Suspected bomber's brother nabbed in raids

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/afp-raid-islamic-bookstore-in-qld-report/story-fn3dxiwe-1227053825531

http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2014/09/10/1227053/844709-afp-raid-islamic-bookstore-in-qld-report.jpg

THE brother of a suspected Australian suicide bomber has been arrested for recruiting foot soldiers in the battle to oust Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

OMAR Succarieh is one of two men who'll be charged with organising incursions into Syria after a series of raids in Brisbane and Logan on Wednesday, following a year-long counter-terrorism investigation.
Police say there's nothing to suggest the men were planning a terrorist attack in Australia, nor was there any threat to the upcoming G20 Leaders Summit in Brisbane in November.

But they said police had to proceed with the raids on Wednesday, in the interests of public safety, after finding one of the men with a gun and crossbow.

Succarieh, 31, is the brother of Ahmed Succarieh, an Australian reported to have committed a suicide bombing in Syria.

It's alleged the two Brisbane men were connected to the Sunni extremist group Jabhat al-Nusra, a terrorist group banned in Australia that is fighting to defeat the al-Assad regime.

AFP National Manager Counter Terrorism Assistant Commissioner Neil Gaughan said there was nothing to connect the men to the jihadist Islamic State movement.

"This has got nothing to do with Islam. This is criminal behaviour by Australians involved in terrorist activity," Mr Gaughan said.

In an extraordinary police operation, about 180 federal and Queensland police raided nine properties in Logan and Brisbane, including the iQraa Islamic Centre, in the Logan suburb of Underwood.

Succarieh, and the other man arrested, a 21-year-old from Logan, were both linked to the centre, where police seized evidence on Wednesday.

Photos taken by media outlets at the scene showed an arrow and styrofoam head pockmarked with puncture holes.

Mr Gaughan said seized electronic records would be crucial to the ongoing investigation, adding there were no other suspects in Australia.

But he said there were links to Syria and the investigation was ongoing.

The raids come as Australia weighs whether its terror threat level should be raised from medium to high, meaning an attack on home soil is considered likely.

"We've moved upwards above moderate, but whether we are yet at wanting to say it is high or extreme is obviously a big step," Deputy Prime Minister Warren Truss said on Wednesday.

"One of the things we obviously need to look at is whether there ought to be interim steps available so we can make incremental changes to our terror threat assessments as our situation worsens."

Federal police assured Australians everything was being done to keep the nation safe amid the heightened threats.

"The appropriate mechanisms for dealing with the increase in the terrorism alert - increasing our patrols, looking at security at airports - they're tried and tested and I'm comfortable that we'll be in a position to respond accordingly," Mr Gaughan said.

THE ACCUSED AND THE CHARGES:

Omar Succarieh, 31, from the Brisbane suburb of Kuraby

- To be charged with providing funds to the terrorist organisation Jabhat al-Nusra in Syria, under the Criminal Code Act of 1995

- To be charged with preparing incursions into Syria with the intention of engaging in hostile activity, under the Crimes (Foreign Incursions and Recruitment) Act 1978

A Boronia Heights man, 21

- To be charged with preparing incursions into Syria with the intention of engaging in hostile activities

- To be charged with recruiting persons to engage in hostile activities in Syria under the 1978 laws

et tu AFP Counter Terrorism Assistant Commissioner???

Spineless apologists simply everywhere

Do you agree with him Gandalf?

Don’t you just love it?

A series of well publicised Federal Police raids over a crossbow - timed impeccably to go with the security level publicity - announced, of course, by none other than a flailing PM.

And now, the Counter Terrorism Unit are worried we might all take this a bit too far, and have come out to hose it down.

And even the Australian makes a token gesture to tow the line with this report - no doubt at the request of the Federal Police.

The Australian started the panic off in the first place. They’ll keep it going too - as long as Mr Abbott’s polls are suffering. What did Mr Abbott want? Sport and terrorism back on the front pages, wasn’t it?

Mr Abbott’s wish is News Ltd’s command, but as the AFP know, broadcasting security threats, real or fake, is not helpful to ongoing investigations or public security. They also have a tendency to become self-fulfilling prophesies.
The climate of panic today has a precedent: 2001. How much is manufactured, or how much is an actual response - the Tampa, the Cronulla Riots, the invasion of Iraq - all the result of media beat-ups and actual botched reports - we’ll never know.

At least with the next war, we should be fully aware of the process that leads to its creation.

freediver wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 12:18pm:

Do you agree with him Gandalf?

ِAbsolutely not.

The AFP statement should have mentioned that these devout muslims are merely following the commands of their hideous prophet. In addition they should have also condemned all the muslim leaders who spoke out against IS as "unislamic" - or taqqiya pratcitioners, one of the two.

That would have hosed things down just nicely right?

Who do you think he is fooling with that statement? Is he trying to trick terrorists into getting over it?

freediver wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 3:30pm:

Who do you think he is fooling with that statement?

Not you thats for sure.

