Quote:

The angel of the Lord also said to her: “You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard of your misery. He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.”

Genesis 16:11,12


muslims claim they descend from Ishmael.

I don't suppose people who are being brainwashed are told of this quote ?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 19^th, 2014 at 2:57pm:

Quote: The angel of the Lord also said to her: “You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard of your misery. He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.” Genesis 16:11,12 muslims claim they descend from Ishmael. I don't suppose people who are being brainwashed are told of this quote ?

Muslims? :-?

Actually muslims claim they descend from Adam and Eve.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2014 at 3:27pm:

Actually muslims claim they descend from Adam and Eve.

Yes, moslems.

And me too.

But the moslem has determined that i must be enslaved or murdered - by the moslem.

This is lawful and required - according to ISLAMIC scripture.

9.29



Somewhere, moslems have 'left the path'.

'It was written.'

Genesis 16:11
And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
12  And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.








+++




The phonetic word alah, has the meaning, 'to curse'.




Isra-el

Isra-EL = = a prince with God.


Allah = = A curse, upon mankind.





Daniel:9:11:
Yea, all Israel 3478 have transgressed 5674-1 thy law, 8451 even by departing, 5493-2 that they might not obey 8085-2 thy voice; 6963 therefore the curse 423 is poured 5413-4 upon us, and the oath 7621 that [is] written 3789-7 in the law 8451 of Moses 4872 the servant 5650 of God, 430 because we have sinned 2398-1 against him.



Quote:

Strong's Hebrew 423  'alah  aw-law' from 422; an imprecation:--curse, cursing, execration, oath, swearing.

Dictionary;
execrate = =
1 feel or express great loathing for.
2 archaic curse; swear.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H423&version=KJV


The CURSE.

The CURSE.

The CURSE.

The alah.




Google;
alah bible strongs hebrew 423

---

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2014 at 3:27pm:

Actually muslims claim they descend from Adam and Eve.

And also Ishmael?

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 7:02pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 22nd, 2014 at 3:27pm: Actually muslims claim they descend from Adam and Eve. And also Ishmael?

No, hence my first post here. Arabs claim descent from Ishmael, not Muslims... Are all Muslims Arab? All Arabs Muslim? I thought you all got it and that's why you didn't respond. Obviously not. :-?

Did they make this claim before Muhammed?

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 7:17pm:

Did they make this claim before Muhammed?

You tell me.

Re: Muslim descent from Ishmael. Well? Are you trying to go off track, divert? Are you just as wrong as wrong as Sprint was when he first said it? You will notice he got the hint or would have responded to me.

What am I wrong about? And why is it irrelevant? Obviously Islam is not a race, but it would not surprise me if Muhammed claimed that he and his early co-religionists descended from a Biblical figure. He basically rewrote Judaism and Christianity to support his claims about Islam, including a lot of historical claims.

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 7:46pm:

What am I wrong about? And why is it irrelevant? Obviously Islam is not a race, but it would not surprise me if Muhammed claimed that he and his early co-religionists descended from a Biblical figure. He basically rewrote Judaism and Christianity to support his claims about Islam, including a lot of historical claims.

Well, if you remember what you responded to, you are trying to make it something else now. You are wrong about Muslims being descended from Ishmael. That was your claim, not mine.


freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 7:02pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 22nd, 2014 at 3:27pm: Actually muslims claim they descend from Adam and Eve. And also Ishmael?

See?

Now if I was Grendel I would demand and apology, I'm not so just realise where you went wrong and continue on not making the same mistake.

Quote:

Well, if you remember what you responded to and how you see what I said, you are trying to make it something else now.

Would you prefer me to start a new thread with a slightly different title? Is this moving too fast for you? Or are you just desperate to avoid clarifying?


Quote:

You are wrong about Muslims being descended from Ishmael. That was your claim, not mine.

What claim did I make that is wrong?


Quote:

See?

I think you are having trouble seeing. Do you know what question marks are for?

Arabs do come from Ishmael.

God gave Ishmael blessings and sent him east where he obtained Canaanite wives and thus began the arab 'race'.

The problem is that jews claim they're from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and that they're the descendants of the Israelites. They're not!

