Has this on the bottom of his page as a quote.

""Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013."

Problem.

"Two-thirds of British terror suspects are from middle-class backgrounds and those who become suicide bombers are often highly educated, "

"The report added: ‘Where data is available, two-thirds came from middle or upper-middle-class backgrounds, showing there is no simplistic relationship between poverty and involvement in Islamist extremism".

“Terrorists are not just from slums – statistically, a disproportionate number of global jihadis come from a higher education background,” said Nawaz, who was formerly a member of the Hizbut Tahrir (HT). He quit the group to found Khudi, which works to counter extremism"

More than 95 percent of all suicide bombing attacks conducted worldwide are carried out by Muslim extremists

Well done Wally1. Have you fed the fairies at the bottom of your garden today?

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Terrorism

Adamant, the creature with zero credibility posts again.   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

You’ve accidentally started a very interesting debate, Adamant. Suicide bombers and terrorists are often extremely well educated.

The Glasgow Airport bombing was an enigma to.me. How could doctors, who had spent years training and working to save lives and treat sick people, try to blow up.an airport?

Thoughts?

I blame Islam.

Oh, I know.

Still, it is great that such an interesting debate was started accidentally, no?

freediver wrote on Aug 12^th, 2014 at 8:16am:

Still, it is great that such an interesting debate was started accidentally, no?

It certainly is, FD. You wouldn't see this in Arabia.

freediver wrote on Aug 12^th, 2014 at 8:16am:

Still, it is great that such an interesting debate was started accidentally, no?

Why attack Gandalf for his "lies" yet ignore Adamant's?  Oh, thats right, G is a "Musellman", that explains it all, doesn't it?   :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

|dev|null wrote on Aug 12^th, 2014 at 2:08pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 12th, 2014 at 8:16am: Still, it is great that such an interesting debate was started accidentally, no? Why attack Gandalf for his "lies" yet ignore Adamant's?  Oh, thats right, G is a "Musellman", that explains it all, doesn't it?   :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

Exactly. Adamant is one of us. He blames Islam too.

Google: Taqiyya.

+++

The wiki article quotes an Mi5 report to support the view that islamic terrorists are predominantly well adjusted, sociable and "mainstream" muslims.

Yet another - more relevant - Mi5 report on terrorist profiling stated that:


Quote:

Far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1

I'm guessing wikiislam hasn't felt the urge to quote this particular report  :D

Don't know why it is Kernal, most of the western muslim terrorists appear to be have been born to migrants from another country or converts. Stands to reason that they would receive a better education in the west than say Rage Boy had. The French guy Adlene Hicheur was brilliant by all accounts, just wanted give Algerian terrorists a nuclear bomb that's all. Crab bait (bin Laden) went to Uni. Most of the London train bombers had higher education in one form or another.

The one thing they have in common is the same indoctrinated religion.

Bet you Gandalf is doing the same thing to his kids, spreading the next round of killing on to an even younger generation.

Why is it a lot of parents cant keep their pathetic religious beliefs to themselves so the vicious circle had the chance of imploding.

https://www.google.com.au/#q=french+muslim+nuclear+scientists

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden#Personal_life

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 12^th, 2014 at 3:13pm:

The wiki article quotes an Mi5 report to support the view that islamic terrorists are predominantly well adjusted, sociable and "mainstream" muslims. Yet another - more relevant - Mi5 report on terrorist profiling stated that: Quote: Far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1 I'm guessing wikiislam hasn't felt the urge to quote this particular report  :D

Gandy, how do you, a Muslim, tell whether anyone has a 'well-established religious identity? Having niqabi wives and praying  all the time and saying, like,  inshallah  as if it was, like, like? Because those jihadi boys in Syria at present seem to have very well-established religious identities.

Does every act of violent jihad catch you by surprise? Or can you tell the 'tiny minority' from the 'vast majority' before the blood starts flowing?  If yes, how do you do it?

It seems to me that telling the "tiny minority" from the 'vast majority" before the blood starts flowing is a bit like chicken sexing - some people can do it but nobody knows how they do it.


Elsewhere in the news...
Today in the paper we have Dr Rifi, a doctor in Bankstown, stepping up to dissuade Muslim youth from becoming radicalised. He appears with his two sons, called Faizal and  - Jihad. He might run for office in the area and one of his campaign opponents might be Principal Jihad Dib.
http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2014/08/11/1227021/107794-ae2042b6-2122-11e4-b56d-3a1fe581cea9.jpg
Islamic community leader Jamal Rifi, with his sons Faisal and Jihad in Sydney, is urging Muslim parents to protect their children from radical influences.

The ones called Jihad seem to be the good ones. Who knew??

Adamant wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 4:58pm:

Has this on the bottom of his page as a quote. ""Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013." Problem. "Two-thirds of British terror suspects are from middle-class backgrounds and those who become suicide bombers are often highly educated, " "The report added: ‘Where data is available, two-thirds came from middle or upper-middle-class backgrounds, showing there is no simplistic relationship between poverty and involvement in Islamist extremism". “Terrorists are not just from slums – statistically, a disproportionate number of global jihadis come from a higher education background,” said Nawaz, who was formerly a member of the Hizbut Tahrir (HT). He quit the group to found Khudi, which works to counter extremism" More than 95 percent of all suicide bombing attacks conducted worldwide are carried out by Muslim extremists Well done Wally1. Have you fed the fairies at the bottom of your garden today? http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Terrorism

Just after 11 September, there was a report written by the FBI's chief profiler which pointed out that the common element amongst the hi-jackers was their sense of alienation from both their traditional societies because of their educations and Western society which rejected them because of their origins.  This had resulted in them turning to radical Islam which was more than willing to give them a home and acceptance and use their indoctrination as a means of creating suicide Terrorists.

As MI5 has pointed out, traditional religion tends to be a barrier to radicalisation, giving the adherents something to fall back on when they feel rejected or alienated from society.  The problem is that many Westerners, intolerant of the "other" would reject Muslims out of Xenophobic fear anyway.   ::)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZS6snFGI9kE/U-i15euZCiI/AAAAAAACszc/-yIooFyI3NY/s1600/theo3.jpg

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 12^th, 2014 at 8:25pm:

Just after 11 September, there was a report written by the FBI's chief profiler which pointed out that the common element amongst the hi-jackers was their sense of alienation from both their traditional societies because of their educations and Western society which rejected them because of their origins.  This had resulted in them turning to radical Islam which was more than willing to give them a home and acceptance and use their indoctrination as a means of creating suicide Terrorists. As MI5 has pointed out, traditional religion tends to be a barrier to radicalisation, giving the adherents something to fall back on when they feel rejected or alienated from society.  The problem is that many Westerners, intolerant of the "other" would reject Muslims out of Xenophobic fear anyway.   ::)

Is there anything you wouldn't capitulate to as an opening gambit?

Anything??


You are a joke about yourself - squishy, reflexively submissive, dishonest, spineless. You simply stand for your own enemies - people who have no time for you.
Sad, pathetic cocksvcking of crocodiles who would have no room for you and would kill you anyway.

Adamant wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 4:58pm:

Has this on the bottom of his page as a quote. ""Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013." Problem. "Two-thirds of British terror suspects are from middle-class backgrounds and those who become suicide bombers are often highly educated, " "The report added: ‘Where data is available, two-thirds came from middle or upper-middle-class backgrounds, showing there is no simplistic relationship between poverty and involvement in Islamist extremism". “Terrorists are not just from slums – statistically, a disproportionate number of global jihadis come from a higher education background,” said Nawaz, who was formerly a member of the Hizbut Tahrir (HT). He quit the group to found Khudi, which works to counter extremism" More than 95 percent of all suicide bombing attacks conducted worldwide are carried out by Muslim extremists Well done Wally1. Have you fed the fairies at the bottom of your garden today? http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Terrorism

Religion is a sickness that even intelligent people can acquire.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RT6rL2UroE

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 12^th, 2014 at 3:13pm:

The wiki article quotes an Mi5 report to support the view that islamic terrorists are predominantly well adjusted, sociable and "mainstream" muslims. Yet another - more relevant - Mi5 report on terrorist profiling stated that: Quote: Far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1 I'm guessing wikiislam hasn't felt the urge to quote this particular report  :D

This is a good point Gandalf. Just as born again Christians are more annoying, born again Muslims are more likely to blow up a bus.

So all we have to do to stop buses blowing up is stop Islam spreading?

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 9:59am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 12th, 2014 at 3:13pm: The wiki article quotes an Mi5 report to support the view that islamic terrorists are predominantly well adjusted, sociable and "mainstream" muslims. Yet another - more relevant - Mi5 report on terrorist profiling stated that: Quote: Far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1 I'm guessing wikiislam hasn't felt the urge to quote this particular report  :D This is a good point Gandalf. Just as born again Christians are more annoying, born again Muslims are more likely to blow up a bus. So all we have to do to stop buses blowing up is stop Islam spreading?

