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General Discussion >> General Board >> Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
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Message started by Ahovking on Jan 14th, 2015 at 8:10pm

Title: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Ahovking on Jan 14th, 2015 at 8:10pm

Quote:
Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act 1975 (Cth) makes it unlawful to “offend, insult humiliate or intimidate” a person on the grounds of “race, colour or national or ethnic origin”. Section 18C was the provision used against News Corp Australia journalist Andrew Bolt in 2011 for two columns he had published in 2009.

“This week leaders from around the world have united to defend the right of publications like Charlie Hebdo to publish content that is offensive to some,” says Mr Breheny.

“But a publication such as Charlie Hebdo would struggle to survive in Australia, due to laws that censor offensive, insulting, humiliating and intimidating speech. Section 18C could be used against the publishers of cartoons that satirise figures based on their race or ethnicity. Content not caught by section 18C would almost certainly be censored by current state religious vilification laws, which are specifically designed to target the kind of content published in Charlie Hebdo.”

“The attack on Charlie Hebdo is an attack on freedom of expression. And as Prime Minister Tony Abbott rightly noted in response to this atrocity, ‘Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society.’”

“The Abbott government should seek to put the prime minister’s words into action by repealing existing Australian laws that restrict free speech, starting with section 18C,” says Mr Breheny.

Currently 18C makes it unlawful to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person because of their race, colour or national or ethnic origin.

http://www.news.com.au/national/charlie-hebdo-would-be-censored-in-australia-freedom-commissioner-tim-wilson/story-fncynjr2-1227183150030

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/terror/being-charlie-with-18c-in-place-australia-says-non/story-fnpdbcmu-1227182736935

http://australianconservative.com/2015/01/paris-massacre-at-charlie-hebdo-shows-why-rda-section-18c-must-go-%E2%80%93-ipa/


Sounds like Australians need to grow up and the left to harden up.

As a great man once said  ;)

"We have to be prepared to speak up for our beliefs. We have to be prepared to call things as we see them. Of cause from time to time poeple will be upset, offended, insulted, humiliated... But it is all part of a free society...Because in the end the cornerstone of progress is free speech.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by The Stunt-free Horse on Jan 14th, 2015 at 8:14pm
Yes sir!

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Steampipe on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm
Responsible speech seems more attractive than free speech.

Free is only used when the cost is hidden, nothing is free.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Ahovking on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:04pm

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm:
Responsible speech seems more attractive than free speech.

Free is only used when the cost is hidden, nothing is free.


Responsible speech? With Section 18c, there is no Responsible speech, because you have no choice, theres no Responsible, its just a law to limited free speech.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by The Stunt-free Horse on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:05pm

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm:
Responsible speech seems more attractive than free speech.

Free is only used when the cost is hidden, nothing is free.

good call  :)

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Steampipe on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:10pm

Pantheon wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:04pm:

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm:
Responsible speech seems more attractive than free speech.

Free is only used when the cost is hidden, nothing is free.


Responsible speech? With Section 18c, there is no Responsible speech, because you have no choice, theres no Responsible, its just a law to limited free speech.


Well according to you there isn't, I abide by and taught my kids that if someone cant handle what you have to say don't say it, you have nothing to gain.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Soren on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:10pm
18c should be removed.

Breaking taboos in good faith - as an act that leads to new truths, as GB Shaw said - can be a good thing even if some people get offended or feel humiliated. "Offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate" are all highly subjective (and entirely subjective) feelings of the offended and the law cannot objectively decide what things "offend, insult humiliate or intimidate" all reasonable adult members of society.
Religious taboos have been broken in the West a long time ago - except the taboos around Islam.

If we say to Islam, 'You are untouchable', then we are f***d.




Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Soren on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:13pm

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm:
Responsible speech seems more attractive than free speech.



You mean Politically Correct, acceptable, responsible, sensitive and respectful speech - always decided by whoever appoints himself as the arbiter in any given case.




Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Ahovking on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:14pm

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:10pm:

Pantheon wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:04pm:

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm:
Responsible speech seems more attractive than free speech.

Free is only used when the cost is hidden, nothing is free.


Responsible speech? With Section 18c, there is no Responsible speech, because you have no choice, theres no Responsible, its just a law to limited free speech.


Well according to you there isn't, I abide by and taught my kids that if someone cant handle what you have to say don't say it, you have nothing to gain.


if someone cant handle what you have to say don't say it, you have nothing to gain. thats free speech, where its the individual Responsibility to be Responsible, Forcing individual to limit what they say is simply not in anyway Responsible

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by ian on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:21pm

Pantheon wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:04pm:

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm:
Responsible speech seems more attractive than free speech.

Free is only used when the cost is hidden, nothing is free.


Responsible speech? With Section 18c, there is no Responsible speech, because you have no choice, theres no Responsible, its just a law to limited free speech.
All countries have laws which limit free speech, the fact that we have these laws and 18c is so rarely used means the system works.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by ian on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:24pm

Soren wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:13pm:

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm:
Responsible speech seems more attractive than free speech.



You mean Politically Correct, acceptable, responsible, sensitive and respectful speech - always decided by whoever appoints himself as the arbiter in any given case.
You dont want free speech, you want selective free speech for only those groups and people you personally approve of. You and your ilk are actually far worse than the Muslims in my opinion, at least they make no bones about what they want. You on the other hand hide your agenda.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Ahovking on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:30pm

ian wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:21pm:

Pantheon wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:04pm:

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm:
Responsible speech seems more attractive than free speech.

Free is only used when the cost is hidden, nothing is free.


Responsible speech? With Section 18c, there is no Responsible speech, because you have no choice, theres no Responsible, its just a law to limited free speech.
All countries have laws which limit free speech, the fact that we have these laws and 18c is so rarely used means the system works.


Laws which limit free speech is a recent development, there have alway been a few that had laws in place limiting in some form or another free speech, but it has really grown out of control in recent years as the left grows more terrified at offending minorities or using small one off case to limit  free speech for all.

18c is so rarely used because its ridiculous and, it hasn't stopped racial hate speech or racial attacks etc, in fact its grown in recent years.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Yadda on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:34pm

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm:

Responsible speech
seems more attractive than free speech.

Free is only used when the cost is hidden, nothing is free.



Steampipe,

Many moslems seem to be of the opinion [that simply because they are living in a nation like Australia], THAT THIS [below] IS AN EXAMPLE OF ACCEPTABLE 'FREE SPEECH';



IMAGE....




Well, i consider that, expressing such views in a public place is illegal [or certainly should be!!!], in a country like Australia!.

Why so ?

Because, imo, such displays are AN INCITEMENT TO MURDER [being expressed by moslems].





+++


IMO, this [below] is an example of free speech;



Yadda wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 8:25am:

ISLAMIC LAW teaches - EVERY MOSLEM - that murdering those who are not moslems [i.e. those who reject ISLAM], is a lawful act.




That 'precept' of faith is mainstream within ISLAM.

ISIS know it.

Al-Qaeda know it.

The Saudis know it.

And EVERY moslem who is living among us, here in Australia, knows it.





ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) "
fiqhussunnah/fus1_06


ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."





THE HADITH....

"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." - DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260





Why is the above is an example of acceptable free speech ?

Because in my post, i am not encouraging unlawful or violent acts.

I am merely demonstrating [and exposing!!] the disturbing worldview which some other people hold, and think is an acceptable worldview to hold.

!!!!!!!!




