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http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl Member Run Boards >> Extremism Exposed >> At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1410694482 Message started by Yadda on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 9:34pm

Title: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 9:34pm

At last, the claim that 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' - is beginning to be ridiculed by increasing numbers of American citizens!

At last, the claim that is being promoted, by Western politicians like Tony Abbott, and Barrack Obama, and David Cameron, that the ISLAMIC State [ISIS] has nothing to do with ISLAM, is being publicly ridiculed by increasing numbers of American citizens [and by the citizens of other nations too!].

Wake up Tony!!!!!

Before you are the last - RAT - to get off that boat!!!!!!

Quote:

Obama’s “not Islamic” Islamic State claim ridiculed
Robert Spencer Sep 12, 2014

As well it should be. The disconnect between the statements of the administration — and the government and media establishment in general — and reality is increasingly large, and Americans are noticing in increasing numbers. “Obama’s ‘not Islamic’ Islamic State Claim Ridiculed,” IPT News, September 11, 2014:

President Obama’s assertion Wednesday night that the Islamic State terrorist group “is not ‘Islamic'” is drawing derision from a number of quarters.

....“Which will come first, flying cars and vacations to Mars, or a simple acknowledgment that beliefs guide behavior and that certain religious ideas—jihad, martyrdom, blasphemy, apostasy—reliably lead to oppression and murder?”

....The Quran includes numerous passages encouraging violent jihad and inspiring hatred of non-believers, Harris notes. Robert Spencer offers specific examples here, and asks why the Islamic State has become such a magnet for wannabe jihadists if it was not seen as inherently Islamic.

But instead of acknowledging those verses and debating their modern application, the president used a nationally televised speech to act as if they do not exist.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/obamas-not-islamic-islamic-state-claim-ridiculed

FURTHER INFO, a recent YT video on this exact same issue.....

Bill Maher Battles Charlie Rose on Why Islam is More Dangerous than Other Religions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjInNxIwfRw

SOURCE DOCUMENT, for Bill Maher / Charlie Rose YT....
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/bill-maher-to-claim-that-islam-is-like-other-religions-is-just-naive-and-plain-wrong

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Sprintcyclist on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 9:45pm

yes, but publically what can they say ?

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 9:46pm

MORE, ON THE ABSURD CLAIM, THAT THE BEHAVIOUR OF ISIS, HAS 'NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM'....

Quote:

Obama: The Islamic State “is not ‘Islamic'”
Robert Spencer Sep 10, 2014

[citations from the Koran are given within the article.]

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/obama-the-islamic-state-is-not-islamic

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 9:55pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 9:45pm:

yes, but publically what can they say ?

I would have thought that speaking, BROADCASTING! the truth [about what ISLAM is], would be a good option.

sprint, why does everyone want to avoid confronting the truth ?

Are we afraid of the consequences, of confronting the truth about what ISLAM is ?

ISLAM is a cancer!

Deal with it [confront it], or die.

The spectre of ISLAM, is a test - for all of the peoples of the world.

A spiritual test.

Appeasing [those who are] evil, won't make the evil go away.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 11:07pm

Y, why was Robert Spencer banned from travel to the UK?

Why should we consider anything such an extremist as him publishes as having any veracity? ::)

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 11:47pm

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 11:07pm:

Y, why was Robert Spencer banned from travel to the UK?

Brian,

That is easy.

Because the UK moslem community protested to the UK government, when it was publicised that Robert Spencer was to travel to the UK to speak on ISLAM and about the impact of large numbers of locally resident moslems upon their host Western societies.

And the UK government chose to ban Robert Spencer from travel to the UK, to appease the UK moslem community.

Quote:

Why should we consider anything such an extremist as him publishes as having any veracity? ::)

Brian,

I always like to enquire, and to test for myself, whether the stated opinions of people [e.g. like Robert Spencer] have any veracity and credibility.

Dictionary;
veracity = = conformity to facts; accuracy. habitual truthfulness.

Dictionary;
credible = = able to be believed; convincing.

Brian,

Is it your contention that freedom of expression, and freedom of speech, so as to allow all people to engage in public debate about contentious issues should be banned or 'restricted' ?

IMAGE.....

"Freedom of expression GO TO HELL!"

QUESTION;
Why should Robert Spencer have been banned from entering the UK, on a speaking tour, on the issue of ISLAM, and its effect upon Western societies ?

Is it because to allow Robert Spencer to enter the UK [on a speaking tour], would have 'upset' moslems in the UK ?

And was that a valid reason to ban Robert Spencer from entering the UK ?

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 11:57pm

Yadda wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 11:47pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 11:07pm:

Y, why was Robert Spencer banned from travel to the UK?

So, then, what do you think of the Australian Government's decision to ban David Irving from travelling to Australia?

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 12:04am

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 11:57pm:

So, then, what do you think of the Australian Government's decision to ban David Irving from travelling to Australia?

IMO, it was a mistake.

I'm in favour of EVERYONE being able to express their opinion.

Otherwise, how can folly be readily exposed ?

Yadda said.....

Quote:

FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS SELF REGULATING

Open societies do not fear the opinions of fools.
....they rather, EXPOSE and laugh at folly!

In any free and open society, where debate is free and open, if a 'position' is absurd, if an 'argument' is absurd,
...then the debater is [often] condemned to all, WITH HIS OWN WORDS.

And that result [i.e. the exposure of folly] is THE VERY FUNCTION, of free and open debate.

Free and open debate is meant to be A CONTEST OF IDEAS!
....where every folly is revealed.

And open debate is healthy, to all general freedoms in a society.

Whereas, lies are easily concealed in closed societies,
....*because* these closed societies are places where lies, and falsehood,
....ARE NEVER EXPOSED TO SCRUTINY, OR SPOKEN TRUTH.

IMAGE.....

"Freedom of expression GO TO HELL!"

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 12:10am

Yadda wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 12:04am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 11:57pm:

So, then, what do you think of the Australian Government's decision to ban David Irving from travelling to Australia?

IMO, it was mistaken.

So, "appeasing" the Jewish community was wrong?

Quote:

I'm in favour of EVERYONE being able to express their opinion.

Otherwise, how can folly be exposed ?

So, Robert Spencer's views are folly and should be exposed?

Why do you therefore rail so much against the Islamists expressing their opinions?

Tell me, Y, do you think elected Governments have a responsibility to listen to and comply with the wishes of the electorate or sections of it or should they ignore what the voters are saying and merely do what they want?

Also, do you think that Government has a responsibility to maintain good order and social equilibrium?

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 12:20am

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 12:10am:

Yadda wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 12:04am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 11:57pm:

So, then, what do you think of the Australian Government's decision to ban David Irving from travelling to Australia?

IMO, it was mistaken.

So, "appeasing" the Jewish community was wrong?

Yes it was, in that case, imo!!!

David Irving should have been allowed to travel to Australia, and allowed to express his views, imo.

Regarding moslems expressing their views....

These people [below] were inciting moslems, to murder other members of the Australian community, imo.

If i had the power to do so, i would have had them arrested, and if they had been brought into my court of law, as a judge i would have sentenced them to public hanging, ....every last one of them.

IMAGE...

Sydney, 2012, moslem street protests.
Moslems, religious bigots, 'demonstrating', just how 'peaceful' and tolerant ISLAM and moslems really are - towards those who don't hold with the views ~~of ISIS~~ of ISLAM and moslems.

Moslems on a Sydney street, openly demanding their right to exercise their 'freedom of religion',
.....the 'religious' right to kill people who do not believe as they [moslems] believe.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 12:29am

Yadda wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 12:20am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 12:10am:

Yadda wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 12:04am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 11:57pm:

So, then, what do you think of the Australian Government's decision to ban David Irving from travelling to Australia?

IMO, it was mistaken.

So, "appeasing" the Jewish community was wrong?

Yes it was, in that case, imo!!!

David Irving should have been allowed to travel to Australia, and allowed to express his views, imo.

Interesting. So, David Irving, a convicted liar should have been allowed to disseminate his views without regard to the wishes of a section of the Australian electorate?

I note you didn't answer the other questions, Y. Why? ::)

I note your hypocrisy though. Holocaust Denial is OK but Muslims expressing their views is a capital offence? ::)

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 12:41am

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 12:10am:

So, Robert Spencer's views are folly and should be exposed?

What folly are you referring to ?

Quote:

Why do you therefore rail so much against the Islamists expressing their opinions?

I quite happy for moslems to express views like these [image below] on 'the moslem street', and in a moslem nation [but NOT, here in Australia!]....

It is INCITEMENT TO MURDER, imo.

IMAGE...

Quote:

Tell me, Y, do you think elected Governments have a responsibility to listen to and comply with the wishes of the electorate or sections of it or should they ignore what the voters are saying and merely do what they want?

I believe that an elected Government should allow citizens to behave in every way which is deemed [is determined in law] to be lawful.

And that serious criminals [and persistent lawbreakers] should be permanently removed/separated from open society.

Quote:

Also, do you think that Government has a responsibility to maintain good order and social equilibrium?

See my last answer, above.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 6:22pm

Yadda wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 12:41am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 12:10am:

So, Robert Spencer's views are folly and should be exposed?

What folly are you referring to ?

His Islamophobic rantings?

Quote:

[quote]
Why do you therefore rail so much against the Islamists expressing their opinions?

I quite happy for moslems to express views like these [image below] on 'the moslem street', and in a moslem nation [but NOT, here in Australia!]....
[/quote]

Ah, so it's OK for David Irving to express his Holocaust denial viewpoint but not for Muslims to express their distasteful views in Australia? You don't perceive that as being a tad inconsistent or is it in your view OK to offend Jews but not OK to offend non-Muslims?

Quote:

It is INCITEMENT TO MURDER, imo.

It could be construed as such. Why haven't you complained to the Police and had them arrested, Yada? I'd support your efforts in the courts to raise a test case. They'd be much better than Sprint's proposed Pogrom. ::)

Quote:

[quote]
Tell me, Y, do you think elected Governments have a responsibility to listen to and comply with the wishes of the electorate or sections of it or should they ignore what the voters are saying and merely do what they want?

I believe that an elected Government should allow citizens to behave in every way which is deemed [is determined in law] to be lawful.
[/quote]

Right. So, Muslims voicing their opinion was determined to be lawful apparently, as no arrests were made over the language of the protesters, just their actions. So, why are you claiming they were inciting people to murder?

Quote:

And that serious criminals [and persistent lawbreakers] should be permanently removed/separated from open society.

So, you would ban David Irving then from entering Australia as he has been proven to be a "persistent lawbreaker" overseas?

Quote:

[quote]
Also, do you think that Government has a responsibility to maintain good order and social equilibrium?

See my last answer, above.
[/quote]

I can take that to be yes, then?

So you have no problem with the Government then banning David Irving or Robert Spencer from entering (respectively) Australia or the UK on the basis to allow them in would be disruptive to "good order and social equilibrium?"

You seem to be contradicting yourself, Y. Perhaps you need to go away and have a rethink of your position on the issue of Freedom of Speech? ::)

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 7:48pm

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 6:22pm:

You seem to be contradicting yourself, Y.

Perhaps you need to go away and have a rethink of your position on the issue of Freedom of Speech? ::)

brian,

I am not contradicting myself.

I know what my position on Freedom of Speech is.

Freedom of Speech, is good [where it is NOT abused, to include, for example, incitement to violence].

Regarding Freedom of Speech....

These people [below] were NOT exercising Freedom of Speech.

They were inciting people, to commit murder!

IMAGE...

Sydney, 2012, moslem street protests.
Moslems, religious bigots, 'demonstrating', just how 'peaceful' and tolerant ISLAM and moslems really are - towards those who don't hold with the views ~~of ISIS~~ of ISLAM and moslems.

Moslems on a Sydney street, openly demanding their right to exercise their 'freedom of religion',
.....the 'religious' right to kill people who do not believe as they [moslems] believe.