You provide the answer to your own question, FD.  What we need to stop is the spread of radical "born again" Islam, not the old style, conservative, Islam.   ::)

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 12^th, 2014 at 3:13pm:

The wiki article quotes an Mi5 report to support the view that islamic terrorists are predominantly well adjusted, sociable and "mainstream" muslims. Yet another - more relevant - Mi5 report on terrorist profiling stated that: Quote: Far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1 I'm guessing wikiislam hasn't felt the urge to quote this particular report  :D

I found this surprising, but I'm not sure why. It makes sense. I guess that it's the same mentality that causes people to join gangs. Quite confronting when you think about it. Do you think there should be a particular focus for dealing with disaffected Muslim youth from non-religious backgrounds?

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 8:04pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 13th, 2014 at 9:59am: polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 12th, 2014 at 3:13pm: The wiki article quotes an Mi5 report to support the view that islamic terrorists are predominantly well adjusted, sociable and "mainstream" muslims. Yet another - more relevant - Mi5 report on terrorist profiling stated that: Quote: Far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1 I'm guessing wikiislam hasn't felt the urge to quote this particular report  :D This is a good point Gandalf. Just as born again Christians are more annoying, born again Muslims are more likely to blow up a bus. So all we have to do to stop buses blowing up is stop Islam spreading? You provide the answer to your own question, FD.  What we need to stop is the spread of radical "born again" Islam, not the old style, conservative, Islam.   ::)

Do we? I would have thought we just needed to stop people blowing up busses, but that’s just me.

Seeing as the busses seem to be staying in one piece,  maybe we need to move onto the Afghan camel drivers.

Thoughts?

Annie Anthrax wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 8:15pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 12th, 2014 at 3:13pm: The wiki article quotes an Mi5 report to support the view that islamic terrorists are predominantly well adjusted, sociable and "mainstream" muslims. Yet another - more relevant - Mi5 report on terrorist profiling stated that: Quote: Far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1 I'm guessing wikiislam hasn't felt the urge to quote this particular report  :D I found this surprising, but I'm not sure why. It makes sense. I guess that it's the same mentality that causes people to join gangs. Quite confronting when you think about it. Do you think there should be a particular focus for dealing with disaffected Muslim youth from non-religious backgrounds?

Why doesn't every Muslim leader in the world stand up & say
that hacking peoples heads off & mass executions are wrong?

The horror is off the scale.

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 8:04pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 13th, 2014 at 9:59am: polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 12th, 2014 at 3:13pm: The wiki article quotes an Mi5 report to support the view that islamic terrorists are predominantly well adjusted, sociable and "mainstream" muslims. Yet another - more relevant - Mi5 report on terrorist profiling stated that: Quote: Far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1 I'm guessing wikiislam hasn't felt the urge to quote this particular report  :D This is a good point Gandalf. Just as born again Christians are more annoying, born again Muslims are more likely to blow up a bus. So all we have to do to stop buses blowing up is stop Islam spreading? You provide the answer to your own question, FD.  What we need to stop is the spread of radical "born again" Islam, not the old style, conservative, Islam.   ::)

You mean the head hacking Islam of Muhammed the warmonger?

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 9:58pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 13th, 2014 at 8:04pm: freediver wrote on Aug 13th, 2014 at 9:59am: polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 12th, 2014 at 3:13pm: The wiki article quotes an Mi5 report to support the view that islamic terrorists are predominantly well adjusted, sociable and "mainstream" muslims. Yet another - more relevant - Mi5 report on terrorist profiling stated that: Quote: Far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1 I'm guessing wikiislam hasn't felt the urge to quote this particular report  :D This is a good point Gandalf. Just as born again Christians are more annoying, born again Muslims are more likely to blow up a bus. So all we have to do to stop buses blowing up is stop Islam spreading? You provide the answer to your own question, FD.  What we need to stop is the spread of radical "born again" Islam, not the old style, conservative, Islam.   ::) You mean the head hacking Islam of Muhammed the warmonger?

Good to see you following George Brandis' advice, FD.

How about trying to discuss it in a more on topic, less confrontational style for a change or is that too hard?

I think we need to address is the spread of radical Islam.  The alienation of second or even third generation Muslim immigrants is something that attitudes like yours cause and that drives them straight into the arms of the radicals.   We've seen similar problems with other immigrant groups, with the second generation often feeling alienated from both their parent's culture and rejected and harried by the dominant white, Anglo-Saxon/Celtic settler culture.  This has resulted in higher than normal criminal rates amongst them.  We've managed to address (or largely ignore) that problem and it's righted itself.  Muslim youngsters seem to need more, not less help and accepting them and their culture may well help.  Of course, I realise suggesting that to someone acts and talks the way you do is more than likely falling on deaf ears but hey, at least it's being said.   ::)

Quote:

I think we need to address is the spread of radical Islam.  The alienation of second or even third generation Muslim immigrants is something that attitudes like yours cause and that drives them straight into the arms of the radicals.

So we need to make more of an effort to appease terroristsd in case they blow up busses and we only have ourselves to blame?


Quote:

We've seen similar problems with other immigrant groups

Which immigrant groups were ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?


Quote:

This has resulted in higher than normal criminal rates amongst them.  We've managed to address (or largely ignore) that problem and it's righted itself.  Muslim youngsters seem to need more, not less help and accepting them and their culture may well help.

What kind of help are you suggesting?

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 9:58pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 13th, 2014 at 8:04pm: freediver wrote on Aug 13th, 2014 at 9:59am: polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 12th, 2014 at 3:13pm: The wiki article quotes an Mi5 report to support the view that islamic terrorists are predominantly well adjusted, sociable and "mainstream" muslims. Yet another - more relevant - Mi5 report on terrorist profiling stated that: Quote: Far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1 I'm guessing wikiislam hasn't felt the urge to quote this particular report  :D This is a good point Gandalf. Just as born again Christians are more annoying, born again Muslims are more likely to blow up a bus. So all we have to do to stop buses blowing up is stop Islam spreading? You provide the answer to your own question, FD.  What we need to stop is the spread of radical "born again" Islam, not the old style, conservative, Islam.   ::) You mean the head hacking Islam of Muhammed the warmonger?

Not sure, FD. Isn’t there an article somewhere on Muhammed’s ban on mutilating corpses?

Please get back with a summary.

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 12:33pm:

Quote: I think we need to address is the spread of radical Islam.  The alienation of second or even third generation Muslim immigrants is something that attitudes like yours cause and that drives them straight into the arms of the radicals. So we need to make more of an effort to appease terroristsd in case they blow up busses and we only have ourselves to blame?

I’m confused, FD. Isn’t it more in case they become Afghan camel drivers?

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 12:33pm:

Quote: I think we need to address is the spread of radical Islam.  The alienation of second or even third generation Muslim immigrants is something that attitudes like yours cause and that drives them straight into the arms of the radicals. So we need to make more of an effort to appease terroristsd in case they blow up busses and we only have ourselves to blame?

No and you know that is not what I mean.  You are being deliberately obtuse, FD.

I am suggesting that you could go some way towards attempting to understand and accept ordinary, everyday, moderate Muslims more and not reject them out of hand merely because they are of that faith.   That rejection is what alienates them and drives them into the arms of the fundamentalists, FD.   ::)

Your attitude is one of bigotry - if it is Muslim it is bad, if they are Muslim they are dishonest.  I'm just waiting for you to declare that you think they "come here and steal our jobs and break our windows and rape our women..."   ::)


Quote:

[quote]We've seen similar problems with other immigrant groups

Which immigrant groups were ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?
[/quote]

No immigrant group is "ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy".  Individuals may be but the entire Muslim community?  What planet do you live on, FD, really?  'cause it sure isn't the Earth.  I've never met a Muslim opposed to "freedom and democracy" and I've met a fairly wide cross section.  You speak as if this is what the majority of Muslims believe.  ::)

It's also obvious you've never grown up with southern European immigrants.  Many of their kids in the 1960s and 70s were tearaways, often in trouble with the law, involved in minor crime, drug dealing, etc., as they rebelled against both their parents and the wider community from which they felt alienated.


Quote:

[quote]This has resulted in higher than normal criminal rates amongst them.  We've managed to address (or largely ignore) that problem and it's righted itself.  Muslim youngsters seem to need more, not less help and accepting them and their culture may well help.

What kind of help are you suggesting?[/quote]

Perhaps greater funding for community organisations?  Greater provision of social services?  Help for their parents and their community leaders to shore up their authority?  Why not ask the Muslims?  I'm sure they could tell you what they need or want.

I've read many times that one of the reasons why the Lebanese in particular have felt alienated from the wider community is because they were lumped down in (primarily) Sydney and ignored by the Government(s) and essentially expected to sink or swim.   That obviously didn't work out all that well, now did it?

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 7:28pm:

No immigrant group is "ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy".  Individuals may be but the entire Muslim community?  What planet do you live on, FD, really?

Does ANY group have recognisable characteristics - or are we all just atoms and the idea of a particular 'community' is just a social construct, as you like to maintain, Hot Breasts?

In which case what makes a "Muslim community". Why don't we stop this stupid charade and treat everyone as individuals REGARDLESS of their socially constructed yet non-existent group identity??