AND HERE IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE [the 'statement' that is being expressed, within the image], OF UNACCEPTABLE 'FREE SPEECH' [imo];


IMAGE...


"BEHEAD ALL THOSE WHO INSULT THE PROPHET"

Sydney, 2012, moslem street protests.


Moslems, religious bigots, 'demonstrating', just how 'peaceful' and tolerant ISLAM and moslems really are -  towards those who don't hold with the views of ISLAM and moslems.

Moslems on a Sydney street, openly demanding their right to exercise their 'freedom of religion'.

Demanding the 'religious' right, to kill people who do not believe as they [moslems] believe.




Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by innocentbystander. on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:36pm
If we start making laws that ban people from making idiotic comment that offends then how on Earth will the ALP ever get their policy message out?

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Soren on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:45pm

ian wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:24pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:13pm:

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm:
Responsible speech seems more attractive than free speech.



You mean Politically Correct, acceptable, responsible, sensitive and respectful speech - always decided by whoever appoints himself as the arbiter in any given case.
You dont want free speech, you want selective free speech for only those groups and people you personally approve of. You and your ilk are actually far worse than the Muslims in my opinion, at least they make no bones about what they want. You on the other hand hide your agenda.

Whose free speech have I opposed, ever?

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Steampipe on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:51pm

Yadda wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:34pm:

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm:

Responsible speech
seems more attractive than free speech.

Free is only used when the cost is hidden, nothing is free.



Steampipe,

Many moslems seem to be of the opinion [that simply because they are living in a nation like Australia], THAT THIS [below] IS AN EXAMPLE OF ACCEPTABLE 'FREE SPEECH';


I don't know what you are trying to tell me, but what I will say is free speech has a cost, its not free. The cost will reveal itself sooner or later.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Yadda on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:59pm

Yadda wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:34pm:

IMO, this [below] is an example of free speech;



Yadda wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 8:25am:

ISLAMIC LAW teaches - EVERY MOSLEM - that murdering those who are not moslems [i.e. those who reject ISLAM], is a lawful act.




That 'precept' of faith is mainstream within ISLAM.

ISIS know it.

Al-Qaeda know it.

The Saudis know it.

And EVERY moslem who is living among us, here in Australia, knows it.





ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) "
fiqhussunnah/fus1_06


ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."





THE HADITH....

"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." - DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260





Steampipe,

Above, i have made a statement;


Quote:
IMO, this is an example of free speech;




If someone disagrees with MY OPINION, and if detractors [of what i have stated] have a legitimate complaint, then let them air it [IN THE FORUM], and have their complaint tested in debate!

Why not ?





something i posted on another public forum;

Quote:

THE WHOLE POINT OF FREE AND OPEN DEBATE


What the ABC forum MODERATORS are effectively saying is,

"Your point of view is [pick one] untrue/offensive/too contentious. And i won't allow such views to be expressed here."

My argument to the MODERATORS is,
ABC forum MODERATORS may disagree with my opinions, and even say that my opinions are untrue or 'offensive' to some.

But if they feel that, then shouldn't they, or somebody else, be prepared to make that argument, IN THE FORUM, against any points i present?

If i do regard ISLAM as an 'offensive' philosophy, then in a 'free and open' forum, shouldn't i be permitted to express that point of view, and to demonstrate, why i hold that particular view about ISLAM?

And if the detractors [of certain comments i have made] have a legitimate complaint, then let them air it [IN THE FORUM], and have their complaint tested in debate!
.....FOR ALL TO SEE.


Shouldn't the ABC forum MODERATORS allow those people who frequent the ABC forum pages, to decide for themselves if my [or anyone elses] arguments have any merit [or not]?

If what i say is untrue, or ridiculous, that fact, will soon become apparent to everyone, when what i say, is exposed to the light of [widespread] scrutiny.





Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by ian on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:10pm

Pantheon wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:30pm:

ian wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:21pm:

Pantheon wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:04pm:

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm:
Responsible speech seems more attractive than free speech.

Free is only used when the cost is hidden, nothing is free.


Responsible speech? With Section 18c, there is no Responsible speech, because you have no choice, theres no Responsible, its just a law to limited free speech.
All countries have laws which limit free speech, the fact that we have these laws and 18c is so rarely used means the system works.


Laws which limit free speech is a recent development, there have alway been a few that had laws in place limiting in some form or another free speech, but it has really grown out of control in recent years as the left grows more terrified at offending minorities or using small one off case to limit  free speech for all.

18c is so rarely used because its ridiculous and, it hasn't stopped racial hate speech or racial attacks etc, in fact its grown in recent years.
no they arent, laws limiting free speech have been around as long as democracy has, in fact every single democratic country has  laws limiting free speech  . 18c is used so rarely because people know it exists , thats why it works so well. Laws dont have to be applied to be effective.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Yadda on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:12pm

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:51pm:

Yadda wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:34pm:

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm:

Responsible speech
seems more attractive than free speech.

Free is only used when the cost is hidden, nothing is free.



Steampipe,

Many moslems seem to be of the opinion [that simply because they are living in a nation like Australia], THAT THIS [below] IS AN EXAMPLE OF ACCEPTABLE 'FREE SPEECH';


I don't know what you are trying to tell me, but what I will say is free speech has a cost, its not free. The cost will reveal itself sooner or later.



Steampipe,

Free speech certainly has a cost.

And those who were murdered at the Charlie Hebdo offices certainly paid a cost, for exercising their right to express themselves!

Didn't they !





Whereas, a person like you, are satisfied to simply enjoy all of the benefits of living in a free society, like Australia.

Like a cowardly parasite, some may say.

???

Are my words offensive ?

Do they 'cut' you ?

Well, that is what words are for!



Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Steampipe on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:19pm

Yadda wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:12pm:

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:51pm:

Yadda wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:34pm:

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm:

Responsible speech
seems more attractive than free speech.

Free is only used when the cost is hidden, nothing is free.



Steampipe,

Many moslems seem to be of the opinion [that simply because they are living in a nation like Australia], THAT THIS [below] IS AN EXAMPLE OF ACCEPTABLE 'FREE SPEECH';


I don't know what you are trying to tell me, but what I will say is free speech has a cost, its not free. The cost will reveal itself sooner or later.



Steampipe,

Free speech certainly has a cost.

And those who were murdered at the Charlie Hebdo offices certainly paid a cost, for exercising their right to express themselves!

Didn't they !





Whereas, a person like you, are satisfied to simply enjoy all of the benefits of living in a free society, like Australia.

Like a cowardly parasite, some may say.

???

Are my words offensive ?

Do they 'cut' you ?

Well, that is what words are for!


I don't even know what is exciting you, My only point is there is a cost associated with free speech, you can say what you like about me, you can abuse me all you like, the cost of that is people see what are really like.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by ian on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:21pm
I just ignore Yaddas posts, he scribbles like an infant and is unable to communicate effectively. incoherent nearly all his posts, i dont even bother.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by freediver on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:23pm

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm:
Responsible speech seems more attractive than free speech.

Free is only used when the cost is hidden, nothing is free.


No-one says you have to be attracted to it Steam pipe.


Quote:
Well according to you there isn't, I abide by and taught my kids that if someone cant handle what you have to say don't say it, you have nothing to gain.


If if they disagree with you and say it anyway, would you have them put in jail, or shot at, because some lunatic in a nightgown can't handle it?

BTW, there is something to gain - freedom of speech.