Todays jews are the descendants of Esau, Jacobs brother.

Esau also went off and married Canaanite women and became the patriarch of the Edomites.

Todays jews are the descendants of the Edomites and it even says in their Judaica Encyclopaedia that "World Jewry is Edom."

The true descendants of the Ancient Israelites are the Anglo-Saxon-Celtic-Germanic and Scandinavian peoples of Europe, many of whom came from the Pass of Israel(Dariell Pass) in the Caucasus Mountains when they escaped their Assyrian captivity in about 720BC. This is outlined in the Apocrypha from 13:40 Esdras 2.

The term Saxon comes from the term "Isaacs Sons."

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 8:09pm:

Quote: Well, if you remember what you responded to and how you see what I said, you are trying to make it something else now. Would you prefer me to start a new thread with a slightly different title? Is this moving too fast for you? Or are you just desperate to avoid clarifying? [quote]You are wrong about Muslims being descended from Ishmael. That was your claim, not mine.

What claim did I make that is wrong?


Quote:

See?

I think you are having trouble seeing. Do you know what question marks are for? [/quote]

C'mon diver, you know how you meant the question, as could anyone that reads the thread in context. Have it your way if you like though. Consider your question answered. "And also Ishmael?" No. ::)

i dont mind arabs, good horses, great stamina, not real bright.
i think they are decended from godolphin

Taipan wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 8:39pm:

Arabs do come from Ishmael. God gave Ishmael blessings and sent him east where he obtained Canaanite wives and thus began the arab 'race'. The problem is that jews claim they're from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and that they're the descendants of the Israelites. They're not! Todays jews are the descendants of Esau, Jacobs brother. Esau also went off and married Canaanite women and became the patriarch of the Edomites. Todays jews are the descendants of the Edomites and it even says in their Judaica Encyclopaedia that "World Jewry is Edom." The true descendants of the Ancient Israelites are the Anglo-Saxon-Celtic-Germanic and Scandinavian peoples of Europe, many of whom came from the Pass of Israel(Dariell Pass) in the Caucasus Mountains when they escaped their Assyrian captivity in about 720BC. This is outlined in the Apocrypha from 13:40 Esdras 2. The term Saxon comes from the term "Isaacs Sons."

OMG! Really? So we real Jews should wipe out the imposter Jews then. How dare they steal our heritage! And our Holy Land! And our media! And our banks! Hang 'em all from Odin's Holy Oak.

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 7:02pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 22nd, 2014 at 3:27pm: Actually muslims claim they descend from Adam and Eve. And also Ishmael?

That doesn't even make sense. Muslims believe that Adam was the first muslim - so how can muslims "descend" from Ishmael?

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 7:46pm:

What am I wrong about? And why is it irrelevant? Obviously Islam is not a race.

Now now, FD, no need to defend yourself here. Some of your best friends are Muslims. You have nothing against the bearded tinted invaders. You’re not racist.

You believe in Freeedom, and why not? You’re perfectly within your rights to criticize those inferior to yourself. After all, they bring down the tone of the neighbourhood.

It has nothing to do with race, it’s all about our superior culture. If we don’t stop them over there, they’ll end up here. No one wants them. It’s not personal.

We are a demokracy, after all. If we don’t defend our superior race, who will?

Quote:

C'mon diver, you know how you meant the question

As a question perhaps? I honestly have no awareness of this issue. I'm just trying, apparently in vain, to get a straight answer. Such hostility to getting the basic facts straight always makes me suspicious. For some reason there are usually Muslims involved.


Quote:

Consider your question answered. "And also Ishmael?" No.

Yes I think we have already established that Islam is not a race. Is this moving too fast for you?


Quote:

That doesn't even make sense. Muslims believe that Adam was the first muslim - so how can muslims "descend" from Ishmael?

Actually, multiple common ancestors is not impossible, or even unlikely. In any case, thanks for answering the first question again. Have you noticed where the discussion has gone since then? I realise setanta has taken it back to the beginning, but you don't have to follow him round in circles.

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 9:47pm:

Quote: C'mon diver, you know how you meant the question As a question perhaps? I honestly have no awareness of this issue. I'm just trying, apparently in vain, to get a straight answer. Such hostility to getting the basic facts straight always makes me suspicious. For some reason there are usually Muslims involved..

