Palestine was ethnically cleansed by a process of murder and expulsion at fear of death by terrorist gangs who now call themselves Israelis.

In the place of a peaceful land is now the Pariah state of Apartheid Israel.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/08/01/the-pariah-state/

"... David Ben-Gurion, December 1947, February 1948; cited in Aruri.

‘The conquest [of Deir Yassin by Irgun and Stern Gang forces, supported by Haganah operatives, in April 1948] was carried out with great cruelty. Whole families – women, old people, children – were killed … Some of the prisoners moved to places of detention, including women and children, were murdered viciously by their captors.’

Yitzhak Levy, Haganah Intelligence Service; cited in Benny Morris, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, 2004.

‘[Of the massacre at al-Daway(i)ma in May 1948] Cultured and well mannered commanders who are considered good fellows … have turned into low murderers, and this happened not in the storm of battle and blind passion, but because of a system of expulsion and annihilation. The few Arabs remain the better.’

Account of a participant soldier who Morris claims ‘appears to have based himself largely or completely on hearsay’ but who elsewhere is described as an eyewitness; cited in Uri Davis, Apartheid Israel, 2003.

‘One Friday night in September 1967 … we were left alone by our officers, who drove into Jerusalem for their night off. An elderly Palestinian man, who had been arrested on the road while carrying a large sum in American dollars, was taken into the interrogation room. While standing outside the building on security detail, I was startled by terrifying screams coming from within. I ran inside, climbed onto a crate, and, through the window observed the prisoner tied to a chair as my good friends beat him all over his body and burned his arms with lit cigarettes. I climbed down from the post, vomited, and returned to my post, frightening and shaking. About an hour later, a pickup truck carrying the body of the “rich” old man pulled out of the station, and my friends informed me they were driving to the Jordan River to get rid of him.’

Sand himself, in The Invention of the Land of Israel

‘“We take the land first and the law comes after” [claimed Yehoshafat Palmon, Arab affairs adviser to the Mayor of Jerusalem to the author]. ‘The law comes after …’. In fact, for most Arabs it did not come at all.’..."

There is no ethnic cleansing of Palestine, as there is or was no country by that name at any time in history despite what any left wing media outlet may claim.
It's only a region always controlled by other empires.
There is however some serious Hamas ethnic  cleansing in Gaza going on.
In this we should all rejoice.

There is very little scholarly disagreement over the fact that there was a deliberate policy of ethnic cleansing during the 1948 war. In fact the writing was on the wall years before the war in the pronouncements and threats by top zionist leaders including Ben-Gurion himself - who is on record as saying the UN partition plan would merely be a stepping stone to grabbing the entire area of "greater Israel".

Lord Curzon - British Foreign Office - wrote in 1918:


Quote:

You have only to read, as probably most of us do, their periodical 'Palestine', and, indeed, their pronouncements in the papers, to see that their programme is expanding from day to day. They now talk about a Jewish State. The Arab portion of the population is well-nigh forgotten and is to be ignored. They not only claim the boundaries of the old Palestine, but they claim to spread across the Jordan into the rich countries lying to the east, and, indeed, there seems to be very small limit to the aspirations which they now form.

How many people died in this ethnic cleansing?

freediver wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 7:54pm:

How many people died in this ethnic cleansing?

Typical Hasbara tactic by Freediver facetiously asking for detail to try to divert the argument.

Taking Deir Yassin as an example. Jews first machine gunned the village and then lined up 90 survivors and then shot them. Deir Yassin was one of 50 villages ethnically cleansed. If you extrapolated just the machine gunned survivors (90) over 50 villages you get at least 4500 muslim civilians murdered by massacre. Could easily be more than double that because the tactic was to machine gun the village before lining up and machine gunning the survivors who had not run away.

There is a bountiful supply of evidence on the internet including Jewish authors who are appalled by the atrocities committed by the Jews.

http://www.seamac.org/EthnicCleansing.htm

"...Massacres played an instrumental role in inducing the indigenous Palestinian population to flee. The most infamous of these massacres occurred in the village of Deir Yassin in April 1948, about a month after the adoption of Plan D. There the Zionist paramilitary forces known as the Irgun and Stern Gang attacked the village despite a previous nonaggression pact reached by village leaders with the Haganah. According to Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, the village was designated for destruction under Plan D but because of the nonaggression pact, the Haganah sent in the Irgun and Stern Gang to “absolve themselves from any official accountability.” (The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, p. 90.) The village was first sprayed with machine-gun fire. Many who survived this attack were then lined up and executed in cold-blood, including women, children, and infants—more than 90 people in all. News of the Deir Yassin massacre, which reportedly included the rape of Arab women, spread rapidly throughout Palestine. The Haganah’s Intelligence Services later described it as “a decisive accelerating factor” in the flight of the Palestinians. (“The Causes and Character of the Arab Exodus from Palestine” by Benny Morris, included in The Israel/Palestine Question, ed. Ilan Pappe, Routledge, 1999, p. 199, paperback edition.)..."

freediver wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 7:54pm:

How many people died in this ethnic cleansing?

Relatively few. Estimates are around 11000 deaths outside combat:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_war

The most effective ethnic cleansings are done with minimal casualties. You just need the fear of slaughter created by one or two actual massacres like Deir Yassin, rather than too much wholesale slaughter to make the population compliant.

As for the ethnic cleansing, Israeli historian Benny Morris categorises the exodus into 4 waves - of which two (waves 3 and 4 - exodus of 300-330 thousand people) were specific expulsion operations. Approximately half of these were clearing of the two major centres Lydda and Ramle over just 3 days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus#Morris.27s_Four_Waves_analysis

Quote:

The most effective ethnic cleansings are done with minimal casualties.

Tell me about it. I know whenever I want to wipe out an entire race, I try to avoid killing anyone. You know how judgemental people can get over that sort of thing.

freediver wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 8:23pm:

Quote: The most effective ethnic cleansings are done with minimal casualties. Tell me about it. I know whenever I want to wipe out an entire race, I try to avoid killing anyone. You know how judgemental people can get over that sort of thing.

How many jews died in the ethnic cleansing from muslim lands post 1948 FD? You do call that ethnic cleansing right?

Good point. Another cunning strategy I like to use is allowing them to live peacefully among us.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Arab_population_israel_2000_en.png/230px-Arab_population_israel_2000_en.png

I am doing a bit of ethnic cleansing right now, but so far no-one has noticed what I am up to. Better get LTYC onto it...

Laugh till you cry wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 4:11pm:

Palestine was ethnically cleansed by a process of murder and expulsion at fear of death by terrorist gangs who now call themselves Israelis.

'ISLAM is peace.'

'Hamas are 'freedom fighters'.'

etc, etc, etc.





Quote:

Google; Hamas charter, calls for the genocide of all Jews The Israel/Palestinian conflict..... It is not about land [for a Palestinian 'homeland'].... The Israel/Palestinian conflict - is about ISLAM and about 'pre-set' ISLAMIC religious doctrines.    Koran 9.29 [quote] THE COVENANT OF THE HAMAS - MAIN POINTS .... On the Destruction of Israel: ----------------------------- 'Israel will exist and  will  continue  to  exist  until  Islam  will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble) The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area: ---------------------------------------- 'The  land  of  Palestine  is  an  Islamic  Waqf  [Holy   Possession] consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No  one can renounce it or any part, or  abandon  it  or  any  part  of  it.' (Article 11) 'Palestine is  an  Islamic  land...  Since  this  is  the  case,  the Liberation of Palestine  is  an  individual  duty  for  every  Moslem wherever he may be.' (Article 13)....

http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm




+++


'Hamas' is a moslem organisation, made up of moslem cadres, being an 'irregular' moslem militant organisation, dedicated to 'eliminating' Allah's enemies.


Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.


EVERY moslem, is a follower - of ISLAM.

EVERY moslem, is a member of the moslem community.

And whether the moslem refers to himself as being a member of,
Hamas,
or the Taliban,
or Al-Qaeda,
or Boko Haram,
or ISIS,
or Al Shabaab,
or [in Australia] Brothers for Life,

OR SIMPLY, AS BEING A, MOSLEM;

....the moslem is the member of 'a group of people' who choose to follow a philosophy [ISLAM], which teaches them [moslems], that it is lawful for them [moslems] to seek to subjugate [i.e. enslave] or murder all of 'disbelieving' mankind.






