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http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl General Discussion >> Thinking Globally >> Je Suis [insert holocaust denier] http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1421256453 Message started by gandalf on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 3:27am

Title: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gandalf on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 3:27am

In the aftermath of the Charlie Hebdo attacks in which we are seeing a tsunami of support for free speech in France - and indeed the whole of the western world, is everyone missing the elephant in the room here?

Holocaust denial is subject to legal restrictions in many European countries. This amounts to a thought crime, and is an outrageous affront to the principle of free speech. There's just no other way of spinning this. If this Charlie Hebdo business doesn't jolt Europe into reconsidering these egregious attacks on free speech, then the hypocrisy will be breathtaking.

The masses of French people who are spontaneously coming out onto the street to stand up for free speech might want to examine their own laws on holocaust denial:

Quote:

In France, the Gayssot Act, voted for on July 13, 1990, makes it illegal to question the existence of crimes that fall in the category of crimes against humanity as defined in the London Charter of 1945, on the basis of which Nazi leaders were convicted by the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1945-46. When the act was challenged by Robert Faurisson, the Human Rights Committee upheld it as a necessary means to counter possible antisemitism.[22] In 2012, the Constitutional Council of France ruled that to extend the Gayssot Act to the Armenian Genocide denial was unconstitutional because it violated the freedom of speech

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial#France

The last sentence in bold took my breath away when I first read it.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gandalf on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:19am

Hypocrisy within hypocrisy: not only are holocaust denial laws an attack on free speech, but in the law itself, one type of genocide denial is allowed while another is not.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Rocketanski on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 6:04am

I really hate to admit this; I agree.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by freediver on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 9:18am

Gandalf do you support the Australian laws that outlaw holocaust denial?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Soren on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 10:56am

There are some significant differences between the holocaust and genocide. The holocaust is a type of genocide but it remains unique in its scale and especially in its methods, industrial and bureaucratic scale, and the co-opting of the entire state apparatus as a matter of policy.
I do not think these aspects were present in genocide of the Armenians.

Holocaust is a word going back to the middle ages and is specifically used to describe the systematic pogroms against the Jews. Genocide is a word coined during WWII to describe the systematic murdering of others, like Poles.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Sir Bobby on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 11:05am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:19am:

Hypocrisy within hypocrisy: not only are holocaust denial laws an attack on free speech, but in the law itself, one type of genocide denial is allowed while another is not.

Criticising a non - existent God is different to denying the murder
of 6 million Jews & 6 million other people for
which the evidence is over whelming.

There is no elephant in the room.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by stryker on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 11:12am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:19am:

Hypocrisy within hypocrisy: not only are holocaust denial laws an attack on free speech, but in the law itself, one type of genocide denial is allowed while another is not.

I agree with gandalf as well, I think this denial of free speech on this topic is stupid as well.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Rocketanski on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 3:44pm

There's something getting in the way of the Hollywood endorsed version of 'the Holocaust'. It's called evidence.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Hot Breath on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 3:54pm

freediver wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 9:18am:

Gandalf do you support the Australian laws that outlaw holocaust denial?

What laws specifically outlaw Holocaust Denial FD? I'd be interested to see you actually quote them. ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D :D :D

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by life_goes_on on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:32pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xryTCueKWI

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gandalf on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 4:30am

freediver wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 9:18am:

Gandalf do you support the Australian laws that outlaw holocaust denial?

The idea that rejecting the historical evidence of a particular event in history amounts to racial discrimination is absurd - don't you think?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by freediver on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 10:29am

Not entirely, although I do think you have to actually do something in order to "discriminate," at least in the legal sense.

Do you support censorship of holocaust denial Gandalf?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Baronvonrort on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 10:35am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 4:30am:

freediver wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 9:18am:

Gandalf do you support the Australian laws that outlaw holocaust denial?

The idea that rejecting the historical evidence of a particular event in history amounts to racial discrimination is absurd - don't you think?

Are you in the holocaust denier camp Gandalf or do you think it happened?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by cods on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 10:37am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:19am:

Hypocrisy within hypocrisy: not only are holocaust denial laws an attack on free speech, but in the law itself, one type of genocide denial is allowed while another is not.

no good asking FD about Freedom of speech.. he doesnt even allow that on this forum!!!

have you tried swearing.. or calling someone a nice person.... I used the M word...see what I mean?..

that fd is not FREEDOM OF SPEECH....

and as for Holocaust denial....how do you legislate against the way people think?....

we are chatting away on here...if we all denied history... what can anyone do about it?????....tell them to stop thinking.. OK>.

I agree about the French of course....i wonder what would happen if CHarlie now turns his sights to Denying the Holocaust?? in cartoon mode...

how do you think that would go down?????

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by freediver on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 10:42am

Quote:

that fd is not FREEDOM OF SPEECH....

Cods, are you actively campaigning against freedom of speech? Do you actually think it means you can compel me to publish anything you want? You either have no clue what it is, or are looking for any mindless propaganda you can find to undermine it.

Quote:

we are chatting away on here...if we all denied history... what can anyone do about it?????

They have recently put Australians in jail because of this. That's what they can do.

Quote:

I agree about the French of course....i wonder what would happen if CHarlie now turns his sights to Denying the Holocaust?? in cartoon mode...

They do not just target Muslims. They have a go at everything.

What do you agree with?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Rocketanski on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 11:20am

Gandalf's caught between a Jew and a Muslim place.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by cods on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 12:30pm

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 10:42am:

Quote:

that fd is not FREEDOM OF SPEECH....

They have recently put Australians in jail because of this. That's what they can do.

Quote:

I agree about the French of course....i wonder what would happen if CHarlie now turns his sights to Denying the Holocaust?? in cartoon mode...

