Big Bang Theory? You’ve got to be kidding.

Quantum equation predicts universe has no beginning

(Phys.org) — The universe may have existed forever, according to a new model that applies quantum correction terms to complement Einstein’s theory of general relativity. The model may also account for dark matter and dark energy, resolving multiple problems at once. 

The widely accepted age of the universe, as estimated by general relativity, is 13.8 billion years. In the beginning, everything in existence is thought to have occupied a single infinitely dense point, or singularity. Only after this point began to expand in a “Big Bang” did the universe officially begin.

Although the Big Bang singularity arises directly and unavoidably from the mathematics of general relativity, some scientists see it as problematic because the math can explain only what happened immediately after—not at or before—the singularity.

"The Big Bang singularity is the most serious problem of general relativity because the laws of physics appear to break down there," Ahmed Farag Ali at Benha University and the Zewail City of Science and Technology, both in Egypt, told Phys.org.

Ali and coauthor Saurya Das at the University of Lethbridge in Alberta, Canada, have shown in a paper published in Physics Letters B that the Big Bang singularity can be resolved by their new model in which the universe has no beginning and no end.

http://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html

---

Secularists: We’re Fine Without God, Thanks

Re “Building Better Secularists” (column, Feb. 3):

David Brooks says secular individuals have to build their own moral philosophies, while religious people inherit creeds that have evolved over centuries. Autonomous secular people are called upon to settle on their own individual sacred convictions.

Secularists don’t have to “build” anything; we can choose moral philosophies from what’s already well tested. If religious people think that their “faith” excuses them from evaluating the duties and taboos handed down to them, they are morally obtuse.

Does Mr. Brooks think that religious people are not “called upon to settle on their own individual sacred convictions”? Children may be excused for taking it on authority, but not adults.

Mr. Brooks writes, “Religious people are motivated by their love for God and their fervent desire to please Him.” We secularists have no need for love of any imaginary being, since there is a bounty of real things in the world to love, and to motivate us: peace, justice, freedom, learning, music, art, science, nature, love and health, for instance.

Our advice: Eliminate the middleman, and love the good stuff that we know is real.

DANIEL C. DENNETT

Medford, Mass.

The writer, a professor of philosophy at Tufts University, is co-author of “Caught in the Pulpit: Leaving Belief Behind.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/05/opinion/secularists-were-fine-without-god-thanks.html?_r=0

How presumptuous of David Brooks to instruct us “secularists” on how to live the moral life. We have to build our own moral philosophies? Nonsense. I learned mine from my atheistic parents and from teachers throughout my education (not to mention Aristotle, Kant, Mill and the many other moral philosophers I studied).

We have to reflect on spiritual matters? No, I reflect on the injustices in this world, why so many children in the United States go hungry, and why centuries of violence continue to persist in the name of religion.

In place of the religious spiritual life, we atheists may be enraptured by a Beethoven symphony, moved by the poetry of Elizabeth Barrett Browning, enchanted by a Rembrandt portrait. We have to build our own Sabbaths? No, thanks; I’ll spend my secular weekends at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, attending a New York Philharmonic concert or rereading “A Theory of Justice,” by John Rawls.

RUTH MACKLIN

Bronx

The writer is a professor of bioethics in the department of epidemiology and population health at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/05/opinion/secularists-were-fine-without-god-thanks.html?_r=0

---

1st sentence!.......      

Quote:

"may have"

That is what i like about 'modern science' in this 'modern technological age'.

The scientific 'process', is so definitive.             :P

Even scientific hypothesises leaves no place for doubt.            :)

......no place for doubt, about the incredible wisdom and insight, of man, in this age !!!!!            ;D



Dictionary;
incredible = =
1 impossible to believe.
2 difficult to believe; extraordinary.






Psalms 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God......


Romans 1:22
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


1 Corinthians 1:19
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.


Isaiah 29:14
Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

God must be real - I read the book.