Quote:

Here, for example, are two very illuminating passages from the canonical Life of Mohammed by Ibn Ishaq, as translated by A. Guillaume, and a third passage, from the earliest known Muslim historian. Ishaq: 204 - "'Men, do you know what you are pledging yourselves to in swearing allegiance to this man [Muhammad]?' 'Yes. In swearing allegiance to him we are pledging to wage war against all mankind.'" Ishaq:231 - "Muslims are one ummah (community) to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders." And here is Al-Tabari, a very early Muslim historian, in book 9, chapter or section 69, reporting words that Muslims believe to have been said by Mohammed himself - "Killing infidels is a small matter to us". These texts are not fossils from a distant past. They are not dead letters. They are still 'live' and carry tremendous weight in the imagination and practice of many Muslims around the world. ...DDA

Google






+++

'Hamas' is a militant moslem organisation which is - at this time, July/August 2014 - engaged in 'Jihad operations' against the State of Israel.



Jihad = = religious fighting in Allah's cause

"Jihad is the pinnacle of ISLAM."
....is a refrain often declared among moslems

Google;
jihad - is the pinnacle of islam


Google;
Jihad operations

The Gazan people are fighting oppression and occupation. There would be no wars if the Israelis did not occupy and treat Gaza as a concentration camp and shoot and bomb nearly every day of Gaza's existence.

Israelis love killing Palestinians and have done so since the creation of Israel by bloodbath.

Of course there would be wars. Hamas is dedicated to wiping out Israel. It is in their charter.

LTYC
you are a moron.

Israel could finish the ethnic cleansing by lunchtime if they wanted.
At the rate they have been conducting ethnic cleansing since 1948, they are going awfully slowly.

I would urge them to speed up the cleansing of terrorists and this time , get rid of every last one of them

You cant leave one militant behind as they infect your lands like weeds.

We have a saying in the farming community
1 years weed, 7 years seed.

Its is so much simpler to go in hard and go in early when you face a weed infestation.
The longer you leave it, the more your pasture suffers.
You spray the Round Up and kill a lot of innocent plants growing nearby.
But it doesn't matter, once you have erased every last skeric of the filthy weed, a new lush pasture will emerge.
the other method is to just conduct a tactical burn.
Burn the pasture completely and kill everything and then new pasture will emerge from the fields like a phoenix.
In some ways , a desperate farmer will often turn to this. The Palestinians had better hope a desperate Israel does not adopt this policy. ;)

yes hamas is a product of the mossad

this fact is validated by ron paul here ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27esxkQtfTc

Ron Paul - Israel Created Hamas

and yes genocide is being inflicted upon palestine

this fact is being exposed as the darkness

is now visible

and so it is

namaste

Laugh till you cry wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 11:14pm:

The Gazan people are fighting oppression and occupation. There would be no wars if the Israelis did not occupy and treat Gaza as a concentration camp and shoot and bomb nearly every day of Gaza's existence. Israelis love killing Palestinians and have done so since the creation of Israel by bloodbath.

http://rhymeswithright.mu.nu/archives/images/moloch.jpg


http://yeljamal.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/israel_palestinian_gaza_strip.jpg


http://www.stuartwilde.com/img_jts/light-of-christ.jpg

Presumably FD has a more politically correct term for the forced eviction of at least 200-300 thousand people on the basis of ethnicity.

Laugh till you cry wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 11:14pm:

The Gazan people are fighting oppression and occupation. There would be no wars if the Israelis did not occupy and treat Gaza as a concentration camp and shoot and bomb nearly every day of Gaza's existence. Israelis love killing Palestinians and have done so since the creation of Israel by bloodbath.

Do you actually believe that dribble?

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Aug 4^th, 2014 at 9:25pm:

Laugh till you cry wrote on Aug 3rd, 2014 at 11:14pm: The Gazan people are fighting oppression and occupation. There would be no wars if the Israelis did not occupy and treat Gaza as a concentration camp and shoot and bomb nearly every day of Gaza's existence. Israelis love killing Palestinians and have done so since the creation of Israel by bloodbath. Do you actually believe that dribble?

QUESTION;

"What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?"



chicken_lips,

Of course LTYC believes it.



And ISLAM is an unstoppable force.     ;)

And by force of will, moslems will destroy Israel.

It says so, in the Hamas charter.

So how can you imagine that the rampant ISLAM of our age could ever be contained, in its push to eliminate the Zionist state ?




Quote:

THE COVENANT OF THE HAMAS - MAIN POINTS .... On the Destruction of Israel: ----------------------------- 'Israel will exist and  will  continue  to  exist  until  Islam  will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble) The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area: ---------------------------------------- 'The  land  of  Palestine  is  an  Islamic  Waqf  [Holy   Possession] consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No  one can renounce it or any part, or  abandon  it  or  any  part  of  it.' (Article 11) 'Palestine is  an  Islamic  land...  Since  this  is  the  case,  the Liberation of Palestine  is  an  individual  duty  for  every  Moslem wherever he may be.' (Article 13)....

http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm



+++


We are living in very strange [bizarre] and wicked times.

God is clever.

Men are dumb [....are 'marching to the sound of another drum' ? ].

Nothing can stop God's plan.

Rather, it is man's own nature, which is driving that plan forward.        :)

Many of us are blinded by - the spirit of this world - and by our own strident vanity and wickedness.

And the harvest is almost upon us.



Matthew 24:37
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,


Genesis 6:5
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
.....
11  The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

Give authority to good and evil men, and then watch what they will do with that power.

Is God wicked, to test his creation, to test men ?

Be careful.




Matthew 13:47
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48  Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49  So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50  And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Revelation 14:15
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17  And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18  And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.


Joel 3:13
Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 4^th, 2014 at 9:00pm:

Presumably FD has a more politically correct term for the forced eviction of at least 200-300 thousand people on the basis of ethnicity.

Yes, I believe he calls it Freeedom.

Karnal wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 12:03am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 4th, 2014 at 9:00pm: Presumably FD has a more politically correct term for the forced eviction of at least 200-300 thousand people on the basis of ethnicity. Yes, I believe he calls it Freeedom.

just heard ISIS have given  a million Christians 2 days to leave the caliphate or
1 convert
2 pay protection money
3 beheaded

so that's an ethnic cleanse 3 x as big.
worthy of 3 x as much media coverage?
thoughts?

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 4^th, 2014 at 9:00pm:

Presumably FD has a more politically correct term for the forced eviction of at least 200-300 thousand people on the basis of ethnicity.

It was not on the basis of ethnicity Gandalf. Roughly a quarter of Israel's current population is of the ethnicity you suggest was forcibly evicted.

It was on the basis of who was hostile to the new state. Those that were not were allowed to stay, and today enjoy more rights than Arabs in most middle eastern countries. Those who decided to fight were either shot or evicted.

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 7:11am:

Roughly a quarter of Israel's current population is of the ethnicity you suggest was forcibly evicted.

Why is it so hard for you to grasp the fact that ethnic cleansing does not necessarily involve the wholesale cleansing of the *ENTIRE* country? The urban centres of Lydda and Ramle - as well as others were *ENTIRELY* cleansed of their arab populations, therefore in those places Israel practiced ethnic cleansing. I don't really care if you have a more politically correct term for it, its ethnic cleansing pure and simple.



freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 7:11am:

It was on the basis of who was hostile to the new state. Those that were not were allowed to stay, and today enjoy more rights than Arabs in most middle eastern countries. Those who decided to fight were either shot or evicted.

So you think that ethnic cleansing on the basis of a real or perceived threat from that ethnicity is somehow not ethnic cleansing? Wrong.

Also, the residents of Lydda and Ramle were not divided into those who were hostile, and those who were not - they were indiscriminately evicted - every man, woman and child - some 200-320 thousand of them. Obviously the Israeli leadership responsible justified it in terms of security, but doing so does not in any way shape or form change the fact that it was ethnic cleansing.

I know one thing, the muslims would love to ethnically cleanse Palestine and Israel of the Jews. If they could've they would have done it by now.

Shakey wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 5:46pm:

I know one thing, the muslims would love to ethnically cleanse Palestine and Israel of the Jews. If they could've they would have done it by now.

Yes Shakey, I believe we've heard that meme before.

Like every two minutes every single day, ad-nauseum.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 5:48pm:

Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 5:46pm: I know one thing, the muslims would love to ethnically cleanse Palestine and Israel of the Jews. If they could've they would have done it by now. Yes Shakey, I believe we've heard that meme before. Like every two minutes every single day, ad-nauseum.

Didn't a whole bunch of neighbouring countries get together a bunch of times in a bid to push the jews into the sea. Hardly a one sided affair, is it.

