We have had a few Muslims on here with a diverse range of views. One thing many of them have in common is that they claim that they, or their views, represent the majority of Muslims. Interestingly, Gandalf has made this claim, in addition to insisting that his views exactly match Australian law. So if you want to find out what the majority of Muslims think on an issue, you merely have to consult a lawyer. This is convenient, as it would be a lot easier than asking a Muslim, and saves Muslims having to reveal their more inconvenient beliefs.


polite_gandalf wrote on May 28^th, 2013 at 9:11pm:

I don't need to start another thread - because what I am advocating is exactly the same as the current Australian laws. I'd just like you to explain how you think its not.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 28^th, 2013 at 9:11pm:

How much more clearly can I say I think the law should be exactly what it currently is? What exactly are you confused about FD?

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 12^th, 2014 at 9:35pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 8th, 2014 at 10:08pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 8th, 2014 at 10:37am: And what do you propose I do? Put my case forward that this is not the true teachings of islam? Well gee whiz I do that every day. Should I use violence - and become the very person I've been saying I'm not? I propose you convince your fellow Muslims. No use preaching to me, pal, I think Islam is a load of nonsense, whichever way you look at it.  You need to get in with the boys who share your religion but not your interpretation of it. Your job is to get your Islamic boys on YOUR side as far as your interpretation of the nonsense goes.  That's where YOUR work is. And since the vast majority of muslims *DO* adhere to my version of peaceful/tolerant islam - I'd say I (or rather "my side" - if you like)  have been rather successful no?

freediver wrote on Dec 16^th, 2014 at 8:20am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 13th, 2014 at 6:16pm: freediver wrote on Dec 13th, 2014 at 8:03am: Is this the version of Islam you are unwilling to even put a name on? Abu said the same thing about his views. At least he was willing to back it up. You prefer labels FD? Sure - how about "peaceful and tolerant Islam" - or PTI for short. How do you actually know that your version is the "mainstream" one if you do not have a label for it? That's what words are for Gandalf. We have seen you try to twist the opinions of Malaysian Muslims into something more moderate than what they are. I think this is more likely to be a consistent effort on your behalf to only see the best in other Muslims rather than to face reality.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 16^th, 2014 at 9:55am:

Most muslims are peaceful and tolerant.

Gandalf, are we talking about actions or views here? Does your version of Islam only represent the majority of Muslims to the extent that you refrain from chopping people's heads off? Is Islam a set of views, or a series of actions you perform?

- I believe in a peaceful, tolerant islam
- the vast majority of muslims are peaceful and tolerant towards non-muslims.

I put two and two together.

You could be right though - I may be being entirely presumptuous - perhaps most muslims really hate and privately curse their non-muslim neighbours, but are too cowardly and/or lazy to act out their desires. Its about as useful to assume this than to assume the opposite in my view.

Should we assume the worst about muslims? Who knows, maybe we should - maybe we are all scum, and we should be all banned and deported and have our mosques raised to the ground. Who am I to argue otherwise? You constantly pigeon-hole me and claim to know my beliefs, so I'll defer to your better judgment.

Quote:

You could be right though - I may be being entirely presumptuous - perhaps most muslims really hate and privately curse their non-muslim neighbours, but are too cowardly and/or lazy to act out their desires. Its about as useful to assume this than to assume the opposite in my view.

The majority of Malaysian Muslims want to introduce Shariah law, stone adulterers to death, execute apostates etc. They are also peaceful and tolerant. Is this the majority you belong to? Are we only capable of judging a Muslim's views by whether they are currently engaged in the act of beheading someone? Perhaps you mean there are two types of Muslim - those who are beheading people, and those who want to. And you are in the majority, no?


Quote:

You constantly pigeon-hole me and claim to know my beliefs

What pigeon hole have I placed you in?

Not Malaysians, shurely?

Salamat Datang.

- perhaps most muslims really hate and privately curse their non-muslim neighbours, but are too cowardly and/or lazy to act out their desires.

#Bingo

jackmountain wrote on Dec 16^th, 2014 at 9:20pm:

- perhaps most muslims really hate and privately curse their non-muslim neighbours, but are too cowardly and/or lazy to act out their desires. #Bingo

Yes, we have one of them here, JM. Chap by the name of Matty/Mahdi. He comes here every few months to hate and curse people, then demands to be banned or he’ll have tantie.

I’m not sure where he goes when he’s done. Back to Mum’s, I think.

Karnal wrote on Dec 16^th, 2014 at 9:26pm:

jackmountain wrote on Dec 16th, 2014 at 9:20pm: - perhaps most muslims really hate and privately curse their non-muslim neighbours, but are too cowardly and/or lazy to act out their desires. #Bingo Yes, we have one of them here, JM. Chap by the name of Matty/Mahdi. He comes here every few months to hate and curse people, then demands to be banned or he’ll have tantie. I’m not sure where he goes when he’s done. Back to Mum’s, I think.

Cool story bro.

#Illridewithathatkafir

jackmountain wrote on Dec 16^th, 2014 at 9:20pm:

- perhaps most muslims really hate and privately curse their non-muslim neighbours, but are too cowardly and/or lazy to act out their desires. #Bingo

Nah.

Not cowardly.

Two faced, deceitful, wanna-be-murderers     [.....just biding their time].