This [below] generally expresses [and demonstrates graphically] the regard that all moslems have toward the right to Freedom of Speech.

IMAGE.....

"Freedom of expression GO TO HELL!"

....that eventuality is not not possible.

Why so ?

Because HELL, will be the abode of ALL moslems.

And moslems and Freedom of Speech, cannot abide in the same house!

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 9:10pm

Yadda wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 7:48pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 6:22pm:

You seem to be contradicting yourself, Y.

Perhaps you need to go away and have a rethink of your position on the issue of Freedom of Speech? ::)

brian,

I am not contradicting myself.

Actually, you are, as I've demonstrated.

Quote:

I know what my position on Freedom of Speech is.

Freedom of Speech, is good [where it is NOT abused, to include, for example, incitement to violence].

Excellent, excellent, Y. Well considered. I claim David Irving (who, unlike you, I have actually heard speak) and Robert Spencer (who I admit I haven't but going on what I've read) incite others to violence. Therefore they don't deserve freedom of speech any more than those Muslims who incite others to violence, right?

Quote:

Regarding Freedom of Speech....

These people [below] were NOT exercising Freedom of Speech.

They were inciting people, to commit murder!

IMAGE...

Sydney, 2012, moslem street protests.
Moslems, religious bigots, 'demonstrating', just how 'peaceful' and tolerant ISLAM and moslems really are - towards those who don't hold with the views of ISIS of ISLAM and moslems.

Moslems on a Sydney street, openly demanding their right to exercise their 'freedom of religion',
.....the 'religious' right to kill people who do not believe as they [moslems] believe.

Couldn't agree more, Y. However, those were only a small number of Muslims. The majority disagreed with their views and made that evident after the demonstration had finished. Right?

However, if you think they should be silenced then so should David Irving and Robert Spencer because they are inciting violence, right?

Quote:

This [below] generally expresses [and demonstrates graphically] the regard that all moslems have toward the right to Freedom of Speech.

IMAGE.....

All Muslims, Y? How do you know that? Have you canvassed all Muslims? Really? Or is this merely your prejudiced opinion? I know many Muslims and they definitely do believe in freedom of speech. Did you ask them? if not, why not?

Quote:

"Freedom of expression GO TO HELL!"

....that eventuality is not not possible.

Why so ?

Because HELL, will be the abode of ALL moslems.

Really? Well, apart from the fact I don't accept the existence of either heaven and hell, how do you know, Y? Have you visited hell and held a census? Or is this merely your usual prejudice and Islamophobia coming to the fore?

Quote:

And moslems and Freedom of Speech, cannot abide in the same house!

According to whom? You? You don't think you're a touch biased?

Tell me, what is your attitude towards Hindus? Buddhists? Jews? They all going to end up in hell as well? ::)

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Soren on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 8:33am

Can you give ONE example of Spencer inciting violence, Brain?

Also, what criticism of Islam is not 'islamophobic rant' in your eyes? Do you have an example?

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 8:45am

Soren wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 8:33am:

Can you give ONE example of Spencer inciting violence, Brain?

Also, what criticism of Islam is not 'islamophobic rant' in your eyes? Do you have an example?

You can’t criticize homos. That’s verboten.

Tabouli is fair game. Go for it.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 8:47am

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Yadda wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 7:48pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 6:22pm:

You seem to be contradicting yourself, Y.

Perhaps you need to go away and have a rethink of your position on the issue of Freedom of Speech? ::)

brian,

I am not contradicting myself.

Actually, you are, as I've demonstrated.

You HAVE NOT demonstrated a puppy dog.

You could not demonstrate your way out of a wet paper bag.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Lord Herbert on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 9:02am

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 9:45pm:

yes, but publically what can they say ?

"Currently there is a virulent form of Islam that is raging across the Middle East which has a certain delinquent appeal for some of our Muslim youths".

What these national leaders should not be saying is that what we're seeing has no relevance to Koranic text and the Islamic religion.

The many sects of the Christian religion differ in the emphasis they place upon certain text in the Bible, and in just the same way is ISIS a legitimate expression of Islam in that it finds its authority in certain text of Islam's sacred writings.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 9:19am

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Quote:

I know what my position on Freedom of Speech is.

Freedom of Speech, is good [where it is NOT abused, to include, for example, incitement to violence].

Excellent, excellent, Y. Well considered. I claim David Irving (who, unlike you, I have actually heard speak) and Robert Spencer (who I admit I haven't but going on what I've read) incite others to violence.

Therefore they don't deserve freedom of speech any more than those Muslims who incite others to violence, right?

Wrong again, brian.

Wrong.

Wrong.

Wrong.

Brian,

I have not heard, or read much of what David Irving has uttered.

But i am very familiar with what Robert Spencer has often stated, relating to what ISLAM is.

And i have NEVER, EVER, heard or read of Robert Spencer inciting violence against others.

WHEREAS;
Moslems who hear and read what Robert Spencer says, often go apoplectic, they [moslems] get angry, and they [moslems] choose murder people, because they [moslems] are angry.

Robert Spencer did not incite those moslems to violence.

If Robert Spencer told moslems that there are birds flying in the sky, they [moslems] would get angry[/u][/b], and they [moslems] would choose murder people, BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WANT TO LISTEN TO WHAT Robert Spencer HAS TO SAY ABOUT BIRDS FLYING IN THE SKY.

Brian,

Moslems, ALL MOSLEMS, ARE WANNA-BE MURDERS.

Murdering people makes moslems believe that they are fulfilling the reason for living.

Murdering people makes moslems happy - because all moslems are potential homicidal maniacs.

Surveys of moslem communities in the UK have recorded large percentages of the UK moslem community saying that any moslem who abandons ISLAM

Moslems, ALL MOSLEMS, ARE WANNA-BE MURDERS - killing people makes moslems believe that they are fulfilling the reason for living !!!!

IMAGE....

Happy moslems, because they are doing 'good works'.

Serving Allah's cause, by killing apostates.

MURDERING PEOPLE GIVES MOSLEMS A 'RELIGIOUS' THRILL.

IT IS BECAUSE MANY, MANY MOSLEMS ARE WANNA-BE HOMICIDAL MANIACS.

THAT IS WHAT ISLAM, PUTS INTO THE HUMAN PSYCHE.

IT IS WHAT ISLAM, PUTS INTO THE HEART OF EVERY HUMAN BEING WHO EMBRACES, ISLAM.

+++

Please watch this YT...

Mild mannered - Mohammed Morsi -
Ex-President of Egypt

"The Koran is our constitution"
"The Prophet Muhammad is our leader"
"Jihad is our path"
"AND DEATH FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH IS OUR MOST LOFTY ASPIRATION!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NtiUMOFFg

"What makes Allah happy?
Allah is happy, when kafir get killed."

Please watch this YT...
Muslims being deceptive Islam EX-Muslims goto 4m 30s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZx8cNSC9O0

Please watch this YT...
A UK moslem community leader, speaking of the London 7/7 bombing;

YT
KILLING OF NON-MUSLIMS IS LEGITIMATE
"...when we say innocent people, we mean moslems."
"....[not accepting ISLAM] is a crime against God."
"...If you are a non-moslem, then you are guilty of not believing in God."
"...as a moslem....i must have hatred towards everything which is non-ISLAM."
"...[moslems] allegiance is always with the moslems, so i will never condemn a moslem for what he does."
"...Britain has always been Dar al Harb [the Land of War]"
"...no, i could never condemn a moslem brother, i would never condemn a moslem brother. I will always stand with my moslem brother....whether he is an oppresser or the oppressed."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 9:24am

Yadda wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 9:19am:

MURDERING PEOPLE GIVES MOSLEMS A 'RELIGIOUS' THRILL.

IT IS BECAUSE MANY, MANY MOSLEMS ARE WANNA-BE HOMICIDAL MANIACS.

THAT IS WHAT ISLAM, PUTS INTO THE HUMAN PSYCHE.

IT IS WHAT ISLAM, PUTS INTO THE HEART OF EVERY HUMAN BEING WHO EMBRACES, ISLAM.

SUPPORTING EVIDENCE, FOR MY ASSERTION ABOVE.....

Quote:

Use children as troops, says cleric
January 18, 2007
SYDNEY'S most influential radical Muslim cleric has been caught on film calling Jews pigs and urging children to die for Allah.
Firebrand Sheik Feiz Mohammed, head of the Global Islamic Youth Centre in Liverpool [Australia], delivered the hateful rants on a collection of DVDs called the Death Series being sold in Australia and overseas.
.........Sheik Feiz says in the video.
"We want to have children and offer them as soldiers defending Islam. Teach them this: There is nothing more beloved to me than wanting to die as a mujahid (holy warrior). Put in their soft, tender hearts the zeal of jihad and a love of martyrdom."
An Australian citizen born in Sydney who has spent the past year living in Lebanon, Sheik Feiz was exposed this week in a British documentary Undercover Mosque.
......"The peak, the pinnacle, the crest, the highest point, the pivot, the summit of Islam is jihad," he declares in the film, before denouncing "kaffirs" (non-Muslims).
"Kaffir is the worst word ever written, a sign of infidelity, disbelief, filth, a sign of dirt."
......Sheik Feiz - who just two weeks ago said he felt like an "alien" in his own country - leads about 4000 followers through his Global Islamic Youth Centre in Sydney's southwest.
He also accused Australian authorities of being over-zealous in their approach to clerics like him.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21074839-2,00.html
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014863.phpiQuote:

Here, for example, are two very illuminating passages from the canonical Life of Mohammed by Ibn Ishaq, as translated by A. Guillaume, and a third passage, from the earliest known Muslim historian.

Ishaq: 204 - "'Men, do you know what you are pledging yourselves to in swearing allegiance to this man [Muhammad]?' 'Yes. In swearing allegiance to him we are pledging to wage war against all mankind.'"

Ishaq:231 - "Muslims are one ummah (community) to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders."

And here is Al-Tabari, a very early Muslim historian, in book 9, chapter or section 69, reporting words that Muslims believe to have been said by Mohammed himself - "Killing infidels is a small matter to us".

These texts are not fossils from a distant past. They are not dead letters. They are still 'live' and carry tremendous weight in the imagination and practice of many Muslims around the world.
...DDA

Google

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."
ISLAMIC religious scholar, Sayyid Qutb

ISLAMIC 'religious' doctrine, promotes, justifies and makes lawful, any violence and every death, during 'Jihad operations' conducted by the moslem in 'Allah's cause'.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 9:31am

Lord Herbert wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 9:02am:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 9:45pm:

yes, but publically what can they say ?

"Currently there is a virulent form of Islam that is raging across the Middle East which has a certain delinquent appeal for some of our Muslim youths".

What these national leaders should not be saying is that what we're seeing has no relevance to Koranic text and the Islamic religion.

The many sects of the Christian religion differ in the emphasis they place upon certain text in the Bible,

and in just the same way is ISIS a legitimate expression of Islam in that it finds its authority in certain text of Islam's sacred writings.

Herbert,

There is only one ISLAM, Koran.

FURTHER ASSERTIONS TO THIS FACT, in a recent YT video on this exact same issue.....

Bill Maher Battles Charlie Rose on Why Islam is More Dangerous than Other Religions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjInNxIwfRw

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 10:03am

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Quote:

Couldn't agree more, Y. However, those were only a small number of Muslims.

The majority disagreed with their views

and made that evident after the demonstration had finished. Right?

Brian,

PROVE IT.

Brian,

How can you prove if a person is speaking the truth or not ?

How can you tell what is in a persons heart ?

In my experience you can only do this by listening to what they speak, AND THEN, watching their behaviour, to see if the way that they behave, agrees with how they have previously spoken.

Quote:

However, if you think they should be silenced then so should David Irving and Robert Spencer because they are inciting violence, right?

