Quote:

EARLIER this year, as Islamic State militants swarmed across northern Syria, a farming family got a knock on the door that would strip them of their livelihoods. The militants, who introduced themselves as Islamic State members, said they were administering the town and had a list of how many hectares of land and other assets the family owned, says one family member. They also said they had a list of the town’s Christian families and the tribute they had to pay to be able to continue living there.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/terrorists-reap-the-profit/story-e6frg6z6-1227040553342#

that ones straight out of the book

Islamic...what?

I refuse to pay money to Rupert, post the text please.  ::)

Ah the pretend islamic apologist Brian Breath with his trusty sock.

One day you should actually google what you are talking about at least. Then you wouldn't look like such a fool every time you post.

Quote:

............“Then the mourners began to protest, demanding that the IS leave the town of Ashara,” Furati told AFP via the internet. The Observatory said that, on Friday, the IS publicly executed and crucified a young man identified as Ali Khalaf, accusing him of “heresy and apostasy.” “Though he had nothing to do with yesterday’s protests, they executed him publicly in Ashara in order to terrorise people into not taking any kind of action against the IS,” Abdel Rahman said...........

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/world/islamic-state-fighters-execute-crucify-syrian-youth-after-locals-demand-the-terrorists-leave-ashara/story-fnihsmjt-1227049696344

This is islam

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 6^th, 2014 at 6:08pm:

Quote: ............“Then the mourners began to protest, demanding that the IS leave the town of Ashara,” Furati told AFP via the internet. The Observatory said that, on Friday, the IS publicly executed and crucified a young man identified as Ali Khalaf, accusing him of “heresy and apostasy.” “Though he had nothing to do with yesterday’s protests, they executed him publicly in Ashara in order to terrorise people into not taking any kind of action against the IS,” Abdel Rahman said........... http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/world/islamic-state-fighters-execute-crucify-syrian-youth-after-locals-demand-the-terrorists-leave-ashara/story-fnihsmjt-1227049696344 This is islam

Is it?  Yet the international investigation team raised and funded by the UK government have stated that most IS members "know little about Islam", Sprint.   Many are hick yokels who are part of criminal gangs apparently, who have risen through the ranks because of their ruthlessness, not their religious knowledge.  IS itself has devolved authority to local commanders and there is little real central direction, despite their propaganda to the contrary.

Islamic State - must mean that is an.... er.... ISLAMIC State, no?
Why else would they call it ISLAMIC?

In your deluded world even ISLAMIC has nuffin' to do wiv.... er..... Islam.

Please explain, Brain.

Soren wrote on Sep 6^th, 2014 at 11:07pm:

Islamic State - must mean that is an.... er.... ISLAMIC State, no? Why else would they call it ISLAMIC? In your deluded world even ISLAMIC has nuffin' to do wiv.... er..... Islam. Please explain, Brain.

They may call it what they want.  Do you often fail to look beyond mere labels and see the lack of substance behind them, Soren?   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 6^th, 2014 at 11:16pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 6th, 2014 at 11:07pm: Islamic State - must mean that is an.... er.... ISLAMIC State, no? Why else would they call it ISLAMIC? In your deluded world even ISLAMIC has nuffin' to do wiv.... er..... Islam. Please explain, Brain. They may call it what they want.  Do you often fail to look beyond mere labels and see the lack of substance behind them, Soren?   ::)

So it's a joke name, like Sue Ridge?

And of course it's only Muslims we shouldn't take at their words coz they of all people know not what they are saying, you patrinisindg, squishy apologist.

Soren wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:18am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 6th, 2014 at 11:16pm: Soren wrote on Sep 6th, 2014 at 11:07pm: Islamic State - must mean that is an.... er.... ISLAMIC State, no? Why else would they call it ISLAMIC? In your deluded world even ISLAMIC has nuffin' to do wiv.... er..... Islam. Please explain, Brain. They may call it what they want.  Do you often fail to look beyond mere labels and see the lack of substance behind them, Soren?   ::) So it's a joke name, like Sue Ridge? And of course it's only Muslims we shouldn't take at their words coz they of all people know not what they are saying, you patrinisindg, squishy apologist.

I don't take the word of most people who claim they're Christians, Soren.  You're a good example of a label with no substance in that regard.   ;D

Never claimed.end to be a christian, hot breath.


But why would you not believe Muslims who claim to be Muslims and are quoting the Koran and act entirely in accordance with historical Islamic precedence of killing the unbelievers? There is nothing unprecedented in what the IS guys are doing. They know it, all other Muslims know it. Even you know it, no matter how much you'd pretend otherwise.
Your soft bigotry of disbelieving them because you do not like what they say and do is pathetic, spineless, squishy and completely fake.

That’s right, old boy, you claimed you were.a Lutheran.

You worship a sausage-eating prophet with a wig like a pageboy.

Good show.

Soren wrote on Sep 6^th, 2014 at 11:07pm:

Islamic State - must mean that is an.... er.... ISLAMIC State, no?

Well, only technically speaking. They’re very selective about who they let in. They’re also quite choosy about which Muslims they leave with heads attached.

The Khmer Rouge were technically communists, but I can’t imagine Marx and Engels leaving Kampuchea with their heads intact.

By the way, dear boy, aren’t Lutherans technically Christians?

I’m.curious.

Karnal wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 2:16am:

That’s right, old boy, you claimed you were.a Lutheran.

Did I? Really?
I don't think so.

Karnal wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 2:28am:

Soren wrote on Sep 6th, 2014 at 11:07pm: Islamic State - must mean that is an.... er.... ISLAMIC State, no? Well, only technically speaking. They’re very selective about who they let in. They’re also quite choosy about which Muslims they leave with heads attached. The Khmer Rouge were technically communists, but I can’t imagine Marx and Engels leaving Kampuchea with their heads intact. By the way, dear boy, aren’t Lutherans technically Christians? I’m.curious.

If only those who act like Mohammed and his merry men are true Muslims, then IS qualifies with flying colours.
Everything they do in the name of Islam is fully supported by the koran. The caliph a has a PhD in Islamic studies.

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 6^th, 2014 at 6:28pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 6th, 2014 at 6:08pm: Quote: ............“Then the mourners began to protest, demanding that the IS leave the town of Ashara,” Furati told AFP via the internet. The Observatory said that, on Friday, the IS publicly executed and crucified a young man identified as Ali Khalaf, accusing him of “heresy and apostasy.” “Though he had nothing to do with yesterday’s protests, they executed him publicly in Ashara in order to terrorise people into not taking any kind of action against the IS,” Abdel Rahman said........... http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/world/islamic-state-fighters-execute-crucify-syrian-youth-after-locals-demand-the-terrorists-leave-ashara/story-fnihsmjt-1227049696344 This is islam Is it?  Yet the international investigation team raised and funded by the UK government have stated that most IS members "know little about Islam", Sprint.   Many are hick yokels who are part of criminal gangs apparently, who have risen through the ranks because of their ruthlessness, not their religious knowledge.  IS itself has devolved authority to local commanders and there is little real central direction, despite their propaganda to the contrary.

Do you have to understand how a jumbo jet works to believe it will get you to your destination?

Did the investigation find that they were all Muslims and all fighting in the name of Islam?

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 6^th, 2014 at 11:16pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 6th, 2014 at 11:07pm: Islamic State - must mean that is an.... er.... ISLAMIC State, no? Why else would they call it ISLAMIC? In your deluded world even ISLAMIC has nuffin' to do wiv.... er..... Islam. Please explain, Brain. They may call it what they want.  Do you often fail to look beyond mere labels and see the lack of substance behind them, Soren?   ::)

So you are inferring isis are falsely using islam as a front for their action ?

Soren wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:50am:

Never claimed.end to be a christian, hot breath. But why would you not believe Muslims who claim to be Muslims and are quoting the Koran and act entirely in accordance with historical Islamic precedence of killing the unbelievers? There is nothing unprecedented in what the IS guys are doing. They know it, all other Muslims know it. Even you know it, no matter how much you'd pretend otherwise. Your soft bigotry of disbelieving them because you do not like what they say and do is pathetic, spineless, squishy and completely fake.

bump

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 10:43am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 6th, 2014 at 11:16pm: Soren wrote on Sep 6th, 2014 at 11:07pm: Islamic State - must mean that is an.... er.... ISLAMIC State, no? Why else would they call it ISLAMIC? In your deluded world even ISLAMIC has nuffin' to do wiv.... er..... Islam. Please explain, Brain. They may call it what they want.  Do you often fail to look beyond mere labels and see the lack of substance behind them, Soren?   ::) So you are inferring isis are falsely using islam as a front for their action ?

Not me.  The International Investigations Group.  I am merely reporting their comments as a comparison to yours which attribute everything to Islam.   Personally, I'm undecided.   I suspect those at the top of IS are motived by their interpretation of Islam while those much further down are motived by their ruthless drive to gain power.   What I do know is that IS is considered extreme, even by those who previously have been considered by most commentators as "extreme".  Therefore, your attempt to portray their views as being mainsteam are obviously wildly mistaken, Sprint.  ::)

Soren wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:50am:

Never claimed.end to be a christian, hot breath.

Sorry, are you addressing my question, Soren?   ::)


Quote:

But why would you not believe Muslims who claim to be Muslims and are quoting the Koran and act entirely in accordance with historical Islamic precedence of killing the unbelievers? There is nothing unprecedented in what the IS guys are doing. They know it, all other Muslims know it. Even you know it, no matter how much you'd pretend otherwise. Your soft bigotry of disbelieving them because you do not like what they say and do is pathetic, spineless, squishy and completely fake.

What you believe and what the rest of the world knows are often at wild variance with one another, Soren.

We have seen that you take the most extreme and fundamentalist interpretation you can, time after time, despite it being explained to you that Islam has changed since the 7th century.   This is why I suspect you are secretly a graduate from the most extreme and fundamentalist Madrassah possible.    ::)

freediver wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 8:26am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 6th, 2014 at 6:28pm: Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 6th, 2014 at 6:08pm: Quote: ............“Then the mourners began to protest, demanding that the IS leave the town of Ashara,” Furati told AFP via the internet. The Observatory said that, on Friday, the IS publicly executed and crucified a young man identified as Ali Khalaf, accusing him of “heresy and apostasy.” “Though he had nothing to do with yesterday’s protests, they executed him publicly in Ashara in order to terrorise people into not taking any kind of action against the IS,” Abdel Rahman said........... http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/world/islamic-state-fighters-execute-crucify-syrian-youth-after-locals-demand-the-terrorists-leave-ashara/story-fnihsmjt-1227049696344 This is islam Is it?  Yet the international investigation team raised and funded by the UK government have stated that most IS members "know little about Islam", Sprint.   Many are hick yokels who are part of criminal gangs apparently, who have risen through the ranks because of their ruthlessness, not their religious knowledge.  IS itself has devolved authority to local commanders and there is little real central direction, despite their propaganda to the contrary. Do you have to understand how a jumbo jet works to believe it will get you to your destination?

Ah, so your Jumbo Jet sails across the oceans does it?   ::)


Quote:

Did the investigation find that they were all Muslims and all fighting in the name of Islam?

Using that line of argument, FD means that Joseph Kony and Fred Phelps are the most devout Christians in existence and should be recognised as the Standard bearers of that religion.   Are they?    ::)

Yes, you are hot breath/Brain.
And there is nothing extreme in what say. I simply do not display your soft bigotry but take the IS, hamas, boko  haram, hezb'allah boys at their own words and judge them by those and by their actions - and do not pretend, like you, that they are not docrinally impeccably Islamic.

I invite you to show us what they have said or done that has no koranic authority behind and is not based on well-established islamic historical precedent.



Brian Ross wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 2:43pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 12:50am: Never claimed.end to be a christian, hot breath. Sorry, are you addressing my question, Soren?   ::) Quote: But why would you not believe Muslims who claim to be Muslims and are quoting the Koran and act entirely in accordance with historical Islamic precedence of killing the unbelievers? There is nothing unprecedented in what the IS guys are doing. They know it, all other Muslims know it. Even you know it, no matter how much you'd pretend otherwise. Your soft bigotry of disbelieving them because you do not like what they say and do is pathetic, spineless, squishy and completely fake. What you believe and what the rest of the world knows are often at wild variance with one another, Soren. We have seen that you take the most extreme and fundamentalist interpretation you can, time after time, despite it being explained to you that Islam has changed since the 7th century.   This is why I suspect you are secretly a graduate from the most extreme and fundamentalist Madrassah possible.    ::)

Soren wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 3:14pm:

Yes, you are hot breath/Brain.

I am neither, Soren.   ::)


Quote:

And there is nothing extreme in what say. I simply do not display your soft bigotry but take the IS, hamas, boko  haram, hezb'allah boys at their own words and judge them by those and by their actions - and do not pretend, like you, that they are not docrinally impeccably Islamic.

Yet, when I suggest the same should be said about people such as Joseph Kony or Fred Phelps, you are one of the ones that protest, Soren.

Do you believe Joseph Kony or Fred Phelps are representative of what the average Christian believe?

Or are they Christian extremists?


Quote:

I invite you to show us what they have said or done that has no koranic authority behind and is not based on well-established islamic historical precedent.

I ask you to point me to what Joseph Kony or Fred Phelps have said or done which is not based on "well-established" Christian historical precedent.

Perhaps the point is you should be asking why does what IS has done so at variance with modern interpretations of Islamic belief, just as what Kony and Phelps (and his family) have done, is.

It appears for you and for IS, 1400 years of thinking has been thrown out the window.   You'd fit into their ranks without a blink, Soren.    ::)

Quote:

I suspect those at the top of IS are motived by their interpretation of Islam while those much further down are motived by their ruthless drive to gain power.

Well done Brian. One of the great truisms is that people with a lust for power end up at the bottom.


Quote:

We have seen that you take the most extreme and fundamentalist interpretation you can, time after time, despite it being explained to you that Islam has changed since the 7th century.

Can you find a Muslim who thinks it has changed since the 7th century?

I have not heard Kony or Phelps say anything christian. Can you show us anything?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 29^th, 2014 at 11:53pm:

Quote: They also said they had a list of the town’s Christian families and the tribute they had to pay to be able to continue living there.

How awful! They were required to pay a tax? At least Christians don't have to pay tax in Australia right? Much better off!

Annual tax on Christian family in Islamic State - -  -$400
Annual tax on Christian family in Australia - - - - - $20,000



Christians living in the Islamic State are taxed about 3% of their income.

Australian Christians are taxed about a third of their income.

Oh the tyranny!

freediver wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 4:03pm:

Quote: I suspect those at the top of IS are motived by their interpretation of Islam while those much further down are motived by their ruthless drive to gain power. Well done Brian. One of the great truisms is that people with a lust for power end up at the bottom.

No, FD, that is where they start.  They work their way up though, rather quickly.   They are often useful to those at the top, until those at the top suddenly find themselves being replaced.   This has happened in numerous revolutionary movements throughout history.


Quote:

[quote]We have seen that you take the most extreme and fundamentalist interpretation you can, time after time, despite it being explained to you that Islam has changed since the 7th century.

Can you find a Muslim who thinks it has changed since the 7th century?[/quote]

Yes.  Gandalf is one.  ;)

Soren wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 4:09pm:

I have not heard Kony or Phelps say anything christian. Can you show us anything?