Google,
smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"



Quote:

A Study in Muslim Doctrine "...while sincere friendship with non-Muslims is forbidden, insincere friendship - whenever beneficial to Muslims - is not."

http://www.meforum.org/2512/nidal-hasan-fort-hood-muslim-doctrine






The only type of 'peaceful' relationship with disbelievers which is permitted by ISLAMIC law, is a relationship which is based upon deceit and lying [by 'the moslem'], towards those who are not moslems, so as to advance and strengthen the interests of 'the moslem' and ISLAM.

e.g.

Quote:

July 28, 2006 Islamic Dictionary for Infidels ...Robert Spencer, ..."Religious deception of unbelievers is indeed taught by the Qur'an itself: "Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them" (Qur'an 3:28). In other words, don't make friends with unbelievers except to "guard yourselves from them": pretend to be their friends so that you can strengthen yourself against them. The distinguished Qur'anic commentator Ibn Kathir explains that this verse teaches that if "believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers," they may "show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/012406.php

Muslims are sleepers pure and simple.

jackmountain wrote on Dec 16^th, 2014 at 9:35pm:

Muslims are sleepers pure and simple.

Moslems are treacherous, wanna-be-murderers,        ......pure and simple.






Yadda said....

Quote:

gandalf is the type of moslem who promotes only peace, and does not follow the violent parts of his faith.           :P Yadda said.... [quote] Dictionary; Muslim = = a follower of Islam. Google; Shahada, confession of faith, of a muslim "There is no god except for Allah alone; and Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah." Today, many moslems - living in Australia - are insisting that we, Australians, must be forced to believe the incredible; "I'm a moslem, and i worship Allah, and i revere Mohammed his messenger. And i know that Allah calls for the enslavement and/or murder of all non-moslems - THROUGH JIHAD [religious fighting, when moslems have that 'opportunity']. But i don't follow that part of my faith. HONEST!"             ;D Dictionary; incredible = = 1 impossible to believe. 2 difficult to believe; extraordinary.

[/quote]




+++



Please watch this YT...
A UK moslem community leader, speaking of the London 7/7 bombing;

YT
KILLING OF NON-MUSLIMS IS LEGITIMATE
"...when we say innocent people, we mean moslems."
"....[not accepting ISLAM] is a crime against God."
"...If you are a non-moslem, then you are guilty of not believing in God."
"...as a moslem....i must have hatred towards everything which is non-ISLAM."
"...[moslems] allegiance is always with the moslems, so i will never condemn a moslem for what he does."
"...Britain has always been Dar al Harb [the Land of War]"
"...no, i could never condemn a moslem brother, i would never condemn a moslem brother. I will always stand with my moslem brother....whether he is an oppresser or the oppressed."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4






ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) "
fiqhussunnah/fus1_06


ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."





THE HADITH....

"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." - DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260




Yadda said....

Quote:

Every moslem in Australia [and indeed, every moslem on the planet], by self declaring as a moslem, is self declaring a criminal intent [by our laws] against local non-moslems. ISLAM is a criminal compact among moslems, to wage a violent 'religious' war against non-moslems ['unbelievers']. TRUTH. All cognisant moslems themselves, know this to be true, and deny and hide this criminal intent from their non-moslem host communities.

Quote:

"What makes Allah happy? Allah is happy, when kafir get killed."

Please watch this YT...
Muslims being deceptive Islam EX-Muslims         goto 4m 30s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZx8cNSC9O0

freediver wrote on Dec 16^th, 2014 at 8:54pm:

The majority of Malaysian Muslims want to introduce Shariah law, stone adulterers to death, execute apostates etc. They are also peaceful and tolerant. Is this the majority you belong to? Are we only capable of judging a Muslim's views by whether they are currently engaged in the act of beheading someone? Perhaps you mean there are two types of Muslim - those who are beheading people, and those who want to. And you are in the majority, no?

Malaysian muslims are not the only muslims, and yet the population is split almost 50-50 on the issue. Indonesian muslims have vastly different views - which I know you're aware of, but curiously never mention. You are being tricky with your cherry picking.

And while I don't support hudud punishment, I don't believe supporting it necessarily makes someone automatically intolerant and violent. You may disagree, thats fine - but the fact remains most muslims remain peaceful, tolerant and non-violent towards non-muslims.


Karnal wrote on Dec 16^th, 2014 at 9:06pm:

Salamat Datang.

Sama sama

"the population is split almost 50-50 on the issue"

Prove it.

There is a well worn thread on it Matty, where all the data is provided. You are more than welcome to look it up.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 16^th, 2014 at 3:27pm:

- I believe in a peaceful, tolerant islam - the vast majority of muslims are peaceful and tolerant towards non-muslims. I put two and two together. You could be right though - I may be being entirely presumptuous - perhaps most muslims really hate and privately curse their non-muslim neighbours, but are too cowardly and/or lazy to act out their desires. Its about as useful to assume this than to assume the opposite in my view. Should we assume the worst about muslims? Who knows, maybe we should - maybe we are all scum, and we should be all banned and deported and have our mosques raised to the ground. Who am I to argue otherwise? You constantly pigeon-hole me and claim to know my beliefs, so I'll defer to your better judgment.

gandalf,

You are a moslem.

[....aren't you ????      is there any denial from you, on that front ???? ]

And so, a moslem is a moslem.


