Australian Politics Forum

Australian Politics Forum
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl Member Run Boards >> Extremism Exposed >> "You don't see myself going to church and doing.." http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1407027136 Message started by Brian Ross on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 10:52am

Title: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by Brian Ross on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 10:52am

Quote:

Rock art vandalism, including graffiti, imitation carvings, devastates WA Aboriginal elders

Vandals have permanently damaged ancient Aboriginal rock art in Western Australia's Pilbara region, leaving elders devastated and forcing rangers to document graffiti and imitation carvings.

The damage has been discovered at the site of some of the world's oldest and largest Aboriginal carvings, which have laid undisturbed for centuries on the Burrup Peninsula, in the shadow of Australia's biggest and richest resource projects.

"This is the oldest rock art in the world, and people tend to still climb over it and do a bit of damage in all different ways," elder and senior cultural ranger Geoffrey Togo said.

"The main one we seem to be finding lately is people spray painting on rock art, and on the face of rocks, and some other old carvings.

"Some seem to be carving themselves, their name or something else, on top of old carvings."

Mr Togo said traditional owners were appalled.

"It makes me angry when they do it," he said.

"You don't see myself going to church and doing the same thing in the church or someone's home.

"This is basically my backyard, well everyone's backyard really, so why go and destroy things you don't know anything about?" he asked

Done out of ignorance or spite? In this day and age, is there any excuse for such vandalism? ::)

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 10:57am

Spite would be my guess. Can't see how anyone in Australia can claim 'ignorance'.

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by Yasser CrackaFat on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 2:42pm

"You don't see myself going to church and doing.. "

That would probably be because people that do aspire to greater heights than violence like the muslims do. What gives the abo's rights to graffiti where they like and no one else today ?

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by Brian Ross on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:14pm

SweetLambo wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 2:42pm:

[Stupid reference to Muslims deleted]
What gives the abo's rights to graffiti where they like and no one else today ?

An interesting question. Perhaps the difference is when the Aborigines did it (thousands of years ago) and the reasons why they did it (cultural significance) and of course, that it is now a judged to be "art" where as modern graffiti is generally not?

Graffiti is generally understood, no matter when it was done, to be disrespectful of the original surface on which it is scrawled. That the Aboriginal rock art predates the modern graffiti would suggest that the modern graffiti is disrespectful (and it invariably is).

Why do white people feel the need to be disrespectful to Aboriginal art and culture? It shows ignorance and a racist devaluing of what is sacred to our Indigenes' culture.

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by Honky on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:20pm

It is very rude if the site really is of cultural significance. Unfortunately, what constitutes significance has been somewhat cheapened. Middens are deemed to be 'culturally signficiant' but they are literally just piles of garbage.

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:44pm

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:14pm:

SweetLambo wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 2:42pm:

[Stupid reference to Muslims deleted]
What gives the abo's rights to graffiti where they like and no one else today ?

Are you certain it was done by white people??

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by Brian Ross on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:48pm

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:20pm:

Some people believe these are "culturally significant" as well:

They were, afterall just "rubbish dumps" to most people until their significance was pointed out...

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by Brian Ross on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:51pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:44pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:14pm:

SweetLambo wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 2:42pm:

[Stupid reference to Muslims deleted]
What gives the abo's rights to graffiti where they like and no one else today ?

Are you certain it was done by white people??

A good point. I agree that I can not provided evidence with absolute certainty but I somehow doubt Indigenes from the area would do it...

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by freediver on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 8:15pm

Russel Coight....

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by Caliph adamant on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 8:47pm

Muslim black ops obviously.

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by Honky on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:31pm

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:48pm:

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:20pm:

Some people believe these are "culturally significant" as well:

They were, afterall just "rubbish dumps" to most people until their significance was pointed out...

Wrong, they were never rubbish dumps.

When I said a midden is literally a garbage dump, that's exactly what I meant.

Quote:

A midden (also kitchen midden or shell heap) (from early Scandinavian; Norwegian: mødding, Danish: mødding, Swedish regional: mödding)[1] is an old dump for domestic waste[2] which may consist of animal bone, human excrement, botanical material, vermin, shells, sherds, lithics (especially debitage), and other artifacts and ecofacts associated with past human occupation.

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:37pm

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:31pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:48pm:

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:20pm:

Some people believe these are "culturally significant" as well:

They were, afterall just "rubbish dumps" to most people until their significance was pointed out...

Wrong, they were never rubbish dumps.

When I said a midden is literally a garbage dump, that's exactly what I meant.

Quote:

To an archaeologist, a midden (or any rubbish heap) is a great source of information about the culture.

And Brian, those places would never have been considered 'rubbish heaps', even to the earliest European explorers. Ruins perhaps, or wrecks, but not rubbish.

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by Honky on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:39pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:37pm:

To an archaeologist, a midden (or any rubbish heap) is a great source of information about the culture.