Either they are "Muslims" with all the dreadful baggage that comes with that - or they are individuals with no special pleading about their primitive community customs.



You can't have them as a community when you give them the benefits and treat them as individuals when avoiding the responsibilities, Titts.

It's one or the other both ways.

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 7:28pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 14th, 2014 at 12:33pm: Quote: I think we need to address is the spread of radical Islam.  The alienation of second or even third generation Muslim immigrants is something that attitudes like yours cause and that drives them straight into the arms of the radicals. So we need to make more of an effort to appease terroristsd in case they blow up busses and we only have ourselves to blame? No and you know that is not what I mean.  You are being deliberately obtuse, FD.

Thats actually true Brian - FD really does know what you mean - because he said pretty much the exact same thing himself:


freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2007 at 5:56pm:

What we need to do is stop alienating the entire muslim community and work with them towards the goals we have in common. The more we tar them all with the same brush, the more we push weaker individuals towards extremism.

Quote:

I am suggesting that you could go some way towards attempting to understand and accept ordinary, everyday, moderate Muslims more and not reject them out of hand merely because they are of that faith.   That rejection is what alienates them and drives them into the arms of the fundamentalists, FD.

I do exactly that, every day.


Quote:

No immigrant group is "ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy".

Many Muslims are.


Quote:

Individuals may be but the entire Muslim community?

The Pew society did a pretty good job of asking entire communities, with some rather disturbing results. I stick to asking individuals. I get pretty much the same results.


Quote:

I've never met a Muslim opposed to "freedom and democracy" and I've met a fairly wide cross section.

Yes you have. You were afraid to talk about it with them.


Quote:

You speak as if this is what the majority of Muslims believe.

You really should take a look at that Pew survey.


Quote:

It's also obvious you've never grown up with southern European immigrants

Wogs? I know how you feel Brian.


Quote:

Many of their kids in the 1960s and 70s were tearaways, often in trouble with the law, involved in minor crime, drug dealing, etc., as they rebelled against both their parents and the wider community from which they felt alienated.

Did they set up a southern european state in southern europe where they raped all the women who were the wrong type of wog? Because then you could draw a parallel with ISIS and Muslims, couldn't you? That would be convenient.


Quote:

Perhaps greater funding for community organisations?

Awesome idea. Give Muslims money to stop them being terrorists. Like sit down money. We can call it no-blowing-up-bus money. Maybe they could use it to educate their children, to replace all the federal government funds siphoned off by the AFIC and various other highly respected Muslim community leaders.


Quote:

Greater provision of social services?  Help for their parents and their community leaders to shore up their authority?  Why not ask the Muslims?  I'm sure they could tell you what they need or want.

I think your first answer was best - more money. Who doesn't want that? Has there ever been a problem we couldn't solve with handouts?

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:39pm:

Quote: I am suggesting that you could go some way towards attempting to understand and accept ordinary, everyday, moderate Muslims more and not reject them out of hand merely because they are of that faith.   That rejection is what alienates them and drives them into the arms of the fundamentalists, FD. I do exactly that, every day.

Really?   ::)


Quote:

[quote]No immigrant group is "ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy".

Many Muslims are.
[/quote]

Ah, I note the sudden use of a qualification there, FD!

Suddenly it goes from all Muslims to "many Muslims". 

How many?  Do you have firm numbers?  Or are these like Adamant's statistics, something you're extracting from some orifice or other?   ::)


Quote:

[quote]Individuals may be but the entire Muslim community?

The Pew society did a pretty good job of asking entire communities, with some rather disturbing results. I stick to asking individuals. I get pretty much the same results.
[/quote]

Yet, when I ask individuals and groups of Muslims I get very different results, FD.   I've served with, worked with, studied with and taught Muslims for over 30 years, and none have expressed the opinions you claim are commonplace amongst Muslims.


Quote:

[quote]I've never met a Muslim opposed to "freedom and democracy" and I've met a fairly wide cross section.

Yes you have. You were afraid to talk about it with them.
[/quote]

A single word describes my opinion of that claim, FD.  It starts with B and describes bull excreta.   ::)

How the hell would you know what I've said or not said to the many Muslims I've known over the years?   ::)


Quote:

[quote]You speak as if this is what the majority of Muslims believe.

You really should take a look at that Pew survey.
[/quote]

Which one?  I know of several.  They provide interesting snapshots of Muslim opinion, FD.  That opinion, like all communities' opinion changes according to events.  I'd hope you wouldn't assume that one survey is the be all and end all of Muslim opinion?    ::)


Quote:

[quote]It's also obvious you've never grown up with southern European immigrants

Wogs? I know how you feel Brian.
[/quote]

Racist as well as bigoted?  Oh, my, FD, you reveal so much...  ::)


Quote:

[quote]Many of their kids in the 1960s and 70s were tearaways, often in trouble with the law, involved in minor crime, drug dealing, etc., as they rebelled against both their parents and the wider community from which they felt alienated.

Did they set up a southern european state in southern europe where they raped all the women who were the wrong type of wog? Because then you could draw a parallel with ISIS and Muslims, couldn't you? That would be convenient.
[/quote]

Forgotten the Balkan Wars of the 1990s, FD?   Everything IS is doing or has done in Syria and Iraq, happened or worse, in Yugoslavia when that country broke up.  IS has yet to build concentration camps though, as far as I am aware, where they set out to starve "undesirable" people (primarily men and boys) to death.  Amazing how myopic your view of history is, isn't it, FD?   ::) 


Quote:

[quote]Perhaps greater funding for community organisations?

Awesome idea. Give Muslims money to stop them being terrorists. Like sit down money. We can call it no-blowing-up-bus money. Maybe they could use it to educate their children, to replace all the federal government funds siphoned off by the AFIC and various other highly respected Muslim community leaders.
[/quote]

No, FD, that is not what I just proposed and your deliberate misconstruing simply shows the depths of your hatred for everybody Muslim.   Try again and read it slowly this time with an open mind, OK?   ::)


Quote:

[quote]Greater provision of social services?  Help for their parents and their community leaders to shore up their authority?  Why not ask the Muslims?  I'm sure they could tell you what they need or want.

I think your first answer was best - more money. Who doesn't want that? Has there ever been a problem we couldn't solve with handouts?[/quote]

Yes.  Many.   However money is often the oil which greases the wheels of society, FD.  Perhaps you should remember that when Government announces that it's funding some CWA initiative or community festival?   ::)

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 9:39pm:

Did they set up a southern european state in southern europe where they raped all the women who were the wrong type of wog? Because then you could draw a parallel with ISIS and Muslims, couldn't you? That would be convenient.

Fascinating. Its like all that ethnic cleansing/genocide/wholesale slaughter and destruction in the former Yugoslavia during the 90s just never happened.

... that is, to use FD's logic...

....of course on planet earth we're talking about immigrants to Australia, the vast majority of whom had nothing to do with such affairs - and in many cases were fleeing them.

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 9:59am:

This is a good point Gandalf. Just as born again Christians are more annoying, born again Muslims are more likely to blow up a bus. So all we have to do to stop buses blowing up is stop Islam spreading?

Its saying that established, mainstream islam is more likely to deter violence and extremism - not encourage it.

Figured that might be a bit too difficult for you.

True, but Iraq is hardly Yugoslavia. It’s a demokracy, remember? It’s on the road to becoming the next South Korea.

FD said.

Quote:

Suddenly it goes from all Muslims to "many Muslims".

 

When was it "all Muslims"?


Quote:

How many?  Do you have firm numbers?  Or are these like Adamant's statistics, something you're extracting from some orifice or other?

Like I keep telling you, the Pew survey is a good place to start.


Quote:

Yet, when I ask individuals and groups of Muslims I get very different results, FD.   I've served with, worked with, studied with and taught Muslims for over 30 years, and none have expressed the opinions you claim are commonplace amongst Muslims.

I've seen your efforts Brian. You pretty much beg them to lie to you or change the subject. They offer you a few meaningless platitudes, and suddenly the most backward Muslim is your best friend who you stand up for because he is just like you.

Every time you make this claim about a specific view, I ask you, did you ever actually ask them about it? Your response, silence. Just like Gandalf's efforts to divine the opinion of Malaysian Muslims on executing apostates and stoning adulterers to death, without inconvenient details like asking them what their opinion is.


Quote:

How the hell would you know what I've said or not said to the many Muslims I've known over the years?

I've seen how you work from the safety of an internet forum, and can only imagine it is even worse in person.


Quote:

Forgotten the Balkan Wars of the 1990s, FD?   Everything IS is doing or has done in Syria and Iraq, happened or worse, in Yugoslavia when that country broke up.  IS has yet to build concentration camps though, as far as I am aware, where they set out to starve "undesirable" people (primarily men and boys) to death.  Amazing how myopic your view of history is, isn't it, FD?

So how many Australian wogs felt it their religious duty to go over to join in the rape fest?


Quote:

No, FD, that is not what I just proposed and your deliberate misconstruing simply shows the depths of your hatred for everybody Muslim.   Try again and read it slowly this time with an open mind, OK?