Of course it couldn't possibly be that he's trying to avoid alienating an entire community by tarring them all with the same brush - given that the first thing the authorities need in order to combat this threat is to have the islamic community on side.

I take it you would have opted for the "following their hideous prophet" statement? Do you think that would help the situation?

I don't think telling a blatant and transparent lie will help the situation. I can't imagine anyone reading that article and no scratching their head when they got to that quote.

So presumably you've been scratching your head all this time Tony Abbott and his ministers have been repeating the same line over and over?

Unfortunately, most people haven't interrogated talked to Abu, and therefore don't have your deep and profound insights into islam.

I'm afraid that this is not widely known as a "blatant and transparent" lie in the Australian community. Good thing we have you to educate everyone though.

You don't need a profound insight into Islam to baulk at a claim that terrorists recruiting from among Australia's Muslim community has nothing to do with Islam.

Do you agree that it is nothing to do with Islam?

freediver wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 4:04pm:

Do you agree that it is nothing to do with Islam?

Your not listening FD - I already said it is 100% about muslims following the commands of their hideous prophet - to recruit believers to abandon their communities and travel to the other side of the world to behead non-believers - and that this "blatant and transparent" fact should be broadcast by the authorities as loudly as possible - to, you know, promote calm and stability in the community.

You must have been absolutely horrified when Tony Abbott said he refused to dignify ISIS with the name "Islamic State" because he thought it had no semblance to anything islamic.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 4:16pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 14th, 2014 at 4:04pm: Do you agree that it is nothing to do with Islam? Your not listening FD - I already said it is 100% about muslims following the commands of their hideous prophet - to recruit believers to abandon their communities and travel to the other side of the world to behead non-believers - and that this "blatant and transparent" fact should be broadcast by the authorities as loudly as possible - to, you know, promote calm and stability in the community.

Good - that’s the spirit. We need to broadcast FD’s unanswered questions to Abu with the strongest means possible. We need to ensure every last one of these crossbow owners are caught and locked away.

More importantly, we need to catch every last one of those who wish to fight against the Assad regime.

Okay, last year it was our policy to assist them with weapons and air strikes, but we changed our mind. It’s a lover of Freeedom’s perogative to change his mind, you know.

Two down, thousands more to go. The AFP is onto it, but that’s no reason why people shouldn’t be alert and alarmed. Once we catch these people, the only right and proper thing to do is send them all to Manus Island.

STOP THE BOATS.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 4:16pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 14th, 2014 at 4:04pm: Do you agree that it is nothing to do with Islam? Your not listening FD - I already said it is 100% about muslims following the commands of their hideous prophet - to recruit believers to abandon their communities and travel to the other side of the world to behead non-believers - and that this "blatant and transparent" fact should be broadcast by the authorities as loudly as possible - to, you know, promote calm and stability in the community. You must have been absolutely horrified when Tony Abbott said he refused to dignify ISIS with the name "Islamic State" because he thought it had no semblance to anything islamic.

Jesuit education.
Google: taqqiya.

Everything they say and do is impeccably koranic and faithful to hadith.

Soren wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 5:34pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 14th, 2014 at 4:16pm: freediver wrote on Sep 14th, 2014 at 4:04pm: Do you agree that it is nothing to do with Islam? Your not listening FD - I already said it is 100% about muslims following the commands of their hideous prophet - to recruit believers to abandon their communities and travel to the other side of the world to behead non-believers - and that this "blatant and transparent" fact should be broadcast by the authorities as loudly as possible - to, you know, promote calm and stability in the community. You must have been absolutely horrified when Tony Abbott said he refused to dignify ISIS with the name "Islamic State" because he thought it had no semblance to anything islamic. Jesuit education. Google: taqqiya. Everything they say and do is impeccably koranic and faithful to hadith.

Lutheran education, no?

I knew it.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 4:16pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 14th, 2014 at 4:04pm: Do you agree that it is nothing to do with Islam? Your not listening FD - I already said it is 100% about muslims following the commands of their hideous prophet - to recruit believers to abandon their communities and travel to the other side of the world to behead non-believers - and that this "blatant and transparent" fact should be broadcast by the authorities as loudly as possible - to, you know, promote calm and stability in the community. You must have been absolutely horrified when Tony Abbott said he refused to dignify ISIS with the name "Islamic State" because he thought it had no semblance to anything islamic.

Is this supposed to calm and reassure people Gandalf?

freediver wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 6:01pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 14th, 2014 at 4:16pm: freediver wrote on Sep 14th, 2014 at 4:04pm: Do you agree that it is nothing to do with Islam? Your not listening FD - I already said it is 100% about muslims following the commands of their hideous prophet - to recruit believers to abandon their communities and travel to the other side of the world to behead non-believers - and that this "blatant and transparent" fact should be broadcast by the authorities as loudly as possible - to, you know, promote calm and stability in the community. You must have been absolutely horrified when Tony Abbott said he refused to dignify ISIS with the name "Islamic State" because he thought it had no semblance to anything islamic. Is this supposed to calm and reassure people Gandalf?