Wrong!

I don't know about David Irving.

But i don't want to silence a person like Robert Spencer, because moslems choose to get apoplectic, whenever they hear him speak.

If - MURDEROUS - moslems don't want to HEAR what persons like Robert Spencer has to say then they should leave Australia.

That is my opinion.

IMAGE.....

"Freedom of expression GO TO HELL!"

IMO, moslems should - GO AWAY, LEAVE AUSTRALIA - and express such views, within a Sharia jurisdiction.
.....in a place where such views are appropriate.

THIS [image below] DOES NOT BELONG IN AUSTRALIA, ON 'THE AUSTRALIAN STREET'

'PROTESTATIONS' LIKE THESE [image below], BELONG ONLY WITHIN SHARIA JURISDICTIONS, imo.

IMAGE...

Sydney, 2012, moslem street protests.
Moslems, religious bigots, 'demonstrating', just how 'peaceful' and tolerant ISLAM and moslems really are - towards those who don't hold with the views ~~of ISIS~~ of ISLAM and moslems.

Moslems on a Sydney street, openly demanding their right to exercise their 'freedom of religion',
.....the 'religious' right to kill people who do not believe as they [moslems] believe.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Sprintcyclist on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 10:05am

Lord Herbert wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 9:02am:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 9:45pm:

yes, but publically what can they say ?

very good posting

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 10:21am

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Tell me, what is your attitude towards Hindus? Buddhists? Jews?

They are lovely people, who are on the path.

They are not moslems.

Quote:

They all going to end up in hell as well? ::)

God knows. ;)

All i know brian, is that all whoremongers [the unfaithful] and all liars, are for the hot place.

Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

God's word is true.

That is how i know, that not a single infidel [the unfaithful, aka as the 'moslem'] will be redeemed by God, from this place.

Psalms 119:103
How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Luke 1:79
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Hot Breath on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 12:33pm

This is Yadda defined. ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 1:34pm

Yadda wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 10:03am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Quote:

Couldn't agree more, Y. However, those were only a small number of Muslims.

The majority disagreed with their views

and made that evident after the demonstration had finished. Right?

Exactly. By his own measure, Y is a taqiyya-practicing jihadist.

Freeeedom, go to hell!

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Caliph adamant on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 1:42pm

|dev|null wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 12:33pm:

This is Yadda defined. ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

Just the same as you.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 7:43pm

Karnal wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 1:34pm:

Yadda wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 10:03am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Quote:

Couldn't agree more, Y. However, those were only a small number of Muslims.

The majority disagreed with their views

and made that evident after the demonstration had finished. Right?

Exactly. By his own measure, Y is a taqiyya-practicing jihadist.

Freeeedom, go to hell!

Freeeedom, go to hell!

Yes, K.

That is exactly what ISLAM calls for.

Moslems are those who submit to Allah.

And Allah calls for the murder of all non-moselms.

And the devout moslem works for his empowerment and his own opportunity to please Allah.

And our own political leaders, people like Tony Abbott, and Barrack Obama, and David Cameron ARE ACTUALLY FACILITATING THE RISE OF GROUPS LIKE ISIS.

ISIS is largely made up of moslem emigres who have from Western nations.

ISIS is a creature of the West's own making.

Give the gift of freedoms to moslems, and what you get is ISIS!

Empower moslems, and what you get is ISIS!

Idiot policy makers in teh West want to empower the members of a criminal organisation [ISLAM], moslems, with the freedoms which they [moslems] only know how to abuse - because that is what ISLAM has taught the moslem to do with political power and political freedom.

IMAGE.....

"Freedom of expression GO TO HELL!"

We [the nations of the Western hemisphere] are in this 'situation' [with ISIS] because Western political leaders and idiot policy makers even now, are refusing to associate ISLAM with the violence that is 'expressed' by moslems.

Quote:

UK immigration minister: Beheading of aid worker “nothing to do with Islam”
Sep 15, 2014

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/uk-immigration-minister-beheading-of-aid-worker-nothing-to-do-with-islam

Quote:

Islamic State threatens to kill British aid worker who thought his work for Muslim charity would save him
Robert Spencer Sep 15, 2014

This is one of the fundamental fallacies of the West’s entire approach to the global jihad.

Western analysts and policymakers persist in the delusion that their concessions and acts of kindness will meet with reciprocal acts of kindness from Islamic supremacists and jihadists.

This is not, in fact, the case. Instead, they’re just seen as signs of weakness, and regarded with contempt.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/islamic-state-threatens-to-kill-british-aid-worker-who-thought-his-work-for-muslim-charity-would-save-him

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Soren on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 10:41pm

|dev|null wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 12:33pm:

This is Yadda defined. ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

Why is it bigoted to disagree with an ideology?
Is it bigoted to think that Marxism is a crock, or that Scientology, woodoo, KKK complete nonsense and have had wholly negative effects on the world and anyone who fervently believe in these ideologies is fundamentally wrong?
Some people have that view of Islam and those fervently believe in it. They have well-formed reasons for their opposition.
Your bombastic parroting of 'bigot, bigot, bigot' just shows that you are utterly incapable of arguing for any of the good things that you may perceive in Islam. Tell us what good has it brought, how it makes the world a better place, rather than parrot that you have no clue.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 1:07am

Soren wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 8:33am:

Can you give ONE example of Spencer inciting violence, Brain?

Ask the UK Government, Soren. They're the ones who banned it from travelling to the UK.

Quote:

Also, what criticism of Islam is not 'islamophobic rant' in your eyes? Do you have an example?

When your criticism takes into account that Islam is not unique in many of the things you claim about it, Soren. There are no examples because you have never provided any. Gandalf has criticised Islam without being Islamophobic. You appear unable to. ::)

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 1:08am

Yadda wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 8:47am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Yadda wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 7:48pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 6:22pm:

You seem to be contradicting yourself, Y.

Perhaps you need to go away and have a rethink of your position on the issue of Freedom of Speech? ::)

brian,

I am not contradicting myself.

Actually, you are, as I've demonstrated.

You HAVE NOT demonstrated a puppy dog.

You could not demonstrate your way out of a wet paper bag.

Yes, Y, what ever you say. The rest of us who aren't delusional know differently. I demonstrated that you apply one rule for non-Muslims and another for Muslims. Tsk, tsk. Such rank hypocrisy. ::)

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 1:14am

Yadda wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 10:21am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Tell me, what is your attitude towards Hindus? Buddhists? Jews?

They are lovely people, who are on the path.

They are not moslems.

Nope, no bias there, none at all, Y. ::)

You do realise that many of the attitudes you ascribe to all Muslims pertain equally to Hindus and Orthodox Jews and even evangelical Christians, particularly their treatment of and attitude to, women? Yet, you've give them a "lovely people" card. ::)

Quote:

They all going to end up in hell as well? ::)

God knows. ;)
[/quote]

Who is God? ::)

Quote:

All i know brian, is that all whoremongers [the unfaithful] and all liars, are for the hot place.

Interesting that you describe Hell as "hot", Y. Did you know that the word "hell" derives from the Norse goddess of the underworld's name, "Hel"? Her underworld was a frozen hell. Interesting contrast, isn't it? ;D

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Soren on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 2:39am

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 1:07am:

Soren wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 8:33am:

Can you give ONE example of Spencer inciting violence, Brain?

Ask the UK Government, Soren. They're the ones who banned it from travelling to the UK.

I am asking you, Brain, as you asserted that he incites violence. He does not.

The Home Office was worried about 'intercommunity violence' - the kind we have seen in response to books, films, cartoons, in a word, ideas. And it isn't the Presbyterians that go apeshite about criticism of their ideology.

You throw around these kind accusations like a madwoman her underwear.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 9:53am

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 1:08am:

Yadda wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 8:47am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Yadda wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 7:48pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 6:22pm:

You seem to be contradicting yourself, Y.

Perhaps you need to go away and have a rethink of your position on the issue of Freedom of Speech? ::)

brian,

I am not contradicting myself.

Actually, you are, as I've demonstrated.

You HAVE NOT demonstrated a puppy dog.

You could not demonstrate your way out of a wet paper bag.

Yes, Y, what ever you say. The rest of us who aren't delusional know differently. I demonstrated that you apply one rule for non-Muslims and another for Muslims. Tsk, tsk. Such rank hypocrisy. ::)

Yes, BR, but Y's a Karmic Khristian.

He's forgiven.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 18^th, 2014 at 12:16am

Soren wrote on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 2:39am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 1:07am:

Soren wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 8:33am:

Can you give ONE example of Spencer inciting violence, Brain?

Ask the UK Government, Soren. They're the ones who banned it from travelling to the UK.

Soren, how do you think this presence, along with what he says, would cause "intercommunity violence" except by "inciting violence"? The British government ruling was sufficient for me. The man is obviously as bad as David Irving, fomenting intolerance and hatred. ::)

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Soren on Sep 18^th, 2014 at 3:02am

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 18^th, 2014 at 12:16am:

Soren wrote on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 2:39am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 1:07am:

Soren wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 8:33am:

Can you give ONE example of Spencer inciting violence, Brain?

Ask the UK Government, Soren. They're the ones who banned it from travelling to the UK.

Soren, how do you think this presence, along with what he says, would cause "intercommunity violence" except by "inciting violence"?

The same way cartoons in Denmark incite violence in the Muslim world, the same way videos on YouTube incite violence and can get you killed, as writing a book can send you into hiding from murderous muslims. Criticising Islam results in violence by the followers of the religion of peace.
Now there's a paradox.

Theresa May made the UK bow to that sort of threat of violence by Muslims, the threat of violent response to criticism by Spencer.

Your attempt to draw a parallel between Irvine and Spencer is, once again, absurd as is your attempt to compare either of them to Muslims who, unlike either of the two, incite violence and commit violence in response to the expression of ideas that criticise or ridicule or skewer Islam.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 18^th, 2014 at 11:07am

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 18^th, 2014 at 12:16am:

Soren wrote on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 2:39am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 1:07am:

Soren wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 8:33am:

Can you give ONE example of Spencer inciting violence, Brain?

Ask the UK Government, Soren. They're the ones who banned it from travelling to the UK.

Brian,

You are - NOT - describing Robert Spencer.

[Robert Spencer is merely a correspondent, who has described the intolerance and hatred which he has found, within ISLAM and within ISLAM's foundation texts.]

Brian,

IN YOUR POST, you are describing ISLAM, the philosophy which all moslems subscribe to.

....as is evidenced, below;

THE KORAN;[/b]

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

"...And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of [i.e. for] those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?...Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan:.."
Koran 4.74-76

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

"And fight with them until.....religion should be only for Allah,..."
Koran 2.193

"Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' ...."
hadithsunnah/bukhari #004.052.196

"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." - DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 18^th, 2014 at 8:11pm

Yadda wrote on Sep 18^th, 2014 at 11:07am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 18^th, 2014 at 12:16am:

Soren wrote on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 2:39am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 1:07am:

Soren wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 8:33am:

Can you give ONE example of Spencer inciting violence, Brain?

Ask the UK Government, Soren. They're the ones who banned it from travelling to the UK.

Brian,

You are - NOT - describing Robert Spencer.

Maybe I'm not, Y. Perhaps I should use the language that the article HB discovered uses? "Liar" springs to mind. As does "deceiver", fomenter of "intolerance and hatred", "Islamophobe", can you find any others in that article, Y?
[/quote]

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 21^st, 2014 at 8:38am

Last night i saw a TV news report of Julie Bishop addressing the Security Council, in New York.

I saw Julie Bishop 'dancing around the truth', but i saw Julie Bishop clearly refusing to 'touch the truth' !

In the TV news report Julie Bishop said that the terror suspects, that had been the subject of the raids by ASIO and Police in Sydney and Brisbane last week, were inspired by ISIS/IS [in Syria and Iraq] !!

