In a recent discussion on suicide bombing, an article was presented by a Muslim academic, which had been republished by the red cross. The article claimed that suicide bombing violated many Islamic laws, including a prohibition on mutilating bodies. As you would expect, the only rational way to interpret the ban on mutilating "bodies" is as a ban on mutilating corpses. Muhammed himself was fond or dismembering people in the process of killing or punishing them.

Interestingly, the author went to significant effort to build this argument, but in the end disowned it by claiming merely that it "may" be the case. This is not an uncommon method used by Muslims to mislead non-Muslims into accepting a more progressive version of Islam.

Gandalf responded to the discussion about the veracity of this "mutilating bodies" argument by pretending to be confident that it is legitimate, while not actually directly supporting it. The familiar Muslim tapdancing ensued, until he too conceded that it may or may not be true.

This lead me to consider another recent claim that Gandalf made about Islam - that Muhammed's direct order to kill gay people can be reinterpreted into something entirely different. Gandalf initially disowned this argument also, but later put his name to it. He was, however, extremely reluctant to discuss it in the first place. The revelation was preceded by many pages over several threads of the all-too-familiar Muslim tapdancing - this time concerning Gandalf's method of interpreting, or reinterpreting Islam and Muhammed's example. Gandalf refuses to nominate a school of thought he belongs to, or to give any broad overview or methodology. At best, he just comes up with conveniently progressive interpretations of Islam as is necessary, though usually he merely insists that critics of Islam are wrong and leaves it at that. The reinterpretation of Muhamed's order to kill gay people is most likely merely the tip of the iceberg of a very strange school of Islamic thought, one that Gandalf likes to play very close to his chest under most circumstances.

When he does explain what he thinks, it is usually in the context of an argument that Muslims are just like everyone else. To make this argument, Gandalf must present himself as a normal, average Muslim, and lead his readers to believe that his views are typical or representative of the broader Muslim community. The reinterpretation of Muhammed's order to kill gay people is one of many small lies that Gandalf tries to avoid, so that he can get away with the much bigger lie about Muslims being normal people who eat corn flakes for breakfast and do not represent a threat to freedom and democracy. Gandalf has made this argument directly. He has also made the argument in trying to re-interpret the results of a Pew survey showing some very disturbing views held by the majority of Muslims in some of the largest Muslim countries. Revealing his unusual take on Muhammed's order to kill gay people undermines this bigger lie, because it destroys his legitimacy as a representative of Islam or the broader Muslim community, and his ability to honestly speak on their behalf. Presumably, revealing what school of thought he belongs to (or his broader method of reinterpretation if his views are indeed unique to himself) would further destroy the credibility of his arguments about the 'average' Muslim. So far, reinterpreting Muhamed's direct order to kill gay people is the closest we have come to an insight into this, despite Gandalf discussing Islam endlessly, and the many threads trying to elicit an honest response from him.

Gandalf has also often argued that he opposes the traditional interpretations of Islam and is promoting his views within the Muslim community. I have seen no evidence of this. All I have seen for myself is Gandalf going to elaborate lengths to justify his refusal to discuss Islam with other Muslims on this board, and to blame anything but Islam (usually he blames America) whenever Muslims do nasty things in its name.

The mutilating bodies argument, the order to kill gays, and many of the other arguments concerning Islam and the views of the Muslim community end up serving the same purpose. They all serve to misrepresent Islam and to understate the threat it poses to freedom and democracy. This threat is currently being writ large by ISIS. Gandalf's contribution to the debate on ISIS is to blame it all on western interference and pretend it is nothing to do with Islam.

Similarly in Palestine, Gandalf attempts to twist reality so that the Palestinians of Gaza are not even responsible for their own actions, be it Hamas' charter to destroy Israel, the election of Hamas to power, or the launching of rockets from within Palestinian neighbourhoods (apparently this is acceptable because it would not make any difference to how Israel responds anyway). The year on year rocket launching etc is apparently endorsed or permitted by the evil Jews next door so that they can use the Palestinians for target practice and blockade the Gaza strip. Gandalf ignores the fact that Israel is a modern, first world democracy with roughly 25% Arab Muslim population, where the Arabs themselves enjoy more freedoms than they do in other middle eastern countries, instead painting a picture of ethnic cleansing and Jews that do not hold back military fire regardless of how many civilians were in the way. Any attempt to point out the obvious - that Israel responds with far less force than it is capable of when rockets are launched from urban areas - is simply explained away as the Jews using the most force they care to use at the time. At one time Gandalf likened Hamas to a hollywood-inspired unstoppable alien force that grows stronger the more nuclear bombs are thrown at it.