Not at all. It’s the most transparent act of Taqiyya I’ve seen here yet.

Abu just ignored you - as if that wasn’t bad enough. This one has the hyde to agree with you.

Another one for the Wiki, FD.

freediver wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 6:01pm:

Is this supposed to calm and reassure people Gandalf?

No FD, but I'm not the one labeling as "blatant and transparent lies" the sensible efforts by the authorities to distinguish between the peaceful mainstream muslim community and the extremists beheading people in Iraq.

You apparently don't see the importance of making such distinctions - but this is not surprising - despite the fact that you were lecturing people how important it was 7 years ago.

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...distinguish between the peaceful mainstream muslim community and the extremists beheading people in Iraq

That's one way of putting it. Do you agree with how he 'spun' it? Am I wrong to distinguish a blatant lie from some carefully chosen words of reassurance?


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You apparently don't see the importance of making such distinctions - but this is not surprising - despite the fact that you were lecturing people how important it was 7 years ago.

It is the 'good' Muslims I (naively) keep expecting to reign in the bad ones - as recently as the past week. You seemed to think this was unfair.

freediver wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 6:44pm:

It is the 'good' Muslims I (naively) keep expecting to reign in the bad ones - as recently as the past week. You seemed to think this was unfair.

Do you mean "reign" or "rein", FD?   ::)

freediver wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 6:44pm:

Am I wrong to distinguish a blatant lie from some carefully chosen words of reassurance?

Yes you are.


freediver wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 6:44pm:

It is the 'good' Muslims I (naively) keep expecting to reign [sic] in the bad ones - as recently as the past week. You seemed to think this was unfair.

So you "expect" them to rein them in - all the while tripping over yourself to convince everyone that they are expert liars and practitioners of taqqiya, and that no muslim can escape the reality that the worst excesses of ISIS are actually commanded by The Prophet. So forgive me if I question the sincerity of this "expectation".

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Yes you are.

Why?


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So you "expect" them to rein them in - all the while tripping over yourself to convince everyone that they are expert liars and practitioners of taqqiya, and that no muslim can escape the reality that the worst excesses of ISIS are actually commanded by The Prophet. So forgive me if I question the sincerity of this "expectation".

It's either that, or the rest of us rein them in for you.

What has always intrigued me about the legacy of religious founders is that, even over their protests when alive, their eventual quasi-deification by their adherents is inevitable.

Christians did it formally at Christianity's relative infancy, but Muslims and even Buddhists have done the same (albeit informally) despite the fact that, respectively, Muhammad and Siddhartha both went to lengths to renounce any claim to divinity.

You'd probably get away with being angry at Allah more easily than if you 'insult the prophet'... In Thailand you can be arrested for showing disrespect to public statues of the Buddha.

It's apparent that the ardently religious, regardless of belief, have a sense of a more personal and direct relationship with religious founders than with the object / subject of the founders' focus.

freediver wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 5:06am:

Why?

Because there are no blatant and transparent lies


freediver wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 5:06am:

It's either that, or the rest of us rein them in for you.

So they must rein them in, all the while people like you howling them down as liars and taqiyya practitioners?

Sounds reasonable.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 6:51am:

What has always intrigued me about the legacy of religious founders is that, even over their protests when alive, their eventual quasi-deification by their adherents is inevitable. Christians did it formally at Christianity's relative infancy, but Muslims and even Buddhists have done the same (albeit informally) despite the fact that, respectively, Muhammad and Siddhartha both went to lengths to renounce any claim to divinity. You'd probably get away with being angry at Allah more easily than if you 'insult the prophet'... In Thailand you can be arrested for showing disrespect to public statues of the Buddha. It's apparent that the ardently religious, regardless of belief, have a sense of a more personal and direct relationship with religious founders than with the object / subject of the founders' focus.

This is true North, and its due to a cult of the sunna/ahadith - which only emerged several hundred years after the death of The Prophet. It is indeed a curse on this religion, and can only be rectified by a rediscovery of islam's true source - the Quran - and an acknowledgement of the subordinate role of the ahadith.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 8:13am:

freediver wrote on Sep 15th, 2014 at 5:06am: Why? Because there are no blatant and transparent lies freediver wrote on Sep 15th, 2014 at 5:06am: It's either that, or the rest of us rein them in for you. So they must rein them in, all the while people like you howling them down as liars and taqiyya practitioners? Sounds reasonable.

No chance of a straight answer on whether you agree with the "nothing to do with Islam" line then?