Quote:

Thank God for the violent shooter, one of your soldier heroes in Tucson. God appointed the Afghanistan veteran to avenge himself on this evil nation. However many are dead, Westboro Baptist Church will picket their funerals. We will remind the living that you can still repent and obey. This is ultimatum time with God. Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Luke 13:3. This nation unleashed criminal violent veterans on Westboro Baptist Church for telling you to obey God. We told you at your soldiers' funerals that they are dying for your sins. You hate those words and you will not stop sinning. So you sent violent veterans, so-called patriot guard riders, to attack and try to silence Westboro Baptist Church. Then you sent violent crippled veteran Ryan Newell with 90 rounds of ammunition, planning to shoot five Westboro Baptist Church members while picketing. God restrained the hand of them all, then he turned the violent veteran on you. 22-year-old Jared Loughner opened fire outside a Tucson, Arizona grocery store, shooting Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, Federal Judge John M. Roll, and sixteen others. At least six are dead and counting. Congress passed three laws against Westboro Baptist Church. Congresswoman Giffords, an avid supporter of sin and baby-killing, was shot for that mischief. A federal judge in Baltimore, part of the massive military community in Maryland and in the District of Columbia, put Westboro Baptist Church on trial for faithful words from God. Federal Judge Roll paid for those sins with his life. Today, mouthy witch Sarah Palin had Representative Giffords in her crosshairs on her website. She quick took it down, however, because she is a cowardly brute like the rest of you. The crosshairs to worry about are God's and he's put you in his and your destruction is upon you. You should have obeyed. This nation of violent murderers is in full rebellion against God. God avenged himself on you today by a marvelous work in Tucson. He sits in the heavens and laughs at you in your affliction. Westboro Baptist Church prays for more shooters, more violent veterans, and more dead. Praise God for his righteous judgments in this Earth. Amen.     Fred Phelps, on the 2011 Tucson shooting.

[url=http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps]Source[/url]


Quote:

I had a faintly nerve-racking drink with Francis Ongom, one of Kony's ex-officers, who defected only recently and who would not agree to be questioned about his own past crimes. "Kony has refused Sudan's request that he allow his soldiers to convert to Islam," said this hardened-looking man as he imbibed a Red Bull through a straw, "but he has found Bible justifications for killing witches, for killing pigs because of the story of the Gadarene swine, and for killing people because god did the same with Noah's flood and Sodom and Gomorrah." Nice to know that he is immersed in the Good Book.

[url=http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/01/hitchens200601]Source[/url]

You were saying, Soren?   ::)

Quote:

No, FD, that is where they start.  They work their way up though, rather quickly.   They are often useful to those at the top, until those at the top suddenly find themselves being replaced.   This has happened in numerous revolutionary movements throughout history.

That sounds aweful. We risk the true Islamicness of the Islamic state being corrupted by those with a lust for power.


Quote:

Yes.  Gandalf is one.

Can you quote him saying that Islam has changed??

freediver wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 6:10pm:

Quote: No, FD, that is where they start.  They work their way up though, rather quickly.   They are often useful to those at the top, until those at the top suddenly find themselves being replaced.   This has happened in numerous revolutionary movements throughout history. That sounds aweful. We risk the true Islamicness of the Islamic state being corrupted by those with a lust for power.

And when it happens, what does that do to the claim that the Islamic State is well, Islamic?  We know Soren doesn't look beyond labels.  Are you the same, FD?   ::)


Quote:

[quote]Yes.  Gandalf is one.

Can you quote him saying that Islam has changed?? [/quote]

I'll let him speak for himself if he wants to, FD. 

I'd have thought the fact that Hadiths were created post Mohammed to explain Mohammed's thinking was sufficient evidence that Islam had changed since the death of Mohammed.  Of course, we could also talk about the Schisms but that might be embarrassing for you.  ;)

Phelps - isolated, including by law (respect for America's fallen heroes act).
Kony - you haven't given us anything other than a reporter's surmise.


If this is what you think is equal counterweight  to the Islamic ideology of countless Muslim terrorist organizations, than you a sadder, more deluded numpty than anyone expected.
:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 6:16pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 6:10pm: Quote: No, FD, that is where they start.  They work their way up though, rather quickly.   They are often useful to those at the top, until those at the top suddenly find themselves being replaced.   This has happened in numerous revolutionary movements throughout history. That sounds aweful. We risk the true Islamicness of the Islamic state being corrupted by those with a lust for power. And when it happens, what does that do to the claim that the Islamic State is well, Islamic?  We know Soren doesn't look beyond labels.  Are you the same, FD?   ::)

Still waiting for you to explain how, despite their own claims, they are not Islamic.
You say they do not speak for Islam. They say they do. Prove your point, Brain.

Soren wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 9:51pm:

Phelps - isolated, including by law (respect for America's fallen heroes act). Kony - you haven't given us anything other than a reporter's surmise.

No, a reporter's report of what one of Kony's military commanders knew about the man, Soren.

Both are, if we use YOUR logic, sterling examples of Christian belief and thinking.


Quote:

If this is what you think is equal counterweight  to the Islamic ideology of countless Muslim terrorist organizations, than you a sadder, more deluded numpty than anyone expected. :

Soren, you still miss the point.  Not atypical I've discovered amongst the more vehement zealots.   Takfiri just can't accept alternative explanations, nay they can't even tolerate them.   You are a most excellent graduate of that Madrassah that you attended!  Your Iman must be so pleased with your efforts to bring the true version of Islam to us unbelievers!  ;)

So why did a sydney mosque auction off an isis flag ?

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 11:16pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 9:51pm: Phelps - isolated, including by law (respect for America's fallen heroes act). Kony - you haven't given us anything other than a reporter's surmise. No, a reporter's report of what one of Kony's military commanders knew about the man, Soren. Both are, if we use YOUR logic, sterling examples of Christian belief and thinking. Quote: If this is what you think is equal counterweight  to the Islamic ideology of countless Muslim terrorist organizations, than you a sadder, more deluded numpty than anyone expected. : Soren, you still miss the point.  Not atypical I've discovered amongst the more vehement zealots.   Takfiri just can't accept alternative explanations, nay they can't even tolerate them.   You are a most excellent graduate of that Madrassah that you attended!  Your Iman must be so pleased with your efforts to bring the true version of Islam to us unbelievers!  ;)

You have not made any points, Brain, you simply equate extensive records of Islamic justifications for IS, Hamas et al with -  nothing from Kony and Phelps.  You declare equivalence without the slightest proof.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 7:44am:

So why did a sydney mosque auction off an isis flag ?

Perhaps 'cause it wasn't an ISIS flag?

Tell us, why did National Action auction off a Eureka Flag?  ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

|dev|null wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 4:49pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 7:44am: So why did a sydney mosque auction off an isis flag ? Perhaps 'cause it wasn't an ISIS flag? Tell us, why did National Action auction off a Eureka Flag?  ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

It's hardly the same, is it?

shaky3d wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 4:50pm:

|dev|null wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:49pm: Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 7:44am: So why did a sydney mosque auction off an isis flag ? Perhaps 'cause it wasn't an ISIS flag? Tell us, why did National Action auction off a Eureka Flag?  ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D It's hardly the same, is it?

Isn't it?  National Action was a terrorist organisation.  They used to firebomb Chinese restaurants. 

|dev|null wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 4:55pm:

shaky3d wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:50pm: |dev|null wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:49pm: Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 7:44am: So why did a sydney mosque auction off an isis flag ? Perhaps 'cause it wasn't an ISIS flag? Tell us, why did National Action auction off a Eureka Flag?  ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D It's hardly the same, is it? Isn't it?  National Action was a terrorist organisation.  They used to firebomb Chinese restaurants.

The Eureka Flag was flown when a battle erupted between miners and troopers over mining taxes on the Victorian Goldfields. It's a union movement flag. It's nothing to do with any nationalist movement. The ISIS is being flown by murderers.

So what flag was the Enola Gay flying under when nuked all those civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Should US flags be banned. Is the US flag a Nazi symbol?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/asia_pac_hiroshima_then_and_now/img/8.jpg

http://www.history.com/images/media/slideshow/harry-s-truman/harry-s-truman-hiroshima.jpg

http://plumdreams.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/claudia-am-flag1.jpg

You weren't one of the American GIs destined to  invade mainland Japan, were you? The Americans lost 200,000 men on a bunch of small islands. Imagine the death toll attacking mainland Japan. Imagine how many more people would of died in China and elsewhere if the bomb didn't stop the way. The Japanese had already slaughtered millions of Chinese.

shaky3d wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 5:00pm:

|dev|null wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:55pm: shaky3d wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:50pm: |dev|null wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:49pm: Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 7:44am: So why did a sydney mosque auction off an isis flag ? Perhaps 'cause it wasn't an ISIS flag? Tell us, why did National Action auction off a Eureka Flag?  ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D It's hardly the same, is it? Isn't it?  National Action was a terrorist organisation.  They used to firebomb Chinese restaurants.  The Eureka Flag was flown when a battle erupted between miners and troopers over mining taxes on the Victorian Goldfields. It's a union movement flag. It's nothing to do with any nationalist movement. The ISIS is being flown by murderers.

National Action, which became later known as the Australian Nationalist Movement, a racist group in Perth in the 1990s used it as their symbol.  They firebombed several Chinese restaurants.  Exactly what you've been proposing to do to Muslim shops and Mosques.   :P :P :P :P ;D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D

Team Murdoch wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 5:09pm:

So what flag was the Enola Gay flying under when nuked all those civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Should US flags be banned. Is the US flag a Nazi symbol?

Not a Nazi one but definitely a fascist one.   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

shaky3d wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 5:14pm:

You weren't one of the American GIs destined to  invade mainland Japan, were you? The Americans lost 200,000 men on a bunch of small islands. Imagine the death toll attacking mainland Japan. Imagine how many more people would of died in China and elsewhere if the bomb didn't stop the way. The Japanese had already slaughtered millions of Chinese.

And the relevance of this is?   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

Never know the Eureka Flag was a nationalist flag. Nobody knows it as that. Secondly  I made a suggestion as a joke directed at a radical Islamic bookshop peddling hate to impressionable young minds. Tell whoever you want because nobody cares. The authorities have their hands full going after your people supporting terrorist groups here and overseas.

|dev|null wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 5:28pm:

shaky3d wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 5:14pm: You weren't one of the American GIs destined to  invade mainland Japan, were you? The Americans lost 200,000 men on a bunch of small islands. Imagine the death toll attacking mainland Japan. Imagine how many more people would of died in China and elsewhere if the bomb didn't stop the way. The Japanese had already slaughtered millions of Chinese. And the relevance of this is?   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

If you don't see the point then why bother. It's like teaching a retarded kid maths.

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 11:16pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 9:51pm: Phelps - isolated, including by law (respect for America's fallen heroes act). Kony - you haven't given us anything other than a reporter's surmise. No, a reporter's report of what one of Kony's military commanders knew about the man, Soren. Both are, if we use YOUR logic, sterling examples of Christian belief and thinking. Quote: If this is what you think is equal counterweight  to the Islamic ideology of countless Muslim terrorist organizations, than you a sadder, more deluded numpty than anyone expected. : Soren, you still miss the point.  Not atypical I've discovered amongst the more vehement zealots.   Takfiri just can't accept alternative explanations, nay they can't even tolerate them.   You are a most excellent graduate of that Madrassah that you attended!  Your Iman must be so pleased with your efforts to bring the true version of Islam to us unbelievers!  ;)

Brian can you find any Australian churches selling selling Kony flags? How about Australian Christians flying over to fight for Kony? Our Muslims managed to get together about 100. Surely our much larger Christian community can put together a whole army, if your "logic" of equating them is anything more than spineless apologetics.

freediver wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 6:23pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 11:16pm: Soren wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 9:51pm: Phelps - isolated, including by law (respect for America's fallen heroes act). Kony - you haven't given us anything other than a reporter's surmise. No, a reporter's report of what one of Kony's military commanders knew about the man, Soren. Both are, if we use YOUR logic, sterling examples of Christian belief and thinking. Quote: If this is what you think is equal counterweight  to the Islamic ideology of countless Muslim terrorist organizations, than you a sadder, more deluded numpty than anyone expected. : Soren, you still miss the point.  Not atypical I've discovered amongst the more vehement zealots.   Takfiri just can't accept alternative explanations, nay they can't even tolerate them.   You are a most excellent graduate of that Madrassah that you attended!  Your Iman must be so pleased with your efforts to bring the true version of Islam to us unbelievers!  ;) Brian can you find any Australian churches selling selling Kony flags? How about Australian Christians flying over to fight for Kony? Our Muslims managed to get together about 100. Surely our much larger Christian community can put together a whole army, if your "logic" of equating them is anything more than spineless apologetics.

Brain, you are hoist by your own petard, you stupid goose.
(Can I say that?)



;D ;D ;D ;D

shaky3d wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 5:32pm:

Never know the Eureka Flag was a nationalist flag. Nobody knows it as that.

Except the entire nationalist movement.

What you mean is, "[I] never [knew] the Eureka Flag was a racist flag."   Well, it is, as afterall, most Australian racists hide behind the "nationalist" tag to promote their unacceptable views on race.

You know, it's like teaching politics to a Nationalist.  A complete waste of time as they never get beyond the idea that, "power comes from the barrel of a gun," or a jack boot.   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D


Quote:

Secondly  I made a suggestion as a joke directed at a radical Islamic bookshop peddling hate to impressionable young minds. Tell whoever you want because nobody cares. The authorities have their hands full going after your people supporting terrorist groups here and overseas.

My "people"?  I wasn't aware that my people were interested in terrorism.  DL tells me that all I'm interested in is wearing sandals and singing "Koom-by-ya!"   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

shaky3d wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 5:33pm:

|dev|null wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 5:28pm: shaky3d wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 5:14pm: You weren't one of the American GIs destined to  invade mainland Japan, were you? The Americans lost 200,000 men on a bunch of small islands. Imagine the death toll attacking mainland Japan. Imagine how many more people would of died in China and elsewhere if the bomb didn't stop the way. The Japanese had already slaughtered millions of Chinese. And the relevance of this is?   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D If you don't see the point then why bother. It's like teaching a retarded kid maths.

In otherwords, it has no relevance.    ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

|dev|null wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:49pm:

shaky3d wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 5:32pm: Never know the Eureka Flag was a nationalist flag. Nobody knows it as that. Except the entire nationalist movement. What you mean is, "[I] never [knew] the Eureka Flag was a racist flag."   Well, it is, as afterall, most Australian racists hide behind the "nationalist" tag to promote their unacceptable views on race. You know, it's like teaching politics to a Nationalist.  A complete waste of time as they never get beyond the idea that, "power comes from the barrel of a gun," or a jack boot.   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D Quote: Secondly  I made a suggestion as a joke directed at a radical Islamic bookshop peddling hate to impressionable young minds. Tell whoever you want because nobody cares. The authorities have their hands full going after your people supporting terrorist groups here and overseas. My "people"?  I wasn't aware that my people were interested in terrorism.  DL tells me that all I'm interested in is wearing sandals and singing "Koom-by-ya!"   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

I'm sorry to rain on your parade but the Eureka Flag isn't seen as a racist flag by the majority of people. It's mostly seen as a historical flag. If you see it as racist then that's your delusion. "Your people" are anybody that fall into a minority group.

shaky3d wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:53pm:

|dev|null wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:49pm: shaky3d wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 5:32pm: Never know the Eureka Flag was a nationalist flag. Nobody knows it as that. Except the entire nationalist movement. What you mean is, "[I] never [knew] the Eureka Flag was a racist flag."   Well, it is, as afterall, most Australian racists hide behind the "nationalist" tag to promote their unacceptable views on race. You know, it's like teaching politics to a Nationalist.  A complete waste of time as they never get beyond the idea that, "power comes from the barrel of a gun," or a jack boot.   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D Quote: Secondly  I made a suggestion as a joke directed at a radical Islamic bookshop peddling hate to impressionable young minds. Tell whoever you want because nobody cares. The authorities have their hands full going after your people supporting terrorist groups here and overseas. My "people"?  I wasn't aware that my people were interested in terrorism.  DL tells me that all I'm interested in is wearing sandals and singing "Koom-by-ya!"   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D I'm sorry to rain on your parade but the Eureka Flag isn't seen as a racist flag by the majority of people. It's mostly seen as a historical flag. If you see it as racist then that's your delusion. "Your people" are anybody that fall into a minority group.