That’s right, FD. Your interest here is in Old Testament prophets.

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 9:47pm:

Quote: C'mon diver, you know how you meant the question As a question perhaps? I honestly have no awareness of this issue. I'm just trying, apparently in vain, to get a straight answer. Such hostility to getting the basic facts straight always makes me suspicious. For some reason there are usually Muslims involved. [quote]Consider your question answered. "And also Ishmael?" No.

Yes I think we have already established that Islam is not a race. Is this moving too fast for you?

[/quote]

The damned thread is based on the "children of Ishmael" having a "je ne sais quoi" that predicts their violent donkey like behaviour, their nature, based on the bible no less for a credible source! ::)

What is your point and contribution? You were not just "asking a question".

Quote:

That’s right, FD. Your interest here is in Old Testament prophets.

'An ass of a man' is not how they usually describe prophets. Except for one, of course.


Quote:

The damned thread is based on the "children of Ishmael" having a "je ne sais quoi" that predicts their violent donkey like behaviour, their nature, based on the bible no less for a credible source!

English please.


Quote:

You were not just "asking a question".

Sometimes a question is just a question. What is it about this one that irritates you so?

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 9:59pm:

'An ass of a man' is not how they usually describe prophets. Except for one, of course.

Who claims Ishmael was a prophet? You're an ass of a man but no-one would consider you a prophet.

This is all moving too quickly for you, isn't it?

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 10:04pm:

This is all moving too quickly for you, isn't it?

I answered your asinine question a second time that was answered in my first reply in this thread, how about you tell me how you come to your conclusion. I have made one claim, and it's correct, Muslims are not descendants of Ishmael. Well I may have claimed you were an ass above but that is demonstrably true. ::)

We are up to two pages now, so I think it is safe for question number two. Let me know if you have forgotten what we were talking about the first time I asked.


freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 7:17pm:

Did they make this claim before Muhammed?

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 10:14pm:

We are up to two pages now, so I think it is safe for question number two. Let me know if you have forgotten what we were talking about the first time I asked. freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 7:17pm: Did they make this claim before Muhammed?

I told you, you tell me. Did they? ::)

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 10:14pm:

We are up to two pages now, so I think it is safe for question number two. Let me know if you have forgotten what we were talking about the first time I asked. freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 7:17pm: Did they make this claim before Muhammed?

Sometimes a question is just a question.

Karnal wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 10:20pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 10:14pm: We are up to two pages now, so I think it is safe for question number two. Let me know if you have forgotten what we were talking about the first time I asked. freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 7:17pm: Did they make this claim before Muhammed? Sometimes a question is just a question.

And sometimes it's a picture, painted with variations between prejudice and righteousness, asked as a question.

Setanta wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 10:24pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 10:20pm: freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 10:14pm: We are up to two pages now, so I think it is safe for question number two. Let me know if you have forgotten what we were talking about the first time I asked. freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 7:17pm: Did they make this claim before Muhammed? Sometimes a question is just a question. And sometimes it's a picture, painted with variations between prejudice and righteousness, asked as a question.

FD wouldn’t do that, shurely.

He believes in Freeedom.

Karnal wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 11:05pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 10:24pm: Karnal wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 10:20pm: freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 10:14pm: We are up to two pages now, so I think it is safe for question number two. Let me know if you have forgotten what we were talking about the first time I asked. freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 7:17pm: Did they make this claim before Muhammed? Sometimes a question is just a question. And sometimes it's a picture, painted with variations between prejudice and righteousness, asked as a question. FD wouldn’t do that, shurely. He believes in Freeedom.

No, no , no. It's meeeedom. He has a speech, you know... thing.

Setanta wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 11:16pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 11:05pm: Setanta wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 10:24pm: Karnal wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 10:20pm: freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 10:14pm: We are up to two pages now, so I think it is safe for question number two. Let me know if you have forgotten what we were talking about the first time I asked. freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 7:17pm: Did they make this claim before Muhammed? Sometimes a question is just a question. And sometimes it's a picture, painted with variations between prejudice and righteousness, asked as a question. FD wouldn’t do that, shurely. He believes in Freeedom. No, no , no. It's meeeedom. He has a speech, you know... thing.