Quote:
All countries have laws which limit free speech, the fact that we have these laws and 18c is so rarely used means the system works.


Wrong Ian, it means it works despite the laws. Yet we have people in jail for the 'crime' of promoting an alternative view on history.


Quote:
You dont want free speech, you want selective free speech for only those groups and people you personally approve of.


What utter bollocks. Yet this is parroted again and again by Ian, Brian and all the other apologists. They are never able to back it up.


Quote:
You on the other hand hide your agenda.


In other words, he and his 'ilk' never actually said the things you attribute to him, but you 'know' it to be true anyway, because for you the idea of someone who actually supports freedom of speech is incomprehensible. You want the critics of Islam to be just as bad as the Muslims, because it saves you having to stand up for anything.


Quote:
I don't know what you are trying to tell me, but what I will say is free speech has a cost, its not free. The cost will reveal itself sooner or later.


Is it 'eternal vigilance'? Or are you hoping for more terrorist attacks against newspapers you disagree with?

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by ian on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:28pm

freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:23pm:
[

What utter bollocks. Yet this is parroted again and again by Ian, Brian and all the other apologists. They are never able to back it up.


ok then, let me ask you the question. If nambla was promoting a publication in this country  which was freely available showed pictures of young kids and promoted child  adult love would you still be in favour of their right to free speech. This was the question which Soren was too scared to answer. Take note, none of which I mentioned is actually illegal in this country. So lets have it. Lets see if you really are in favour of free speech.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by ian on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:30pm

freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:23pm:
[
In other words, he and his 'ilk' never actually said the things you attribute to him, but you 'know' it to be true anyway, because for you the idea of someone who actually supports freedom of speech is incomprehensible. You want the critics of Islam to be just as bad as the Muslims, because it saves you having to stand up for anything.

nah, I stand up for plenty of things I believe in and I dont like Muslims. But I am in favour of the truth and i love to expose hypocrites.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Steampipe on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:30pm

freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:23pm:

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm:
Responsible speech seems more attractive than free speech.

Free is only used when the cost is hidden, nothing is free.


No-one says you have to be attracted to it Steam pipe.


Quote:
Well according to you there isn't, I abide by and taught my kids that if someone cant handle what you have to say don't say it, you have nothing to gain.


If if they disagree with you and say it anyway, would you have them put in jail, or shot at, because some lunatic in a nightgown can't handle it?

BTW, there is something to gain - freedom of speech.

[quote]All countries have laws which limit free speech, the fact that we have these laws and 18c is so rarely used means the system works.


Wrong Ian, it means it works despite the laws. Yet we have people in jail for the 'crime' of promoting an alternative view on history.


Quote:
You dont want free speech, you want selective free speech for only those groups and people you personally approve of.


What utter bollocks. Yet this is parroted again and again by Ian, Brian and all the other apologists. They are never able to back it up.


Quote:
You on the other hand hide your agenda.


In other words, he and his 'ilk' never actually said the things you attribute to him, but you 'know' it to be true anyway, because for you the idea of someone who actually supports freedom of speech is incomprehensible. You want the critics of Islam to be just as bad as the Muslims, because it saves you having to stand up for anything.


Quote:
I don't know what you are trying to tell me, but what I will say is free speech has a cost, its not free. The cost will reveal itself sooner or later.


Is it 'eternal vigilance'? Or are you hoping for more terrorist attacks against newspapers you disagree with?[/quote]

You have read me all wrong, I do not object to free speech but it comes with responsibility. You are responsible for what you say and as with everything you say there will be consequences. We all have to weigh up the desire to exhibit our free speech and who we hurt and the consequences of what we say. I don't condone violence in any situation but it can and is a consequence of saying the wrong thing to the wrong person. Would you display you freedom of speech by telling a group of bikies that they reek of BO. Probably not, you would soon loose your appetite for freedom of speech.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by freediver on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:32pm
Back to the topic, no-one really knows whether Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia, because no-one (not even the judges and lawmakers) has figured out what the laws mean yet. There have only been a small number of test cases, and most of them could have been pursued via previously existing laws anyway.


Quote:
ok then, let me ask you the question. If nambla was promoting a publication in this country  which was freely available showed pictures of young kids and promoted child  adult love would you still be in favour of their right to free speech. This was the question which Soren was too scared to answer. Take note, none of which I mentioned is actually illegal in this country. So lets have it. Lets see if you really are in favour of free speech.


If the published child pornography, I would support their punishment. If they merely promoted the change in the laws, I would leave it to everyone else to shout them down, but would not ask for them to be censored. I have only ever heard of NAMBLA on South Park. I have never seen any serious promotion of the right to sex with children, except from Muslims.


Quote:
You have read me all wrong, I do not object to free speech but it comes with responsibility. You are responsible for what you say and as with everything you say there will be consequences. We all have to weigh up the desire to exhibit our free speech and who we hurt and the consequences of what we say. I don't condone violence in any situation but it can and is a consequence of saying the wrong thing to the wrong person. Would you display you freedom of speech by telling a group of bikies that they reek of BO. Probably not, you would soon loose your appetite for freedom of speech.


My interest in freedom of speech (and starting this website) was initially aroused by criticising the "wrong people". The quickest way to make someone a fan of free speech is to try to censor them. People don't realise what they have until they lose it. For most Australians, our freedom is handed to us on a platter and never challenged. That is why you see such bewildering calls for censorship in response to Charlie Hebdo. People see terrorists as the guy down at the pub that you should just ignore and he will go away, because that is the only reference point they have. A coordinated effort to strip you of all your rights and freedoms is incomprehensible, because we have not seen it for generations.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by ian on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:33pm
...........

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:35pm
Ahovking, I am unsure where your and other's belief that Australians have a Right to Freedom of Speech.  We don't and never had such a right.  Speech has always been subject to government and legal restriction in Australia.   ::)

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by ian on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:36pm

freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:32pm:
If the published child pornography, I would support their punishment. If they merely promoted the change in the laws, I would leave it to everyone else to shout them down, but would not ask for them to be censored. I have only ever heard of NAMBLA on South Park. I have never seen any serious promotion of the right to sex with children, except from Muslims.

.
Well you are in favour of free speech then.  Soren apparently isnt. And Im definitely not because my proposal is such activities should be illegal, do you condemn me now for not allowing free speech? Ive never seen any promotion of Muslims of the right to have sex with children, I think that ones in your own mind.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by ian on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:36pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:35pm:
Ahovking, I am unsure where your and other's belief that Australians have a Right to Freedom of Speech.  We don't and never had such a right.  Speech has always been subject to government and legal restriction in Australia.   ::)
he and others dont seem to understand this.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by freediver on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:38pm

Quote:
Soren apparently isnt.


When you say apparently, does that mean he hasn't answered your stupid questions, so you are filling in the blanks for him?

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by ian on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:42pm
.............

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by ian on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:44pm

freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:38pm:

Quote:
Soren apparently isnt.


When you say apparently, does that mean he hasn't answered your stupid questions, so you are filling in the blanks for him?
yep, just like he constantly does.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Amadd on Jan 14th, 2015 at 11:56pm
I think Charlie Hebdo  would've been censored in Australia.
When all's said and done, we're not very free or democratic here. Aussies are absolute tools IMO and I really hate to see what we have given away to the undemocratic viewpoint.

Everybody loves their own personal secrets. Their own secret little agenda or what it might be. Without that freedom, there will most certainly be mass KAOS.



Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Ahovking on Jan 15th, 2015 at 12:30am

ian wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:10pm:

Pantheon wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:30pm:

ian wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:21pm:

Pantheon wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:04pm:

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm:
Responsible speech seems more attractive than free speech.

Free is only used when the cost is hidden, nothing is free.


Responsible speech? With Section 18c, there is no Responsible speech, because you have no choice, theres no Responsible, its just a law to limited free speech.
All countries have laws which limit free speech, the fact that we have these laws and 18c is so rarely used means the system works.


Laws which limit free speech is a recent development, there have alway been a few that had laws in place limiting in some form or another free speech, but it has really grown out of control in recent years as the left grows more terrified at offending minorities or using small one off case to limit  free speech for all.

18c is so rarely used because its ridiculous and, it hasn't stopped racial hate speech or racial attacks etc, in fact its grown in recent years.
no they arent, laws limiting free speech have been around as long as democracy has, in fact every single democratic country has  laws limiting free speech  . 18c is used so rarely because people know it exists , thats why it works so well. Laws dont have to be applied to be effective.


In fact laws limiting free speech as been around as long as civilisation, king and queens would ban words deemed dangerous. 

Im 22 and i never head of 18c before Abbott bought it up, and my life is all about Australian politics, in deed 4 years of university studying Australian politics and Governance made no mention to 18c (Our education is shocking when it comes to teaching our own history and past.)

You ignored my point..

18c hasn't stopped racial hate speech or racial attacks etc, in fact its grown in recent years, and much of that growth comes from the youth.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Ahovking on Jan 15th, 2015 at 12:38am

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:35pm:
Ahovking, I am unsure where your and other's belief that Australians have a Right to Freedom of Speech.  We don't and never had such a right.  Speech has always been subject to government and legal restriction in Australia.   ::)


Freedom of speech is recognized in internationally and regionally as a human right, it is a God given (Natural given) right, state's dont need to give human the right to speak freely, From Athens and the roman empire to today, time and time again we have recognized the God given (Natural given) right of Freedom of speech as a Natural given right to humans.

The state is in a slowly attacking our freedom of speech (and other freedoms), you can see this over the years small pieces of laws and act were introduce to limit freedom of speech, its a march towards Socialist totalitarianism.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 15th, 2015 at 1:10am

Pantheon wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 12:38am:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:35pm:
Ahovking, I am unsure where your and other's belief that Australians have a Right to Freedom of Speech.  We don't and never had such a right.  Speech has always been subject to government and legal restriction in Australia.   ::)


Freedom of speech is recognized in internationally and regionally as a human right, it is a God given (Natural given) right, state's dont need to give human the right to speak freely, From Athens and the roman empire to today, time and time again we have recognized the God given (Natural given) right of Freedom of speech as a Natural given right to humans.

The state is in a slowly attacking our freedom of speech (and other freedoms), you can see this over the years small pieces of laws and act were introduce to limit freedom of speech, its a march towards Socialist totalitarianism.


If the State does not guarantee the rights it grants to it's citizens, then it does not effectively exist, Ahovking.

In Australia, we only have an "implied right" to Freedom of Speech.  An implied right found by the High Court, which is not clearly enunciated in any government document or legislation.  What is enunciated is the limitations on speech.  These have been enacted since the time of colonisation in Australia.

Rights are created by men, for men to enjoy, Ahovking.  Their is no God involved, they do not spring out of the ground like plants.  Please leave the metaphysical stuff for your bed time stories.   ::)

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Ahovking on Jan 15th, 2015 at 1:52am

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 1:10am:

Pantheon wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 12:38am:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:35pm:
Ahovking, I am unsure where your and other's belief that Australians have a Right to Freedom of Speech.  We don't and never had such a right.  Speech has always been subject to government and legal restriction in Australia.   ::)


Freedom of speech is recognized in internationally and regionally as a human right, it is a God given (Natural given) right, state's dont need to give human the right to speak freely, From Athens and the roman empire to today, time and time again we have recognized the God given (Natural given) right of Freedom of speech as a Natural given right to humans.

The state is in a slowly attacking our freedom of speech (and other freedoms), you can see this over the years small pieces of laws and act were introduce to limit freedom of speech, its a march towards Socialist totalitarianism.


If the State does not guarantee the rights it grants to it's citizens, then it does not effectively exist, Ahovking.

In Australia, we only have an "implied right" to Freedom of Speech.  An implied right found by the High Court, which is not clearly enunciated in any government document or legislation.  What is enunciated is the limitations on speech.  These have been enacted since the time of colonisation in Australia.

Rights are created by men, for men to enjoy, Ahovking.  Their is no God involved, they do not spring out of the ground like plants.  Please leave the metaphysical stuff for your bed time stories.   ::)


There are natural laws, Laws that dictate nature, within these laws, animal are able to express their feeling and thoughts freely, inherent this is freedom of expression, we see it though out the animal world,

So if a state bans a right (freedom) that is natural to us (speaking our mind for example) it is limiting our natural freedom or right.

I think your getting confused between Natural and legal rights, legal rights state determine, Natural rights state can only limit.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Ahovking on Jan 15th, 2015 at 2:00am

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 1:10am:

Pantheon wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 12:38am:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:35pm:
Ahovking, I am unsure where your and other's belief that Australians have a Right to Freedom of Speech.  We don't and never had such a right.  Speech has always been subject to government and legal restriction in Australia.   ::)


Freedom of speech is recognized in internationally and regionally as a human right, it is a God given (Natural given) right, state's dont need to give human the right to speak freely, From Athens and the roman empire to today, time and time again we have recognized the God given (Natural given) right of Freedom of speech as a Natural given right to humans.

The state is in a slowly attacking our freedom of speech (and other freedoms), you can see this over the years small pieces of laws and act were introduce to limit freedom of speech, its a march towards Socialist totalitarianism.


If the State does not guarantee the rights it grants to it's citizens, then it does not effectively exist, Ahovking.

In Australia, we only have an "implied right" to Freedom of Speech.  An implied right found by the High Court, which is not clearly enunciated in any government document or legislation.  What is enunciated is the limitations on speech.  These have been enacted since the time of colonisation in Australia.

Rights are created by men, for men to enjoy, Ahovking.  Their is no God involved, they do not spring out of the ground like plants.  Please leave the metaphysical stuff for your bed time stories.   ::)


Another issue is the the concept of natural laws and right was used to challenge the divine right of kings, without it concept of natural laws and right, state once again become a problem, as our freedoms is something that can be taken away, something that is given to us for good behaviour, we would be abandoning everything we achieve during the Age of Enlightenment.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Phemanderac on Jan 15th, 2015 at 5:36am
Garbage articles by garbage journalists.

Here is why.

NO cartoon in this country has been tested or challenged by 18C. As such, it is not proven that Satire would be pulled up.

Secondly, if Charlie Hedbo was in Australia, then most likely some of it's satire (at some point) may be tested against 18C and also, some may be found wanting. That would not automatically mean that Charlie Hedbo (the magazine) would close down, cease to exist or disappear in a puff of smoke. The proof of this, why, Andrew Bolt of course. He failed the 18C test spectacularly and yet, he is still exercising his right to free speech, daily.

So, rubbish articles designed to capitalize from the Charlie Hedbo mass murder. Exercising free speech, these people are scum.

As to laws of nature, real laws of nature cannot be effected, limited or changed in anyway shape or form by man.

Example, blades of grass always move in the same pattern when blowing in the wind - that is a law of nature.

