Germany's intelligence service believes Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by pro-Russian rebels using a missile taken from a Ukraine military base, a German newspaper has reported.

The finding contradicts previous claims – including by Prime Minister Tony Abbott and US Secretary of State John Kerry – that the missile was supplied by Russia.
Sunday's Der Spiegel reported that the BND, Germany's foreign intelligence service, had completed a detailed analysis of the July 17 tragedy, in which all 298 passengers and crew died.

Two weeks ago, BND president Gerhard Schindler presented the evidence to a parliamentary committee, including satellite images and photos.

The intelligence indicated that pro-Russian separatists captured a BUK missile system from a Ukrainian military base, then later fired it on MH17, Spiegel reported.

Ukraine has accused Russia of being directly responsible for the attack, and its own security service provided recordings of calls that it claimed proved the link.

In July, the head of Ukraine's SBU, Vitaly Naida, said it had "clear evidence" of the involvement of Russian citizens in the attack on MH17, which he had provided to international intelligence services.

Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott, in his recent "shirtfront" challenge to Russian President Vladimir Putin, said those on board MH17 were "murdered with Russian support".


http://www.watoday.com.au/world/prorussian-rebels-using-seized-ukrainian-missile-downed-mh17-passenger-plane-says-germany-20141020-118i9u.html?google_editors_picks=true


Another gaffe by this train wreck of a PM?

Vic wrote on Oct 20^th, 2014 at 12:15pm:

Another gaffe by this train wreck of a PM?

Many more to come.


http://www.self-help-and-self-development.com/images/LongList.jpg

That certainly is an interest report.  The next questions would be:
1) How did a BUK system got stolen from the Ukrainian army?  - the story behind that. 
2) Even the Germans must have known that a BUK system had been stolen, then the Ukrainian must have known as well.  So what this important piece of information not disclosed prior - Has it been 'censored' by our own media to stir up emotions. 

Only in abbott's wildest dreams. Think he will settle for putin's knees being bare bottomed spanked

I hope Putin gives it to Abbott for getting Pauline Hanson falsely imprisoned.

Is the BUK  a russian missle system? - YES

Are 'Russian separatists' supported by Russia? - YES

Will Truebelievers dig up as much absurd crap as possible so that they can bag Tony Abbott - Do Bears schitt in the forrest?  :D

Only three Australian passengers on that flight were worth Abbott attending their funeral.

Didn't take Abbott long to get sick of using the victims for his self promos!

Only three passengers on that flight were worth Abbott attending their funeral, they were the lucky ones got in first before Abbott got sick of using the victims for his look at me promos!

re Swagman:

Is the BUK  a russian missle system? - YES

Well, not so long ago, the whole Ukrainian army was armed by Russians, so this is irrelevant.

Are 'Russian separatists' supported by Russia? - YES

Well, the CIA supported and armed Saddam Hussein in the past (he was even given the Key to Detroit city) , and he went on to do some really nasty stuff as well.   Does that mean the USA was responsible for what he had done?  And there are other dictator examples as well.   :)   

Okay politics aside, yes, the Russians separatists were supported by Russia for their cause, but unless President Putin ordered the separatists to deliberately shoot down MH 17, then Russia is not responsible. 

Its like say, I have supported my neighbour to move out of her home, and she happen to have a baseball bat that my dad have made for her.  And when she tried to move out, she used the baseball bat on her cat, and killed it in a rage because her parents not allowing her to move out.  Does that mean I am responsible for her killing the cat? 

Swagman wrote on Oct 20^th, 2014 at 12:46pm:

Is the BUK  a russian missle system? - YES Are 'Russian separatists' supported by Russia? - YES Will Truebelievers dig up as much absurd crap as possible so that they can bag Tony Abbott - Do Bears schitt in the forrest?  :D

Does the Ukraine manufacture BUK? Yes
Does the Ukraine use BUK? Yes
Does the Ukraine Export BUK? Yes

http://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/tehnika-pvo/75-zenitniy-raketniy-kompleks-buk

Edit: The captured BUK is not a new story either. Remember this?

Quote:

He added: ‘These separatists boasted on Twitter about capturing a BUK SA11 missile launcher on June 29, and several hours before the downing of the plane, locals in Torez reported seeing BUK missile launchers and separatist flags around the city. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696847/They-shouldnt-f-g-flying-There-war-going-Ukraine-intelligence-officials-release-phone-calls-claim-PROVES-Russia-shot-Flight-MH17.html

DaS Energy wrote on Oct 20^th, 2014 at 12:58pm:

Only three passengers on that flight were worth Abbott attending their funeral, they were the lucky ones got in first before Abbott got sick of using the victims for his look at me promos!

Yep, only an absolute arsehole would use the deaths of these innocent people for political gain, wouldn't they Das.

tickleandrose wrote on Oct 20^th, 2014 at 1:03pm:

Its like say, I have supported my neighbour to move out of her home, and she happen to have a baseball bat that my dad have made for her.  And when she tried to move out, she used the baseball bat on her cat, and killed it in a rage because her parents not allowing her to move out.  Does that mean I am responsible for her killing the cat?