I see. That must be why he asks so many questions.

Setanta, welcome to debating FD.

Spare a thought for me - I have to put up with this sort of sh!t almost every day.

Gandalf gets jealous if I pay too much attention to the apologists rather than to him.

Did Muhammed claim that he and his fellow Arabs were descended from this proverbial ass-man?

Answer the question, G. FD’s onto something here.

freediver wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 1:29pm:

Gandalf gets jealous if I pay too much attention to the apologists rather than to him. Did Muhammed claim that he and his fellow Arabs were descended from this proverbial ass-man?

He probably just accepted that they were, rather than "claim" anything.


Quote:

The book of Jubilees places the location and identity of the Ishmaelites as the Arab peoples residing in Arab territories. This is the current view for the majority of the Christian, Islamic and Jewish faiths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael


Quote:

Historical records of the Ishmaelites[edit] Assyrian and Babylonian Royal Inscriptions and North Arabian inscriptions from 9th to 6th century B.C, mention the king of Qedar as king of the Arabs and King of the Ishmaelites[4][5][6][7] . Of the names of the sons of Ishmael the names “Nabat, Kedar, Abdeel, Dumah, Massa, and Teman” were mentioned in the Assyrian Royal Inscriptions as tribes of the Ishmaelites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmaelites

I'm pretty sure there would have been Arabs in Arabia before ass-man of old testament fame left home. I am not asking you to trace their ancestry. I am asking about Muhammed's claims regarding the Arabs. I think most of Muhammed's attempts to rewrite history to give Islam orthodox credibility are transparent bullshit. However in this case it is the claim itself that is interesting.

Not sure why this is such a touchy subject, particularly for you setanta.

freediver wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 7:38pm:

I'm pretty sure there would have been Arabs in Arabia before ass-man of old testament fame left home. I am not asking you to trace their ancestry. I am asking about Muhammed's claims regarding the Arabs. I think most of Muhammed's attempts to rewrite history to give Islam orthodox credibility are transparent bullshit. However in this case it is the claim itself that is interesting. Not sure why this is such a touchy subject, particularly for you setanta.

It's not touchy to me at all. Seeing crap posted is the problem. The Arabs were considered descended from Ishmael for at least 1000 years before Mohammed. Why does he have to "claim" anything, what has this got to do with Muslims being tainted because of Ishmael? Not all Muslims are Arab, not all Arabs are Muslim.

freediver wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 1:29pm:

Gandalf gets jealous if I pay too much attention to the apologists rather than to him. Did Muhammed claim that he and his fellow Arabs were descended from this proverbial ass-man?

Yes they do.

Ask them or google it.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 8:19pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 1:29pm: Gandalf gets jealous if I pay too much attention to the apologists rather than to him. Did Muhammed claim that he and his fellow Arabs were descended from this proverbial ass-man? Yes they do. Ask them or google it.

Are Christian Arabs tainted too? Tainted but forgiven? Namaste. ::)

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 8:19pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 1:29pm: Gandalf gets jealous if I pay too much attention to the apologists rather than to him. Did Muhammed claim that he and his fellow Arabs were descended from this proverbial ass-man? Yes they do. Ask them or google it.

Do you know?

freediver wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 7:38pm:

I'm pretty sure there would have been Arabs in Arabia before ass-man of old testament fame left home. I am not asking you to trace their ancestry. I am asking about Muhammed's claims regarding the Arabs. I think most of Muhammed's attempts to rewrite history to give Islam orthodox credibility are transparent bullshit. However in this case it is the claim itself that is interesting. Not sure why this is such a touchy subject, particularly for you setanta.

Good question, FD, although you seem to be giving more of an answer here than asking a question.

Is there something you want to know?

Please explain.