He has been around for over 2000 years and you just toss a coin and create a topic on the spur of the moment.

FROM THE DISPARAGED, BIBLE

-------->



Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

IMAGE.....
https://playingintheworldgame.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/ii_earth_in_space.gif



Dictionary;
disparage = = represent as being of little worth; scorn.



.






Jeremiah, inspired by God? made this prediction, around 600 BC, at a time when he, Jeremiah could have had no inkling of the extent, and how much modern astronomy would accomplish and learn, coming into this modern age.

------>


Jeremiah 31:37
Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.


Man as yet, despite advances modern science and astronomy, is still unable to determine a boundary of the universe.

And the foundations of the earth have not, can never be, discovered, because as everyone knows today, the earth simply appears to be 'hanging' in space.

!!!

I don't see why this would disprove or prove a deity either way to be honest.

I think that a steady state universe model would raise a lot of questions too regarding the formation (and age) of planets and stars.

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 7:22am:

He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Don't get too excited Yadda, it also mentions a "firmament" :P

Just like the Hindu's shouldn't get excited because their beliefs state that the universe is billions of years old.

Also correct

Still believed without evidence.

FROM THE DISPARAGED, BIBLE

-------->






Isaiah 40:21
Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
22  It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
23  That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.


IMAGE.....
https://playingintheworldgame.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/ii_earth_in_space.gif

'upon the circle of the earth'



Dictionary;
disparage = = represent as being of little worth; scorn.

Stratos wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 7:23am:

I don't see why this would disprove or prove a deity either way to be honest. I think that a steady state universe model would raise a lot of questions too regarding the formation (and age) of planets and stars.

I may have missed this but why is the universe expanding at the exact rate explained by the big bang theory?

Wouldn't a static universe be static ?


Quote:

I don't see why this would disprove or prove a deity either way to be honest.

Didn't they always say that the big bang theory was what disproved this ? The fact that there was not a steady state universe model for the religious to rely on as proof in support of the bible?

Isaiah 45:15
Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.





'God' is not 'unknowable'.

But i do not know what, or who, our God and creator, is.

But the foolishness and vanity of man is on display for everyone to see.

Dnarever wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 7:43am:

I may have missed this but why is the universe expanding at the exact rate explained by the big bang theory?

Expansion of matter from a singularity. 


Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 7:38am:

'upon the circle of the earth'

The Earth is not a circle.  You are missing a dimension :P

Stratos wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 7:53am:

Yadda wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 7:38am: 'upon the circle of the earth' The Earth is not a circle.  You are missing a dimension :P

No, the Earth is not a 'circle'.


But viewed from space, the Earth appears to have a circular form.



The Bible does not claim that the Earth is a flat plane.

But it was just a few centuries ago that it was a popular 'hypothesis' among the common man, AND, among men of science [at that time], that the earth was 'obviously' situated/existed upon a flat plane.

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:07am:

But viewed from space, the Earth appears to have a circular form.

I dunno, its pretty obviously spherical.  Especially as if you are watching from space you can observe it spinning.


Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:07am:

But it was just a few centuries ago that it was a popular 'hypothesis' among the common man, AND, among men of science [at that time], that the earth was 'obviously' situated/existed upon a flat plane.

Yup.  With their knowledge at the time, this was a quite rational explanation based on the information they had.

Stratos wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:13am:

Yadda wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:07am: But viewed from space, the Earth appears to have a circular form. I dunno, its pretty obviously spherical.  Especially as if you are watching from space you can observe it spinning. Yadda wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:07am: But it was just a few centuries ago that it was a popular 'hypothesis' among the common man, AND, among men of science [at that time], that the earth was 'obviously' situated/existed upon a flat plane. Yup. With their knowledge at the time, this was a quite rational explanation based on the information they had.

And today, men the common man knows that God does not exist.

Because he, the common man, cannot see God.

.....the God [our creator], who [in scripture] has revealed that he [God] has a different 'form' from men.