And [thanks to the Koran and the Hadith, online] everyone [who wants to know] can know, what the tenets and laws of ISLAM, demand of 'the moslem'.


ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) "
fiqhussunnah/fus1_06


ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."





THE HADITH....

"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." - DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260



e.g.

http://thereligionofpeace.com/index_files/gay-man-thrown_sm.jpg
http://thereligionofpeace.com/index_files/gay-man-thrown_sm.jpg

Quote:

While Americans debate the ethics of using enhanced interrogation techniques on mass murderers, pious Muslims are casually tossing homosexuals from rooftops.

IMAGE and comment source.....

THE RELIGION OF PEACE
http://thereligionofpeace.com/

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2014/Dec-10/280515-isis-kills-men-accused-of-blasphemy-homosexuality.ashxi+++





Quote:

"What makes Allah happy? Allah is happy, when kafir get killed."

Please watch this YT...
Muslims being deceptive Islam EX-Muslims         goto 4m 30s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZx8cNSC9O0

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 16^th, 2014 at 10:04pm:

There is a well worn thread on it Matty, where all the data is provided. You are more than welcome to look it up.

Cool story bro. Didn't think you could back the BS up.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 16^th, 2014 at 10:04pm:

There is a well worn thread on it Matty, where all the data is provided. You are more than welcome to look it up.

Cool story bro. Didn't think you could back the BS up.
You know as much about Muslims as a piece of tissue blowing in the wind.

Quote:

Malaysian muslims are not the only muslims, and yet the population is split almost 50-50 on the issue.

Does this one issue define what type of Muslim you are? In my opinion, it merely identifies the most extreme Muslims, and in many countries they make up the majority. There are plenty of nasty varieties of Islam between them and you, and even on the other side if you want to include people like ISIS.


Quote:

Indonesian muslims have vastly different views - which I know you're aware of, but curiously never mention. You are being tricky with your cherry picking.

I am asking you to explain how your views on Islam put you in the majority. If you merely meant that you are with the majority in the sense that you are not going to hold up a non-Halal chocolate shop tomorrow, I am happy to leave it at that. I have no choice but to pick the evidence because you have presented none. Malaysia is a great example of both the difference between what Muslims do and what they believe, and of your efforts to misrepresent the views of other Muslims.


Quote:

And while I don't support hudud punishment, I don't believe supporting it necessarily makes someone automatically intolerant and violent.

You'll have to explain this one to me. Is that like saying it is OK to be a Nazi if you insist the government does the Jew slaughtering for you? Abu was fond of that line of argument. Or are you merely distinguishing a peaceful Nazi from an executioner? Can I say I am a vegetarian Muslim if I buy my halal bacon from a butcher rather than slaughtering it myself?


jackmountain wrote on Dec 16^th, 2014 at 9:58pm:

"the population is split almost 50-50 on the issue" Prove it.

What Gandalf means by that is that the majority of them support stoning people to death for adultery and executing apostates. Ironically, he once described me as an extremist because less than 50% of Australians appear to agree with me on a particular issue. By that reckoning, the extremists in Malaysia are the ones who don't want to start the killing machine. There is a Pew survey on it. There are links on the wiki, in the Faith Ratchet article on Malaysia.

FD just said he’s happy to leave it at that.

Can you imagine?

Point of order, FD: do you think those who support capital punishment are violent extremists? Castration of rapists? CIA torture?

I’m.curious.

freediver wrote on Dec 17^th, 2014 at 7:56pm:

I am asking you to explain how your views on Islam put you in the majority.

And as I have already explained, its based on a simple logic: most muslims are not violent or hostile towards non-muslim, and I merely put two and two together. But I'm not going to provide any proof for this - because I can't. Obviously you disagree with this logic, and again, you could be right, we could all (or at least most of us) be harbouring deeply sinister thoughts towards non-muslims. But I just don't see anything useful in assuming that this is the case - as you seem to do.


freediver wrote on Dec 17^th, 2014 at 7:56pm:

Quote: And while I don't support hudud punishment, I don't believe supporting it necessarily makes someone automatically intolerant and violent. You'll have to explain this one to me.

No, really I don't.


freediver wrote on Dec 17^th, 2014 at 7:56pm:

What Gandalf means by that is that the majority of them support stoning people to death for adultery and executing apostates.

What gandalf meant was exactly what gandalf said.


freediver wrote on Dec 17^th, 2014 at 7:56pm:

Ironically, he once described me as an extremist because less than 50% of Australians appear to agree with me on a particular issue.

Less than 30% I believe. And you are an extremist because you hold extremist and deeply disturbing views - like that every Australian muslim "should feel uncomfortable" for a crime that had absolutely nothing to do with them.

Quote:

And as I have already explained, its based on a simple logic: most muslims are not violent or hostile towards non-muslim, and I merely put two and two together.

So you know the majority of Muslims agree with your interpretation of Islam because of how they act? I think this one is worthy of Brian. He had a lot to say about the Malaysian's version of Islam, based on the fact that his servants did not chop his head off. Like you, there was no need for him to ask them what they actually think, and he did not need a Pew survey to know.


Quote:

And as I have already explained, its based on a simple logic: most muslims are not violent or hostile towards non-muslim, and I merely put two and two together.