That statement is a complete distortion of the truth of the matter.

The truth of the matter, is that this group of ISIS/IS members in Sydney and Brisbane are inspired to action - by ISLAM - by what the foundation texts of ISLAM teach to all moslems.

Which is enmity, and never ending warfare, against all disbelievers [e.g. all Australians]!

ISIS/IS and ISLAM, will never be defeated, thwarted, until persons in high office in this country, like Julie Bishop, are prepared to stop 'dancing around the truth' and are willing to confront what ISLAM is, and how ISLAM is inspiring these moslems.

And the truth is, that those terror suspects [who had been in communication with ISIS/IS cadres in Syria and Iraq], who had been subject of the raids by ASIO and Police in Sydney and Brisbane last week, were themselves, ISIS/IS cadres - WHO ARE LIVING WITHIN AUSTRALIA!

And the truth is, that those ISIS/IS cadres [in Sydney and Brisbane] are living within Australia [and are using Australia as a safe refuge!!!, courtesy of naive Australian citizens!!!], in exactly the same way that the 'Australian' members of ISIS/IS now resident in Syria and Iraq, also, once lived in Australia [and once, also, used Australia as a safe refuge]!

+++

THE NEVER-ENDING ENMITY [HATRED FOR] NON-MOSLEMS, WHICH ISLAM TEACHES TO THE MOSLEM [CHILD]

All devout moslems [including moslem children] know that moslems are obligated to eternal enmity towards 'disbelievers', and - ALL MOSLEMS KNOW - that the moslem is engaged in a never-ending 'religious' war against all non-moslems, and against all non-moslem jurisdictions.

e.g. HERE IS SOME OF THE 'INSPIRATION' FOR THAT WAR, FROM ISLAMIC SOURCES;

"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari #001.002.026

"As to the relationship between Muslims and infidels,.......Battle, animosity, and hatred -- directed from the Muslim to the infidel -- is the foundation of our religion....." ...Osama Bin Laden

November 10, 2008
Raymond Ibrahim: "Islam's Doctrines of Deception"

Quote:

"As to the relationship between Muslims and infidels, this is summarized by the Most High's Word: ‘We renounce you. Enmity and hate shall forever reign between us -- till you believe in Allah alone’ [Koran 60:4]. So there is an enmity, evidenced by fierce hostility from the heart. And this fierce hostility -- that is, battle -- ceases only if the infidel submits to the authority of Islam, or if his blood is forbidden from being shed [i.e., a dhimmi], or if Muslims are at that point in time weak and incapable [i.e., taqiyya]. But if the hate at any time extinguishes from the heart, this is great apostasy! Such, then, is the basis and foundation of the relationship between the infidel and the Muslim. Battle, animosity, and hatred -- directed from the Muslim to the infidel -- is the foundation of our religion. And we consider this a justice and kindness to them" (from The Al Qaeda Reader).
.....It bears repeating that this hostile world view is well supported by all of Islam’s schools of jurisprudence."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/11/raymond-ibrahim-islams-doctrines-of-deception.html

n.b. the words....

".....But if the hate at any time extinguishes from the heart, this is great apostasy!"

Translation....

If the hatred for non-moslems, at any time extinguishes from the heart of a moslem, "this is great apostasy!"

i.e.
The moslem can only be a sincere moslem, i.e. a REAL moslem, if he maintains a burning, never-ending HATRED [open or concealed] for all non-moslems.

!!!

AND, this never-ending and - lawful - HATRED by the moslem, for all non-moslems, is established and is given authority, within the inerrant Koran;

"There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone"....."
Koran 60:4

+++

Julie Bishop.

You are being poorly advised.

" The Prophet said, "War is deceit." "
hadith/bukhari/ #004.052.269

Moslems lying to, and deceiving 'disbelievers', is the 'soft' component of the moslem Jihad [religious fighting against 'disbelievers'].

And it is clear that many political leaders in the West, like Julie Bishop [because the have been persuaded to take 'advice' [about ISLAMIC 'issues'] from members of the moslem community!], are 'confused', about the true nature and the true character of ISLAM.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 21^st, 2014 at 12:31pm

::)

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Soren on Sep 21^st, 2014 at 1:40pm

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 18^th, 2014 at 8:11pm:

Yadda wrote on Sep 18^th, 2014 at 11:07am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 18^th, 2014 at 12:16am:

Soren wrote on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 2:39am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 17^th, 2014 at 1:07am:

Soren wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 8:33am:

Can you give ONE example of Spencer inciting violence, Brain?

Ask the UK Government, Soren. They're the ones who banned it from travelling to the UK.

Brian,

You are - NOT - describing Robert Spencer.

What makes that article more credible in your eyes than an article by Spencer?
I have not seen you refute anything he has said.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 21^st, 2014 at 6:22pm

Soren wrote on Sep 21^st, 2014 at 1:40pm:

What makes that article more credible in your eyes than an article by Spencer?

Perhaps because it critically examines what he says and does? Spencer making money out of your fear. Are you happy about that? Does it make you question his motives, even a little, Soren? ::)

Quote:

I have not seen you refute anything he has said.

Why should I? I am merely going by the determination of the UK Government, Soren. Take it up with them, I'd suggest. ::)

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by buzzanddidj on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 9:49pm

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Tell me, what is your attitude towards Hindus? Buddhists? Jews? They all going to end up in hell as well? ::)

A belief ONLY held by adherents of the Christian scriptures

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

JC
John 14:6

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 10:30pm

buzzanddidj wrote on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 9:49pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Tell me, what is your attitude towards Hindus? Buddhists? Jews? They all going to end up in hell as well? ::)

A belief ONLY held by adherents of the Christian scriptures

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

JC
John 14:6

Jesus is the truth.

No one comes to the Father except through the truth.

John 18:37
Jesus answered,......To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jesus is the manifestation of truth.

Truth, as the concept.

Of what is real.

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Do you believe that this world, is real ?

Men do.

LOL

This world is transitory.

But men know better.

:)

What is real ?

Truth.

'Realer' than this world!

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 10:44pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 10:05am:

Lord Herbert wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 9:02am:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 9:45pm:

yes, but publically what can they say ?

very good posting

Ver y good. And a lot of work has gone into it, too.

A question if I may, Y. If ISIS is so.Islamic, why has every Moslem organization in Australia come out to condemn it?

And why are 7 Moslem countries taking turns to bomb it?

Is it all just a cunning ruse? Is it an example of the much Googled Taqiyya?

I’m curious.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Sprintcyclist on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 10:54pm

buzzanddidj wrote on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 9:49pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Tell me, what is your attitude towards Hindus? Buddhists? Jews? They all going to end up in hell as well? ::)

A belief ONLY held by adherents of the Christian scriptures

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

JC
John 14:6

there's a bit more to it than that.
I am inferring that you are saying "only Christians go to heaven". If so, I disagree.

After death, a good buddist or agnostic can enter heaven via Jesus.

"you will be judged by what you have been given."

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 10:55pm

Yadda wrote on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 10:30pm:

buzzanddidj wrote on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 9:49pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Tell me, what is your attitude towards Hindus? Buddhists? Jews? They all going to end up in hell as well? ::)

A belief ONLY held by adherents of the Christian scriptures

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

JC
John 14:6

What is the truth ?

The truth is purity.

The truth is what is, holy.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1411518688/11#11

Quote:

When free men, give the gift of freedom to moslems, what you get back from moslems, is ISIS!

It is true! :)

Job 28:28
And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Proverbs 14:16
A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

Evil and truth, are incompatible.

ISLAM and truth, are incompatible.

Quote:

James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you....

Who is 'holy', and who is not holy ?

Who is vile, in God's eyes ?

Numbers 16:5
And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

Hmmmm.

The 'chosen' ones!

;D

I wonder what that could be alluding to ??? ;)

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Datalife on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 11:08pm

Karnal wrote on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 10:44pm:

A question if I may, Y. If ISIS is so.Islamic, why has every Moslem organization in Australia come out to condemn it?

And why are 7 Moslem countries taking turns to bomb it?

Is it all just a cunning ruse? Is it an example of the much Googled Taqiyya?

I’m curious.

You are not aware of the rich history of Muslims killing other Muslims? Never heard of enemy of my enemy and all that?

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 11:14pm

Karnal wrote on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 10:44pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 10:05am:

Lord Herbert wrote on Sep 16^th, 2014 at 9:02am:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 14^th, 2014 at 9:45pm:

yes, but publically what can they say ?

very good posting

Every ~~moslem~~ ISLAMIC group, is in competition with every other ISLAMIC group.

There have been wars among moslems, since 2 minutes after Mohammed died.

Hamas, ISIS, Taleban and Boko Haram, all proffer themselves to the 'moslem street', individually, as the true expression of ISLAM.

And so do the Saudis, and the Iranians.

The truth is that moslems form alliances, with those they hate, against those they hate even more!!!

ISIS and Al-Qaeda are COMPETITORS for the 'moslem street' !!!!!

The Saudis and Al-Qaeda are COMPETITORS for the 'moslem street' !!!!!

And so it is, with every moslem group.

Even moslem groups resident within Australia, tell us, that they are the true expression of ISLAM.

And if they had the means and the opportunity, those very moslem groups resident within Australia, would be slaughtering each other - AND US.

It is true! :)

WAKE UP.i

Quote:

Is it all just a cunning ruse? Is it an example of the much Googled Taqiyya?

I’m curious.

No.

You are a hater of what is true.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 11:24pm

Yadda wrote on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 11:14pm:

FOR EXAMPLE, look at the two distinct ISLAMIC groups that are at war with each other in Yemen, today.

Google;
yemen houthi

Google;
Shia insurgency in Yemen

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 11:39pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 10:54pm:

After death, a good buddist or agnostic can enter heaven via Jesus.

"you will be judged by what you have been given."

But not a good Muslim? How about a good Shintoist? Taoist? Animist? ::)

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 11:41pm

Yes, Y, but why are Moslem leaders saying ISIS is unIslamic?

This isn’t Tony Abbott, Barrak Obama and David Cameron. It’s Moslem leaders themselves.

I’m interested in the truth here. Are Moslems lying about what is Islamic?

I’d like to know what you think.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 11:56pm

Karnal wrote on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 11:41pm:

Yes, Y, but

why are Moslem leaders saying ISIS is unIslamic?

This isn’t Tony Abbott, Barrak Obama and David Cameron. It’s Moslem leaders themselves.

I’m interested in the truth here.

Are Moslems lying about what is Islamic?

I’d like to know what you think.

Hmmmmm.

It beats me, K!

I'm just a dumb non-moslem, who knows nothing about ISLAM, and about what moslems believe.

What do you think K ?

Mr Curious.

Is ISIS following Mohammed's example ????

Islamic State jihadis justify child marriage by invoking Muhammad’s example
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/islamic-state-jihadis-justify-child-marriage-by-invoking-muhammads-example

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 12:12am

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 10:54pm:

buzzanddidj wrote on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 9:49pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Tell me, what is your attitude towards Hindus? Buddhists? Jews? They all going to end up in hell as well? ::)

A belief ONLY held by adherents of the Christian scriptures

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

JC
John 14:6

I do think you’re right, Sprint. It makes no sense to me that someone who spent their whole life helping others and becoming wise and opening their hearts and minds to all that is great would be sent to hell for all eternity based on no more than an intellectual allegiance or a religious brand.

We might be petty. But God is great.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 12:21am

Yadda wrote on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 11:56pm:

Karnal wrote on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 11:41pm:

Yes, Y, but

why are Moslem leaders saying ISIS is unIslamic?

This isn’t Tony Abbott, Barrak Obama and David Cameron. It’s Moslem leaders themselves.

I’m interested in the truth here.

Are Moslems lying about what is Islamic?

I’d like to know what you think.

Hmmmmm.

It beats me, K!

I'm just a dumb non-moslem, who knows nothing about ISLAM, and about what moslems believe.

