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http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl Member Run Boards >> Islam >> How does Islam improve the world? http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1420114052 Message started by Soren on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 10:07pm

Title: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Soren on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 10:07pm

Tell us how Islam makes the world better in our time.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Yadda on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 10:28pm

Soren wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 10:07pm:

Tell us how Islam makes the world better in our time.

~6 billion human beings. .....thats, 6,000,000,000 human beings.

~ 250 mountain leopards

~ 3,000 mountain gorillas

.....you can see where i'm going with this.

ISLAM creates dead bodies, .....the dead bodies of lots of humans.

And the earth needs less human beings.

The worlds fauna need less human beings.

Seen those WWF advts ???

Sponsor a Turtle ?

Sponsor a Tiger ?

Sponsor an Orang-utan ?

Short-cut.......

Instead of supporting WWF, with your hard earned.......convert to ISLAM and murder a few billion human beings.

Become a Greenie, convert to ISLAM.

Save nature, convert to ISLAM.

Allah be praised!

Even when you have murdered all of the infidels, you can start on fellow moslems, who do not measure up, as 'fellow moslems'.

Take the example of ISIS in Syria and Iraq.i
Persons like this - Haron Monis - .......

.....are moslems.

IMAGE....

.....they are inspired by what their religion teaches them to believe.

n.b.
ISLAM is Allah's perfect religion, so you have a duty to become a moslem.

To reject ISLAM, is to insult ISLAM.

You know it is true.

Convert to ISLAM today, and save Orang-utan's, Turtles, and Tigers!

You owe it to the planet!

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by gandalf on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:11pm

Soren wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 10:07pm:

Tell us how Islam makes the world better in our time.

It is an article of faith amongst muslims that islam will be a force for good to be sure, but that is not the discussion to be had - and only the extremists on either sides would even attempt it.

All you are doing is creating a strawman.

All you should be concerned about is the issue of people's right to freely adhere to and practice a belief system without fear of discrimination or persecution. Most people will rigorously stand up for this right - despite not sharing in the beliefs they are defending - indeed not even caring what these beliefs and practices are (as long as they don't impinge on other people's rights, of course). And yet here you are seemingly conflating the two - as if your acceptance of a person's right to a belief is somehow contingent upon that belief being plausible (to you).

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Sprintcyclist on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:11pm

Soren wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 10:07pm:

Tell us how Islam makes the world better in our time.

I cannot see any value to this cult

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Sprintcyclist on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:24pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:11pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 10:07pm:

Tell us how Islam makes the world better in our time.

Quote:

.........All you should be concerned about is the issue of people's right to freely adhere to and practice a belief system without fear of discrimination or persecution.....

islam is the cult that persecutes

I know what I should be concerned about.
not you

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Stratos on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:40pm

You could argue the case for every religion. I would argue that none have brought anything good, and that anything good that came out of cultures that had such beliefs is not because of them but in spite of them.

Does Islam improve the world? I would say no, same as buddhism, daoism, christianity, scientology, the raelians sikhism

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Karnal on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:49pm

Soren wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 10:07pm:

Tell us how Islam makes the world better in our time.

Some say it’s the homos, some the tabouli, one thing is certain. It’s all a matter of personal taste.

Correlation not causation, innit.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by gandalf on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:49pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:24pm:

islam is the cult that persecutes

And yet you are the one who has advocated persecution against people for holding a belief - time and time again. You don't call for punishing the persecutors, you call for collective punishment - ban them, bomb them, nuke them - raze a mosque for every terrorist attack - its all there Sprint, I can quote you if you like.

People have a right to a belief - without fear of persecution.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Sir Bobby on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:53pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:11pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 10:07pm:

Tell us how Islam makes the world better in our time.

As long as they join team Australia - then it's alright.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Sprintcyclist on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:59pm

Quote:

...........advocated persecution against people ...

against a death cult that murders innocents according to the instruction of its paedophilic leader.

You underestimate how much I detest islam

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Yadda on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 12:21am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:49pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:24pm:

islam is the cult that persecutes

Moslems ?

No, they don't gandalf.

And, imo, you are insane, if you believe moslems have a right to pursue such a 'religious freedom'.

DEVELOPING THAT ARGUMENT...

Moslems are not entitled to believe that they have a lawful right to murder people, who do not believe as they [moslems] believe.

BUT THAT, IS THE BELIEF WHICH ISLAM INCULCATES, INTO THE PSYCHE, OF EVERY MOSLEM.

Yadda wrote on Dec 30^th, 2014 at 8:25am:

ISLAMIC LAW teaches - EVERY MOSLEM - that murdering those who are not moslems [i.e. those who reject ISLAM], is a lawful act.

That 'precept' of faith is mainstream within ISLAM.

ISIS know it.

Al-Qaeda know it.

The Saudis know it.

And EVERY moslem who is living among us, here in Australia, knows it.

ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) "
fiqhussunnah/fus1_06

ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."

THE HADITH....

"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." - DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

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Quote:

A simple definition of SANITY/INSANITY.

Typically, an unrestrained sane person will act in ways which are harmless to others, and in ways which are creative, and productive [for himself, others, and society].

And typically, and conversely, an unrestrained INSANE person will act in ways which are harmful and destructive to himself, and, or, others around him.

'Normal' criminal behaviour - in mankind
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1293669294/0#0

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by gandalf on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 12:56am

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:59pm:

Quote:

...........advocated persecution against people ...

against a death cult that murders innocents according to the instruction of its paedophilic leader.

You underestimate how much I detest islam

But Sprint you are not calling for the mere punishment of murderers. You want people to be persecuted for their beliefs - even if they have committed no crime. You have called for muslims to be collectively punished for the crimes of the few.

How are you any better than these so called cultists that you moralise against?

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 1:12am

Yadda wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 12:21am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:49pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:24pm:

islam is the cult that persecutes

Moslems ?

No, they don't gandalf.

Actually they do. It is a right that is guaranteed by the UN, the Australian constitution and of course, common decency, Yadda.

Your persecution of Muslims does you no justice. None at all. It makes you a disgrace to the very ideals you claim to be protecting. ::)

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by greggerypeccary on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 5:41am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 12:56am:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:59pm:

Quote:

...........advocated persecution against people ...

against a death cult that murders innocents according to the instruction of its paedophilic leader.

You underestimate how much I detest islam

Sprint is a true Christian.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Stratos on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 5:52am

Yadda wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 12:21am:

Moslems are not entitled to believe that they have a lawful right to murder people, who do not believe as they [moslems] believe.

You say this, but then without a hint of hesitation condone the biblical genocides.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by freediver on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:29am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:11pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 10:07pm:

Tell us how Islam makes the world better in our time.

Gandalf we can, and should, discuss whether an ideology is a force for good, in addition to whether people have a right to adopt it. It is you who is conflating the two. Insisting we should limit one aspect of the debate is no better than insisting we should limit the other. If the only thing you have in Islam's defense is that you should have the right to believe it is good regardless of the facts, then you have already lost.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Lisa Jones on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:33am

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:11pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 10:07pm:

Tell us how Islam makes the world better in our time.

I cannot see any value to this cult

........and the death cults which it spawns.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Yadda on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 8:45am

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 1:12am:

Yadda wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 12:21am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:49pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:24pm:

islam is the cult that persecutes

....
....

People have a right to a belief - without fear of persecution.

Moslems ?

No, they don't gandalf.

Actually they do.

It is a right that is guaranteed by the UN, the Australian constitution and of course, common decency, Yadda.

Your persecution of Muslims does you no justice. None at all. It makes you a disgrace to the very ideals you claim to be protecting. ::)

Common decency, is it ?

Brian,

QUESTION;

HOW CAN MOSLEMS BE THE RECIPIENTS OF A 'RIGHT', WHICH THEY, MOSLEMS DENY TO OTHERS ?

