote on May 12th, 2014 at 1:31pm:
That said, let me also say, that everything has limits, be it natural or human and that is part of the reason why we have rules. It is also correct that for all actions & in-actions, there are Consequences! Finally, whatever rules & limitations may be imposed, those rules & limitations will always be stretched by some, whilst others will stay within the boundaries laid down. Not sure if that helps, but they are some of my views. Cheers! |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Cliff48 on May 18th, 2014 at 12:21pm cods wrote on May 18th, 2014 at 11:47am:
So its ok if people break rules that you don't agree with? For me ... i just like to see consistency whether I agree or not. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 18th, 2014 at 12:40pm Cliff48 wrote on May 18th, 2014 at 12:21pm:
can you explain where I said that???????... I am talking about human beings.. you obviously are not... in a perfect world that you want... we wouldnt need rules would we??? is the law consistent????... if it aint then dont expect mere rules to be as they are all made by men.... what unrules are you referring to in particular it would help to kn ow. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Phemanderac on May 18th, 2014 at 1:03pm
Thanks all for your feedback so far.
Perhaps I was not clear when I asked about the "purpose". Thank you Cods, in my opinion, you have at least alluded to a purpose (avoiding Chaos). I already acknowledge and understand that rules (particularly man made rules) are generally broken or skirted at some point, however, that was not what I really asked. I disagree with the viewpoint put by a few that rules and laws are somehow different, the only real difference would seem to be the punitive measure attached if you brake one. Laws are in effect just another form of rules.... Of course, I need to clarify, this threads intention was mainly to look at forum rules because of recent "events" to be honest. However, that said, it is probably quite apt to discuss rules/laws even more broadly, I would respectfully hope though that the intent of that discussion is not lost on Admin people. So Rules.... What is their ultimate purpose though? It seems to me that if we (the community) cannot come to consensus as to why we might need rules, then the setting up, implementation and enforcement will be neither appropriate, consistent or confidence building. In short, they will be nothing more than a deficit to the integrity of the community. Further, and in part in response to PN. If rules are articulated in such a fashion that there is squirm room, loopholes or, as you seem to be suggesting degrees of severity, then, in short, the rules have been ineptly developed or articulated. Or, those implementing/enforcing them are not fully conversant with the overall meaning, or, lack the understanding to apply them equally. I realise that may be seen as an affront, however, that is not my intent. For the main part, those who are subject to the rules actually do need them applied judiciously and consistently. Further, as the old axiom mentions, justice not only needs to be done, it also needs to be seen to be done, hence the moderation is secrecy idea is flawed as well. I realise the intent in not naming people was to avoid having flame war type threads, clearly, those threads are present and happening. Also, by articulating when and why action has been taken, it does not have to automatically open up a debate, i.e. the "reporting" thread could be strictly for admin to use (as an example). In short, I understand your comments as to why some rules are not seen to be implemented, however, I would respectfully suggest that this leaves the situation very open to abuse, ad hoc application and completely ignoring of breaches when it suits. Once again, I would respectfully ask all to consider the question: "What is the purpose behind having rules...?" |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by El Gatto on May 18th, 2014 at 7:12pm Rules? RULES? Rules, my dear fellow, are for the guidance of wise men, and the strict adherence of fools. **From a famous quote by someone not quite famous enough for me to recall offhand** |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Phemanderac on May 19th, 2014 at 8:30am
Well, thanks to those who had some input here.
Having read other threads I think I have the answer now... No one really knows why. I noted this quite early on after coming here and thought "early days see how it goes...." Quite clearly, there is no insight into why we would have rules - therefore, that goes a long way to explain why there is a distinct lack of succinct clarity in those rules that are articulated in numerous places throughout the several boards. That goes a long way to explain why there are quite clear black and white rules (amongst the pile...) which are, at best, adhered to, enforced and upheld in grey (as opposed to the rule being stated as black and white). It also clarifies now for me, why moderation is reactive and not proactive - lack of insight, understanding and commitment. Am I being harsh? No, not at all, if you want to have no rules and act arbitrarily with select posts and posters then be honest about it. Or review and simplify your rules at least so that they can be implemented with consistency, oh, and just prior to that seek some advice as to why groups of people doing anything need some rules - answer that first it might help your review of existing rules. Sandpit to Cesspit That is the journey presently being embarked on. That has long been the problem at the other place (yes I am also a former member/survivor) it hit cesspit years ago and has never recovered. It is easily avoided, however, that would require admin/owner having the will to avoid it - no one else can redirect the forum. Does it matter anyway? At the end of the day, most likely not (sorry to those people who feel some ownership/belonging here for the potential insult in that comment). It is just another little internet community amongst a Gazillion other little internet communities. So at the end of the day, just walking away is always a valid option. The important message in that though for the Admin (I guess that is the term...) is that this means your relevance is also diminished, why? Well simply put, sensible posters who know their stuff (if there are any here) realise that the Mods are an unnecessary step is something is really wrong/illegal/defamatory/etc... External bodies are far more appropriate, well if your complaint/query is valid at least. That would be a good litmus test I suppose, however, it would also mean that you don't run the risk of disturbing the sleep/dinner/drinking time or otherwise private life of a volunteer moderator. Particularly one who will (or won't possibly) respond to the PM that is the preferred method of moderating... (i.e. reactive). A couple of other observations To anyone who has the absolute stupidity to make a comment in a public forum along the lines of "why are you responding it is none of your business...." That's a great shutdown I suppose, except, your private conversation you are conducting in a public space. To me, that means that your comment is driven by a lack of reason and logic and, in fact, the person who apparently knows nothing has stumped you (who knows everything it seems) for a reasoned response. OR you are having a private conversation in a public forum.... Either way, super dumb comment to make in a public forum. "Baiting" - the least acted on issue in the place. Baiting seems almost part and parcel with un-moderated online argument...Perhaps that is because people lack a valid argument in response, or logic has trumped their beliefs (that one always smarts), or perhaps they lack the skill to articulate their counterpoint and so, get lazy. Either way, just a behavioural heads up - if you want to reduce it, do not give multiple warnings (that just makes the warner look dumb, weak and insipid) and then attack with a scatter gun - nip it in the bud early, consistently and with even handed application. What did we just have "several" people apparently suspended? Why? Because apparently no one could see this coming and, therefore, sat on collective hands. So....What kind of forum do you want? That is the other question you guys might want to consider, although the board owner has been around long enough, perhaps he is already answering that very question.... With actions (or inactions) rather than words. you could run this place effectively with three or four basic rules and consistency TBH, I just wanted to check out the marquee function, but seriously, a few rules relating to behaviour not content and the job is done... |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 19th, 2014 at 10:21am
its not the RULES you are concerned about
its the application of those rules... I have noticed quite a few complaints about the action or non actions of the mods on this forum.. how does anyone know what action the mods have or havent taken????...thats what I dont understand.. you see someone driving through a red light...how do you know they have been booked for doing so??. the answer is you dont.... same here... those who have been banned pretend they then do not understand the rules.. and therefore were banned wrongly.... ::) ::) isnt that all by the sound of things.. mods are called prejudiced & biased amongst other things....cannot protect themselves as they are not allowed to say.. "yes I did ban whatshisname.".. he/she would be breaking one of FDs rules..wouldnt he/she? just imagine a crazy world/forum without rules???... you may have noticed one or two have been banned permanently either from this forum or just certain boards.... because they broke one or two of the rules....once too often.. like losing your drivers licence..it takes certain freedoms away from you... learning curves ::) if you take notice of the rules you break..then you just may learn from them.. well its the hope that counts. you ignore at your own peril.. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Phemanderac on May 19th, 2014 at 11:32am
I appreciate the feedback Cods, however, respectfully I disagree regarding the application of the rules.