Shakey wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 5:52pm:

Didn't a whole bunch of neighbouring countries get together a bunch of times in a bid to push the jews into the sea. Hardly a one sided affair, is it.

Agreed - Israel dominated them in every single aspect, every single time.

Plus they remain the sole nuclear armed power in the region.

But sure, we can keep pretending that Syrians attempting to take back the fertile Golan Heights, or the Egyptians reclaiming the Sinai - that in both cases Israel took in a blatantly aggressive land grab - is all about the barbarian arabs trying to ethnically cleanse the poor jooos.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 6:01pm:

Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 5:52pm: Didn't a whole bunch of neighbouring countries get together a bunch of times in a bid to push the jews into the sea. Hardly a one sided affair, is it. Agreed - Israel dominated them in every single aspect, every single time. Plus they remain the sole nuclear armed power in the region. But sure, we can keep pretending that Syrians attempting to take back the fertile Golan Heights, or the Egyptians reclaiming the Sinai - that in both cases Israel took in a blatantly aggressive land grab - is all about the barbarian arabs trying to ethnically cleanse the poor jooos.

If the arabs grabbed parts of Israel would they give it back? I'm not supporting the jews, but I'm sure the islamists aren't innocent either.

freediver wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2014 at 8:34pm:

Good point. Another cunning strategy I like to use is allowing them to live peacefully among us. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Arab_population_israel_2000_en.png/230px-Arab_population_israel_2000_en.png I am doing a bit of ethnic cleansing right now, but so far no-one has noticed what I am up to. Better get LTYC onto it...

Not only allowing them to live amongst the Jews, but allow them to hold political positions in Parliament, or serve in the IDF and hold General rank in the Israeli army.
A very cunning strategy indeed.

Yes, CLFM, please do tell me all about the 4 million Palestinians under direct Israeli control who have all these wonderful human rights.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 6:01pm:

Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 5:52pm: Didn't a whole bunch of neighbouring countries get together a bunch of times in a bid to push the jews into the sea. Hardly a one sided affair, is it. Agreed - Israel dominated them in every single aspect, every single time. Plus they remain the sole nuclear armed power in the region. But sure, we can keep pretending that Syrians attempting to take back the fertile Golan Heights, or the Egyptians reclaiming the Sinai - that in both cases Israel took in a blatantly aggressive land grab - is all about the barbarian arabs trying to ethnically cleanse the poor jooos.

Perhaps the Egyptians and Syrians should have learned beforehand how to successfully attack their neighbour to drive them into the sea and steal their land.
That aggressive land grab you casually threw in by the Israeli's only took place after the Israeli's were attacked once again by numerically superior Arab armies, and beat them again into the ground.
The Syrians and Egyptians aren't complaining, and are probably quite grateful that wasn't the only land they lost after their perfidious attack.
And the Israeli's are under no illusion unlike yourself about what is in store for them if they lose any war.

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 6:26pm:

That aggressive land grab you casually threw in by the Israeli's only took place after the Israeli's were attacked once again by numerically superior Arab armies, and beat them again into the ground.

*yawn* - been there, debunked that...


Quote:

General Dayan interrupted: ''Never mind that. After all, I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let's talk about 80 percent. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance farther, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was.''

Quote:

''The kibbutzim there saw land that was good for agriculture,'' he said. ''And you must remember, this was a time in which agricultural land was considered the most important and valuable thing.''

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/11/world/general-s-words-shed-a-new-light-on-the-golan.html?src=pm&pagewanted=1

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 6:10pm:

Yes, CLFM, please do tell me all about the 4 million Palestinians under direct Israeli control who have all these wonderful human rights.

They could do a lot better for themselves if they didn't have an inbuilt hatred for Jews, and could stop trying to kill Jewish women and children at every opportunity.
They have more human rights than the Jews ever received for hundreds of years before Israel was formed by the UN.
And they should count themselves lucky they have the Israeli's living next door rather than the Russian, Chinese or North Korean nations and maybe a dozen others who would have put every single one of them to the sword instead of living with what Israeli citizens have had to live with for decades whilst the world stayed silent.
Do you think the Palestinians get a better deal living behind razor wire in Lebanon or Jordan.
Or that Palestinians are no longer allowed to work in Jordan despite the Palestinians comprising 60% of the population in that country, or that the King's wife is Palestinian.
Do you think it's just coincidence that the Iraqi's want no more Palestinians in Iraq and will no longer recognise any with dual passports, or that Egypt would rather assist their blood enemy, to contain the Palestinians in Gaza.
Is it a coincidence that Palestinians are treated like slaves in Saudi Arabia.
Wake up to yourself and cry me a river.
The Palestinians are the rabid wild dogs you hear about that eventually get put in the back yard of someone you hate, instead of the dogs getting put down.
The other Muslim nations are very happy to supply the Palestinians with weapons as long as they are next door to Israel, and are using those weapons to kill Jews.
But outside of Israel, the Palestinians are the deformed lepers of the Arab world.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 6:44pm:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:26pm: That aggressive land grab you casually threw in by the Israeli's only took place after the Israeli's were attacked once again by numerically superior Arab armies, and beat them again into the ground. *yawn* - been there, debunked that... Quote: General Dayan interrupted: ''Never mind that. After all, I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let's talk about 80 percent. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance farther, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was.'' [quote]''The kibbutzim there saw land that was good for agriculture,'' he said. ''And you must remember, this was a time in which agricultural land was considered the most important and valuable thing.''

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/11/world/general-s-words-shed-a-new-light-on-the-golan.html?src=pm&pagewanted=1[/quote]

That doesn't get away from the fact that over one thousand Arab tanks, planes and hundreds of thousands of soldiers poured into Israel with the aim of wiping out Israel.
The Arabs planned that operation many months in advance to achieve the co-ordination that was required from all the nations involved irrespective of how the war actually started.

Quote:

So you think that ethnic cleansing on the basis of a real or perceived threat from that ethnicity is somehow not ethnic cleansing? Wrong.

No Gandalf. Not on the basis of fear of ethnicity, but on the basis of fear of getting shot. Why is that so hard for you to understand? If they were christians, jews or atheists, white, black or yellow shooting at them, the Israelis would have given them the same treatment.

It is true that Israel was born of ethnic cleansing - the ethnic cleansing of Jews from many Arab countries. This was not in the context of some kind of urban street war between Jews and Arabs, but of a stable Arab government getting rid of the Jews, finally fulfilling Muhammed's promise.


Quote:

Yes Shakey, I believe we've heard that meme before. Like every two minutes every single day, ad-nauseum.

Do you disagree with it Gandalf?


Quote:

Agreed - Israel dominated them in every single aspect, every single time.

Is this somehow unfair Gandalf? Are the Arabs and Palestinians innocent merely because they lost so badly?


Quote:

Yes, CLFM, please do tell me all about the 4 million Palestinians under direct Israeli control who have all these wonderful human rights.

They are under their own control Gandalf. They elected Hamas remember? They are responsible for the consequences of their own actions. This is just more bullshit Muslim victimhood. It is Hamas who denies them human rights. It is Hamas who slaughters them if they protest against Hamas.


Quote:

Perhaps the Egyptians and Syrians should have learned beforehand how to successfully attack their neighbour to drive them into the sea and steal their land. That aggressive land grab you casually threw in by the Israeli's only took place after the Israeli's were attacked once again by numerically superior Arab armies, and beat them again into the ground.

Actually, Israel gave back the vast majority of the territory it won.

Shakey wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 6:05pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:01pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 5:52pm: Didn't a whole bunch of neighbouring countries get together a bunch of times in a bid to push the jews into the sea. Hardly a one sided affair, is it. Agreed - Israel dominated them in every single aspect, every single time. Plus they remain the sole nuclear armed power in the region. But sure, we can keep pretending that Syrians attempting to take back the fertile Golan Heights, or the Egyptians reclaiming the Sinai - that in both cases Israel took in a blatantly aggressive land grab - is all about the barbarian arabs trying to ethnically cleanse the poor jooos. If the arabs grabbed parts of Israel would they give it back? I'm not supporting the jews, but I'm sure the islamists aren't innocent either.

Good question, Shakey. If another country captured Western Sydney in 1967 and refused to give it back despite a number of UN resolutions, would you forgive and forget?

I’m curious.