Free speech is a human concept for humans alone. Animals are not subject to freedom of expression, that's why we have culls, zoos and animal companion act laws.

Then we move to the child pornography and free speech furphy.

The argument of a low life imbecile. Anything that has images of sex between an adult and a child breaches child protection laws. We live in a society that has this idea you see that children under 18 years of age are not able to make informed decisions around many matters, including sex. As such, yep, it is most likely a form of censorship, however, more to the point - action taken legally against any publication that depicts sex with Children is based on protection of children who cannot make informed decisions and, rather little to do with limiting freedom of speech - only a pedophile or supporter of such practice would argue otherwise.


Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Sir Bobby on Jan 15th, 2015 at 5:45am

Pantheon wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 12:30am:

ian wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:10pm:

Pantheon wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:30pm:

ian wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:21pm:

Pantheon wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:04pm:

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm:
Responsible speech seems more attractive than free speech.

Free is only used when the cost is hidden, nothing is free.


Responsible speech? With Section 18c, there is no Responsible speech, because you have no choice, theres no Responsible, its just a law to limited free speech.
All countries have laws which limit free speech, the fact that we have these laws and 18c is so rarely used means the system works.


Laws which limit free speech is a recent development, there have alway been a few that had laws in place limiting in some form or another free speech, but it has really grown out of control in recent years as the left grows more terrified at offending minorities or using small one off case to limit  free speech for all.

18c is so rarely used because its ridiculous and, it hasn't stopped racial hate speech or racial attacks etc, in fact its grown in recent years.
no they arent, laws limiting free speech have been around as long as democracy has, in fact every single democratic country has  laws limiting free speech  . 18c is used so rarely because people know it exists , thats why it works so well. Laws dont have to be applied to be effective.


In fact laws limiting free speech as been around as long as civilisation, king and queens would ban words deemed dangerous. 

Im 22 and i never head of 18c before Abbott bought it up, and my life is all about Australian politics, in deed 4 years of university studying Australian politics and Governance made no mention to 18c (Our education is shocking when it comes to teaching our own history and past.)

You ignored my point..

18c hasn't stopped racial hate speech or racial attacks etc, in fact its grown in recent years, and much of that growth comes from the youth.



Certain words are banned on this forum.

Censorship is everywhere.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by ian on Jan 15th, 2015 at 6:26am

Phemanderac wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 5:36am:

The argument of a low life imbecile. Anything that has images of sex between an adult and a child breaches child protection laws. We live in a society that has this idea you see that children under 18 years of age are not able to make informed decisions around many matters, including sex. As such, yep, it is most likely a form of censorship, however, more to the point - action taken legally against any publication that depicts sex with Children is based on protection of children who cannot make informed decisions and, rather little to do with limiting freedom of speech - only a pedophile or supporter of such practice would argue otherwise.

correct, but what or who are you responding to. ? Its not illegal to promote love between adults and children in this country, neither is it illegal to publish pictures of naked children. Not seeing your point here.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by ian on Jan 15th, 2015 at 6:27am
..................

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by ian on Jan 15th, 2015 at 6:34am

Phemanderac wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 5:36am:


Secondly, if Charlie Hedbo was in Australia, then most likely some of it's satire (at some point) may be tested against 18C and also, some may be found wanting. That would not automatically mean that Charlie Hedbo (the magazine) would close down, cease to exist or disappear in a puff of smoke. The proof of this, why, Andrew Bolt of course. He failed the 18C test spectacularly and yet, he is still exercising his right to free speech, daily.

absolute nonsense, go take your memory pills, you need something

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Gnads on Jan 15th, 2015 at 6:55am

Pantheon wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 8:10pm:

Quote:
Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act 1975 (Cth) makes it unlawful to “offend, insult humiliate or intimidate” a person on the grounds of “race, colour or national or ethnic origin”. Section 18C was the provision used against News Corp Australia journalist Andrew Bolt in 2011 for two columns he had published in 2009.

“This week leaders from around the world have united to defend the right of publications like Charlie Hebdo to publish content that is offensive to some,” says Mr Breheny.

“But a publication such as Charlie Hebdo would struggle to survive in Australia, due to laws that censor offensive, insulting, humiliating and intimidating speech. Section 18C could be used against the publishers of cartoons that satirise figures based on their race or ethnicity. Content not caught by section 18C would almost certainly be censored by current state religious vilification laws, which are specifically designed to target the kind of content published in Charlie Hebdo.”

“The attack on Charlie Hebdo is an attack on freedom of expression. And as Prime Minister Tony Abbott rightly noted in response to this atrocity, ‘Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society.’”

“The Abbott government should seek to put the prime minister’s words into action by repealing existing Australian laws that restrict free speech, starting with section 18C,” says Mr Breheny.

Currently 18C makes it unlawful to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person because of their race, colour or national or ethnic origin.

http://www.news.com.au/national/charlie-hebdo-would-be-censored-in-australia-freedom-commissioner-tim-wilson/story-fncynjr2-1227183150030

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/terror/being-charlie-with-18c-in-place-australia-says-non/story-fnpdbcmu-1227182736935

http://australianconservative.com/2015/01/paris-massacre-at-charlie-hebdo-shows-why-rda-section-18c-must-go-%E2%80%93-ipa/


Sounds like Australians need to grow up and the left to harden up.

As a great man once said  ;)

"We have to be prepared to speak up for our beliefs. We have to be prepared to call things as we see them. Of cause from time to time poeple will be upset, offended, insulted, humiliated... But it is all part of a free society...Because in the end the cornerstone of progress is free speech.


So in that case if Charlie Hebdo was in Australia they should be off the hook re: 18C

Islam is a religion not a race or ethnicity.

Isn't it?  ::)

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by cods on Jan 15th, 2015 at 7:13am

ian wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 6:26am:

Phemanderac wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 5:36am:

The argument of a low life imbecile. Anything that has images of sex between an adult and a child breaches child protection laws. We live in a society that has this idea you see that children under 18 years of age are not able to make informed decisions around many matters, including sex. As such, yep, it is most likely a form of censorship, however, more to the point - action taken legally against any publication that depicts sex with Children is based on protection of children who cannot make informed decisions and, rather little to do with limiting freedom of speech - only a pedophile or supporter of such practice would argue otherwise.

correct, but what or who are you responding to. ? Its not illegal to promote love between adults and children in this country, neither is it illegal to publish pictures of naked children. Not seeing your point here.




since when???...you are not allowed to take pictures of children unless they are your own in a play ground...let alone naked children...

and what sort of love between children and adults are you referring too??.. >:( >:(

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by ian on Jan 15th, 2015 at 7:15am

Gnads wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 6:55am:

Pantheon wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 8:10pm:

Quote:
Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act 1975 (Cth) makes it unlawful to “offend, insult humiliate or intimidate” a person on the grounds of “race, colour or national or ethnic origin”. Section 18C was the provision used against News Corp Australia journalist Andrew Bolt in 2011 for two columns he had published in 2009.

“This week leaders from around the world have united to defend the right of publications like Charlie Hebdo to publish content that is offensive to some,” says Mr Breheny.

“But a publication such as Charlie Hebdo would struggle to survive in Australia, due to laws that censor offensive, insulting, humiliating and intimidating speech. Section 18C could be used against the publishers of cartoons that satirise figures based on their race or ethnicity. Content not caught by section 18C would almost certainly be censored by current state religious vilification laws, which are specifically designed to target the kind of content published in Charlie Hebdo.”