They do not just target Muslims. They have a go at everything.

this BLOODY THREAD IS ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST that is what I was referring too..
What do you agree with?
[/quote]

oh fd you are just like the others very selective.. go away...I cant be bothered with you... you now want to change what FREEDOM OF SPEECH actually means...

where am I CAMPAIGNING NOW AGAINST FREEDOM OF SPEECH>>

EXPLAIN TO ME WHY AN EXTREMIST CANNOT GET UPSET ABOUT A CARTOON..

YET YOU CAN GET UPSET ABOUT THE M WORD.. MORON...AND HAVE IT DELETED ON THIS FORUM...

WHY HAS ONE [PRESUMED]INSULT NOT THE SAME AS ANOTHER [PRESUMED] INSULT..

DIFFERENCE BEING OF COURSE YOU ARE IN CONTROL...DOESNT MAKE YOU RIGHT.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by cods on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 12:32pm

Rocketanski wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 11:20am:

Gandalf's caught between a Jew and a Muslim place.

MORE LIKE FD CAUGHT BETWEEN A CARTOON AND THE m WORD MORON..

WHEN YOU TYPE M^RON YOU GET NICE PERSON COME UP...... BUT ITS OK TO INSULT ANGRY MUSLIMS.

DONT UPSET FD WILL YOU.. ;) ;)MORON.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by The Stunt-free Horse on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 12:33pm

cods wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 12:30pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 10:42am:

Quote:

that fd is not FREEDOM OF SPEECH....

They have recently put Australians in jail because of this. That's what they can do.

[quote]I agree about the French of course....i wonder what would happen if CHarlie now turns his sights to Denying the Holocaust?? in cartoon mode...

They do not just target Muslims. They have a go at everything.

this BLOODY THREAD IS ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST that is what I was referring too..
What do you agree with?
[/quote]

oh fd you are just like the others very selective.. go away...I cant be bothered with you... you now want to change what FREEDOM OF SPEECH actually means...

where am I CAMPAIGNING NOW AGAINST FREEDOM OF SPEECH>>

EXPLAIN TO ME WHY AN EXTREMIST CANNOT GET UPSET ABOUT A CARTOON..

YET YOU CAN GET UPSET ABOUT THE M WORD.. nice person...AND HAVE IT DELETED ON THIS FORUM...

WHY HAS ONE [PRESUMED]INSULT NOT THE SAME AS ANOTHER [PRESUMED] INSULT..

DIFFERENCE BEING OF COURSE YOU ARE IN CONTROL...DOESNT MAKE YOU RIGHT.[/quote]
Are you drinking metho mate?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by freediver on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 12:41pm

Cods how far would you go to appease terrorists?

Quote:

oh fd you are just like the others very selective

How so? You make lots of vague accusations, but they all come to nothing.

Quote:

go away

How about this? You stop posting stupid crap, and I stop pointing out how stupid your posts are.

Quote:

you now want to change what FREEDOM OF SPEECH actually means...

Give us your version of what it means Cods. Appeasing terrorists?

Quote:

EXPLAIN TO ME WHY AN EXTREMIST CANNOT GET UPSET ABOUT A CARTOON..

I just explained that they can. Do keep up Cods.

Quote:

YET YOU CAN GET UPSET ABOUT THE M WORD.. nice person...AND HAVE IT DELETED ON THIS FORUM...

Still whining about the swear word censor? Do you need me to explain it again?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Resolute on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 12:57pm

I assume "Cods" is no spring chicken, yet for somebody obviously over retirement age she sure is naive.

Support the criminal blacks in the US who would kill police officers as they protect society, and now support murdering terrorists because they feel aggrieved by a satirical magazine which publishes satirical cartoons, and slaughter people because they're pizzd off at what is published.

When are you going to wake up (your words Cods) Cods.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gandalf on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:09pm

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 10:29am:

Do you support censorship of holocaust denial Gandalf?

No, the idea is absurd and breathtakingly hypocritical from governments who rant and rave about freedom of speech - as we are seeing in France right now.

I have come around on the holocaust denial issue. I used to be somewhat circumspect given the very real link between anti-semitism and holocaust denial. However we are talking about an opinion on history. It is a thought crime - plain and simple. What we are talking about is an acadamic calmly presenting an intellectual argument that rejects or even questions the historical evidence of the holocaust - being punished by the state. It is outrageous.

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 10:29am:

Not entirely

I'd be really interested if you elaborated on that FD. On the surface this seems an extraordinary thing to say for someone like you to say this. You've previously said you support people having the right to do things like vilify muslims through racial caricatures and march down the street demanding people be beheaded for insulting islam - now you are saying its a bit more 'complicated' when it comes to holding an opinion on history??

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gizmo_2655 on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:14pm

cods wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 10:37am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:19am:

Hypocrisy within hypocrisy: not only are holocaust denial laws an attack on free speech, but in the law itself, one type of genocide denial is allowed while another is not.

You don't....the various countries ban on Holocaust denial is about publicly announcing it, either in print or spoken form, same as the laws against denigrating or defaming ANY group in the same way.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by The Stunt-free Horse on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:16pm

Resolute wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 12:57pm:

why is cods obviously over retirement age?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gandalf on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:19pm

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 11:05am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:19am:

Hypocrisy within hypocrisy: not only are holocaust denial laws an attack on free speech, but in the law itself, one type of genocide denial is allowed while another is not.

Criticising a non - existent God is different to denying the murder
of 6 million Jews & 6 million other people for
which the evidence is over whelming.

There is no elephant in the room.

So just to be clear Bobby, limits to freedom of speech is contingent upon how overwhelming the evidence is on the particular topic in question?

Presumably you would support gaoling/fining people for claiming the earth is flat or that man-made global warming doesn't exist?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by freediver on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:22pm

Quote:

I have come around on the holocaust denial issue.

Good for you.

Quote:

People can be motivated by racism to mock Muhammed or deny the holcaust. It can be an expression of their racism. It should be a legally protected expression. The expression is not in itself racist.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by The Stunt-free Horse on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:24pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:09pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 10:29am:

Do you support censorship of holocaust denial Gandalf?