Karnal wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 7:52pm:

Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:05pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:01pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 5:52pm: Didn't a whole bunch of neighbouring countries get together a bunch of times in a bid to push the jews into the sea. Hardly a one sided affair, is it. Agreed - Israel dominated them in every single aspect, every single time. Plus they remain the sole nuclear armed power in the region. But sure, we can keep pretending that Syrians attempting to take back the fertile Golan Heights, or the Egyptians reclaiming the Sinai - that in both cases Israel took in a blatantly aggressive land grab - is all about the barbarian arabs trying to ethnically cleanse the poor jooos. If the arabs grabbed parts of Israel would they give it back? I'm not supporting the jews, but I'm sure the islamists aren't innocent either. Good question, Shakey. If another country captured Western Sydney in 1967 and refused to give it back despite a number of UN resolutions, would you forgive and forget? I’m curious.

Your people have taken parts of Western Sydney. Look at Lakemba, Auburn and Guildford. They can have them anyway  because they were crapholes back then as they are now.

Shakey wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 7:55pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 7:52pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:05pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:01pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 5:52pm: Didn't a whole bunch of neighbouring countries get together a bunch of times in a bid to push the jews into the sea. Hardly a one sided affair, is it. Agreed - Israel dominated them in every single aspect, every single time. Plus they remain the sole nuclear armed power in the region. But sure, we can keep pretending that Syrians attempting to take back the fertile Golan Heights, or the Egyptians reclaiming the Sinai - that in both cases Israel took in a blatantly aggressive land grab - is all about the barbarian arabs trying to ethnically cleanse the poor jooos. If the arabs grabbed parts of Israel would they give it back? I'm not supporting the jews, but I'm sure the islamists aren't innocent either. Good question, Shakey. If another country captured Western Sydney in 1967 and refused to give it back despite a number of UN resolutions, would you forgive and forget? I’m curious. Your people have taken parts of Western Sydney. Look at Lakemba, Auburn and Guildford. They can have them anyway  because they were crapholes back then as they are now.

Oh, I know, Shakey. I live here, remember?

Have you moved out?

Karnal wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 8:00pm:

Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 7:55pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 7:52pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:05pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:01pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 5:52pm: Didn't a whole bunch of neighbouring countries get together a bunch of times in a bid to push the jews into the sea. Hardly a one sided affair, is it. Agreed - Israel dominated them in every single aspect, every single time. Plus they remain the sole nuclear armed power in the region. But sure, we can keep pretending that Syrians attempting to take back the fertile Golan Heights, or the Egyptians reclaiming the Sinai - that in both cases Israel took in a blatantly aggressive land grab - is all about the barbarian arabs trying to ethnically cleanse the poor jooos. If the arabs grabbed parts of Israel would they give it back? I'm not supporting the jews, but I'm sure the islamists aren't innocent either. Good question, Shakey. If another country captured Western Sydney in 1967 and refused to give it back despite a number of UN resolutions, would you forgive and forget? I’m curious. Your people have taken parts of Western Sydney. Look at Lakemba, Auburn and Guildford. They can have them anyway  because they were crapholes back then as they are now. Oh, I know, Shakey. I live here, remember? Have you moved out?

Of course love.

Shakey wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 8:07pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:00pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 7:55pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 7:52pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:05pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:01pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 5:52pm: Didn't a whole bunch of neighbouring countries get together a bunch of times in a bid to push the jews into the sea. Hardly a one sided affair, is it. Agreed - Israel dominated them in every single aspect, every single time. Plus they remain the sole nuclear armed power in the region. But sure, we can keep pretending that Syrians attempting to take back the fertile Golan Heights, or the Egyptians reclaiming the Sinai - that in both cases Israel took in a blatantly aggressive land grab - is all about the barbarian arabs trying to ethnically cleanse the poor jooos. If the arabs grabbed parts of Israel would they give it back? I'm not supporting the jews, but I'm sure the islamists aren't innocent either. Good question, Shakey. If another country captured Western Sydney in 1967 and refused to give it back despite a number of UN resolutions, would you forgive and forget? I’m curious. Your people have taken parts of Western Sydney. Look at Lakemba, Auburn and Guildford. They can have them anyway  because they were crapholes back then as they are now. Oh, I know, Shakey. I live here, remember? Have you moved out? Of course love.

So you’ve moved out to live with the luvvies, eh?

Thanks for that, Shakey.

You surrendered. We’re still here.

Karnal wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 8:14pm:

Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:07pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:00pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 7:55pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 7:52pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:05pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:01pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 5:52pm: Didn't a whole bunch of neighbouring countries get together a bunch of times in a bid to push the jews into the sea. Hardly a one sided affair, is it. Agreed - Israel dominated them in every single aspect, every single time. Plus they remain the sole nuclear armed power in the region. But sure, we can keep pretending that Syrians attempting to take back the fertile Golan Heights, or the Egyptians reclaiming the Sinai - that in both cases Israel took in a blatantly aggressive land grab - is all about the barbarian arabs trying to ethnically cleanse the poor jooos. If the arabs grabbed parts of Israel would they give it back? I'm not supporting the jews, but I'm sure the islamists aren't innocent either. Good question, Shakey. If another country captured Western Sydney in 1967 and refused to give it back despite a number of UN resolutions, would you forgive and forget? I’m curious. Your people have taken parts of Western Sydney. Look at Lakemba, Auburn and Guildford. They can have them anyway  because they were crapholes back then as they are now. Oh, I know, Shakey. I live here, remember? Have you moved out? Of course love. So you’ve moved out to live with the luvvies, eh? Thanks for that, Shakey. You surrendered. We’re still here.

Surrendered!!! I didn't know there was a war on dear. I thought you belonged to the religion of peace.

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 7:43pm:

No Gandalf. Not on the basis of fear of ethnicity, but on the basis of fear of getting shot. Why is that so hard for you to understand

Non-jews were forcibly removed from major urban centres. It is completely irrelevant the reason they were evicted, the fact is they were forced out on the basis of ethnicity (ie only one ethnicity was removed), and that is ethnic cleansing. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Do you have some aversion to saying (as Benny Morris and others have) that ethnic cleansing can be a morally justifiable action in the interests of self preservation?


freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 7:43pm:

They are under their own control Gandalf. They elected Hamas remember? They are responsible for the consequences of their own actions. This is just more bullshit Muslim victimhood. It is Hamas who denies them human rights. It is Hamas who slaughters them if they protest against Hamas.

Ah yes, I was wondering how long before this gem would come out.

Everyone be in awe at the "control" the Palestinians have on the west bank - that is carved up by settlement regional borders (rendering some 50% of the land as Israeli sovereign territory), riddled with IDF checkpoints and Israeli-only bypass roads, no airspace and no control of any borders. Or in Gaza which is completely surrounded by a wall controlled by external powers, who impose a crippling blockade and restrict the entry of all goods.

Please FD, give us all a good laugh and keep a straight face while you claim the Palestinian territories are not occupied.

Shakey wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 8:17pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:14pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:07pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:00pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 7:55pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 7:52pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:05pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:01pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 5:52pm: Didn't a whole bunch of neighbouring countries get together a bunch of times in a bid to push the jews into the sea. Hardly a one sided affair, is it. Agreed - Israel dominated them in every single aspect, every single time. Plus they remain the sole nuclear armed power in the region. But sure, we can keep pretending that Syrians attempting to take back the fertile Golan Heights, or the Egyptians reclaiming the Sinai - that in both cases Israel took in a blatantly aggressive land grab - is all about the barbarian arabs trying to ethnically cleanse the poor jooos. If the arabs grabbed parts of Israel would they give it back? I'm not supporting the jews, but I'm sure the islamists aren't innocent either. Good question, Shakey. If another country captured Western Sydney in 1967 and refused to give it back despite a number of UN resolutions, would you forgive and forget? I’m curious. Your people have taken parts of Western Sydney. Look at Lakemba, Auburn and Guildford. They can have them anyway  because they were crapholes back then as they are now. Oh, I know, Shakey. I live here, remember? Have you moved out? Of course love. So you’ve moved out to live with the luvvies, eh? Thanks for that, Shakey. You surrendered. We’re still here. Surrendered!!! I didn't know there was a war on dear. I thought you belonged to the religion of peace.

Exactly. I’m a Buddhist.

Sorry, Shakey. I was under the impression you’ve been declaring Western Sydney a war zone since you came here last week.

Moved to the North Shore, have you?

I understand. We whites prefer to stand our ground - you’re probably one of those upwardly mobile curry-munchers.

Effluent, innit.