I'm sorry to bring the sun out from behind the clouds and expose your ignorance to the light of day.  Most Australians recognise that racists hide behind the label of "Nationalist".   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D

|dev|null wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:17pm:

shaky3d wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:53pm: |dev|null wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:49pm: shaky3d wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 5:32pm: Never know the Eureka Flag was a nationalist flag. Nobody knows it as that. Except the entire nationalist movement. What you mean is, "[I] never [knew] the Eureka Flag was a racist flag."   Well, it is, as afterall, most Australian racists hide behind the "nationalist" tag to promote their unacceptable views on race. You know, it's like teaching politics to a Nationalist.  A complete waste of time as they never get beyond the idea that, "power comes from the barrel of a gun," or a jack boot.   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D Quote: Secondly  I made a suggestion as a joke directed at a radical Islamic bookshop peddling hate to impressionable young minds. Tell whoever you want because nobody cares. The authorities have their hands full going after your people supporting terrorist groups here and overseas. My "people"?  I wasn't aware that my people were interested in terrorism.  DL tells me that all I'm interested in is wearing sandals and singing "Koom-by-ya!"   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D I'm sorry to rain on your parade but the Eureka Flag isn't seen as a racist flag by the majority of people. It's mostly seen as a historical flag. If you see it as racist then that's your delusion. "Your people" are anybody that fall into a minority group. I'm sorry to bring the sun out from behind the clouds and expose your ignorance to the light of day.  Most Australians recognise that racists hide behind the label of "Nationalist".   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D

You know nothing about Australia. You wish you were one.

shaky3d wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:20pm:

|dev|null wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:17pm: shaky3d wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:53pm: |dev|null wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:49pm: shaky3d wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 5:32pm: Never know the Eureka Flag was a nationalist flag. Nobody knows it as that. Except the entire nationalist movement. What you mean is, "[I] never [knew] the Eureka Flag was a racist flag."   Well, it is, as afterall, most Australian racists hide behind the "nationalist" tag to promote their unacceptable views on race. You know, it's like teaching politics to a Nationalist.  A complete waste of time as they never get beyond the idea that, "power comes from the barrel of a gun," or a jack boot.   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D Quote: Secondly  I made a suggestion as a joke directed at a radical Islamic bookshop peddling hate to impressionable young minds. Tell whoever you want because nobody cares. The authorities have their hands full going after your people supporting terrorist groups here and overseas. My "people"?  I wasn't aware that my people were interested in terrorism.  DL tells me that all I'm interested in is wearing sandals and singing "Koom-by-ya!"   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D I'm sorry to rain on your parade but the Eureka Flag isn't seen as a racist flag by the majority of people. It's mostly seen as a historical flag. If you see it as racist then that's your delusion. "Your people" are anybody that fall into a minority group. I'm sorry to bring the sun out from behind the clouds and expose your ignorance to the light of day.  Most Australians recognise that racists hide behind the label of "Nationalist".   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D You know nothing about Australia. You wish you were one.

I am one.  It says so on my passport.    ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

|dev|null wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:25pm:

shaky3d wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:20pm: |dev|null wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:17pm: shaky3d wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:53pm: |dev|null wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:49pm: shaky3d wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 5:32pm: Never know the Eureka Flag was a nationalist flag. Nobody knows it as that. Except the entire nationalist movement. What you mean is, "[I] never [knew] the Eureka Flag was a racist flag."   Well, it is, as afterall, most Australian racists hide behind the "nationalist" tag to promote their unacceptable views on race. You know, it's like teaching politics to a Nationalist.  A complete waste of time as they never get beyond the idea that, "power comes from the barrel of a gun," or a jack boot.   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D Quote: Secondly  I made a suggestion as a joke directed at a radical Islamic bookshop peddling hate to impressionable young minds. Tell whoever you want because nobody cares. The authorities have their hands full going after your people supporting terrorist groups here and overseas. My "people"?  I wasn't aware that my people were interested in terrorism.  DL tells me that all I'm interested in is wearing sandals and singing "Koom-by-ya!"   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D I'm sorry to rain on your parade but the Eureka Flag isn't seen as a racist flag by the majority of people. It's mostly seen as a historical flag. If you see it as racist then that's your delusion. "Your people" are anybody that fall into a minority group. I'm sorry to bring the sun out from behind the clouds and expose your ignorance to the light of day.  Most Australians recognise that racists hide behind the label of "Nationalist".   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D You know nothing about Australia. You wish you were one. I am one.  It says so on my passport.    ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

No you're not. You just think you are. You are a sell out.

shaky3d wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:26pm:

No you're not. You just think you are. You are a sell out.

No, I know I am.  I am looking at my passport on the desk in front of me.  Definitely says, "Nationality:  Australian."  Your's says, "idiot".   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

doesn't matter what your passport says. you haven't any loyalty toward your own people. you're a hollow man.

shaky3d wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:41pm:

doesn't matter what your passport says.

Of course it does.  How else would I travel to other countries and back again?


Quote:

you haven't any loyalty toward your own people. you're a hollow man.

I have every loyalty to my people.  Lets see if you can work out who they are.    ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

boat people of any origin and abos

shaky3d wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:50pm:

boat people of any origin and abos

The group is a bit bigger than just those two.  Pity you're not a member of it.  It's referred to as "humanity" by it's members.    :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

I've never associated the Eureka flag with racism, or known it to be. It's associated with the union movement, and at worst, rednecks. I think you are confusing Australia and America.

freediver wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 7:02pm:

I've never associated the Eureka flag with racism, or known it to be. It's associated with the union movement, and at worst, rednecks. I think you are confusing Australia and America.

The Eureka flag’s been used by racist groups like Australia First and National Action since the 70s. It was all over their "Asians Out" signs and pamphlet in the 80s.

The flag had its origins in the 1854 miners’ rebellion in Ballarat, a labour movement that was almost overtaken by a group that sought to throw the Chinese out.

The union movement in Australia has always had a racist streak. The White Australia Policy was supported by the Labor Party to keep out lower-waged Islander cane cutters. When China turned red, yellow peril did the trick - a communist and racist threat in one.

Today, with organised labour all but gone, a new menace presents to distract us from how we organize our work and our lives. 

Today, we blame Islam.

The Eureka flag is a nice symbol for the tensions in the Australian dream.

freediver wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 6:23pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 11:16pm: Soren wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 9:51pm: Phelps - isolated, including by law (respect for America's fallen heroes act). Kony - you haven't given us anything other than a reporter's surmise. No, a reporter's report of what one of Kony's military commanders knew about the man, Soren. Both are, if we use YOUR logic, sterling examples of Christian belief and thinking. Quote: If this is what you think is equal counterweight  to the Islamic ideology of countless Muslim terrorist organizations, than you a sadder, more deluded numpty than anyone expected. : Soren, you still miss the point.  Not atypical I've discovered amongst the more vehement zealots.   Takfiri just can't accept alternative explanations, nay they can't even tolerate them.   You are a most excellent graduate of that Madrassah that you attended!  Your Iman must be so pleased with your efforts to bring the true version of Islam to us unbelievers!  ;) Brian can you find any Australian churches selling selling Kony flags? How about Australian Christians flying over to fight for Kony? Our Muslims managed to get together about 100. Surely our much larger Christian community can put together a whole army, if your "logic" of equating them is anything more than spineless apologetics.

Poor FD, poor, poor, FD.  You miss the point, yet again.  I wonder sometimes why you bother with this crusade against all things Islam and all Muslims.  Is it bigotry, pure and simple or is there something a little more sinister behind it?  Is it a double-bluff, Taqiyya, as Karnal has suggested?  I don't know, all I know is that you keep making pathetic attempts to make excuses for your and others behaviour towards Muslims.

When I equate Kony and Phelps to radical Islam, I do so to show the fallacy of your logic.  If the Islamist Salafists speak for Islam as you claim, why do they have so little support in the Muslim world?   It is akin to the claim that Kony and Phelps speaks for Christianity.  You know it's ridiculous, I know it's ridiculous - its an example of argument absurdium.  It isn't intended to be a serious attempt to claim the Islamists and Kony/Phelps are the same, rather it is an attempt to show how absurd your argument is.  It shows how silly your views on Islam are and you don't like it, so you attack me, personally instead and attempt to claim I am a "spineless apologetic".     ::) ::)

Keep it up, FD, it simply exposes your bigoted viewpoint for what it is - bigotry.

freediver wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 7:02pm:

I've never associated the Eureka flag with racism, or known it to be. It's associated with the union movement, and at worst, rednecks. I think you are confusing Australia and America.

No, FD, he's right.   National Action in the 1990s took over the Eureka Flag and perverted it's meaning.  Jack van Tongeren has a lot to answer for.   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 12:59am:

freediver wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 7:02pm: I've never associated the Eureka flag with racism, or known it to be. It's associated with the union movement, and at worst, rednecks. I think you are confusing Australia and America. No, FD, he's right.   National Action in the 1990s took over the Eureka Flag and perverted it's meaning.  Jack van Tongeren has a lot to answer for.   ::)

thats interesting I have never heard of him... so had to check with wiki...he seems to have spent more time in jail than anywhere else.. but the fact that he doesnt have a broad image tells me he is a bit of a non event..

now if he had chopped heads off or chopped a man up in the middle of a busy street I could understand your concern...as it is it looks very much to me like the law are keeping an eye on him and his little group.. and thats as should be.....

where as if anyone dare to suggest keeping an eye on or even banning certain extremist groups from other countries we get called RACIST..or bigots....

there is a mystery about Islam I dont understand it and never will....like most thing its meanings  gets twisted for the benefit of those that hide behind it...

ISIS for all I know just enjoys killing its a power thing......do they really find time for all the   beheading   and all the other bloodlusting in between prayers?? or do they have a special time set out for that purpose.??...or maybe praying is as important to extremists? ::)


have they lost their way??.. or are aussies being racist and demanding.??....

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 12:57am:

Poor FD, poor, poor, FD.  You miss the point, yet again.  I wonder sometimes why you bother with this crusade against all things Islam and all Muslims.  Is it bigotry, pure and simple or is there something a little more sinister behind it?  Is it a double-bluff, Taqiyya, as Karnal has suggested?  I don't know, all I know is that you keep making pathetic attempts to make excuses for your and others behaviour towards Muslims. When I equate Kony and Phelps to radical Islam, I do so to show the fallacy of your logic.  If the Islamist Salafists speak for Islam as you claim, why do they have so little support in the Muslim world?   It is akin to the claim that Kony and Phelps speaks for Christianity.  You know it's ridiculous, I know it's ridiculous - its an example of argument absurdium.  It isn't intended to be a serious attempt to claim the Islamists and Kony/Phelps are the same, rather it is an attempt to show how absurd your argument is.  It shows how silly your views on Islam are and you don't like it, so you attack me, personally instead and attempt to claim I am a "spineless apologetic".     ::) ::) Keep it up, FD, it simply exposes your bigoted viewpoint for what it is - bigotry.

You have not made any points, Brain, and you have exposed nothing except your own lack of argument (other than huffing and puffing). You simply equate extensive records of Islamic justifications for IS, Hamas et al with -  nothing from Kony and Phelps.  You declare equivalence without the slightest proof.

Islamists are extensively documented and they utterances are impeccably based on the Koran. They are supported by Muslims around the world. IS is controlling vast areas with oil and weapons. Hamas is in government in Gaza, there is a civil war in Syria, the Muslim Brotherhood was elected to govern in Egypt, the mullahs have been in power for over 30 years in Iran, etc, etc, etc. Saudi, Pakistan, the Taliban, Lybia, Sudan, Yemen, are all deeply Islamic and utterly unfree and disgusting places because of their Islamic ideology. They are not notable for their perversions of Islam but for their strictest adherence to it. There is nothing in any of their declarations and statements that YOU could point to as unIslamic. Nothing.

cods wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 8:34am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 12:59am: freediver wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 7:02pm: I've never associated the Eureka flag with racism, or known it to be. It's associated with the union movement, and at worst, rednecks. I think you are confusing Australia and America. No, FD, he's right.   National Action in the 1990s took over the Eureka Flag and perverted it's meaning.  Jack van Tongeren has a lot to answer for.   ::) thats interesting I have never heard of him... so had to check with wiki...he seems to have spent more time in jail than anywhere else.. but the fact that he doesnt have a broad image tells me he is a bit of a non event.. now if he had chopped heads off or chopped a man up in the middle of a busy street I could understand your concern...as it is it looks very much to me like the law are keeping an eye on him and his little group.. and thats as should be....

So blowing up a Maoist bookshop in Melbourne in the 1970s doesn’t count as terrorism?

That’s good to know, dear. A supplimentary if I may - why is the law able to contain the threat of neo-Nazi terrorism, but not Muslim terrorism?

I’m genuinely curious here. If there’s a real reason I’d like to know.

I mean, why are immigrants with names like van Tongeren and Saleam much less dangerous than ones called Muhammed and Mustapha?

And why do any threats posed by the Muhammeds and Mustaphas require extra-legal means to manage?

Again, genuinely curious. Anyone?

cods wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 8:34am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 12:59am: freediver wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 7:02pm: I've never associated the Eureka flag with racism, or known it to be. It's associated with the union movement, and at worst, rednecks. I think you are confusing Australia and America. No, FD, he's right.   National Action in the 1990s took over the Eureka Flag and perverted it's meaning.  Jack van Tongeren has a lot to answer for.   ::) thats interesting I have never heard of him... so had to check with wiki...he seems to have spent more time in jail than anywhere else.. but the fact that he doesnt have a broad image tells me he is a bit of a non event..

Tell that to his victims.


Quote:

now if he had chopped heads off or chopped a man up in the middle of a busy street I could understand your concern...as it is it looks very much to me like the law are keeping an eye on him and his little group.. and thats as should be.....

The law ignored him for quite a few years until he started acting out his Krystalnacht fantasies.


Quote:

where as if anyone dare to suggest keeping an eye on or even banning certain extremist groups from other countries we get called RACIST..or bigots....

Perhaps the problem is you don't suggest, "keeping an eye on or even banning certain extremist groups from other countries," but rather you and your ilk call for the persecution of all Muslims and even their deportation and the banning of the immigration of all Muslims to Australia, not on the basis of anything they may have actually done but because of something someone else completely different may have done several thousands of kilometres away.


Quote:

there is a mystery about Islam I dont understand it and never will....like most thing its meanings  gets twisted for the benefit of those that hide behind it...

And this is unique in what way?  All religions are like that.


Quote:

have they lost their way??.. or are aussies being racist and demanding.??....

Yes and yes.   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

|dev|null wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 11:58am:

your ilk call for the persecution of all Muslims and even their deportation and the banning of the immigration of all Muslims to Australia, not on the basis of anything they may have actually done but because of something someone else completely different may have done several thousands of kilometres away.

Shurely not!

|dev|null wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 11:58am:

cods wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 8:34am: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 12:59am: freediver wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 7:02pm: I've never associated the Eureka flag with racism, or known it to be. It's associated with the union movement, and at worst, rednecks. I think you are confusing Australia and America. No, FD, he's right.   National Action in the 1990s took over the Eureka Flag and perverted it's meaning.  Jack van Tongeren has a lot to answer for.   ::) thats interesting I have never heard of him... so had to check with wiki...he seems to have spent more time in jail than anywhere else.. but the fact that he doesnt have a broad image tells me he is a bit of a non event.. Tell that to his victims. WHAT VICTIMS ARE THEY AS I SAID.. HE IS DOING A LOT OF JAIL TIME.. Quote: now if he had chopped heads off or chopped a man up in the middle of a busy street I could understand your concern...as it is it looks very much to me like the law are keeping an eye on him and his little group.. and thats as should be..... The law ignored him for quite a few years until he started acting out his Krystalnacht fantasies. HOW COME HE HAS FLOWN UNDER THE RADAR THEN?? HOW VIOLENT IS HE [quote] where as if anyone dare to suggest keeping an eye on or even banning certain extremist groups from other countries we get called RACIST..or bigots....

Perhaps the problem is you don't suggest, "keeping an eye on or even banning certain extremist groups from other countries," but rather you and your ilk call for the persecution of all Muslims and even their deportation and the banning of the immigration of all Muslims to Australia, not on the basis of anything they may have actually done but because of something someone else completely different may have done several thousands of kilometres away.


Quote:

there is a mystery about Islam I dont understand it and never will....like most thing its meanings  gets twisted for the benefit of those that hide behind it...

And this is unique in what way?  All religions are like that.


CAN YOU DESCRIBE OTHER WELL KNOW RELIGIONS THAT TELL THEIR FOLLOWS TO GO OUT AND KILL ANYONE THAT DOESNT BELIEVE IN THEIR RELIGION???





Quote:

have they lost their way??.. or are aussies being racist and demanding.??....

Yes and yes.   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D[/quote]



CAN YOU BE MORE SPECIFIC??