And that he, God, exists in a spirit realm, which again, is a 'realm'/reality which is unknowable to our carnal mind/comprehension.

God DOES exist.

If you don't believe He does, ASK HIM...take that 1st step to genuinely ask Him to make Himself real to you.

There is nothing I can say or do to convince you otherwise.

ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT.

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:24am:

God DOES exist. If you don't believe He does, ASK HIM...take that 1st step to genuinely ask Him to make Himself real to you. There is nothing I can say or do to convince you otherwise. ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT.

Exactly so, Lisa




i.e.
We do not choose to know God.

God chooses to know us.          .....determined upon the 'condition' of our heart.

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:22am:

And today, men the common man knows that God does not exist. Because he, the common man, cannot see God.

I don't claim to know that God doesn't exist.  I think it would be quite foolish to claim that I could disprove a negative.  Most atheists are the same.


Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:22am:

And that he, God, exists in a spirit realm, which again, is a 'realm'/reality which is unknowable to our carnal mind/comprehension.

I get what you are saying, but according to Christian writings, God is supposed to interact with OUR realm/reality, and if this is the case, there should be some way to demonstrate such a beings existence.


Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:24am:

If you don't believe He does, ASK HIM...take that 1st step to genuinely ask Him to make Himself real to you.

I did for many years actually.

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:28am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:24am: God DOES exist. If you don't believe He does, ASK HIM...take that 1st step to genuinely ask Him to make Himself real to you. There is nothing I can say or do to convince you otherwise. ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT. Exactly so, Lisa i.e. We do not choose to know God. God chooses to know us.          .....determined upon the 'condition' of our heart.

So basically what you're saying is believers are lucky, atheists are unlucky.

Stratos wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:32am:

Yadda wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:22am: And today, men the common man knows that God does not exist. Because he, the common man, cannot see God. I don't claim to know that God doesn't exist. I think it would be quite foolish to claim that I could disprove a negative.

Stratos,

Neither did i suggest that you were one of the common man.              :P







Quote:

Most atheists are the same.

Really !

I would have suggested, that most atheists would claim, that there is no 'God'/creator being.

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:28am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:24am: God DOES exist. If you don't believe He does, ASK HIM...take that 1st step to genuinely ask Him to make Himself real to you. There is nothing I can say or do to convince you otherwise. ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT. Exactly so, Lisa i.e. We do not choose to know God. God chooses to know us.          .....determined upon the 'condition' of our heart.

Yes.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:38am:

Yadda wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:28am: Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:24am: God DOES exist. If you don't believe He does, ASK HIM...take that 1st step to genuinely ask Him to make Himself real to you. There is nothing I can say or do to convince you otherwise. ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT. Exactly so, Lisa i.e. We do not choose to know God. God chooses to know us.          .....determined upon the 'condition' of our heart. So basically what you're saying is believers are lucky, atheists are unlucky.

No. Not at all. Luck plays no part here.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:38am:

Yadda wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:28am: Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:24am: God DOES exist. If you don't believe He does, ASK HIM...take that 1st step to genuinely ask Him to make Himself real to you. There is nothing I can say or do to convince you otherwise. ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT. Exactly so, Lisa i.e. We do not choose to know God. God chooses to know us.          .....determined upon the 'condition' of our heart. So basically what you're saying is believers are lucky, atheists are unlucky.

Yes, that is correct.

I, Yadda, am a very, very lucky person.



.....because i love truth.

And i pursue it, even to my cost.







.








.






John 18:37
.....Jesus answered,.....To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.



John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2  The same was in the beginning with God.
3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


Isaiah 2:1
The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2  And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3  And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4  And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
5  O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.


Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11  I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.






.







John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18  I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19  Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20  At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21  He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.




Isaiah 55:6
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7  Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1417446122/3#3

Harvard university did a study on prayers, it's a waste of time nobody is listening.

news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/04.06/05-prayer.html

Yadda,

1. Are we lucky or BLESSED? Think about it.

2. Try and make your posts smaller. Split them into 2 if you have to. Long posts tend to get bypassed and ignored.

xxx Lisa

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:55am:

Harvard university did a study on prayers, it's a waste of time nobody is listening. news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/04.06/05-prayer.html

Hehe.