Funnily enough, it still says the same stupid thing. Give Muslims money to stop them being terrorists. Like sit down money. We can call it no-blowing-up-bus money. Maybe they could use it to educate their children, to replace all the federal government funds siphoned off by the AFIC and various other highly respected Muslim community leaders.

We could call it jizya money. I jizya dis money soze ya leave ya machete at home.


Quote:

Yes.  Many.   However money is often the oil which greases the wheels of society, FD.  Perhaps you should remember that when Government announces that it's funding some CWA initiative or community festival?

Good point. The CWA never blows up buses. I think you're onto a winner here Brian.


Quote:

....of course on planet earth we're talking about immigrants to Australia, the vast majority of whom had nothing to do with such affairs - and in many cases were fleeing them.

Only what, 60 or so of them? That's reassuring isn't it Gandalf? The vast majority of Australian Muslims are not head hacking rapists ready to jump on the next plane plane to defend the new Caliphate, 7 year old son in tow. Move along people, nothing to see here.

Which Muslims have you sought opinions from, FD, and what questions did you ask?

I’m curious.

Karnal wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 11:02am:

Which Muslims have you sought opinions from, FD, and what questions did you ask? I’m curious.

FD's response... ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 8:30am:

Only what, 60 or so of them? That's reassuring isn't it Gandalf?

According to this site 15 went and fought for Croatia between 1991-95- 1 killed and 2 wounded:

http://www.croatia.org/crown/articles/9991/1/481-foreign-volunteers-from-35-countries-defended-Croatia-in-1991-1995.html

comparable proportion of Australia's Croat community perhaps?


freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 8:30am:

The vast majority of Australian Muslims are not head hacking rapists ready to jump on the next plane plane to defend the new Caliphate, 7 year old son in tow. Move along people, nothing to see here.

Indeed. Its difficult to believe you would say that as sarcasm. Especially from someone who once wisely said:


freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2007 at 5:56pm:

.What we need to do is stop alienating the entire muslim community and work with them towards the goals we have in common. The more we tar them all with the same brush, the more we push weaker individuals towards extremism.

FD, can you confirm that the above statement is nothing but the worst of spineless apologetics, and that the "correct" approach is instead to tar all muslims with the same brush, demonising them all as terrorists or terrorist lovers?

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 12:33pm:

Quote: This has resulted in higher than normal criminal rates amongst them.  We've managed to address (or largely ignore) that problem and it's righted itself.  Muslim youngsters seem to need more, not less help and accepting them and their culture may well help. What kind of help are you suggesting?

Perhaps what you suggested in 2007?

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2007 at 5:56pm:

.What we need to do is stop alienating the entire muslim community and work with them towards the goals we have in common. The more we tar them all with the same brush, the more we push weaker individuals towards extremism.

Interesting, isn't it how Brian is saying what you were saying in 2007 but you're now attacking him for saying it
now? 

Rarely have I seen a better example of hypocrisy!   :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

 

LOL FD will never live that down - and rightly so too.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 1:59pm:

LOL FD will never live that down - and rightly so too.

I thought he made a lot of sense. What happened to him?

It did make a lot of sense. But that was before FD 'talked to muslims and found out what islam was all about'.

Since then he wisely dismisses such apologetics with sensible rhetorical questions like:

"So we need to make more of an effort to appease terrorists in case they blow up busses and we only have ourselves to blame?"

Yes, that makes sense, G. Of course FD uncovered the truth with questions like that.

He must have unearthed a myriad of dastardly Muslim crimes, most of them unreported and unaccounted for. Terrorism, paedophilia, underage marriage, lying to FD when questioned.

I do hope this has been reported to the relevant authorities.

Quote:

Interesting, isn't it how Brian is s

aying what you were saying in 2007 but you're now attacking him for saying it now?

The difference seems pretty obvious to me. There are plenty of users still around who think the way I did in 2007, who are nothing at all like Brian.

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 8:30am:

Quote: Suddenly it goes from all Muslims to "many Muslims".   When was it "all Muslims"?

It was implied when you stated

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 12:33pm:

Quote: We've seen similar problems with other immigrant groups Which immigrant groups were ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

You suggested that the entire Muslim immigrant group was "ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy", FD.


Quote:

[quote]How many?  Do you have firm numbers?  Or are these like Adamant's statistics, something you're extracting from some orifice or other?

Like I keep telling you, the Pew survey is a good place to start.
[/quote]

So, you can't quote numbers, merely point to an entire survey?  A little better than Adamant but you do realise that Pew have taken many surveys and the statistics measured have fluctuated quite a bit?  Which survey in particular and which questions are you referring to, FD?


Quote:

[quote]Yet, when I ask individuals and groups of Muslims I get very different results, FD.   I've served with, worked with, studied with and taught Muslims for over 30 years, and none have expressed the opinions you claim are commonplace amongst Muslims.

I've seen your efforts Brian. You pretty much beg them to lie to you or change the subject. They offer you a few meaningless platitudes, and suddenly the most backward Muslim is your best friend who you stand up for because he is just like you.

Every time you make this claim about a specific view, I ask you, did you ever actually ask them about it? Your response, silence. Just like Gandalf's efforts to divine the opinion of Malaysian Muslims on executing apostates and stoning adulterers to death, without inconvenient details like asking them what their opinion is.
[/quote]

You have no idea what I say or ask, FD.  You are not present.  Therefore this is pure conjecture on your part.  Ever consider that just as I give you and your ilk a hard time, I may give them a hard time?   I can invariably argue both sides of most debates I become involved with.  Most good debaters can.


Quote:

[quote]How the hell would you know what I've said or not said to the many Muslims I've known over the years?

I've seen how you work from the safety of an internet forum, and can only imagine it is even worse in person.
[/quote]

Still pure conjecture, FD.   If you carry on the same way you do here, when you've been speaking to Muslims in real life, I'm not surprised that you get rebuffed.   ::)


Quote:

[quote]Forgotten the Balkan Wars of the 1990s, FD?   Everything IS is doing or has done in Syria and Iraq, happened or worse, in Yugoslavia when that country broke up.  IS has yet to build concentration camps though, as far as I am aware, where they set out to starve "undesirable" people (primarily men and boys) to death.  Amazing how myopic your view of history is, isn't it, FD?

So how many Australian wogs felt it their religious duty to go over to join in the rape fest?
[/quote]

Well, considering that the first Australians of Croatian descent went to Jugoslavia in the 1960s to take part in a rebellion against the Serbian authorities, I'd suspect quite a number.  That several fled back here and were found hiding out after being wanted for war crimes committed over there, the proportion should have been fairly high.  Perhaps higher than amongst Muslims.   However, I have no firm numbers.


Quote:

[quote]No, FD, that is not what I just proposed and your deliberate misconstruing simply shows the depths of your hatred for everybody Muslim.   Try again and read it slowly this time with an open mind, OK?

Funnily enough, it still says the same stupid thing. Give Muslims money to stop them being terrorists. Like sit down money. We can call it no-blowing-up-bus money. Maybe they could use it to educate their children, to replace all the federal government funds siphoned off by the AFIC and various other highly respected Muslim community leaders.
[/quote]

Yet, as we've seen, FD you were proposing exactly the same thing in 2007...   ::)


freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2007 at 5:56pm:

.What we need to do is stop alienating the entire muslim community and work with them towards the goals we have in common. The more we tar them all with the same brush, the more we push weaker individuals towards extremism.

Quote:

[quote]Yes.  Many.   However money is often the oil which greases the wheels of society, FD.  Perhaps you should remember that when Government announces that it's funding some CWA initiative or community festival?

Good point. The CWA never blows up buses. I think you're onto a winner here Brian.
[/quote]

::)

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 6:28pm:

Quote: Interesting, isn't it how Brian is s aying what you were saying in 2007 but you're now attacking him for saying it now? The difference seems pretty obvious to me. There are plenty of users still around who think the way I did in 2007, who are nothing at all like Brian.

True, FD. We’re all individuals.

But the 2007 FD does have a lot in common with Brian.

Do you think they played golf together?

Quote:

It was implied when you stated

How do you know I wasn't implying something else, eg many, some most, the vast majority, the black ones etc?


Quote:

You suggested that the entire Muslim immigrant group was "ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy", FD.

You can read an aweful lot into a question Brian. It did not suddenly go from all Muslims to some. It suddenly went from you being able to fill in the gaps with whatever you wanted to imagine to you not being able to do so. I can only imagine you are equally imaginative with obtaining the opinions of Muslims.


Quote:

So, you can't quote numbers, merely point to an entire survey?

The survey has the numbers Brian.


Quote:

You have no idea what I say or ask, FD.  You are not present.

I know what you say here. I know you have made this claim before, and have been totally unable to answer the question - did you actually ask these Muslims their opinion on whatever issue you insist you know what they think. Obtaining knowledge of others' opinions through osmosis was a recurring theme for you for a while.


Quote:

Ever consider that just as I give you and your ilk a hard time, I may give them a hard time?