Muslims can either rein in the extremists themselves, or let the rest of the community do it whatever way they can. That's just the way it is Gandalf. I don't care if you think it is unfair or claim victimhood at every opportunity. If you want to be a victim of this process, you will be a victim of this process. It's up to you. I guess you'll let Islam be your guide.

freediver wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 5:57pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 15th, 2014 at 8:13am: freediver wrote on Sep 15th, 2014 at 5:06am: Why? Because there are no blatant and transparent lies freediver wrote on Sep 15th, 2014 at 5:06am: It's either that, or the rest of us rein them in for you. So they must rein them in, all the while people like you howling them down as liars and taqiyya practitioners? Sounds reasonable. No chance of a straight answer on whether you agree with the "nothing to do with Islam" line then? Muslims can either rein in the extremists themselves, or let the rest of the community do it whatever way they can. That's just the way it is Gandalf. I don't care if you think it is unfair or claim victimhood at every opportunity. If you want to be a victim of this process, you will be a victim of this process. It's up to you. I guess you'll let Islam be your guide.

So, sanctioning pogroms now, FD?    ::)

freediver wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 5:57pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 15th, 2014 at 8:13am: freediver wrote on Sep 15th, 2014 at 5:06am: Why? Because there are no blatant and transparent lies freediver wrote on Sep 15th, 2014 at 5:06am: It's either that, or the rest of us rein them in for you. So they must rein them in, all the while people like you howling them down as liars and taqiyya practitioners? Sounds reasonable. No chance of a straight answer on whether you agree with the "nothing to do with Islam" line then? Muslims can either rein in the extremists themselves, or let the rest of the community do it whatever way they can. That's just the way it is Gandalf. I don't care if you think it is unfair or claim victimhood at every opportunity. If you want to be a victim of this process, you will be a victim of this process. It's up to you. I guess you'll let Islam be your guide.

Now now, FD, G is one of us. No need to break any shopfront windows or get the brownshirts out - we’re all friends here.

We’re in Team Australia. We believe in Freeedom.

Australia has prescribed 19 terrorist organisations.
All 19 are Muslims organisations. One is a Kurdish separatist one, but Kurds are Muslims. So this single one is not a terrorist for Muslim purposes but is still an organisation of Muslims.
The other 18 are explicitly Islamic.


But the numpties and the dissemblers and the mendacious liars would have us believe that Islam has nuffin' to do wiv nuffin'.

You look at the world today, the tensions, the wars, the deaths, the persecutions - it's overwhelmingly about Islam. With multiculturalism and mass migration, the bloody borders of Islam are everywhere.



The world is not suffering from the Mormons, the Presbiterians, the Jews, the Sikh, Shintoists, Taoists, Buddhists, Catholics, Anglicans and yes, Lutherans.

Islam is the answer to the question: 'what ails the world'?

Not nothing, Soren.  I've never claimed that.  I have made the point that Islam is not monolithic, there are differing interpretations, therefore why do you assume that one interpretation is to blame for everything and therefore all Muslims guilty when they may well have differing interpretations and have nothing to do with what ever you're claiming?   ::)

Using your logic, I am forced to return to the examples of Joseph Kony and Fred Phelps.   Obviously Christianity has everything to do with what they have said or done.  Right?  ::)

freediver wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 5:57pm:

No chance of a straight answer on whether you agree with the "nothing to do with Islam" line then?

I am unclear on what exactly he means "has nothing to do with islam" - is it ISIS? Is it the raid?, or the criminal activity that was involved? From his statement that followed, I would say he is talking about people engaging in criminal activity - in which case I would agree - it has nothing to do with islam.


freediver wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 5:57pm:

Muslims can either rein in the extremists themselves, or let the rest of the community do it whatever way they can. That's just the way it is Gandalf.

No, this is about your hypocrisy, which you continue to dance around. How can you, with any sort of honesty, stand up and declare mainstream muslims must rein in the extremists, all the while mocking them as liars and taqqiya artists whenever they *DO* make calls against extremism and so forth?

Do you think the 'Muslims 4 Australia' bbq on the weekend was useful and commendable in this respect?

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 8:40pm:

Not nothing, Soren.  I've never claimed that.  I have made the point that Islam is not monolithic, there are differing interpretations, therefore why do you assume that one interpretation is to blame for everything and therefore all Muslims guilty when they may well have differing interpretations and have nothing to do with what ever you're claiming?   ::) Using your logic, I am forced to return to the examples of Joseph Kony and Fred Phelps.   Obviously Christianity has everything to do with what they have said or done.  Right?  ::)

That is why there are 18 terrorist organisations rather than 1. It's the rich tapestry of multiculturalism.

You have never explained why, out of so many more Christians in Australia, not a single one has felt compelled by his religion to fly overseas and help him out. What logic exactly are you resorting to? It certainly isn't anyone else's.


Quote:

I am unclear on what exactly he means "has nothing to do with islam" - is it ISIS? Is it the raid?, or the criminal activity that was involved?

Do any of these three have nothing to do with Islam? Of course it is unclear what he means. It is a meaningless platitude.


Quote:

From his statement that followed, I would say he is talking about people engaging in criminal activity - in which case I would agree - it has nothing to do with islam

.

The "criminal activity" being Muslims recruiting Muslims to fight Jihad for the Islamic state - this is what you think has nothing to do with Islam?