What do you think K ?

I think that if Moslems almost universally condemn ISIS and falsify their faatwas and engage in a military campaign to destroy it then maybe they think ISIS is unIslamic.

Unless, as a non-Moslem who knows nothing about Islam and about what Moslems believe, you speak on some form of authority within Islam.

It might be a bit close to call at this stage, Y.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 6:56am

Karnal wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 12:21am:

I think that if Moslems almost universally condemn ISIS

and falsify their faatwas and engage in a military campaign to destroy it then maybe they think ISIS is unIslamic.

Unless, as a non-Moslem who knows nothing about Islam and about what Moslems believe, you speak on some form of authority within Islam.

K,

Yeah.

I can see where you are coming from.

Keyser Trad said...

Quote:

“They [ISIS] have nothing to do with Islam,” he said. “No matter what they proclaim.”

“There is nothing holy about that war… Muslim leaders from all around the world have condemned that group as being a brutal bunch of thugs and murderers.”

“We should not give them labels they enjoy, we should just label them as brutal thugs and murderers – and this is what they are.”

“This group is not representative of Islam, they have nothing to do with Islam, they are just after their own political agenda,” Trad continued. “They are now using children which is very shocking and appalling… and deserves every condemnation.”

http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/does-isis-represent-islam/

Taqiyya
“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…”
google

K,

Google; Taqiyya

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1411000819/1#1

Quote:

Jordanian politician: Islamic State’s “doctrine stems from the Qur’an and Sunnah”… “There is no such thing as ‘ISIS ideology’ — it’s Islam”
Sep 10, 2014

Wherever Muhammad Bayoudh Al-Tamimi is located, he should expect a knock on his door, and Barack Obama, David Cameron, Philip Hammond, Yvette Cooper, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Rev. Professor David Thomas, and a host of other non-Muslims to walk in and explain to him that he is misunderstanding Islam, and that the Islamic State has nothing whatsoever to do with the genuine article.

.....There needs to be a public discussion about this dichotomy and how it came about, and whose position is better represented among Muslim populations worldwide, as well as in light of Islamic tradition, theology and law. But that would require some honesty and balance in the public square, which doesn’t appear to be on the horizon.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/jordanian-politician-islamic-states-doctrine-stems-from-the-quran-and-sunnah-there-is-no-such-thing-as-isis-ideology-its-islamiQuote:

It might be a bit close to call at this stage, Y.

Yeah, i see what you mean.

Amongst all of the moslem lies and the moslem deception, it is difficult to know, what it all means.

Isn't it, K !!!!!

But one thing is fer sure, K;

'ISLAM is peace!' :P

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 8:04am

Taqiyya, eh?

Do you mean they’re pretending to bomb ISIS?

I’m confused.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 8:40am

Karnal wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 8:04am:

Taqiyya, eh?

Do you mean they’re pretending to bomb ISIS?

I’m confused.

Mr Confused, eh ?

And here is me, Yadda, thinking that you, were Mr Curious.

Always remember, K.....

'ISLAM is peace!' :P

Within Australia...

06 May 2007
Mosque violence Tensions boil over after move to replace imam
Paul Maley
A BITTER factional feud within Canberra's Islamic community has erupted into violence with a leading member being punched repeatedly in the grounds of the mosque at Yarralumla.
Secretary of the ACT Islamic Society Kurt Kennedy said he was set upon shortly after announcing the appointment of a new imam to replace the controversial Mohammed Swaiti.
He was assaulted while waiting on the mosque grounds for a lift home after announcing Mr Swaiti had been dumped and naming the new imam as Yahya Atay.
......"When our secretary Kurt Kennedy announced ... the new imam will deliver the [Friday speech] before prayer, two people jumped up and grabbed Kurt and pushed him around," he told the Canberra Sunday Times.
"They pushed him and wanted to throw him out of the mosque.
"Then the imam [Mr Swaiti] started screaming in the middle of the mosque, 'I am the imam of this mosque! I am the imam who will service you people! I will never step down! No one can force me to step down! I will be here until the day I die!"'
http://canberra.yourguide.com.au/detail.asp?class=news&subclass=general&story_id=582042&category=General

Allah Akbar!!!! Allah Akbar!!!! Allah Akbar!!!!

Outspoken Muslim seeks police protection [after he received threats from, ....muslims]

March 22, 2007
One of Australia's most important Muslim leaders has sought police protection after criticising controversial cleric Sheikh Taj al-Din al-Hilali.
Tom Zreika, president of the Lebanese Muslim Association - and Sheikh Hilali's employer - said he received non-stop phone threats yesterday after he released a document urging greater integration and for Muslims to "mend their ways".
The report, prepared for a national meeting of imams in Sydney this weekend, says some Muslims are "ruining it" for all and that Australians have "had enough" of Muslims.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/outspoken-muslim-seeks-police-protection/2007/03/21/1174153164032.html

The links are old, but these news reports are kosher.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 8:45am

Karnal wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 8:04am:

Taqiyya, eh?

Do you mean they’re pretending to bomb ISIS?

I’m confused.

K, Mr Confused.

You should convert, to ISLAM.

Then you won't be confused, any more.

;)

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 10:33am

Yadda wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 8:40am:

Karnal wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 8:04am:

Taqiyya, eh?

Do you mean they’re pretending to bomb ISIS?

I’m confused.

Thanks Y, but your article predates the creation of ISIS.

I'd like to ask again - how is bombing ISIS an act of Taqiyya? Surely I don't need to convert to Islam to find this out.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Hot Breath on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 12:08pm

Yadda wrote on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 11:56pm:

Karnal wrote on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 11:41pm:

Yes, Y, but

why are Moslem leaders saying ISIS is unIslamic?

This isn’t Tony Abbott, Barrak Obama and David Cameron. It’s Moslem leaders themselves.

I’m interested in the truth here.

Are Moslems lying about what is Islamic?

I’d like to know what you think.

Hmmmmm.

It beats me, K!

I'm just a dumb non-moslem, who knows nothing about ISLAM, and about what moslems believe.

Yet, you're always telling us the reverse, Yadda. Why? ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 1:07pm

Now I’m even more confused, Y. Your evidence about ISIS being Islamic contains nothing about ISIS at all.

Is there something I’m missing here?

I’m still curious, but confused as well. Any chance you could fill me in?

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by freediver on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 1:54pm

Karnal wrote on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 11:41pm:

ISIS' first priority - above destroying Israel even - is to get rid of the hypocrits among them. Calling other Muslims unIslamic and trying to kill them for it is part and parcel of Islam. Even Muhammed did it.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 2:33pm

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 1:54pm:

Karnal wrote on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 11:41pm:

Thanks for answering the question, FD. Is this our sole criterion for ISIS being Islamic, despite what the Australian Muslim leaders are saying and what actual Islamic states are doing to prevent them?

If so, could we say Tony Abbott, Barrack Obama and David Cameron are Islamic too?

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by freediver on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 5:57pm

Quote:

Is this our sole criterion

I was pointing out that it is not a criterion at all.

This movement sprung out of nothing. It spread because it is popular among Muslims. It spread because it's claim to Islam is accepted by so many Muslims. It has appeal to Muslims all over the world, including about 100 Australian Muslims who were willing to go to the ultimate length because of the religious appeal.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 8:58pm

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 5:57pm:

Quote:

Is this our sole criterion

So you’re saying ISIL are unIslamic, but supported by Muslims?

I’m confused again.

Is this a bit like how Uncle’s experiments with Freeedom are not technically Freee, but supported by Christians?

This stuff’s hard.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by freediver on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 9:31pm

The actions of ISIL are closer to the example set by Muhammed than any Australian Muslim community leaders. Flying to the other side of the world to join a war that has nothing to do with you on behalf of an organisation that did not even exist until recently speaks louder than anything those leaders have said.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 9:32pm

K, Mr Confused.

ISIS, or BOKO HARAM, or Al-Nusra, or Al-Qaeda, etc, etc, etc, are all 'symbols' for the same thing.

They are 'attractants' and 'identifiers', for the followers of ISLAM, aka, moslems.

Simple.

See.

Just like the Moslem Brotherhood, and Ex-President of Egypt Morsi of Egypt, are also 'attractants' for the followers of ISLAM, aka, moslems.

Mild mannered - Mohammed Morsi -
Ex-President of Egypt

"The Koran is our constitution"
"The Prophet Muhammad is our leader"
"Jihad is our path"
"AND DEATH FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH IS OUR MOST LOFTY ASPIRATION!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NtiUMOFFg

K, Mr Confused,

QUESTION;
Does imbecility, run in the genes of your family ?

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 10:02pm

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 9:31pm:

Yes, FD, but don’t you usually use the Saudis as the model of the true Islamic state?

Plenty of Muslims go over there too.

I wonder if they’ll be arrested under our new anti-terror laws.

Muhammed, by the way, hasn’t yet come out to support ISIS.

What do you think, Y? Should the Moslems returning from the Haj be detained?

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 10:05pm

Yadda wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 9:32pm:

The Moslems put him in jail, Y.

Does he support ISIS? Are you going to quote any Moslem leaders who support ISIS?

I’m Mr Confused, but you can call me K.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by freediver on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 10:13pm

Karnal wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 10:02pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 9:31pm:

Yes, FD, but don’t you usually use the Saudis as the model of the true Islamic state?

No.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 10:27pm

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 10:13pm:

Karnal wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 10:02pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 9:31pm:

Yes, FD, but don’t you usually use the Saudis as the model of the true Islamic state?

No.

Jordon? Qatar? Bahrain?

No?

Ah - you must be a UAE man. You like to stop over in Qatar for a few days to get your suits made.

Freeedom, eh?

Marvellous stuff.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Soren on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 12:18am

Karnal wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 10:27pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 10:13pm:

Karnal wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 10:02pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 9:31pm:

Yes, FD, but don’t you usually use the Saudis as the model of the true Islamic state?

No.

Jordon? Qatar? Bahrain?

No?

Ah - you must be a UAE man. You like to stop over in Qatar for a few days to get your suits made.

Freeedom, eh?

Marvellous stuff.

When your stupid excuses are shot down one by one you finally go into your idiotic irony mongering, PB.
But your your sh*t-eating grin is obvious behind the wanky attempts of too-clever irony.

IS is Islamic. Islam is not the root of all evil - but for these and other Muslim terrrorist organisations and their supporters, Islam IS the justification for what they believe, say and do. These are specific instructions for war, oppression, harshness, enslavement, mistreatment, hatred and cruelty in the Koran and hadiths that these terrorists are following to the letter. There is no misinterpretation of those parts of Islam at all.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 12:31am

Soren wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 12:18am:

IS is Islamic. Islam is not the root of all evil - but for these and other Muslim terrrorist organisations and their supporters, Islam IS the justification for what they believe, say and do. These are specific instructions for war, oppression, harshness, enslavement, mistreatment, hatred and cruelty in the Koran and hadiths that these terrorists are following to the letter. There is no misinterpretation of those parts of Islam at all.

You still keep assuming there is only one valid interpretation of Islam and IS is the one who understands it, like you do, Soren. ::)

You and they seek to either just ignore or prefer to eliminate all other interpretations. For you, they are inconvenient, they prevent you being able to argue against one convenient interpretation (which is invariably the worst one imaginable). For IS, the alternatives are competitors and offends their vision of a "pure" Islam. As I keep pointing out, your willingness to accept the IS or any other extremist Islamist interpretation suggests you'd fit in quite happily with their views. For you, like them, their view is Islam. This is good Takfiri thinking.