Not entirely

'Free-trade' for instance: words allowed to combine that we all know mean nothing! Not even so called right wing economists acknowledge a hint of truth in the wording of the idea!

FIRE in a crowded room,... surely common sense is required at some point...

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by freediver on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:27pm

Free trade means something to me. Just because you do not understand it does not mean everyone else is clueless.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gandalf on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:28pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 10:35am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 4:30am:

freediver wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 9:18am:

Gandalf do you support the Australian laws that outlaw holocaust denial?

The idea that rejecting the historical evidence of a particular event in history amounts to racial discrimination is absurd - don't you think?

Are you in the holocaust denier camp Gandalf or do you think it happened?

Of course it happened Baron - I am a student of history, I have studied the evidence and know that it happened. People who deny this are ignorant or anti-semitic or both. But thats not the point. Our own Attorney General proclaimed that 'people have the right to be bigots' - in almost the same breath that he proudly reassured the Australian public that holocaust denial would remain unlawful under the Racial Discrimination Act. The hypocricy should take any sane person's breath away - even yours Baron.

I understand the intrinsic link between holocaust denial and virulent anti-semitism - but this is not the solution. The best ammunition we can give to anti-semites in our society is to give them a martyr complex - and gaoling and/or otherwise punishing them for a thought-crime is the perfect way to do it.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by The Stunt-free Horse on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:30pm

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:27pm:

Free trade means something to me. Just because you do not understand it does not mean everyone else is clueless.

You're talking about the concept: i'm talking about the words ;) ;)

Clueless,... lol :)

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gizmo_2655 on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:31pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 11:05am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:19am:

Hypocrisy within hypocrisy: not only are holocaust denial laws an attack on free speech, but in the law itself, one type of genocide denial is allowed while another is not.

Criticising a non - existent God is different to denying the murder
of 6 million Jews & 6 million other people for
which the evidence is over whelming.

There is no elephant in the room.

The limit on ANY speech should be veracity...based on evidence.
And 'man-made global warming' is still under discussion/dispute.

In this case, claiming that Jews 'made up' the Holocaust for personal ( Jewish) gain is clearly NOT true.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by The Stunt-free Horse on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:33pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:31pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 11:05am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:19am:

Hypocrisy within hypocrisy: not only are holocaust denial laws an attack on free speech, but in the law itself, one type of genocide denial is allowed while another is not.

Criticising a non - existent God is different to denying the murder
of 6 million Jews & 6 million other people for
which the evidence is over whelming.

There is no elephant in the room.

lol, and copper internet is good yehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh i vote liberal and know stuff ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by freediver on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:44pm

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:30pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:27pm:

Free trade means something to me. Just because you do not understand it does not mean everyone else is clueless.

You're talking about the concept: i'm talking about the words ;) ;)

Clueless,... lol :)

So the concept has meaning, but the words used to refer to the concept don't?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by The Stunt-free Horse on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:53pm

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:44pm:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:30pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:27pm:

Free trade means something to me. Just because you do not understand it does not mean everyone else is clueless.

You're talking about the concept: i'm talking about the words ;) ;)

Clueless,... lol :)

So the concept has meaning, but the words used to refer to the concept don't?

Um, well: are you saying lies are useful are you?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gandalf on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:53pm

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:22pm:

Quote:

I have come around on the holocaust denial issue.

Good for you.

[quote]I'd be really interested if you elaborated on that FD. On the surface this seems an extraordinary thing to say for someone like you to say this. You've previously said you support people having the right to do things like vilify muslims through racial caricatures and march down the street demanding people be beheaded for insulting islam - now you are saying its a bit more 'complicated' when it comes to holding an opinion on history??

People can be motivated by racism to mock Muhammed or deny the holcaust. It can be an expression of their racism. It should be a legally protected expression. The expression is not in itself racist.[/quote]

Protecting racial expression shouldn't extend to protecting incitement to violence - agreed?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by freediver on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:55pm

Sort of. That can be interpreted very broadly. I would not censor sprint's posts, for example. It depends on whether it could be reasonably expected that actual violence would result.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by cods on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 2:33pm

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:55pm:

Sort of. That can be interpreted very broadly. I would not censor sprint's posts, for example. It depends on whether it could be reasonably expected that actual violence would result.

so you admit you CAN censor therefor bang goes Sprints FREEDOM OF SPEECH.....because its up to FD if it acceptable. ::) ::)

yet you claim we all have it and its worth killing for to keep it... ::) ::)

funny that!

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by The Stunt-free Horse on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 2:36pm

cods wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 2:33pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:55pm:

Sort of. That can be interpreted very broadly. I would not censor sprint's posts, for example. It depends on whether it could be reasonably expected that actual violence would result.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gandalf on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 3:23pm

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:55pm:

Sort of. That can be interpreted very broadly. I would not censor sprint's posts, for example. It depends on whether it could be reasonably expected that actual violence would result.

Yes, it depends on context of time and place - as I've been saying all along. To take an extreme example, disseminating racial caricatures of scheming jews in Nazi Germany would be rather inciteful wouldn't it?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gandalf on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 3:28pm

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:55pm:

I would not censor sprint's posts

How does Sprint's comments to (for example) indiscriminately raze mosques to the ground stand up against Australian hate laws? I'm genuinely curious. I frequent another forum - based in the UK - who censors any holocaust denial because it violates several European laws.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gizmo_2655 on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 4:39pm

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:33pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:31pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 11:05am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:19am:

Hypocrisy within hypocrisy: not only are holocaust denial laws an attack on free speech, but in the law itself, one type of genocide denial is allowed while another is not.

Criticising a non - existent God is different to denying the murder
of 6 million Jews & 6 million other people for
which the evidence is over whelming.

There is no elephant in the room.

lol, and copper internet is good yehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh i vote liberal and know stuff ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D

And that idea is simply because YOU are drug buggered looney...