The essence of the moslem right to exercise his own 'freedom of religion', is that ISLAM makes it lawful for the moslem to violently deny the very same right [i.e. all rights sans ISLAM] to those who do not believe, as moslems believe....

EXAMPLE #1 - MOSLEMS PRACTICE THEIR 'FREEDOM OF RELIGION', BY DENYING [with sanctioned religious violence] THE VERY SAME RIGHT TO THOSE WHO ARE NOT MOSLEMS....

http://thereligionofpeace.com/index_files/gay-man-thrown_sm.jpg

Quote:

While Americans debate the ethics of using enhanced
interrogation techniques on mass murderers, pious
Muslims are casually tossing homosexuals from rooftops.

IMAGE and comment source.....

THE RELIGION OF PEACE
http://thereligionofpeace.com/

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2014/Dec-10/280515-isis-kills-men-accused-of-blasphemy-homosexuality.ashx

EXAMPLE #2 - MOSLEMS PRACTICE THEIR 'FREEDOM OF RELIGION', BY DENYING [with sanctioned religious violence] THE VERY SAME RIGHT TO THOSE WHO ARE NOT MOSLEMS....

Quote:

"This nation [i.e. the moslem nation/community, the ummah] has been and will continue to be a nation of Jihad until Judgement day.

MAKE NO MISTAKE: THE NATION HAS NOT CHANGED ITS THINKING, ITS RELIGION, OR ITS FAITH. [i.e. a moslem, IS, a moslem!!!]

IT HAS BEEN AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE A NATION OF JIHAD UNTIL JUDGEMENT DAY."

Australian Islamist Leaders Incite to Jihad to Expel Jews from Palestine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN6B8WBzbpw

EXAMPLE #3 - MOSLEMS PRACTICE THEIR 'FREEDOM OF RELIGION', BY DENYING [with sanctioned religious violence] THE VERY SAME RIGHT TO THOSE WHO ARE NOT MOSLEMS....

TODAY, 2014....

Quote:

Egypt: Muslim convert to Christianity rots in execution chamber, begins hunger strike
Dec 04, 2014 04:05 pm | Raymond Ibrahim

[Via FrontPage Magazine] According to attorney Karam Ghobrial (“Gabriel”), his client, Bishoy Armia Boulous, a Muslim convert to Christianity, remains illegally incarcerated and has “vowed to starve himself to death,” ....

Google

EXAMPLE #4 - MOSLEMS PRACTICE THEIR 'FREEDOM OF RELIGION', BY DENYING [with sanctioned religious violence] THE VERY SAME RIGHT TO THOSE WHO ARE NOT MOSLEMS....

In the ISLAMIC 'state' [of mind]....

The more things change, the more they remain the same!.....

and from my own archive.....

Quote:

Egypt Rules Christian Convert Must Remain Legally Muslim
Feb. 03 2008
An Egyptian judge ruled this week in an unprecedented case that a Muslim who converted to Christianity cannot legally change his religious status....
.....Muhammad Hegazy, 25, lost his case on Tuesday when Judge Muhammad Husseini of a court in Cairo said according to sharia, or Islamic law, Islam is the final and most complete religion and therefore Muslims already practice full freedom of religion and cannot convert to an older belief (Christianity or Judaism),

.....The judge didn’t listen to our defense, and we didn’t even have a chance to talk before the court,

said Gamel Eid, head of the Arab Network for Human Rights Information (ANHRI) to U.S. Copts Association.

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080203/egypt-rules-christian-convert-must-remain-legally-muslim.htm
an old link, but Kosher article

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+++

Q.
AND HOW DOES ISLAM SANCTION SUCH VIEWS/ATTITUDES, 'RELIGIOUSLY' ?

A.
ALLAH SANCTIONS THIS RELIGIOUS VIOLENCE, AGAINST THOSE WHO REJECT ISLAM;

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

".......And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"
Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan."
Koran 4.74-76

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Yadda on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 8:56am

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 1:12am:

Yadda wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 12:21am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:49pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:24pm:

islam is the cult that persecutes

....
....

People have a right to a belief - without fear of persecution.

Moslems ?

No, they don't gandalf.

Actually they do.

It is a right that is guaranteed by the UN, the Australian constitution and of course, common decency, Yadda.

Your persecution of Muslims does you no justice. None at all. It makes you a disgrace to the very ideals you claim to be protecting. ::)

Common decency, is it ?

Brian,

QUESTION;

Where is your own human decency ?

When you shamelessly defend the right of the moslem, to exercise religious violence, as an expression of 'religious freedom' ?

[i.e. by defending the right of a moslem, to 'practice' his religion]

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IMAGE...

London

Moslems on London streets, openly demanding their right to exercise their 'freedom of religion',
.....the 'religious' right of the moslem, ...to kill people who do not believe as they [moslems] believe.

n.b.
Mainstream ISLAM teaches 'the moslem' that is an insult to Allah's perfect religion [and a capital crime], to reject ISLAM.

THOSE PLACARDS, AT A MOSLEM STREET PROTEST IN LONDON READ.....

"Slay those who insult Islam"
"Behead those who insult Islam"
"Massacre those who insult Islam"
"Butcher those who mock Islam"
"Europe you will pay, demolition is on its way"
"Europe you will pay, extermination is on its way"
"Exterminate those who slander Islam"
"Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer"
"Islam will dominate the world"
"Freedom go to hell"
"Europe take some lessons from 9/11"
"Be prepared for the real Holocaust"
"BBC = British Blasphemic Crusaders"

THE RELIGION OF PEACE
http://thereligionofpeace.com/

AND THOSE VERY SAME 'MONSTERS' ARE HERE TOO, WITHIN AUSTRALIA!

AND THOSE 'MONSTERS' ARE EFFECTIVELY 'SWIMMING' [finding willing refuge] WITHIN THE THE MOSLEM COMMUNITY, HERE IN AUSTRALIA.;

IMAGE...

Sydney, 2012, moslem street protests.

Moslems, religious bigots, 'demonstrating', just how 'peaceful' and tolerant ISLAM and moslems really are - towards those who don't hold with the views of ISLAM and moslems.

Moslems on a Sydney street, openly demanding their right to exercise their 'freedom of religion'.

Demanding the 'religious' right, to kill people who do not believe as they [moslems] believe.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by gandalf on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:07am

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:29am:

Gandalf we can, and should, discuss whether an ideology is a force for good

Yes we should - but ideologies are not religions. Debating the value of ideologies that are based on rational and tangible concepts and principles, is worthwhile. Debating the value of religions that are based on not much more than blind faith is an exercise in futility. At the very best you will be engaging in nothing more than a circular argument.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by wally1 on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:16am

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Yadda on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:34am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:07am:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:29am:

Gandalf we can, and should, discuss whether an ideology is a force for good

Yes we should - but

ideologies are not religions.

Debating the value of ideologies that are based on rational and tangible concepts and principles, is worthwhile.

Debating the value of religions that are based on not much more than blind faith is an exercise in futility.

At the very best you will be engaging in nothing more than a circular argument.

gandalf,

I simply see you trying to sow even more confusion, about the intent, and merit of ISLAM, which is a 'religion' .    :P

Sure, gandalf, ISLAM, is a religion.    :P
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But [more than any other religion of man], as a religion [while promoting its 'religious values'], ISLAM intrudes into the politics of the world, and into every area of politics that is practised by man.

e.g.
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

Making ISLAM much more of a political ideology [than a pure religion], in the eyes of many of those who have perused ISLAM's ideology.

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IMAGE...

London

Moslems on London streets, openly demanding their right to exercise their 'freedom of religion',
.....the 'religious' right of the moslem,       ...to kill people who do not believe as they [moslems] believe.

n.b.
Mainstream ISLAM teaches 'the moslem' that is an insult to Allah's perfect religion [and a capital crime], to reject ISLAM.