That said, I freely acknowledge the application of said rules is, in fact, part of the issue. To be perfectly frank though, the purpose of having rules is the issue. Evidently this seems hard to respond to and articulate (your response not withstanding) for the main part. Whilst you highlighted avoiding chaos as the reason, which in part I understand and at least do not disagree with - I would contend that the rules articulated here are naught to do with avoiding chaos. I would respectfully suggest to all and sundry, if you can clearly articulate the purpose of your rules, then the development, implementation and application of your rules becomes a much more simple process. Sure, on the one hand it could be seen as me having a go here, however, I would (once again, respectfully) suggest that I am endeavouring to encourage some self reflection for all about behavioural standards. Whether or not moderators/admin want to promote and support that idea, make changes or leave things pretty much to look after themselves is totally up to those individuals. I like the traffic lights analogy too, well put. I would only add a bit further that in other examples of law and order, the outcomes are made very public, as we have seen thanks to our Accountability is a pretty important thing to some people. Being held to account is also pretty important to some. Then there are those who would prefer to only hold those to account because they disagree.... Which forum (community) would you like to be a party to? |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mantra on May 19th, 2014 at 12:18pm Phemanderac wrote on May 19th, 2014 at 11:32am:
It actually does appear that you're having a go at certain members and moderators, whilst demanding control yourself. That might not be intentional of course. There are set rules in place, but as the moderators have said - often they have to make judgements on individual cases. A member can jokingly swear and another can say the same thing viciously with intention to insult - do they both get banned? The moderators are only here on a voluntary basis. Perhaps if they were paid a healthy salary, they might be more pedantic in their approach to moderating. Meanwhile we should be happy with the way they are doing things. Generally they try to listen to the concerns of the members and that should be appreciated. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Neferti on May 19th, 2014 at 1:04pm Phemanderac wrote on May 18th, 2014 at 10:48am:
In my experience, all Political Forums have Moderators. Usually their job is to make sure that spammers and other pests are kept at bay. Some Political Forums have Moderators who are heavy handed with the ban key, whether that is due to The Rules or not, who knows. Some Moderators are little "Hitlers". Power goes to their head! I would suggest that some Political Forums don't actually need Moderators to moderate Members "arguments" and so forth. The Members will eventually sort themselves out and those who don't "fit in" will be ostracised and will leave of their own accord. We are mostly Aussies here at OzPol and we all know how Aussies react ... e.g "You bastard" means "I like you" and so forth. As an aside , when I first got the Internet in 1995, and got into the Chat scene, the message way back then was to think of a Chat Room as walking into a Bar where you don't know anyone. Do you usually yell "hey you f-wit, what's up yours" when wandering into somewhere you don't "know" anyone? Of course not. The message was to be polite to strangers. However, although we all are using anonymous IDs some of us have been posting along side each other for years and years and, as happens at work and elsewhere, we find some "personalities" are annoying, irritating and downright obnoxious in some cases. THAT'S LIFE. As your Mother told you when you were a kid, IGNORE the people who try to bully you by calling you names and being obnoxious. If you react they will continue. As we are all adults here (I presume everyone is over 18) we really do NOT need Moderation. We should be able to moderate our own behaviour and butting in to another "cat fight" between Members is a huge NO NO! Do you butt in when you see an argument? Of course you don't. You'd get punched in face, or worse. Stay out of squabbles between other Members. Threatening to be "banned" by a Moderator doesn't seem to work. They just come back, angrier than ever. So, getting back to The Rules. Like Real Life, Rules are there to be broken and some people will always push the envelope, as it were. Some people are LIARS, others never tell a fib, regardless. Some people are bullies, others are holier than thou (but secretly bullies in other areas). LIFE it happens. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by A.G on May 19th, 2014 at 1:32pm mantra wrote on May 19th, 2014 at 12:18pm:
I agree with that.. they do have lives outside of this place and as adults we ought to try to be more tolerant of each other and sidestep idiots! Of course there are persistent trolls and they should be just banned for their efforts until they wake up to themselves. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Neferti on May 19th, 2014 at 1:36pm
C'est la vie
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Neferti on May 19th, 2014 at 1:38pm Neferti wrote on May 19th, 2014 at 1:04pm:
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by A.G on May 19th, 2014 at 1:59pm Neferti wrote on May 19th, 2014 at 1:38pm:
Then they will be banned again I guess, you just can't bow down to bullies..not at the expense of your own happiness...what our mothers told us as kids and what we experience as adults, well sometimes those teachings don't apply.."ignore and bullies go away" ahem...not always and the most persistent bullies just go at the target even harder , silence is seen as weakness to real bullies. ;) ? |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Phemanderac on May 19th, 2014 at 3:55pm
I don't dispute that mods have lives, that is not the issue or, for that matter even an issue.