Which Madrassah did you graduate from again? ::)

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Soren on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 12:56am

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

Soren wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 12:18am:

There are many interpretations of Islam.
The point is that the terrorists’ interpretation is completely valid. It is not a misinterpretation at all. Many might squirm and dislike it. But it is a completely valid reading of Islam. You may dislike it but you cannot prove that it is not valid. If anything, it has far more consistency with the texts and historical evidence than the milksop of ’religion of peace’ nonsense.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 10:35am

Soren wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 12:18am:

Karnal wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 10:27pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 10:13pm:

Karnal wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 10:02pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 9:31pm:

Yes, FD, but don’t you usually use the Saudis as the model of the true Islamic state?

No.

Jordon? Qatar? Bahrain?

No?

Ah - you must be a UAE man. You like to stop over in Qatar for a few days to get your suits made.

Freeedom, eh?

Marvellous stuff.

IS is Islamic in the same way Jim Jones was Christian - worse. No one's making excuses for IS here, old boy, not a sausage.

Y has started a thread to show that the "ISIS is not ISLAMIC claim is being ridiculed". And yet, we now have a full assault on ISIL from 5 Muslim countries and every national Muslim leader around the world condemning it in the strongest of terms. The Saudis, Iran, the lot. On Lateline, the Indonesian foreign minister was clear that ISIL are a parody of Islam, and their practices are completely against Islamic teachings and principles. He said that ISIL are "anti-Islam".

Muslim leaders in Australia have said ISIL do not represent Islam and do not speak for them. Muslim leaders say they are doing everything in their power to prevent young people from leaving to fight for ISIL. Most have made public statements condemning ISIL and given lengthy media interviews stating how ISIL do not represent Islam, are breaking Islamic laws teachings, and are just plain mean.

So you tell me: how is the claim that ISIS is not ISLAMIC being ridiculed?

Y's providing old quotes about everything BUT ISIL. FD's giving the old obeying their sinister prophet excuse.

But Muhammed didn't say anything about ISIL either.

You tell me, old boy - who exactly is ridiculing such a claim? Y's not saying ISIL are a bunch of meanies that need to be taken out - and if he did, he would be supported by all those Muslim leaders.

Y's saying he has all this proof from the words of Muslims themselves why ISIL are gen-u-wine Muslims.

So where is it?

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 10:43am

Old boy wrote:
Quote:

These are specific instructions for war, oppression, harshness, enslavement, mistreatment, hatred and cruelty in the Koran and hadiths that these terrorists are following to the letter. There is no misinterpretation of those parts of Islam at all.

Here's your opportunity to shine, dear boy. Show us all how this claim is backed up by Muslim world and Australian leaders. Show us how, rather than condemning ISIL for the exact opposite of what you say, they're backing ISIL as doing the work of Allah.

Your time starts now.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Soren on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 12:41pm

I have not heard anyone saying that the justifications IS are quoting from the Koran are not in the Koran.The subject is simply ignored. Nobody mentions Houses of War and Peace, nor the slay them this way and that,, the cut their necks stuff, the idolators and apostates, the final triumph of Islam when the trees even will give up the jehud to the muslims to be killed.
Nobody mentions this because you can be killed even for novels, cartoons, youtube vids. But fearing muslim violence doesn’t make islam a religion of peace.
Abbott got into rouble even for suggesting that muslims should be loyal to Australia and not to overseas religio-political entities.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by gandalf on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 12:52pm

its futile K - even if they acknowledge your obvious point, they will just leapfrog to the standard "ISIS are counter-productive to islam's undeniable violent intent" argument. Even though it is an interpretation held by a tiny minority of muslims.

Terrorists are in the clear minority - but they are still the "proper" muslims - because Muhammad did terrorism - even though that interpretation of Muhammad is a minority interpretation amongst muslims. FD thinks the majority interpretation of peaceful islam is really called "making excuses" - as if that somehow makes a difference to the end result (that most muslims reject violence). You just can't appeal to logic.

They're argument has not a leg to stand on, but they will power on with it regardless - incessently.

Its completely futile.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 1:09pm

Soren wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 12:41pm:

I have not heard anyone saying that the justifications IS are quoting from the Koran are not in the Koran.The subject is simply ignored.

The question of this thread is not whether the actions of ISIL are justified using the Koran - they most certainly are. This thread discusses Obama's claim that ISIS is not truly Islamic - a claim was that also made by Tony Abbott in a meeting of the Security Council yesterday.

And it's a claim that has been authorized by every influential Muslim country with both condemnations of ISIS and military support. In Australia, Muslim leaders have done just the same - declaring ISIS to be unIslamic based on its statements and its actions.

This is important. If we're to stop Australian Muslims from joining ISIS, surely this is a claim you would support. If we're to defeat ISIS militarily, surely a coalition of Arab Muslim states is the best possible way to do it. And if we're to prevent the toxic values of ISIL spreading throughout the world, surely the way to do it is for Muslims to reinforce the most benign possible interpretation of their faith.

After all, how many times have you called for Muslims to stand up against the extremists in their ranks? Never ever?

Quote:

When your stupid excuses are shot down one by one you finally go into your idiotic irony mongering, PB.

I'm still waiting for you to shoot down my "excuse", which merely paraphrases what Obama, Abbott, Muslim government and local Muslim relgious and community leaders have already said. Your latest?

Quote:

Nobody mentions Houses of War and Peace, nor the slay them this way and that,, the cut their necks stuff, the idolators and apostates, the final triumph of Islam when the trees even will give up the jehud to the muslims to be killed.

Going for a job in the UN, are you, old chap?

Sound to me as if you’d be happier working for ISIL.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Soren on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 1:26pm

Gandy, the main point is NOT whether IS is fully embraced by 10 or 20 % of muslim and some of their views by another 90 (ie ultimately blaming the west).

The point is that nobody is addressing why or how their interpretations of the violent passages of the koran and mohammed’s exmple are invalid.
To do that you would have to effectively abrogate the later (violent) verses of the koran (which themselves abrogate, superced the earlier peaceful verses ’received’ while the muslims were weak). But there is nothing to authoritatively allow you to ignore as invalid these later, violent verses and mohammed’s record.
The West is identified as the opponent of islam, something islam needs to overcome. As are idolators (hindus, buddhists), apostates (shia, alawites, sufis, etc).

The IS actions may disgust muslims but you nobody has demonstrated that their ideology is not fully justified and underpinned by islamic theology and history. This is not unprecedented in islam - quite the contrary. It was never argued into oblivion and isn’t now because you hve no coherent way to demonstrate that it is nt valid.
This is why the issue is avoided by muslims.

PB.
Declaring something unislamic does not prove that the koranic justifications are invalid.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 1:36pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 12:52pm:

No no, G, we must stay positive. I, for one, think the old boy’s got it in him to provide one shred of evidence for his hysterical never-ever claims. One will do, and I can then say my job is done.

FD, on the other hand, is pointless. He gave up when Abu left, mainly because Abu gave him all the answers.

I must say, it’s inspiring to see Moses try. He usually just does hissy fits in the old boy style. It’s good to see him opening up to a critical appraisal of the texts he’s always mentioning. In an ideal world, a thread like that could cover a lot of ground. Here, it will just be drowned out in hysterical tanties and tears before bedtime. I give it another page.

You’ve gotta have a dream, no?

Ban them.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Soren on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 1:56pm

How are the violent passages of koran misunderstood by IS? Please explanin or link to an explanation.

With the handy doctrine of abrogation (discovered by mohammed when he suddenly found himself in power over others) allows musslims to respond to any koranic quote with one that says the opposite. Because it is so incoherent, the koran can be deployed to almost any purpose.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 2:19pm

Soren wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 1:26pm:

Declaring something unIlamic is based on some insight into the totality of Islamic teachings.

The chap your Lutheran prophet based his teachings on said that he came not to bring peace, but a sword.

And yet, no one could seriously claim.that Christianity is about beheading people or eradicating peace. Nor is anyone condemning Christianity (or the West) for the millions killed in the wars of the past century - wars supported by a majority of Australians (and Christians) who went overseas to fight.

No one is blaming Germany for the "Teutonic" ideology of National Socialism or Russia for Bolshevism. No one is even blaming Catholicism or Anglicanism for very recent struggles in the UK. There is a nice little out in Christianity that I find quite appropriate: Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven.

Yeheshua, after all, would have them turn the other cheek.

Islam is different to Christianity. It started as a spiritually-inspired movement to unite warring Arab tribes. It later became a world religion. Islam does not proscribe the cheek-turning pacifism Christ taught (but few Christians follow).

But nor does Islam preach violence, genocide or forced conversion to Islam. In the other thread, I’m patiently waiting on a reply to a question on the nature of jihad. I doubt I’ll get an answer. So far, none of the quotes I’ve read in that thread advocate murder. Having never read it, I was under the impression that the Koran is much more violent than it actually reads. From what I see, it talks largely about a struggle to submit to God. It reads to me as a seventh century self-help book for warring Arabs - which is the prevailing view of mainstream and scholarly writing on Islam.

ISIL do not conform to that view, and mainstream Muslims around the world condemn them. I would have thought this would be a good thing, but no - it does not conform to never-ever, so we must continue the ongoing crusade purely to justify a stubborn point of view.

Always, absolutely, never ever - except when it’s not.

Oh brave new world with such wondrous things in it.

I think it’s a jolly world, but that’s just me.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by gandalf on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 2:26pm

Soren wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 1:26pm:

The point is that nobody is addressing why or how their interpretations of the violent passages of the koran and mohammed’s exmple are invalid.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1411629874/9#9

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 2:36pm

Soren wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 1:56pm:

How are the violent passages of koran misunderstood by IS? Please explanin or link to an explanation.

You go first, old chap. Provide the quote and we’ll try to make some sense of it.

I must say, however, this is a pretty intellectual game when Muslim world leaders (and their bombs) have already spoken. Marty Natalagawa, for example, didn’t quote the Koran when he was condemning ISIL as anti-Islam and anti-peace. He is, after all, the Indonesian foreign affairs minister, not an imam.

I’m always up for a bit of fun, so feel free to proceed with quotes. Maybe G can help to explain them.

The view he expressed in his link above is pretty common. It’s shared among Western religion scholars and Muslims themselves. As G argues, it certainly makes more sense to interpret peace as peace rather than peace as war.

But that’s just me.

Over to you, old boy.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by freediver on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 2:48pm

Quote:

On Lateline, the Indonesian foreign minister was clear that ISIL are a parody of Islam

Yes, Islam is often associated with a rich sense of humour.

Quote:

Muslim leaders say they are doing everything in their power to prevent young people from leaving to fight for ISIL.

Such as complaining about the police's anti-terorism efforts? That's sure to get the Muslim community onboard isn't it?

Quote:

Even though it is an interpretation held by a tiny minority of muslims.

What sort of minority are we talking about Gandalf?

Quote:

Nor is anyone condemning Christianity (or the West) for the millions killed in the wars of the past century - wars supported by a majority of Australians (and Christians) who went overseas to fight.

Not even Brian, HB and the other apologists?

Quote:

But nor does Islam preach violence, genocide or forced conversion to Islam.

This is what Muhammed said to the Jewish tribe he ended up slaughtering

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qaynuqa

O Jews, beware lest God bring on you the like of the retribution which he brought on Quraysh. Accept Islam, for you know that I am a prophet sent by God. You will find this in your scriptures and in God's covenant with you.

Apparently a small number escaped the head hackers by converting to Islam.

Quote:

ISIL do not conform to that view

They conform to the example set by Muhammed.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Soren on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 3:13pm

Karnal wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 2:36pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 1:56pm:

How are the violent passages of koran misunderstood by IS? Please explanin or link to an explanation.

Nobody is asking that of anyone.
what is asked is that the IS use of the violent koranic verses and violent examples of mohammed be shown to actually be unislamic.