OK.




But you will excuse me if i am a dissenter.

:)

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:56am:

Yadda, 1. Are we lucky or BLESSED? Think about it. 2. Try and make your posts smaller. Split them into 2 if you have to. Long posts tend to get bypassed and ignored. xxx Lisa

#1,
Lisa, We are BLESSED!

Lisa,
QUESTION;
WHY are we BLESSED ?

ANSWER;

Quote:

We do not choose to know God. God chooses to know us.          .....determined upon the 'condition' of our heart.

We [our 'intellect'] can choose to look for God, to look for 'a' God.

But if our heart is not right, we will not be acknowledged.



this is scriptural

Psalms 1:1
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2  But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.


Psalms 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11  Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12  Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.


Psalms 73:1
Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.
2  But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped.
3  For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
4  For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm.
5  They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other men.
6  Therefore pride compasseth them about as a chain; violence covereth them as a garment.
7  Their eyes stand out with fatness: they have more than heart could wish.
8  They are corrupt, and speak wickedly concerning oppression: they speak loftily.
9  They set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue walketh through the earth.
10  Therefore his people return hither: and waters of a full cup are wrung out to them.
11  And they say, How doth God know? and is there knowledge in the most High?
12  Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.
13  Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency.
14  For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning.
15  If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children.
16  When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
17  Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.
18  Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.
19  How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.
20  As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.
21  Thus my heart was grieved, and I was pricked in my reins.
22  So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.
23  Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24  Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25  Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.
26  My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.
27  For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.
28  But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.



2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.....


Revelation 3:19
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.





.





#2,

Yadda FAIL.

Yet again.

;D

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:41am:

I would have suggested, that most atheists would claim, that there is no 'God'/creator being.

It is a little confusing, as the language is regarding a lack of belief rather than a belief.  It really is as simple as this:

theist- believes in a deity
atheist- does not believe in a deity.

The other issue is the knowledge claim, rather than the belief claim.

gnostic- claims to have knowledge
agnostic- does not claim to have knowledge (of a particular fact, not just in general :P)

I am an agnostic (does not claim knowledge) atheist (does not believe in a deity)

I'm guessing Yadda and Lisa are Gnostic (claim TO have knowledge) theists (believe in a deity)

You can have gnostic atheists and agnostic theists too, but those seem to be rarer

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:51am:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:38am: Yadda wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:28am: Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:24am: God DOES exist. If you don't believe He does, ASK HIM...take that 1st step to genuinely ask Him to make Himself real to you. There is nothing I can say or do to convince you otherwise. ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT. Exactly so, Lisa i.e. We do not choose to know God. God chooses to know us.          .....determined upon the 'condition' of our heart. So basically what you're saying is believers are lucky, atheists are unlucky. Yes, that is correct. I, Yadda, am a very, very lucky person. .....because i love truth. And i pursue it, even to my cost.

By truth do you mean scientific truth?

vikaryan wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 6:42am:

Big Bang Theory? You’ve got to be kidding. Quantum equation predicts universe has no beginning (Phys.org) — The universe may have existed forever, according to a new model that applies quantum correction terms to complement Einstein’s theory of general relativity. The model may also account for dark matter and dark energy, resolving multiple problems at once.  The widely accepted age of the universe, as estimated by general relativity, is 13.8 billion years. In the beginning, everything in existence is thought to have occupied a single infinitely dense point, or singularity. Only after this point began to expand in a “Big Bang” did the universe officially begin. Although the Big Bang singularity arises directly and unavoidably from the mathematics of general relativity, some scientists see it as problematic because the math can explain only what happened immediately after—not at or before—the singularity. "The Big Bang singularity is the most serious problem of general relativity because the laws of physics appear to break down there," Ahmed Farag Ali at Benha University and the Zewail City of Science and Technology, both in Egypt, told Phys.org. Ali and coauthor Saurya Das at the University of Lethbridge in Alberta, Canada, have shown in a paper published in Physics Letters B that the Big Bang singularity can be resolved by their new model in which the universe has no beginning and no end. http://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html

The problem with this statement is that whilst the actual moment of the Big Bang may defy modern physics, everything that occurred afterwards doesn't.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 11:03am:

modern physics

This is key too when looking at quantum mechanics:  Most are not logical. 