I was thinking the Pew survey would be a good place to start. There are more questions there than the basic "do you want to chop people's heads off" ones. From memory even the progressive ones like Indonesia had some pretty backwards views, particularly when it came to women knowing their place.


Quote:

And as I have already explained, its based on a simple logic: most muslims are not violent or hostile towards non-muslim, and I merely put two and two together.

Of course. Using your logic would put Abu in the same pigeon hole as you (assuming he isn't raping and pillaging his way across the middle east right now). He often argued that his version of Islam was benign because it instructed him not to break our laws, even though he also supported making our laws revert back to 7th century Arabian tribalism.


Quote:

But I just don't see anything useful in assuming that this is the case - as you seem to do.

It is not an assumption. What I have seen would you far to the left of most Muslims, though you have been been reluctant to reveal your own views on Islam, yet keen to positively misinterpret the views of other Muslims at every opportunity. No wonder you don't want to go into any details. Just keep grinning and regurgitating platitudes about Muslims being nice people and holding down jobs.

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 1:57pm:

So you know the majority of Muslims agree with your interpretation of Islam because of how they act?

No, I've been at great pains to point out I really *DON'T* know. Maybe you are right and we are all scum.


freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 1:57pm:

I was thinking the Pew survey would be a good place to start.

Sure, as long as we cherry pick it and leave out Indonesia.


freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 1:57pm:

Of course. Using your logic would put Abu in the same pigeon hole as you (assuming he isn't raping and pillaging his way across the middle east right now). He often argued that his version of Islam was benign because it instructed him not to break our laws, even though he also supported making our laws revert back to 7th century Arabian tribalism.

Yes I suppose it does. But I don't think its reasonable to assume that the existence of a single muslim's views is proof that all or most muslims are the same. I happen to believe that people who appear tolerant and nice are more often than not simply tolerant and nice in nature - because the alternative that people are only tolerant and nice because they are cynically being so as a means to an end - a very sinister end - just sounds far fetched to me. But again, I could be wrong, and I'm not going to prove it. And kindly please don't interpret this as me claiming "I know" - I don't. Again, you could be right, all muslims might be horrible, sinister nice people underneath. Its not something you can prove one way or another - and I don't believe its at all constructive trying to do so.


freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 1:57pm:

It is not an assumption.

Please don't lie. You do assume all, or at least a great majority of muslims are sinister, deceptive, wish ill upon non-muslims, and are the greatest threat to our way of life. Maybe what you meant was "its not an assumption - I know it for a fact" - would that be more accurate?

Quote:

Sure, as long as we cherry pick it and leave out Indonesia.

So far we have been cherry picking the questions that identify the most extreme Muslims, who also happen to be the majority in many countries. Go ahead and compare yourself on all questions. There are many ways that the majority of Muslims are more extreme than you - unless of course you have been misrepresenting your real views like every Muslim here before you.


Quote:

Yes I suppose it does. But I don't think its reasonable to assume that the existence of a single muslim's views is proof that all or most muslims are the same.

Abu made a good case that his version is the mainstream one. He also pointed out that Islam commands people to obey local laws, even if they want to overturn them and replace them with Shariah law. Do you agree with that? Given this command, how could judging the intention of Muslims based on whether they live peacefully and obey the law produce anything other than the wrong conclusion? We did not have hundreds of head hacking lunatics in Australia until they left for a place where they could act out their true intentions with Islam's blessing.


Quote:

I happen to believe that people who appear tolerant and nice are more often than not simply tolerant and nice in nature

I think so too, though I have encountered a few exceptions over recent years.


Quote:

because the alternative that people are only tolerant and nice because they are cynically being so as a means to an end

Not as a means to an end, but because their religion compels them to.


Quote:

Again, you could be right, all muslims might be horrible, sinister nice people underneath.

This is about your claim to represent the majority. Don't try to turn it into yet another absurd strawman.


Quote:

Please don't lie. You do assume all, or at least a great majority of muslims are sinister, deceptive, wish ill upon non-muslims, and are the greatest threat to our way of life.

I think the Pew survey is a good place to start with what Muslims actually think. The Muslims I have spoken to about the same issues reinforce it. Hence my suggestion you use it to gauge whether you really do represent the majority.

I think that Islam is the greatest modern threat to freedom, democracy and human rights. Whether individual Muslims are naive dupes or the pointy end of this threat makes little difference.

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 7:29pm:

So far we have been cherry picking the questions that identify the most extreme Muslims, who also happen to be the majority in many countries. Go ahead and compare yourself on all questions.

A quick glance at the figures, and accounting for the respective populations of each of the countries (and not forgetting also they are only counting from those who support sharia) - I reckon my views on apostasy are in the majority - what do you think?

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp1-9.png


freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 7:29pm:

This is about your claim to represent the majority. Don't try to turn it into yet another absurd strawman.

I do represent the majority in the way I described - thats not in dispute - even you agree with this. Your dispute is over something I never even argued against.


freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 7:29pm:

I think the Pew survey is a good place to start with what Muslims actually think

Good point FD - like the fact that the largest muslim country on earth doesn't conform to your stereotype about muslims. Shall we start there?


freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 7:29pm:

I think so too, though I have encountered a few exceptions over recent years

Hmmm this has me curious FD - what about Abu? He would be one of these exceptions no? You've certainly made a compelling case that he is only "nice" and law abiding because of his sinister motives. And yet you are telling me all the time that he is representative of mainstream muslims. So which is it?