It turns, to a large extent, on what is taken to be the enemy of islam. Because islam has a very clear and detailed doctrine about fighting those who oppress or oppose islam.
The vast majority of the ’peaceful, law-abiding, etc’ muslims believe that the west opposes and oppresses islam. If you take that victimhood seriously, your reaction to the west will depend on your temperament, and will range from niqabs, hizb ul tahrir agitation and denouncing and resisting calls for being a team, to financial and armed support of those who are resisting the west by committing terrorist acts, from the taliban, al qaida to hamas, jamaa al islamiya to IS.
What the muslim and non-muslim leaders in the west are unable to say is that islam and the west are and have always been at loggerheads. In islamic countries they say it, in the west they are biting their tongues.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by freediver on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 3:16pm

Not always. According to Abu, the west has been at war with the Muslim world for about a century. I didn't ask about before then, but that may have been war also.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 4:49pm

Soren wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 3:13pm:

Karnal wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 2:36pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 1:56pm:

How are the violent passages of koran misunderstood by IS? Please explanin or link to an explanation.

Nobody is asking that of anyone.
what is asked is that the IS use of the violent koranic verses and violent examples of mohammed be shown to actually be unislamic.

Sorry, I'm not quite clear what you're saying. Are you saying IS are taking verses out of context?

I'm confused.

Now. Onto the versus. Here you are telling us how bad they are. Time to discuss them.

Quote them, old boy. Pass stool, as they say, or get off the pot.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 4:50pm

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 3:16pm:

Not always. According to Abu...

Oh, I know.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by gandalf on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 4:51pm

Personally I haven't heard anyone from ISIS quoting the Quran.

I have heard a report they are attempting to edit some bits out though.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 4:56pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 4:51pm:

Personally I haven't heard anyone from ISIS quoting the Quran.

I have heard a report they are attempting to edit some bits out though.

Ah yes, of course.

Old boy, which parts of the Quran order its adherents to take stuff out?

I'm curious.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 6:16pm

Muslim Scholars To ISIS: You Have Misinterpreted Islam. They obviously got that wrong. Soren, Freediver, et al have corrected that misapprehension of theirs, now haven't they? IS is Islamic! ::)

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 8:11pm

[tr][/tr]
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 6:16pm:

Muslim Scholars To ISIS: You Have Misinterpreted Islam. They obviously got that wrong. Soren, Freediver, et al have corrected that misapprehension of theirs, now haven't they? IS is Islamic! ::)

Yes, but those 120 Muslim.scholars clearly haven’t read FD’s posts paraphrasing Abu.

Personally, I think FD has a duty to set the record straight and publish his own open letter.

The stakes here are high. The fate of Freeedom may well rest in the balance.

FD?

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by gandalf on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 8:51pm

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 6:16pm:

Muslim Scholars To ISIS: You Have Misinterpreted Islam.

Yes, but this is clearly not a "critical evaluation".

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Soren on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 8:55pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 8:51pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 6:16pm:

Muslim Scholars To ISIS: You Have Misinterpreted Islam.

Yes, but this is clearly not a "critical evaluation".

Indeed, a press release is not.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 9:17pm

Soren wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 8:55pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 8:51pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 6:16pm:

Muslim Scholars To ISIS: You Have Misinterpreted Islam.

Yes, but this is clearly not a "critical evaluation".

Indeed, a press release is not.

You don’t want to.post your little quotes, old chap?

I understand.

You don’t know any.

Carry on!

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 9:26pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 8:51pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 6:16pm:

Muslim Scholars To ISIS: You Have Misinterpreted Islam.

Yes, but this is clearly not a "critical evaluation".

Clearly not, gandalf.

......when the facts are;

That Numan Haider was a young moslem Australian.

And that Numan Haider was a young moslem Australian, who was 'clearly' one, among many moslems in Australia, who are followers of 'the ISLAM' that is promoted by ISIS.

Today, Numan Haider is dead.

And today, i have not heard even one person in the moslem community, in Australia, refer to Numan Haider as an 'extremist'.

Why not ?

Today, Numan Haider is being described by many moslems in Australia as a Shaheed [i.e. as an ISLAMIC warrior who has died fighting infidels].

Sheik Google;
Numan Haider praised as a Shaheed

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 9:46pm

Which Moslem communities have you been frequenting today, Y?

I’m curious.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 10:02pm

Karnal wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 9:46pm:

Which Moslem communities have you been frequenting today, Y?

I’m curious.

Ah, you want to track my online 'footsteps' ?

That would possibly identify who i am ?

ASIO know who i am.

:)

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by buzzanddidj on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 10:37pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 10:54pm:

buzzanddidj wrote on Sep 24^th, 2014 at 9:49pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Tell me, what is your attitude towards Hindus? Buddhists? Jews? They all going to end up in hell as well? ::)

A belief ONLY held by adherents of the Christian scriptures

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

JC
John 14:6

there's a bit more to it than that.

I am inferring that you are saying "only Christians go to heaven"
If so, I disagree.

After death, a good Buddhist or agnostic can enter heaven via Jesus.

You seem to know your "stuff"

What about the racist, homophobic, intolerant, hate filled bigot - who knows nothing of true Christian morals, ethics and values - but ticks the "Christian" box on the census form

Will he/she go to heaven ?

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Soren on Sep 27^th, 2014 at 8:05am

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/beheading-infidels-how-allah-heals-the-hearts-of-believers/

http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2014/09/04/satloff-family-spokespersons-pathetic-challenge-to-is-caliph-al-baghdadis-jihad-orthodoxy/#more-5707
Explore the rest of the articles on these two sites.

Listen while exploring
http://miltrosenberg.com/show/is-terrorist-mass-murder-now-the-default-position-for-radical-islam/

Karnal wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 4:49pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 3:13pm:

Karnal wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 2:36pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 1:56pm:

How are the violent passages of koran misunderstood by IS? Please explanin or link to an explanation.

Nobody is asking that of anyone.
what is asked is that the IS use of the violent koranic verses and violent examples of mohammed be shown to actually be unislamic.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Sep 27^th, 2014 at 10:42am

Karnal wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 1:09pm:

The question of this thread is not whether the actions of ISIL are justified using the Koran - they most certainly are.

This thread discusses Obama's claim that ISIS is not truly Islamic - a claim was that also made by Tony Abbott in a meeting of the Security Council yesterday.

And it's a claim that has been authorized by every influential Muslim country with both condemnations of ISIS and military support.

In Australia, Muslim leaders have done just the same - declaring ISIS to be unIslamic based on its statements and its actions.

Do the constraints and the actions [e.g. hostility towards disbelievers within the caliphate] and the law [Sharia] of the caliphate [i.e. ISIS in Syria and Iraq] align with Allah's will [i.e. as expressed through the Koran] ???

Each of us should seek out and examine the evidence....

source....
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/the-islamic-state-vs-the-quran

+++

Yadda wrote on Sep 15^th, 2014 at 7:09pm:

Cameron on Islamic State’s claim to be Islamic: “Nonsense, Islam is a religion of peace”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/cameron-on-islamic-states-claim-to-be-islamic-nonsense-islam-is-a-religion-of-peace

David Cameron is absolutely wrong in what he is declaring.

And history will record the politicians of this age [and all political leaders of this age, like David Cameron], to be self-serving [cowardly] worms.

With regard to ISLAM, and with regard to ISLAM's [intentional] malevolent intent towards ALL persons who are not moslems,...
American citizens are coming to see how the wool is being pulled over their eyes, by their own political leaders, in regards to what ISLAM is.......

Watch the YTube.....

Bill Maher Battles Charlie Rose on Why Islam is More Dangerous than Other Religions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjInNxIwfRw

SOURCE DOCUMENT, for Bill Maher / Charlie Rose YT....
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/bill-maher-to-claim-that-islam-is-like-other-religions-is-just-naive-and-plain-wrong

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 27^th, 2014 at 1:47pm

Why do we call it ‘Islamic State’?

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 27^th, 2014 at 3:31pm

Yadda wrote on Sep 27^th, 2014 at 10:42am:

Karnal wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 1:09pm:

A good reference, Y. Finally, after all these years, you’re getting to the bottom of your claims. And they are compelling. They are, I believe, the verses ISIL and other fundamentalists use to justify their carnage.

But they’re not contextualised. They’re the battle cries of a community leader in a besieged city. They are calls for self-defence in a specific time and place. They do not justify ISIL’s forced conversions and genocide. No doubt ISIL use such quotes as justification, but they don’t square with the rest of the Quran, a book ISIL have attempted to edit to reframe the above quotes and justify their grab for brutal, worldly supremacy.

I’m not saying this, Muslim leaders themselves are saying it. To attempt to justify torture, killing and forced conversion of defenceless civilians is against Islamic teachings taken from the Quran. It’s a mockery of Islam as Muslim leaders themselves argue. The entire literalist tradition is against Islam. Applying 8th century battles to modern life is useful only as a metaphorical reference point. Again, not me, but Muslims themselves. Muslims have, almost universally, condemned the actions of ISIL. Muslim states have distanced themselves and their foreign.policy using the clearest possible terms. Five Muslim states have engaged in air strikes. A ground war, I believe, is almost inevitable.

Who’s right?

I would think most people would support mainstream Muslims in what now appears to be a clash within Islam itself. This isn’t Sunni verses Shi’ite, but those divisions are relevant. It’s a battle between dumb, literalist fundamentalism and peace. It’s not for me to pick a side, but I know which side I’d like to succeed.

You?

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by freediver on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 8:38am

Muhammed himself used torture. They lit a fire on a Jews stomach to force him to reveal the location of the Jew gold. After he died, Muhammed took his wife as a concubine.

After those calls for self defence, Muhammed slaughtered an entire tribe of Jews. Apparently some escaped and converted to Islam, completely unforced of course.

Tell me Karnal, is the Islamic state under siege? Is there an existential threat to it? Why are those verses appropriate for Muhammed's Islamic state under siege but not for the modern Islamic state under siege? If Muhammed's warmongering is only to be taken as a metaphor, what are modern Muslims to use a guide when they are actually at war trying to establish a Caliphate?

Quote:

I would think most people would support mainstream Muslims in what now appears to be a clash within Islam itself.

The only clash I see is between Muslims and non-Muslims over the PR fallout from the Islamic state. Australian Muslims are too busy denying it has anything to do with Islam and getting in the way of the police to actually take on the extremists.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 9:47am

I just read your WikiIslam piece. Good writing.

But it made me realize that you really do believe these crackpot ideas. You’re on exactly the same page as Yadda, and all from.a chat with one Muslim: Abu.

It’s all in your piece - Abu’s take on Western imperialism, Abu’s fundamentalism, and even Abu ignoring you when.you became too much.

Your take on a people from dozens of different ethnicities, languages and countries comes down to the views of Abu. Have you ever been to a Muslim country? Eaten with a Muslim family? Been to a Muslim school or mosque?

Your entire world view on Muslims lacks the insight learned from experience. It’s an internet thing - just like all those kids going off to join the headhackers. If you knew any Muslims or went to any mosques, you’d find out that they’re very tame, conservative places. The sermons are just as boring as the Anglican or Catholic ones. Radical Islam is so far from the mosques and family life of Australian Muslims, it’s hilarious to hear your Yadda-like take on Islam. It’s so far from the truth.

Anyway, something tells me you enjoy having a threat to Freeedom, so I won’t try to stop you having a good time. If you really wanted to know more about the source of Islam (the Jew’s gold, etc), you’d pick out a few books and get cracking, but you don’t. You’re happy to trot out a story you read years ago on the internet. You’re happy to have Abu. And you’re happy to cover up your lack of insight with the same old myths, rumours and Abu’s non-answers.

It’s good to be happy, no? It is a jolly world, after all.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by freediver on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 9:52am

Quote:

But it made me realize that you really do believe these crackpot ideas. You’re on exactly the same page as Yadda, and all from.a chat with one Muslim: Abu.

I remember it took about a dozen pages to convince Gandalf that there were several Muslims I was discussing it with. You were there. This board has been in the hands of several of them.