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by ImSpartacus2 on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:26pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:31pm:

wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 11:05am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:19am:

Hypocrisy within hypocrisy: not only are holocaust denial laws an attack on free speech, but in the law itself, one type of genocide denial is allowed while another is not.

Criticising a non - existent God is different to denying the murder
of 6 million Jews & 6 million other people for
which the evidence is over whelming.

There is no elephant in the room.

So let's see gizmo. You're saying we should put limits on what a person can say based on what someone decides is proved by the evidence. Absurd!!! Clearly you're so desperate to justify the double standard of allowing anti Muslim hate speech and bannining anti Jewish hate speech that you come up with this rediculous justification. Global warming you say is still up for discussion. And yet the UN says its beyond doubt. Does that mean you should be put in prison for denying man made GW. And where does that put people with new ideas. Just ignorant!!!! You're absurd double standards are half the reason were in this mess with so called terrorists.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gizmo_2655 on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:44pm

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:26pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:31pm:

wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 11:05am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:19am:

Hypocrisy within hypocrisy: not only are holocaust denial laws an attack on free speech, but in the law itself, one type of genocide denial is allowed while another is not.

Criticising a non - existent God is different to denying the murder
of 6 million Jews & 6 million other people for
which the evidence is over whelming.

There is no elephant in the room.

Umm No Global Warming is STILL 'disputed' by scientists who ARE actually AS 'qualified' as the scientists who support it...which makes AGW a 'NEUTRAL' concept, at the moment...so, NO the UN (a political organisation) is WRONG on AGW.

And banning anti-Jewish 'hate speech' (like Holocaust denial, which IS incorrect) is very different to banning Islamic extremist 'hate speech' which IS true, based on the Charlie Hedbo attack, and the the Lindt chocolate attack and any number of OTHER incidents...

Sorry, but Muslim extremists DO , in fact, commit verifiable attacks on Western society, on a regular basis...whereas there is zero proof that the Holocaust idea is anything other than true..

I know you might 'hate' Jews, or Israelis... but actual reality shows that Muslim cause far more deaths and damage than the Jews do.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Lady Ignora on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:46pm

Excellent points made by gandalf on a general (yet specific) level and the poster cods has successfully managed to drill down to relevance on very immediate local censorship. Let's stifle anything which might offend Jews, but encourage anything which will offend Muslims.

:D

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gizmo_2655 on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:59pm

Lady Ignora wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:46pm:

No, not really...exactly HOW many terrorist attacks have the Israelis, or the Jews, carried out in the last 20 years??? Oh and DON"T bother mentioning Gaza..

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by ImSpartacus2 on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 6:00pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:44pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:26pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:31pm:

wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 11:05am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:19am:

Hypocrisy within hypocrisy: not only are holocaust denial laws an attack on free speech, but in the law itself, one type of genocide denial is allowed while another is not.

Criticising a non - existent God is different to denying the murder
of 6 million Jews & 6 million other people for
which the evidence is over whelming.

There is no elephant in the room.

The fact that were having this argument about what is proved, demonstrates the absurdity of your position. Who decides that something is sufficiently proved that it cannot be denied. Your assertions about global warming are absurd to me and if anyone should go to prison for disseminatin lies it should be GW deniers. Again I say its clear that you're so desperate to impose your double standards for justifying Muslim hate speech that you come up with this rediculous justification. Selective free speech is basically what you are on about. People are free to say what you approve of and not free to say what you disapprove of. No thanks ! You keep your totalitarian state to yourself. I want real democracy thanks very much!

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by ImSpartacus2 on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 6:06pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:59pm:

Lady Ignora wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:46pm:

No, not really...exactly HOW many terrorist attacks have the Israelis, or the Jews, carried out in the last 20 years??? Oh and DON"T bother mentioning Gaza..

Gaza Gaza Gaza Gaza, and that's just the tip of the iceburg. Your double standards are the main reason were in this mess destined to be subject to terrorist attacks for decades to come and escalating!

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Aussie on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 6:08pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:59pm:

Lady Ignora wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:46pm:

No, not really...exactly HOW many terrorist attacks have the Israelis, or the Jews, carried out in the last 20 years??? Oh and DON"T bother mentioning Gaza..

That newbie seems to have gone, so I'll respond.

Sheeeeeet!!!!!

How would anyone know unless they have been caught red handed, like in New Zealand sinking a ship and murdering some people on board.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gizmo_2655 on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 6:18pm

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 6:06pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:59pm:

Lady Ignora wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:46pm:

No, not really...exactly HOW many terrorist attacks have the Israelis, or the Jews, carried out in the last 20 years??? Oh and DON"T bother mentioning Gaza..

Ok cool, so you want to mention the Gaza thing, where the Arab\Islamic 'terrorists' keep on attacking a 'sovereign' country, and STILL claim to be the victims???

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gizmo_2655 on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 6:21pm

Aussie wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 6:08pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:59pm:

Lady Ignora wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:46pm:

No, not really...exactly HOW many terrorist attacks have the Israelis, or the Jews, carried out in the last 20 years??? Oh and DON"T bother mentioning Gaza..

That newbie seems to have gone, so I'll respond.

Sheeeeeet!!!!!

How would anyone know unless they have been caught red handed, like in New Zealand sinking a ship and murdering some people on board.

Well, sorry, YOUR response doesn't actually require a "SHEEEET'..it really just provides a 'I'm a dick'...

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Aussie on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 7:03pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 6:21pm:

Aussie wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 6:08pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:59pm:

Lady Ignora wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:46pm:

No, not really...exactly HOW many terrorist attacks have the Israelis, or the Jews, carried out in the last 20 years??? Oh and DON"T bother mentioning Gaza..

That newbie seems to have gone, so I'll respond.

Sheeeeeet!!!!!

How would anyone know unless they have been caught red handed, like in New Zealand sinking a ship and murdering some people on board.