THOSE PLACARDS, AT A MOSLEM STREET PROTEST IN LONDON READ.....

"Slay those who insult Islam"
"Behead those who insult Islam"
"Massacre those who insult Islam"
"Butcher those who mock Islam"
"Europe you will pay, demolition is on its way"
"Europe you will pay, extermination is on its way"
"Exterminate those who slander Islam"
"Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer"
"Islam will dominate the world"
"Freedom go to hell"
"Europe take some lessons from 9/11"
"Be prepared for the real Holocaust"
"BBC = British Blasphemic Crusaders"

THE RELIGION OF PEACE
http://thereligionofpeace.com/

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by freediver on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:40am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:07am:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:29am:

Gandalf we can, and should, discuss whether an ideology is a force for good

I disagree, for several reasons. There are a lot of political and military aspects to Islam, and also apparently economic aspects. Furthermore, even the less 'rational' aspects have a strong influence on society. Christianity's emphasis on forgiveness and turning the other cheek, despite being superficially irrational, is a strong force for good, IMO, and is far more tangible than the usual 'be good' type platitudes.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Soren on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 10:55am

Stratos wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:40pm:

Well, if no set of ideas have any impact on the world, how is it changing?
Or is there no change in the world over time and no difference between the geographic areas under different belief systems? That is clearly wrong.

Ideas matter more than anything. Religions are about the nature of the world and of people so religions have a huge impact on the society they dominate. Islam has a huge impact on its believers, they obviously see the world differently to non-Muslims and build societies in accordance with their beliefs.
Do those beliefs make for a better society?

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Sir Bobby on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:28am

Dear Yadda,

can you please make your replies short & punchy.

I don't think anyone ever reads all that dribble.

forgiven

namaste

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Karnal on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:42am

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:40am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:07am:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:29am:

Gandalf we can, and should, discuss whether an ideology is a force for good

It’s only a force for good if you practice it yourself, FD. If your entire pitch is about what others do or don’t do, you’ve missed the point of all those teachings, Christian, Muslim or otherwise.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Rocketanski on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:45am

One of the reasons Islam has pretty much done nothing good for the world is because it isn't concerned with this world. It's concerned with the afterlife and the world is a stepping stone. That's dangerous and destructive.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Sir Bobby on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:48am

Rocketanski wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:45am:

Islam is a death cult.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 3:35pm

Yadda wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 8:56am:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 1:12am:

Yadda wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 12:21am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:49pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:24pm:

islam is the cult that persecutes

....
....

People have a right to a belief - without fear of persecution.

Moslems ?

No, they don't gandalf.

Actually they do.

It is a right that is guaranteed by the UN, the Australian constitution and of course, common decency, Yadda.

Your persecution of Muslims does you no justice. None at all. It makes you a disgrace to the very ideals you claim to be protecting. ::)

Common decency, is it ?

Yes. I know you have difficulties grasping such concepts for some strange reason, Yadda. Indeed, one could almost think you were an Islamist agent provocateur.

Quote:

Brian,

QUESTION;

Where is your own human decency ?

Right here, on display in virtually every post, Y. where I defend ordinary, everyday, innocent Muslims whom have committed no crime from your persecution. Where is yours? I see no evidence of it, with your continued persecution of innocent Muslims. ::)

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 3:38pm

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:40am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:07am:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:29am:

Gandalf we can, and should, discuss whether an ideology is a force for good

The same could be claimed of any religion, FD. Islam is not unique in that regard. Christianity still controls the thinking of entire societies in Europe and the Americas and dare I even suggest, Australia under Tone Rabbit and his merry cabinet of members of the Religious Right? ::)

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by gandalf on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:25pm

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:40am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:07am:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:29am:

Gandalf we can, and should, discuss whether an ideology is a force for good

Political islam, or "islamism" is an ideology that is only loosely based on the religion of islam. And yes, that should be critiqued and debated like any other political philosophy or ideology.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Sir Bobby on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:35pm

Dear Gandalf,
it's clear that Islam is not improving the world.

It has been hijacked by religious fanatics to cause great evil.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Rocketanski on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:37pm

Bobby. wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:35pm:

Dear Gandalf,
it's clear that Islam is not improving the world.

It has been hijacked by religious fanatics to cause great evil.

I'm with you bobby. It sure doesn't look like it. Muslims are supplying allah with loads of fresh souls if that could be seen as a positive.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Sir Bobby on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:39pm

Rocketanski wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:37pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:35pm:

Dear Gandalf,
it's clear that Islam is not improving the world.

It has been hijacked by religious fanatics to cause great evil.

I'm with you bobby. It sure doesn't look like it. Muslims are supplying allah with loads of fresh souls if that could be seen as a positive.

Yes - this latest crop wants to kill you if
you don't believe in their sky fairy.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Sir Bobby on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:41pm

It's as bad as the virgin Mary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYxEIyNA_mk

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Rocketanski on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:41pm

Bobby. wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:39pm:

Rocketanski wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:37pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:35pm:

Dear Gandalf,
it's clear that Islam is not improving the world.

It has been hijacked by religious fanatics to cause great evil.

I'm with you bobby. It sure doesn't look like it. Muslims are supplying allah with loads of fresh souls if that could be seen as a positive.

Yes - this latest crop wants to kill you if
you don't believe in their sky fairy.

Their sky peddo.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by gandalf on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:44pm

Bobby. wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:35pm:

Dear Gandalf,
it's clear that Islam is not improving the world.

It has been hijacked by religious fanatics to cause great evil.

I'm sure Soren was sweating on someone bringing up the Islamic Golden Age and all the scientific discoveries that happened under islam - to which he would pounce with the usual "it happened despite islam, not because of it" - and that the only scholars were jewish and christian etc etc.

Naturally, he would never tolerate the same logic being used to explain the current crop of "islamic" terrorists though.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Sir Bobby on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:47pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:44pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:35pm:

Dear Gandalf,
it's clear that Islam is not improving the world.

It has been hijacked by religious fanatics to cause great evil.

The Muslims were ahead of the rest of the world at one stage &
then they went down hill.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Caliph adamant on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:49pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:11pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 10:07pm:

Tell us how Islam makes the world better in our time.

Why is this not practiced in muslim dominated countries Gandalf. Pakistan for instance?

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by gandalf on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 5:00pm

Good question A - and if you're expecting me to defend those countries and those abhorrent policies, then I'm afraid your in for a disappointment.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by wally1 on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 5:01pm

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Caliph adamant on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 5:53pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 5:00pm:

Good question A - and if you're expecting me to defend those countries and those abhorrent policies, then I'm afraid your in for a disappointment.

Did you leave one of "those" countries Gandalf, if so have you noticed the correlation between second generation muslims and terrorism.

Is it the parents fault for ardent indoctrination of their offspring to believe that muslims are superior to all others as quoted in the Quran?

Are you a practitioner of the above?

Should we fear your children when they attain adulthood?

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by gandalf on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 6:04pm

Adamant wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 5:53pm:

Should we fear your children

only if you play cricket ;)

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Caliph adamant on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 6:10pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 6:04pm:

Adamant wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 5:53pm:

Should we fear your children

only if you play cricket ;)

Thanks for the flippant reply.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by gandalf on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 6:18pm

Adamant wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 5:53pm:

Did you leave one of "those" countries Gandalf, if so have you noticed the correlation between second generation muslims and terrorism.

...

Should we fear your children when they attain adulthood?

Is this from the same person who is constantly whining about the use of the word "islamophobia" - who insists that his concerns vis-a-vis islam has nothing to do with irrational fear?