;D


Quote:

I can invariably argue both sides of most debates I become involved with.  Most good debaters can.

Most normal people argue the side they agree with.

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 9:08pm:

Quote: It was implied when you stated How do you know I wasn't implying something else, eg many, some most, the vast majority, the black ones etc?

Because you did not qualify your statement, FD.   An unqualified statement implies the whole.   ::)


Quote:

[quote]You suggested that the entire Muslim immigrant group was "ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy", FD.

You can read an aweful lot into a question Brian. It did not suddenly go from all Muslims to some. It suddenly went from you being able to fill in the gaps with whatever you wanted to imagine to you not being able to do so. I can only imagine you are equally imaginative with obtaining the opinions of Muslims.
[/quote]

If you leave gaps in your statements, I am forced to fill them, FD.  You did not qualify your statement, therefore it must apply to the whole.  If I was to say, "Australians believe x, y or z," for example I imply all Australians believe x, y or z.  If OTOH, I state, "Most Australians believe..." then I am showing that I appreciate that not all Australians have this belief.   You invariably talk about "Muslims".  Not "Some Muslims," "a few Muslims," or "Muslims from Afghanistan [for example]..."   You speak as if Muslims are monolithic in their views.   ::)


Quote:

[quote]So, you can't quote numbers, merely point to an entire survey?

The survey has the numbers Brian.
[/quote]

Which survey?  As I've said, the Pew organisation conducts many surveys.  Lets be specific please, rather than using hand waving.  Provide a link to the survey you claim has "the numbers", FD.   ::)

That way we can check to make sure it actually "has the numbers."


Quote:

[quote]You have no idea what I say or ask, FD.  You are not present.

I know what you say here. I know you have made this claim before, and have been totally unable to answer the question - did you actually ask these Muslims their opinion on whatever issue you insist you know what they think. Obtaining knowledge of others' opinions through osmosis was a recurring theme for you for a while.
[/quote]

FD, I try and engage in a Socratic dialogue with my opponents.  I find out what they believe before I debate it.   That is why I ask questions.  Questions which point out their erroneous thinking.

Of course I ask people I'm discussing such matters with, questions.   ::)


Quote:

[quote]Ever consider that just as I give you and your ilk a hard time, I may give them a hard time?

;D


Quote:

I can invariably argue both sides of most debates I become involved with.  Most good debaters can.

Most normal people argue the side they agree with.[/quote]

Unless you fully understand the argument of the con side, you cannot really argue the pro, FD.    ::)

You've never done much formal debating, have you?

That’s right. You can read what you want into FD’s questions. FD’s just seeking the truth.

Life is a mystery, eh FD?

Karnal wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 9:33pm:

That’s right. You can read what you want into FD’s questions. FD’s just seeking the truth. Life is a mystery, eh FD?

It appears so, for him.   If that is what FD is seeking, he has a deuced odd way of finding it.   ::)

Quote:

If you leave gaps in your statements, I am forced to fill them, FD.

No you are not.


Quote:

You did not qualify your statement, therefore it must apply to the whole.

The only thing an unqualified use of the plural must necessarily imply is more than one.

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 9:47pm:

Quote: If you leave gaps in your statements, I am forced to fill them, FD. No you are not.

No, I am forced to fill them.  If you don't want me filling them, FD, then don't leave the gaps!


Quote:

[quote]You did not qualify your statement, therefore it must apply to the whole.

The only thing an unqualified use of the plural must necessarily imply is more than one.[/quote]

No, it implies the whole, FD.    ::)

So if I discover tomorrow morning that my front lawn is chewed down to grass level and declare "rabbits did this", I must necessarily mean every single rabbit in the world took a bite from my lawn overnight?

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 11:02pm:

So if I discover tomorrow morning that my front lawn is chewed down to grass level and declare "rabbits did this", I must necessarily mean every single rabbit in the world took a bite from my lawn overnight?

No but when you make a claim about "Muslims" you are implying that all Muslims are what you claim.

"Yet, when I ask individuals and groups of Muslims I get very different results, FD.   I've served with, worked with, studied with and taught Muslims for over 30 years, and none have expressed the opinions you claim are commonplace amongst Muslims".

In previous posts Brian you have stated that you are using your own name and proud of it.

Why is it that I can find NO link to your claim I have quoted?

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 11:33pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 15th, 2014 at 11:02pm: So if I discover tomorrow morning that my front lawn is chewed down to grass level and declare "rabbits did this", I must necessarily mean every single rabbit in the world took a bite from my lawn overnight? No but when you make a claim about "Muslims" you are implying that all Muslims are what you claim.

Why is it different Brian? If I found black flags on my lawn instead and proclaimed "Muslims did this", would I be mistakenly insisting that every Muslim in the world turned up my lawn overnight and left their jihad flag behind?

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 14^th, 2014 at 7:28pm:

No immigrant group is "ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy".  Individuals may be but the entire Muslim community?  What planet do you live on, FD, really?  'cause it sure isn't the Earth.  I've never met a Muslim opposed to "freedom and democracy" and I've met a fairly wide cross section.  You speak as if this is what the majority of Muslims believe.  ::)

Islam is ideologically opposed to freedom, democracy, equality, self-correction and all the rest of that makes the West.

Individuals who are born into Islam but who do not embrace it fully or at all (apostates) may not be against these things. But Islam is and its adhrents, by definition, are. Whether they are 'peaceful or not is a different issue. Most Germans in the Nazi era, Russians under Stalin, Chinese under Mao etc were not vicious murderers themselves even as millions were killed in these regimes. The West didn't say, "lets allow non-dicriminatory migration from these places because it is only the 'tiny minority' of Germans, Russian and Chinese are bad, those who distort the essentially peaceful ideas of National Socialism, Communism or Mao thought".

Only those who were demonstrably AGAINST these ideologies were given refuge. Not the ones who were too cowardly and opportunistic, despite their 'vast majority"  to confront the evils of the  "distorting tiny minority". The same should apply to Islam.

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 15^th, 2014 at 9:33pm:

Unless you fully understand the argument of the con side, you cannot really argue the pro, FD.    ::)

Brian you have confused yourself.  As much as you would like to imagine you do, you don't engage in Socratic discourse, your arguing both sides just means speaking out of both sides of your mouth and lying to win whatever side of the argument you find yourself on. 

Have you figured out if you are going to play at being an academic on the internets or not? 


Quote:

Brian Ross wrote:DL, I haven't claimed to be an academic. I've never been employed as one nor claimed to hold any academic standing. That is a product it appears of your febrile imagination. I'll leave you to keep up your strawmen arguments yourself.

     
           
From the nice person who hasn't even the brains to remember his previous announcements of being an academic.   
           

Quote:

Brian Ross wrote:I have been a published academic at several points in my life, Sappho. ?

     
           

Quote:

Brian Ross wrote:Actually, DL, I referred to several webpages before I typed that out, to make sure what I remembered from my academic days was correct.

Quote:

Brian Ross wrote:You must move in very different academic circles to myself

           

Quote:

Brian Ross wrote:Funny, is that why whenever I or anybody else bring up their academic qualifications or knowledge you attack them personally? ?

     

In short Brian, you are not Socratic, you are just a petty liar and bullshit artist who will say whatever it takes, truthful or not.

Absolutely no credibilty, you are an embarrassment to yourself.

Brian argues both sides without understanding either. I can't imagine the Muslims are overjoyed at the thought of having Brian stand up for them.

Soren wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 10:42am:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 14th, 2014 at 7:28pm: No immigrant group is "ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy".  Individuals may be but the entire Muslim community?  What planet do you live on, FD, really?  'cause it sure isn't the Earth.  I've never met a Muslim opposed to "freedom and democracy" and I've met a fairly wide cross section.  You speak as if this is what the majority of Muslims believe.  ::) Islam is ideologically opposed to freedom, democracy, equality, self-correction and all the rest of that makes the West. Individuals who are born into Islam but who do not embrace it fully or at all (apostates) may not be against these things. But Islam is and its adhrents, by definition, are. Whether they are 'peaceful or not is a different issue. Most Germans in the Nazi era, Russians under Stalin, Chinese under Mao etc were not vicious murderers themselves even as millions were killed in these regimes. The West didn't say, "lets allow non-dicriminatory migration from these places because it is only the 'tiny minority' of Germans, Russian and Chinese are bad, those who distort the essentially peaceful ideas of National Socialism, Communism or Mao thought". Only those who were demonstrably AGAINST these ideologies were given refuge. Not the ones who were too cowardly and opportunistic, despite their 'vast majority"  to confront the evils of the  "distorting tiny minority". The same should apply to Islam.

Sorry, old chap, I don’t quite follow. Are you saying Muslims are terrible, but Nazis and Communists are, on the whole, really nice people once you get to know them?

Please explain.