Well, sorry, YOUR response doesn't actually require a "SHEEEET'..it really just provides a 'I'm a dick'...

You've never heard of the Rainbow Warrior sunk in an act of terrorism by Israeli Agents?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gizmo_2655 on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 8:14pm

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 12:33pm:

cods wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 12:30pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 10:42am:

Quote:

that fd is not FREEDOM OF SPEECH....

They do not just target Muslims. They have a go at everything.

this BLOODY THREAD IS ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST that is what I was referring too..
What do you agree with?

oh fd you are just like the others very selective.. go away...I cant be bothered with you... you now want to change what FREEDOM OF SPEECH actually means...

where am I CAMPAIGNING NOW AGAINST FREEDOM OF SPEECH>>

EXPLAIN TO ME WHY AN EXTREMIST CANNOT GET UPSET ABOUT A CARTOON..

YET YOU CAN GET UPSET ABOUT THE M WORD.. nice person...AND HAVE IT DELETED ON THIS FORUM...

WHY HAS ONE [PRESUMED]INSULT NOT THE SAME AS ANOTHER [PRESUMED] INSULT..

DIFFERENCE BEING OF COURSE YOU ARE IN CONTROL...DOESNT MAKE YOU RIGHT.[/quote]

Are you drinking metho mate?[/quote]

No, are YOU???

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Rocketanski on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 8:15pm

I'm for offending Muslims and Jews.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gizmo_2655 on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 8:16pm

Aussie wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 7:03pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 6:21pm:

Aussie wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 6:08pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:59pm:

Lady Ignora wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:46pm:

No, not really...exactly HOW many terrorist attacks have the Israelis, or the Jews, carried out in the last 20 years??? Oh and DON"T bother mentioning Gaza..

That newbie seems to have gone, so I'll respond.

Sheeeeeet!!!!!

How would anyone know unless they have been caught red handed, like in New Zealand sinking a ship and murdering some people on board.

Well, sorry, YOUR response doesn't actually require a "SHEEEET'..it really just provides a 'I'm a dick'...

You've never heard of the Rainbow Warrior sunk in an act of terrorism by Israeli Agents?

I've heard of the Rainbow Warrior..being sunk by French Agents, in an 'act of terrorism'...However the Israeli's had NOTHING to do with it...

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by greggerypeccary on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 8:16pm

Rocketanski wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 8:15pm:

I'm for offending Muslims and Jews.

You offend everyone that crosses your path.

Why do you think that Muslims and Jews would be exempt?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Aussie on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 8:21pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 8:16pm:

Aussie wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 7:03pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 6:21pm:

Aussie wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 6:08pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:59pm:

Lady Ignora wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:46pm:

No, not really...exactly HOW many terrorist attacks have the Israelis, or the Jews, carried out in the last 20 years??? Oh and DON"T bother mentioning Gaza..

That newbie seems to have gone, so I'll respond.

Sheeeeeet!!!!!

How would anyone know unless they have been caught red handed, like in New Zealand sinking a ship and murdering some people on board.

Well, sorry, YOUR response doesn't actually require a "SHEEEET'..it really just provides a 'I'm a dick'...

You've never heard of the Rainbow Warrior sunk in an act of terrorism by Israeli Agents?

I've heard of the Rainbow Warrior..being sunk by French Agents, in an 'act of terrorism'...However the Israeli's had NOTHING to do with it...

Sheeeeeet. Brain fart. You are correct.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by cods on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 9:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 3:28pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:55pm:

I would not censor sprint's posts

fd is a law unto himself....you cannot call someone a M^ron on his forum but its ok to call them a coward...

he is selective who is at the receiving end as well..

so I would say razing a Mosque to the ground is quite acceptable on ozpol gangalf...just dont reply saying its a m^ronic thing to want to do..

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by cods on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 9:45pm

Resolute wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 12:57pm:

why the name change????.. I dont like dealing with someone I dont kn ow.. seems crafty to me.. you are obviously someone who thinks he knows everything. about everyone...

may I suggest unless you have something to offer a topic.. you take your unwelcome abuse and shove it...

when I want your opinion I will direct something your way...

in the mean time only a coward would hide behind a new nic..

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gizmo_2655 on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 11:11pm

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 6:00pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:44pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:26pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:31pm:

wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 11:05am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:19am:

Hypocrisy within hypocrisy: not only are holocaust denial laws an attack on free speech, but in the law itself, one type of genocide denial is allowed while another is not.

Criticising a non - existent God is different to denying the murder
of 6 million Jews & 6 million other people for
which the evidence is over whelming.

There is no elephant in the room.

The fact that were having this argument about what is proved, demonstrates the absurdity of your position. Who decides that something is sufficiently proved that it cannot be denied.

Umm 'reality' proves it. It is a FACT that the Holocaust happened...AND it IS a fact that some climate scientists disagree with the idea that mankind is mostly responsible for climate change...

I get that you're a Green, so you think that anything to do with the Jews is a lie...however, there really is enough evidence (from the Nazis and from the assorted Allied sources) to prove, beyond doubt that the Holocaust is NOT a fabrication, designed to make people feel sorry for the Jewish people..

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by The Stunt-free Horse on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 2:26am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 8:14pm:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 12:33pm:

cods wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 12:30pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 10:42am:

Quote:

that fd is not FREEDOM OF SPEECH....

They do not just target Muslims. They have a go at everything.

this BLOODY THREAD IS ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST that is what I was referring too..
What do you agree with?

Are you drinking metho mate?[/quote]

No, are YOU???
[/quote]
r u cods?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by The Stunt-free Horse on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 2:30am

Lady Ignora wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:46pm:

Let's all go back to 1950s management theory ;D ;D

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by The Stunt-free Horse on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 2:31am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:44pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:26pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:31pm:

wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 11:05am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:19am:

Hypocrisy within hypocrisy: not only are holocaust denial laws an attack on free speech, but in the law itself, one type of genocide denial is allowed while another is not.