Further, I acknowledged that it might appear that I am having a go, so be it. Although, I believe it is extremely clear that I am not because I am quite pointedly speaking to; 1) Asking the simple question, what is the purpose of having rules in place (in the first place) - as yet this remains widely unaddressed, ergo 2) I have pointed out that without a clear purpose that is easily defined and articulated, then any implementation etc or rules will ultimately lack consistency and, as an extension integrity. 3) Stayed pretty well focussed on behaviour as opposed to content. I note the example given above regarding swearing. This is an excellent example of my point, friends might swear at each other with friendly jibes (Language for some might be questionable, however, the behaviour is pretty normal), whereas another poster may swear at someone being clearly on the attack/vicious or intimidating (Language for some might be an issue here, however, the behaviour is clearly anti social, bullying and broadly unacceptable...). Depending on how clearly rules are articulated therefore, and the purpose of having rules, it would be fairly straight forward regarding a response. Now, if it is decided that rules are best being content focussed, then issues like language are not longer incontestable - if you swear and that is not acceptable content, then your behaviour around this issue is irrelevant. It has been fairly clearly stated that mods here have to go case by case because of this very issue, I think this demonstrates my case fairly clearly to be frank and honest. Now, I would point out respectfully that I have very deliberately not named names in an effort to make it not personal. When I speak of mods, I speak to the job of being a mod - not the individuals who have taken on the job here. I see it as largely a thankless task, however, it requires a degree of commitment and time, therefore, if commitment and time management are issues for any individual, I would respectfully suggest that moderating is not a role you will do justice to. To all mods here, sorry if that hits a raw nerve, but please understand, that might be an issue for some personal reflection. Further, my suggestions are not to 'bring the house down', I think we have seen more than enough of that kind of posting here over recent weeks/days. Arguably, I would work towards improving the conditions here for all, including the mods. As to a comment up there ^^^ somewhere about me wanting one rule for everyone else and my own for me (or something to that effect), I am particularly curious how you came to that conclusion. I would contend in fact that presently we have an extensive set of rules that do not specifically apply to anyone, well, until they are applied to an individual.... That does not make for an even field to play on really. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Neferti on May 19th, 2014 at 4:12pm
Boring afternoon at work, huh? ;D
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Aussie on May 19th, 2014 at 4:15pm Quote:
Mr Mandrake....that is exactly the issue, not the Rules or whether they are needed. We have them. They are randomly enforced reactively, it seems, and only if a complaint is made, because those who have the free car park are rarely here, all of them. For example ~ see my signature, entered years ago. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mantra on May 19th, 2014 at 4:25pm Phemanderac wrote on May 19th, 2014 at 3:55pm:
There really aren't that many rules here. The main two rules are no personal abuse and non disclosure of a member's personal information. The other rules are general and should be taken as a given - no porn, no illegal content, no spamming and no swearing (there's a word change filter). As language is all we've got to go by here and there are so many members, the moderators would just be flat out monitoring everyone if they wanted to police the rules diligently. There aren't too many complaints about the moderation, nor the rules - possibly because so few people have bothered to look at them. Rules are made so people have clear boundaries and they know how far they can go. They are essential at times because one person's freedom of speech containing anti-social content can destroy the free speech of those around him/her. You have to support the majority if you want a forum to thrive. The rules http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/forum-rules.html |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Aussie on May 19th, 2014 at 4:31pm mantra wrote on May 19th, 2014 at 4:25pm:
Yeas, mantra ~ they are the Rules, but there have, over time, been edicts posted by the G Mods ~ the latest being a ban on hawking other Forums, but for the life of me, I can't find it. Some of those edicts have been stickied. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mantra on May 19th, 2014 at 4:34pm Aussie wrote on May 19th, 2014 at 4:31pm:
It would be like looking for a needle in a haystack. Maybe one day someone will have the motivation to hunt for these ongoing edicts and incorporate them into the rules. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Neferti on May 19th, 2014 at 4:48pm
EVENTUALLY, perhaps people who frequent this Forum will, actually act like ADULTS. ::) Perhaps? Maybe? :-[ When their own kids grow up? When they get OLD? After their cat/dog dies?
LIFE. It is yours, not Tony Abbott's ... he's just the current PM. Wake the bugger up and smell the roses. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by A.G on May 19th, 2014 at 4:51pm
::)
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 19th, 2014 at 5:27pm Phemanderac wrote on May 19th, 2014 at 11:32am:
like it or not phem....its the same one you are asking about.. what would happen if we didnt obey the road rules????.. every now and then someone does disobey them, they usually cause a CRASH...some hideous. can I tell you about yahoo....quite a few on here used yahoo forum and the political board ran hot..some to to point of threats..the mods couldnt cope so they closed it down.. you see some will never obey the rules.. all we can hope for is MOST DO. some yes some do get away with it...like running the red light no accident no fine... but they are few and far between.. now this forum is modded......"well".......very well I think... if the complaint goes direct to a mod instead of a thread to my knowledge it is taken care of.. why or what has happened to those that are banned is a secret I do not know... but it is. a bit like a traffic fine.. unless the person tells you. ::) you have no idea if your complaint is taken on board..I commented on the F.word being used and was told it is mild.. ::) ::) well in this day and age I guess I have to accept that....is it good that its a mild word to use... I am not so sure. you have rules in your home I guess....I know I do...no jumping on furniture is one....but there is always someone who will push the buttons. you do realize if we had a no rule society there goes the police dept.. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by perceptions_now on May 19th, 2014 at 6:06pm
Let me start by saying, that the purpose of Rules, any Rules, is to limit & direct actions, towards desirable outcomes, whatever those outcomes are deemed to be.
If the issues are entirely Public, then the Rules would need to consider what outcomes are acceptable, from the Public perspective, But they would also usually have “some” content directing people towards outcomes which may not currently be widely accepted, But which may be required in the medium to longer term, perhaps from a government perspective. Should the issues involve both Public & Private issues, then most of the above is still going to be in play, But the Private imperatives will also need to be considered, as there would be little point in implementing a range of Rules, where say one of the final outcomes saw the Private enterprise (such as an Internet Forum), go broke, as the Costs of achieving the Public & Private imperatives outweighed the profits made. Effectively, there is almost always a balance to be struck, between Rules, achieving the reasons for those rules, which is generally to deliver services to be enjoyed by the Public, whilst at the same time ensuring that the Private Business survives & achieves a Profit, to enable their services to be delivered in the longer term! I note the following suggested analogy of the Law, to an internet Forum such as this – “If rules are articulated in such a fashion that there is squirm room, loopholes or, as you seem to be suggesting degrees of severity, then, in short, the rules have been ineptly developed or articulated. Or, those implementing/enforcing them are not fully conversant with the overall meaning, or, lack the understanding to apply them equally.” Whilst the analogy has been made, there are many reasons why the analogy is not particularly appropriate, including – 1) That Laws are enforced by people that have spent enormous amounts of time, studying & interpreting the laws, such as Judges. 2) People, such as Judges, are paid a considerable amount of Money, as a reward for their studies & they also spend a great deal of time, in actually doing their job, which they are paid for. Of course, the above does not apply to those Moderators on internet Form, who may simply be there, like I am, to give back a bit to the community, by assisting in allowing an internet Forum to operate, so most members can communicate their ideas to others, without them having to endure some of the worst aspects of Swearing, baiting, trolling and other internet not so “niceties”. Almost all Moderators, unlike Judges etc, would not be paid anything, they would “donate” whatever spare time they have and no matter what some Forum members may think, Moderators may only be available usually for the McDonalds “limited time only”. Anyone expecting more, I would venture to say, is going to be let down, because no matter anyone may or may not say, no one is going to, nor is any one capable of, spending every waking hour sitting at the keyboard, nor even as much time as Judges do, in peering at every post made, particularly on larger forums. And then, there are the myriad of problems that come with interpreting the rules, as I attempted to look at in post – http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1343785142/3#3 So, as I have said previously, I’m not sure if that helps, but they are some more of my views. Oh & finally, there can always be the unplanned eventualities, which sometimes come along, one of which occupied quite a portion of my day, today. Anyway Cheers! |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Neferti on May 19th, 2014 at 6:50pm
Ah, so, there is absolutely no impartiality around here. Moderation is only directed at certain parties. Good Oh. Carry on.