WHY IS IT RACISTS TO BE AGAINST SUCH APPALLING VIOLENCE

Soren wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 8:51am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 12:57am: Poor FD, poor, poor, FD.  You miss the point, yet again.  I wonder sometimes why you bother with this crusade against all things Islam and all Muslims.  Is it bigotry, pure and simple or is there something a little more sinister behind it?  Is it a double-bluff, Taqiyya, as Karnal has suggested?  I don't know, all I know is that you keep making pathetic attempts to make excuses for your and others behaviour towards Muslims. When I equate Kony and Phelps to radical Islam, I do so to show the fallacy of your logic.  If the Islamist Salafists speak for Islam as you claim, why do they have so little support in the Muslim world?   It is akin to the claim that Kony and Phelps speaks for Christianity.  You know it's ridiculous, I know it's ridiculous - its an example of argument absurdium.  It isn't intended to be a serious attempt to claim the Islamists and Kony/Phelps are the same, rather it is an attempt to show how absurd your argument is.  It shows how silly your views on Islam are and you don't like it, so you attack me, personally instead and attempt to claim I am a "spineless apologetic".     ::) ::) Keep it up, FD, it simply exposes your bigoted viewpoint for what it is - bigotry. You have not made any points, Brain, and you have exposed nothing except your own lack of argument (other than huffing and puffing). You simply equate extensive records of Islamic justifications for IS, Hamas et al with -  nothing from Kony and Phelps.  You declare equivalence without the slightest proof. Islamists are extensively documented and they utterances are impeccably based on the Koran. They are supported by Muslims around the world. IS is controlling vast areas with oil and weapons. Hamas is in government in Gaza, there is a civil war in Syria, the Muslim Brotherhood was elected to govern in Egypt, the mullahs have been in power for over 30 years in Iran, etc, etc, etc. Saudi, Pakistan, the Taliban, Lybia, Sudan, Yemen, are all deeply Islamic and utterly unfree and disgusting places because of their Islamic ideology. They are not notable for their perversions of Islam but for their strictest adherence to it. There is nothing in any of their declarations and statements that YOU could point to as unIslamic. Nothing.

bump

cods wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 1:23pm:

|dev|null wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 11:58am: cods wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 8:34am: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 12:59am: freediver wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 7:02pm: I've never associated the Eureka flag with racism, or known it to be. It's associated with the union movement, and at worst, rednecks. I think you are confusing Australia and America. No, FD, he's right.   National Action in the 1990s took over the Eureka Flag and perverted it's meaning.  Jack van Tongeren has a lot to answer for.   ::) thats interesting I have never heard of him... so had to check with wiki...he seems to have spent more time in jail than anywhere else.. but the fact that he doesnt have a broad image tells me he is a bit of a non event.. Tell that to his victims. WHAT VICTIMS ARE THEY AS I SAID.. HE IS DOING A LOT OF JAIL TIME.. The owners of the Chinese Restaurants that he had firebombed?  David Locke? Quote: [quote] now if he had chopped heads off or chopped a man up in the middle of a busy street I could understand your concern...as it is it looks very much to me like the law are keeping an eye on him and his little group.. and thats as should be..... The law ignored him for quite a few years until he started acting out his Krystalnacht fantasies. HOW COME HE HAS FLOWN UNDER THE RADAR THEN?? HOW VIOLENT IS HE

He "flew", he no longer "flies" under the radar.

I'd suggest murder and fire bombing were pretty violent, don't you Sprint?


Quote:

[quote] where as if anyone dare to suggest keeping an eye on or even banning certain extremist groups from other countries we get called RACIST..or bigots....

Perhaps the problem is you don't suggest, "keeping an eye on or even banning certain extremist groups from other countries," but rather you and your ilk call for the persecution of all Muslims and even their deportation and the banning of the immigration of all Muslims to Australia, not on the basis of anything they may have actually done but because of something someone else completely different may have done several thousands of kilometres away.


Quote:

there is a mystery about Islam I dont understand it and never will....like most thing its meanings  gets twisted for the benefit of those that hide behind it...

And this is unique in what way?  All religions are like that.

CAN YOU DESCRIBE OTHER WELL KNOW RELIGIONS THAT TELL THEIR FOLLOWS TO GO OUT AND KILL ANYONE THAT DOESNT BELIEVE IN THEIR RELIGION???

[/quote]

Christianity has a long record of doing exactly that Sprint.


Quote:

[quote] have they lost their way??.. or are aussies being racist and demanding.??....

Yes and yes.   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D[/quote]

CAN YOU BE MORE SPECIFIC??
[/quote]

Are you really that stupid?


Quote:

WHY IS IT RACISTS TO BE AGAINST SUCH APPALLING VIOLENCE

It isn't.  It is racist or bigoted to claim all members of an ethnic/religious group are involved when demonstrably they are not.  Are you really that stupid you can't grasp that?

Why are you shouting?   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D

Karnal wrote:
Quote:

why is the law able to contain the threat of neo-Nazi terrorism, but not Muslim terrorism? I’m genuinely curious here. If there’s a real reason I’d like to know. I mean, why are immigrants with names like van Tongeren and Saleam much less dangerous than ones called Muhammed and Mustapha? And why do any threats posed by the Muhammeds and Mustaphas require extra-legal means to manage? Again, genuinely curious. Anyone?

Answer: 1.5 billion muslims and their innumerable apologists all bound by the terrorism, torture and mass murder, which is instructed, condoned and glorified, by the conglomeration of evil:  islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an and hadi'th.

Other terrorist nutjobs pale into insignificance, when compared with your islamic mates.
   
I challenge muslims and their apologists to declare as evil, wrong and totally irrelevant in the 21st century, the teachings and commands of  islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an and hadi'th, which are the root cause of islamic terrorism.

moses wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 4:16pm:

Karnal wrote: Quote: why is the law able to contain the threat of neo-Nazi terrorism, but not Muslim terrorism? I’m genuinely curious here. If there’s a real reason I’d like to know. I mean, why are immigrants with names like van Tongeren and Saleam much less dangerous than ones called Muhammed and Mustapha? And why do any threats posed by the Muhammeds and Mustaphas require extra-legal means to manage? Again, genuinely curious. Anyone? Answer: 1.5 billion muslims and their innumerable apologists all bound by the terrorism, torture and mass murder, which is instructed, condoned and glorified, by the conglomeration of evil:  islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an and hadi'th. Other terrorist nutjobs pale into insignificance, when compared with your islamic mates.

Oh, I know. Seven million Jews killed in an industrial production process less than 60 years ago. The root cause of that one was:

1. Adolf Hitler.
2. Racial ideology.
3. Something sinister in the geist of the German people.
4. The dialectics of modernity and the telos of Western rationality.
5. Islam.

Take your time, Moses. It used to be thought that the very existence of humankind depended on the answer to that question.

Before we had Islam, I mean.

|dev|null wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 3:04pm:

cods wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 1:23pm: |dev|null wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 11:58am: cods wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 8:34am: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 12:59am: freediver wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 7:02pm: I've never associated the Eureka flag with racism, or known it to be. It's associated with the union movement, and at worst, rednecks. I think you are confusing Australia and America. No, FD, he's right.   National Action in the 1990s took over the Eureka Flag and perverted it's meaning.  Jack van Tongeren has a lot to answer for.   ::) thats interesting I have never heard of him... so had to check with wiki...he seems to have spent more time in jail than anywhere else.. but the fact that he doesnt have a broad image tells me he is a bit of a non event.. Tell that to his victims. WHAT VICTIMS ARE THEY AS I SAID.. HE IS DOING A LOT OF JAIL TIME.. The owners of the Chinese Restaurants that he had firebombed?  David Locke? Quote: [quote] now if he had chopped heads off or chopped a man up in the middle of a busy street I could understand your concern...as it is it looks very much to me like the law are keeping an eye on him and his little group.. and thats as should be..... The law ignored him for quite a few years until he started acting out his Krystalnacht fantasies. HOW COME HE HAS FLOWN UNDER THE RADAR THEN?? HOW VIOLENT IS HE He "flew", he no longer "flies" under the radar. I'd suggest murder and fire bombing were pretty violent, don't you Sprint? [quote] [quote] where as if anyone dare to suggest keeping an eye on or even banning certain extremist groups from other countries we get called RACIST..or bigots....

Perhaps the problem is you don't suggest, "keeping an eye on or even banning certain extremist groups from other countries," but rather you and your ilk call for the persecution of all Muslims and even their deportation and the banning of the immigration of all Muslims to Australia, not on the basis of anything they may have actually done but because of something someone else completely different may have done several thousands of kilometres away.


Quote:

there is a mystery about Islam I dont understand it and never will....like most thing its meanings  gets twisted for the benefit of those that hide behind it...

And this is unique in what way?  All religions are like that.

CAN YOU DESCRIBE OTHER WELL KNOW RELIGIONS THAT TELL THEIR FOLLOWS TO GO OUT AND KILL ANYONE THAT DOESNT BELIEVE IN THEIR RELIGION???

[/quote]

Christianity has a long record of doing exactly that Sprint.


Quote:

[quote] have they lost their way??.. or are aussies being racist and demanding.??....

Yes and yes.   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D[/quote]

CAN YOU BE MORE SPECIFIC??
[/quote]

Are you really that stupid?


Quote:

WHY IS IT RACISTS TO BE AGAINST SUCH APPALLING VIOLENCE

It isn't.  It is racist or bigoted to claim all members of an ethnic/religious group are involved when demonstrably they are not.  Are you really that stupid you can't grasp that?

Why are you shouting?   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D[/quote]


I am not shouting just making sure my comments can be read if I shout it looks like this .. I am SHOUTING

just for future reference you understand...

I think its easier to read if its bold.. thats all.. wont do it in future for yourself..


why is it all right for a lefty to claim all people who voted in the ABbott govt are a pot of pizz...

at least I havent seen you fall about over that....

you see in a fair world you will be appalled at all and not just the selected bits...

to be honest I prefer not to think about muslims...

I find anyone that follows something that is assumed to have been directed from many 100s of years ago ... strange........

just like I view the American Constitution that gave every American the right to be armed to the teeth......in 2014.

the books  the Koran the Bible the Constitution were not written with today in mind....

and anyone that follows the direction ....to mean they were written with 2014 in mind..

I believe uses that for the complete wrong reason

ok show me where the Bible tells their followers to go out and kill someone because he is a jew or a muslim...or a Buddhist....

and then tell me which gangs follow these words to mean thats how he/she should live today..


yes I am wary of muslims..I walk the other way...

although a Christian I havent been tempted to kill one yet.

Karnal wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 5:59pm:

moses wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 4:16pm: Karnal wrote: Quote: why is the law able to contain the threat of neo-Nazi terrorism, but not Muslim terrorism? I’m genuinely curious here. If there’s a real reason I’d like to know. I mean, why are immigrants with names like van Tongeren and Saleam much less dangerous than ones called Muhammed and Mustapha? And why do any threats posed by the Muhammeds and Mustaphas require extra-legal means to manage? Again, genuinely curious. Anyone? Answer: 1.5 billion muslims and their innumerable apologists all bound by the terrorism, torture and mass murder, which is instructed, condoned and glorified, by the conglomeration of evil:  islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an and hadi'th. Other terrorist nutjobs pale into insignificance, when compared with your islamic mates. Oh, I know. Seven million Jews killed in an industrial production process less than 60 years ago. The root cause of that one was: 1. Adolf Hitler. 2. Racial ideology. 3. Something sinister in the geist of the German people. 4. The dialectics of modernity and the telos of Western rationality. 5. Islam. Take your time, Moses. It used to be thought that the very existence of humankind depended on the answer to that question. Before we had Islam, I mean.

HITLER and Nazism where annihilated in case you have forgotten.

they were tried in a world court where it became apparent the world was appalled by NAZISM  and all it stood for... do we accuse ev ery GERMAN of being a NAZI???.

I happen to think the world is still appalled by those 6 years.....

to equate  WW11 with Islam and what is happening under that banner today... I find irrational..

they are both sick both dangerous and by your own admission.. need to be eradicated...

yet we know and we see and we read every day more and more join ISIS.....more peaceful muslims are joining...this is a fact.. its happening here.

would it be ok if NAZISM took a hold here because we sat back and said... ooops thats racist to be against that.. cant do that... cant judge..they have as much rights as the rest of us.,.. if they want to build bombs whats it got to do with the rest of us?...

if good Germans could turn bad.. so too can good muslims....what we are saying is we havent learnt a thing if we think this is only happening overseas it doesnt concern us..not our problem

Quote:

That’s good to know, dear. A supplimentary if I may - why is the law able to contain the threat of neo-Nazi terrorism, but not Muslim terrorism?

Because we are familiar with the threat of Nazism. Muslims can still get away with playing the victim card every time someone criticises the ideology of Islam. You see it right here on this forum, with Brian for example insisting all criticism of Islam is bigotry. People would laugh if every time we spoke out against Nazism Brian whined that we were being wacist and bigoted against Germans or Aryans. But for some reason this logic gets reversed for Islamism. When the Nazis first came to power, there were people like Brian and they did say the same things about Nazism that Brian is now saying about Islam. Even with ISIS hacking and raping it's way across the middle east Brian still insists we speak out out of bigotry, but history will paint the Brians and Karnals as no better than those who wanted to let the Nazis run wild in the interests of everyone getting along.

Islamism is a supremacist ideology not that different from Nazism. The biggest difference is that it is an ideology of religious supremacy rather than racial supremacy. It takes all sorts, so long as they submit.

freediver wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 6:44pm:

Quote: That’s good to know, dear. A supplimentary if I may - why is the law able to contain the threat of neo-Nazi terrorism, but not Muslim terrorism? Because we are familiar with the threat of Nazism. Muslims can still get away with playing the victim card every time someone criticises the ideology of Islam. You see it right here on this forum, with Brian for example insisting all criticism of Islam is bigotry. People would laugh if every time we spoke out against Nazism Brian whined that we were being wacist and bigoted against Germans or Aryans. But for some reason this logic gets reversed for Islamism. When the Nazis first came to power, there were people like Brian and they did say the same things about Nazism that Brian is now saying about Islam. Even with ISIS hacking and raping it's way across the middle east Brian still insists we speak out out of bigotry, but history will paint the Brians and Karnals as no better than those who wanted to let the Nazis run wild in the interests of everyone getting along. Islamism is a supremacist ideology not that different from Nazism. The biggest difference is that it is an ideology of religious supremacy rather than racial supremacy. It takes all sorts, so long as they submit.

[smiley=thumbsup.gif]

cods wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 6:39pm:

Karnal wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 5:59pm: moses wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 4:16pm: Karnal wrote: Quote: why is the law able to contain the threat of neo-Nazi terrorism, but not Muslim terrorism? I’m genuinely curious here. If there’s a real reason I’d like to know. I mean, why are immigrants with names like van Tongeren and Saleam much less dangerous than ones called Muhammed and Mustapha? And why do any threats posed by the Muhammeds and Mustaphas require extra-legal means to manage? Again, genuinely curious. Anyone? Answer: 1.5 billion muslims and their innumerable apologists all bound by the terrorism, torture and mass murder, which is instructed, condoned and glorified, by the conglomeration of evil:  islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an and hadi'th. Other terrorist nutjobs pale into insignificance, when compared with your islamic mates. Oh, I know. Seven million Jews killed in an industrial production process less than 60 years ago. The root cause of that one was: 1. Adolf Hitler. 2. Racial ideology. 3. Something sinister in the geist of the German people. 4. The dialectics of modernity and the telos of Western rationality. 5. Islam. Take your time, Moses. It used to be thought that the very existence of humankind depended on the answer to that question. Before we had Islam, I mean. HITLER and Nazism where annihilated in case you have forgotten. they were tried in a world court where it became apparent the world was appalled by NAZISM  and all it stood for... do we accuse ev ery GERMAN of being a NAZI???. I happen to think the world is still appalled by those 6 years..... to equate  WW11 with Islam and what is happening under that banner today... I find irrational..

Hear that, FD? Better put Cods down on the Neville Chamberlain list.

Otherwise, a good post, Cods. Nice to see you addressing the topic at hand.

And yes, like the Nazis, ISIS does need to be addressed. Somehow.