Karnal wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 9:56pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 8:19pm: freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 1:29pm: Gandalf gets jealous if I pay too much attention to the apologists rather than to him. Did Muhammed claim that he and his fellow Arabs were descended from this proverbial ass-man? Yes they do. Ask them or google it. Do you know?

yes. muslims I have spoken to boast of the link to Ishmael.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 24^th, 2014 at 11:40pm:

Setanta, welcome to debating FD. Spare a thought for me - I have to put up with this sort of sh!t almost every day.

you can leave

Karnal wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 10:00pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 7:38pm: I'm pretty sure there would have been Arabs in Arabia before ass-man of old testament fame left home. I am not asking you to trace their ancestry. I am asking about Muhammed's claims regarding the Arabs. I think most of Muhammed's attempts to rewrite history to give Islam orthodox credibility are transparent bullshit. However in this case it is the claim itself that is interesting. Not sure why this is such a touchy subject, particularly for you setanta. Good question, FD, although you seem to be giving more of an answer here than asking a question. Is there something you want to know? Please explain.

Oh, I see it now, Arabs are not descendants of the ass-man, Ishmael, Arabs were there before, long before, because the world is 4.3 billion years old not 6000. Arabs are therefore not tainted and the OP was pointless.

Setanta wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 8:02pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 7:38pm: I'm pretty sure there would have been Arabs in Arabia before ass-man of old testament fame left home. I am not asking you to trace their ancestry. I am asking about Muhammed's claims regarding the Arabs. I think most of Muhammed's attempts to rewrite history to give Islam orthodox credibility are transparent bullshit. However in this case it is the claim itself that is interesting. Not sure why this is such a touchy subject, particularly for you setanta. It's not touchy to me at all. Seeing crap posted is the problem. The Arabs were considered descended from Ishmael for at least 1000 years before Mohammed. Why does he have to "claim" anything, what has this got to do with Muslims being tainted because of Ishmael? Not all Muslims are Arab, not all Arabs are Muslim.

How about we start with what he did claim, before trying to justify it?

freediver wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 10:10pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 8:02pm: freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 7:38pm: I'm pretty sure there would have been Arabs in Arabia before ass-man of old testament fame left home. I am not asking you to trace their ancestry. I am asking about Muhammed's claims regarding the Arabs. I think most of Muhammed's attempts to rewrite history to give Islam orthodox credibility are transparent bullshit. However in this case it is the claim itself that is interesting. Not sure why this is such a touchy subject, particularly for you setanta. It's not touchy to me at all. Seeing crap posted is the problem. The Arabs were considered descended from Ishmael for at least 1000 years before Mohammed. Why does he have to "claim" anything, what has this got to do with Muslims being tainted because of Ishmael? Not all Muslims are Arab, not all Arabs are Muslim. How about we start with what he did claim, before trying to justify it?

How about we start with the claim in the OP? "Muslims" are tainted because of an "ass-man", Ishmael, and they inherit his affliction, an inherited, genetic failing. That was the implied claim. My answer is that even if what is claimed about Arabs is true, it's irrelevant, not all Muslims are Arab. Muslims do not trace their identity to Ishmael. Is that really so hard?

setanta - they claim ishmaels 'inheritance' as being the first born .

Which is false, as the OT shows

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 10:21pm:

setanta - they claim ishmaels 'inheritance' as being the first born . Which is false, as the OT shows

LOL.. As if I give a stuff about crap like that. Truth be told Ishmael was the first born, Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham, the child was to be, according to custom, Abraham and Sarah's first born. Hagar was Sarah's property.

Setanta wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 10:19pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 10:10pm: Setanta wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 8:02pm: freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 7:38pm: I'm pretty sure there would have been Arabs in Arabia before ass-man of old testament fame left home. I am not asking you to trace their ancestry. I am asking about Muhammed's claims regarding the Arabs. I think most of Muhammed's attempts to rewrite history to give Islam orthodox credibility are transparent bullshit. However in this case it is the claim itself that is interesting. Not sure why this is such a touchy subject, particularly for you setanta. It's not touchy to me at all. Seeing crap posted is the problem. The Arabs were considered descended from Ishmael for at least 1000 years before Mohammed. Why does he have to "claim" anything, what has this got to do with Muslims being tainted because of Ishmael? Not all Muslims are Arab, not all Arabs are Muslim. How about we start with what he did claim, before trying to justify it? How about we start with the claim in the OP? "Muslims" are tainted because of an "ass-man", Ishmael, and they inherit his affliction, an inherited, genetic failing. That was the implied claim. My answer is that even if what is claimed about Arabs is true, it's irrelevant, not all Muslims are Arab. Muslims do not trace their identity to Ishmael. Is that really so hard?