Depends upon whether or not you knew that your neighbour friend was a psychopath or not.... :D

King FriYAY II wrote on Oct 20^th, 2014 at 1:42pm:

DaS Energy wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 12:58pm: Only three passengers on that flight were worth Abbott attending their funeral, they were the lucky ones got in first before Abbott got sick of using the victims for his look at me promos! Yep, only an absolute arsehole would use the deaths of these innocent people for political gain,

Well, that's Abbott for ya.

I bet longy doens't make any appearances ..... :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

John Smith wrote on Oct 20^th, 2014 at 2:18pm:

I bet longy doens't make any appearances ..... :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

Or Mr Baron.

Remember how gleefully 'they' pointed to some blurry image of something said to be a Russian BUK vehicle, said to be returning to Russia, and said to be missing one missile?

greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 20^th, 2014 at 1:43pm:

King FriYAY II wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 1:42pm: DaS Energy wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 12:58pm: Only three passengers on that flight were worth Abbott attending their funeral, they were the lucky ones got in first before Abbott got sick of using the victims for his look at me promos! Yep, only an absolute arsehole would use the deaths of these innocent people for political gain, Well, that's Abbott for ya.

Yep, only an absolute arsehole would use the deaths of these innocent people for political gain, wouldn't they peccer.

::)

Abbott jumping the gun as usual, if this turns out to be credible isn't he going to look quite the fool, again :)

King FriYAY II wrote on Oct 20^th, 2014 at 2:47pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 1:43pm: King FriYAY II wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 1:42pm: DaS Energy wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 12:58pm: Only three passengers on that flight were worth Abbott attending their funeral, they were the lucky ones got in first before Abbott got sick of using the victims for his look at me promos! Yep, only an absolute arsehole would use the deaths of these innocent people for political gain, Well, that's Abbott for ya. Yep, only an absolute arsehole would use the deaths of these innocent people for political gain, wouldn't they peccer. ::)

Well that's Tony and bishop for ya.

I say bullships to that.

Do you know how hard it is to use a Buk missile and tracking station in a coordinated team to shoot down an airliner? How much training and assistance you need? The so called 'revolt' had not been going on long enough for people to have been trained to use a buk launcher.

It is more likely that the Buk launcher came with a ready staffed Russian crew, and that is why Russia is being so cagey about all of this. Because if that is the case, they are directly responsible, not responsible by proxy.

In addition, the Western powers know what really happened, for sure, which is why Abbott is so angry. They probably cannot present the evidence or the proof for fear of compromising intelligence methods.

No, I don't know how hard it is.  Do you?  if so please explain.

Its time wrote on Oct 20^th, 2014 at 2:57pm:

King FriYAY II wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 2:47pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 1:43pm: King FriYAY II wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 1:42pm: DaS Energy wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 12:58pm: Only three passengers on that flight were worth Abbott attending their funeral, they were the lucky ones got in first before Abbott got sick of using the victims for his look at me promos! Yep, only an absolute arsehole would use the deaths of these innocent people for political gain, Well, that's Abbott for ya. Yep, only an absolute arsehole would use the deaths of these innocent people for political gain, wouldn't they peccer. ::) Well that's Tony and bishop for ya.

The brain dead are out in force, is it a full moon or something?

Calanen wrote on Oct 20^th, 2014 at 2:58pm:

I say bullships to that. Do you know how hard it is to use a Buk missile and tracking station in a coordinated team to shoot down an airliner? How much training and assistance you need? The so called 'revolt' had not been going on long enough for people to have been trained to use a buk launcher. It is more likely that the Buk launcher came with a ready staffed Russian crew, and that is why Russia is being so cagey about all of this. Because if that is the case, they are directly responsible, not responsible by proxy. In addition, the Western powers know what really happened, for sure, which is why Abbott is so angry. They probably cannot present the evidence or the proof for fear of compromising intelligence methods.

Did we previously know how much you know.

I didn't know how much you don't know, but now do!

And so the story changes yet again. It no longer Russia  shot the plane down, its Russians manning a weapons system in another country next to Russia that shot it down!

Calanen wrote on Oct 20^th, 2014 at 2:58pm:

I say bullships to that. Do you know how hard it is to use a Buk missile and tracking station in a coordinated team to shoot down an airliner? How much training and assistance you need? The so called 'revolt' had not been going on long enough for people to have been trained to use a buk launcher. It is more likely that the Buk launcher came with a ready staffed Russian crew, and that is why Russia is being so cagey about all of this. Because if that is the case, they are directly responsible, not responsible by proxy. In addition, the Western powers know what really happened, for sure, which is why Abbott is so angry. They probably cannot present the evidence or the proof for fear of compromising intelligence methods.

Did we previously know how much you know.

I didn't how much you don't know, but now do!

And so the story changes yet again. It no longer Russia  shot the plane down, its Russians manning a weapons system in another country next to Russia that shot it down!