Like the US president - with an entire State Department, intelligence Agency, and network of global alliances - I still don’t know how yet.

I’m not as smart, you see, as many of the members of this board. I’m certainly not as up to date on world events as FD.

He’s been watching the newsreels at the Saturday matinees.

Islamism is not a private devotion and adhering to it is an act, not an accident.
The clothes, beards, manners, speech, values- all point to the degree of belief in the external, political force of Islamism. 
You can't tell apart a Christian or a Muslim for whom their religion is just that. But you can tell an islamist from a mile. They telegraph their political, public aims.

Soren wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 10:55pm:

Islamism is not a private devotion and adhering to it is an act, not an accident. The clothes, beards, manners, speech, values- all point to the degree of belief in the external, political force of Islamism.  You can't tell apart a Christian or a Muslim for whom their religion is just that. But you can tell an islamist from a mile. They telegraph their political, public aims.

Have you checked out the fashion statements of the more hip Greek Orthadox priests?

You’d be forgiven for thinking you’re at a casting call for pharisees in Jesus Christ Superstar.

Soren wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 8:51am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 12:57am: Poor FD, poor, poor, FD.  You miss the point, yet again.  I wonder sometimes why you bother with this crusade against all things Islam and all Muslims.  Is it bigotry, pure and simple or is there something a little more sinister behind it?  Is it a double-bluff, Taqiyya, as Karnal has suggested?  I don't know, all I know is that you keep making pathetic attempts to make excuses for your and others behaviour towards Muslims. When I equate Kony and Phelps to radical Islam, I do so to show the fallacy of your logic.  If the Islamist Salafists speak for Islam as you claim, why do they have so little support in the Muslim world?   It is akin to the claim that Kony and Phelps speaks for Christianity.  You know it's ridiculous, I know it's ridiculous - its an example of argument absurdium.  It isn't intended to be a serious attempt to claim the Islamists and Kony/Phelps are the same, rather it is an attempt to show how absurd your argument is.  It shows how silly your views on Islam are and you don't like it, so you attack me, personally instead and attempt to claim I am a "spineless apologetic".     ::) ::) Keep it up, FD, it simply exposes your bigoted viewpoint for what it is - bigotry. You have not made any points, Brain, and you have exposed nothing except your own lack of argument (other than huffing and puffing).

No argument?  What is "argument absurdium" then, Soren?   ::)

cods wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 8:34am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 12:59am: freediver wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 7:02pm: I've never associated the Eureka flag with racism, or known it to be. It's associated with the union movement, and at worst, rednecks. I think you are confusing Australia and America. No, FD, he's right.   National Action in the 1990s took over the Eureka Flag and perverted it's meaning.  Jack van Tongeren has a lot to answer for.   ::) thats interesting I have never heard of him...

Either you're ignorant or you had your head buried in the sands in the 1990s or you're too young to have understood what was happening at the time, Adamant.   Once you've caught up with the adults, get back to us, OK?   ::)

freediver wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 6:44pm:

Quote: That’s good to know, dear. A supplimentary if I may - why is the law able to contain the threat of neo-Nazi terrorism, but not Muslim terrorism? Because we are familiar with the threat of Nazism. Muslims can still get away with playing the victim card every time someone criticises the ideology of Islam. You see it right here on this forum, with Brian for example insisting all criticism of Islam is bigotry.

No, not all criticism of Islam is bigotry.  I suggest you acquaint yourself with the definition, FD.   It will allow you to understand the point being made when I utilise it.

Oh, and please remember:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2007 at 5:56pm:

What we need to do is stop alienating the entire muslim community and work with them towards the goals we have in common. The more we tar them all with the same brush, the more we push weaker individuals towards extremism.

Guess what bigotry does?  It alienates the entire Muslim community.   ::)

BTW, keep up the thatching, you're getting very good at it.  Soon you'll be able to take it up professionally.  ;)

cods wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 6:23pm:

yes I am wary of muslims..I walk the other way...

Do they scare you that much?   ::)


Quote:

although a Christian I havent been tempted to kill one yet.

As a Christian, what do you think of the commandment, "Thou shall not kill"?

Would you obey it?

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 12:41am:

cods wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 6:23pm: yes I am wary of muslims..I walk the other way... Do they scare you that much?   ::) yes they do.. I like to see faces not eyes. Quote: although a Christian I havent been tempted to kill one yet. As a Christian, what do you think of the commandment, "Thou shall not kill"? Would you obey it?

of course......except for self preservation...which is a natural instinct and that goes for my family its human nature and we are born with it..

but to wantonly go out and kill.......for the hell of it.. I hope not.....

we can only live by the 10 commandments if everyone does... I think that was gods intention dont you? ::) ::)

trying to read his mind... :D

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 12:33am:

cods wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 8:34am: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 12:59am: freediver wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 7:02pm: I've never associated the Eureka flag with racism, or known it to be. It's associated with the union movement, and at worst, rednecks. I think you are confusing Australia and America. No, FD, he's right.   National Action in the 1990s took over the Eureka Flag and perverted it's meaning.  Jack van Tongeren has a lot to answer for.   ::) thats interesting I have never heard of him... Either you're ignorant or you had your head buried in the sands in the 1990s or you're too young to have understood what was happening at the time, Adamant.   Once you've caught up with the adults, get back to us, OK?   ::)

well that leaves you out doesnt it..Mr ignorant.

Karnal wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 11:49pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 10:55pm: Islamism is not a private devotion and adhering to it is an act, not an accident. The clothes, beards, manners, speech, values- all point to the degree of belief in the external, political force of Islamism.  You can't tell apart a Christian or a Muslim for whom their religion is just that. But you can tell an islamist from a mile. They telegraph their political, public aims. Have you checked out the fashion statements of the more hip Greek Orthadox priests? You’d be forgiven for thinking you’re at a casting call for pharisees in Jesus Christ Superstar.

most do not walk the streets though do they??>..

at least I havent seen the archbishop in all his finery down at Coles lately.

Karnal wrote:
Quote:

why is the law able to contain the threat of neo-Nazi terrorism, but not Muslim terrorism? I’m genuinely curious here. If there’s a real reason I’d like to know.

Scale.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-matrix/archives/2014/09/the_islamic_state_and_the_sham.php

Soren wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 8:45am:

Karnal wrote: Quote: why is the law able to contain the threat of neo-Nazi terrorism, but not Muslim terrorism? I’m genuinely curious here. If there’s a real reason I’d like to know. Scale. http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-matrix/archives/2014/09/the_islamic_state_and_the_sham.php

Uncle didn’t enter WWII until he was attacked by the Japs. This was despite all of Central Europe being occupied, intelligence reports of the concentration camps and Jewish genocide, and a war on two fronts with two of Uncles allies.

And now, you want Uncle to invade Iraq and Syria to contain the threat of - what? A few hundred expat jihadis?

ISIS needs to be dealt with - I’m not sure how. But comparing the threat of radical Islam today with the global security threats we’ve seen only very recently in Western history is ludicrous. Hundreds of millions were killed in the wars of the 20th century - more if we include the clean-ups afterwards. All these wars were between the Western powers and Western offshoots like the USSR.

ISIS will never be capable of starting a war like WWII, a war that was over and done with in six years. At best, through its global networks, ISIS is capable of causing isolated incidents of terrorism and hostage-taking in the West.

The danger here is not the threat of ISIS to the West, but the Western powers being drawn into a protracted military intervention and occupation that would then spread throughout the region. In this sense, it’s not the threat of jihadist armies like ISIL, but the threat posed by ourselves - placing ourselves, yet again, as a target in the so-called global jihad

You didn’t hear this in 2003, so hear it now. This is not a military problem. We are not going to be invaded by ISIS. If we go in, we’ll never get out. And if we go in, we merely raise the risk of terrorism , kidnapping, etc, in retaliation.

The war drums are beating. Fox News and the Murdoch dailies are in overdrive. The Libs are all over it, and desperate to shift the emphasis from domestic politics to security. 

This time, the US president is not so keen, but as we can see so clearly with our own government, politicians respond to popular demand.  All the bleating on social media and sites like this has an effect, even if it’s just on the polls.

"Just" on the polls?

Going back into Iraq without a foolproof plan is the most stupid thing any "coalition" could do right now, but just look at how stupid and inept we’ve been in the last decade alone.

Going back for more is just begging to be rogered by the head-hackers. But then, you’ve always loved a jolly rogering, haven’t you, old dear. 

cods wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 6:23pm:

Quote: Why are you shouting?   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D I am not shouting just making sure my comments can be read if I shout it looks like this .. I am SHOUTING just for future reference you understand... I think its easier to read if its bold.. thats all.. wont do it in future for yourself..

Capitalisation is usually taken as "shouting" in most forums.

Thank you.  I don't see what is wrong with just using the normal quote function...


Quote:

why is it all right for a lefty to claim all people who voted in the ABbott govt are a pot of pizz... at least I havent seen you fall about over that.... you see in a fair world you will be appalled at all and not just the selected bits...

You appear unable or unwilling to recognise that discrimination based on religion or race (or other things beyond the control of the individual) is considered a bad thing by society.

If you took any of the rants here against Muslims and substituted the word "Jews" or "black people" I think it would be obvious how bad they were but it seems to some people that persecuting Muslims is fair game.


Quote:

to be honest I prefer not to think about muslims...

So why attack them?


Quote:

I find anyone that follows something that is assumed to have been directed from many 100s of years ago ... strange........ just like I view the American Constitution that gave every American the right to be armed to the teeth......in 2014. the books  the Koran the Bible the Constitution were not written with today in mind.... and anyone that follows the direction ....to mean they were written with 2014 in mind.. I believe uses that for the complete wrong reason ok show me where the Bible tells their followers to go out and kill someone because he is a jew or a muslim...or a Buddhist....

Deuteronomy 17:12
Exodus 22:17
2 Chronicles 15:12-13
Deuteronomy 13:13-19
Deuteronomy 13:7-12
Jeremiah 48:10
Matthew 5:43-44


Quote:

and then tell me which gangs follow these words to mean thats how he/she should live today..

Lord's Resistance Army
US Army
US Air Force
US Navy


Quote:

yes I am wary of muslims..I walk the other way...

Why?


Quote:

although a Christian I havent been tempted to kill one yet.

Obviously you aren't following the instruction manual then.   ;D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D

|dev|null wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 11:08am:

Capitalisation is usually taken as "shouting" in most forums. ... Obviously you aren't following the instruction manual then.   ;D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D

What are walls of laughter and rolling eyeballs usually "taken as"?

Karnal wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 10:46am:

Soren wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 8:45am: Karnal wrote: Quote: why is the law able to contain the threat of neo-Nazi terrorism, but not Muslim terrorism? I’m genuinely curious here. If there’s a real reason I’d like to know. Scale. http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-matrix/archives/2014/09/the_islamic_state_and_the_sham.php Uncle didn’t enter WWII until he was attacked by the Japs. This was despite all of Central Europe being occupied, intelligence reports of the concentration camps and Jewish genocide, and a war on two fronts with two of Uncles allies.

Uncle has been attacked, repeatedly, in the last 20 years. Most recently when two of its citizens were beheaded for being its citizens. No self-respecting country lets that pass and certainly no self-respecting superpower. The US Marines dealt with just this sort of thing in the Barbary Wars.

The IS boys want to spread beyond Iraq and Syria. They would take over all the sunni real estate and then turn on Iran in attempt to conclude the 1400 year Muslim civil war between sunnis and shiites. But that's not the end of it for them. They want the caliphate to spread over Europe and the world. Now that's a very tall order but you have to take them at THEIR word.

If you wanted to emulate Uncle during WWII and not enter the war, you would also emulate the other side of the ledger - deport or intern all hostile aliens and stop entry to newcomers.  You can't let jihad run its course because it's not your business AND let them in because that's your business. That's crazy. If you want to keep out then also keep them out.


Let them all go, close the gates and bomb them as a matter of punishment and let the other Arabs and Muslims on the ground fight. This will not stop until they have had enough of killing each other. You are not dealing with wholly rational players.

Datalife wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 11:12am:

|dev|null wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 11:08am: Capitalisation is usually taken as "shouting" in most forums. ... Obviously you aren't following the instruction manual then.   ;D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D What are walls of laughter and rolling eyeballs usually "taken as"?

Derision.   :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

Soren wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 11:38am:

Karnal wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 10:46am: Soren wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 8:45am: Karnal wrote: Quote: why is the law able to contain the threat of neo-Nazi terrorism, but not Muslim terrorism? I’m genuinely curious here. If there’s a real reason I’d like to know. Scale. http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-matrix/archives/2014/09/the_islamic_state_and_the_sham.php Uncle didn’t enter WWII until he was attacked by the Japs. This was despite all of Central Europe being occupied, intelligence reports of the concentration camps and Jewish genocide, and a war on two fronts with two of Uncles allies. Uncle has been attacked, repeatedly, in the last 20 years. Most recently when two of its citizens were beheaded for being its citizens. No self-respecting country lets that pass and certainly no self-respecting superpower. The US Marines dealt with just this sort of thing in the Barbary Wars. The IS boys want to spread beyond Iraq and Syria. They would take over all the sunni real estate and then turn on Iran in attempt to conclude the 1400 year Muslim civil war between sunnis and shiites. But that's not the end of it for them. They want the caliphate to spread over Europe and the world. Now that's a very tall order but you have to take them at THEIR word. If you wanted to emulate Uncle during WWII and not enter the war, you would also emulate the other side of the ledger - deport or intern all hostile aliens and stop entry to newcomers.  You can't let jihad run its course because it's not your business AND let them in because that's your business. That's crazy. If you want to keep out then also keep them out. Let them all go, close the gates and bomb them as a matter of punishment and let the other Arabs and Muslims on the ground fight. This will not stop until they have had enough of killing each other. You are not dealing with wholly rational players.

And Uncle's response to those Islamicist attacks was to - wait for it - invade a secular regime and open it up to Al Qaida and the IS boys.

The IS boys do seem rather fixated on Sunni real estate, and I must admit, if I was in Iran I wouldn't want them living next door, but that's just me.

These two points demonstrate the importance of Uncle staying out. Not only did he spectacularly fail in every judgement call he made last time, it's an issue of Sunni real estate best managed by Sunnis.

If Uncle and his coalition go in this time, they'll be the lead agency in the 1400 year civil war you mention. They will also be opening their own real estate up to the IS boys' caliphate.

I'm sure there's a quote in the Quran about it. You know, if the enemy doesn't submit, sieze their real estate.

It's hardly a possibility, but we know how the IS boys see real estate. It's not so much land as lots of live human bodies who need to have their blood spilled for the glory of Gud.

Quote:

karnal wrote: [quote]why is the law able to contain the threat of neo-Nazi terrorism, but not Muslim terrorism? I’m genuinely curious here. If there’s a real reason I’d like to know. I mean, why are immigrants with names like van Tongeren and Saleam much less dangerous than ones called Muhammed and Mustapha? And why do any threats posed by the Muhammeds and Mustaphas require extra-legal means to manage? Again, genuinely curious. Anyone?

moses wrote:
Quote:

Answer: 1.5 billion muslims and their innumerable apologists all bound by the terrorism, torture and mass murder, which is instructed, condoned and glorified, by the conglomeration of evil:  islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an and hadi'th. Other terrorist nutjobs pale into insignificance, when compared with your islamic mates.     I challenge muslims and their apologists to declare as evil, wrong and totally irrelevant in the 21st century, the teachings and commands of  islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an and hadi'th, which are the root cause of islamic terrorism.

Karnal wrote:
Quote:

Oh, I know. Seven million Jews killed in an industrial production process less than 60 years ago. The root cause of that one was: 1. Adolf Hitler. 2. Racial ideology. 3. Something sinister in the geist of the German people. 4. The dialectics of modernity and the telos of Western rationality. 5. Islam. Take your time, Moses. It used to be thought that the very existence of humankind depended on the answer to that question. Before we had Islam, I mean.

[/quote]

The parallels between nazi atrocities, islamic atrocities, hitler and muhammad are evident.

hitler was a leader who embedded his own iniquitous personal agenda into all aspects of nazi life.