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by freediver on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:37pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:25pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:40am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:07am:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:29am:

Gandalf we can, and should, discuss whether an ideology is a force for good

Political islam, or "islamism" is an ideology that is only loosely based on the religion of islam. And yes, that should be critiqued and debated like any other political philosophy or ideology.

Gandalf isn't this just an extreme version of the "impotence equals benign intent" argument? You are basically demanding we start with the assumption that religions have no influence on the society that adopts them. The influence of religion on society is not limited to the "tiny minority," or only to the "political Islamists".

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Sprintcyclist on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:44pm

I cannot see one genuine reply as to how islam may be benefitting the world.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by freediver on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:46pm

Quote:

Karnal, is this just a more circuitous version of Gandalf's argument that we cannot even discuss whether Islam is a force for good?

Why are the Muslims and apologists trying to hard to insist we cannot even have this discussion?

Quote:

If the so called 'golden age' is the best that Islam can produce, it doesn't have much going for it. The Roman empire before it was ahead on many scores.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Caliph adamant on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 8:34pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 6:18pm:

Adamant wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 5:53pm:

Did you leave one of "those" countries Gandalf, if so have you noticed the correlation between second generation muslims and terrorism.

...

Should we fear your children when they attain adulthood?

Is this from the same person who is constantly whining about the use of the word "islamophobia" - who insists that his concerns vis-a-vis islam has nothing to do with irrational fear?

This despicable person was born of hard working muslims who left Pakistan for a better life in the UK. Anjem Choudary has insited racial discord since 1998 he is a disgusting individual! His offspring, brought in the islamic faith are just as disguting as there father. https://shariaunveiled.wordpress.com/tag/anjem-choudary/

Good job his daughter loves him...http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/anjem-choudarys-daughter-urges-jihad-2292072

Many of his devout followers are in goal now Gandalf, how about this mother passing on her love of the west whilst living in it? http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/luton-extremist-ruan-khan-jailed-spreading-terror-via-facebook-1479278

These people live in the West Gandalf but wish to kill. Do have an answer for why that is?

Do you indoctrinate your Children into Islam? ...http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=853_1372324399

Look at what can be achieved if you do. https://www.google.com.au/images?q=tube+bombing+pictures+london+2005&hl=en-AU&gbv=2&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ei=T3OmVMzVH8LdmAXh5YKIBQ&ved=0CBQQsAQ

Thats just a small incite into indoctrination gandalf. Do you do IT?

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:26pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:44pm:

I cannot see one genuine reply as to how islam may be benefitting the world.

It pisses you, Sprint. That means it's worth an awful lot IMO. ;D

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Soren on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 10:16pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:26pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:44pm:

I cannot see one genuine reply as to how islam may be benefitting the world.

It pisses you, Sprint. That means it's worth an awful lot IMO. ;D

edit
[/quote]
ta

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Soren on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:05pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 3:38pm:

Christianity still controls the thinking of entire societies in Europe and the Americas and dare I even suggest, Australia under Tone Rabbit and his merry cabinet of members of the Religious Right? ::)

You are a dangerous idiot, Brain, because you are a dishonest, lying mong. On purpose.

Your deliberate dishonesty is your settled policy. You lie and distort as a matter of course, you have not been honest and candid in decades. You are a little jihadist on the internetz, a little foot soldier of Allan.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Karnal on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:10pm

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:46pm:

Quote:

I believe your discussion was on the merits of turning the other cheek. Do you practice this yourself, or is it something you expect of others? Feel free to respond, FD.

Or not.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by gandalf on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:11pm

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:37pm:

You are basically demanding we start with the assumption that religions have no influence on the society that adopts them.

I am "demanding" that we start with the assumption that religion is a personal belief system that is focused inwards, not outwards. As soon as you start talking about beliefs (religiously motivated or not) that seek to impose things on society, we are no longer talking about religion, but ideology.

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:46pm:

Gandalf's argument that we cannot even discuss whether Islam is a force for good?

I never said that. I said that it would be a completely futile discussion. But please, be my guest, discuss away about how evil you think one particular personal belief system is - I'm sure it will be most constructive, and achieve lots - right?

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Karnal on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:13pm

Soren wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:05pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 3:38pm:

Is this an example of the merits of Christian virtue, FD? Or it is the sort of Islamism you were talking about?

Remember, there are no right or wrong answers.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Soren on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:36pm

post deleted - full of personal abuse

Apologies.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by freediver on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 7:28am

Quote:

I am "demanding" that we start with the assumption that religion is a personal belief system that is focused inwards, not outwards.

Even if you place this limitation on it, which is curious for Islam to say the least, it will still inevitably have an impact on the society that adopts it.

Quote:

As soon as you start talking about beliefs (religiously motivated or not) that seek to impose things

It does not have to do this in order to have a strong influence on society.

Quote:

I never said that. I said that it would be a completely futile discussion.

Many discussions are futile with Muslims. Nonetheless, we should still try.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Karnal on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 10:54am

Soren wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:36pm:

post deleted - full of personal abuse

How about this one, FD? Is this the sort of grace and charity Christianity has imparted upon our good society?

Feel free to respond at your pleasure.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Karnal on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 11:05am

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:59pm:

Quote:

...........advocated persecution against people ...

against a death cult that murders innocents according to the instruction of its paedophilic leader.

You underestimate how much I detest islam

How about this one, FD? How do such views add to our social fabric and our commonweal?

And how do they fit within a Christian world view?

There are no right or wrong answers, FD. Christianity can be whatever you want it to be.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Soren on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 11:10am

Karnal wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 11:05am:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:59pm:

Quote:

...........advocated persecution against people ...

against a death cult that murders innocents according to the instruction of its paedophilic leader.

You underestimate how much I detest islam

Are you the milk monitor now, PB?

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Karnal on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 11:39am

Soren wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 11:10am:

Karnal wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 11:05am:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:59pm:

Quote:

...........advocated persecution against people ...

against a death cult that murders innocents according to the instruction of its paedophilic leader.

You underestimate how much I detest islam

Are you the milk monitor now, PB?

Oh, old boy, come come. I have always delivered lovely fresh milk to all who need it.

At the risk of delivering a sermon, allow me to give you my own two cents.

Religion is not about politics. It is purely a personal thing. The books only advise communities of followers how to behave, and even then, people rarely follow them.

The books, however, are not the point. Anyone who has seriously invested their time in spiritual development understands this, and all religious traditions reinforce this point. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism and many other movements are not social movements per se, but personal, self-help movements.

The fruit of these religions is personal transformation, what the alchemists metaphorically termed turning lead into gold. If these communities don’t facilitate or strive for this, they’re as a clanging symbol. Personal transformation always results in compassion, love, and a sense of peace. Forget the books, this is what inspires others and fosters religious communities.

All the religious traditions I’ve mentioned have this capacity. I have met people in all these religions who value these things and strive for them.

Equally, all these religious paths have their own obstacles. They can all lead to hollow dogma, which is the antithesis of spiritual development. They can lead to religious exclusiveness and religious war if we forget the core of the teachings.

Islam’s core is submitting one’s ego to Oneness through prayer, fasting, pilgrimage and charity. That’s the point of it.

Christianity’s core is self sacrifice through devotion to Christ. Islam essentially agrees with Christianity, but takes issue with the trinity. This was a hotly contested debate within Christianity prior to the first Council of Nicea. The Council resolved the dispute by ruling that Christ was always at one with God.

These paths inevitably lead to the same place, and do give people the compassion and happiness they seek from them. Anything else - which direction you pray in, how you pray and to which aspect of God you pray to - are meaningless.

But this is just my point of view - as the milk monitor.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 11:49am

Soren wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:05pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 3:38pm:

You are a dangerous idiot, Brain, because you are a dishonest, lying mong. On purpose.