Karnal wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 12:37pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 16th, 2014 at 10:42am: Brian Ross wrote on Aug 14th, 2014 at 7:28pm: No immigrant group is "ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy".  Individuals may be but the entire Muslim community?  What planet do you live on, FD, really?  'cause it sure isn't the Earth.  I've never met a Muslim opposed to "freedom and democracy" and I've met a fairly wide cross section.  You speak as if this is what the majority of Muslims believe.  ::) Islam is ideologically opposed to freedom, democracy, equality, self-correction and all the rest of that makes the West. Individuals who are born into Islam but who do not embrace it fully or at all (apostates) may not be against these things. But Islam is and its adhrents, by definition, are. Whether they are 'peaceful or not is a different issue. Most Germans in the Nazi era, Russians under Stalin, Chinese under Mao etc were not vicious murderers themselves even as millions were killed in these regimes. The West didn't say, "lets allow non-dicriminatory migration from these places because it is only the 'tiny minority' of Germans, Russian and Chinese are bad, those who distort the essentially peaceful ideas of National Socialism, Communism or Mao thought". Only those who were demonstrably AGAINST these ideologies were given refuge. Not the ones who were too cowardly and opportunistic, despite their 'vast majority"  to confront the evils of the  "distorting tiny minority". The same should apply to Islam. Sorry, old chap, I don’t quite follow. Are you saying Muslims are terrible, but Nazis and Communists are, on the whole, really nice people once you get to know them? Please explain.

Islam, Nazism, Communism are terrible ideologies that have been inflicted upon the world with the assistance of some very polite people. People who walk their dog, say hello to their neighbour, eat corn flakes for breakfast, and, if given the chance, like to hack the head of anyone who says the wrong thing. Brian's best friends, in other words.

freediver wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 12:54pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 16th, 2014 at 12:37pm: Soren wrote on Aug 16th, 2014 at 10:42am: Brian Ross wrote on Aug 14th, 2014 at 7:28pm: No immigrant group is "ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy".  Individuals may be but the entire Muslim community?  What planet do you live on, FD, really?  'cause it sure isn't the Earth.  I've never met a Muslim opposed to "freedom and democracy" and I've met a fairly wide cross section.  You speak as if this is what the majority of Muslims believe.  ::) Islam is ideologically opposed to freedom, democracy, equality, self-correction and all the rest of that makes the West. Individuals who are born into Islam but who do not embrace it fully or at all (apostates) may not be against these things. But Islam is and its adhrents, by definition, are. Whether they are 'peaceful or not is a different issue. Most Germans in the Nazi era, Russians under Stalin, Chinese under Mao etc were not vicious murderers themselves even as millions were killed in these regimes. The West didn't say, "lets allow non-dicriminatory migration from these places because it is only the 'tiny minority' of Germans, Russian and Chinese are bad, those who distort the essentially peaceful ideas of National Socialism, Communism or Mao thought". Only those who were demonstrably AGAINST these ideologies were given refuge. Not the ones who were too cowardly and opportunistic, despite their 'vast majority"  to confront the evils of the  "distorting tiny minority". The same should apply to Islam. Sorry, old chap, I don’t quite follow. Are you saying Muslims are terrible, but Nazis and Communists are, on the whole, really nice people once you get to know them? Please explain. Islam, Nazism, Communism are terrible ideologies that have been inflicted upon the world with the assistance of some very polite people. People who walk their dog, say hello to their neighbour, eat corn flakes for breakfast, and, if given the chance, like to hack the head of anyone who says the wrong thing. Brian's best friends, in other words.

That’s quite a few ideologies, FD. Quite a few on this board are heavily influenced by at least one of them.

Do you think, perhaps, that you or I could be one of these head-hacking types? You know, one day we’re happily eating our corn flakes, and the next - we’re Brian’s best friend.

People like Y and the old boy, of course, would be excluded. We know theyve got the axe ready and waiting.They consider it a sin to have a clean axe - the more bone splinters, dried blood and hair, the better.

But ordinary people like myself and the 2007 FD - could we go from breakfast-eating dog-walkers to head-hacking mass murderers without any warning or sign?

What do you think it would take, FD?

It would take a threat to our freedom and democracy.

Adamant wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 1:52am:

"Yet, when I ask individuals and groups of Muslims I get very different results, FD.   I've served with, worked with, studied with and taught Muslims for over 30 years, and none have expressed the opinions you claim are commonplace amongst Muslims". In previous posts Brian you have stated that you are using your own name and proud of it. Why is it that I can find NO link to your claim I have quoted?

Perhaps you aren't looking hard enough or in the right places, Adamant?   ::)

Not everything is on the Internet or the web and I've never published anything about my personal experiences or interactions with Muslims., therefore there is nothing in the public domain.  When I publish my autobiography, you'll be able to read about it then.  Obviously, I hope you'll purchase a copy and not just welch off the public purse?   ;D

freediver wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 8:33am:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 15th, 2014 at 11:33pm: freediver wrote on Aug 15th, 2014 at 11:02pm: So if I discover tomorrow morning that my front lawn is chewed down to grass level and declare "rabbits did this", I must necessarily mean every single rabbit in the world took a bite from my lawn overnight? No but when you make a claim about "Muslims" you are implying that all Muslims are what you claim. Why is it different Brian? If I found black flags on my lawn instead and proclaimed "Muslims did this", would I be mistakenly insisting that every Muslim in the world turned up my lawn overnight and left their jihad flag behind?

When you state, "Muslims believe this," or "Muslims do that," you are speaking of the collective, plural, implying all Muslims believe or do something, FD.    When you state "Muslims have done this," you are describing the action of a group, not that all Muslims have done the thing you're claiming.  English appears to be a second language to you, FD or are you merely being deliberately obtuse and attempting to wriggle out (again)?   ::)

Soren wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 10:42am:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 14th, 2014 at 7:28pm: No immigrant group is "ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy".  Individuals may be but the entire Muslim community?  What planet do you live on, FD, really?  'cause it sure isn't the Earth.  I've never met a Muslim opposed to "freedom and democracy" and I've met a fairly wide cross section.  You speak as if this is what the majority of Muslims believe.  ::) Islam is ideologically opposed to freedom, democracy, equality, self-correction and all the rest of that makes the West.

According to whom, Soren?  What authority do you reference when making such a sweeping statement?   ::)

Why is the most populous Muslim nation a democracy?  Why are most Muslim nations democracies? 

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 3:11pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 16th, 2014 at 10:42am: Brian Ross wrote on Aug 14th, 2014 at 7:28pm: No immigrant group is "ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy".  Individuals may be but the entire Muslim community?  What planet do you live on, FD, really?  'cause it sure isn't the Earth.  I've never met a Muslim opposed to "freedom and democracy" and I've met a fairly wide cross section.  You speak as if this is what the majority of Muslims believe.  ::) Islam is ideologically opposed to freedom, democracy, equality, self-correction and all the rest of that makes the West. According to whom, Soren?  What authority do you reference when making such a sweeping statement?   ::)

Yadda. The old boy must have read one of his posts.

Keep it up, old chap. Y’s been waiting for someone to read his posts here for years.

freediver wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 1:51pm:

It would take a threat to our freedom and democracy.

Sounds like we’re safe then. There hasn’t been one of them since those Afghan camel drivers in WWI or WWII.

Unless you suspect one of us wanting to blow up a bus?

It’s not me, FD. I catch public transport all the time.

And I haven’t been on a camel since WWI.

Every Islamic doctrine and utterance is against freedom. The very word means submission.

And elections do not make a democracy. You need a degree if social solidarity and the rule of law - but these are missing from tribal, corrupt societies, which is what all Muslim countries are.

freediver wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 12:54pm:

Islam, Nazism, Communism are terrible ideologies that have been inflicted upon the world with the assistance of some very polite people. People who walk their dog, say hello to their neighbour, eat corn flakes for breakfast, and, if given the chance, like to hack the head of anyone who says the wrong thing. Brian's best friends, in other words.

Please provide evidence that my "best friends," like to, "hack the head of anyone who says the wrong thing," FD.   ::)

Oh, BTW, how are your mates in the EDL?

https://www.facebook.com/CW.Muslim.Defence.League/posts/513995098694155

http://www.halesowennews.co.uk/news/9309878.Mindless_EDL_thugs_storm_Muslim_exhibition_in_Cradley_Heath_market/?ref=twtrec

Soren wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 4:37pm:

Every Islamic doctrine and utterance is against freedom. The very word means submission.

So, you should have no problem then quoting this doctrine to us, chapter and verse, Soren?   ::)


Quote:

And elections do not make a democracy. You need a degree if social solidarity and the rule of law - but these are missing from tribal, corrupt societies, which is what all Muslim countries are.

So, Indonesia is a "tribal, corrupt society"?  Really?   ::)

Soren wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 4:37pm:

Every Islamic doctrine and utterance is against freedom. The very word means submission. And elections do not make a democracy. You need a degree if social solidarity and the rule of law - but these are missing from tribal, corrupt societies, which is what all Muslim countries are.

You’d better tell that to FD, old boy. He thinks Iraq and Afghanistan are the next South Korea.

Always absolutely never ever, eh?