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by perceptions_now on May 19th, 2014 at 7:04pm Neferti wrote on May 19th, 2014 at 6:50pm:
Well, there is an Abraham Lincoln quote, which comes to mind - “You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time.” There again, there are some who "contemplate" that they have "the Wisdom of Solomon" and that they can deliver the correct choice, for every occasion? I can not see me, nor any other person, measuring up to that line of thought, nor level of expertise! Cheers! |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 19th, 2014 at 10:11pm
so the fickle finger of fate strikes again..
you mods are no more perfect then the rest of us.. we have always known that... its good to know you are catching up and are now entering the real world.. its called mistrust. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by El Gatto on May 19th, 2014 at 10:19pm cods wrote on May 19th, 2014 at 5:27pm:
I remember it well. Generally had some good times, and met quite a few long-term 'net-friends' there as well. I think a big problem there was that the mods were not consistent, sometimes as strict as a headmaster, other times not there at all. The shambles the Political board turned into around 2010 was what inspired me to embark on the search which eventually led me here. I suspect you would probably have been another, I'm pretty sure we both landed here around the same time. But I was a bit disappointed when a few who'd caused so much strife on yahoo ended up here too... :( :-/ Still, we all have those who are sent to try us. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by AiA in Atlanta on May 19th, 2014 at 11:40pm
The only problem with rules here is that a handful of members have confused the spirit of a rule with the letter of a rule.
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by perceptions_now on May 19th, 2014 at 11:57pm Kat wrote on May 19th, 2014 at 10:19pm:
Yes, I to was also there and saw the results, when it all fell to pieces and quite a few of the Yahoo's came to OzPol. I have also seen other Forums in the USA particularly & elsewhere, which have fallen into complete shambles, primarily because they weren't moderated at all or they were designated "Free Speech sites", which has been code for doing nothing and allowing the site/forum to become a complete Cesspit & the vast majority of members simply leave! Anyway, much like life in general, these internet forums are likely to be a reflection of life, with all of its imperfections. Or, as the old Clint Eastwood classic put it - The Good, the Bad & the Ugly! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFa1-kciCb4 Cheers! |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mattywisk on May 20th, 2014 at 12:03am
That's rubbish.
Designating a site a free speech site is not code for doing nothing and allowing the site/forum to become a complete Cesspit & the vast majority of members simply leave! That's a bad stereotype of what free speech actually is on a forum. It is allowing "freedom of speech" - rules still apply to them. If everyone is only allowed to think the same way as a moderator does what a joke that is. Or a bunch of moderators for that matter. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by perceptions_now on May 20th, 2014 at 12:12am Mattywisk wrote on May 20th, 2014 at 12:03am:
Really??? That's your opinion, I disagree! Having seen, as I said, some prime examples of Cesspits, both here in OZ & in the US, they are not what I would recommend to anyone! That said, anyone can voice their opinion here, so long as they stay within the accepted guidelines for this forum, But if anyone goes past the accepted guidelines, then they should expect a tap on the shoulder! Cheers! |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mattywisk on May 20th, 2014 at 12:20am
That's your opinion and I disagree so we agree to disagree.
I myself too have seen forums all over the internet trying both styles. It just comes down to effective moderation. Free speech its not an excuse to do anything. It is an allowance of opposing opinions that don't have to tow a party line. As I said we agree to disagree and that is allowed yes. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 20th, 2014 at 10:55am Mattywisk wrote on May 20th, 2014 at 12:20am:
well your version of free speech may differ from someone elses... you may not mind being abused and being called a crackhead..you may find it amusing when others join in and call you nasty names.and claim your mother was a W****.. but others do not... and they demand to be safe no matter where they wander... if a special board was created to panda to those who come on a forum just to talk filth or put someone down... may I suggest you start your own forum and see how well it goes...from what I have read just in the news.. there are many out there who do nothing but spread hate.. you never know you may be on a winner! >:( |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Phemanderac on May 20th, 2014 at 4:53pm
PN, thanks for your thoughts/thoughtful reply.
There are parts to it I would most likely debate with you at length, however, thinking big picture, I don't think that would serve either of us, or more importantly, the board/community to do so publicly. Besides, at the end of the day it would come down to differing opinions I suspect, which is an agree to disagree thing. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Phemanderac on May 20th, 2014 at 4:56pm cods wrote on May 20th, 2014 at 10:55am:
The highlighted bit. I think that is extremely relevant to the single main purpose behind rules. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 20th, 2014 at 5:21pm Phemanderac wrote on May 20th, 2014 at 4:56pm:
sadly some cant see that.. they think their jibes are funny something to laugh off..they do it to make the other person say something equally as bad....so they can throw it back all the time.. they are like vultures waiting to pounce.. I have had it done to me.. and I have never felt so threatened in my life... its a terrible feeling.and to read about someone taking their life because of the vermin that forums like this throw up.makes my blood boil I can tell you. if you have to hide behind and ID to do it then in my book you are coward..of the worst kind.. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mattywisk on May 20th, 2014 at 7:45pm cods wrote on May 20th, 2014 at 10:55am:
May I suggest you read my post again if you must. No need to get smart. I think you are confusing free speech with abusing people. Obviously you have had some traumatic experience on a forum with bad moderation. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mantra on May 20th, 2014 at 8:55pm Instead of whinging about members here - go and do it privately with a message to the moderators. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mattywisk on May 20th, 2014 at 9:02pm ::) |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 20th, 2014 at 9:25pm
mattywisk you sound as if you want the forum closed down.,,,,
is that your real agenda???.. you are making a mountain out of a molehill... its pitiful. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mattywisk on May 20th, 2014 at 9:31pm
Shutting the place down ??? ::) Oh the drama.
Being called something stupid once yeah sure but repetitively is harassing that person. No I don't put up with trolls following me around accusing me of being this or that for no reason. If you don't mind that cods well good for you. Running around calling people pitiful because they don't tolerate it is pitiful in itself. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mantra on May 20th, 2014 at 9:31pm cods wrote on May 20th, 2014 at 9:21pm:
Mattywisk for a newcomer has been quite insulting to some members. I've kept copies of the relevant posts, but have not even considered submitting them to the moderators at this stage. He might settle down. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by perceptions_now on May 20th, 2014 at 10:27pm It may not come as a surprise, that I have just deleted to post, which referred to another forum, due to the language involved in some of the posts. It may also not come as a surprise, when I say that this language is unfit & will not be referred to on this forum! I will shortly, also deleted all the other posts, which referred to that post. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 21st, 2014 at 9:00am Mattywisk wrote on May 20th, 2014 at 9:31pm:
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 21st, 2014 at 9:06am perceptions_now wrote on May 20th, 2014 at 10:27pm:
just a question percy...do you inform the writer their post has gone???....if not for the most part how does anyone know you do not like that type of language.. WHAT language??... I dont read all the posts needless to say.. if the post has been there for some time... it kind of loses the point really the damage is well and truly done..more so if its personal.. these places become like graffiti boards after a while..rub one out and another appears. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mantra on May 21st, 2014 at 9:11am
I told Perceptions to delete whatever posts of mine he needed to. The other member had posted some very nasty links and I had responded in defense.