Karnal wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 8:29pm:

Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:17pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:14pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:07pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:00pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 7:55pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 7:52pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:05pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:01pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 5:52pm: Didn't a whole bunch of neighbouring countries get together a bunch of times in a bid to push the jews into the sea. Hardly a one sided affair, is it. Agreed - Israel dominated them in every single aspect, every single time. Plus they remain the sole nuclear armed power in the region. But sure, we can keep pretending that Syrians attempting to take back the fertile Golan Heights, or the Egyptians reclaiming the Sinai - that in both cases Israel took in a blatantly aggressive land grab - is all about the barbarian arabs trying to ethnically cleanse the poor jooos. If the arabs grabbed parts of Israel would they give it back? I'm not supporting the jews, but I'm sure the islamists aren't innocent either. Good question, Shakey. If another country captured Western Sydney in 1967 and refused to give it back despite a number of UN resolutions, would you forgive and forget? I’m curious. Your people have taken parts of Western Sydney. Look at Lakemba, Auburn and Guildford. They can have them anyway  because they were crapholes back then as they are now. Oh, I know, Shakey. I live here, remember? Have you moved out? Of course love. So you’ve moved out to live with the luvvies, eh? Thanks for that, Shakey. You surrendered. We’re still here. Surrendered!!! I didn't know there was a war on dear. I thought you belonged to the religion of peace. Exactly. I’m a Buddhist. Sorry, Shakey. I was under the impression you’ve been declaring Western Sydney a war zone since you came here last week. Moved to the North Shore, have you? I understand. We whites prefer to stand our ground - you’re probably one of those upwardly mobile curry-munchers. Effluent, innit.

War zone. Oh no dear. That's in Syria fighting with ISIS.

Shakey wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 8:31pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:29pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:17pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:14pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:07pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:00pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 7:55pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 7:52pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:05pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:01pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 5:52pm: Didn't a whole bunch of neighbouring countries get together a bunch of times in a bid to push the jews into the sea. Hardly a one sided affair, is it. Agreed - Israel dominated them in every single aspect, every single time. Plus they remain the sole nuclear armed power in the region. But sure, we can keep pretending that Syrians attempting to take back the fertile Golan Heights, or the Egyptians reclaiming the Sinai - that in both cases Israel took in a blatantly aggressive land grab - is all about the barbarian arabs trying to ethnically cleanse the poor jooos. If the arabs grabbed parts of Israel would they give it back? I'm not supporting the jews, but I'm sure the islamists aren't innocent either. Good question, Shakey. If another country captured Western Sydney in 1967 and refused to give it back despite a number of UN resolutions, would you forgive and forget? I’m curious. Your people have taken parts of Western Sydney. Look at Lakemba, Auburn and Guildford. They can have them anyway  because they were crapholes back then as they are now. Oh, I know, Shakey. I live here, remember? Have you moved out? Of course love. So you’ve moved out to live with the luvvies, eh? Thanks for that, Shakey. You surrendered. We’re still here. Surrendered!!! I didn't know there was a war on dear. I thought you belonged to the religion of peace. Exactly. I’m a Buddhist. Sorry, Shakey. I was under the impression you’ve been declaring Western Sydney a war zone since you came here last week. Moved to the North Shore, have you? I understand. We whites prefer to stand our ground - you’re probably one of those upwardly mobile curry-munchers. Effluent, innit. War zone. Oh no dear. That's in Syria fighting with ISIS.

We grew here, they flew here.

Where did you move to, Shakey?

Karnal wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 8:34pm:

Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:31pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:29pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:17pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:14pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:07pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:00pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 7:55pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 7:52pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:05pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:01pm: Shakey wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 5:52pm: Didn't a whole bunch of neighbouring countries get together a bunch of times in a bid to push the jews into the sea. Hardly a one sided affair, is it. Agreed - Israel dominated them in every single aspect, every single time. Plus they remain the sole nuclear armed power in the region. But sure, we can keep pretending that Syrians attempting to take back the fertile Golan Heights, or the Egyptians reclaiming the Sinai - that in both cases Israel took in a blatantly aggressive land grab - is all about the barbarian arabs trying to ethnically cleanse the poor jooos. If the arabs grabbed parts of Israel would they give it back? I'm not supporting the jews, but I'm sure the islamists aren't innocent either. Good question, Shakey. If another country captured Western Sydney in 1967 and refused to give it back despite a number of UN resolutions, would you forgive and forget? I’m curious. Your people have taken parts of Western Sydney. Look at Lakemba, Auburn and Guildford. They can have them anyway  because they were crapholes back then as they are now. Oh, I know, Shakey. I live here, remember? Have you moved out? Of course love. So you’ve moved out to live with the luvvies, eh? Thanks for that, Shakey. You surrendered. We’re still here. Surrendered!!! I didn't know there was a war on dear. I thought you belonged to the religion of peace. Exactly. I’m a Buddhist. Sorry, Shakey. I was under the impression you’ve been declaring Western Sydney a war zone since you came here last week. Moved to the North Shore, have you? I understand. We whites prefer to stand our ground - you’re probably one of those upwardly mobile curry-munchers. Effluent, innit. War zone. Oh no dear. That's in Syria fighting with ISIS. We grew here, they flew here. Where did you move to, Shakey?

Rooty Hill.

That’s strange. That’s exactly where Sparky used to live. I imagine he got all hoity-toity and moved out to "better himself".

What a hideous snob he is. What a traitor.

You stay right where you are, Shakey. If you see Sparky, tell him to.GET OUT of our country.

He can move to Jordan or Lebanon with all those traitorous Palestinians, eh?

Quote:

Everyone be in awe at the "control" the Palestinians have on the west bank - that is carved up by settlement regional borders (rendering some 50% of the land as Israeli sovereign territory), riddled with IDF checkpoints and Israeli-only bypass roads, no airspace and no control of any borders. Or in Gaza which is completely surrounded by a wall controlled by external powers, who impose a crippling blockade and restrict the entry of all goods.

That is part of taking responsibility for your own actions. If Israel could allow goods into Gaza without the inevitable outcome that more and bigger rockets get fired over that wall you complain about, they would. This is the outcome Hamas wants. They are in control in Gaza, and the Palestinians put them there.


Quote:

Please FD, give us all a good laugh and keep a straight face while you claim the Palestinian territories are not occupied.

They were, briefly. Israel pulled out, unilaterally. That's what an occupation looks like Gandalf. It is not the same thing as a blockade.

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2014 at 8:37pm:

They were, briefly. Israel pulled out, unilaterally. That's what an occupation looks like Gandalf. It is not the same thing as a blockade.

1. Israel occupies the west bank.

2. Israel maintains effective control of the Gaza strip - its borders, its agricultural land (buffer zones inside the strip are in fact still occupied), its coast and its airspace. Consequently, the unilateral withdrawal of Israeli troops and settlements means diddly squat to Gaza's occupied status under international law.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5^th, 2014 at 8:24pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 7:43pm: No Gandalf. Not on the basis of fear of ethnicity, but on the basis of fear of getting shot. Why is that so hard for you to understand Non-jews were forcibly removed from major urban centres. It is completely irrelevant the reason they were evicted, the fact is they were forced out on the basis of ethnicity (ie only one ethnicity was removed), and that is ethnic cleansing. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Do you have some aversion to saying (as Benny Morris and others have) that ethnic cleansing can be a morally justifiable action in the interests of self preservation? freediver wrote on Aug 5th, 2014 at 7:43pm: They are under their own control Gandalf. They elected Hamas remember? They are responsible for the consequences of their own actions. This is just more bullshit Muslim victimhood. It is Hamas who denies them human rights. It is Hamas who slaughters them if they protest against Hamas. Ah yes, I was wondering how long before this gem would come out. Everyone be in awe at the "control" the Palestinians have on the west bank - that is carved up by settlement regional borders (rendering some 50% of the land as Israeli sovereign territory), riddled with IDF checkpoints and Israeli-only bypass roads, no airspace and no control of any borders. Or in Gaza which is completely surrounded by a wall controlled by external powers, who impose a crippling blockade and restrict the entry of all goods. Please FD, give us all a good laugh and keep a straight face while you claim the Palestinian territories are not occupied.

Terrorism comes at a price Gandalf.
And the Palestinians have to pay that price.
The cage the Israeli's keep the Palestinians in is no different to the cage the Jordanians and Lebanese keep their Palestinians in.
The Palestinians should be content they weren't used for bayonet practice long ago.

CLFM I can respect your argument - *IF* , as it appears to me, you are not peddling the usual BS about Israel not targeting civilians.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 7^th, 2014 at 10:56pm:

CLFM I can respect your argument - *IF* , as it appears to me, you are not peddling the usual BS about Israel not targeting civilians.