Quote:

No, this is about your hypocrisy, which you continue to dance around. How can you, with any sort of honesty, stand up and declare mainstream muslims must rein in the extremists, all the while mocking them as liars and taqqiya artists whenever they *DO* make calls against extremism and so forth?

I don't see any hypocrisy in that. Perhaps you should quote an example of me declaring these people to be liars. As I pointed out earlier, saying the right thing is merely the first step.


Quote:

Do you think the 'Muslims 4 Australia' bbq on the weekend was useful and commendable in this respect?

It seems fine to me, but it kind of misses the mark on what we are discussing. Trying to mend relations between the 'good' Muslims and mainstream Australians (which is what the BBQ seemed to be about) is not the same as reining in extremists. If we didn't have so many Australian Muslim terrorists there would not be any need for the event. I can't see it encouraging the guy's son to come back home.

freediver wrote on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 6:58pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15th, 2014 at 8:40pm: Not nothing, Soren.  I've never claimed that.  I have made the point that Islam is not monolithic, there are differing interpretations, therefore why do you assume that one interpretation is to blame for everything and therefore all Muslims guilty when they may well have differing interpretations and have nothing to do with what ever you're claiming?   ::) Using your logic, I am forced to return to the examples of Joseph Kony and Fred Phelps.   Obviously Christianity has everything to do with what they have said or done.  Right?  ::) That is why there are 18 terrorist organisations rather than 1. It's the rich tapestry of multiculturalism. You have never explained why, out of so many more Christians in Australia, not a single one has felt compelled by his religion to fly overseas and help him out. What logic exactly are you resorting to? It certainly isn't anyone else's.

Well, actually, FD it is.  It is the logic used by you and your Islamophobic compatriots.  It is an example of argumentum absurdium.  I take your logic and point out it's absurdity by supplying a simile which is obviously wrong.  However, it appears the subtlety is beyond you and you take it literally.  Sometimes its like casting pearls before swine.   ::)

BTW, can you please stop including random quotes in the same message without the correct attribution?  It seems I'm saying things I haven't.   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 11:51pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 17th, 2014 at 6:58pm: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15th, 2014 at 8:40pm: Not nothing, Soren.  I've never claimed that.  I have made the point that Islam is not monolithic, there are differing interpretations, therefore why do you assume that one interpretation is to blame for everything and therefore all Muslims guilty when they may well have differing interpretations and have nothing to do with what ever you're claiming?   ::) Using your logic, I am forced to return to the examples of Joseph Kony and Fred Phelps.   Obviously Christianity has everything to do with what they have said or done.  Right?  ::) That is why there are 18 terrorist organisations rather than 1. It's the rich tapestry of multiculturalism. You have never explained why, out of so many more Christians in Australia, not a single one has felt compelled by his religion to fly overseas and help him out. What logic exactly are you resorting to? It certainly isn't anyone else's. Well, actually, FD it is.  It is the logic used by you and your Islamophobic compatriots.  It is an example of argumentum absurdium.  I take your logic and point out it's absurdity by supplying a simile which is obviously wrong.  However, it appears the subtlety is beyond you and you take it literally.  Sometimes its like casting pearls before swine.   ::) BTW, can you please stop including random quotes in the same message without the correct attribution?  It seems I'm saying things I haven't.   ::)

Two things, Brain.
It is reductio ad absurdum. There are few things as ridiculous as an ignorant pedant like you clumsily trying to appear knowledgeable and subtle.

Secondly, you made an absurd claim. That's not the same thing as presenting  an argument. You are trying to show a parallel where not even resemblance exists, as FD showed.   

freediver wrote on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 6:58pm:

It seems fine to me, but it kind of misses the mark on what we are discussing.

You are big on empty demands FD, but you haven't explained exactly how they are supposed to be "reined in" - a particularly pertinent question given you routinely label as taqiyya and PR stunts any time you bother to notice muslim leaders making efforts against extremism. And what you don't see (sermons etc) you baselessly assume to be sinnister and counter-productive. So I don't think its unreasonable to say you have a prejudicial predisposition to this issue.

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Well, actually, FD it is.  It is the logic used by you and your Islamophobic compatriots.  It is an example of argumentum absurdium.  I take your logic and point out it's absurdity by supplying a simile which is obviously wrong.  However, it appears the subtlety is beyond you and you take it literally.  Sometimes its like casting pearls before swine.

The difference between no Christians, out of a massive population, traveling overseas to fight on Kony's behalf, and what our Muslim population has produced, is not a mere subtlety. It is in a different ballpark, and is a classic example of why all your bullshit misses the point. The global threat posed by Islam to freedom, democracy, loosing your head etc is real. Your examples demonstrate why Islam is so different to other religions, not why we are wrong to criticise it.

You do not comprehend the logic used by anyone else. It is beyond you. If you want to criticise someone's logic, state what you think it is and criticise it directly, rather than providing and endless stream of retarded examples of every single way you can misunderstand what we are saying.