Perceptions just cleaned the thread up. It was justified. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 21st, 2014 at 9:18am mantra wrote on May 21st, 2014 at 9:11am:
well done mantra.. like I say if you let them they will bring you down to their level its what their intention is... its not worth it..stay away well away.. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mantra on May 21st, 2014 at 9:22am cods wrote on May 21st, 2014 at 9:18am:
They won't bring me down to their level Cods. :) |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 21st, 2014 at 9:30am mantra wrote on May 21st, 2014 at 9:22am:
on ya girl.. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by A.G on May 21st, 2014 at 12:26pm
When I first came across trolls on the www. it was a bit of an eye opener, why would anyone be so unhappy with his/her life that they had to spread the misery so far and wide maybe in the hope they themselves would feel better about their own life.
Trying to keep up with a troll is a bad idea, and now I just poke a bit of fun...because I just don't take them seriously. Once you do, you lose your peace of mind. I will just leave forever rather than be made miserable by a troll. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by A.G on May 21st, 2014 at 12:38pm
Speaking of which, it's very quiet in here today.. :-?
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Mx Horse on May 21st, 2014 at 1:21pm The Mole wrote on May 21st, 2014 at 12:26pm:
Good call: saying that you get trolls in everyday life and the same applies it just takes time in both arenas to work out what is what and who is who ;) ;) Commercial TV for instance.. the commercial media and on and on it goes: it is all part of the world we live in and we pick and choose our path in life. ;D I like that quote by someone on here that any day with a smile in it is a good day :-? :) |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by El Gatto on May 21st, 2014 at 2:32pm BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on May 21st, 2014 at 1:21pm:
'Any day you're above ground and vertical is a good day' isn't a bad one either. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Cliff48 on May 21st, 2014 at 4:10pm Kat wrote on May 21st, 2014 at 2:32pm:
I'm at the stage that if I wake up - its a good day :) |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 21st, 2014 at 5:03pm Cliff48 wrote on May 21st, 2014 at 4:10pm:
have you ever wondered about cats...they sleep 22 hours a day.. eat 1 hour..and party whats left.. not a bad life I will come back as a pampered cat. no stress no money worries no fights with the neighbours..no agro with the govt...bliss. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Neferti on May 21st, 2014 at 6:16pm
Isn't there a Chat area for this chit-chat sort of OFF TOPIC post?
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by A.G on May 21st, 2014 at 6:48pm Neferti wrote on May 21st, 2014 at 6:16pm:
Just friendly banter Neferti.. much more preferable than trolling ,abuse and stalking don't you think? |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 21st, 2014 at 7:04pm Neferti wrote on May 21st, 2014 at 6:16pm:
oh that a bit sour nef...you prefer the biff I presume...lol... |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Neferti on May 21st, 2014 at 7:13pm
NOBODY here is a friend. ;)
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 21st, 2014 at 7:28pm Neferti wrote on May 21st, 2014 at 7:13pm:
I have made a couple of really nice friends thanks...I am the sort of person that doesnt need a whole heap of friends.. just a few who take me for better or worse..without judgement..or name calling...some people get tired of all the nitpicking and spite.. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by A.G on May 21st, 2014 at 7:49pm cods wrote on May 21st, 2014 at 7:28pm:
Very well said Cods.. I would agree with that. I think she secretly likes it here though :-? |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mantra on May 21st, 2014 at 7:54pm cods wrote on May 21st, 2014 at 7:28pm:
I've made a few nice friends online over the years too Cods. I've always enjoyed a friendly message and a chat. You can have your differences at times, but it's not worth holding a grudge for too long. Life's too short. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Neferti on May 21st, 2014 at 8:26pm
.
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mantra on May 21st, 2014 at 8:38pm
You make a lot of inaccurate statements Neferti.
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by A.G on May 21st, 2014 at 9:17pm cods wrote on May 21st, 2014 at 7:28pm:
They sure do ! |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mattywisk on May 22nd, 2014 at 11:02pm Neferti wrote on May 21st, 2014 at 7:13pm:
Technically I suppose they are just people playing online characters where the characters that they are playing become friends and breakup etc etc just like a soap opera. It's like watching desperate housewives half the time except the characters are avatars and the actors much older. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Andrei.Hicks on May 22nd, 2014 at 11:10pm Neferti wrote on May 21st, 2014 at 7:13pm:
I'd probably agree with that. In my opinion if you need to go online to get friends, you must lead a pretty empty life. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Sir Bobby on May 22nd, 2014 at 11:15pm Andrei.Hicks wrote on May 22nd, 2014 at 11:10pm:
Hi Andrei - will you be my friend too? |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mattywisk on May 22nd, 2014 at 11:15pm Andrei.Hicks wrote on May 22nd, 2014 at 11:10pm:
Or be wheelchair bound. ;D Well that might not be too funny in certain circumstances. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Sir Bobby on May 22nd, 2014 at 11:31pm Mattywisk wrote on May 22nd, 2014 at 11:02pm:
Who could accuse me of masquerading as someone I'm not? |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mattywisk on May 22nd, 2014 at 11:54pm
Bobby can you turn down the light a bit I am having trouble reading my screen ;D
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Sir Bobby on May 23rd, 2014 at 12:08am Mattywisk wrote on May 22nd, 2014 at 11:54pm:
I thought that was funny. ;D |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by ian on May 23rd, 2014 at 12:11am Neferti wrote on May 21st, 2014 at 7:13pm:
gasp! shock! horror! |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mattywisk on May 23rd, 2014 at 12:12am Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2014 at 12:08am:
I'm dead serious actually here I am sitting here with Ray-Ban's on. 8-) |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Sir Bobby on May 23rd, 2014 at 12:25am Mattywisk wrote on May 23rd, 2014 at 12:12am:
May I suggest that you reduce the brightness of your screen? forgiven namaste |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mantra on May 23rd, 2014 at 5:13am Andrei.Hicks wrote on May 22nd, 2014 at 11:10pm:
We're talking about online friends - not real life best buddies, although obviously online meets offline at times - and I'm not just talking about forums. Why do so many people spend so much time online if they don't want that communication with other people? Some you get on with - others you don't, but occasionally you come across people that you have something in common with and enjoy communication that isn't in the public view. Yes of course sensible people hide their identity online publicly for safety reasons, but not everyone is a serial killer. Why is Facebook so popular? |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Andrei.Hicks on May 24th, 2014 at 8:02pm Mattywisk wrote on May 23rd, 2014 at 12:12am:
Ray bans are a tad 1985 aren't they?? |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 25th, 2014 at 8:41am mantra wrote on May 23rd, 2014 at 5:13am:
look at those that find true love mantra??..it happens...I have been getting these amazing messages on skype looking for friendship with lovely lady...usually from Generals in the American Marines...so I decided to google said General..and low and behold theres the list of scammers it was so interesting reading what they get up too...you can imagine a General wanting to meet people on a internet forum cant you??...the General btw is real.. no ones profile is safe if you put a pic up on facebook.. they will steal it...plus all your personal information if they can use it..so dont be too trusting. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by freediver on May 25th, 2014 at 10:01am
The point of the rules is to enable political debate. I see three main threats, and three main sets of rules.