Well for me (and I know the comment was aimed at CLFM) it's not a case of Israel 'targeting civilians'...more that they don't always not fire if the civilians are in the area. Every military force in history has done their best to avoid civilian casualties, but not at the expense of giving the enemy combatants a free pass.

Quote:

Israel maintains effective control of the Gaza strip - its borders, its agricultural land (buffer zones inside the strip are in fact still occupied), its coast and its airspace. Consequently, the unilateral withdrawal of Israeli troops and settlements means diddly squat to Gaza's occupied status under international law.

This is not "effective control" Gandalf. This is a blockade. Hamas is in control. They and the people supporting them are still responsible for their own decisions and actions.

the Israeli blockade is not exercising effective control of Gaza - what a joke.  ::)


freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2014 at 6:33pm:

Hamas is in control. They and the people supporting them are still responsible for their own decisions and actions.

So? Most occupations have at least a semi-autonomous local authority. Completely irrelevant to the issue of whether they are occupied though. Neither hamas or the people of Gaza have any ability to develop their own economy - because they exist in an economy that is entirely dependent on the external power who decides what comes in and out of the strip - ie Israel.

Quote:

So? Most occupations have at least a semi-autonomous local authority.

So Hamas is "semi-autonomous" of Israel?


Quote:

they exist in an economy that is entirely dependent on the external power who decides what comes in and out of the strip - ie Israel

Wrong.

freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2014 at 7:51pm:

Wrong.

Elaborate please.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 8^th, 2014 at 8:14pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 8th, 2014 at 7:51pm: Wrong. Elaborate please.

Egypt.

Egypt is their chief 'enabler'.

But for Egypt they would have no rockets to fire at civilian targets in Israel.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 8^th, 2014 at 8:14pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 8th, 2014 at 7:51pm: Wrong. Elaborate please.

No 'national' economy is entirely dependent on external trade.

freediver wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 9:02pm:

No 'national' economy is entirely dependent on external trade.

Sure, there's black markets courtesy of the tunnels - which is only to be expected in a society under complete walled blockade. But they are not sustainable or reliable.

A tunnel is still external trade. Most economies are dominated by internal trade - things produced and sold within the borders. It's a very simple point I am trying to make here - no 'national' economy is entirely dependent on external trade.

Gaza's domestic produce and industry exists entirely at the whim of Israel - who frequently destroy or deprive Gazan's access to. Thats kinda what I'm getting at with my "the occupation still exists" argument.

Of course. Dropping the odd bomb in response to rocket fire is occupation. And right now Barak Obama is sending in war planes to occupy northern Iraq and deprive the local Muslims of responsibility for their own actions.

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Aug 7^th, 2014 at 10:15pm:

Terrorism comes at a price Gandalf. And the Palestinians have to pay that price. The cage the Israeli's keep the Palestinians in is no different to the cage the Jordanians and Lebanese keep their Palestinians in. The Palestinians should be content they weren't used for bayonet practice long ago.

Well said.

The 'Palestinians' are regarded as pests wherever they have settled in the Middle East. They're not even given citizenship by their fellow Muslim Arabs.

Do you deliberately set out to ignore the issues FD, or has it just become habit?

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 7^th, 2014 at 10:56pm:

CLFM I can respect your argument - *IF* , as it appears to me, you are not peddling the usual BS about Israel not targeting civilians.

Of course Israel targets civilians.
Everyone is a civilian in Gaza because Palestine does not exist as a nation state and therefore has no recognised standing defence force.
And those same civilians who wake up every morning and think about how many Jews they can kill or kidnap today whether those same civilians are off duty policemen or bakers, shop assistants, whatever, are still civilians when they fire off their rockets into Israel.
And those civilians need to be buried six foot deep.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 12^th, 2014 at 11:00am:

Do you deliberately set out to ignore the issues FD, or has it just become habit?

One point at a time Gandalf. If you concede that Israel is not in fact occupying Gaza, that no economy is completely reliant on external trade, and that the Palestinians can in fact exercise choice and be held responsible for their own actions, then you are welcome to rephrase your your argument in a way that more closely reflects reality.

Gaza is under occupation, and has no control over their economy - for the very simple reasons outlined earlier.

"The millstones of FD and Gandalf grind slow, but they grind exceeding fine." (Euripides)

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 4:40pm:

Gaza is under occupation, and has no control over their economy - for the very simple reasons outlined earlier.

So tell us more about this occupation. How does it differ from a blockade? Did it end when Israel unilaterally withdrew recently?

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 6:30pm:

So tell us more about this occupation. How does it differ from a blockade? Did it end when Israel unilaterally withdrew recently?

"Withdrew" is a misnomer. Just about all the things that need to be sovereign for a country to be sovereign is owned by Israel - farmland, borders, airspace and exports. But most of all, anything that is "sovereign" in gaza, is sovereign entirely by the whim of Israel - who frequently decide when its not sovereign, and attack and destroy them at will.

Even when you run with the "but its all because Hamas are scum" argument - the idea that Gaza is not still occupied simply doesn't have legs.

Here's how "sovereign" the Gazan's are in regards to growing their own produce:


Quote:

. According to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Human Affairs (OCHA) the buffer zone takes up 17% of Gaza’s total land, making up to 35% of available farmland unsafe for Palestinians to use, with the areas nearest the border fence being the most restricted. Calling the boundaries of the zone ‘vague, unpredictable’ and ‘uncertain’, OCHA has divided the the zone into two danger grades: ‘no-go’ areas where Palestinians risk their lives if they enter as they are considered free fire zones by Israel (within 500 metres of the fence) and ‘high-risk’ areas, where the restricted access still has a severe consequences for farmers and where property destruction and levelling of the land occurs on a regular basis (within 500 and up to 1500 meters of the fence). These areas are kept under heavy surveillance by Israel, through the use of military border patrols and equipment as well as surveillance balloons and drone technology. There are regular incursions by Israeli troops into the buffer zone, sometimes as often as a few times a week.

http://palsolidarity.org/2014/07/farming-under-siege-working-the-land-in-gaza/

The "withdrawal" of Israel is a complete fallacy.

Quote:

"Withdrew" is a misnomer. Just about all the things that need to be sovereign for a country to be sovereign is owned by Israel - farmland, borders, airspace and exports.

So there were no sovereign states before airplanes and exports? And a border is traditionally where sovereign states cease to have control. If Gaza has farmland, why don't they use it for launching rockets rather than their mothers skirts? Weren't you, Annie and the other apologists arguing that the entire strip is densely populated urban area and that is the only reason Hamas fires rockets from among civilians?


Quote:

Even when you run with the "but its all because Hamas are scum" argument - the idea that Gaza is not still occupied simply doesn't have legs.

It is the absence of an actual occupation that removes the legs from the argument that there is an occupation.

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 8:59pm:

And a border is traditionally where sovereign states cease to have control.

Yes - as opposed to up to 1.5km inside the border.


freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 8:59pm:

If Gaza has farmland, why don't they use it for launching rockets rather than their mothers skirts?

Gee FD - maybe they do, or did, and thats why Israel established the buffer zone that runs up to 1.5km inside the border (about 1/3 of farmland is on the border with Israel).

Here's the "no-go" zone Israel created during the current assault:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtYWOZlCAAA1s98.png

almost half the entire strip - that Israel told Gazan's - don't work here, don't cultivate here, don't even live here - we're going to bomb the sh*t out of it.

Its not that this is a permanent arrangement, its the fact that Israel can, and do, decide what is and what isn't sovereign in Gaza entirely on their own whim. Israel bombed or shelled both the main power plant, as they did in 2009, as they will almost certainly do again within the next two years - plus a whole host of industrial facilities crucial for the Gazan economy.

In 2013 - supposedly when there was no war going on - Israel burst across the border with bulldozers and dug up a whole heap of crops. In 2009 - after the ceasefire for Cast Lead was in effect - Isreal burned about 200 thousand square metres of crops. Isreali human rights group BT Selem reports hundreds of Palestinians have been wounded or killed by Isreali live fire near the border, many of whom are simply farmers attending to their crops.

This is the reality Gazan's have to face. There is a very real physical Isreali presense on and inside Gaza's borders - even apart from the full Isreali control of airspace and imports/exports. But even more than that, Isreal can and do march in and destroy Gazan infrastructure whenever and wherever they want - regularly. They simply do not have any sort of sovereignty over their own lives or economy.

This constitutes an occupation by any definition of the word. You simply have no leg to stand on.

Gandalf I have a very good mate of mine who is currently in the IDF.