Quote:

A quick glance at the figures, and accounting for the respective populations of each of the countries (and not forgetting also they are only counting from those who support sharia) - I reckon my views on apostasy are in the majority - what do you think?

Like I just explained, this is pretty much the definition of cherry picking. Do I really need to explain it again?


Quote:

I do represent the majority in the way I described - thats not in dispute - even you agree with this. Your dispute is over something I never even argued against.

So you concede that your interpretation of Islam puts you in the minority? You are only in the majority in the sense that you personally refrain from head hacking?


Quote:

Good point FD - like the fact that the largest muslim country on earth doesn't conform to your stereotype about muslims. Shall we start there?

How about we start with what I actually said?


Quote:

Hmmm this has me curious FD - what about Abu? He would be one of these exceptions no? You've certainly made a compelling case that he is only "nice" and law abiding because of his sinister motives. And yet you are telling me all the time that he is representative of mainstream muslims. So which is it?

I think he is probably closer to the mainstream than you are. He certainly made a stronger case for it. Obviously the difficulty in getting a straight answer out of either of you is a bit of a barrier to an answer to this. I notice you avoiding getting into the details at any cost.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 8:23pm:

A quick glance at the figures, and accounting for the respective populations of each of the countries (and not forgetting also they are only counting from those who support sharia) - I reckon my views on apostasy are in the majority - what do you think? http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp1-9.png Good point FD - like the fact that the largest muslim country on earth doesn't conform to your stereotype about muslims. Shall we start there?

13 countries with Islam as the state religion have the death penalty for apostasy, where is even the slightest effort of the moderates in removing this death penalty.

Pakistan and Afghanistan are on your list both  have the death penalty for apostasy,lots of support for the death penalty at 76% and 79%.

Saudi Arabia and Iran are not on your list that is the homeland of the sunni and shia, the Saudis chop your head off and the Mad Mullah's from Iran hang you for apostasy.

I don't think your views on apostasy are mainstream, if they were there would be no death penalty for apostasy.

Indonesia threw that atheist Alexander Aan in jail for getting beaten up by a muslim mob when they found out he was an apostate.
This is a clear violation of article 18 of the universal declaration of human rights by Indonesia, the largest muslim country.

Look at G quoting the Pew Survey, FD. What a nerve.

Fancy quoting non-Malaysian Muslim statistics.

Talk about cherry-picking.

Gandalf is a self proclaimed Imam what did you expect.

Quote:

Indonesia threw that atheist Alexander Aan in jail for getting beaten up by a muslim mob when they found out he was an apostate.

True, but Gandalf is in the majority because they did not chop his head off. In fact only a tiny minority of Muslims turned the key on his cell door. Indonesia is a shining example of secular, progressive Islam.

jackmountain wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 9:03pm:

Gandalf is a self proclaimed Imam what did you expect.

So’s Mahdi.

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 9:01pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 18th, 2014 at 8:23pm: A quick glance at the figures, and accounting for the respective populations of each of the countries (and not forgetting also they are only counting from those who support sharia) - I reckon my views on apostasy are in the majority - what do you think? http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp1-9.png Good point FD - like the fact that the largest muslim country on earth doesn't conform to your stereotype about muslims. Shall we start there? 13 countries with Islam as the state religion have the death penalty for apostasy, where is even the slightest effort of the moderates in removing this death penalty. Pakistan and Afghanistan are on your list both  have the death penalty for apostasy,lots of support for the death penalty at 76% and 79%. Saudi Arabia and Iran are not on your list that is the homeland of the sunni and shia, the Saudis chop your head off and the Mad Mullah's from Iran hang you for apostasy. I don't think your views on apostasy are mainstream, if they were there would be no death penalty for apostasy. Indonesia threw that atheist Alexander Aan in jail for getting beaten up by a muslim mob when they found out he was an apostate. This is a clear violation of article 18 of the universal declaration of human rights by Indonesia, the largest muslim country.

gandalf is a self proclaimed imamic muslim and has a way to go before he is very learned on the subject.

When will you start taking your meds again, JM? You owe it to yourself, if not those who care about you.

We all want to see you stable again.

Just think about it, okay?

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 9:13pm:

Quote: Indonesia threw that atheist Alexander Aan in jail for getting beaten up by a muslim mob when they found out he was an apostate. True, but Gandalf is in the majority because they did not chop his head off. In fact only a tiny minority of Muslims turned the key on his cell door. Indonesia is a shining example of secular, progressive Islam.

Do they pull teeth if you do something wrong up there or something because every one you see on tele has teeth missing. Maybe its a sharia punishment.

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 8:37pm:

Like I just explained, this is pretty much the definition of cherry picking. Do I really need to explain it again?

Oh I'm sure you'll explain something FD - but I'm guessing probably not the fact that you constantly quote the PEW survey on apostasy laws to smear muslims - and yet here we have that very PEW survey showing (almost certainly) a majority of those surveyed opposing death for apostasy. Does "cherry picking" mean quoting the entire survey sample, rather than just the Malaysians? Must be I guess.


freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 8:37pm:

So you concede that your interpretation of Islam puts you in the minority?