I'm sure it is.

But culturally significant? GTFO. You ever seen anyone praying or doing a pilgrimage to the local landfill?

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:48pm

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:39pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:37pm:

To an archaeologist, a midden (or any rubbish heap) is a great source of information about the culture.

I'm sure it is.

But culturally significant? GTFO. You ever seen anyone praying or doing a pilgrimage to the local landfill?

Well, not praying. Significant in that they can tell you a lot about how the people that used it lived, what they ate, what sort of materials they made their cookware out of, stuff like that.

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by Sprintcyclist on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 10:06pm

looks like someone spat dirt around their hand to me.

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by Brian Ross on Aug 4^th, 2014 at 6:29pm

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:31pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:48pm:

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 3:20pm:

Some people believe these are "culturally significant" as well:

They were, afterall just "rubbish dumps" to most people until their significance was pointed out...

Wrong, they were never rubbish dumps.

When I said a midden is literally a garbage dump, that's exactly what I meant.

Quote:

Anything can have "cultural significance" if a culture decides it should. A midden can be "culturally significant" simply because it exists. That doesn't mean that people have to worship it or travel to see it or have anything to do with it. Great Zimbabwe is culturally significant to many Africans but they don't worship it, will more than likely never travel there or have anything to do with it physically. Gallipoli is culturally significant to many Australians (can't figure out why, myself, it's just a barren patch of coastline with some graves dotted here and there) but the majority don't worship it or will ever travel to see it.

To many Indigenes middens are culturally significant because they prove continuous occupation over extended periods, something many White Australians still deny. They also indicate cultural links to the land, by demonstrating that the Indigenes consumed the food that it provided.

Denial of such significance is merely another tool in the Occupyer’s armoury to deny the Indigenes’ prior claim to ownership of that lands taken from them.

The images I provided were of structures which were once considered great but which were allowed to go to wrack and ruin. Angkor and Machu Pichu were overgrown and long abandoned, the Great Wall of China was used as building materials and contributed greatly to the expansion of Beijing after the 12th century CE. While not literally rubbish dumps, they had been abandoned and largely forgotten. Indeed, long stretches of the Great Wall are merely heaps of rubble. Once rediscovered they became "culturally significant".

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by Brian Ross on Aug 4^th, 2014 at 6:31pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:37pm:

And Brian, those places would never have been considered 'rubbish heaps', even to the earliest European explorers. Ruins perhaps, or wrecks, but not rubbish.

It doesn't matter what the Europeans believed about them, it's what the locals thought of them that was important for hundreds/thousands of years... ::)

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by Brian Ross on Aug 4^th, 2014 at 6:33pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 10:06pm:

looks like someone spat dirt around their hand to me.

That is exactly what they are, Sprint. It was a common practice amongst stoneage peoples the world over:

from the Pech Merle cave in south-western France:

Hand prints dating from 37,000 years ago, and a red disk from 40,600 years ago (not pictured), in El Castillo Cave in Spain, are the oldest cave paintings in Europe:

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 4^th, 2014 at 7:20pm

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 4^th, 2014 at 6:31pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:37pm:

And Brian, those places would never have been considered 'rubbish heaps', even to the earliest European explorers. Ruins perhaps, or wrecks, but not rubbish.

It doesn't matter what the Europeans believed about them, it's what the locals thought of them that was important for hundreds/thousands of years... ::)

And the Europeans thought basically the same thing as the locals.

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by Brian Ross on Aug 4^th, 2014 at 8:51pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 4^th, 2014 at 7:20pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 4^th, 2014 at 6:31pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:37pm:

And Brian, those places would never have been considered 'rubbish heaps', even to the earliest European explorers. Ruins perhaps, or wrecks, but not rubbish.

It doesn't matter what the Europeans believed about them, it's what the locals thought of them that was important for hundreds/thousands of years... ::)

And the Europeans thought basically the same thing as the locals.

Most agreed they were ruins and of no interest. Some however disagreed and poked around and figured things out and their significance was revealed. The Great Wall was a linear quarry. Angkor disappeared under the jungle, Machu Pichu was lost in the clouds and so on, ad infinitum.

Title: Re: "You don't see myself going to church and doing.."
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 4^th, 2014 at 9:18pm

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 4^th, 2014 at 8:51pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 4^th, 2014 at 7:20pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 4^th, 2014 at 6:31pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 9:37pm:

And Brian, those places would never have been considered 'rubbish heaps', even to the earliest European explorers. Ruins perhaps, or wrecks, but not rubbish.

It doesn't matter what the Europeans believed about them, it's what the locals thought of them that was important for hundreds/thousands of years... ::)

And the Europeans thought basically the same thing as the locals.

Which was about the same way Stonehenge was considered.

Can you name a foreign culture that treated prehistoric ruins of another culture any differently?