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 4:50pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 16th, 2014 at 4:37pm: Every Islamic doctrine and utterance is against freedom. The very word means submission. So, you should have no problem then quoting this doctrine to us, chapter and verse, Soren?   ::) Quote: And elections do not make a democracy. You need a degree if social solidarity and the rule of law - but these are missing from tribal, corrupt societies, which is what all Muslim countries are. So, Indonesia is a "tribal, corrupt society"?  Really?   ::)

They’re hardly the pinnacle of Freeedom. The current president-elect was voted in on a platform to fight corruption.

More’s the pity, eh? The Australian government preferred to work with Suharto. Demokracy in South East Asia has never worked in our interests.

Alas, Australian history is illusive to the old boy. He prefers Medieval Studies.

Always, absolutely, never ever. Stilts.

Quote:

When you state, "Muslims believe this," or "Muslims do that," you are speaking of the collective, plural, implying all Muslims believe or do something, FD.

How do you know exactly what I mean Brian? Is this another demonstration of your amazing ability to know what people think without asking them?


Quote:

English appears to be a second language to you, FD or are you merely being deliberately obtuse and attempting to wriggle out (again)?

This is nothing to do with the meaning of English and everything to do with you imagining things I don't actually say. You even admitted you were "forced to fill in the gaps".


Quote:

Why is the most populous Muslim nation a democracy?

Gandalf was recently complaining about the 'evil west' interfering to make it that way. When the most populous Muslim nation is a democracy, that is Islam, but when they slaughter communists to get there, that is all our fault.

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 4:50pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 16th, 2014 at 4:37pm: Every Islamic doctrine and utterance is against freedom. The very word means submission. So, you should have no problem then quoting this doctrine to us, chapter and verse, Soren?   ::)

All of the Koran, all of the hadiths.

It is conceived entirely on  unfree premises - that is why it is called Submission. Islam is entirely premised on sumbmission to an absolutely unfathomable, unknowable God. All its texts and teachings follow from that.

freediver wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 6:03pm:

Quote: When you state, "Muslims believe this," or "Muslims do that," you are speaking of the collective, plural, implying all Muslims believe or do something, FD. How do you know exactly what I mean Brian?  Is this another demonstration of your amazing ability to know what people think without asking them?

There is this thing called language, FD.  It is how we convey ideas and concepts to one another.  I have assumed up until this point that we were conversing, electronically, through the written form of the language of Australian English.  It is how you tell me what you mean when we are debating a particular issue on this electronic bulletin board. It appears perhaps that I was mistaken.    ::)


Quote:

[quote]English appears to be a second language to you, FD or are you merely being deliberately obtuse and attempting to wriggle out (again)?

This is nothing to do with the meaning of English and everything to do with you imagining things I don't actually say. You even admitted you were "forced to fill in the gaps".
[/quote]

And you have had the opportunity to correct me, FD.  You have instead decided to focus not upon the issue under discussion and instead turn this into a general discussion about the usage of language.   Everything I have said is quite reasonable but you've decided that it would be useful to dispute every point in an effort to escape censure for your comments.   ::)


Quote:

[quote]Why is the most populous Muslim nation a democracy?

Gandalf was recently complaining about the 'evil west' interfering to make it that way. When the most populous Muslim nation is a democracy, that is Islam, but when they slaughter communists to get there, that is all our fault. [/quote]

I asked for a link to that comment.  You still haven't supplied it, FD so in the spirit of amicable conversation that you've decided no longer to take part in, I'll ask for it again.  Prove to me that was that Gandalf said or even implied, otherwise I'll assume you are lying.    ::)

BTW, the CIA admitted two decades ago that it was complicit in the slaughter of up to 2 million Indonesians who were linked to the PKI in the days of the coup and counter-coup that brought their protégé Sukarno to power, so if by "our" you mean "the west", I think if Gandalf did in fact actually claim that, he's close to being on the money, FD.

What I find interesting is how easily you keep being tripped up by even recent history, FD.   It keeps happening, time after time, over facts which are even easily checked.  It's as if you're not even really paying attention and are only going through the motions.   ::)

Soren wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 6:43pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 16th, 2014 at 4:50pm: Soren wrote on Aug 16th, 2014 at 4:37pm: Every Islamic doctrine and utterance is against freedom. The very word means submission. So, you should have no problem then quoting this doctrine to us, chapter and verse, Soren?   ::) All of the Koran, all of the hadiths. It is conceived entirely on  unfree premises - that is why it is called Submission. Islam is entirely premised on sumbmission to an absolutely unfathomable, unknowable God. All its texts and teachings follow from that.

All two hundred thousand of them. Who’s been a busy old boy ploughing through all them?

Always, absolutely - entirely.

If you ever need an imam, effendes, the old boy’s your man.

freediver wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 6:03pm:

Quote: When you state, "Muslims believe this," or "Muslims do that," you are speaking of the collective, plural, implying all Muslims believe or do something, FD. How do you know exactly what I mean Brian? Is this another demonstration of your amazing ability to know what people think without asking them? [quote]English appears to be a second language to you, FD or are you merely being deliberately obtuse and attempting to wriggle out (again)?

This is nothing to do with the meaning of English and everything to do with you imagining things I don't actually say. You even admitted you were "forced to fill in the gaps". [/quote]

Exactly. How dare they do this to you, FD.

Quote:

And you have had the opportunity to correct me, FD.

I tried that. It didn't work.


Quote:

I have assumed up until this point that we were conversing, electronically, through the written form of the language of Australian English.

You are wrong on the basic English as well Brian.


Quote:

You have instead decided to focus not upon the issue under discussion and instead turn this into a general discussion about the usage of language.

I was attempting to explain to you why you are wrong Brian. It is not my fault I had to take it all the way back to primary school. We can't exactly move on from this, because you carry on with the same stupid crap forever.


Quote:

Everything I have said is quite reasonable

Except where you insist you are forced to "fill in the gaps" using your own imagination, then reinvent the English language to justify yourself. Every discussion with you turns into you making the same idiotic claims. You do it to plenty of other people also. You end up having the same demented 'socratic' argument with everyone.

freediver wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 9:11pm:

Quote: And you have had the opportunity to correct me, FD. I tried that. It didn't work.

Because I pointed out your "correction" as dissembling, FD.   ::)


Quote:

[quote]I have assumed up until this point that we were conversing, electronically, through the written form of the language of Australian English.

You are wrong on the basic English as well Brian.
[/quote]

No, I have shown your understanding of basic English is wrong, FD.   ::)


Quote:

[quote]You have instead decided to focus not upon the issue under discussion and instead turn this into a general discussion about the usage of language.

I was attempting to explain to you why you are wrong Brian. It is not my fault I had to take it all the way back to primary school. We can't exactly move on from this, because you carry on with the same stupid crap forever.
[/quote]

Wow, you seem to be the one needs simple English explained to them, FD, not me.   ::)


Quote:

[quote]Everything I have said is quite reasonable

Except where you insist you are forced to "fill in the gaps" using your own imagination, then reinvent the English language to justify yourself.[/quote]

I have not reinvented anything.  Is your background non-English speaking?   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 9:22pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 16th, 2014 at 9:11pm: Quote: And you have had the opportunity to correct me, FD. I tried that. It didn't work. Because I pointed out your "correction" as dissembling, FD.   ::) [quote] [quote]I have assumed up until this point that we were conversing, electronically, through the written form of the language of Australian English.

You are wrong on the basic English as well Brian.
[/quote]

No, I have shown your understanding of basic English is wrong, FD.   ::)


Quote:

[quote]You have instead decided to focus not upon the issue under discussion and instead turn this into a general discussion about the usage of language.

I was attempting to explain to you why you are wrong Brian. It is not my fault I had to take it all the way back to primary school. We can't exactly move on from this, because you carry on with the same stupid crap forever.
[/quote]

Wow, you seem to be the one needs simple English explained to them, FD, not me.   ::)


Quote:

[quote]Everything I have said is quite reasonable

Except where you insist you are forced to "fill in the gaps" using your own imagination, then reinvent the English language to justify yourself.[/quote]

I have not reinvented anything.  Is your background non-English speaking?   ::)

[/quote]


The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Freedom and Islam are incompatible.  You cannot be a free Muslim.

You are either cheating on your Islam or you are cheating on your freedom.

Karnal wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 8:07pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 16th, 2014 at 6:43pm: Brian Ross wrote on Aug 16th, 2014 at 4:50pm: Soren wrote on Aug 16th, 2014 at 4:37pm: Every Islamic doctrine and utterance is against freedom. The very word means submission. So, you should have no problem then quoting this doctrine to us, chapter and verse, Soren?   ::) All of the Koran, all of the hadiths. It is conceived entirely on  unfree premises - that is why it is called Submission. Islam is entirely premised on sumbmission to an absolutely unfathomable, unknowable God. All its texts and teachings follow from that. All two hundred thousand of them. Who’s been a busy old boy ploughing through all them? Always, absolutely - entirely. If you ever need an imam, effendes, the old boy’s your man.

You mean 150-300 million of them? (15-30%)

Soren wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 9:50pm:

Freedom and Islam are incompatible.  You cannot be a free Muslim. You are either cheating on your Islam or you are cheating on your freedom.