The "muslims are just like everyone else" argument rests on an assumption made by most westerners that Islam is just like every other religion. In reality, it is a politically movement, as much as a religion, with much in common with Nazism. There were no doubt plenty of nice or normal Nazi party members in Germany, but that is hardly relevant in discussing the threat posed by Nazism, just as it is irrelevant to the threat posed by Islam to modern democracy and freedom.

We take the separation of church and state for granted, but under Islam the two are inseparable. We also tend to assume that religious people are keen to reveal all aspects of their religion. The most conservative Christians for example are more than happy to let everyone know that "God hates fags". We assume that religious people want to spread their version of the ultimate truth. This is not true of Islam. Islam has traditionally spread by the sword. The Islamic state comes first, then Shariah law, then the gradual imposition of Islam from above. Muslims still hold to this tradition. Just as there are plenty of Muslims around the world who want a return to a traditional head hacking Islamic state in the middle east, there are also plenty who take the traditional approach of spreading Islam by whatever means are available, and letting people find out afterwards what the reality is like. Whether the person spreading the misinformation is an ignorant dupe or someone deliberately spreading lies is irrelevant to the outcome, in this case trying to neuter criticism of Islam by any means possible while other Muslims spread it by whatever means are available (including slaughtering innocent people).

Thus, when Muslim community leaders issue press releases intended for non-Muslim audiences trying to distance Islam from the latest atrocity (but often subtly disowning the argument, for example by referencing Australian law rather than Islam as the basis for their criticism), then it is only reasonable to ask what they are doing to actually stamp out support for these atrocities within their local Muslim community, and further afield. When Muslims insist that they are just like everyone else and want the same things, this should be treated the same way as a politician insisting he and his party represent your views and want the same thing as you do for the country.

The mutilating bodies thread:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1407127340

Gandalf's reinterpretation of Muhammad's order to execute gays, and one of the many threads trying to get Gandalf to reveal the most basics aspects of his views on Islam:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1402193325/83#83

An earlier discussion about Malaysia, where the majority of Muslims support stoning people to death for adultery and executing apostates. Even here Gandalf attempted to make the "Muslims are just like everyone else" argument:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Faith_Ratchet#Malaysia

Gandalf's attempt to deny Hamas's role in drawing Israeli military fire into Palestinian suburbs:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1406388140

Ethnic cleansing in Israel:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1407046293

Even ISIS is America's fault:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1407469438/7#7

Read it, have you? Jolly good.

Wow. I literally don't know where to begin.

I guess I should be flattered that FD considers me worthy of such an effort. I mean FD must have been working on this all day - at least.

You two are sick in the head feckers that's for sure.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 11:32pm:

Wow. I literally don't know where to begin. I guess I should be flattered that FD considers me worthy of such an effort.

Or really creeped out.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 11:32pm:

Wow. I literally don't know where to begin.

You can begin by explaining how you had the hyde to disagree with FD in all those threads, Moslem.

Apologize to FD now.

LifeOrDeath wrote on Aug 12^th, 2014 at 1:58am:

You two are sick in the head feckers that's for sure.

Matty?

Is this another personal attack threads?   You know, the ones Brian is always attracting?   Sure looks like it.  You should be flattered Gandalf that they go after you personally like this!   FD really likes you!!!! ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D

Well if anyone can actually be arsed plowing through FD's rather excruciating exegesis of my life at ozpolitic, then maybe they will have the patience to actually go through the arguments of mine that he referenced and see how full of crap FD is being.

eg:


Quote:

Even ISIS is America's fault: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1407469438/7#7

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 12^th, 2014 at 11:36am:

Well if anyone can actually be arsed plowing through FD's rather excruciating exegesis of my life at ozpolitic, then maybe they will have the patience to actually go through the arguments of mine that he referenced and see how full of crap FD is being. eg: Quote: Even ISIS is America's fault: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1407469438/7#7

Now now, don't you start. As a Muselman, your support of ISIS is absolute - your prophet demands it. Of course you would try to cast the blame elsewhere. This is what the Muselman does.