“The attack on Charlie Hebdo is an attack on freedom of expression. And as Prime Minister Tony Abbott rightly noted in response to this atrocity, ‘Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society.’”

“The Abbott government should seek to put the prime minister’s words into action by repealing existing Australian laws that restrict free speech, starting with section 18C,” says Mr Breheny.

Currently 18C makes it unlawful to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person because of their race, colour or national or ethnic origin.

http://www.news.com.au/national/charlie-hebdo-would-be-censored-in-australia-freedom-commissioner-tim-wilson/story-fncynjr2-1227183150030

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/terror/being-charlie-with-18c-in-place-australia-says-non/story-fnpdbcmu-1227182736935

http://australianconservative.com/2015/01/paris-massacre-at-charlie-hebdo-shows-why-rda-section-18c-must-go-%E2%80%93-ipa/


Sounds like Australians need to grow up and the left to harden up.

As a great man once said  ;)

"We have to be prepared to speak up for our beliefs. We have to be prepared to call things as we see them. Of cause from time to time poeple will be upset, offended, insulted, humiliated... But it is all part of a free society...Because in the end the cornerstone of progress is free speech.


So in that case if Charlie Hebdo was in Australia they should be off the hook re: 18C

Islam is a religion not a race or ethnicity.

Isn't it?  ::)
The cartoons insult race and religion, thats obvious.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by ian on Jan 15th, 2015 at 7:18am

cods wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 7:13am:

ian wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 6:26am:

Phemanderac wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 5:36am:

The argument of a low life imbecile. Anything that has images of sex between an adult and a child breaches child protection laws. We live in a society that has this idea you see that children under 18 years of age are not able to make informed decisions around many matters, including sex. As such, yep, it is most likely a form of censorship, however, more to the point - action taken legally against any publication that depicts sex with Children is based on protection of children who cannot make informed decisions and, rather little to do with limiting freedom of speech - only a pedophile or supporter of such practice would argue otherwise.

correct, but what or who are you responding to. ? Its not illegal to promote love between adults and children in this country, neither is it illegal to publish pictures of naked children. Not seeing your point here.




since when???...you are not allowed to take pictures of children unless they are your own in a play ground...let alone naked children...

and what sort of love between children and adults are you referring too??.. >:( >:(
Im not talking about a playground, it is not illegal to publish pictures of naked children in this country.
http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/art-and-design/henson-returns-to-the-most-provocative-landscape-of-all-20120912-25rrv.html



Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Gnads on Jan 15th, 2015 at 7:20am
So the cartoons leave no doubt & deliberately depict "race"? i.e. Arab?

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Yadda on Jan 15th, 2015 at 8:05am

Steampipe wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 9:00pm:

Responsible speech
seems more attractive than free speech.

Free is only used when the cost is hidden, nothing is free.



Steampipe,

'Responsible speech' ?

'Read all about it.'






IMAGE....




Quote:

S. African Muslims: Free speech limited when “connected to the heart of the Muslim”
Jan 11, 2015 01:57 pm | Robert Spencer

As I predicted, in the wake of the Paris jihad attacks, the Islamic war on the freedom of speech is escalating, as Muslims worldwide work to extinguish the freedom of speech

and compel the free world to adopt Sharia blasphemy laws restricting criticism of Islam.

Google




QUESTION;
What is the 'message' being conveyed, by moslems, in the image above ?

What does that 'message' signify and intend ?

To answer that, simply look at the image below;




IMAGE.....


"Freedom of expression GO TO HELL!"



Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Phemanderac on Jan 15th, 2015 at 9:12am

ian wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 6:26am:

Phemanderac wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 5:36am:

The argument of a low life imbecile. Anything that has images of sex between an adult and a child breaches child protection laws. We live in a society that has this idea you see that children under 18 years of age are not able to make informed decisions around many matters, including sex. As such, yep, it is most likely a form of censorship, however, more to the point - action taken legally against any publication that depicts sex with Children is based on protection of children who cannot make informed decisions and, rather little to do with limiting freedom of speech - only a pedophile or supporter of such practice would argue otherwise.

correct, but what or who are you responding to. ? Its not illegal to promote love between adults and children in this country, neither is it illegal to publish pictures of naked children. Not seeing your point here.


Um by all means go for a re-read....

Perhaps of the entire thread, since you need to ask "who are you responding to..."

Further, it is ILLEGAL to make or have images of children depicting sex acts with adults. One would think that does not need explanation, further, it is a slightly different issue than naked pictures, which actually do have some legal implications.

In short, you are not seeing the point here either because you have not read it thoroughly or have not comprehended what was said. It is after all fairly straight forward mate.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Phemanderac on Jan 15th, 2015 at 9:16am
I would also challenge you Ian to test your theory, you see your use of the word "if". That is hypothetical therefore.

I think you would most certainly run into issues if there was even a hint of promoting and/or supporting pedophilia...

Child protection laws are in place for a reason.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Ahovking on Jan 15th, 2015 at 10:31am

Phemanderac wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 5:36am:
Garbage articles by garbage journalists.

Here is why.

NO cartoon in this country has been tested or challenged by 18C. As such, it is not proven that Satire would be pulled up.

Secondly, if Charlie Hedbo was in Australia, then most likely some of it's satire (at some point) may be tested against 18C and also, some may be found wanting. That would not automatically mean that Charlie Hedbo (the magazine) would close down, cease to exist or disappear in a puff of smoke. The proof of this, why, Andrew Bolt of course. He failed the 18C test spectacularly and yet, he is still exercising his right to free speech, daily.

So, rubbish articles designed to capitalize from the Charlie Hedbo mass murder. Exercising free speech, these people are scum.

As to laws of nature, real laws of nature cannot be effected, limited or changed in anyway shape or form by man.

Example, blades of grass always move in the same pattern when blowing in the wind - that is a law of nature.

Free speech is a human concept for humans alone. Animals are not subject to freedom of expression, that's why we have culls, zoos and animal companion act laws.

Then we move to the child pornography and free speech furphy.

The argument of a low life imbecile. Anything that has images of sex between an adult and a child breaches child protection laws. We live in a society that has this idea you see that children under 18 years of age are not able to make informed decisions around many matters, including sex. As such, yep, it is most likely a form of censorship, however, more to the point - action taken legally against any publication that depicts sex with Children is based on protection of children who cannot make informed decisions and, rather little to do with limiting freedom of speech - only a pedophile or supporter of such practice would argue otherwise.


But don't you see, A lion roaring is itself an expression, animals (humans included) are born will the freedom to express themselves, we do don't need a state to tell us we have a right to express ourselves.

Its troubling to see the left throwing away everything we have achieved during the Age of Enlightenment.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Ahovking on Jan 15th, 2015 at 10:35am

Gnads wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 6:55am:

Pantheon wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 8:10pm:

Quote:
Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act 1975 (Cth) makes it unlawful to “offend, insult humiliate or intimidate” a person on the grounds of “race, colour or national or ethnic origin”. Section 18C was the provision used against News Corp Australia journalist Andrew Bolt in 2011 for two columns he had published in 2009.

“This week leaders from around the world have united to defend the right of publications like Charlie Hebdo to publish content that is offensive to some,” says Mr Breheny.