Like I keep saying - I don't know, but it seems extremely unlikely. Just take your favourite PEW survey - almost certainly a majority of the total sample oppose both stoning for adultery and death for apostasy. Thats pretty much your entire case you've been hammering on for about a year down the gurgler. Do you have any other evidence that my views are in the minority? Ah let me guess - Abu?


freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 8:37pm:

How about we start with what I actually said?

Ok - "I think the Pew survey is a good place to start with what Muslims actually think" - how about the views of the largest muslim country on earth? Or the fact that most muslims in the survey oppose stoning and executing apostates - even though all these months you've been cherry picking Malaysia and pretending that represents all muslims? Is that a good place to start?

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 9:13pm:

Quote: Indonesia threw that atheist Alexander Aan in jail for getting beaten up by a muslim mob when they found out he was an apostate. True, but Gandalf is in the majority because they did not chop his head off. In fact only a tiny minority of Muslims turned the key on his cell door. Indonesia is a shining example of secular, progressive Islam.

Perhaps he was lucky the police turned up.

Is this an example of shiny progressive Islam or the same old Shiite.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyq6WMatTEQ

Quote:

Oh I'm sure you'll explain something FD - but I'm guessing probably not the fact that you constantly quote the PEW survey on apostasy laws to smear muslims

This is about whether your views reflect the majority of Muslims.


Quote:

and yet here we have that very PEW survey showing (almost certainly) a majority of those surveyed opposing death for apostasy. Does "cherry picking" mean quoting the entire survey sample, rather than just the Malaysians? Must be I guess.

The opinions of Malaysian Muslims do reflect poorly on Islam. But I have been very specific in stating that it is the view of a majority of Malaysian Muslims. You on the other hand insist you represent the majority of Muslims, without knowing or caring whether it is true, and avoiding every opportunity to find out.


Quote:

Like I keep saying - I don't know, but it seems extremely unlikely. Just take your favourite PEW survey - almost certainly a majority of the total sample oppose both stoning for adultery and death for apostasy. Thats pretty much your entire case you've been hammering on for about a year down the gurgler.

You are the only one trying to misrepresent it Gandalf. Can you quote which "case" of mine you think is down the gurgler, or do you not know?


Quote:

Ok - "I think the Pew survey is a good place to start with what Muslims actually think" - how about the views of the largest muslim country on earth? Or the fact that most muslims in the survey oppose stoning and executing apostates -

Yes, how about it? Do you need me to explain how you could use the survey to find out out whether your views reflect the majority of Muslims? Did you only mean you are with the majority in not stoning apostates to death, but most Muslims do hold backwards, yet slightly less barbaric views on a plethora of other issues? Or is it that you actually agree with many of the retrograde opinions revealed in the survey?


Quote:

even though all these months you've been cherry picking Malaysia and pretending that represents all muslims?

Can you quote me saying it represents anything other than the majority of Malaysian Muslims? Are you just desperately trying to change the topic? What exactly is it that you are afraid of revealing - your own views, or how backwards the majority of Muslims really are?

The Malaysians disagree with the universal declaration of human rights article 18, they say apostasy is not human rights.

What do you think of this pdf Gandalf, do you agree with article 18 udhr or this guy?
www.islam.gov.my/sites/default/files/apostasy_is_not_human_rights.pdf

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 9:49pm:

The opinions of Malaysian Muslims do reflect poorly on Islam. But I have been very specific in stating that it is the view of a majority of Malaysian Muslims. You on the other hand insist you represent the majority of Muslims, without knowing or caring whether it is true, and avoiding every opportunity to find out.

But I have found out FD - I even provided the graph for apostasy laws. I thought it would be self-explanatory, but apparently not: 18% of Indonesians who support sharia (72%) oppose death for apostasy. Indonesia is by far the biggest muslim country on earth. Bangladesh is the third largest muslim country, and it also records majorities who oppose death for apostasy. I think its fairly clear from the graph that a majority of muslims in those samples oppose death for apostasy. Figures for stoning also clearly show a majority oppose it - look it up yourself.

Death for apostasy and stoning are two of the things I oppose. Evidently most muslims from this survey agree with me. That puts me in the majority no? I'm not sure what you don't understand FD - I really don't understand how you could be confused about why this survey demonstrates I am in the majority - on the two issues you continually rabbit on about with cherry picked data (Malaysia only).

Would you like to present some other evidence that demonstrates my views are in the minority? So far you've only ever talked about this PEW survey - and it turns out it puts my views in the majority in the only two "head hacking" criteria you have ever talked about (stoning and apostasy).


freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 9:49pm:

You are the only one trying to misrepresent it Gandalf. Can you quote which "case" of mine you think is down the gurgler, or do you not know?

The case that my views are in the minority - using Malaysian muslims responses on apostasy and stoning in the PEW survey as your only evidence. Would you like to offer some other evidence to revive this case FD?


freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 9:49pm:

Did you only mean you are with the majority in not stoning apostates to death, but most Muslims do hold backwards, yet slightly less barbaric views on a plethora of other issues?

Oh so there are other criteria! Nevermind that you've spent the last year+ rabbiting on *ONLY* about apostasy and stoning (and exclusively Malaysians) to demonstrate muslim's backward views. So what other "plethora of other issues" from that survey prove that I'm in the minority FD? I'm all ears!


freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 9:49pm:

Can you quote me saying it represents anything other than the majority of Malaysian Muslims?