Criticising a non - existent God is different to denying the murder
of 6 million Jews & 6 million other people for
which the evidence is over whelming.

There is no elephant in the room.

::) ::)

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by The Stunt-free Horse on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 2:34am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 4:39pm:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:33pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:31pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 11:05am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:19am:

Hypocrisy within hypocrisy: not only are holocaust denial laws an attack on free speech, but in the law itself, one type of genocide denial is allowed while another is not.

Criticising a non - existent God is different to denying the murder
of 6 million Jews & 6 million other people for
which the evidence is over whelming.

There is no elephant in the room.

lol, and copper internet is good yehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh i vote liberal and know stuff ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D

And that idea is simply because YOU are drug buggered looney...

Gizmo dislikes being shown up as a hypocrite :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 3:54am

Denying the holocaust is very different. It absolutely should be against the law.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by cods on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 7:30am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 3:54am:

Denying the holocaust is very different. It absolutely should be against the law.

that makes me laugh...

denying something is only words isnt it??>..

I dont know what proof these deniers have ... so it really all comes down to words....

thats like calling you a paedo without any proof just saying it....

making a law about it.. doesnt stop someone sayin g it or thinking it...

its stupid to take any notice of them.....

its not as if they are threatening to kill anyone for saying the Holocaust did happen.....

is it?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Rocketanski on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 8:17am

Investigation in the Holocaust has been staunchly suppressed by bodies such as the Holocaust Claims Commission which has an agenda to make the details appear as grim as possible. The Jewish run Auschwitz museum adjusted it's figures on deaths from 4 million to 1.5 million under the weight of irresistible evidence. This is not an isolated case. Aerial photographs taken by the US airforce, Red Cross testimony, official German documents, examination of gravesites, examination of gas chambers and evidence of Holocaust survivors themselves all cast doubts on some of the 'facts' of the Jewish tragedy. I don't see how taking a dry eyed approach to history can be a crime.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by cods on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 9:08am

Rocketanski wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 8:17am:

I have to admit to never seeing any of what you describe..not saying it isnt true.. I was neither there nor know anyone first hand who was..

but to me.. to even mention the discrepancy between 4 million and 1.5 million.. is kind of saying..

well 1.,5.mlllion aint that bad.. ::) ::) I beg to differ..

why would the armed forces LIE ?.. what was it to them to lie about what they saw...???

look at the killing fields...Cambodia.. where they say 3 million were killed by Pol Pot..

then we have Rwanda..Genocide.

then we have had Bosnia where thousands more were buried in trenches..

so we are told... none of us were there... we have no reason to believe that people lie about these things...

the holocaust was unspeakable...it was humans at their worst...who died or how many... is really beside the point..this was HUMANS doing unspeakable things to other Humans...no one can deny that.

and still we do it..just the forms change...I admit no gas chambers.....so that mean we must have improved... >:( >:( >:( >:(

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by freediver on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 9:44am

Quote:

so you admit you CAN censor therefor bang goes Sprints FREEDOM OF SPEECH.....because its up to FD if it acceptable.

I have explained this to you before cods. Not sure why you have such trouble understanding such a basic concept. Would a picture help?

Quote:

How does Sprint's comments to (for example) indiscriminately raze mosques to the ground stand up against Australian hate laws? I'm genuinely curious.

Nobody knows. You'd have to take him to court to find out, and you'd get and answer in 5 or 10 years.

Quote:

Sorry, but Muslim extremists DO , in fact, commit verifiable attacks on Western society, on a regular basis...whereas there is zero proof that the Holocaust idea is anything other than true..

Gizmo, are you saying that the government should dictate what we are allowed to say based on what is officially accepted as true?

Quote:

I know you might 'hate' Jews, or Israelis... but actual reality shows that Muslim cause far more deaths and damage than the Jews do.

This isn't a competition gizmo.

Quote:

but to me.. to even mention the discrepancy between 4 million and 1.5 million.. is kind of saying..
well 1.,5.mlllion aint that bad.. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes I beg to differ..

Some people have principles cods. The truth matters.

Quote:

who died or how many... is really beside the point..

Since when is the truth about the holocaust irrelevant?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by ImSpartacus2 on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 11:47am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 11:11pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 6:00pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:44pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:26pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:31pm:

wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 11:05am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:19am:

Hypocrisy within hypocrisy: not only are holocaust denial laws an attack on free speech, but in the law itself, one type of genocide denial is allowed while another is not.

Criticising a non - existent God is different to denying the murder
of 6 million Jews & 6 million other people for
which the evidence is over whelming.

There is no elephant in the room.

The fact that were having this argument about what is proved, demonstrates the absurdity of your position. Who decides that something is sufficiently proved that it cannot be denied.

The holocaust is not proved beyond doubt, nor is the theory of evolution, the theory of relativity or man caused climate change and to make it criminal for people to offer more (and often new) evidence and/or new perspective to the debate is not only stupid, its amongst the most extreme forms of oppression; as bad as anything we would label as facist or totalitarian. Its what the church did when it tried to silence Galileo from challenging the official version of "the facts" about the solar system (just 1 in many examples) And in the case of the holocaust, its extremely racist. No race should ever be elevated above the rest so that their account of "the facts" can never be questioned for all time, esp were something as easily and regularly manipulated as "history" is concerned. I repeat, your blatantly hypocritical double standards is much of the reason why young men are becoming radicalized and fighting back.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Rocketanski on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 12:34pm

I don't even think reasoned investigation has to be about accepting or refuting an entire argument; it can merely involve questioning a falsehood here, an exaggeration there. I'm nether a Holocaust 'denier' nor a climate 'denier'.
At the same time I just can't overlook the many inconsistencies with both narratives.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by ImSpartacus2 on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 1:27pm

Rocketanski wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 12:34pm:

Well according to gizmo you have a free speech right to challenge the views of the overwhelming majority of climate experts, even though the UN and over 97% of the experts say man caused climate change is undeniable but you have no such right to free speech and should be put in prison if you question the consenses of historians that "the holocaust" occured, notwithstanding that there are some historians that don't believe that a holocaust occurred. Why the different approaches. Well it seems because gizmo doesn't happen to believe in climate change but does happen to believe in the holocaust.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gandalf on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 1:31pm

Rocketanski wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 8:17am:

Just think, if Andrei had his way, the state would punish you for saying this. If you said this in Germany or France - as well as several other European countries, you really would be punished for saying this. Sobering thought huh?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by cods on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 3:12pm

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 9:44am:

Some people have principles cods. The truth matters.

whos truth??/ you claim the cartoon s were not offensive ...did nt youj fall about laughing at them... but the Muslim extremist didnt find the amusing..

so whos truth are you referring too?>.. your own as usual?

as for principles....like its ok to abuse an extremist but no one can call fd a M0ron... again whos priciples are we talking about?..
freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 9:44am:

who died or how many... is really beside the point..

Since when is the truth about the holocaust irrelevant

what truth again.. 4 mil.. or 1.5.mill..??????

seems to me you have the problem with truth..

the reference I was making was

mankinds inhumanity was worse than any counting... whether it was 1000 or 100 million...

it should never ever have happened...

and what has happened since... tells me we have learnt bugger all..

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by freediver on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 5:28pm

Quote:

whos truth??/ you claim the cartoon s were not offensive .

Earth to cods - we are talking about holocaust denial here. The truth comes about through analysis of the evidence, not from the government telling people what the answer is.

Quote:

as for principles....like its ok to abuse an extremist but no one can call fd a M0ron...

Earth to cods - you are free to do this, just not to compel me to publish your tripe. If there is anything I can do to help you understand this simple point, please let me know.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Aussie on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 5:31pm

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 5:28pm:

Quote:

whos truth??/ you claim the cartoon s were not offensive .

Earth to cods - we are talking about holocaust denial here. The truth comes about through analysis of the evidence, not from the government telling people what the answer is.

[quote]as for principles....like its ok to abuse an extremist but no one can call fd a M0ron...

Earth to cods - you are free to do this, just not to compel me to publish your tripe. If there is anything I can do to help you understand this simple point, please let me know.

[/quote]

No, we are talking about people's differing versions of 'truth.' You have concluded cod's version is 'tripe,' so you seek to do what with it, freediver?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by freediver on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 5:37pm

Aussie wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 5:31pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 5:28pm:

Quote:

whos truth??/ you claim the cartoon s were not offensive .

Earth to cods - you are free to do this, just not to compel me to publish your tripe. If there is anything I can do to help you understand this simple point, please let me know.

No, we are talking about people's differing versions of 'truth.' You have concluded cod's version is 'tripe,' so you seek to do what with it, freediver?
[/quote]

I seek to make everyone aware of how hollow and self-defeating it is.

That is why cods is afraid to explain how far she would go to appease terrorists, and how she thinks they would respond to her suggested strategy of appeasement.

My disagreement with cods is not about truth or fact. It is normative, not positive. We are not disputing any facts at all.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Aussie on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 5:46pm

Quote:

I seek to make everyone aware of how hollow and self-defeating it is.

And you are doing that by raising some blazingly obvious point that cods cannot compel you to publish her version of truth?

WTF is 'normative?' Some quaint word, or what?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by freediver on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 5:56pm

I am trying to point out that what cods thinks is hypocrisy is a consistent set of standards. Executing a dozen people over a cartoon, and putting a swear word filter on the forum, is not in fact the same thing, as cods has suggested.

Cods and I do not disagree on the facts of any issue. We disagree on what *should* be done. That is a normative, as opposed to a positive issue. Cods wants to appease terrorists. I want to support freedom of speech. Of course, the consequences of these actions is an objective question, but so far cods will not be drawn into a discussion on the likely consequences of following her strategy of spineless appeasement. If there is one thing the terrorists respect and fear, it is people who bend over for them.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by cods on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 5:58pm

Aussie wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 5:46pm:

Quote:

I seek to make everyone aware of how hollow and self-defeating it is.

And you are doing that by raising some blazingly obvious point that cods cannot compel you to publish her version of truth?

WTF is 'normative?' Some quaint word, or what?

normative.. means it FD .. Fred Dick's version of FREE DUMB OF SPEECH..... he says nothing about the hypocrisy of his own forums RULES....we cant say the F. word or the M.word or the S. word..

but we can print insulting cartoons..tell fred he is wasting his time talking to cods.. shes given up...this is like talking to gweg... nay its worse.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by cods on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 6:00pm

see what I mean... he is now defining what FEEDOM OF SPEECH means...... to suit himself...

wot if my version of FREEDOM OF SPEECH is different to yours..yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Aussie on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 6:03pm

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 5:56pm:

Why would anyone bother with you. You have already made it very clear in the OP to a new Thread that it would be 'stupid' of anyone to take any notice.

In a microscopic way, cods has nailed you. There is either freedom of speech or there is not. You want Charlie Hebdo to have what you regard as freedom of speech, but you want to deny cods what she regards as her freedom of speech. You have a very effective means of controlling cods and to directly impact on what she claims as her freedom.....because you have the censor buttons.

Can you not see how amazingly hypocritical that is?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by cods on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 6:25pm

Aussie wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 6:03pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 5:56pm:

Why would anyone bother with you. You have already made it very clear in the OP to a new Thread that it would be 'stupid' of anyone to take any notice.

In a microscopic way, cods has nailed you. There is either freedom of speech or there is not. You want Charlie Hebdo to have what you regard as freedom of speech, but you want to deny cods what she regards as her freedom of speech. You have a very effective means of controlling cods and to directly impact on what she claims as her freedom.....because you have the censor buttons.

;DCan you not see how amazingly hypocritical that is?