How can an object be in two places at once?
How can objects interact faster than the speed of light?
How can looking at things at a subatomic level change their characteristics?

No idea, but all have been demonstrated.  Fascinating stuff.

Stratos wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 11:21am:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 11:03am: modern physics This is key too when looking at quantum mechanics:  Most are not logical.  How can an object be in two places at once? How can objects interact faster than the speed of light? How can looking at things at a subatomic level change their characteristics? No idea, but all have been demonstrated.  Fascinating stuff.

AS Bohr said, if quantum mechanics hasn't profoundly shocked you, you haven't understood it yet.

Stratos wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 11:21am:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 11:03am: modern physics This is key too when looking at quantum mechanics:  Most are not logical.  How can an object be in two places at once? How can objects interact faster than the speed of light? How can looking at things at a subatomic level change their characteristics? No idea, but all have been demonstrated.  Fascinating stuff.

Yes.

All apparently true.

The observable universe, proving once again, that man is not quite as clever as he imagines that he is.



Quantum physics ?

I just watch the doco's on TV.           :)

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 12:01pm:

Stratos wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 11:21am: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 11:03am: modern physics This is key too when looking at quantum mechanics:  Most are not logical.  How can an object be in two places at once? How can objects interact faster than the speed of light? How can looking at things at a subatomic level change their characteristics? No idea, but all have been demonstrated.  Fascinating stuff. Yes. All apparently true. The observable universe, proving once again, that man is not quite as clever as he imagines that he is. Quantum physics ? I just watch the doco's on TV.           :)

Yes, so then don't have a go at those who do the work.

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 12:01pm:

The observable universe, proving once again, that man is not quite as clever as he imagines that he is.

Not quite sure what you are getting at here.

Scientists are always working from not having knowledge to obtaining more through observation and experimentation?

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 10:58am:

Yadda wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:51am: ......i love truth. And i pursue it, even to my cost. By truth do you mean scientific truth?

I love truth.

I do not, will not, accept a scientific hypothesis as truth, merely because it [the hypothesis] is, or has been, stated.
.....nor, will i accept a scientific hypothesis as truth, merely because some people believe that a scientific hypothesis may be true.





I stand in the camp that believes that there are many things about our circumstances on this little planet [in this 'reality'], that we do not understand, and may never fully understand.

And, i am open to be persuaded by logical and reasoned argument, as to what truth really is, and 'where' truth really stands.

And, i am open to being personally persuaded as to what truth really is, by my own personal experience [as an individual] [even when my personal experience cannot be communicated [i.e. proven] to others - e.g. Google OBE's].



But i am certain that truth stands far off from human dogma and human ideology.

Men, mankind, are corrupt and are highly corruptible,       ....in my experience.

Me too.            :-[




Dictionary;dogma = = a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertible.


Dictionary;
ideology = = a system of ideas and ideals forming the basis of an economic or political theory.       the set of beliefs characteristic of a social group or individual.



Such a position [as i hold] is not in conflict with reading and valuing the ideas and concepts that are revealed within that 'sky faerie' book, the Bible, imo.

I love truth.

I pursue truth.

That position does not in any way, preclude me from having great respect for the ideas and the concepts that are contained within the Bible.