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BTW, can you please stop including random quotes in the same message without the correct attribution?  It seems I'm saying things I haven't.

They are not random quotes Brian. They are specific quotes. But I will give you some free advice - if you don't understand what is being said, don't feel obliged to butt in with similes of how everyone else is wrong.


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You are big on empty demands FD, but you haven't explained exactly how they are supposed to be "reined in"

No-one has asked. But I have given examples.


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a particularly pertinent question given you routinely label as taqiyya and PR stunts

I asked you to quote some examples last time you made this accusation. I label it as taqiyya when it obviously is taqiyya - like the classic example of the British Imam telling the media in response to 9/11 that it is wrong to kill innocents, then telling his congregation in Arabic that only Muslims are innocent.

freediver wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 1:35pm:

No-one has asked. But I have given examples.

Please repeat them.


freediver wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 1:35pm:

I asked you to quote some examples last time you made this accusation.

Its in that big long thread I started about a year back about how you lot can't be taken seriously. You spent about 10 pages claiming how the statements the Australian islamic council released condemning extremism were not only PR stunts, but even further - it was actually part of a sinister ruse to ensure only the "wrong kind" of violence (meaning the violence that was counter-productive) was condemned and to "bide their time" (your exact words I believe) to ensure the end-goal of establishing the caliphate was realised successfully. Your source, it goes without saying, was of course Abu.

You see what I mean FD? Even if the muslim leaders are "successful" in "reining in" their flock, its only to ensure that the final demise of the kufr succeeds.

Quote me.

An example - Muslim mothers dobbing in their sons. According to the newspaper this stopped about 40 of them going overseas to wage Jihad and rape Kurds. Apparently they are the ones getting arrested now for planning local terrorist attacks, despite knowing they were under surveillance (pretty dumb hey?). To me, that is a lot more useful than a BBQ to convince people they have nothing to fear from the Muslim community, while armed guards mind the perimeter in case something happens.

freediver wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 7:24pm:

Quote me. An example - Muslim mothers dobbing in their sons. According to the newspaper this stopped about 40 of them going overseas to wage Jihad and rape Kurds. Apparently they are the ones getting arrested now for planning local terrorist attacks, despite knowing they were under surveillance (pretty dumb hey?). To me, that is a lot more useful than a BBQ to convince people they have nothing to fear from the Muslim community, while armed guards mind the perimeter in case something happens.

Sure the guards weren't there to make sure someone like Sprint leading his Islamophobic pogrom didn't crash the party?   ::)

Freediver, do you think this is a PR stunt? Henning is next to be executed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qftTf0itVm4

Can you post a text version please? I can't do videos at the moment.

This article has most of the relevant info.


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A friend of the British hostage being threatened with murder by Islamic State militants has made an impassioned videotaped plea to the group's leader in an attempt to save his life. The appeal, in both Arabic and English and addressed directly to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, who styles himself as caliph of the self-proclaimed state, was posted on YouTube Wednesday, four days after militants threatened to kill the aid convoy volunteer from north-west England. The friend, who calls himself Abu Abdullah, is understood to have witnessed Alan Henning's abduction near Aleppo last December. After describing how the taxi driver from Greater Manchester – "a family man, a good man" – washed cars to raise money to buy medical equipment for Syrians, he breaks down, begging al-Baghdadi to spare his life. "He felt safe, relaxed and happy, believing as we did that no harm could come to him, or us, while he was in the place under your care – especially because he was bringing much needed aid to the brothers and sisters in Syria." He begs al-Baghdadi to "honour our amana" – a pledge of safety that Henning had received from his Muslim friends – and set him free. Henning, 47, who is married with two teenage children, volunteered to join his Muslim friends on the convoy last Christmas. It is thought to have been at least his second trip to Syria. He and his friends were surrounded by armed men at a warehouse a short time after crossing the Turkish border on Boxing Day. He was separated from the group, according to accounts that some gave to journalists after they were released and returned to Britain, and taken away. They and Henning's family remained silent about his plight, on the advice of the UK Foreign Office, until he appeared in the group's latest video last weekend. Entitled A Message to the Allies of America, the film first shows David Haines, the Scottish aid worker, being forced to deliver a speech in which he blames his death upon David Cameron and Britain's relationship with the United States. It then depicts Haines's murder by beheading. The killer is then shown holding Henning by the collar of the orange jumpsuit in which he is dressed. Indicating towards his captive with his knife, the killer says: "If you, Cameron, persist in fighting the Islamic State, then you, like your master Obama, will have the blood of your people on your hands." As well as making the video appeal, Henning's friends released a clip in which Henning explains why he has decided to spend Christmas travelling to Syria. He says that joining a Syrian aid convoy was "all worthwhile when you see what is needed actually get to where it needs to go. That makes it all worthwhile. "No sacrifice we do is nothing compared to what they're going through every day on a daily basis." Cage, an organisation founded by Moazzam Begg to campaign for the release of prisoners in Guantánamo Bay after his own release from the US military facility, described Henning's kidnapping as a contravention of Islamic law. Begg was himself charged with alleged terror offences relating to Syria earlier this year. In a statement, Cage research director Asim Qureshi said: "Alan Henning is not involved in any hostility to Islam or Muslims. Therefore, he cannot be considered a prisoner of war under Islamic law and should be released immediately. We believe there are no grounds for holding Henning prisoner or executing him." In his appeal, Abu Abdullah goes on: "Alan was moved by the suffering of the Syrian people, in particular the children. He devoted all his free time, raising money and awareness about the suffering. He washed cars to raise money, he collected aid, he talked to everybody he met about the crimes committed against the Muslims in Syria. "In December last year he missed Christmas with his own family, to spend it helping our brothers and sisters in Syria. We all remember one night, on the journey to Syria, some brothers were so tired they wanted to get a hotel. But Alan said: 'No, not me, I'm going to sleep in the van, and the money I save, it can go towards the Syrian people.' This is the kind of man he was. "He is a family man. He is a good man. Like you and like us, his only interest was helping to relieve the suffering of brothers and sisters in Syria. Please do not take his life to pay for the crimes that the international governments have committed. Alan ignored advice from the British government and took the risk to travel to Syria to help the people. "We read every day about innocent brothers and sisters being killed in the air strikes, but this man is innocent of all these crimes. He has no affiliation with any political agenda. "He has shown through his actions, and his love and concern for our brothers and sisters that he is not an enemy of Islam or the Islamic State. We plead with you to show him compassion and mercy as he showed compassion and mercy for the Muslims of Syria." Finally, he says: "We beg you to tread the path of justice and show him the compassion that Allah, praise be upon him, placed in the hearts of the believers and in your heart. "Please show the world how merciful Muslims can be. We know you're not scared of the creation, only the Creator, so please, please, please release Alan."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/17/alan-henning-syria-friend-appel-aleppo-al-baghdadi