If there is anything wrong on the wiki, go ahead and point it out. What I believe is that there are many Muslims out there who believe that crap, and they do represent a genuine threat. The number of Australian Muslims traveling overseas to fight Jihad confirms this.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Soren on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 11:31am

Muslims whose women are not covered up but go about their lives freely and equally, who share a bottle of wine over dinner, who are intellectually curious about things outside islam, dress and speek without islamic affectations, who work and otherwise participate in the civic and social life of the country, who actively avoid muslim ghettos - they are no threat to anyone and are respected and appreciated like averyone else who likewise fits in and contributes.

More on wine, women and Islam:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerscruton/2014/09/26/men-without-women/

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 9:10pm

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 9:52am:

Quote:

But it made me realize that you really do believe these crackpot ideas. You’re on exactly the same page as Yadda, and all from.a chat with one Muslim: Abu.

Sorry, FD, you’re right. I stand corrected.

Two Muslims: Abu and Falah.

ASIO estimates sixty Australian Muslims fighting - or providing "support" to ISIL or "other groups" - in Syria.

And that support is unknown.

An estimated two hundred British Muslims doing the same. Again, whether they’re hacking heads, raising funds or providing humanitarian support in an unofficial capacity is unknown.

Last week, about five Australian Muslims were detained to question them over their contacts in Syria and Iraq.

Five.

They may or may not represent a genuine threat. A "genuine" threat is someone who’s genuinely done or planned something. On the planning, they charged one.

One.

And we don’t even know the charge.

There are not many Muslims out there who believe this crap, and there are even fewer who act on it.

The Feds are going to town on the ones who have, may, or want to - or know someone who has, may, or want to.

These are the facts, FD. If you want to go back to Mo and the Jew, feel free.

And we’d fight to the death for your right to do.so.

Freewill, you see?

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by freediver on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 9:18pm

What do you think they are doing over there Gandalf? Rescuing abandoned puppies?

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 9:23pm

Soren wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 11:31am:

Ah. You mean non-deviate Muslims.

Shurely shome mishtake.

I know a few. You?

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 9:27pm

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 9:18pm:

What do you think they are doing over there Gandalf? Rescuing abandoned puppies?

I’m.Karnal, FD. Pleased to meet you.

What do.ASIO think they’re doing?

They say they don’t know.

Maybe we should make something up, eh?

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by freediver on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 10:02pm

I think they are raping and pillaging their way across the middle east. Just like Muhammed.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 11:34pm

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 10:02pm:

I think they are raping and pillaging their way across the middle east. Just like Muhammed.

Oh, I know.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 7:21am

Karnal wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 11:34pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 10:02pm:

I think they are raping and pillaging their way across the middle east. Just like Muhammed.

Oh, I know.

K,

You claim you know, .....WHAT ?

That many moslems 'are raping and pillaging their way across the middle east. Just like Muhammed' ?

And that many of those very same moslems, recently, were walking past us, in the street, in Australia ?

I claim, .......that you are looking away [averting your eyes].

Because you refuse to be morally confronted, by the truth, of what the 'friends' of your friends, are doing to other human beings in Syria and Iraq.

'you refuse to be morally confronted' = = you refuse to be morally moved, by what the 'friends' of your friends, are doing to other human beings in Syria and Iraq.

IMAGE....

Aqsa Mahmood - she has such a pretty and 'innocent' face, wouldn't you say, K ?
How many times, has an Aqsa Mahmood passed you in the street, K ?

'British' woman, Aqsa Mahmood - running ISIS brothels, allowing killers to rape kidnapped Yazidi women.

'British' woman, Aqsa Mahmood, "said she wanted to behead Christians with a “blunt knife”."

Mirror Online-British female jihadis running ISIS brothels allowing killers to rape kidnapped Yazidi women
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-female-jihadis-running-isis-4198165

Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Lord Herbert on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 8:34am

Karnal wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 9:47am:

Your entire world view on Muslims lacks the insight learned from experience. It’s an internet thing ...

Correct.

It's not a 'personal experience' thing which exposes you only to staged events for public consumption, or the acquaintance of a totally unrepresentative dozen or so urbane Muslims who ignore most of the nasty bits in the Koran.

Meet most of Hitler's civilian population and you'd correctly believe here were a fairly decent lot who just wanted to get on with life and not go to war.

It's always the ideological activists who are the problem. You can sup with, and break bread with any number of Muslims who will come across as okay people ... but the fact remains that their source of moral inspiration is the same source as that which inspires the jihadis to go on the rampage, and from which they draw their divine authority.

It's patently childish to pretend you 'know' Muslims better than someone who has access to the internet simply because you've sat down to a meal of tabouli with a few of them.

The message to immigrant Muslims since the internet, and mobile phone cameras, and non-PC professional reporting, and reality shows such as Andrew Bolt puts on ~ is "You can run but you can't hide".

Sooner or later your dissembling for window-dressing effect will be exposed as a sham and a fraud.

School after school in the UK's second largest city was found to be getting taken over by Muslim activists on a mission to Islamise ordinary British kids to the ways of Sharia extremism.

The Muslim underground in Britain is a festering rats nest of enemies against the West.

link

Any day of the week I'll chose the internet for my Reality Checks as to what the Muslims are up to that we should all be worried about.

I doubt very much that Australia's prime minister tells his ASIO and AFP chiefs to leave their computers and go have lunch with a few nice Muslim families in order to learn what's really going on in the Muslim community that our security personnel should be aware of.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Soren on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 9:12am

Karnal wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 9:23pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 11:31am:

Ah. You mean non-deviate Muslims.

Shurely shome mishtake.

I know a few. You?

Me too, bozo. I know quite a few. I know one - rare bird, that one - who even recognises and supports Israel. Doesn’t take the koran and mohammed seriously. That’s the key.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Hot Breath on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 12:19pm

Lot more them than you think. Whats the average Mosque attendance in Australia? Brian quotes a figure of about 45%. Thats not much higher than attendance at Church apparently. You lot seem to think every Muslim is brainwashed by the Imam and that they all go religiously(!) to Mosque every week to get their instructions in Terrorism... ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Soren on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 12:39pm

Thank you mini Brainless, like I said just in the previous post you actually quote but evidently do not comprehend (whats new?) - those who do not follow the koran and mohammed, drink wine with their dinner, let their women flourish without hijabs and worse, work and participate in the cultural and artistic and other gifts of western enlightenment - they are ok, nobody is bothered by them.

I know you are not thick on purpose but just are. Nobody could pretend to be as thick as you.
I suggest behavioural therapy. Count to ten thousand before you say or post anything. That should give you some time to control some of the most startlingly idiotic things that obviously pop into your head with disturbing relentlessness.
Give it a try. If nothing else, it would lessen our suffering. So be compassionate.
start now... 1...

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Hot Breath on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 3:13pm

So Soren why do you keep acting as if all Muslims are in the latter group? Why do you make so little effort to differentiate between moderates and extremists Sore?

Brian's right, you do erect a strawman to argue against! This page will help you immensely in your task Soren. ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D :D :D

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Soren on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 5:01pm

|dev|null wrote on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 3:13pm:

So Soren why do you keep acting as if all Muslims are in the latter group? Why do you make so little effort to differentiate between moderates and extremists Soren

When they are all dressed up as devout muslims, beards, hijabs, niqabs, inshalllahing I can’t tell them apart. Can you?
Can’t really go up to every one of them and ask. So I have to go by the signals they send out themselves: here they are but deport themselves as if they woul like to be in the Middle East. That doesn’t say they are happy here.

The lapsed muslims aren’t followers of the koran and mohammed so they are not really relevant when we talk about Islamic ideology and its devotees.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Brian Ross on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 9:32pm

Soren wrote on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 5:01pm:

|dev|null wrote on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 3:13pm:

So Soren why do you keep acting as if all Muslims are in the latter group? Why do you make so little effort to differentiate between moderates and extremists Soren

Surely you judge your other, fellow Australians by their actions and deeds, Soren? Why make an exception for Muslims and instead judge them on your prejudices? ::)

You make no effort to differentiate between "lapsed" and "observant" Muslims, Soren. Absolutely no effort, you just attack "Muslims" without any qualification. Typical bigotry. ::)

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Soren on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 11:18pm

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 9:32pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 5:01pm:

|dev|null wrote on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 3:13pm:

So Soren why do you keep acting as if all Muslims are in the latter group? Why do you make so little effort to differentiate between moderates and extremists Soren

You left off the bit of my post where i did make distinction, you dishonest, spineless fool.

My other fellow Australians do not present themselves (action and deed) in a manner calculated to demonstrate opposition to the norms and customs of the place. The ones that do are called out as antisocial.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Karnal on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 11:50pm

Soren wrote on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 11:18pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 9:32pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 5:01pm:

|dev|null wrote on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 3:13pm:

So Soren why do you keep acting as if all Muslims are in the latter group? Why do you make so little effort to differentiate between moderates and extremists Soren

Yes, old boy, but we do make an.exception for your prophet Freud, peace be upon him.

His jolly beard was hardly designed to oppose the norms and customs of the place.

Santa Claus, on the other hand -

Ban him.

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Yadda on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 8:48am

Is there anything more corrosive to the credibility [and more damaging to the electability] of a political party, than when politicians from political party's are seen to be blatantly lying, to those whose charge [i.e. duty] it is, to elect them to office ?

And is there anything more damaging to our democratic political system, than the systematic corruption [of purpose of democracy] through the systematic and blatant lying of our political and national leaders ?

Lying politicians and the corruption of purpose of democracy - being openly exposed to public view - are the principle causes of instability in the democratic system of government, and they are the principle cause of the corrosion of confidence - among citizens - in the democratic system of government, imo.

Self serving and deceitful politicians have subverted and damaged both the purpose and the function of modern democracy, imo.

Why is this happening ?

Why are our national ~~politicians~~ leaders doing this ?

And why is political instability our certain future, in 'Western hemisphere' countries ?

We should not blame 'others'.

It is our own tolerance of [a culture of] LAWLESSNESS [in our own 'bosom'] that will be our downfall.i

David Cameron on Eid al-Adha: Islamic State has “nothing to do with the great religion of Islam, a religion of peace”
Robert Spencer Oct 12, 2014
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/10/david-cameron-on-eid-al-adha-islamic-state-has-nothing-to-do-with-the-great-religion-of-islam-a-religion-of-peace

Cameron on Islamic State’s claim to be Islamic: “Nonsense, Islam is a religion of peace”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/cameron-on-islamic-states-claim-to-be-islamic-nonsense-islam-is-a-religion-of-peace

UK: Judges rule that convicted jihad terrorist can’t be deported, it would breach his rights to “private and family life”
Robert Spencer Oct 11, 2014
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/10/uk-judges-rule-that-convicted-jihad-terrorist-cant-be-deported-it-would-breach-his-rights-to-private-and-family-life

Gang Rapes, 'Junior Jihadists' and Runaway Sharia
A Month of Islam in Britain: September 2014
by Soeren Kern • October 12, 2014
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4767/islam-britain-september-2014

"Nothing to see here. Move on. Move on....." !!!!!!

+++

"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
Karl Popper

"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil."
Thomas Mann

Title: Re: At last, 'ISIS is not ISLAMIC' claim is being ridi
Post by Soren on Oct 14^th, 2014 at 9:52am

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 9:32pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 5:01pm:

|dev|null wrote on Oct 1^st, 2014 at 3:13pm:

So Soren why do you keep acting as if all Muslims are in the latter group? Why do you make so little effort to differentiate between moderates and extremists Soren

By your stupid reckoning we should insist that you be treated as a religious Christian because you were baptised.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1412730103/28#28

But if you do not believe in the Koran and do not take Mohammed seriously, you cannot be called a Muslim. Requiring this statement to be appended to every utterance criticising Islam is stupid, Brain.

Moderate muslims - if you believe in the Korean, sunnah and Mohammed's example, you are not moderate.