What is a "mong"? I'm unfamiliar with this term of endearment, Soren. ::)

Quote:

Your deliberate dishonesty is your settled policy. You lie and distort as a matter of course, you have not been honest and candid in decades. You are a little jihadist on the internetz, a little foot soldier of Allan.

How am I being "deliberately dishonest"? Just because I disagree with you, that does not mean I am being dishonest, Soren.

Next you'll be calling me a "Communist"... ::)

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Soren on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 1:02pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 11:49am:

Soren wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:05pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 3:38pm:

You are a dangerous idiot, Brain, because you are a dishonest, lying mong. On purpose.

What is a "mong"? I'm unfamiliar with this term of endearment, Soren. ::)

Quote:

How am I being "deliberately dishonest"? Just because I disagree with you, that does not mean I am being dishonest, Soren.

Next you'll be calling me a "Communist"... ::)

You are deliberately dishonest by saying things that you know are not true - see above in large font.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Baronvonrort on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 1:14pm

If we look at Afghanistan in the 1960's we can see the effect of Islam on that country.

In the 1960's hijabs were rare and women went to University, when fundamental islam came to town girls were shot in the head for wanting an education.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxboRdXBwck

Iran was OK before the Mad Mullah's took control.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by greggerypeccary on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 1:30pm

How does Soren improve the world?

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Baronvonrort on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 1:31pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 1:30pm:

How does Soren improve the world?

How do peccaheads like you improve the world?

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by gandalf on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 2:12pm

I'd appreciate it if people would desist from quoting Soren's (or anyone elses) personal insults. I do my best to delete insults, and I don't want them regurgitated across the forum.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by greggerypeccary on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 2:22pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 1:31pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 1:30pm:

How does Soren improve the world?

How do peccaheads like you improve the world?

By exposing frauds like you and Soren.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Karnal on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 2:35pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 2:12pm:

I'd appreciate it if people would desist from quoting Soren's (or anyone elses) personal insults. I do my best to delete insults, and I don't want them regurgitated across the forum.

Yes, G, but the old boy is merely improving society for the better. He is showing, through his words and deeds, the influence of his Lutheran prophet.

I do think it’s a jolly example for us all to follow, no?

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Baronvonrort on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 2:38pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 2:22pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 1:31pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 1:30pm:

How does Soren improve the world?

How do peccaheads like you improve the world?

By exposing frauds like you and Soren.

The only thing you expose is how much of a peccahead you are

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Baronvonrort on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 2:39pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 1:14pm:

Gandalf-

I am curious about your opinion of Afghanistan in the 60's,care to comment?

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 2:41pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 1:14pm:

It's obvious you know buggerall about the history of Afghanistan if you believe that, Baron.

Islam has been in Afghanistan for over a millennium. You appear to believe it's a recent arrival or something. Hijabs, Burqa were common outside the capital Kabul, Baron. Don't let the pictures of a few mini-clad teenagers in the one major city fool you into thinking that Afghanistan had modernised in any meaningful way.

What brought about the resurgence of Islam was the Communist revolution in 1978. With its stupid attempt to create a Communist nation in the face of entrenched traditional modes of existence such as with collectivisation and the overturning of traditional power structures, created growing resistance, the Soviets then invaded in 1979 (like the Vietnam War more through a negligent slide into military action than design it seems) the deliberate US decision to use Islam as a unifying force through promotion of fundamentalist Sunni beliefs (the CIA also believed it would be a useful counter to the Sh'ia of Iran), unleashed a demon that the US has never been able to control. Like so much US policy, it's all about short term gain as against any long term thinking of possible consequences.

Quote:

Iran was OK before the Mad Mullah's took control.

Iran was OK before the US and UK overthrew the last democratically elected Government of Iran in 1953. Again, Western interference for short term gain, rather than thinking about the long term consequences of installing a despot like the Shah. ::) ::)

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Baronvonrort on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 2:58pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 2:41pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 1:14pm:

Iran was OK before the Mad Mullah's took control.

Maryam Namazie an Iranian founder of the councilofexmuslims says you just have to look at Afghanistan and Iran to see how Islam can take over your country and be a major setback for progress.
www.councilofexmuslims.com

Of course you don't support those who chose to leave Islam do you brian, we have a thread on your spineless apologetics regarding the death penalty for apostasy.

There are Iranians who say the Shah was much better than the barbaric Islamic regime, I have had Iranians ask me why the CIA did not put a bullet in Khomenis head to prevent the Islamic revolution,JC was a pussy is all I can say.

The Pakistan ISI played a huge role in the creation of the Taliban, of course the USA did not want communism to spread which probably helped seal the fate of the first Kurdish state as well which was communist.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by greggerypeccary on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 3:02pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 2:38pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 2:22pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 1:31pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 1:30pm:

How does Soren improve the world?

How do peccaheads like you improve the world?

By exposing frauds like you and Soren.

The only thing you expose is how much of a peccahead you are

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Quantum on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 3:05pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 2:41pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 1:14pm:

Are you arguing for Islam, or against? ::)

Quote:

What brought about the resurgence of Islam was the Communist revolution in 1978. With its stupid attempt to create a Communist nation in the face of entrenched traditional modes of existence such as with collectivisation and the overturning of traditional power structures, created growing resistance, the Soviets then invaded in 1979 (like the Vietnam War more through a negligent slide into military action than design it seems) the deliberate US decision to use Islam as a unifying force through promotion of fundamentalist Sunni beliefs (the CIA also believed it would be a useful counter to the Sh'ia of Iran), unleashed a demon that the US has never been able to control. Like so much US policy, it's all about short term gain as against any long term thinking of possible consequences.

So don't try to change a society, just leave it how it is because you may end up stuffing it all up.

Sounds like a good argument against multiculturalism... ::)

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 6:11pm

Quantum wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 3:05pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 2:41pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 1:14pm:

Are you arguing for Islam, or against? ::)

Neither. I am pointing out that the Baron appears to know little about the modern history of Islam in Afghanistan, Quantum, so that he might be a little better educated in the end.

Quote:

[quote]What brought about the resurgence of Islam was the Communist revolution in 1978. With its stupid attempt to create a Communist nation in the face of entrenched traditional modes of existence such as with collectivisation and the overturning of traditional power structures, created growing resistance, the Soviets then invaded in 1979 (like the Vietnam War more through a negligent slide into military action than design it seems) the deliberate US decision to use Islam as a unifying force through promotion of fundamentalist Sunni beliefs (the CIA also believed it would be a useful counter to the Sh'ia of Iran), unleashed a demon that the US has never been able to control. Like so much US policy, it's all about short term gain as against any long term thinking of possible consequences.

So don't try to change a society, just leave it how it is because you may end up stuffing it all up.
[/quote]

Nope. In the case of Afghanistan, when you start from a low base, you have to make evolutionary, rather than revolutionary change - bring the people with you, rather than drag them behind, into a new society.

Quote:

Sounds like a good argument against multiculturalism... ::)

Might surprise you but Afghanistan is a multicultural society as well, Quantum. Not a harmonious one like ours but it still consists of multiple different cultures, all under Islam, which like all proselytising religions doesn't care about your culture, just your beliefs.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Baronvonrort on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 6:30pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 6:11pm:

It's obvious you know buggerall about the history of Afghanistan if you believe that, Baron.

It's obvious you know buggerall about anything apart from sticking up for Islam brian.

8-)

Afghanistan and and Iran went backwards from more Islam, both countries showed how rapidly they can be transformed to Islamic rule.

Both of them brought back stoning to death, this is the Islam you are so keen to defend while being critical of Christians who stopped doing it hundreds of years ago.

I bet your forum is quiet these days or you wouldn't be here 8-)

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 8:37pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 6:30pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 6:11pm:

It's obvious you know buggerall about the history of Afghanistan if you believe that, Baron.