He's a British guy, but is a Jew and believes in the whole Zionism thing so serves his national service.
I spoke with him only last week as he is here for a family event and he pointed out to me that every single ceasefire has been broken by the Palestinians.
Every ceasefire iffered by Egypt and the UN has been accepted by Israel and turned down by the Palestinians.

I can't help but think that this is all of their own making.

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Here's the "no-go" zone Israel created during the current assault:

I notice it includes several big urbanised areas. Did they ethnically cleanse those areas?

Are they still occupying it?


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Gee FD - maybe they do, or did, and thats why Israel established the buffer zone that runs up to 1.5km inside the border (about 1/3 of farmland is on the border with Israel).

Of course they do, yet Muslims and their apologists insist it does not exist, and that is why Hamas fires rockets from urban areas. Depending on how you define it, the whole country is on the border. This is just meaningless spin.

It is still not an occupation Gandalf, and Gazans are still responsible for their own actions.

Is that your way of conceding the point FD?

Would you agree that a country in which a foreign neighbour conducts regular incursions and destroys infrastructure at will is not sovereign? Let alone a country that experiences this *PLUS* a full blockade complete with a foreign-controlled wall around their border - including a buffer zone inside their own territory?

One might even say such a country is under an occupation.

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Is that your way of conceding the point FD?

It is my way of asking a question. Karnal will explain.


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Would you agree that a country in which a foreign neighbour conducts regular incursions and destroys infrastructure at will is not sovereign?

Now I'm confused. Israel is conducting regular incursions into a country it already occupies?

And no I do not agree. Sovereign countries can be at war as often as they want. Just because they keep losing does not mean they are not sovereign. Normally it would, but Israel obviously doesn't want to occupy it. Neither does Egypt, or any other country.


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One might even say such a country is under an occupation.

Except of course for the fact that it is not occupied.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 4:40pm:

Gaza is under occupation, and has no control over their economy - for the very simple reasons outlined earlier.

Gaza is under occupation

Gaza is an enclosure - in which Hamas/Palestinians are controlled and confined.

Israel, rightfully, wants to control
1/ the type of materials that enter Gaza and Judea and Samaria, and,
2/ who moves through the border crossings into Israeli territory.

Because Hamas openly states         that it [Hamas] wants to destroy the state of Israel, and to murder every Jew within its borders!




Yadda said.....

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Recent history in Gaza has demonstrated to the world, that Hamas is - NOT - trying to build a viable nation in Gaza. Hamas's primary aim in Gaza, has always been,             to import military equipment into Gaza - so that Gaza becomes an armed ISLAMIC camp, from which to launch attacks against Gaza's - neighbour - Israel. Observing the behaviour of Hamas in Gaza - the Israelis soon concluded - that permitting open borders in Gaza would simply facilitate [more quickly] the single objective that Hamas wanted to achieve in Gaza - which is, bringing war materiel into Gaza. By now [2014] it must be obvious to everyone, except a dolt, that open borders in Gaza is simply going to facilitate - what Hamas wants to achieve [NOT NATION BUILDING] - BUT MORE CONFLICT [not less] WITH THE ISRAELIS.

Yadda said.....

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An analogy; Letting PREDATORS, like crocodiles, live together is not 'persecution', it is 'natural selection'. Crocodiles predating upon other crocodiles [and they do!], is not 'persecution', it is 'natural selection'. So when at the zoo, you have a new crocodile [a predator] arrive, the zoo keeper should put the crocodile into the crocodile enclosure. Persecution, would be putting the new crocodile in the sheep enclosure. That would be persecution, for the sheep. In the human family, moslems are predators. ISLAM teaches moslems predation [....upon those deemed to be non-moslems]. ISLAM teaches moslems that predation is lawful and 'natural' for themselves. "....those who reject Allah have no protector." Koran 47.008 v. 8-11 "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. " Koran 9.29 Google; house of war, Dar al-Harb Google; divisions of the world, in islam, Dar al-Harb

The human body too, is a means of confinement!!     ;)

When your body dies..........

Just so we're clear FD - your saying that if China built a wall right around Australia, established a buffer zone inside the walled territory, blocked everything coming in and out except what they allow, control our airspace AND conduct regular incursions to destroy Australian infrastructure anywhere and everywhere - at will - that would not constitute a Chinese occupation?

Yadda wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 10:52pm:

Gaza is an enclosure - in which Hamas/Palestinians are controlled and confined. Israel, rightfully, wants to control 1/ the type of materials that enter Gaza and Judea and Samaria, and, 2/ who moves through the border crossings into Israeli territory.

Otherwise known as an occupation.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 10:56pm:

Just so we're clear FD - your saying that if China built a wall right around Australia, established a buffer zone inside the walled territory, blocked everything coming in and out except what they allow, control our airspace AND conduct regular incursions to destroy Australian infrastructure anywhere and everywhere - at will - that would not constitute a Chinese occupation?

No no, it’s called Freeedom.

An occupation’s when your Muselman does it.

You know, like in Lakemba.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 10:56pm:

Just so we're clear FD - your saying that if China built a wall right around Australia, established a buffer zone inside the walled territory, blocked everything coming in and out except what they allow, control our airspace AND conduct regular incursions to destroy Australian infrastructure anywhere and everywhere - at will - that would not constitute a Chinese occupation?

There is no Israeli occupation of Gaza.


An occupation, is what moslems are engaged in, within some Australian suburbs.

Areas within some Australian suburbs, which are effectively no-go zones, for those who are not moslems.




Europe has had a much longer experience of moslem 'integration' into its societies.....

Google;
muslim no go zones in europe

Fatah and Hamas are occupying Judea and Samaria.

Palestinians should, and have a 'natural' right of return to their ancient homeland, Jordan.

At teh conclusion of the British Mandate of Palestine, the land reserved for Arab/moslems [that during the Ottoman occupation, were resident in the Jewish designated area], was the land east of the Jordan river.

The land west of the Jordan river, was intended to be established as a homeland for the Jewish people.

Yadda: Gaza is not occupied - but (at least some of) Australia is.

Yes, he really did say that.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 11:17pm:

Yadda: Gaza is not occupied - but (at least some of) Australia is. Yes, he really did say that.

Yes, he did.



ISLAM is not compatible with Australian laws.

Moslems are not compatible with Australian society.



Yadda said....

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Dictionary; Muslim = = a follower of Islam. EVERY moslem, is a follower - of ISLAM. EVERY moslem, is a member of the moslem community. And whether the moslem refers to himself as being a member of, Hamas, or the Taliban, or Al-Qaeda, or Boko Haram, or ISIS, or Al Shabaab, or [in Australia] Brothers for Life, OR SIMPLY, AS BEING A, MOSLEM; ....the moslem is the member of 'a group of people' who choose to follow a philosophy [ISLAM], which teaches them [moslems], that it is lawful for them [moslems] to seek to subjugate [i.e. enslave] or murder all of 'disbelieving' mankind.

The right to 'lawfully' kill those who are not moslem [which ISLAM give sanction to], is what moslems choose, as being acceptable.....


Mild mannered - Mohammed Morsi -
Ex-President of Egypt

Watch the words coming out of his lips.....

"The Koran is our constitution"
"The Prophet Muhammad is our leader"
"Jihad is our path"
"AND DEATH FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH IS OUR MOST LOFTY ASPIRATION!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NtiUMOFFg




ISLAM sanctions [makes LAWFUL] murder.


"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."
ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb

Yadda wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 11:09pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13th, 2014 at 10:56pm: Just so we're clear FD - your saying that if China built a wall right around Australia, established a buffer zone inside the walled territory, blocked everything coming in and out except what they allow, control our airspace AND conduct regular incursions to destroy Australian infrastructure anywhere and everywhere - at will - that would not constitute a Chinese occupation? There is no Israeli occupation of Gaza. An occupation, is what moslems are engaged in, within some Australian suburbs. Areas within some Australian suburbs, which are effectively no-go zones, for those who are not moslems.

I know. I have to go through a checkpoint to visit the local IGA.

I blame the Parramatta City Council.

Yadda wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 11:21pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13th, 2014 at 11:17pm: Yadda: Gaza is not occupied - but (at least some of) Australia is. Yes, he really did say that. Yes, he did. ISLAM is not compatible with Australian laws. Moslems not compatible with Australian society.

They have their own planning laws, their own health regulations, their own local and state governments.

Typical.

I blame Morsi.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 10:56pm:

Just so we're clear FD - your saying that if China built a wall right around Australia, established a buffer zone inside the walled territory, blocked everything coming in and out except what they allow, control our airspace AND conduct regular incursions to destroy Australian infrastructure anywhere and everywhere - at will - that would not constitute a Chinese occupation?