1) Personal abuse. This has a tendency to take over and replace the political debate, and drive people away. Hence the rules against personal abuse. 2) Partisan vs issue-based debates. The partisan debates have a tendency to derail the issue-based debates. That is why I separate them as much as possible. There needs to be a place for people to discuss issues without the partisan cheerleaders making it all about Tony Abbott or Julia Gilllard. The partisan cheerleaders tend to be either more motivated or more repetitive. 3) Diversity in moderation. Different people have different tolerance levels for bitching. That is why we have the member run boards, so that people can set higher standards and cater for different tolerance levels. You are right that enforcement is ad-hoc. The solution to this is for you is to give me enough money to pay someone to do a better job. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Phemanderac on May 25th, 2014 at 10:09am freediver wrote on May 25th, 2014 at 10:01am:
Well, as I see it, there is pretty much one purpose for rules regardless of the subject/community etc. Rules are intended to make an environment as safe as possible. If viewed that way they become pretty simple to set up, implement and enforce. One solution might be for me to give you money...However, given it is YOUR sight, that is not a very realistic solution is it. The establishment, implementation and enforcement of rules speaks volumes to the integrity of the place. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by freediver on May 25th, 2014 at 10:16am
Behind all this is a fundamental paradox to online forums - unrestrained debate is actually a barrier to open, robust debate.
Quote:
I don't really see that as an issue, except for the privacy rules (don't post personal info). You are safe hiding behind a keyboard. I am not here to protect people's feelings from getting hurt. Quote:
Not sure what difference it makes. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by freediver on May 25th, 2014 at 10:46am
I want people to be free to voice opinions on whatever issues they want without censorship. I want robust debate of the issues, as opposed to personal bitchfests. That is, other members are not an "issue" for debate.
From page 1: Quote:
For the rules to work, we do not need people to agree with the rules or the reason for having them. They just need to follow them. Obviously it would help if everyone is "on board", but ultimately this is a democracy. People will vote with their feet. Quote:
They need to follow them. That is all. I don't care how unfair they think it is. People need to harden up, rather than expecting us to babysit them. Quote:
It does open up the debate and we would not be able to stop it happening if suspensions were made public. Your suggestion would just means it happens in other threads. Quote:
The rules are here: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/forum-rules.html There is a link at the top of the page, in bold. Quote:
Are you suggesting we get lawyers involved in petty squabbles? Dumb idea. Quote:
Giving warnings is part of articulating the rules, and a good option for borderline infringements, but I agree that it has it's limitations. They are only as good as the follow-through. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 25th, 2014 at 10:46am
phem I was under the impression this thread was about rules in general not specifically this forum..
in which case money would never be an issue.. good manners wouldnt go astray ...any rules means you and me..if we obeyed them all I guess the world would be boring...but.. we shouldnt have to pay people to watch people on a forum like this...I would like to think we are all adults...and shouldnt need chastising imagine b eing banned because you cannot control yourself..what the|!!! :o |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 25th, 2014 at 10:52am
FD tell me if a mod warns someone do all the other mods become aware of said warning?..
seems to me what upsets one mod would not bother another... when it comes to action and that might cause confusion.. a b it like judges is it a wrist slap or the slammer. depends who you get. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by freediver on May 25th, 2014 at 11:02am cods wrote on May 25th, 2014 at 10:52am:
The other mods become aware of it if the mod in question tells them or they see it made publicly. I have no sympathy for people who are confused by the rules. We are not going to give you certainty as to when the rules are enforced, so there is no point asking for it. The rules are easy enough to follow, so just follow them and get on with it. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 25th, 2014 at 11:48am freediver wrote on May 25th, 2014 at 11:02am:
ta.. just look at the speeding tickets people complain about.. all they do is break the rules... maybe when someone is banned you should charge them to be allowed back on...like a fine.. well it may work.for a little while. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by skippy. on May 25th, 2014 at 2:52pm
Just don't do anything I wouldn't do cods and you'll be fine. ;D
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Andrei.Hicks on May 25th, 2014 at 4:13pm skippy. wrote on May 25th, 2014 at 2:52pm:
To be fair, thats not half bad advice 95% of the time. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 25th, 2014 at 4:31pm skippy. wrote on May 25th, 2014 at 2:52pm:
havent been banned :P so there. everyone knows I am perfict. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by perceptions_now on May 25th, 2014 at 7:34pm freediver wrote on May 25th, 2014 at 10:46am:
They need to follow them. That is all. I don't care how unfair they think it is. People need to harden up, rather than expecting us to babysit them. Quote:
It does open up the debate and we would not be able to stop it happening if suspensions were made public. Your suggestion would just means it happens in other threads. Quote:
The rules are here: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/forum-rules.html There is a link at the top of the page, in bold. Quote:
Are you suggesting we get lawyers involved in petty squabbles? Dumb idea. Quote:
Giving warnings is part of articulating the rules, and a good option for borderline infringements, but I agree that it has it's limitations. They are only as good as the follow-through.[/quote] Voicing opinions is just fine, But everything has limits! So, whether you call it Censorship or Forum Rules, Yes there are limits and members posts need to reflect those limits! Cheers! Oh & robust debates is good, Bitchfests are bad! |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by mattywisk on May 25th, 2014 at 9:06pm Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2014 at 12:25am:
No problems I thought it was your light now I know its just the monitor. Saves me reading all those threads I guess about flying pyramids when I want to know how to turn it up or down. I can just follow the menu on the screen. Thanks again. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Frances on May 26th, 2014 at 2:21pm cods wrote on May 25th, 2014 at 11:48am:
Now there's an idea that would decimate the forum's membership..... |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Neferti on May 26th, 2014 at 2:37pm Frances wrote on May 26th, 2014 at 2:21pm:
WHY would you say such an idiotic thing as that? Do you have any idea who posts here? |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Frances on May 26th, 2014 at 2:54pm Neferti wrote on May 26th, 2014 at 2:37pm:
I've been here for almost three years. I think I have a bit of an idea by now.... |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Katut on May 26th, 2014 at 3:12pm Neferti wrote on May 26th, 2014 at 2:37pm:
Neferti is a troll Frances, everyone knows that, don't worry about her. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Frances on May 26th, 2014 at 3:14pm Katut wrote on May 26th, 2014 at 3:12pm:
Says someone with only one post to their name. Who are you really? |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Katut on May 26th, 2014 at 3:15pm Frances wrote on May 26th, 2014 at 3:14pm:
The ghost of Christmas past . |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Phemanderac on May 26th, 2014 at 6:13pm freediver wrote on May 25th, 2014 at 10:16am:
You are physically safe perhaps. Feeling safe though encompasses far more than the physical safety aspect. I would be astounded if someone as articulate and well read as you has no insight into the issues of cyber bullying that are quite significant in our modern world. It is concerning that you do not consider this. freediver wrote on May 25th, 2014 at 10:16am:
Hmm, let me be very clear then. This site clearly has advertising, now I realise that might be a free service you offer to the businesses advertising, however, I suspect it might also afford the board some income. Further, it is your site, you want me to give you money to fix an issue that I raise on your feedback board, and you don't see how that might be an issue. Tell ya what, I will give you ten bucks, you give me the site and I will show you how easy it is to fix. However, I raise the issue as a talking point, because it seemed evident to me that some may want to have the debate. It now seems evident though that; a) Most don't give a toss, at least until they end up in someone's firing line. b) The status quo seems to be altogether happy with a rule set up that punishes and blames victims rather than address perpetrators. My money won't fix your issue... I trust that is a bit clearer to you. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Phemanderac on May 26th, 2014 at 6:27pm freediver wrote on May 25th, 2014 at 10:46am:
Actually mate, the way behaviour works you do need some form of agreement or you are going to always be "enforcing" or be empty. That pretty basic behavioural stuff. Democracy's also has rules apparently. Oh, and you may have missed it, but people have been voting with their feet, even one of your mods (from all accounts a fairly popular one). freediver wrote on May 25th, 2014 at 10:46am:
Yeah, I did say it is your site so, I guess your rules. Of course, all that stuff about a "democracy" is smoke and mirrors then. As to hardening up, the problem is, when people do harden up and "bite back" as it were, they then have the rules applied. What you are quite diligently setting up then is a cyber bully haven where only the victims get punished. It speaks volumes about integrity. I would say you need to smarten up, not them harden up. I say to you quite simply, the place needs rules, the rules do not need to be rocket science and they need to be behaviour focussed and not necessarily content (in all instances) focussed. Finally, the rules do need to be monitored, enforced and reviewed from time to time. Make people feel safe and they will debate robustly, leave them feeling unsafe and they will cop abuse (which is not robust, nor is it debate) until they snap. IF they contact moderators, it somehow becomes "known" in select instances and the victim is further harassed. IF they respond after this, they get a holiday. Tell me that isn't how it works and I will tell you that you lie. freediver wrote on May 25th, 2014 at 10:46am:
No, you are either dead wrong or deliberately lying. The minute mods spot the new thread they nuke and boot any and all who participate in it if that is absolutely necessary. Oh, and news flash, judging from the past few weeks stuff at least, it is not only happening in other threads, it also is happening in another forum. Now what is the common link there? freediver wrote on May 25th, 2014 at 10:46am:
Are you suggesting we get lawyers involved in petty squabbles? Dumb idea. [/quote] So, you ask a question and without waiting for an answer, decide on the answer and proclaim "dumb idea".... I dunno mate, that would seem to be pretty dumb conclusion drawing. Are you suggesting that the only recourse after the Moderators is straight to lawyers? freediver wrote on May 25th, 2014 at 10:46am:
No such thing as borderline if your rules are well articulated and put in place for the right purpose. Follow through is an issue yes. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by freediver on May 26th, 2014 at 7:37pm Quote:
As far as I am concerned, they only apply when it is linked to someone's real identity - eg high school kids trashing each other's facebook pages. People may feel just as upset about their OzPolitic ID being dumped on. They can get over it. Quote:
Just because I disagree with you does not mean I haven't considered it. That is the only way online politics forums can function. The mods are not here to babysit. Quote:
Not enough to pay someone to moderate. Quote:
You see it as an issue. You want it fixed. That is how you can make it happen. The offer is open to anyone else who cares that much. Quote:
No thanks. Quote:
The rules don't recognise victimhood status. A big part of the problem mods face is people claiming victimhood status and thinking this gives them some kind of right to break the rules. If you see a breach of the rules, report it. You will not be punished for this. Quote:
This site is so popular because it works. Quote:
That doesn't make any sense. Biting back is a sign of weakness. Harden up = get over it and move on. Quote:
Have you discovered the rules yet? Or do you just like stating the obvious? Quote:
It becomes known because the people announce that they have dobbed someone in. Quote:
It works like this. If you see a breach, report it. Then get over it. If you bite back, you will get banned also, and rightly so. I am not here to babysit your bitchfests and I have no interest in figuring out who started it. If you cannot control yourself, you do not belong here. Quote:
I speak from experience over many sites and forums. The worst thing you can do is announce people's suspensions. Quote:
There are several problems with this. 1) mods do not spot it straight away (we are not babysitters) 2) People simply have the same bitchfest in more subtle ways 3. it just moves the discussion about bans to where you cannot moderate it, but the bitching stays here. If someone wants to discuss their ban in public, they are welcome to. Quote:
It is happening across half a dozen or so websites run by different people. I do not control the internet, just my tiny patch of it. I cannot make you safe and it would be misleading for me to make any claims otherwise. Quote:
I cannot imagine any interpretation of your suggestion that is not stupid. But please, enlighten me. Quote:
There is always borderline and there is always a dedicated group of drama queens devoted to seeking it out. I can only imagine that your claim stems from no genuine experience modding online forums. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Phemanderac on May 29th, 2014 at 10:02am
Well mate, thank you for articulating your justification as to your aspirations for mediocrity.
The bottom line is, it is your board so it is your way or the highway. So much therefore, for the bullshit about being democratic. As to the boards supposed success, that is entirely subjective. Anyway, it is clear that this is not debatable, at least to any logical purpose. I would note the number of posters, particularly the fairly recent three stooges who have instigated, promulgated and driven the "flame wars" that have plagued the place over recent weeks have all, at various points stated quite clearly that they are "defending" themselves. By any standard, that would be that weakness that you speak of, you know, "biting back". Even that rule therefore, would appear to be utter garbage. Oh, wait, I know you will say no one PM'd you about it. So in effect, you are saying that mods can respond reactively (not proactively), which by any standard of logic would actually equate to "biting back" i.e. responding... Yet, the membership base face a ban for doing exactly that..... The irony regarding your "victimhood" rubbish is that, if someone feels the need to "defend" themselves, that would indicate some feeling of having been attacked... i.e. that they are a victim. Your personal phobias about the word "victim" really should not influence fair and unbiased moderation/administration. Yes, I read the rules, a few times. I am not sure if you were trying to make some point by asking, however, I would make the point that the rules do not in anyway reflect what goes on in the place. That would be a failure in both how they are articulated and how they are applied/enforced. I have no expectation that you will either grasp this or agree with it, let's face it, that would rather require some serious self reflection. Something not particularly evident. However, I would draw your attention to the very rule in question. "Personal criticism Do not post personal criticism of other members. Do not respond to personal criticism of yourself or other members. This is the biggest problem on OzPolitic. Too many members are easily baited into off-topic personal exchanges. If you participate in any kind of flame war you will be suspended, regardless of who started it or who you think ‘deserved it’. " I suspect this is the main one in question here. So, this is, in effect two separate rules, neither of which are actually applied proactively. Do not post personal criticism would, at face value appear fairly clear cut. Of course, it becomes less clear cut with the paragraph that follow speaking directly to responding to personal criticism. Clearly, it sets up a system whereby, the individual can be judged rather than the action. People who are criticised certainly do make choices. That much is understood. I guess there was some intent that this rule would minimise conflict in the place, to be fair, but to be equally fair, it is obviously flawed. Your default position is to blame the membership... LOL. You are not a baby sitter after all, yet, that is or at least would seem to be exactly what is required. What I see happen quite clearly with this set up is that the personal criticism pretty much goes along with impunity. Then someone responds. This then sets up the scenario whereby, basically the mod/admin can pick and choose who they implement the rules on. That is the problem with consistency. Bottom line, it is either unacceptable to post personal criticism or it isn't. IF you or any of your "team" cannot work out what is personal criticism and what isn't then perhaps you or your team need to reconsider your position. Of course, you don't have to, I get that, you own the place. As to responding to personal criticism, it is clearly unrealistic to expect that the majority of people will not bite back as it were. This "weakness" as you put it, is human behaviour. I would suggest the real "weakness" here is the duplicitous articulation of rules and, the hidden agenda of those enforcing them. Of course, that is just me disagreeing with your opinion. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on May 29th, 2014 at 10:16am
I think you have to take into account..