;D ;D you're so right FD - your argument over the past year boils down to this: "muslims are backward and horrible - and here's a tiny subset of a PEW survey on apostasy and stoning to prove it - and I'll just quietly ignore the fact that the survey demonstrates that overall, muslims oppose these backward views"

I agree FD - you really are a shameless, deceitful cherrypicker.

18% of Indonesians who support sharia (72%) oppose death for apostasy.

------------

Lol as if even 30% if Indonesians would take a poll. :D

Bad takiya that one.


That is priceless from a self professed imam who follows the Quar'an that supports terrorism.

Now now, G, there you go quoting the Pew Survey again. That’s approved here only for Malaysian Muslims, okay? FD’s made this perfectly clear a number of time.

On non-Malaysian Muslims, the Pew Survey’s a hoax.

Another Poo Report says "In Indonesia and Pakistan, countries which have been rocked by suicide bombings in the past decade, one-in-ten Muslims or less say that targeting civilians is often or sometimes justified (9% and 3%, respectively).


If and I say if it has any credibility lets assume so and do some math based only on Indonesia's muslim Quaran following population that's : -

22 MILLION 753 THOUSAND and 102.05 sometimes Terrorists at 9% lol .

7 MILLION 584 THOUSAND 367.35 sometimes Terrorists at 3% lol

The Australian Population in total : -

23,425,700 LOL

Nah she'll be right mate. :D

Quote:

But I have found out FD - I even provided the graph for apostasy laws. I thought it would be self-explanatory, but apparently not: 18% of Indonesians who support sharia (72%) oppose death for apostasy. Indonesia is by far the biggest muslim country on earth. Bangladesh is the third largest muslim country, and it also records majorities who oppose death for apostasy. I think its fairly clear from the graph that a majority of muslims in those samples oppose death for apostasy. Figures for stoning also clearly show a majority oppose it - look it up yourself.

So head chopping is the only measure of your views on Islam? You are part of the majority because you are with those who merely want to jail apostates?

And you wonder why people don't trust Muslims.


Quote:

Would you like to present some other evidence that demonstrates my views are in the minority?

Sure, that would be simple enough, if anyone knew what your views are. You are the one who made these claims about being part of the majority. I am happy enough to accept your retraction, if you are so averse to going into any of the details.


Quote:

The case that my views are in the minority - using Malaysian muslims responses on apostasy and stoning in the PEW survey as your only evidence.

Can you quote me making that case, or is this another example of me saying things without actually saying them?

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 10:37pm:

Death for apostasy and stoning are two of the things I oppose. Evidently most muslims from this survey agree with me. That puts me in the majority no?

Do you oppose death for homosexuals,blasphemers and witches?

If most of the muslims agree with you on the repulsive death penalty for apostasy why are you doing nothing to remove the death penalty for apostasy in 13 countries that have Islam as the state religion?

jackmountain wrote on Dec 18^th, 2014 at 11:23pm:

Another Poo Report says "In Indonesia and Pakistan, countries which have been rocked by suicide bombings in the past decade,

Indonesia?  "Rocked by suicide bombings"?   I'd hardly call six bombings over a decade plus, "rocking" Indonesia.

I know, Matty you don't like having a sense of proportion as far as your Islamophobia goes but really?

You should also provide a link to where you've quoted this information from.  It's dishonest to claim it as your own work when it is demonstrably not.   ::)

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 20^th, 2014 at 10:56am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 18th, 2014 at 10:37pm: Death for apostasy and stoning are two of the things I oppose. Evidently most muslims from this survey agree with me. That puts me in the majority no? Do you oppose death for homosexuals,blasphemers and witches? If most of the muslims agree with you on the repulsive death penalty for apostasy why are you doing nothing to remove the death penalty for apostasy in 13 countries that have Islam as the state religion?

Witches?   So, according to you, the majority of Muslims believe death is an appropriate punishment for witchcraft but you seem to think that Man Haron Monis would have been acceptable to IS as a member, despite advertising he was an "export in...black magic"?   You don't see any contradiction there, Baron?  Mmmm?  ::)

freediver wrote on Dec 20^th, 2014 at 10:45am:

So head chopping is the only measure of your views on Islam? You are part of the majority because you are with those who merely want to jail apostates?

Thats just plain dishonest FD. Shame on you.


freediver wrote on Dec 20^th, 2014 at 10:45am:

Sure, that would be simple enough, if anyone knew what your views are.

Right FD, I mean its not as if I ever went through point by point on a whole range of issues detailing exactly what my views are no is it?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1354330218/1#1

or given a detailed essay on my thoughts on the role of ahadith in islamic law...
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1408074688/0

or articulate my views on what is meant by Muhammad's example.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1374112477/174#174

FD will keep coming back every few weeks and claiming the last post of mine was never made. So there it is.


freediver wrote on Dec 20^th, 2014 at 10:45am:

Can you quote me making that case, or is this another example of me saying things without actually saying them?

Sure, every time you raise the PEW survey. The giveaway is when you rabbit on and on about Malaysians to make some sort of point about muslims (what point FD? - you tell me) - but quietly ignore Indonesians, or indeed the overall survey sample.