You might not have said this in so many words, but we know exactly what you mean.

Indeed - both my support for ISIS and my spineless attempts to cast blame elsewhere is demanded by my prophet.... along with pretty much every other negative attribute you can make up about me.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 12^th, 2014 at 12:05pm:

Indeed - both my support for ISIS and my spineless attempts to cast blame elsewhere is demanded by my prophet.... along with pretty much every other negative attribute you can make up about me.

Exactly. You also disagree with FD's meticulous analysis on Hamas' mother's skirts.

I think you owe FD an apology, G.

Its true - guilty as charged: I demand evidence for baseless claims, rather than defer to "the bleeding obvious" and "common sense" - as freeedom lovers like FD do.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 12^th, 2014 at 2:45pm:

Its true - guilty as charged: I demand evidence for baseless claims, rather than defer to "the bleeding obvious" and "common sense" - as freeedom lovers like FD do.

Yes, G, but I think FD is cranky that you don't blame Islam like everyone else:


Quote:

All I have seen for myself is Gandalf going to elaborate lengths to justify his refusal to discuss Islam with other Muslims on this board, and to blame anything but Islam.

If you could blame Islam - even just a little bit - I think you'll be okay.

Quote:

discuss Islam with other Muslims on this board

err - other muslims on this board??

Wow - maybe I should read FD's rant - could be entertaining.

Just out of interest - does anyone know of any other muslims "on this board"?

I don't - during my time here there was Abu for a few weeks. Apart from that there were a couple I suspected of being muslim - True Colors and some silly troll who used a monkey-Abbott as his avatar - forget his name. In any case, I discussed islam with all of them - including criticising them for their views.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 12^th, 2014 at 4:29pm:

Quote: discuss Islam with other Muslims on this board err - other muslims on this board?? Wow - maybe I should read FD's rant - could be entertaining. Just out of interest - does anyone know of any other muslims "on this board"? I don't - during my time here there was Abu for a few weeks. Apart from that there were a couple I suspected of being muslim - True Colors and some silly troll who used a monkey-Abbott as his avatar - forget his name. In any case, I discussed islam with all of them - including criticising them for their views.

Yes, but you were just doing that for show. It's all part of that Taqiyya you people practice as ordered by your sinister prophet. 

Come on, G, you can't fool us. You even tried posting that article which, as FD pointed out, is a complete fake. FD didn't even have to read it to know what you're up to here.

I mean, really - sitting around writing "scholarly" articles to try to trick whitey. Who are you people trying to fool? FD knows what you're up to. Your entire presence here - your whole agenda - is an elaborate ruse. Tell us the truth, Moslem - you're not really G at all, are you?

You're Abu practicing Taqiyya.

lol all that and more.

In fact I'm actually you K, and adamant, and of course all of mattwisk's incarnations as well. And then I created Brian Ross - just to sow discord between the infidels. And its working - Brian has taken the heat off me, so I can carry on with my taqiyya unnoticed.

But alas, FD won't be fooled. He foils me every time with Abu's non-existent posts and his freeedom to "just ask questions". I mean this is the guy who can pick out muslim "blatant lies" even when these same muslims "draw some kind of line between deception and outright lying". You see, muslims draw the line at "outright lying", and instead go for "blatant lies" - whod've thought? Only FD could have snuffed that one out.

You’re Brian too? Good heavens, the lengths you people will go to to trick us.

It makes perfect sense, of course - all that spineless apologism about not having the right to criticize the tinted races. I should have known. You people will stop at nothing. You despise Freeedom.

And just to think: you would have gotten away with it if it wasn’t for FD.

Thanks, FD, you’ve done it again. Another case solved.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 11^th, 2014 at 11:32pm:

Wow. I literally don't know where to begin. I guess I should be flattered that FD considers me worthy of such an effort. I mean FD must have been working on this all day - at least.

Someone just sent me this.  I feel it rather describes your position well, Gandalf.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t1.0-9/10593084_10204692857744652_8366576792693417359_n.jpg

Keep up the good work!  ;)

ps. I am Gandalf and Karnal and Hot Breath and Adamant and Moses and Soren and Yadda and Baronvert and Shakey and...and...and...   8-)

That applies equally to you Brian.   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D