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 9:07am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:56am: Yadda, 1. Are we lucky or BLESSED? Think about it. 2. Try and make your posts smaller. Split them into 2 if you have to. Long posts tend to get bypassed and ignored. xxx Lisa #1, Lisa, We are BLESSED! Lisa, QUESTION; WHY are we BLESSED ? ANSWER; Quote: We do not choose to know God. God chooses to know us.          .....determined upon the 'condition' of our heart. We [our 'intellect'] can choose to look for God, to look for 'a' God. But if our heart is not right, we will not be acknowledged. this is scriptural Psalms 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. 2  But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. Psalms 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11  Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12  Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Psalms 73:1 Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart. 2  But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped. 3  For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. 4  For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm. 5  They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other men. 6  Therefore pride compasseth them about as a chain; violence covereth them as a garment. 7  Their eyes stand out with fatness: they have more than heart could wish. 8  They are corrupt, and speak wickedly concerning oppression: they speak loftily. 9  They set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue walketh through the earth. 10  Therefore his people return hither: and waters of a full cup are wrung out to them. 11  And they say, How doth God know? and is there knowledge in the most High? 12  Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches. 13  Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency. 14  For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning. 15  If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children. 16  When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me; 17  Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end. 18  Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction. 19  How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors. 20  As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image. 21  Thus my heart was grieved, and I was pricked in my reins. 22  So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee. 23  Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand. 24  Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. 25  Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. 26  My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever. 27  For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee. 28  But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works. 2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his..... Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. #2, Yadda FAIL. Yet again.

Yadda, you have a good heart and a genuine spirit. And you clearly put a lot of work into your posts.

Much respect.

Please work on splitting your posts into 2.  They are still wayyyyy toooo longggg lol  ;D

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 12:31pm:

Yadda, you have a good heart and a genuine spirit. And you clearly put a lot of work into your posts. Much respect. Please work on splitting your posts into 2.  They are still wayyyyy toooo longggg        lol  ;D

LOL

xxx, Yadda.

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 12:29pm:

I do not, will not, accept a scientific hypothesis as truth, merely because it [the hypothesis] is, or has been, stated.

Nor should you, or indeed anyone.  Hypothesis is just a prediction based on what we know.


Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 12:29pm:

Such a position [as i hold] is not in conflict with reading and valuing the ideas and concepts that are revealed within that 'sky faerie' book, the Bible, imo.

What would you do if facts where discovered to be in direct contradiction with the Bible?

What is god?

Until you can answer that, its pointless to speculate on whether it exists or not.

... wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

What is god?

You must be an Ignostic :P

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 12:29pm:

I do not, will not, accept a scientific hypothesis as truth, merely because it [the hypothesis] is, or has been, stated. .....nor, will i accept a scientific hypothesis as truth, merely because some people believe that a scientific hypothesis may be true.

What is an example of this in your book? A scientific hypothesis that people believe in ?

This is what God's Holy Word has to say....

Psalm 14.1

The fool has said in his heart, there is no God.


Psalm 14.2

God looks down from heaven to see if there are any that seek Him.

Hence why in my original post in this topic, I stated that only God can make Himself known to you in a real way... but you have to seek Him and ask Him to.

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:24am:

God DOES exist. If you don't believe He does, ASK HIM...take that 1st step to genuinely ask Him to make Himself real to you. There is nothing I can say or do to convince you otherwise. ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT.

Well, actually, THIS is what I stated initially.

Apologies.. am in need of a coffee.

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 2:03pm:

This is what God's Holy Word has to say.... Psalm 14.1 The fool has said in his heart, there is no God. Psalm 14.2 God looks down from heaven to see if there are any that seek Him. Hence why in my original post in this topic, I stated that only God can make Himself known to you in a real way... but you have to seek Him and ask Him to.

So book says fools don't believe in God, therefore God exists. Well I'm convinced.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 1:57pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 12:29pm: I do not, will not, accept a scientific hypothesis as truth, merely because it [the hypothesis] is, or has been, stated. .....nor, will i accept a scientific hypothesis as truth, merely because some people believe that a scientific hypothesis may be true. What is an example of this in your book? A scientific hypothesis that people believe in ?