Yes, G, but perhaps you haven’t explained your views clearly enough. FD still doesn’t know what they are.

Perhaps it would be best if you just agreed with Abu. That way, we could be done with questions once and for all.

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 20^th, 2014 at 11:55am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 20th, 2014 at 10:56am: polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 18th, 2014 at 10:37pm: Death for apostasy and stoning are two of the things I oppose. Evidently most muslims from this survey agree with me. That puts me in the majority no? Do you oppose death for homosexuals,blasphemers and witches? If most of the muslims agree with you on the repulsive death penalty for apostasy why are you doing nothing to remove the death penalty for apostasy in 13 countries that have Islam as the state religion? Witches?   So, according to you, the majority of Muslims believe death is an appropriate punishment for witchcraft but you seem to think that Man Haron Monis would have been acceptable to IS as a member, despite advertising he was an "export in...black magic"?   You don't see any contradiction there, Baron?  Mmmm?  ::)

Clearly you know nothing about Islam John.

As a mussey you are allowed to lie too your hearts content to all us kafirs.

Gandalf, this is your own words, from the link you quoted:


Quote:

Adultery - a crime under islamic law in which the sentence is either stoning or flogging

Quote:

Apostasy - no Quranic prescription, but most muslim scholars argue that islam prescribes death based on certain hadith.

But from this thread:


Quote:

Like I keep saying - I don't know, but it seems extremely unlikely. Just take your favourite PEW survey - almost certainly a majority of the total sample oppose both stoning for adultery and death for apostasy. Thats pretty much your entire case you've been hammering on for about a year down the gurgler. Do you have any other evidence that my views are in the minority? Ah let me guess - Abu?

What are we supposed to make of this Gandalf? You have been having a go at me all thread over "cherry picking" the adultery and apostasy results from Malaysia, yet you appear to agree with both of them.

FD, why haven’t you ever quoted the Pew Survey on Kazakstan?

Thoughts?

Wow FD you even cherry pick my posts.


freediver wrote on Dec 20^th, 2014 at 5:16pm:

What are we supposed to make of this Gandalf? You have been having a go at me all thread over "cherry picking" the adultery and apostasy results from Malaysia, yet you appear to agree with both of them

From the first thread:

Quote:

This is another one of those "islamic laws" that has no quranic basis. In fact the quran prescribes a completely different form of punishment for adultery (flogging). I am extremely sceptical that stoning is part of shariah law - and given that the practice is so rare as to be virtually non-existent in the islamic world today (and I'm pretty sure has been for a long long time), it would seem the great majority of the muslim world agrees with me

As for apostasy, here's me not expressing my views - apparently:


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 21^st, 2013 at 11:59am:

I question the claim that islam prescribes death for apostasy. I argued that point in about the first thread I participated in on this board. I believe the confusion arises from a specific practice during the prophet's time where enemies of islam would infiltrate the muslim camp, pretend to convert, and then use their position as trusted brothers to sow discord and weaken the islamic nation. Thus the prescription was more about punishing traitors and saboteurs - of which death is standard punishment for most places - islamic or not. In this context, the act in question is a de-facto act of war - as any nation on earth would treat it as. It therefore doesn't really come under the regular day-to-day laws that govern an islamic nation, but how to respond to an attack by a foreign aggressor. I think its pretty standard fair to execute spies and sabateurs and traitors.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 20^th, 2014 at 4:51pm:

In fact 4:90 couldn't be more clear on the prohibition of killing non-hostile apostates/unbelievers: So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.

Quote:

Wow FD you even cherry pick my posts.

I am pointing out your self contradictions Gandalf. I am hardly going to pick randomly am I?


Quote:

I am extremely sceptical that stoning is part of shariah law - and given that the practice is so rare as to be virtually non-existent in the islamic world today (and I'm pretty sure has been for a long long time), it would seem the great majority of the muslim world agrees with me

Except of course all those scholars:


Quote:

Adultery - a crime under islamic law in which the sentence is either stoning or flogging - depending on which islamic scholars you follow.

Also, this is the same tired old Taqiyya you and other Muslims peddle constantly. The absence of a particular punishment today from 99% of Muslim countries does not mean that 99% of Muslims reject that particular punishment. It is a logical fallacy, and the Pew survey clearly disproves it. Much of modern Muslim 'civilisation' owes itself to outside influence. It was foreign interference for example, not Muslims, that nearly brought an end to traditional Islamic slavery, despite protestations from Muslims that Islam 'encourages' the freeing of slaves. I was going to let this one slide, but you might accuse me of cherry picking if I ignore it.

Basically, you claim to represent the majority of Muslims, but you have no clue what the majority of Muslims think, and your own views on Islam are all over the place and wrapped in endless deflections. Your backpedaling reflects your unwillingness to clarify any of this, because clarity will always reflect badly on Islam and Muslims.

Why don't you use the Pew survey to find out exactly how closely your own views match those of other Muslims? Or is it a bit hard to answer when "it depends on which scholar you ask" (or what audience you are pandering to) is not one of the options?

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2014 at 9:49am:

Basically, you claim to represent the majority of Muslims, but you have no clue what the majority of Muslims think

*yawn* not getting through are we FD?

Yes, FD, but you weren’t specific enough. G has to use the Pew Survey to find out what Malaysian Muslims think.

The rest of the survey is flawed.