Doesn't sound like it, unless you are referring to relations with ISIS.

freediver wrote on Sep 19^th, 2014 at 7:24pm:

Quote me.

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2013 at 1:12pm:

Quote: Do any search on muslim organisations that represent mainstream islam in Australia, UK and the US - and just about anywhere else, you will see that the message is consistent: extremism and violence in the name of islam is rejected and condemned. No, what they make clear is that extremism and violence of the wrong type, with the wrong timing, or without their approval is rejected, but usually still justified or excused.

Your only evidence for this claim was what Abu and a single (roundly condemned) radical cleric said.

Thus clearly you acknowledge that condemnation of violence occurs, but you cynically dismiss it as serving some sinister ulterior motive. Are you saying that you would not view the condemnations and rejection of violence by leaders now such as Jamal Rifi and Keizer Trad as not only useless, but similarly sinister?


Quote:

An example - Muslim mothers dobbing in their sons. According to the newspaper this stopped about 40 of them going overseas to wage Jihad and rape Kurds. Apparently they are the ones getting arrested now for planning local terrorist attacks, despite knowing they were under surveillance (pretty dumb hey?). To me, that is a lot more useful than a BBQ to convince people they have nothing to fear from the Muslim community, while armed guards mind the perimeter in case something happens.

Obviously you are unaware that the BBQ was promoted by the father of the 'head posing' terrorist precisely to educate parents about the danger of their children running off to join terrorists - and encouraging them to hide their passports and dob them in to the authorities. - in addition to building bridges with the wider community.

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Your only evidence for this claim was what Abu and a single (roundly condemned) radical cleric said.

You left out a few minor details Gandalf. There is far more evidence than that. For example, there is the word of your prophet. I know you make a bold effort to reinterpret his words, for example that his command to execute gay people (both the giver and the taker) is not in fact a command to execute gay people. But this does not make the evidence disappear. Nor does it make the evidence support your case. And of course there are the views of a majority of Muslims in several large nations, such as Malaysia. There are also plenty of examples of Muslim leaders in the press, like that taqiyya-peddling British one that got caught red0handed.


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Thus clearly you acknowledge that condemnation of violence occurs

No-one likes being on the receiving end.


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but you cynically dismiss it as serving some sinister ulterior motive

I merely call it for what it is. No Muslim leader stands up and rejects violence in every possible form. You are vastly oversimplifying my criticism and the nature of support for violent means.


Quote:

Obviously you are unaware that the BBQ was promoted by the father of the 'head posing' terrorist precisely to educate parents about the danger of their children running off to join terrorists

Is that why he invited so many non-Muslims, in case their kids decide it is cool?

freediver wrote on Sep 20^th, 2014 at 6:59pm:

You left out a few minor details Gandalf. There is far more evidence than that. For example, there is the word of your prophet. I know you make a bold effort to reinterpret his words

Yes FD, I try desperately to twist these words into something they are not...

The most excellent Jihad (Holy War) is that for the conquest of self.

Faith is a restraint against all violence, let no Mu’min commit violence.