Men who followed and believed in hitler had no problems at all, in performing the barbaric inhumanities carried out by nazis 60 years ago.

Precisely the same rationale applies to  the aggregation of pure evil e.g. muhammad / allah / islam / quran /muslims and hadi'th.

muhammad is proven by history to be a thief, liar, pedophile, rapist, torturer, terrorist and mass murderer.

muhammad injected all of the above barbarities into the commands of allah, his personal teachings, the tenets of islam, these atrocities are now recorded in the qur'an and hadi'th.

All muslims who believe and follow the conglomeration of evil e.g.: muhammad / allah / islam / quran / hadi'th, who will not condemn the islamic commands, teachings and verses which urge, condone and glorify muslims committing atrocities, are a threat to all 21st century civilised societies.

moses wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 3:18pm:

Quote: karnal wrote: [quote]why is the law able to contain the threat of neo-Nazi terrorism, but not Muslim terrorism? I’m genuinely curious here. If there’s a real reason I’d like to know. I mean, why are immigrants with names like van Tongeren and Saleam much less dangerous than ones called Muhammed and Mustapha? And why do any threats posed by the Muhammeds and Mustaphas require extra-legal means to manage? Again, genuinely curious. Anyone? moses wrote:[quote]Answer: 1.5 billion muslims and their innumerable apologists all bound by the terrorism, torture and mass murder, which is instructed, condoned and glorified, by the conglomeration of evil:  islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an and hadi'th. Other terrorist nutjobs pale into insignificance, when compared with your islamic mates.     I challenge muslims and their apologists to declare as evil, wrong and totally irrelevant in the 21st century, the teachings and commands of  islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an and hadi'th, which are the root cause of islamic terrorism.

Karnal wrote:
Quote:

Oh, I know. Seven million Jews killed in an industrial production process less than 60 years ago. The root cause of that one was: 1. Adolf Hitler. 2. Racial ideology. 3. Something sinister in the geist of the German people. 4. The dialectics of modernity and the telos of Western rationality. 5. Islam. Take your time, Moses. It used to be thought that the very existence of humankind depended on the answer to that question. Before we had Islam, I mean.

[/quote]

The parallels between nazi atrocities, islamic atrocities, hitler and muhammad are evident.

hitler was a leader who embedded his own iniquitous personal agenda into all aspects of nazi life.

Men who followed and believed in hitler had no problems at all, in performing the barbaric inhumanities carried out by nazis 60 years ago.

Precisely the same rationale applies to  the aggregation of pure evil e.g. muhammad / allah / islam / quran /muslims and hadi'th.

muhammad is proven by history to be a thief, liar, pedophile, rapist, torturer, terrorist and mass murderer.

muhammad injected all of the above barbarities into the commands of allah, his personal teachings, the tenets of islam, these atrocities are now recorded in the qur'an and hadi'th.

All muslims who believe and follow the conglomeration of evil e.g.: muhammad / allah / islam / quran / hadi'th, who will not condemn the islamic commands, teachings and verses which urge, condone and glorify muslims committing atrocities, are a threat to all 21st century civilised societies. [/quote]

Only 60 years ago, they said the same about Germans. If, by your claim that "the parallels between nazi atrocities, islamic atrocities, hitler and muhammad are evident", why are there all these Germans hanging out in Europe, freely going about their business? Are they not a threat to all 21st century civilised societies?

I'm curious.

You're an apologizing bootlicker for islamic terrorism Karnal

I wrote:
Quote:

Men who followed and believed in hitler had no problems at all, in performing the barbaric inhumanities carried out by nazis 60 years ago.

Are you falsely implying that **all these Germans hanging out in Europe, freely going about their business?** follow and believe in hitler as the correct way for them?

I say you're lying about Germans, to protect muslim terrorists.

I will state again:

All muslims who believe and follow the conglomeration of evil e.g.: muhammad / allah / islam / quran / hadi'th, who will not condemn the islamic commands, teachings and verses which urge, condone and glorify muslims committing atrocities, are a threat to all 21st century civilised societies

I stand by these words.

What about all the Christians who believe and follow the conglomeration of evil e.g.: Christ / God / Holy Spirit / Christianity / Bible / Pope / Patriarch / Pastor / Priest , who will not condemn the Christian commands, teachings and verses which urge, condone and glorify Christians committing atrocities, are a threat to all 21st century civilised societies?   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

|dev|null wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 4:11pm:

What about all the Christians who believe and follow the conglomeration of evil e.g.: Christ / God / Holy Spirit / Christianity / Bible / Pope / Patriarch / Pastor / Priest , who will not condemn the Christian commands, teachings and verses which urge, condone and glorify Christians committing atrocities, are a threat to all 21st century civilised societies?   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

wow its a long time since I have been involved in a massacre can you tell me when the last Christian one was held... thanks..

cods wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 4:40pm:

|dev|null wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 4:11pm: What about all the Christians who believe and follow the conglomeration of evil e.g.: Christ / God / Holy Spirit / Christianity / Bible / Pope / Patriarch / Pastor / Priest , who will not condemn the Christian commands, teachings and verses which urge, condone and glorify Christians committing atrocities, are a threat to all 21st century civilised societies?   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D wow its a long time since I have been involved in a massacre can you tell me when the last Christian one was held... thanks..

Approximately mid-July 1994 is the last I know of.  I suspect there may have been a later one.    ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D

|dev|null wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 4:52pm:

cods wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 4:40pm: |dev|null wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 4:11pm: What about all the Christians who believe and follow the conglomeration of evil e.g.: Christ / God / Holy Spirit / Christianity / Bible / Pope / Patriarch / Pastor / Priest , who will not condemn the Christian commands, teachings and verses which urge, condone and glorify Christians committing atrocities, are a threat to all 21st century civilised societies?   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D wow its a long time since I have been involved in a massacre can you tell me when the last Christian one was held... thanks.. Approximately mid-July 1994 is the last I know of.  I suspect there may have been later one.    ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D

Oh, so one unspecified event weighs as much as daily murderous attacks across the world.
You are a real numpty, Brain.

moses wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 4:07pm:

You're an apologizing bootlicker for islamic terrorism Karnal I wrote: Quote: Men who followed and believed in hitler had no problems at all, in performing the barbaric inhumanities carried out by nazis 60 years ago. Are you falsely implying that **all these Germans hanging out in Europe, freely going about their business?** follow and believe in hitler as the correct way for them?

No no, I'm just trying to understand your argument. I'm only trying to help, you know.

Are you implying that **all these Muslims hanging out around the world, freely going about their business** follow and believe in ISIS as the correct way for them?

I promise to stand by your words too, Moses.

|dev|null wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 4:11pm:

What about all the Christians who believe and follow the conglomeration of evil e.g.: Christ / God / Holy Spirit / Christianity / Bible / Pope / Patriarch / Pastor / Priest , who will not condemn the Christian commands, teachings and verses which urge, condone and glorify Christians committing atrocities, are a threat to all 21st century civilised societies?   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

Moses?

Karnal wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 2:30pm:

And Uncle's response to those Islamicist attacks was to - wait for it - invade a secular regime and open it up to Al Qaida and the IS boys. The IS boys do seem rather fixated on Sunni real estate, and I must admit, if I was in Iran I wouldn't want them living next door, but that's just me. These two points demonstrate the importance of Uncle staying out. Not only did he spectacularly fail in every judgement call he made last time, it's an issue of Sunni real estate best managed by Sunnis. If Uncle and his coalition go in this time, they'll be the lead agency in the 1400 year civil war you mention. They will also be opening their own real estate up to the IS boys' caliphate. I'm sure there's a quote in the Quran about it. You know, if the enemy doesn't submit, sieze their real estate. It's hardly a possibility, but we know how the IS boys see real estate. It's not so much land as lots of live human bodies who need to have their blood spilled for the glory of Gud.

Of we could be sure that it is a localised sunni/shia internal civil war, we would leave them to themselves, like we left the Iraqis and Iranians to slug it out, regretting only that both of them couldn't lose.

But there are others in harm's way, like the Christians and other non-Muslims in the region. And the bastards are threatening us, too. So it's better to kill them there than to wait for them to come to us. The killing will not stop whether we are involved or not. It has been going on sine Mo died.
But we have an interest in who gets killed and who doesn't.

A spineless apologist for islamic terrorism **Hot Breath** wrote:


Quote:

the Christian commands, teachings and verses which urge, condone and glorify Christians committing atrocities

Give me the commands directed at Christians which **which urge, condone and glorify Christians committing atrocities** so I know what you're talking about.

moses wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 3:18pm:

Men who followed and believed in hitler had no problems at all, in performing the barbaric inhumanities carried out by nazis 60 years ago.

It would have very much depended upon the individual, Moses.  According to Christopher Browning in his book, Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland, liberal use of alcohol and drugs was required to help the men carry out their orders to massacre and kill Jews and others in Poland.   Nervous breakdowns were not uncommon either apparently.   Some came so desensitised they came to relish their duties but they were in the minority apparently.    ::)

Soren wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 5:31pm:

Karnal wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 2:30pm: And Uncle's response to those Islamicist attacks was to - wait for it - invade a secular regime and open it up to Al Qaida and the IS boys. The IS boys do seem rather fixated on Sunni real estate, and I must admit, if I was in Iran I wouldn't want them living next door, but that's just me. These two points demonstrate the importance of Uncle staying out. Not only did he spectacularly fail in every judgement call he made last time, it's an issue of Sunni real estate best managed by Sunnis. If Uncle and his coalition go in this time, they'll be the lead agency in the 1400 year civil war you mention. They will also be opening their own real estate up to the IS boys' caliphate. I'm sure there's a quote in the Quran about it. You know, if the enemy doesn't submit, sieze their real estate. It's hardly a possibility, but we know how the IS boys see real estate. It's not so much land as lots of live human bodies who need to have their blood spilled for the glory of Gud. Of we could be sure that it is a localised sunni/shia internal civil war, we would leave them to themselves, like we left the Iraqis and Iranians to slug it out, regretting only that both of them couldn't lose.

Are you kidding? Uncle backed Saddam in the Iran/Iraq war and couldn’t bear the possibility of seeing two oil producers lose.

Is your understanding of history really that inept?

Do you really actually believe what you write?

I’m.going to stay positive, old boy, and assume you haven’t had your enema yet.

Hurry up.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/sep/20/ifonlybothsidescouldlose

Henry Kissinger.

Quote:

ISIS needs to be dealt with - I’m not sure how. But comparing the threat of radical Islam today with the global security threats we’ve seen only very recently in Western history is ludicrous. Hundreds of millions were killed in the wars of the 20th century - more if we include the clean-ups afterwards. All these wars were between the Western powers and Western offshoots like the USSR.

About a million died in the Iran Iraq war. ISIS is small, but has already resulted in the death of at least 10000 civilians - a number growing rapidly. Given it's appeal to Muslims, it has the potential to expand rapidly and linger for a very long time.


Quote:

These two points demonstrate the importance of Uncle staying out. Not only did he spectacularly fail in every judgement call he made last time, it's an issue of Sunni real estate best managed by Sunnis.

Are you suggesting we should not even help?


Quote:

Only 60 years ago, they said the same about Germans. If, by your claim that "the parallels between nazi atrocities, islamic atrocities, hitler and muhammad are evident", why are there all these Germans hanging out in Europe, freely going about their business? Are they not a threat to all 21st century civilised societies?

The Germans abandoned Nazism. Had they held onto it, they would still be a grave threat to modern civilisation.


Quote:

It would have very much depended upon the individual, Moses.  According to Christopher Browning in his book, Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland, liberal use of alcohol and drugs was required to help the men carry out their orders to massacre and kill Jews and others in Poland.

ISIS bans alcohol and drugs. They use religion instead.

Not even help?

FD, Australia is "helping" by badgering the US to get involved. Any "help" Australia offers will be incredibly limited. Croatia will probably give more help than Australia.

Australia should help by working in a diplomatic capacity to get the Arab states on board. We should help by sending funds to the right people.

If Arab Joe decides to reinstate the aid budget again.

Australia is currently making a lot of noise, but even Julie Bishop is talking stingy on her offer of help. You want to help?

Send the old boy in to mediate - a win-win for all.

You are having hot flushes, bint.

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 9:06pm:

Quote: ISIS needs to be dealt with - I’m not sure how. But comparing the threat of radical Islam today with the global security threats we’ve seen only very recently in Western history is ludicrous. Hundreds of millions were killed in the wars of the 20th century - more if we include the clean-ups afterwards. All these wars were between the Western powers and Western offshoots like the USSR. ...ISIS is small, but has already resulted in the death of at least 10000 civilians - a number growing rapidly...

What a load of bollocks! Where is the proof?

I may as well say that Tony Abbott has killed a million people.

Normally I would also ask FD for the source of the 10k figure - but he'll probably just reply that its either deferring to common sense or stating the bleeding obvious. Either that or pull out some bizarre, non-sensical quip about checking the receipts or something.

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 9:06pm:

Quote: It would have very much depended upon the individual, Moses.  According to Christopher Browning in his book, Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland, liberal use of alcohol and drugs was required to help the men carry out their orders to massacre and kill Jews and others in Poland. ISIS bans alcohol and drugs. They use religion instead.

So?  So have Christians when committing Genocide...   ::)

Oh, and you can guarantee no sly grogging goes on in the Caliphate?   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 12^th, 2014 at 12:37am:

freediver wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 9:06pm: Quote: It would have very much depended upon the individual, Moses.  According to Christopher Browning in his book, Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland, liberal use of alcohol and drugs was required to help the men carry out their orders to massacre and kill Jews and others in Poland. ISIS bans alcohol and drugs. They use religion instead. So?  So have Christians when committing Genocide...   ::)

So in what way does that excuse Muslims?

Soren wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 9:03pm:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/sep/20/ifonlybothsidescouldlose Henry Kissinger.

2006 Soren.  And it wasn't by Kissinger at all, it references him just once.   Seems you didn't read it but why am I not surprised.  Tell us, what do you think of it's criticism of Ratzinger's remarks, "spineless apologetics"?   ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D

|dev|null wrote on Sep 12^th, 2014 at 12:28pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 9:03pm: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/sep/20/ifonlybothsidescouldlose Henry Kissinger. 2006 Soren.  And it wasn't by Kissinger at all, it references him just once.   Seems you didn't read it but why am I not surprised.  Tell us, what do you think of it's criticism of Ratzinger's remarks, "spineless apologetics"?   ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D

The old boy merely Googled this to reference Kissenger’s comment.

I wonder if he realises that he’s posted the natural enemy of the old boy: a Guardian columnist.

Karnal wrote:
Quote:

No no, I'm just trying to understand your argument. I'm only trying to help, you know. Are you implying that **all these Muslims hanging out around the world, freely going about their business** follow and believe in ISIS as the correct way for them? I promise to stand by your words too, Moses.

**all these muslims hanging out around the world, freely going about their business** certainly believe in the conglomeration of evil e.g.: islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an and hid'th as the correct way for them, exactly as isis does.

isis are physically acting out their correctly held and verifiable beliefs.

muslims and their apologists, who refuse to condemn those commands, teachings, verses in the conglomeration of evil, which authorize, condone and glorify, terrorism, torture and mass murder, are giving moral support to isis.

I'm waiting for the islamic terrorism apologetic hot Breath to: Give me the commands directed at Christians which **which urge, condone and glorify Christians committing atrocities** so I know what he's talking about

moses wrote on Sep 12^th, 2014 at 3:27pm:

Karnal wrote: Quote: No no, I'm just trying to understand your argument. I'm only trying to help, you know. Are you implying that **all these Muslims hanging out around the world, freely going about their business** follow and believe in ISIS as the correct way for them? I promise to stand by your words too, Moses. **all these muslims hanging out around the world, freely going about their business** certainly believe in the conglomeration of evil e.g.: islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an and hid'th as the correct way for them, exactly as isis does. isis are physically acting out their correctly held and verifiable beliefs. muslims and their apologists, who refuse to condemn those commands, teachings, verses in the conglomeration of evil, which authorize, condone and glorify, terrorism, torture and mass murder, are giving moral support to isis.

Except that Muslims and their apologists hate ISIL too. A number have volunteered to fight.

You, on the other hand, say that Muslims are prepared to wage a ground war against ISIS, but similtaneously support them.