I keep telling you, if this is moving too fast for you, just let us know. We get that Islam is not a race. Most critics of Islam have to defend themselves from accusations of racism on a regular basis. You don't need to keep explaining this.

Can we move on now?

freediver wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 10:34pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 10:19pm: freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 10:10pm: Setanta wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 8:02pm: freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 7:38pm: I'm pretty sure there would have been Arabs in Arabia before ass-man of old testament fame left home. I am not asking you to trace their ancestry. I am asking about Muhammed's claims regarding the Arabs. I think most of Muhammed's attempts to rewrite history to give Islam orthodox credibility are transparent bullshit. However in this case it is the claim itself that is interesting. Not sure why this is such a touchy subject, particularly for you setanta. It's not touchy to me at all. Seeing crap posted is the problem. The Arabs were considered descended from Ishmael for at least 1000 years before Mohammed. Why does he have to "claim" anything, what has this got to do with Muslims being tainted because of Ishmael? Not all Muslims are Arab, not all Arabs are Muslim. How about we start with what he did claim, before trying to justify it? How about we start with the claim in the OP? "Muslims" are tainted because of an "ass-man", Ishmael, and they inherit his affliction, an inherited, genetic failing. That was the implied claim. My answer is that even if what is claimed about Arabs is true, it's irrelevant, not all Muslims are Arab. Muslims do not trace their identity to Ishmael. Is that really so hard? I keep telling you, if this is moving too fast for you, just let us know. We get that Islam is not a race. Most critics of Islam have to defend themselves from accusations of racism on a regular basis. You don't need to keep explaining this. Can we move on now?

Well... What are they defending themselves from now? What are you hitting 'em with that they need to defend themselves?
If it's not on topic, then yes, you should explain and spell it out. You are disagreeing with the OP but....

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 10:03pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 9:56pm: Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 8:19pm: freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 1:29pm: Gandalf gets jealous if I pay too much attention to the apologists rather than to him. Did Muhammed claim that he and his fellow Arabs were descended from this proverbial ass-man? Yes they do. Ask them or google it. Do you know? yes. muslims I have spoken to boast of the link to Ishmael.

Abu again, eh?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 10:03pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 11:40pm: Setanta, welcome to debating FD. Spare a thought for me - I have to put up with this sort of sh!t almost every day. you can leave

He could always be deported to New Zealand.

Setanta wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 10:40pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 10:34pm: Setanta wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 10:19pm: freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 10:10pm: Setanta wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 8:02pm: freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 7:38pm: I'm pretty sure there would have been Arabs in Arabia before ass-man of old testament fame left home. I am not asking you to trace their ancestry. I am asking about Muhammed's claims regarding the Arabs. I think most of Muhammed's attempts to rewrite history to give Islam orthodox credibility are transparent bullshit. However in this case it is the claim itself that is interesting. Not sure why this is such a touchy subject, particularly for you setanta. It's not touchy to me at all. Seeing crap posted is the problem. The Arabs were considered descended from Ishmael for at least 1000 years before Mohammed. Why does he have to "claim" anything, what has this got to do with Muslims being tainted because of Ishmael? Not all Muslims are Arab, not all Arabs are Muslim. How about we start with what he did claim, before trying to justify it? How about we start with the claim in the OP? "Muslims" are tainted because of an "ass-man", Ishmael, and they inherit his affliction, an inherited, genetic failing. That was the implied claim. My answer is that even if what is claimed about Arabs is true, it's irrelevant, not all Muslims are Arab. Muslims do not trace their identity to Ishmael. Is that really so hard? I keep telling you, if this is moving too fast for you, just let us know. We get that Islam is not a race. Most critics of Islam have to defend themselves from accusations of racism on a regular basis. You don't need to keep explaining this. Can we move on now? Well... What are they defending themselves from now? What are you hitting 'em with that they need to defend themselves? If it's not on topic, then yes, you should explain and spell it out. You are disagreeing with the OP but....

No no, FD was just asking a question. Can we move on now?