Both were modernising, Baron. Both went backwards to fundamentalist Islam because of foreign - primarily American and British, interference. In both cases, as I pointed out, short-term political gain and ambition was put before long-term thinking over what was best not only for the locals but for the West as well.

Fundamentalist Islam was in both cases already present in those countries, however it's influence was low, until upheaval and strife occurred, when it stepped in and filled the vacuum external interference produced.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by freediver on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 8:56pm

Even when countries slide backward towards political Islamism, it is all America's fault. Nothing to do with Islam.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Karnal on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 9:21pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 11:05am:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:59pm:

Quote:

...........advocated persecution against people ...

against a death cult that murders innocents according to the instruction of its paedophilic leader.

You underestimate how much I detest islam

You don’t want to answer, FD?

Google: taqiyya.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 11:35pm

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 8:56pm:

Even when countries slide backward towards political Islamism, it is all America's fault. Nothing to do with Islam.

Invariably the trigger in the last and this century was external interference in the internal affairs of a Muslim nation, FD. People when they are frightened or confused, such as when they're in the middle of a war tend to grab onto the one thing that seems to offer security and hope and that is invariably religion. In the UK and Australia, during WWII, church attendances soared. In the US, after 11 September, church attendance soared. In Afghanistan and Iran, Mosque attendances soared. Funny that, Muslims acting just like Christians, hey, FD? ::)

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Yadda on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 12:08am

"How does Islam improve the world?"

How can ISLAM improve the world, when ISLAM teaches the moslem, that to deceive by falsehood, is a virtue ?

Google;
allah, 99 names, deceiver

"How does Islam improve the world?"

How can ISLAM improve the world, when 'the moslem' [the follower of ISLAM] will neither concede nor admit that there is anything wrong with the moslem worldview, nor anything immoral with the method which moslems use [i.e. deceit and violence] to pursue that worldview ?

"It is the act of a bad man to deceive by falsehood."
- Marcus Tullius Cicero

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Yadda on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 12:22am

Karnal wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 11:39am:

Islam’s core is submitting one’s ego to Oneness through prayer, fasting, pilgrimage and charity.

That’s the point of it.

.
.
.
.
.
.

Quote:

"Islam’s core is submitting one’s ego to Oneness through prayer, fasting, pilgrimage and charity."

Karnal

"It is the act of a bad man to deceive by falsehood."
- Marcus Tullius Cicero

ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) "
fiqhussunnah/fus1_06

ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."

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Quote:

"Islam’s core is submitting one’s ego to Oneness through prayer, fasting, pilgrimage and charity."

Karnal

"It is the act of a bad man to deceive by falsehood."
- Marcus Tullius Cicero

THE HADITH....

"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." - DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

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Quote:

"Islam’s core is submitting one’s ego to Oneness through prayer, fasting, pilgrimage and charity."

Karnal

"It is the act of a bad man to deceive by falsehood."
- Marcus Tullius Cicero

Quote:

Use children as troops, says cleric
January 18, 2007
SYDNEY'S most influential radical Muslim cleric has been caught on film calling Jews pigs and urging children to die for Allah.
Firebrand Sheik Feiz Mohammed, head of the Global Islamic Youth Centre in Liverpool [Australia], delivered the hateful rants on a collection of DVDs called the Death Series being sold in Australia and overseas.
.........Sheik Feiz says in the video.
"We want to have children and offer them as soldiers defending Islam. Teach them this: There is nothing more beloved to me than wanting to die as a mujahid (holy warrior). Put in their soft, tender hearts the zeal of jihad and a love of martyrdom."
An Australian citizen born in Sydney who has spent the past year living in Lebanon, Sheik Feiz was exposed this week in a British documentary Undercover Mosque.
......"The peak, the pinnacle, the crest, the highest point, the pivot, the summit of Islam is jihad," he declares in the film, before denouncing "kaffirs" (non-Muslims).

"Kaffir is the worst word ever written, a sign of infidelity, disbelief, filth, a sign of dirt."

......Sheik Feiz - who just two weeks ago said he felt like an "alien" in his own country - leads about 4000 followers through his Global Islamic Youth Centre in Sydney's southwest.
He also accused Australian authorities of being over-zealous in their approach to clerics like him.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21074839-2,00.html
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014863.php

NOW LISTEN TO THE EXACT SAME MOSLEM AS HE SPEAKS TO NON-MOSLEM AUDIENCE - WHO HAVE BECOME AWARE OF HIS PREVIOUS STATEMENTS
Fiery Australian cleric claims jihad remarks were misunderstood
"The jihad I speak of is not one of violence,"...
"I don't believe in suicide bombing. I don't believe in violence against others," he said. "We denounce that. This is not Islamic law and it is not moral."
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/01/fiery-australian-cleric-claims-jihad-remarks-were-misunderstood.html

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Quote:

"Islam’s core is submitting one’s ego to Oneness through prayer, fasting, pilgrimage and charity."

Karnal

"It is the act of a bad man to deceive by falsehood."
- Marcus Tullius Cicero

"The Koran is our constitution"
"The Prophet Muhammad is our leader"
"Jihad is our path"
"AND DEATH FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH IS OUR MOST LOFTY ASPIRATION!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NtiUMOFFg

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Yadda on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 12:32am

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 8:56pm:

Even when countries slide backward towards political Islamism, it is all America's fault. Nothing to do with Islam.

e.g.
ISIS.

Nothing to do with ISLAM.

Ask gandalf, .....and Karnal!

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Quote:

"Islam’s core is submitting one’s ego to Oneness through prayer, fasting, pilgrimage and charity."

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Yadda on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 1:05am

Yadda wrote on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 12:08am:

"How does Islam improve the world?"

How can ISLAM improve the world, when ISLAM teaches the moslem, that to deceive by falsehood, is a virtue ?

Google;
allah, 99 names, deceiver

Allah has certainly deceived moslems. :)

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111

"Satan makes them promises, and creates in them false desires; but satan's promises are nothing but deception.
They (his dupes) will have their dwelling in Hell, and from it they will find no way of escape."
Koran 4.120

"Then, on the Day of Judgment,.....Then would they offer submission (with the pretence), "We did no evil (knowingly)." (The angels will reply), "Nay, but verily [God] knoweth all that ye did;"
Koran 16.27

There are evil spirits abroad in the world.

Where is the angel of the LORD ?

Psalms 34:7
The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

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Isaiah 34:1
Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
....
....
8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
....
....
16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

Psalms 83:4
They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

Ezekiel 35:10
Because thou hast said, These two nations and these two countries shall be mine, and we will possess it; whereas the LORD was there:
11 Therefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will even do according to thine anger, and according to thine envy which thou hast used out of thy hatred against them; and I will make myself known among them, when I have judged thee.
12 And thou shalt know that I am the LORD, and that I have heard all thy blasphemies which thou hast spoken against the mountains of Israel, saying, They are laid desolate, they are given us to consume.
13 Thus with your mouth ye have boasted against me, and have multiplied your words against me: I have heard them.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Karnal on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 1:29am

Sorry, Y, are you saying the five pillars of Islam are a deception?

Remember, it is the act of a bad man to deceive by falsehood.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by gandalf on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 8:38am

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 2:39pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 1:14pm:

Gandalf-

I am curious about your opinion of Afghanistan in the 60's,care to comment?

You mean just before the US started sponsoring jihadists and islamists who put women in tents?

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by gandalf on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 8:44am

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 8:56pm:

Even when countries slide backward towards political Islamism, it is all America's fault. Nothing to do with Islam.

Not just America - in Afghanistans case I would also blame Soviet Russia and Pakistan.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Yadda on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 9:23am

Karnal wrote on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 1:29am:

Sorry, Y, are you saying the five pillars of Islam are a deception?