Who’s going to fall for that?

Brian Ross wrote:
Quote:

It would have very much depended upon the individual, Moses.  According to Christopher Browning in his book, Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland, liberal use of alcohol and drugs was required to help the men carry out their orders to massacre and kill Jews and others in Poland.   Nervous breakdowns were not uncommon either apparently.   Some came so desensitised they came to relish their duties but they were in the minority apparently.

So what? The facts are that atrocities became part of the nazi agenda, they were carried out.

Terrorism, torture and mass murder are part of the past and present schedule of: islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an and hadith.

Islamic atrocities were carried out in the past, they are being carried out now today 2014.

Anyone who refuses to condemn these commands, teachings and verses which condone and glorify terrorism, torture and mass murder, are giving moral support to isis

Karnal wrote:
Quote:

Except that Muslims and their apologists hate ISIL too. A number have volunteered to fight. You, on the other hand, say that Muslims are prepared to wage a ground war against ISIS, but similtaneously support them. Who’s going to fall for that?

Factional hate and murder are part and parcel of islam.

All islamic factions believe in the commands, teachings and verses which condone and glorify terrorism, torture and mass murder, by muslims. They simply apply the relevant commands and teachings etc. to their own personal viewpoint.

There is not one muslim who will declare these commands and teachings as being wrong, evil and totally irrelevant in the 21st century.

Whether they like it or lump it, muslims and their apologists are giving moral support to islamic terrorists, torturers and mass murderers (of all factions), by their failure to denigrate the religious root cause of said atrocities.

moses wrote on Sep 12^th, 2014 at 4:12pm:

There is not one muslim who will declare these commands and teachings as being wrong, evil and totally irrelevant in the 21st century.

Don't be stupid.

Said Keyser Trad:

“They have nothing to do with Islam,” he said. “No matter what they proclaim.”

“There is nothing holy about that war… Muslim leaders from all around the world have condemned that group as being a brutal bunch of thugs and murderers.”

“We should not give them labels they enjoy, we should just label them as brutal thugs and murderers – and this is what they are.”

“This group is not representative of Islam, they have nothing to do with Islam, they are just after their own political agenda,” Trad continued. “They are now using children which is very shocking and appalling… and deserves every condemnation.”

http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/does-isis-represent-islam/

We know your agenda is unflappable moses, but at the very least try not to perpetuate such blatant lies.

moses wrote on Sep 12^th, 2014 at 4:12pm:

Karnal wrote: Quote: Except that Muslims and their apologists hate ISIL too. A number have volunteered to fight. You, on the other hand, say that Muslims are prepared to wage a ground war against ISIS, but similtaneously support them. Who’s going to fall for that? Factional hate and murder are part and parcel of islam. All islamic factions believe in the commands, teachings and verses which condone and glorify terrorism, torture and mass murder, by muslims. .

No they don’t. But back to our WWII analogy, all German people believe they have German blood.

Given they’re still at large, don’t you think they should be held responsible for WWII?

Karnal wrote on Sep 12^th, 2014 at 4:34pm:

No they don’t.

Oh but they do K - the trick is to simply discard any of the factions that don't believe in terrorism as "non-islamic".

Sufi mystics? don't exist

Bediüzzaman movement? nuffin to do with islam

followers of the influential spiritual leader Wahiduddin Khan? nuffin to do with nuffin


See? Simple.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 11:09pm:

Normally I would also ask FD for the source of the 10k figure - but he'll probably just reply that its either deferring to common sense or stating the bleeding obvious. Either that or pull out some bizarre, non-sensical quip about checking the receipts or something.

See the wikipedia page. It doesn't spell it out, but for the first few years, before they were even on the radar, it was at least 1000 per year.


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Except that Muslims and their apologists hate ISIL too.

Obviously not all of them.


Quote:

No they don’t. But back to our WWII analogy, all German people believe they have German blood. Given they’re still at large, don’t you think they should be held responsible for WWII?

It was Nazism that was the problem Karnal. Once they dropped the oppressive ideology, the people were tolerable.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 12^th, 2014 at 4:28pm:

moses wrote on Sep 12th, 2014 at 4:12pm: There is not one muslim who will declare these commands and teachings as being wrong, evil and totally irrelevant in the 21st century. Don't be stupid. Said Keyser Trad: “They have nothing to do with Islam,” he said. “No matter what they proclaim.” “There is nothing holy about that war… Muslim leaders from all around the world have condemned that group as being a brutal bunch of thugs and murderers.” “We should not give them labels they enjoy, we should just label them as brutal thugs and murderers – and this is what they are.” “This group is not representative of Islam, they have nothing to do with Islam, they are just after their own political agenda,” Trad continued. “They are now using children which is very shocking and appalling… and deserves every condemnation.” http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/does-isis-represent-islam/ We know your agenda is unflappable moses, but at the very least try not to perpetuate such blatant lies.

that is all very well gandalf... but the ISIS run under the flag of ISLAMIC STATE.... IS stands for that...it is hard for anyone to disassociate Islam from this ISLAMIC STATE  war...

no offence meant by this.. but I have seen Mulsims burning the AMerican and Australian flags..

but so far not an ISIS one..

words are cheap..

at the end of the day....we can all blah blah whilst turning a blind eye...

maybe I am expecting too much...but it would be good all round if those good Muslims living a good life in this country....showed it..

cods wrote on Sep 12^th, 2014 at 6:09pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 12th, 2014 at 4:28pm: moses wrote on Sep 12th, 2014 at 4:12pm: There is not one muslim who will declare these commands and teachings as being wrong, evil and totally irrelevant in the 21st century. Don't be stupid. Said Keyser Trad: “They have nothing to do with Islam,” he said. “No matter what they proclaim.” “There is nothing holy about that war… Muslim leaders from all around the world have condemned that group as being a brutal bunch of thugs and murderers.” “We should not give them labels they enjoy, we should just label them as brutal thugs and murderers – and this is what they are.” “This group is not representative of Islam, they have nothing to do with Islam, they are just after their own political agenda,” Trad continued. “They are now using children which is very shocking and appalling… and deserves every condemnation.” http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/does-isis-represent-islam/ We know your agenda is unflappable moses, but at the very least try not to perpetuate such blatant lies. that is all very well gandalf... but the ISIS run under the flag of ISLAMIC STATE.... IS stands for that...it is hard for anyone to disassociate Islam from this ISLAMIC STATE  war... no offence meant by this.. but I have seen Mulsims burning the AMerican and Australian flags.. but so far not an ISIS one.. words are cheap.. at the end of the day....we can all blah blah whilst turning a blind eye... maybe I am expecting too much...but it would be good all round if those good Muslims living a good life in this country....showed it..

I agree, dear. Working and shopping and going about their lives is clearly not enough.

Perhaps they should be more like the cheeseaters and New Zealanders and Pommy blow-ins and spend their days on this site complaining about everybody else.

No offense, dear.

freediver wrote on Sep 12^th, 2014 at 5:51pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 11:09pm: Normally I would also ask FD for the source of the 10k figure - but he'll probably just reply that its either deferring to common sense or stating the bleeding obvious. Either that or pull out some bizarre, non-sensical quip about checking the receipts or something. See the wikipedia page. It doesn't spell it out, but for the first few years, before they were even on the radar, it was at least 1000 per year. Quote: Except that Muslims and their apologists hate ISIL too. Obviously not all of them. [quote]No they don’t. But back to our WWII analogy, all German people believe they have German blood. Given they’re still at large, don’t you think they should be held responsible for WWII?

It was Nazism that was the problem Karnal. Once they dropped the oppressive ideology, the people were tolerable.[/quote]

Oh, I agree. To you and I, it makes perfect sense. Moses isn’t quite there yet though.

I think he’s a disciple of the old boy’s correlation-not-causation school of eugenics.

I wonder if he studied at the prestigious University of Balogney.

Quote:

Said Keyser Trad: “They [ISIS] have nothing to do with Islam,” he said. “No matter what they proclaim.” “There is nothing holy about that war… Muslim leaders from all around the world have condemned that group as being a brutal bunch of thugs and murderers.” “We should not give them labels they enjoy, we should just label them as brutal thugs and murderers – and this is what they are.” “This group is not representative of Islam, they have nothing to do with Islam, they are just after their own political agenda,” Trad continued. “They are now using children which is very shocking and appalling… and deserves every condemnation.” http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/does-isis-represent-islam/

What a crock, from Trad, a moslem dissembler.

Google;
Taqiyya                                    .....as K would say.





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Jordanian politician: Islamic State’s “doctrine stems from the Qur’an and Sunnah”… “There is no such thing as ‘ISIS ideology’ — it’s Islam” Sep 10, 2014 Wherever Muhammad Bayoudh Al-Tamimi is located, he should expect a knock on his door, and Barack Obama, David Cameron, Philip Hammond, Yvette Cooper, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Rev. Professor David Thomas, and a host of other non-Muslims to walk in and explain to him that he is misunderstanding Islam, and that the Islamic State has nothing whatsoever to do with the genuine article. .....There needs to be a public discussion about this dichotomy and how it came about, and whose position is better represented among Muslim populations worldwide, as well as in light of Islamic tradition, theology and law. But that would require some honesty and balance in the public square, which doesn’t appear to be on the horizon.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/jordanian-politician-islamic-states-doctrine-stems-from-the-quran-and-sunnah-there-is-no-such-thing-as-isis-ideology-its-islam

Soren wrote on Sep 12^th, 2014 at 1:19am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 12th, 2014 at 12:37am: freediver wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 9:06pm: Quote: It would have very much depended upon the individual, Moses.  According to Christopher Browning in his book, Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland, liberal use of alcohol and drugs was required to help the men carry out their orders to massacre and kill Jews and others in Poland. ISIS bans alcohol and drugs. They use religion instead. So?  So have Christians when committing Genocide...   ::) So in what way does that excuse Muslims?

I didn't claim it did, Soren.  However, it goes some way in making you aware that Muslims are not unique in allowing themselves to be manipulated through their religious beliefs, which some seem to think.   ::)

Who is doing this manipulating Brian?

freediver wrote on Sep 12^th, 2014 at 7:29pm:

Who is doing this manipulating Brian?

Those that seek to gain power over their fellow Muslims, perhaps?   ::)

I don't think it's necessarily any grand conspiracy, if that is what you're fishing for, FD.  I think it's just normal, plain old, lust for power of the sort that history is full of.   Be it George W. Bush and Dick Cheney or Christopher Pyne, there are numerous examples out there, Muslim and non-Muslim, FD.

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Be it George W. Bush and Dick Cheney or Christopher Pyne, there are numerous examples out there, Muslim and non-Muslim, FD.

Is Muhammed an example?

moses wrote on Sep 12^th, 2014 at 3:53pm:

Brian Ross wrote: Quote: It would have very much depended upon the individual, Moses.  According to Christopher Browning in his book, Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland, liberal use of alcohol and drugs was required to help the men carry out their orders to massacre and kill Jews and others in Poland.   Nervous breakdowns were not uncommon either apparently.   Some came so desensitised they came to relish their duties but they were in the minority apparently. So what? The facts are that atrocities became part of the nazi agenda, they were carried out.

No denying that, Moses.  However, you miss the point - ordinary men took considerable effort to insulate themselves from doing them.  They had to self-medicate to make it bearable.


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Terrorism, torture and mass murder are part of the past and present schedule of: islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an and hadith. Islamic atrocities were carried out in the past, they are being carried out now today 2014.

Which religious group recently was using water-boarding to torture members of the other religious group?  Muslims or Christians?   Where is the Christian condemnation of that, I ask?  Appears to me there are plenty of naughty Christians out there, doing naughty things.    ::)


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Anyone who refuses to condemn these commands, teachings and verses which condone and glorify terrorism, torture and mass murder, are giving moral support to isis

Deuteronomy 17:2-5  you going to condemn that verse in The Bible, Moses?   ::)

freediver wrote on Sep 12^th, 2014 at 8:31pm:

Quote: Be it George W. Bush and Dick Cheney or Christopher Pyne, there are numerous examples out there, Muslim and non-Muslim, FD. Is Muhammed an example?

Some may consider him thus.  Tell me, is John Smith an example?  Would the Popes be examples, FD?    As I said, history is replete with them.   ::)

F
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 12^th, 2014 at 7:44pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 12th, 2014 at 7:29pm: Who is doing this manipulating Brian? Those that seek to gain power over their fellow Muslims, perhaps?   ::) I don't think it's necessarily any grand conspiracy, if that is what you're fishing for, FD.  I think it's just normal, plain old, lust for power of the sort that history is full of.   Be it George W. Bush and Dick Cheney or Christopher Pyne, there are numerous examples out there, Muslim and non-Muslim, FD.

Everyone wants power, Brain. Things get done only by applying power.
The question is - what do people want to achieve?
Caliphate, sharia, submission - or freedom, dignity, knowledge, art, prosperity, happiness.

Gandalf

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[quote]moses wrote:There is not one muslim who will declare these commands and teachings as being wrong, evil and totally irrelevant in the 21st century.

Quote:

gandalf wrote: Don't be stupid. Said Keyser Trad: “They have nothing to do with Islam,” he said. “No matter what they proclaim.” “There is nothing holy about that war… Muslim leaders from all around the world have condemned that group as being a brutal bunch of thugs and murderers.” “We should not give them labels they enjoy, we should just label them as brutal thugs and murderers – and this is what they are.” “This group is not representative of Islam, they have nothing to do with Islam, they are just after their own political agenda,” Trad continued. “They are now using children which is very shocking and appalling… and deserves every condemnation.” http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/does-isis-represent-islam/ We know your agenda is unflappable moses, but at the very least try not to perpetuate such blatant lies.

[/quote]

Where did he declare as being wrong, evil and totally irrelevant in the 21st century, the commands from allah, the teachings of muhammad, the verses in the qur'an and hadi'th, which unequivocally dictate, condone and glorify terrorism, torture and mass murder?

He didn't.

Until muslims and their apologists unambiguously condemn the commands, teachings and verses which doctrinally urge, excuse and exalt the very atrocities isis are committing, you are all supporters of islamic inhumane heinousness, no matter which  muslim faction is carrying out the atrocities.

Karnal wrote:

Quote:

No they don’t. & But back to our WWII analogy, all German people believe they have German blood. Given they’re still at large, don’t you think they should be held responsible for WWII?

Yes muslims do believe every command from allah, every teaching from muhammad, every verse in the qur'an and hadi'th, if they didn't they would have no trouble denouncing them as: being wrong, evil and completely irrelevant in the 21st century.

On the subject of the Germans do they all still have the exact same convictions as the WW2 Germans?

I believe they have a totally different point of view today 2014.

muslims don't, their beliefs are still in the 7th century era of muhammad and all the associated teachings of islamic evil.

Brian Ross wrote:
Quote:

No denying that, Moses.  However, you miss the point - ordinary men took considerable effort to insulate themselves from doing them.  They had to self-medicate to make it bearable.

What has that got to do with the fact that atrocities are urged,   exempted and glorified, by the evil totality of allah, muhammad, qur'an and hadi'th?


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Which religious group recently was using water-boarding to torture members of the other religious group?  Muslims or Christians?   Where is the Christian condemnation of that, I ask?  Appears to me there are plenty of naughty Christians out there, doing naughty things

Prove that those responsible were Christian. I believe that the U.S.A. is secular.

I have no idea what all their beliefs are, do you?


Quote:

Deuteronomy 17:2-5  you going to condemn that verse in The Bible, Moses?

Done, 2014 years ago by the Saviour and original founders of Christianity: Luke 16:16  The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached , and every man presseth into it.

Rom 3:20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Gal 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:11  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:8

moses wrote on Sep 13^th, 2014 at 4:07pm:

Brian Ross wrote: Quote: No denying that, Moses.  However, you miss the point - ordinary men took considerable effort to insulate themselves from doing them.  They had to self-medicate to make it bearable. What has that got to do with the fact that atrocities are urged,   exempted and glorified, by the evil totality of allah, muhammad, qur'an and hadi'th?

It refutes the original claim that you made that;

moses wrote on Sep 11^th, 2014 at 3:18pm:

Men who followed and believed in hitler had no problems at all, in performing the barbaric inhumanities carried out by nazis 60 years ago.