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22  Abstain from all appearance of evil.






.







Psalms 1:1
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2  But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3  And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4  The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5  Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.


Matthew 7:12
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.








IMAGE.....
http://www.thenational.ae/storyimage/AB/20140726/ARTICLE/140729382/AR/0/&MaxW=640&imageVersion=default&AR-140729382.jpg

Gaza devastation.





.





Yadda said.....

Quote:

[quote] Surrounding moslem nations have been assailing Israel - since 1948. Today, Israel exists, is strong, and is thriving. ....... ....... In contrast with Israel,          every moslem nation in the region is in disarray and is being rent apart with internal - moslem - conflicts. Why so ? Aren't the moslems, the people who are blessed by Allah, their god - ...as a reward to moslems, for their righteousness, FOR BEING MOSLEMS ? ISRAEL.... Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee.... Genesis 27:29 ....cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee. Numbers 24:9 ....Blessed is he that blesseth thee, and cursed is he that curseth thee. Moslems have been deceived          ...by their own jealousy and self-pride. And moslems have been cursed, BY GOD - because of their wicked enmity towards their brothers, Israel. ISLAM is a false religion. Mohammed is a false [self-serving] prophet. Moslems are slaves,         to a false and wicked spirit. Galatians 4:22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23  But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25  For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27  For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30  Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. The blessing [of God], is with the children of Isaac [and Jacob - ISRAEL]. Genesis 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac. 11  And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. 12  And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. ....Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: Exodus 4:22

.







The international community should be standing with Israel.


Video tour through Israel

Israel ¡Seeing is Believing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLgdb6r0MQ4




Psalms 85:9
Surely his salvation is nigh them that fear him; that glory may dwell in our land.
10  Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
11  Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven.
12  Yea, the LORD shall give that which is good; and our land shall yield her increase.
13  Righteousness shall go before him; and shall set us in the way of his steps.

[/quote]

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 2:03pm:

This is what God's Holy Word has to say.... Psalm 14.1 The fool has said in his heart, there is no God. Psalm 14.2 God looks down from heaven to see if there are any that seek Him. Hence why in my original post in this topic, I stated that only God can make Himself known to you in a real way... but you have to seek Him and ask Him to.

1 Timothy 2:12

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 1:57pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 12:29pm: I do not, will not, accept a scientific hypothesis as truth, merely because it [the hypothesis] is, or has been, stated. .....nor, will i accept a scientific hypothesis as truth, merely because some people believe that a scientific hypothesis may be true. What is an example of this in your book? A scientific hypothesis that people believe in ?

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22  Abstain from all appearance of evil.





.




Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his [Israel's] redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


Isaiah 54:6
For the LORD hath called thee [Israel] as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7  For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8  In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.


Jeremiah 23:3
And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4  And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
5  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6  In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7  Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8  But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.





.






The international community should be standing with Israel.


Video tour through Israel

Israel ¡Seeing is Believing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLgdb6r0MQ4




Psalms 85:9
Surely his salvation is nigh them that fear him; that glory may dwell in our land.
10  Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
11  Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven.
12  Yea, the LORD shall give that which is good; and our land shall yield her increase.
13  Righteousness shall go before him; and shall set us in the way of his steps.





.






1948

Isaiah 66:8
Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.


Jeremiah 23:8
.....The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.





Psalms 129:5
Let them all be confounded and turned back that hate Zion.


Psalms 132:13
For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.


Psalms 149:1
Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.
2  Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.
3  Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
4  For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.




Christians insist that Jesus is our saviour.

The Bible declares that it is God [himself], who will be the saviour of his people.

Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11  I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.




John 4:24
God is a Spirit:...


John 10:30
I and my Father are one.



John 14:8
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

I think he might have been referring to more of a scientific truth, rather than one based on notoriously subjective morals.

God doesn't exist in a way you exist now and will not exist in as soon as you die.