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I have called him out about 4 times.. thanks aussie..

he is very good at twisting everything back to who ever he disagrees with...

and now language and cartoons.. even though language was involved are not the same thing when it comes to FREEDOM OF SPEECH

according to fd..

so when we fight the extremists when they get here..

it will be with fd s rules only ...LOLOLOLOL>.

I am sure the extremists will be amused..and will definitely play fair.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by freediver on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 6:54pm

Quote:

tell fred he is wasting his time talking to cods.. shes given up

Cods spits the dummy yet again. Now watch her come back in five minutes and post the same idiocy.

Quote:

wot if my version of FREEDOM OF SPEECH is different to yours..yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I have asked you, several times, to provide your own version, because you do seem to have a different meaning cods. You choose to wunaway.

Quote:

In a microscopic way, cods has nailed you. There is either freedom of speech or there is not. You want Charlie Hebdo to have what you regard as freedom of speech, but you want to deny cods what she regards as her freedom of speech.

How could I, if cods cannot even say what her version is? Do you know what it is? I don;t think even cods does.

Quote:

You have a very effective means of controlling cods and to directly impact on what she claims as her freedom.....because you have the censor buttons.

I can only control cods to the extent she chooses to let me. No-one is forcing her to use this forum.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by wally1 on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 7:22pm

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Aussie on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 7:37pm

Oh, welcome back freediver. We've missed you.

Quote:

I can only control cods to the extent she chooses to let me. No-one is forcing her to use this forum.

You 'can only control'.....................meaning you can absolutely control what any one says here, and if they don't like your version of freedom of speech.....there's the door.

Like I said, you are the epitome of hypocrisy on the issue.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by freediver on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 7:44pm

Quote:

You 'can only control'.....................meaning you can absolutely control what any one says here, and if they don't like your version of freedom of speech.....there's the door.

Is this your 'alternative' version of freedom Aussie? Or some intolerable burden?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Aussie on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 8:10pm

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 7:44pm:

Quote:

You 'can only control'.....................meaning you can absolutely control what any one says here, and if they don't like your version of freedom of speech.....there's the door.

Is this your 'alternative' version of freedom Aussie? Or some intolerable burden?

Oh....welcome back, freediver! We've missed you.

I have not mentioned either concept. What I have said is that while you crow about the right of Charlie Hebdo to say what they please, (cause they can in their own rag) and at the same time you deny people here the right to say what they please (cause you can in your website.) If they don't like the way you limit and censor their freedom of speech.....there is the door!

The amazing part is that you are totally blind to how neither attitude represents freedom of speech. It is the epitome of hypocrisy.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Setanta on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 9:09pm

Am I an existentialist? Je suis, oui!

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by freediver on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 9:45pm

Aussie wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 8:10pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 7:44pm:

Quote:

You 'can only control'.....................meaning you can absolutely control what any one says here, and if they don't like your version of freedom of speech.....there's the door.

Is this your 'alternative' version of freedom Aussie? Or some intolerable burden?

No Aussie, that is freedom. We can both say what we want, and neither can compel anything of the other. What is your problem with it?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Sheikh adamant on Jan 19^th, 2015 at 6:31pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 3:28pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:55pm:

I would not censor sprint's posts

So wand elf, is this persons rants ok with your principals of "hate laws"? I am also VERY genuinely curious.

"Sheikh Sharif Hussein following ‘kill all Hindus and Buddhists’ "

If you, and your mozzie friends don't agree with this violent import, why don't you tell "our" Government to get rid of the piece of human excreta?

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/australian-police-investigate-adelaide-sheikh-sharif-hussein-following-kill-all-hindus-and-buddhists-hate-rant/

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by Sheikh adamant on Jan 19^th, 2015 at 7:06pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 4:30am:

freediver wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 9:18am:

Gandalf do you support the Australian laws that outlaw holocaust denial?

The idea that rejecting the historical evidence of a particular event in history amounts to racial discrimination is absurd - don't you think?

So you would agree with historians that muslims killed 80 million Hindu's and about 3 million Armenians.

Good to see at least one muslim has decided to own up for islams disgusting past!

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by The Grappler Hebdo (je suis) on Jan 19^th, 2015 at 9:59pm

.. not to mention millions of Muslims and Jews......

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gandalf on Jan 22^nd, 2015 at 3:50am

Adamant wrote on Jan 19^th, 2015 at 6:31pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 3:28pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:55pm:

I would not censor sprint's posts

I support clamping down on anyone who incites violence - regardless of whether they are muslim or not. You probably don't remember an argument I had with FD a while back about those notorious placards calling for those who insult the prophet to be beheaded. I insisted they should have been arrested and charged for incitement to violence - FD, bizarrely, defended their right to say this.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gandalf on Jan 22^nd, 2015 at 3:53am

Adamant wrote on Jan 19^th, 2015 at 7:06pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 4:30am:

freediver wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 9:18am:

Gandalf do you support the Australian laws that outlaw holocaust denial?

The idea that rejecting the historical evidence of a particular event in history amounts to racial discrimination is absurd - don't you think?

So you would agree with historians that muslims killed 80 million Hindu's and about 3 million Armenians.

Good to see at least one muslim has decided to own up for islams disgusting past!

Use your brain for once adamant - you completely miss the point.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by freediver on Jan 22^nd, 2015 at 9:58am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2015 at 3:50am:

Adamant wrote on Jan 19^th, 2015 at 6:31pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 3:28pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:55pm:

I would not censor sprint's posts

Gandalf would you support banning Islamic texts that say similar things?

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by gandalf on Jan 22^nd, 2015 at 5:29pm

Thats a stupid thing to say FD, and we've been through it all before. Its a pretty simple rule - any threats of violence directed towards groups or individuals should be unlawful. Thats it.

Title: Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Post by freediver on Jan 23^rd, 2015 at 7:54am

A placard saying behead those who insult the prophet is no more directed than whatever islamic texts justify this punishment for blasphemy.