The best Jihad is his who speaks a just word before a tyrannical authority.

Verily, it is better that the leader should err on the side of forgiveness rather than that he should err in punishing.

Show Forgiveness and Kindness to Unbelievers & Even Enemies

sinister no?

What is a Mumin?

freediver wrote on Sep 21^st, 2014 at 12:05pm:

What is a Mumin?

Ever hear of this handy thing called google?  ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 21^st, 2014 at 12:21pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 21st, 2014 at 12:05pm: What is a Mumin? Ever hear of this handy thing called google?  ::)

I could never work this one out.

I think it works like this: he gets us to explain it first, then he'll check it himself in case he can trip us up somehow for doing taqiyya or something.

Either way, its fairly clear FD gives not a damn about the question he is asking about. Its just another way of scoring his petty points.

Sometimes a question is just a question Gandalf. I doubt anyone else reading this knows the answer.

freediver wrote on Sep 21^st, 2014 at 7:29pm:

Sometimes a question is just a question Gandalf. I doubt anyone else reading this knows the answer.

Ever hear of this handy thing called google?  ::)

freediver wrote on Sep 21^st, 2014 at 7:29pm:

Sometimes a question is just a question Gandalf. I doubt anyone else reading this knows the answer.

Serious question FD - did it not occur to you that google would be a faster and more efficient way of getting the answer?

I thought you might have a strong incentive to avoid looking like one of those Muslims who throws in random Arabic words then gets upset when asked to speak English. I guess you proved me wrong.

You didn't answer my question FD.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 21^st, 2014 at 10:05pm:

You didn't answer my question FD.

I've noticed he's like that.  Expects everybody else to answer his questions but taps dances around theirs...   ::)

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 21^st, 2014 at 9:56am:

freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2014 at 6:59pm: You left out a few minor details Gandalf. There is far more evidence than that. For example, there is the word of your prophet. I know you make a bold effort to reinterpret his words Yes FD, I try desperately to twist these words into something they are not... The most excellent Jihad (Holy War) is that for the conquest of self. Faith is a restraint against all violence, let no Mu’min commit violence. The best Jihad is his who speaks a just word before a tyrannical authority. Verily, it is better that the leader should err on the side of forgiveness rather than that he should err in punishing. Show Forgiveness and Kindness to Unbelievers & Even Enemies sinister no?

That's not what FD asked. FD expects you to have a strong incentive to avoid looking like one of those Muslims who throws in random Arabic words then gets upset when asked to speak English. You proved him wrong.

Sometimes a question is just a question, you know. You answer the question properly.

freediver wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

Succarieh, 31, is the brother of Ahmed Succarieh, an Australian reported to have committed a suicide bombing in Syria. It's alleged the two Brisbane men were connected to the Sunni extremist group Jabhat al-Nusra, a terrorist group banned in Australia that is fighting to defeat the al-Assad regime. AFP National Manager Counter Terrorism Assistant Commissioner Neil Gaughan said there was nothing to connect the men to the jihadist Islamic State movement. "This has got nothing to do with Islam.

By this reckoning 'Islamophobia' (ie the critical examination of Islam) has nuffin' to do with Islam.

Nuffin' has nuffin' to do wiv nuffin'.

ANyone who even hints at thinking that Muslims have anything to do with Islam is an Islamophobe and and a Muslimophobe and a bigot and climate denier and Zionist Murdoch stooge of the neocon big oil ppppfffttttttssss...................

Soren wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2014 at 7:46pm:

Nuffin' has nuffin' to do wiv nuffin'.

Good point, old boy,. That’s the smartest thing you’ve said since your review of Freud on Man’s Soul.

FD might disagree. As a devout modernist, he believes questions are sometimes just questions.

We know better, eh?

Karnal wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2014 at 8:50pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 22nd, 2014 at 7:46pm: Nuffin' has nuffin' to do wiv nuffin'. Good point, old boy,. That’s the smartest thing you’ve said since your review of Freud on Man’s Soul. FD might disagree. As a devout modernist, he believes questions are sometimes just questions. We know better, eh?

You are an idiot and judging by your love-in with gweggowy on another thread, a disgusting idiot, like him. Vile.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1411350123/38#38

Soren wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2014 at 9:42pm:

Karnal wrote on Sep 22nd, 2014 at 8:50pm: Soren wrote on Sep 22nd, 2014 at 7:46pm: Nuffin' has nuffin' to do wiv nuffin'. Good point, old boy,. That’s the smartest thing you’ve said since your review of Freud on Man’s Soul. FD might disagree. As a devout modernist, he believes questions are sometimes just questions. We know better, eh? You are an idiot and judging by your love-in with gweggowy on another thread, a disgusting idiot, like him. Vile. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1411350123/38#38

Don’t try to top yourself, old  boy. Every time you try, you do come across like an awful old shrieker.

Constructive criticism,  dear chap. You’re still learning the language. Every little bit helps, eh?

Rest assured. You’ll be a true Australian in no time.