The the five pillars of ISLAM;
Faith
Prayer
Charitable giving [a virtue which has been perverted by 'the moslem', so as to facilitate the cause of Allah [Jihad], against 'infidels']
Fasting
Pilgrimage to Mecca

Karnal wrote on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 1:29am:

Remember, it is the act of a bad man to deceive by falsehood.

K,

Where does it say, that the five pillars of ISLAM have abrogated the commands of Allah, given in the Koran ???

The commands of Allah, in the Koran, for 'the moslem' to exercise never ending enmity and warfare against those who reject ISLAM.

"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them."
Koran 3.28

"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51
[n.b. Koran 5.51 clearly state that any person [a moslem] who makes sincere friendship with Jews and the Christians, IS NOT IN FACT, A MOSLEM [and all facets of ISLAM; ISLAMIC law, the Hadith, the Koran, Allah! describe Allah's hostility towards such moslems]
QUESTION;
So religiously, that means that the majority of moslems, in Australia, are not moslems, does it ??? Karnal ?
If not moslems, then WHAT ARE THEY ? ]

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone"....."
Koran 60:4

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

"And fight with them until.....religion should be only for Allah,..."
Koran 2.193

"....Battle, animosity, and hatred -- directed from the Muslim to the infidel -- is the foundation of our religion.."

November 10, 2008
Raymond Ibrahim: "Islam's Doctrines of Deception"

Quote:

"As to the relationship between Muslims and infidels, this is summarized by the Most High's Word: ‘We renounce you. Enmity and hate shall forever reign between us -- till you believe in Allah alone’ [Koran 60:4].

So there is an enmity, evidenced by fierce hostility from the heart. And this fierce hostility -- that is, battle -- ceases only if the infidel submits to the authority of Islam, or if his blood is forbidden from being shed [i.e., a dhimmi], or if Muslims are at that point in time weak and incapable [i.e., taqiyya]. But if the hate at any time extinguishes from the heart, this is great apostasy! Such, then, is the basis and foundation of the relationship between the infidel and the Muslim. Battle, animosity, and hatred -- directed from the Muslim to the infidel -- is the foundation of our religion. And we consider this a justice and kindness to them" (from The Al Qaeda Reader).
.....It bears repeating that this hostile world view is well supported by all of Islam’s schools of jurisprudence."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/11/raymond-ibrahim-islams-doctrines-of-deception.html

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Google,
smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"

Quote:

A Study in Muslim Doctrine

"...while sincere friendship with non-Muslims is forbidden,

insincere friendship - whenever beneficial to Muslims - is not."

http://www.meforum.org/2512/nidal-hasan-fort-hood-muslim-doctrine

The only type of 'peaceful' relationship with disbelievers which is permitted by ISLAMIC law, is a relationship which is based upon deceit and lying [by 'the moslem'], towards those who are not moslems, so as to advance and strengthen the interests of 'the moslem' and ISLAM.

e.g.

Quote:

July 28, 2006
Islamic Dictionary for Infidels

...Robert Spencer, ..."Religious deception of unbelievers is indeed taught by the Qur'an itself: "Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them" (Qur'an 3:28). In other words, don't make friends with unbelievers except to "guard yourselves from them": pretend to be their friends so that you can strengthen yourself against them. The distinguished Qur'anic commentator Ibn Kathir explains that this verse teaches that if "believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers," they may "show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/012406.php

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by wally1 on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 10:24am

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 8:56pm:

Even when countries slide backward towards political Islamism, it is all America's fault. Nothing to do with Islam.

So Iraq wasnt america's fault?

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by gandalf on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 10:28am

wally1 wrote on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 10:24am:

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 8:56pm:

Even when countries slide backward towards political Islamism, it is all America's fault. Nothing to do with Islam.

So Iraq wasnt america's fault?

The rise of the islamists and sectarian warfare that rose as a direct result of the power vacuum created by the US invasion is not America's fault - honest! :D

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Karnal on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 11:52am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 10:28am:

wally1 wrote on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 10:24am:

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 8:56pm:

Even when countries slide backward towards political Islamism, it is all America's fault. Nothing to do with Islam.

So Iraq wasnt america's fault?

The rise of the islamists and sectarian warfare that rose as a direct result of the power vacuum created by the US invasion is not America's fault - honest! :D

Exactly. Uncle set Iraq up to be the next South Korea. Look.at them now.

I blame Islam.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by gandalf on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 12:38pm

And Afghanistan now has genuine democracy - FD can show you the list of candidates from the last election - proof!!

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by moses on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 4:33pm

Q: How does Islam improve the world?

A: Forever stay in the 7th century, death for apostasy & heresy, amputating limbs for theft, stoning women and homosexuals, islamic inbreeding, low I.Q., no free speech or democracy, zero contribution to the endeavours of science, human rights or peace.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Karnal on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 4:48pm

Q. Who is the kuffir?

A. You, Mr Moslem, you are the kuffir!!!

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Karnal on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 4:54pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 12:38pm:

And Afghanistan now has genuine democracy - FD can show you the list of candidates from the last election - proof!!

Oh, indeed. They’d be one of the most democratic nations on earth if it wasn’t for Islam.

They only have themselves to blame, you know.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Caliph adamant on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 5:37pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 4:48pm:

Q. Who is the kuffir?

A. You, Mr Moslem, you are the kuffir!!!

You are an ignorant individual. Fact.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 7:02pm

Adamant wrote on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 5:37pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 4:48pm:

Q. Who is the kuffir?

A. You, Mr Moslem, you are the kuffir!!!

You are an ignorant individual. Fact.

None so blind as those that will not see... ::)

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Caliph adamant on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 7:11pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 7:02pm:

Adamant wrote on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 5:37pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 4:48pm:

Q. Who is the kuffir?

A. You, Mr Moslem, you are the kuffir!!!

You are an ignorant individual. Fact.

None so blind as those that will not see...

Can't even get thet saying correct can you. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) and you are:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 7:59pm

Jeremiah 5:21

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by freediver on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 8:15pm

It is our fault that Muslims start hacking each others' heads off every time they get the opportunity. They are acting no different to western Christians, who also go to church when things get grim.

Who else could possibly be to blame?

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Karnal on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 9:58pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 7:02pm:

Adamant wrote on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 5:37pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 4:48pm:

Q. Who is the kuffir?

A. You, Mr Moslem, you are the kuffir!!!

You are an ignorant individual. Fact.

None so blind as those that will not see... ::)

Now now, no need to shoot the messenger. The Caliph knows which way the wind blows.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Baronvonrort on Jan 5^th, 2015 at 12:28pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 8:38am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 2:39pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 1:14pm:

Gandalf-

I am curious about your opinion of Afghanistan in the 60's,care to comment?

You mean just before the US started sponsoring jihadists and islamists who put women in tents?

The USA did not start supporting the Mujahideen until the 1980's, there were full page ads in American papers asking for donations to buy bullets to help the Afghans fight the Russians.

The Americans did not like the influence of communism and fought to stop it spreading.
The stinger missiles the Americans supplied caused the Russians to go home.

I wonder what role the USA played with the first communist Kurdish states demise in Iran.

It was a mistake for the Americans to oppose the commies in Afghanistan, the Russians would have dragged the remaining bearded nutjobs out of the stone age.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by gandalf on Jan 5^th, 2015 at 1:32pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 5^th, 2015 at 12:28pm:

It was a mistake for the Americans to oppose the commies in Afghanistan, the Russians would have dragged the remaining bearded nutjobs out of the stone age.

And instead the Americans - in conjunction with their allies in Pakistan - enabled the bearded nutjobs to overrun Kabul - the very place where those pretty girls in your video were getting around in short skirts and sitting next to men on public transport.

I'm really not sure what point you are making Baron.