“But a publication such as Charlie Hebdo would struggle to survive in Australia, due to laws that censor offensive, insulting, humiliating and intimidating speech. Section 18C could be used against the publishers of cartoons that satirise figures based on their race or ethnicity. Content not caught by section 18C would almost certainly be censored by current state religious vilification laws, which are specifically designed to target the kind of content published in Charlie Hebdo.”

“The attack on Charlie Hebdo is an attack on freedom of expression. And as Prime Minister Tony Abbott rightly noted in response to this atrocity, ‘Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society.’”

“The Abbott government should seek to put the prime minister’s words into action by repealing existing Australian laws that restrict free speech, starting with section 18C,” says Mr Breheny.

Currently 18C makes it unlawful to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person because of their race, colour or national or ethnic origin.

http://www.news.com.au/national/charlie-hebdo-would-be-censored-in-australia-freedom-commissioner-tim-wilson/story-fncynjr2-1227183150030

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/terror/being-charlie-with-18c-in-place-australia-says-non/story-fnpdbcmu-1227182736935

http://australianconservative.com/2015/01/paris-massacre-at-charlie-hebdo-shows-why-rda-section-18c-must-go-%E2%80%93-ipa/


Sounds like Australians need to grow up and the left to harden up.

As a great man once said  ;)

"We have to be prepared to speak up for our beliefs. We have to be prepared to call things as we see them. Of cause from time to time poeple will be upset, offended, insulted, humiliated... But it is all part of a free society...Because in the end the cornerstone of progress is free speech.


So in that case if Charlie Hebdo was in Australia they should be off the hook re: 18C

Islam is a religion not a race or ethnicity.

Isn't it?  ::)


Have you read the cartoons? it insult race and religion, and a lot of other things. Under 18C you would have the left screaming while marching in the streets "double standerds for islam" cracking down on everything apart from any islamic.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by ian on Jan 15th, 2015 at 11:31am

Phemanderac wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 9:16am:
I would also challenge you Ian to test your theory, you see your use of the word "if". That is hypothetical therefore.

I think you would most certainly run into issues if there was even a hint of promoting and/or supporting pedophilia...

Child protection laws are in place for a reason.

Read my link, Bill Henson, its already been tested. Did he run into issues, yes. But ngt legal ones, they tried and failed. They even changed the law in NSW after his exhibit, but still not illegal to publish naked pictures of children. hypothetical or not this has issue exposed the hypocrisy and the motives of those condemning Islam.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by ian on Jan 15th, 2015 at 11:33am

Phemanderac wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 9:12am:

ian wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 6:26am:

Phemanderac wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 5:36am:

The argument of a low life imbecile. Anything that has images of sex between an adult and a child breaches child protection laws. We live in a society that has this idea you see that children under 18 years of age are not able to make informed decisions around many matters, including sex. As such, yep, it is most likely a form of censorship, however, more to the point - action taken legally against any publication that depicts sex with Children is based on protection of children who cannot make informed decisions and, rather little to do with limiting freedom of speech - only a pedophile or supporter of such practice would argue otherwise.

correct, but what or who are you responding to. ? Its not illegal to promote love between adults and children in this country, neither is it illegal to publish pictures of naked children. Not seeing your point here.


Um by all means go for a re-read....

Perhaps of the entire thread, since you need to ask "who are you responding to..."

Further, it is ILLEGAL to make or have images of children depicting sex acts with adults. One would think that does not need explanation, further, it is a slightly different issue than naked pictures, which actually do have some legal implications.

In short, you are not seeing the point here either because you have not read it thoroughly or have not comprehended what was said. It is after all fairly straight forward mate.
you responded to a post which was never made, I did not mention child porn, that bit is in your mind.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Sir lastnail on Jan 15th, 2015 at 1:40pm

ian wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 7:15am:

Gnads wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 6:55am:

Pantheon wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 8:10pm:

Quote:
Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act 1975 (Cth) makes it unlawful to “offend, insult humiliate or intimidate” a person on the grounds of “race, colour or national or ethnic origin”. Section 18C was the provision used against News Corp Australia journalist Andrew Bolt in 2011 for two columns he had published in 2009.

“This week leaders from around the world have united to defend the right of publications like Charlie Hebdo to publish content that is offensive to some,” says Mr Breheny.

“But a publication such as Charlie Hebdo would struggle to survive in Australia, due to laws that censor offensive, insulting, humiliating and intimidating speech. Section 18C could be used against the publishers of cartoons that satirise figures based on their race or ethnicity. Content not caught by section 18C would almost certainly be censored by current state religious vilification laws, which are specifically designed to target the kind of content published in Charlie Hebdo.”

“The attack on Charlie Hebdo is an attack on freedom of expression. And as Prime Minister Tony Abbott rightly noted in response to this atrocity, ‘Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society.’”

“The Abbott government should seek to put the prime minister’s words into action by repealing existing Australian laws that restrict free speech, starting with section 18C,” says Mr Breheny.

Currently 18C makes it unlawful to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person because of their race, colour or national or ethnic origin.

http://www.news.com.au/national/charlie-hebdo-would-be-censored-in-australia-freedom-commissioner-tim-wilson/story-fncynjr2-1227183150030

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/terror/being-charlie-with-18c-in-place-australia-says-non/story-fnpdbcmu-1227182736935

http://australianconservative.com/2015/01/paris-massacre-at-charlie-hebdo-shows-why-rda-section-18c-must-go-%E2%80%93-ipa/


Sounds like Australians need to grow up and the left to harden up.

As a great man once said  ;)

"We have to be prepared to speak up for our beliefs. We have to be prepared to call things as we see them. Of cause from time to time poeple will be upset, offended, insulted, humiliated... But it is all part of a free society...Because in the end the cornerstone of progress is free speech.


So in that case if Charlie Hebdo was in Australia they should be off the hook re: 18C

Islam is a religion not a race or ethnicity.

Isn't it?  ::)
The cartoons insult race and religion, thats obvious.


what's wrong with insulting religion ? It's not as though is it based on fact is it.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Setanta on Jan 15th, 2015 at 1:48pm

Pantheon wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 8:10pm:

Quote:
Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act 1975 (Cth) makes it unlawful to “offend, insult humiliate or intimidate” a person on the grounds of “race, colour or national or ethnic origin”. Section 18C was the provision used against News Corp Australia journalist Andrew Bolt in 2011 for two columns he had published in 2009.

“This week leaders from around the world have united to defend the right of publications like Charlie Hebdo to publish content that is offensive to some,” says Mr Breheny.

“But a publication such as Charlie Hebdo would struggle to survive in Australia, due to laws that censor offensive, insulting, humiliating and intimidating speech. Section 18C could be used against the publishers of cartoons that satirise figures based on their race or ethnicity. Content not caught by section 18C would almost certainly be censored by current state religious vilification laws, which are specifically designed to target the kind of content published in Charlie Hebdo.”

“The attack on Charlie Hebdo is an attack on freedom of expression. And as Prime Minister Tony Abbott rightly noted in response to this atrocity, ‘Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society.’”

“The Abbott government should seek to put the prime minister’s words into action by repealing existing Australian laws that restrict free speech, starting with section 18C,” says Mr Breheny.

Currently 18C makes it unlawful to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person because of their race, colour or national or ethnic origin.

http://www.news.com.au/national/charlie-hebdo-would-be-censored-in-australia-freedom-commissioner-tim-wilson/story-fncynjr2-1227183150030

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/terror/being-charlie-with-18c-in-place-australia-says-non/story-fnpdbcmu-1227182736935

http://australianconservative.com/2015/01/paris-massacre-at-charlie-hebdo-shows-why-rda-section-18c-must-go-%E2%80%93-ipa/


Sounds like Australians need to grow up and the left to harden up.