we are all only responsible for our own behavior sad but true.. we cannot stop anyone from making personal attacks..rude unfair ones in particular. we can only stop our own retaliation... otherwise two wrongs then do not make a right.. we tend to read rules as applying to someone else not so much ourselves....as we always see our own actions as justified.... he said it first... ::) ::) childish but then so many on here are childish.. if a mod sees it as one being as bad as the other....then thats the way we have to suck it up...its no different at the footy one sees it one way and others another.. but action has to be taken...it will always upset someone no matter what.. some are more unreasonable than others phem..some are less demanding... I dont know what the mods or FD puts up with..and I guess neither do you... I only see life on here from the few boards I go into...most I havent even opened to see what goes on.... but from some of the behavior more so in the past it was very very childish.....and yes sometimes I joined in... :D what was I thinking??...its human nature.. deal with it mate...nothing is perfect even the rules but they are better than none at all...think about those traffic lights....how annoying they can be,.... do we ever think about life without them?? of course we dont.. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Rhet-Oracle on May 29th, 2014 at 10:22am
The purpose of a rule is not what some here seem to think; an excuse to whinge and complain and seek to threaten or have members banned because they don't agree that their response which is often a result of their goading and indirect abuse. Quite a number of members like to threaten to "report".
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by freediver on May 29th, 2014 at 1:18pm Quote:
I don't think being a babysitter for a bunch of children who cannot control themselves online is an aspiration. My aspiration is for people to learn self control and for this to become part of the culture here. Quote:
Whose BS would that be? Quote:
So this debate doesn't exist? Not being able to change my mind is not a limitation placed on the debate, nor even on your powers of persuasion. Quote:
If you respond to personal insults with personal insults, you will be banned. Send the mods a PM instead. This is a good rule. Quote:
It doesn't. I merely said that victimhood is no excuse. Labelling one party the victim and thus excusing rule breaking on their part is in fact taking sides. Quote:
It is the same rule. I am just trying to drive home the point that there are no excuses and their is no point claiming victimhood. Self control is expected from all. Quote:
I have no idea why that confuses you. Quote:
You have it backwards. The action is judged. Assigning victimhood is judging the individual. Quote:
The position is that we suspend people who break the rules and don't accept victimhood as an excuse. Quote:
We can only act on what we see. That is not picking and choosing. Quote:
I have found that people are capable of learning very quickly, if given the right incentives. 200 years ago people may have claimed it is unrealistic to expect a man not to kill someone who insults them. This is not a reflection of human behaviour, but of culture. It is the culture I am trying to change. Quote:
How is it duplicitous? You seem to be seeing things that are not actually there, then accusing me of lying by not putting them there for you to see. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Black Orchid on May 29th, 2014 at 4:24pm
People interpret rules differently but, with the absence of any, greater chaos would ensue.
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Phemanderac on Jun 4th, 2014 at 4:15pm
Well it sure as hell seems that the self control theory isa tad naive/optomistic/lacking insight.
A cursory review of the boards would seem to suggest a clicky little flamewar merrily skipping accross a number of boards. No complaint here (hardly seems a point) , just an observation. I am curious if the term "I am going to defend myself" equates to mitigation (f the rules. I have seen it pop up a few times by a range of posters is all. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by freediver on Jun 4th, 2014 at 7:48pm
"Defending yourself" is no excuse for breaking the rules.
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Knight Errant Sir Grappler on Jun 16th, 2014 at 10:40pm
Why - to be broken,of course.
It depends on the kind of rules - for instance you can outlaw mass murder but not economic activity that results in mass death or increased death and illness due to poverty of some. Rules are menat to be both a guide in life and something to be tested. Why - our Illustrious Prim Monster right now is testing the rules - and testing the waters - to see how much of that sh1t floating in the sewer of politics the ordinary person will take before spitting it out. I've said for a long, long time that politicians are like children - in more way than one, but particularly in this way - they will test their limits and will gleefully tap-dance all the way to the bank when they sneak one over on us - then come back and try it again. That is why we need to keep them on a very tight leash. Same as managers of companies and the like. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Dame Pansi on Jun 21st, 2014 at 6:27am Good work moderator Andrei Hicks, you cleaned up the mess made in the wee hours by our inebriated friend sprintcyclist, before anyone saw it. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jun 21st, 2014 at 6:46am
Sprint will not feel in the cold light of day, those posts were his finest work.
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Sir Bobby on Jun 21st, 2014 at 6:48am Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 21st, 2014 at 6:46am:
Hi Andrei, thanks for deleting those repetitive threads. Sprint is unbalanced. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Knight Errant Sir Grappler on Jun 21st, 2014 at 12:11pm Cliff48 wrote on May 18th, 2014 at 11:35am:
If you are of a certain bent here as in society - you tell them to suck it up and that's the way things are.... Or you tell them change is long overdue and as their grand-parent you are prepared to lay down your life for their better future..... |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Knight Errant Sir Grappler on Jun 21st, 2014 at 12:14pm Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jun 21st, 2014 at 6:27am:
Damn - I would have loved to see that. Can we have a forum where all the banned/banished stuff goes? Sort of a gloves are off arena where people can slug it out... even in such things there can be grains of pure gold.... Andrei is a very odd person - seems to be quite good in some ways, but kinda lost in others... you need to get out of rhetoric and dogma, A... there's a better person awaiting you... |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by Dame Pansi on Jun 21st, 2014 at 1:36pm Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Jun 21st, 2014 at 12:14pm:
I still wonder if it was you or I that went a lit bit crazy on the boards overnight, if Andrei would have ignored it.....left it up as a sort of punishment for lefties. Basically it went like I love Julie Bishop......open the thread and it said something like....I really do, there was a separate thread for every Lib/Nat party member. The whole front page was covered in it, I had a chuckle though. I should have screen shot it....never mind. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by cods on Jun 21st, 2014 at 2:13pm
and I thought you meant the one about the PA>>and AiA leaving..all the weirdos on that I see and andrei did the right thing..snip snip..
why do some want to talk about other forums that no one here is interested in...beats me!.. |
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Title: Re: What is the purpose of rules? Post by life_goes_on on Jun 22nd, 2014 at 11:48am Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 21st, 2014 at 6:46am:
But through them, he finally confirmed that he's a screaming queer. Not that there's anything wrong with that. |
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