Tell me B - how far do you think the bearded nutjobs - who originated from Pakistan-run training camps would have got without the financial and military backing of the US?

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by freediver on Jan 5^th, 2015 at 5:43pm

Gandalf do you disagree with Baron about whether the US should have let the Russians have their way with Afghanistan?

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by gandalf on Jan 5^th, 2015 at 8:25pm

Well FD, if we are talking about wanting pretty girls being allowed to freely get around in short skirts in Kabul, then the Soviet backed communist regime was quite ideal - they were socially progressive, secular and anti-islamist. Not so good for democracy, of course, but then again the bearded nutjobs that the US chose as their instrument to overthrow the communists didn't exactly have freedom and democracy in mind either.

On balance though, if its a choice between the communists and the bearded nutjobs that the US supported, the communists win on the overall freedom and progressiveness scale - hands down. You see, while you may rail against the evils of communism, the reality was that girls were getting around in short skirts and freely fraternising with non-relative maies - not to mention getting educated and having careers. When the US-funded bearded nutjobs took over, those pretty girls started to get raped, shot and generally terrorised off the streets. And to keep law and order, the warlords were firing artillery rounds into unarmed civilians and running over people with tanks.

Which do you think was better FD?

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Baronvonrort on Jan 5^th, 2015 at 10:00pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5^th, 2015 at 8:25pm:

The ladies were getting around in Kabul showing not only hair but legs in the 1960's

The Soviet influence didn't start till around 1978, the Afghan women didn't need communism to show some leg they were doing it before the commies arrived.

The Soviets started to withdraw around 1989 and when the USSR collapsed around 1991 all support for Afghanistan was withdrawn

It was the early 1990's when Afghanistan became an Islamic republic by mid 90's the Taliban was ruling,mini skirts were out Burqas were in.

Saudi Arabia and Iran supported militias in Afghanistan during their civil war,much like they do in Iraq and Syria today with more war between rival sects of Islam.
Afghanistan and Iran show how quickly a country can be taken over and have Islamic rule imposed on the people.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Soren on Jan 5^th, 2015 at 10:20pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 5^th, 2015 at 10:00pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5^th, 2015 at 8:25pm:

Gandalf knows that all perfectly well. Still, it was worth a try, no, Gandy?

Google: selective ignorance.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Baronvonrort on Jan 5^th, 2015 at 10:23pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5^th, 2015 at 1:32pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 5^th, 2015 at 12:28pm:

It was a mistake for the Americans to oppose the commies in Afghanistan, the Russians would have dragged the remaining bearded nutjobs out of the stone age.

The Saudis and Iran played a role in this as well, the withdrawal of financial aid from the Soviets was also a contributing factor in fundamental islam taking over.

The Saudis were making a financial contribution to this mess, with or without US aid it would still have been a mess.
The Iranians helped Shiite militias like they do in Iraq and Syria today.

As we saw with Pakistan they gave Osama a nice place to stay which was well clear of the USA bombs then got butthurt when the USA killed him.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by freediver on Jan 6^th, 2015 at 7:45am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5^th, 2015 at 8:25pm:

From what I understand, the Soviets were doing their fair share of raping and pillaging. The Taliban, or whoever they were at the time, were the only ones willing to do the heavy lifting. I think the US did the right thing there. I doubt the situation would have been any better had the Soviets been allowed to win. Hindsight is all well and good, but it doesn't tell you anything about the alternative you promote.

I think the US should have gotten more involved, doing some of the things they are doing now. Their mistake was not going in, but pulling out and leaving a vacuum.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Hot Breath on Jan 6^th, 2015 at 10:19am

How does any religion improve the world? Like all opiates they keep the believers happy and blissfully unaware of reality. Islam is no different. ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Soren on Jan 7^th, 2015 at 5:19pm

|dev|null wrote on Jan 6^th, 2015 at 10:19am:

How does any religion improve the world? Like all opiates they keep the believers happy and blissfully unaware of reality. Islam is no different. ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Christianity has made a HUGE difference over the last 2000 years.

The ideas of love your fellow human being, think of others before you think of yourself, be kind as a matter of policy, do not lose hope, be assured that you are as worthy as anyone else, recognise idiots like you for the idiots they are, etc, etc - these are ideas that were brought into the world by Judaism and especially Christianity ( a kind of Judaism).

They were not part of the Roman ethos, nor of the Persian, African, Chinese or any other.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Karnal on Jan 7^th, 2015 at 5:30pm

Soren wrote on Jan 7^th, 2015 at 5:19pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jan 6^th, 2015 at 10:19am:

How does any religion improve the world? Like all opiates they keep the believers happy and blissfully unaware of reality. Islam is no different. ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Don’t forget the freedom to hate Islam, old boy.

Not to mention bearded numpties, spineless appeasers, the yellow hoards, the tinted races, and every other race, creed and culture not compatible with the old boy.

Christianity has made a huge difference - particularly on the old boy. Love for your fellow human being, think of others before yourself, abhor, despise, dislike, be repulsed - all good values, no?

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Hot Breath on Jan 7^th, 2015 at 5:41pm

Soren wrote on Jan 7^th, 2015 at 5:19pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jan 6^th, 2015 at 10:19am:

How does any religion improve the world? Like all opiates they keep the believers happy and blissfully unaware of reality. Islam is no different. ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Christianity has made a HUGE difference over the last 2000 years.

Yes, it has oppressed people and lied to them, promising them that if they accept their oppression they will be rewarded after they have died. It's called the Christian Work Ethic. I prefer the Marxist Work Ethic. Work hard, receive your rewards now as a share of your labours!

Quote:

The ideas of love your fellow human being, think of others before you think of yourself, be kind as a matter of policy, do not lose hope, be assured that you are as worthy as anyone else, recognise idiots like you for the idiots they are, etc, etc - these are ideas that were brought into the world by Judaism and especially Christianity ( a kind of Judaism).

Unless you're a Native American or a Black African. Then you'll end up enslaved, starved, beaten, tortured and worked to death.

Quote:

They were not part of the Roman ethos, nor of the Persian, African, Chinese or any other.

I don't see any practicable difference. ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Karnal on Jan 7^th, 2015 at 5:51pm

Oh, and Marxists. The old boy hates them.

Christianity has made a HUGE difference on the old boy.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by AiA on Jan 7^th, 2015 at 5:59pm

too many damn rules in Islam.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Soren on Jan 7^th, 2015 at 6:13pm

|dev|null wrote on Jan 7^th, 2015 at 5:41pm:

I prefer the Marxist Work Ethic.

Hilarious!!!

Thank you, git, you have made my day.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Soren on Jan 7^th, 2015 at 6:16pm

|dev|null wrote on Jan 7^th, 2015 at 5:41pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 7^th, 2015 at 5:19pm:

[quote]
The ideas of love your fellow human being, think of others before you think of yourself, be kind as a matter of policy, do not lose hope, be assured that you are as worthy as anyone else, recognise idiots like you for the idiots they are, etc, etc - these are ideas that were brought into the world by Judaism and especially Christianity ( a kind of Judaism).

Unless you're a Native American or a Black African. Then you'll end up enslaved, starved, beaten, tortured and worked to death.

They were killing and maiming each other constantly at a far greater rate BEFORE they were shown the light. Tribal warfare was all.

Title: Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Post by Karnal on Jan 7^th, 2015 at 6:38pm

Soren wrote on Jan 7^th, 2015 at 6:16pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jan 7^th, 2015 at 5:41pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 7^th, 2015 at 5:19pm:

Unless you're a Native American or a Black African. Then you'll end up enslaved, starved, beaten, tortured and worked to death.

They were killing and maiming each other constantly at a far greater rate BEFORE they were shown the light. Tribal warfare was all.

Still are, old boy. They’re tinted. You can’t fix them, it’s genetic.

Correlation not causation, remember.