Says a dirty old boy who stands against the freedom to do pretty much everything, with one exception.

Offending.

Allah uakbar, no?

Soren wrote on Aug 16^th, 2014 at 9:50pm:

Freedom and Islam are incompatible.  You cannot be a free Muslim. You are either cheating on your Islam or you are cheating on your freedom.

Yet we have millions of Muslims just to the north of our continent who'd disagree with you, Soren.   I'll take their word over yours any day.   ::)

In Indonesia, the majority of Muslims favour making Shariah the law of the land. Half go so far as to support stoning people to death as a punishment for adultery. If you go further north to Malaysia, the majority support both stoning for adultery and the death penalty for apostasy. When it comes to women's rights, a whopping 93% of south east asian Muslims believe a woman should obey her husband.

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 17^th, 2014 at 1:29am:

Yet we have millions of Muslims just to the north of our continent who'd disagree with you, Soren.   I'll take their word over yours any day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakar_Bashir

What a disgusting individual you are.

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2014 at 9:41am:

In Indonesia, the majority of Muslims favour making Shariah the law of the land. Half go so far as to support stoning people to death as a punishment for adultery. If you go further north to Malaysia, the majority support both stoning for adultery and the death penalty for apostasy. When it comes to women's rights, a whopping 93% of south east asian Muslims believe a woman should obey her husband.

True, FD. It’s the same statistics as Queensland. If you go further north, people are much nicer.

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 17^th, 2014 at 1:29am:

Soren wrote on Aug 16th, 2014 at 9:50pm: Freedom and Islam are incompatible.  You cannot be a free Muslim. You are either cheating on your Islam or you are cheating on your freedom. Yet we have millions of Muslims just to the north of our continent who'd disagree with you, Soren.   I'll take their word over yours any day.   ::)

Yeah, ask them:

However, the emergence of Indonesia’s democracy has been accompanied by an unintended phenomenon: the decline of religious freedom. The growing influence of militant Islamist groups has significantly contributed to this problem. They promote antipluralist ideologies and intolerant attitudes toward religious minorities like Ahmadis and Christians, threatening the future of democracy in the world’s largest Muslim country. In addition to inciting hatred and discrimination, they have mobilized mass support for communal violence. The evidence shows that these militant Islamists have attacked and even killed members of religious minorities over the last several years.  The Wahid Institute’s Report on Religious Freedom in Indonesia (2011) shows an 18 percent increase in religious intolerance in various provinces and cities compared with the previous year (2010).  Meanwhile, the Setara Institute for Democracy and Peace noted that there were 299 cases related to violence against religious freedom in 2011. The report also shows that West Java, East Java, and South Sulawesi provinces were ranked at the highest level of religious intolerance.

Not surprisingly, Indonesia has lost something of its former reputation and is increasingly seen as a home to “the angry Islam.” The government appears unable to control the militant Islamists, and religious freedom in the country is now at a crossroads.
http://www.freedomhouse.org/blog/paradox-indonesia%E2%80%99s-democracy-and-religious-freedom#.U_Bwq_mSwUg

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2014 at 9:41am:

In Indonesia, the majority of Muslims favour making Shariah the law of the land. Half go so far as to support stoning people to death as a punishment for adultery. If you go further north to Malaysia, the majority support both stoning for adultery and the death penalty for apostasy. When it comes to women's rights, a whopping 93% of south east asian Muslims believe a woman should obey her husband.

Feminism is rebellion against God's AUTHORITY!

A Christian Wife is to Obey Her Husband in EVERY THING!


Quote:

Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

[Eph.5:22]


Quote:

Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

[Col.3:18]


Quote:

Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives,

[I Peter 3:1]

Mmm, appears Christianity and Christians agree with Muslims on the matter of obedience to husbands, FD.   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 18^th, 2014 at 1:32am:

freediver wrote on Aug 17th, 2014 at 9:41am: In Indonesia, the majority of Muslims favour making Shariah the law of the land. Half go so far as to support stoning people to death as a punishment for adultery. If you go further north to Malaysia, the majority support both stoning for adultery and the death penalty for apostasy. When it comes to women's rights, a whopping 93% of south east asian Muslims believe a woman should obey her husband. Feminism is rebellion against God's AUTHORITY! A Christian Wife is to Obey Her Husband in EVERY THING! Quote: Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. [Eph.5:22] [quote]Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

[Col.3:18]


Quote:

Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives,

[I Peter 3:1]

Mmm, appears Christianity and Christians agree with Muslims on the matter of obedience to husbands, FD.   ::)

[/quote]





Dictionary;
disingenuous = = not candid or sincere, especially in pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.

Disingenuous.

Sorta sounds a lot like a definition of your-self, doesn't it brian ?





Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
19  Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.



Ephesians 5:22
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23  For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24  Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27  That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28  So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 18^th, 2014 at 1:32am:

freediver wrote on Aug 17th, 2014 at 9:41am: In Indonesia, the majority of Muslims favour making Shariah the law of the land. Half go so far as to support stoning people to death as a punishment for adultery. If you go further north to Malaysia, the majority support both stoning for adultery and the death penalty for apostasy. When it comes to women's rights, a whopping 93% of south east asian Muslims believe a woman should obey her husband. Feminism is rebellion against God's AUTHORITY! A Christian Wife is to Obey Her Husband in EVERY THING! Quote: Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. [Eph.5:22] [quote]Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

[Col.3:18]


Quote:

Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives,

[I Peter 3:1]

Mmm, appears Christianity and Christians agree with Muslims on the matter of obedience to husbands, FD.   ::)[/quote]

Not excusing or changing the subject, just drawing parallels eh Brian?

freediver wrote on Aug 18^th, 2014 at 12:51pm:

Not excusing or changing the subject, just drawing parallels eh Brian?

Well, I can't answer for Brian but it sure looks that way, FD.  So, when are you going to start attacking those Christians for believing similar things to them Muslims?   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

|dev|null wrote on Aug 18^th, 2014 at 1:34pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 18th, 2014 at 12:51pm: Not excusing or changing the subject, just drawing parallels eh Brian? Well, I can't answer for Brian but it sure looks that way, FD.  So, when are you going to start attacking those Christians for believing similar things to them Muslims?   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

As soon as I can find one.

freediver wrote on Aug 18^th, 2014 at 12:51pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 18th, 2014 at 1:32am: freediver wrote on Aug 17th, 2014 at 9:41am: In Indonesia, the majority of Muslims favour making Shariah the law of the land. Half go so far as to support stoning people to death as a punishment for adultery. If you go further north to Malaysia, the majority support both stoning for adultery and the death penalty for apostasy. When it comes to women's rights, a whopping 93% of south east asian Muslims believe a woman should obey her husband. Feminism is rebellion against God's AUTHORITY! A Christian Wife is to Obey Her Husband in EVERY THING! Quote: Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. [Eph.5:22] [quote]Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. [Col.3:18] [quote]Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives,

[I Peter 3:1]

Mmm, appears Christianity and Christians agree with Muslims on the matter of obedience to husbands, FD.   ::)[/quote]

Not excusing or changing the subject, just drawing parallels eh Brian?[/quote]

Yes.  Appears you're suffering from that myopia again, FD.  I'd recommend getting your eyes looked at.   ::)

freediver wrote on Aug 18^th, 2014 at 6:39pm:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 18th, 2014 at 1:34pm: freediver wrote on Aug 18th, 2014 at 12:51pm: Not excusing or changing the subject, just drawing parallels eh Brian? Well, I can't answer for Brian but it sure looks that way, FD.  So, when are you going to start attacking those Christians for believing similar things to them Muslims?   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D As soon as I can find one.

Selective blindness as well, FD?   ::)

freediver wrote on Aug 18^th, 2014 at 6:39pm:

|dev|null wrote on Aug 18th, 2014 at 1:34pm: freediver wrote on Aug 18th, 2014 at 12:51pm: Not excusing or changing the subject, just drawing parallels eh Brian? Well, I can't answer for Brian but it sure looks that way, FD.  So, when are you going to start attacking those Christians for believing similar things to them Muslims?   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D As soon as I can find one.

Brian seemed to have no probs finding 'em.  Perhaps you should go alone to the World Congress of Families conference in Melbourne.  I'm sure you could plenty of loony Christians there!  They might even pray over your dead sense of decency and fair play and raise it from the dead!  ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

Brian only has to read someone criticising Islam to "find" them. Thanks for the invitation, but I am shampooing my hair that day.

freediver wrote on Aug 19^th, 2014 at 12:43pm:

Brian only has to read someone criticising Islam to "find" them. Thanks for the invitation, but I am shampooing my hair that day.

Don't worry, I'm sure they'll still pray for you in absentia!

At least he doesn't ignore "them" FD like you do because you prefer to persecute the other "them"!   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

You really do seem to dislike Brian pointing out the contradictions in your inquisition!   ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D :D :D

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 13^th, 2014 at 8:04pm:

You provide the answer to your own question, FD.  What we need to stop is the spread of radical "born again" Islam, not the old style, conservative, Islam.   ::)

What do you like about "the old style, conservative, Islam"?