Which is what I was correcting, Moses.  I showed you a reference that proves that "ordinary men" had real problems in, " performing the barbaric inhumanities carried out by nazis[sic] 60 years ago."


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[quote]Which religious group recently was using water-boarding to torture members of the other religious group?  Muslims or Christians?   Where is the Christian condemnation of that, I ask?  Appears to me there are plenty of naughty Christians out there, doing naughty things

Prove that those responsible were Christian. I believe that the U.S.A. is secular.
[/quote]

The nation may claim to that, Moses but most Americans ascribe to one religion or another and the majority of those are Christian.   ::)


Quote:

I have no idea what all their beliefs are, do you?

I'm willing to place a bet on it, are you?


Quote:

[quote]Deuteronomy 17:2-5  you going to condemn that verse in The Bible, Moses?

Done, 2014 years ago by the Saviour and original founders of Christianity: Luke 16:16  The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached , and every man presseth into it.

Rom 3:20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Gal 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:11  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[/quote]

And that faith instructs people to kill disbelievers, Moses.  Those verses do not negate Deuteronomy 17:2-5, they reinforce it.   ::)

Brian Ross wrote:
Quote:

Which is what I was correcting, Moses.  I showed you a reference that proves that "ordinary men" had real problems in, " performing the barbaric inhumanities carried out by nazis[sic] 60 years  ago."

Yet they did perform them right?

muslims absolutely believe and accept everything the conglomeration of evil e.g. islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an and hadi'th push down their throat, regarding the commands, exonerations and glorification of terrorism, torture and mass murder dictated by the above assemblage of pure evil.

Not one muslim or their apologists, will stand up and condemn as wrong, evil and totally irrelevant in the 21st century, the commands, teachings and verses which urge and glorify atrocities.

Why won't they?


Quote:

The nation may claim to that, Moses but most Americans ascribe to one religion or another and the majority of those are Christian.

Are they?

You still haven't proved those responsible are in deed Christian, or that there is any Christian doctrine covering these things. (Prove what you say)


Quote:

And that faith instructs people to kill disbelievers, Moses.  Those verses do not negate Deuteronomy 17:2-5, they reinforce it.

You'll need to explain how the verses in the N.T. which annul Mosaic Law would reinforce Deuteronomy 17:2-5

moses wrote on Sep 13^th, 2014 at 5:45pm:

Brian Ross wrote: Quote: Which is what I was correcting, Moses.  I showed you a reference that proves that "ordinary men" had real problems in, " performing the barbaric inhumanities carried out by nazis[sic] 60 years  ago." Yet they did perform them right?

Yes but as I pointed out, not without consequence and not necessarily because they wanted to, Moses.


Quote:

muslims absolutely believe and accept everything the conglomeration of evil e.g. islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an and hadi'th push down their throat, regarding the commands, exonerations and glorification of terrorism, torture and mass murder dictated by the above assemblage of pure evil.

Why then are the Salafists having so much trouble recruiting the majority of Muslims to their cause and have to resort to the use of Terror to force them to support them, Moses?

This is where the internal logic of what you claim Muslims believe breaks down because it is demonstrably obvious not all Muslims share the the beliefs you ascribe to them.


Quote:

Not one muslim or their apologists, will stand up and condemn as wrong, evil and totally irrelevant in the 21st century, the commands, teachings and verses which urge and glorify atrocities.

Really?  Why is it then possible to find such condemnations after a five second Google search?

You seem to be blind to what is actually being said by Muslims about Islam and the beliefs of the Islamists.   Is it because it does not suit your bigoted viewpoint towards Muslims?   ::)


Quote:

Why won't they?

But they do. And they do.  And they do.  Perhaps you're just not looking or refusing to read such condemnations, Moses because it doesn't suit your bigoted position? ::)


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[quote]The nation may claim to that, Moses but most Americans ascribe to one religion or another and the majority of those are Christian.

Are they?
[/quote]

Yes.


Quote:

You still haven't proved those responsible are in deed Christian, or that there is any Christian doctrine covering these things. (Prove what you say)

I am asking why isn't there world-wide Christian condemnation of these Christians carrying out this torture, Moses?  Why do not the Christians taking part in the torture, stop it as it is (supposedly) against Christian belief?

Perhaps the reality is, there are levels of belief?  Even for Muslims as well as Christians?


Quote:

[quote]And that faith instructs people to kill disbelievers, Moses.  Those verses do not negate Deuteronomy 17:2-5, they reinforce it.

You'll need to explain how the verses in the N.T. which annul Mosaic Law would reinforce Deuteronomy 17:2-5 [/quote]

They do not explicitly state that they do not believe disbelievers should not be killed as God has instructed, Moses.

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 13^th, 2014 at 12:28am:

freediver wrote on Sep 12th, 2014 at 8:31pm: Quote: Be it George W. Bush and Dick Cheney or Christopher Pyne, there are numerous examples out there, Muslim and non-Muslim, FD. Is Muhammed an example? Some may consider him thus.

Do you?

Do you have both the right and the ability to answer the question?

Soren wrote on Sep 13^th, 2014 at 4:18pm:

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. Romans 13:8

So you keep reminding us, old chap. You have this quote in a framed embroidery over your bed, no? You made it in Craft.

We love you too, dear. We must obey the law, no?

I haven't read all of this thread but, wow, you people sure want your words to impress. :)

I don't know WHY anyone would defend islam when it exhorts it's followers to murder, maim, rape and LIE to continue it's existence. For the apologists, remember, when your comrades have finished with all the Christians and other "miscreants" overseas, your turn will come. Do you think that these pillars of virtue, (muslims) will see you as anything but quislings? no they won't, your heads will also be used as footballs by the boys.

One other thing, you people seem to get off track quite easy. You bring up Eureka flags, nazis and anything else to show that people other than muslims are as barbaric. You might have a point but, mostly the barbarism ended a LONG time ago and, I haven't seen too many NON muslim people wanting to kill someone for writing a book, or making a cartoon? But I have seen what muslims do to a girl who wants to be educated or a girl who is raped or, etc, etc, etc.

Please don't let me stop you from you enjoyable barb slinging.  8-)

Brian likes to own people by pointing out that the Nazis were just as bad as the Muslims.

Gryphon49 wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 12:05am:

I haven't read all of this thread but, wow, you people sure want your words to impress. :) I don't know WHY anyone would defend islam when it exhorts it's followers to murder, maim, rape and LIE to continue it's existence.

Perhaps you'd care to illustrate where anybody has? 

Did you come here for a debate or merely to erect a strawman argument?   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

freediver wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 8:16am:

Brian likes to own people by pointing out that the Nazis were just as bad as the Muslims.

Whereas you have it the other way around.

Cunning, no?

Brian Ross


Quote:

Yes but as I pointed out, not without consequence and not necessarily because they wanted to, Moses.

The facts are the nazi's did commit atrocities as part of the nazi agenda.

Another fact is that after the war the Germans showed more guts and intelligence than present day muslims and their apologists, by declaring that their past nazi ideology was indeed wrong, evil, should never have happened and should never happen again.

Something spineless apologists and muslims refuse to do regarding islamic doctrine which is the cause of muslim terrorism, torture and mass murder.



Quote:

Why then are the Salafists having so much trouble recruiting the majority of Muslims to their cause and have to resort to the use of Terror to force them to support them, Moses? This is where the internal logic of what you claim Muslims believe breaks down because it is demonstrably obvious not all Muslims share the the beliefs you ascribe to them.

Salafists using terror, why?

Because islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an and hadi'th, all urge, exonerate and glorify terrorism.

They are only doing what's right according to the above islamic aggregation of evil.


Quote:

moses wrote: Not one muslim or their apologists, will stand up and condemn as wrong, evil and totally irrelevant in the 21st century, the commands, teachings and verses which urge and glorify atrocities.

Quote:

Brian Ross wrote: Really?  Why is it then possible to find such condemnations after a five second Google search? You seem to be blind to what is actually being said by Muslims about Islam and the beliefs of the Islamists.   Is it because it does not suit your bigoted viewpoint towards Muslims? & But they do. And they do.  And they do.  Perhaps you're just not looking or refusing to read such condemnations, Moses because it doesn't suit your bigoted position?

condemn as wrong, evil and totally irrelevant in the 21st century, the commands, teachings and verses which urge and glorify atrocities.

Merely saying they are against terrorism means nothing, absolutely zilch.

What's important is, they refuse to condemn the commands, teachings and verses of islam which glorify and dictate islamic atrocities.

Why are apologists and muslims so afraid of this simple act?


Quote:

I am asking why isn't there world-wide Christian condemnation of these Christians carrying out this torture, Moses?  Why do not the Christians taking part in the torture, stop it as it is (supposedly) against Christian belief? Perhaps the reality is, there are levels of belief?  Even for Muslims as well as Christians?

Prove they are indeed Christians, or are you lying to push your own agenda?


Quote:

They do not explicitly state that they do not believe disbelievers should not be killed as God has instructed, Moses.

They explicitly stated 2014 years ago, that the law was finished:

From the dictionary:

Finished = ceased, completed, terminated, ended

moses wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 3:39pm:

Brian Ross Quote: Yes but as I pointed out, not without consequence and not necessarily because they wanted to, Moses. The facts are the nazi's did commit atrocities as part of the nazi agenda. Another fact is that after the war the Germans showed more guts and intelligence than present day muslims and their apologists, by declaring that their past nazi ideology was indeed wrong, evil, should never have happened and should never happen again. Something spineless apologists and muslims refuse to do regarding islamic doctrine which is the cause of muslim terrorism, torture and mass murder.

Which Islamic doctrine, Moses?

You've erected this strawman view of Islam, which has uniform interpretations of everything - your interpretation.  Reality is somewhat different.   However, you don't argue against reality, do you?   ::)


Quote:

[quote]Why then are the Salafists having so much trouble recruiting the majority of Muslims to their cause and have to resort to the use of Terror to force them to support them, Moses? This is where the internal logic of what you claim Muslims believe breaks down because it is demonstrably obvious not all Muslims share the the beliefs you ascribe to them.

Salafists using terror, why?

Because islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an and hadi'th, all urge, exonerate and glorify terrorism.

They are only doing what's right according to the above islamic aggregation of evil.
[/quote]

But why do they need to?  Surely all Muslims, if they believe in that interpretation of Islam would flock to their cause?  There would be no need to utilise terror to force them to support the Salafist cause, now would there?

Again, the internal logic of your argument is shown to be contradictory.  On one hand, you claim all Muslims are 100% devout and follow the interpretation of Islam that you claim is the only true one, to the letter, all the time, yet, at the same time we have the Salafists having to resort to terror to force the Muslims to support their cause.

Rather contradictory, now isn't it?  Gee, perhaps the interpretation that the Salafists and you ascribe to, being the good little Madrassah graduate that you are, isn't the same as the one that the majority of Muslims ascribe to?  Chew on that for a little while, Moses.   ;D ;D


Quote:

[quote]moses wrote: Not one muslim or their apologists, will stand up and condemn as wrong, evil and totally irrelevant in the 21st century, the commands, teachings and verses which urge and glorify atrocities.

Quote:

Brian Ross wrote: Really?  Why is it then possible to find such condemnations after a five second Google search? You seem to be blind to what is actually being said by Muslims about Islam and the beliefs of the Islamists.   Is it because it does not suit your bigoted viewpoint towards Muslims? & But they do. And they do.  And they do.  Perhaps you're just not looking or refusing to read such condemnations, Moses because it doesn't suit your bigoted position?

condemn as wrong, evil and totally irrelevant in the 21st century, the commands, teachings and verses which urge and glorify atrocities.

Merely saying they are against terrorism means nothing, absolutely zilch.

What's important is, they refuse to condemn the commands, teachings and verses of islam which glorify and dictate islamic atrocities.

Why are apologists and muslims so afraid of this simple act?


Quote:

I am asking why isn't there world-wide Christian condemnation of these Christians carrying out this torture, Moses?  Why do not the Christians taking part in the torture, stop it as it is (supposedly) against Christian belief? Perhaps the reality is, there are levels of belief?  Even for Muslims as well as Christians?

Prove they are indeed Christians, or are you lying to push your own agenda?
[/quote]

Lying?  No.  Merely offering, as I always do, an alternative interpretation, Moses.   Is there no room for alternatives in your philosophy, Horatio?   ::)


Quote:

[quote] They do not explicitly state that they do not believe disbelievers should not be killed as God has instructed, Moses.

They explicitly stated 2014 years ago, that the law was finished:

From the dictionary:

Finished = ceased, completed, terminated, ended [/quote]

Yet those verses are still in The Bible, they are still cited by Christian fundamentalists, Moses.   Obviously you're lying, if I use your logic on such matters.    ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 12^th, 2014 at 7:28pm:

I didn't claim it did, Soren.  However, it goes some way in making you aware that Muslims are not unique in allowing themselves to be manipulated through their religious beliefs, which some seem to think.   ::)

Tell us, Brain - what ARE Muslims responsible for?

Soren wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 8:44pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 12th, 2014 at 7:28pm: I didn't claim it did, Soren.  However, it goes some way in making you aware that Muslims are not unique in allowing themselves to be manipulated through their religious beliefs, which some seem to think.   ::) Tell us, Brain - what ARE Muslims responsible for?

Their own actions?  Their own beliefs?  Why should Muslims in Australia be held responsible for the actions of Muslims in Syria or Iraq, Soren?

Do you hold Buddhists in Australia responsible for the actions of Buddhists in say, Myanmar or Sri Lanka?

What about Christians for actions of Christians in Africa or Ukraine or the Balkans?

Jews for the actions of Jews in Palestine?

I thought not.   ::)

Brian Ross wrote:
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Which Islamic doctrine, Moses? You've erected this strawman view of Islam, which has uniform interpretations of everything - your interpretation.  Reality is somewhat different.   However, you don't argue against reality, do you?

islamic doctrine of jihad against unbelievers. islamic doctrine of the house of war (Dar Al-Harb).

These two will do for starters.


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But why do they need to?  Surely all Muslims, if they believe in that interpretation of Islam would flock to their cause?  There would be no need to utilise terror to force them to support the Salafist cause, now would there? Again, the internal logic of your argument is shown to be contradictory.  On one hand, you claim all Muslims are 100% devout and follow the interpretation of Islam that you claim is the only true one, to the letter, all the time, yet, at the same time we have the Salafists having to resort to terror to force the Muslims to support their cause. Rather contradictory, now isn't it?  Gee, perhaps the interpretation that the Salafists and you ascribe to, being the good little Madrassah graduate that you are, isn't the same as the one that the majority of Muslims ascribe to?  Chew on that for a little while, Moses.

Participation takes many forms, the highest grade of muslim (according to the qur'an) is the actual killer. Other muslims and their apologists (like you for example) give the moral support to these actual killers. muslims and their apologists slither around the place, always blaming someone / something else for islamic atrocities, instead of blaming the islamic doctrine of death.


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[quote]Brian Ross wrote: I am asking why isn't there world-wide Christian condemnation of these Christians carrying out this torture, Moses?  Why do not the Christians taking part in the torture, stop it as it is (supposedly) against Christian belief? Perhaps the reality is, there are levels of belief?  Even for Muslims as well as Christians?

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moses wrote: Prove they are indeed Christians, or are you lying to push your own agenda?

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Brian Ross wrote: Lying?  No.  Merely offering, as I always do, an alternative interpretation, Moses.   Is there no room for alternatives in your philosophy, Horatio?

[/quote]

You deliberately lied in true spineless apologist form. You categorically stated Christians were carrying out torture, you are unable to backup this lie.

I unequivocally state Brian Ross is a proven liar on this debate site


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Yet those verses are still in The Bible, they are still cited by Christian fundamentalists, Moses.   Obviously you're lying, if I use your logic on such matters.

Except my logic can prove that muslims who follow the islamic doctrine of jihad, are true muslims (according to qur'an, hadi'th, allah and muhammad).

You prove that fundamentalists are following Christian doctrine.

You prove that O.T.Mosaic doctrine revoked in the N.T. is not annulled for Christians.

Failure to prove your accusations reinforces: I unequivocally state Brian Ross is a proven liar on this debate site