As a great man once said  ;)

"We have to be prepared to speak up for our beliefs. We have to be prepared to call things as we see them. Of cause from time to time poeple will be upset, offended, insulted, humiliated... But it is all part of a free society...Because in the end the cornerstone of progress is free speech.


How about 18D Ahovking? What does that say? http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/rda1975202/s18d.html


Quote:
RACIAL DISCRIMINATION ACT 1975 - SECT 18D

Exemptions
                   Section 18C does not render unlawful anything said or done reasonably and in good faith:

                     (a)  in the performance, exhibition or distribution of an artistic work; or

                     (b)  in the course of any statement, publication, discussion or debate made or held for any genuine academic, artistic or scientific purpose or any other genuine purpose in the public interest; or

                     (c)  in making or publishing:

                              (i)  a fair and accurate report of any event or matter of public interest; or

                             (ii)  a fair comment on any event or matter of public interest if the comment is an expression of a genuine belief held by the person making the comment.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Raven on Jan 15th, 2015 at 2:04pm
Charlie Hebdo would not be censored in this country based on 18C

18C outlaws any public act that is reasonably likely to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person or group, and which is done because of their race, colour or national or ethnic origin.

Not their religion.

18C would not apply because any offense taken would be based on religious belief and not race.

Secondly 18D kills 18C. According to 18D 18C does not apply to any acts that are done reasonably and in good faith, and which are one of these: artistic works; statements made for any genuine academic, artistic or scientific purpose or other genuine purpose in the public interest; fair or accurate reports of matters of public interest; or fair comment (based on a genuinely held belief) on matters of public interest.

That adds up to a lot of ways in which words or pictures cannot be caught by 18C, and they all apply no matter how offended or insulted the victims are.

Based on all this Human Rights Commissioner Tim Wilson is wrong Charlie Hebdo would not be censored because of 18C

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by freediver on Jan 15th, 2015 at 2:05pm
There is a naked picture of a child on this website. I have not run into any issues with it yet.


ian wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:44pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 10:38pm:

Quote:
Soren apparently isnt.


When you say apparently, does that mean he hasn't answered your stupid questions, so you are filling in the blanks for him?
yep, just like he constantly does.


So you deliberately lie because you think other people are doing the same?


Quote:
18c hasn't stopped racial hate speech or racial attacks etc, in fact its grown in recent years, and much of that growth comes from the youth.


I think there is a guy in jail for holocaust denial on his website, but his website is still up and receiving more attention than ever.


Quote:
Rights are created by men, for men to enjoy, Ahovking.  Their is no God involved, they do not spring out of the ground like plants.  Please leave the metaphysical stuff for your bed time stories.


You have to speak really slowly for this one, Ahovking.


Quote:
The argument of a low life imbecile. Anything that has images of sex between an adult and a child breaches child protection laws. We live in a society that has this idea you see that children under 18 years of age are not able to make informed decisions around many matters, including sex. As such, yep, it is most likely a form of censorship, however, more to the point - action taken legally against any publication that depicts sex with Children is based on protection of children who cannot make informed decisions and, rather little to do with limiting freedom of speech - only a pedophile or supporter of such practice would argue otherwise.


Abu wanted the age of consent lowered to the onset of puberty, and further erosion of children's rights so that sex with even younger children could not be effectively prosecuted.


Quote:
Certain words are banned on this forum.
Censorship is everywhere.


Bobby, freedom of speech does not mean you can compel someone else to publish or broadcast your words for you. Nor can you force people to listen to your BS.


Quote:
absolute nonsense, go take your memory pills, you need something


18c is still a massive grey area. No-one knows how far it could be taken.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Raven on Jan 15th, 2015 at 2:33pm
It needs to be remembered that Section 18C is part of a Racial Discrimination Act. It is not a free-standing piece of legislation targeting speech, as many critics would have it.

Since the Bolt case, Section 18C has been denounced as if someone merely taking offense can seek relief under the Act. Of course this is not the way the provisions operate. An action must meet a number of stringent tests before it can be considered unlawful. Even then, per the exemptions of Section 18D, offensive and insulting action cannot be considered unlawful if it is done reasonably and in good faith in artistic, scientific, academic or journalistic pursuits in the public interest.

We are told consistently by defenders of free speech that freedom is the most fundamental human value that sits atop all others, and one which is routinely overlooked by public policy in Australia. As the Institute of Public Affairs explains


Quote:
Australia's well-funded human rights establishment has completely vacated the field on basic rights like freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and freedom of association.


If freedom of speech means it's acceptable, however regretful, to vilify someone on the basis of their skin, then surely it's also acceptable, if regretful, to vilify them on the basis of character. So we should consider watering down defamation laws. The Trade Practices Act prohibits companies and executives talking to one another about price collusion or market manipulation. But again, this is fundamentally an impingement on their right to free speech.

Some of the loudest champions of free speech and critics of Section 18C are journalists and media organisations that themselves impose, formally or implicitly, speech codes on what their readers or viewers can say in comments on newspaper columns or TV programs. And their codes are far more restrictive than anything in the RDA. Typically they preclude incitement to violence or hatred, offensive, threatening or obscene comments, and gratuitous abuse.

Yet even if freedom is paramount there are different freedoms to be balanced as the IPA's assertion implies. The economist Amartya Sen offers an example of different kinds of justice. Three children fight over a toy flute. One has no other toys, when the others have many. One can play the flute, when the others can't. One made the flute, when the others didn't. Each has a just claim to the flute, but these are different kind of justices which must be balanced.

So how do we reconcile one persons right to free speech against another persons right to freedom from racial vilification? What the existing Racial Discrimination Act seeks to do is balance these freedoms. To protect freedom of speech, the Act specifies that, provided they are offered in good faith, artistic works, scientific debate and fair comment on a matter of public interest are exempt from the vilification laws.

Each of the freedom of speech examples above balances similar freedoms. Public order laws protect a freedom from insult or offence. Defamation laws protect a freedom from unjust reputational damage. The Trade Practices Act protects consumers' freedom from excess market power.

Democracies that emphasise free speech and the other civil liberties often enshrine them in a bill of rights. In the United States, where civil libertarianism looms largest, there is also a tradition of judicial review and jurisprudence to aggressively interpret and adjudicate these values. However the Coalition have long been opposed to a bill of rights for Australia and the kind of judicial scrutiny that it involves.

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Raven on Jan 15th, 2015 at 2:59pm
......

Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by Soren on Jan 15th, 2015 at 5:49pm

ian wrote on Jan 15th, 2015 at 7:15am:
Islam is a religion not a race or ethnicity.

Isn't it?  ::)
The cartoons insult race and religion, thats obvious.
[/quote]


SO if you draw a mocking picture of an Anglican vicar, you are insulting Anglicans AND white people.
If you draw him as an African Anglican, then you mock Anglicans AND Africans.

As I said, too many punches to your head, pal.


Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by freediver on Jan 15th, 2015 at 10:09pm
To avoid insult, you must depict a person without race.


Title: Re: Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia
Post by buzzanddidj on Jan 15th, 2015 at 10:56pm

Pantheon wrote on Jan 14th, 2015 at 8:10pm:
Charlie Hebdo would be censored in Australia







Section 18D of the Constitution clearly outlines exemptions including SATIRE and PARODY





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