FD, of course, is free to move to New Zealand, but he might bump into G, who should be forcibly deported for being a Muslim.

As opposed to Sprint, who is free to move to Australia to call for the deportation of G.

FD and Sprint, you see, are both arch-defenders of Freeedom.

Karnal wrote on Jul 26^th, 2014 at 12:27am:

FD and Sprint, you see, are both arch-defenders of Freeedom.

Karnal,

Perhaps.

But people like yourself are not.

People like yourself will spend the 'coin' that has been gifted to you - but you will never choose to earn that 'coin' for yourself.

Because you have the heart of the slave.iThere can be no freedom, there can be no enjoyment of a peaceful life,          for those who are forever threatened with subjugation [slavery], by men of violence.

Q.
Who are the men of violence [today], who forever threaten us with slavery ?

A.
Moslems.


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29






Quote:

"......he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power does thereby put himself into a state of war with him;" John Locke 1632-170

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1242692863/0#0

The heart of a slave? Thanks, Y. I needed that.

I haven’t laughed that hard in ages.

It is to laugh.

Psalms 2:2
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3  Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4  He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5  Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.iRomans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Isaiah 41:10
.....I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.


Isaiah 55:6
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.


Hebrews 12:9
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10  For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.


Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15  For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.i
Where justice reigns, 'tis freedom to obey.
James Montgomery

Setanta wrote on Jul 25^th, 2014 at 10:40pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 10:34pm: Setanta wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 10:19pm: freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 10:10pm: Setanta wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 8:02pm: freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 7:38pm: I'm pretty sure there would have been Arabs in Arabia before ass-man of old testament fame left home. I am not asking you to trace their ancestry. I am asking about Muhammed's claims regarding the Arabs. I think most of Muhammed's attempts to rewrite history to give Islam orthodox credibility are transparent bullshit. However in this case it is the claim itself that is interesting. Not sure why this is such a touchy subject, particularly for you setanta. It's not touchy to me at all. Seeing crap posted is the problem. The Arabs were considered descended from Ishmael for at least 1000 years before Mohammed. Why does he have to "claim" anything, what has this got to do with Muslims being tainted because of Ishmael? Not all Muslims are Arab, not all Arabs are Muslim. How about we start with what he did claim, before trying to justify it? How about we start with the claim in the OP? "Muslims" are tainted because of an "ass-man", Ishmael, and they inherit his affliction, an inherited, genetic failing. That was the implied claim. My answer is that even if what is claimed about Arabs is true, it's irrelevant, not all Muslims are Arab. Muslims do not trace their identity to Ishmael. Is that really so hard? I keep telling you, if this is moving too fast for you, just let us know. We get that Islam is not a race. Most critics of Islam have to defend themselves from accusations of racism on a regular basis. You don't need to keep explaining this. Can we move on now? Well... What are they defending themselves from now? What are you hitting 'em with that they need to defend themselves? If it's not on topic, then yes, you should explain and spell it out. You are disagreeing with the OP but....

You are confused Setanta. I am just trying to figure out what Muhammed actually said about it. Do I need to start a new thread about that, seeing as you are policing the content of this one? Why do you seem so desperate to avoid any clarification?

freediver wrote on Jul 26^th, 2014 at 9:48am:

Setanta wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 10:40pm: freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 10:34pm: Setanta wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 10:19pm: freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 10:10pm: Setanta wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 8:02pm: freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2014 at 7:38pm: I'm pretty sure there would have been Arabs in Arabia before ass-man of old testament fame left home. I am not asking you to trace their ancestry. I am asking about Muhammed's claims regarding the Arabs. I think most of Muhammed's attempts to rewrite history to give Islam orthodox credibility are transparent bullshit. However in this case it is the claim itself that is interesting. Not sure why this is such a touchy subject, particularly for you setanta. It's not touchy to me at all. Seeing crap posted is the problem. The Arabs were considered descended from Ishmael for at least 1000 years before Mohammed. Why does he have to "claim" anything, what has this got to do with Muslims being tainted because of Ishmael? Not all Muslims are Arab, not all Arabs are Muslim. How about we start with what he did claim, before trying to justify it? How about we start with the claim in the OP? "Muslims" are tainted because of an "ass-man", Ishmael, and they inherit his affliction, an inherited, genetic failing. That was the implied claim. My answer is that even if what is claimed about Arabs is true, it's irrelevant, not all Muslims are Arab. Muslims do not trace their identity to Ishmael. Is that really so hard? I keep telling you, if this is moving too fast for you, just let us know. We get that Islam is not a race. Most critics of Islam have to defend themselves from accusations of racism on a regular basis. You don't need to keep explaining this. Can we move on now? Well... What are they defending themselves from now? What are you hitting 'em with that they need to defend themselves? If it's not on topic, then yes, you should explain and spell it out. You are disagreeing with the OP but.... You are confused Setanta. I am just trying to figure out what Muhammed actually said about it. Do I need to start a new thread about that, seeing as you are policing the content of this one? Why do you seem so desperate to avoid any clarification?