King FriYAY II wrote on Oct 20^th, 2014 at 3:11pm:

Its time wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 2:57pm: King FriYAY II wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 2:47pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 1:43pm: King FriYAY II wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 1:42pm: DaS Energy wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 12:58pm: Only three passengers on that flight were worth Abbott attending their funeral, they were the lucky ones got in first before Abbott got sick of using the victims for his look at me promos! Yep, only an absolute arsehole would use the deaths of these innocent people for political gain, Well, that's Abbott for ya. Yep, only an absolute arsehole would use the deaths of these innocent people for political gain, wouldn't they peccer. ::) Well that's Tony and bishop for ya. The brain dead are out in force, is it a full moon or something?

;D

Now now it sounds like you need a laugh , go check out Greg hunts walrus funding  ;D :D

King FriYAY II wrote on Oct 20^th, 2014 at 2:47pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 1:43pm: King FriYAY II wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 1:42pm: DaS Energy wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 12:58pm: Only three passengers on that flight were worth Abbott attending their funeral, they were the lucky ones got in first before Abbott got sick of using the victims for his look at me promos! Yep, only an absolute arsehole would use the deaths of these innocent people for political gain, Well, that's Abbott for ya. Yep, only an absolute arsehole would use the deaths of these innocent people for political gain, wouldn't they peccer.

Well, that's Abbott for ya.

greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 20^th, 2014 at 3:24pm:

King FriYAY II wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 2:47pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 1:43pm: King FriYAY II wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 1:42pm: DaS Energy wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 12:58pm: Only three passengers on that flight were worth Abbott attending their funeral, they were the lucky ones got in first before Abbott got sick of using the victims for his look at me promos! Yep, only an absolute arsehole would use the deaths of these innocent people for political gain, Well, that's Abbott for ya. Yep, only an absolute arsehole would use the deaths of these innocent people for political gain, wouldn't they peccer. Well, that's Abbott for ya.

You wouldn't do that though.....

::)

Smack heads... ;D

King FriYAY II wrote on Oct 20^th, 2014 at 3:58pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 3:24pm: King FriYAY II wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 2:47pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 1:43pm: King FriYAY II wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 1:42pm: DaS Energy wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 12:58pm: Only three passengers on that flight were worth Abbott attending their funeral, they were the lucky ones got in first before Abbott got sick of using the victims for his look at me promos! Yep, only an absolute arsehole would use the deaths of these innocent people for political gain, Well, that's Abbott for ya. Yep, only an absolute arsehole would use the deaths of these innocent people for political gain, wouldn't they peccer. Well, that's Abbott for ya. You wouldn't do that though.....

Exactly.

I'm an all-round good guy.

Swagman wrote on Oct 20^th, 2014 at 12:46pm:

Is the BUK  a russian missle system? - YES Are 'Russian separatists' supported by Russia? - YES Will Truebelievers dig up as much absurd crap as possible so that they can bag Tony Abbott - Do Bears schitt in the forrest?  :D

Yes dear, the German government are working behind the scenes to have the women basher removed and those that follow him lobotomised not that it will make much difference to you.

greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 20^th, 2014 at 3:24pm:

King FriYAY II wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 2:47pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 1:43pm: King FriYAY II wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 1:42pm: DaS Energy wrote on Oct 20th, 2014 at 12:58pm: Only three passengers on that flight were worth Abbott attending their funeral, they were the lucky ones got in first before Abbott got sick of using the victims for his look at me promos! Yep, only an absolute arsehole would use the deaths of these innocent people for political gain, Well, that's Abbott for ya. Yep, only an absolute arsehole would use the deaths of these innocent people for political gain, wouldn't they peccer. Well, that's Abbott for ya.

Howard had taught Abbott well  , using deaths for political gain

If the separatists shot it down it doesn't really matter if they stole the missile or if Santa Claus gave it to them!

Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 20^th, 2014 at 4:46pm:

If the separatists shot it down it doesn't really matter if they stole the missile or if Santa Claus gave it to them!

Not at all.  Why do you ask?

Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 20^th, 2014 at 4:46pm:

If the separatists shot it down it doesn't really matter if they stole the missile or if Santa Claus gave it to them!

Is Putin Santa Claus?

The difference it makes is that Putin and Russia are being blamed. If they stole it or it was given by Santa then why blame Russia? You do know why Abbott said he was going to "shirtfront" Putin?

If I manufacture a car and it runs down an old lady on the street... does that mean I am responsible?

Now this entire game may be one of shadow blinds and cut-outs... plausible deniability... but unless you can prove direct involvement, there is no case to answer and anyone who offers to aggressively and even physically confront a head of state over such an unfounded idea is guilty of common assault.

Now get it right.....

How out of touch are our politicians with mainstream Australia?

I can see Tony groveling to Putin and saying:-

"It was just a turn of phrase like being a 'recalcitrant' was, like all the posturing with Indonesia over 'people trafficking' while we deal back door, and you understand it was only in the spirit of keeping my people happy in thinking I am a strong Stalinist leader"....

"Tovarisch!  We are on same page!  This I am understanding."

...(said Putin)

What a load of cods (not you, dear)