No, because we would not be occupied, hence it would not be an occupation. Not if we continued to elect our own leaders and they continued to have effective authority within the country. If the Chinese were to blockade us, that would be a blockade.

There is a reason we have different words to describe different things.

The blockade of Gaza will continue while the rocket attacks continue, because otherwise it is inevitable that Hamas would get their hands on more powerful weapons to lob over the border. That, however, is not the same as an occupation. They Palestinians are still free to elect leaders with a charter of destroy Israel and who do their best to achieve that goal. Or not.

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 7:39pm:

Not if we continued to elect our own leaders and they continued to have effective authority within the country. If the Chinese were to blockade us, that would be a blockade.

But its not just a blockade - they have buffer zones inside, and unilaterally decide what structures and infrastructure is allowed to remain - at will.

Human RIghts groups as well as the UN disagree with you.

from Isreali human rights organization BTselelm:


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The High Court has held contrary to Israel 's claim, stating that the creation and continuation of an occupation does not depend on the existence of an institution administering the lives of the local population, but only on the extent of its military control in the area. Furthermore, a certain area may be deemed occupied even if the army does not have a fixed presence throughout the whole area. Leading experts in humanitarian law maintain that effective control may also exist when the army controls key points in a particular area, reflecting its power over the entire area and preventing an alternative central government from formulating and carrying out its powers. The broad scope of Israeli control in the Gaza Strip, which exists despite the lack of a physical presence of IDF soldiers in the territory, creates a reasonable basis for the assumption that this control amounts to "effective control," such that the laws of occupation continue to apply.

http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/israels_obligations

Hardly any occupations in modern history existed without some sort of quasi-autonomous local regime. Iraq under the Bremer regime was a most unusual exception. The correct definition of a region subject to occupation under International Law is not dependent on the existence or otherwise of a local authority capable of running the day to day administration of the region - but rather the extent of a foreign military's "effective control" of the region in question. And in Gaza's case, the effective control Israel has over Gaza is total.

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But its not just a blockade - they have buffer zones inside, and unilaterally decide what structures and infrastructure is allowed to remain - at will.

Hamas fire rockets at Israel. Unilaterally. At will even, when they can get their hands on them. Israel fires back. Does this mean Israel is not a soveriegn state either?

You are making the same mistake as people who whine about us using the word terrorism to describe what Muslims do, and war to describe the invasions lead by the US. They insist this is some kind of propaganda, yet they are the only ones who seem to think terrorism=bad, war=good, therefor we must equate war with terrorism so people realise it is a bad thing.

A blocakade is different from an occupation. This does not mean occupation=bad, blockade=good. It is what it is.


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Hardly any occupations in modern history existed without some sort of quasi-autonomous local regime.

You have used that term before. Is Hamas "quasi-autonomous" of Israel? Do you think they are Israeli stooges? You keep dancing around this concept.


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The correct definition of a region subject to occupation under International Law is not dependent on the existence or otherwise of a local authority capable of running the day to day administration of the region

Sorry I didn't realise were playing at being lawyers. I thought we were just speaking English.


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but rather the extent of a foreign military's "effective control" of the region in question

That makes sense.


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And in Gaza's case, the effective control Israel has over Gaza is total.

That's just stupid. Israel has fairly tight control over the boarders. That's what a blockade is. To describe Israel's control over what goes on domestically as "total" is a complete rejection of reality.

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Hamas fire rockets at Israel. Unilaterally. At will even, when they can get their hands on them.

;D Well gee whiz FD - acts of resistance/terrorism tend to happen in what you term as occupations too. Does that mean all these occupations are not really occupations? Perhaps we should dispense with the term altogether then.


freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

A blocakade is different from an occupation. This does not mean occupation=bad, blockade=good. It is what it is.

Yes it is what it is - and by the standard definition under international law - and agreed by all the major international human rights organizations,, not to mention the UN itself - Gaza is occupied.

But I totally agree - saying its a blockade rather than an occupation shouldn't automatically lead us to think that its therefore "good" or even better than an occupation. But you are being entirely disingenuous here - it is patently obvious that you are guilty of this exact tendency. Your entire theme revolves around arguing that because there is no occupation, Hamas has no one to blame but themselves for the mess Gaza is in. Israel is not culpable because they "withdrew", and are no longer involved in the day to day business of Gaza - which would presumably be entirely different if Israel still maintained your idea of an occupation.


freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

You have used that term before. Is Hamas "quasi-autonomous" of Israel? Do you think they are Israeli stooges? You keep dancing around this concept.

I ignored it because I thought it was stating the bleeding obvious. Of course Hamas are not Israeli stooges.


freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Sorry I didn't realise were playing at being lawyers. I thought we were just speaking English.

It is what it is remember? If we are not using "lawyer speak" on such matters as what is and what isn't an occupation of a country (which can only be defined through international law), then we would agree to simply discard such meaningless notions. Gaza is "occupied" as per international law - there is a consensus on that. But of course you are free to discard international law and call it a monkey's bum for all I care.


freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

That's just stupid. Israel has fairly tight control over the boarders. That's what a blockade is. To describe Israel's control over what goes on domestically as "total" is a complete rejection of reality.

Isreal controls a buffer zone well *INSIDE* the borders - a point which you are doing your damnedest to ignore. Also, to describe *ANY* occupation as the occupier having "total" control of what goes on domestically - is a complete rejection of reality.

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Well gee whiz FD - acts of resistance/terrorism tend to happen in what you term as occupations too. Does that mean all these occupations are not really occupations? Perhaps we should dispense with the term altogether then.

Perhaps they are occupying each other. That makes more sense, doesn't it Gandalf?


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But you are being entirely disingenuous here - it is patently obvious that you are guilty of this exact tendency. Your entire theme revolves around arguing that because there is no occupation, Hamas has no one to blame but themselves for the mess Gaza is in. Israel is not culpable because they "withdrew", and are no longer involved in the day to day business of Gaza - which would presumably be entirely different if Israel still maintained your idea of an occupation.

It would mean the Palestinians aren't responsible for electing into power a bunch of scumbags whose only achievement is inflicting endless misery on them.


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I ignored it because I thought it was stating the bleeding obvious. Of course Hamas are not Israeli stooges.

So why do you keep pointing out historic use of "quasi-autonomous" regimes? Is Hamas "quasi-autonomous" of Israel?


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Gaza is "occupied" as per international law - there is a consensus on that.

Crap.


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Isreal controls a buffer zone well *INSIDE* the borders - a point which you are doing your damnedest to ignore.

There is ongoing conflict. Hence there is a no-man's land. Israel makes sure as much of that no-mans land as possible is on the other side of the border. That is still not an occupation, any more than if Israeli farmers moved away from the border that would mean Hamas is occupying Israel.


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Also, to describe *ANY* occupation as the occupier having "total" control of what goes on domestically - is a complete rejection of reality.

I agree, totally. Yet that is exactly how you described Israel's "occupation".

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 8:47am:

Perhaps they are occupying each other. That makes more sense, doesn't it Gandalf?

No - because Hamas has not built a wall around Israel, occupy buffer zones inside Isreal, control their air space - etc etc etc


freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 8:47am:

It would mean the Palestinians aren't responsible for electing into power a bunch of scumbags whose only achievement is inflicting endless misery on them.

Yes - you are absolving Israel's responsibility for helping create the destruction and turmoil that spawns such distasteful groups as Hamas - thanks for confirming.


freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 8:47am:

So why do you keep pointing out historic use of "quasi-autonomous" regimes? Is Hamas "quasi-autonomous" of Israel?

Hamas is only "autonomous" insofar as Israel allows them - as an occupying power - to remain the viable administrator of the territory they have "effective control" over.  As per standard practice for occupations. But of course as explained before, its not in Israel's interests to create a power vacuum that would be filled by someone even worse than Hamas.


freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 8:47am:

Crap.

There is an international consensus - the fact that you happen to disagree with it doesn't make it not so. Stop talking out of your behind FD.


freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 8:47am:

I agree, totally. Yet that is exactly how you described Israel's "occupation".

Rubbish. They have "effective control" of the territory - militarily. I never said Israel controls the day to day administration of the territory - in fact I've been arguing the exact opposite. Your flailing aimlessly FD.

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Hamas is only "autonomous" insofar as Israel allows them - as an occupying power - to remain the viable administrator of the territory they have "effective control" over.

By this logic very few countries are sovereign, because they exist at the whim of far more powerful neighbours. An occupation requires an occupation, not a potential to occupy.