Maybe Setanta is against Freeedom.

I can’t think of a better place to figure out what Muhammed actually said than Ozpolitic.

You keep searching for the truth, FD. It will come.

freediver wrote on Jul 26^th, 2014 at 9:48am:

You are confused Setanta. I am just trying to figure out what Muhammed actually said about it.

How do you expect Setanta to know what Muhammad said about it?

I don't even know. Do you?

Presumably there is some point you are trying to make FD.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 26^th, 2014 at 1:51pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 26th, 2014 at 9:48am: You are confused Setanta. I am just trying to figure out what Muhammed actually said about it. How do you expect Setanta to know what Muhammad said about it? I don't even know. Do you? Presumably there is some point you are trying to make FD.

No no, FD’s just asking questions. Sometimes a question is just a question, you know.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 26^th, 2014 at 1:51pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 26th, 2014 at 9:48am: You are confused Setanta. I am just trying to figure out what Muhammed actually said about it. How do you expect Setanta to know what Muhammad said about it? I don't even know. Do you? Presumably there is some point you are trying to make FD.

Because he has already tried to justify what Muhammed said as well as deflect from the question, while showing an unusual and particular interest in the topic.

I don't know the answer myself. Sometimes a question is just a question.

freediver wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 9:11am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 26th, 2014 at 1:51pm: freediver wrote on Jul 26th, 2014 at 9:48am: You are confused Setanta. I am just trying to figure out what Muhammed actually said about it. How do you expect Setanta to know what Muhammad said about it? I don't even know. Do you? Presumably there is some point you are trying to make FD. Because he has already tried to justify what Muhammed said as well as deflect from the question, while showing an unusual and particular interest in the topic. I don't know the answer myself. Sometimes a question is just a question.

How did I try to justify what Mohammed said when I have no idea what that was? I was trying to get you to say why it would matter if he said Arabs were descendants of Ishmael, I have no idea if he did. Arabs have been considered for 3,000 or 4,000 years descendants of Ishmael.

So what was the point you were trying to make? Let's suppose Mohammed said they were, what significance does this have?

Quote:

How did I try to justify what Mohammed said when I have no idea what that was?

Yes, it struck me as odd also, yet that is what you did.


Quote:

I was trying to get you to say why it would matter if he said Arabs were descendants of Ishmael

I never said it would matter. I am asking about what Muhammed said. I have already explained to you, over and over again, in this very thread, that this is not a question of racism or tracing Arab ancestry. If you need me to take this all a bit slower, just say so, but to be honest I am having trouble dumbing this down any more.


Quote:

So what was the point you were trying to make? Let's suppose Mohammed said they were, what significance does this have?

Sometimes a question is just a question. I am not sure why asking it irritates you so much. How about we figure out what the answer is before trying to figure out the implications? Otherwise people might accuse you of obfuscating.

Well, there you go. I have no answer to my question and you have no answer to yours, that was a waste of a thread.

Setanta wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 11:10pm:

Well, there you go. I have no answer to my question and you have no answer to yours, that was a waste of a thread.

True, but it did give FD the opportunity to ask questions. There are no right or wrong answers, you know.

Setanta wrote on Jul 27^th, 2014 at 11:10pm:

Well, there you go. I have no answer to my question and you have no answer to yours, that was a waste of a thread.

At least we have your excuses for Muhammed saying what he may or may not have said.