Yet you will not be forgotten the day you die. Is you idea, memory, mark on the world disappear on the day you die? No. That is just how God lives on after you die.

When you die, that's the end of you. It is not the end of the world. It is certainly not the end of god.

Life, existence is a person that you cannot but relate to.  Because you cannot relate to so significantly similar thing (life, love, meaning)  in any other way. God is a person like you but not in the trivial manner that you are a person.
Ineffable yet immanent mysticism is both under and over-rated, in each case because the wrong thing is emphasised.

Raven wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 7:05pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 2:03pm: This is what God's Holy Word has to say.... Psalm 14.1 The fool has said in his heart, there is no God. Psalm 14.2 God looks down from heaven to see if there are any that seek Him. Hence why in my original post in this topic, I stated that only God can make Himself known to you in a real way... but you have to seek Him and ask Him to. 1 Timothy 2:12

I'm not sure why certain people bring irrelevant and offtopic verses from the Holy Bible into discussions such as this. I find it most irritating and tantamount to trolling.

Lisa, it is because they are unable to think for themselves.

Soren wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:12pm:

God doesn't exist in a way you exist now and will not exist in as soon as you die. Yet you will not be forgotten the day you die. Is you idea, memory, mark on the world disappear on the day you die? No. That is just how God lives on after you die. When you die, that's the end of you. It is not the end of the world. It is certainly not the end of god. Life, existence is a person that you cannot but relate to.  Because you cannot relate to so significantly similar thing (life, love, meaning)  in any other way. God is a person like you but not in the trivial manner that you are a person. Ineffable yet immanent mysticism is both under and over-rated, in each case because the wrong thing is emphasised.

Soren, my dear friend, are you an agnostic or an atheist?

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:25pm:

Soren, my dear friend, are you an agnostic or an atheist?

Lisa, these aren't mutually exclusive.  I myself am an atheist and an agnostic.

I posted this description before:


Stratos wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 9:09am:

Yadda wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:41am: I would have suggested, that most atheists would claim, that there is no 'God'/creator being. It is a little confusing, as the language is regarding a lack of belief rather than a belief.  It really is as simple as this: theist- believes in a deity atheist- does not believe in a deity. The other issue is the knowledge claim, rather than the belief claim. gnostic- claims to have knowledge agnostic- does not claim to have knowledge (of a particular fact, not just in general :P) I am an agnostic (does not claim knowledge) atheist (does not believe in a deity) I'm guessing Yadda and Lisa are Gnostic (claim TO have knowledge) theists (believe in a deity) You can have gnostic atheists and agnostic theists too, but those seem to be rarer

If you have any questions about it just ask :)

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:25pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:12pm: God doesn't exist in a way you exist now and will not exist in as soon as you die. Yet you will not be forgotten the day you die. Is you idea, memory, mark on the world disappear on the day you die? No. That is just how God lives on after you die. When you die, that's the end of you. It is not the end of the world. It is certainly not the end of god. Life, existence is a person that you cannot but relate to.  Because you cannot relate to so significantly similar thing (life, love, meaning)  in any other way. God is a person like you but not in the trivial manner that you are a person. Ineffable yet immanent mysticism is both under and over-rated, in each case because the wrong thing is emphasised. Soren, my dear friend, are you an agnostic or an atheist?

I am a believer - after a certain age you are lying or you are unimaginative if you say anything else.
What I believe is a bit - only a bit, I am no egotist - more complex than received dogma.

The world is incomprehensible without God. That god is also incomprehensible makes it all that much more of a lifelong challenge. But dismissing god because it is a challenging idea or a challenging presence or immanence is just spiteful stupidity.
There is nothing worse than to live only once and spend that single lifetime on cultivating spiteful stupidity. Yet many decide on just such a life.
Not me.

Soren wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:49pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:25pm: Soren wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:12pm: God doesn't exist in a way you exist now and will not exist in as soon as you die. Yet you will not be forgotten the day you die. Is you idea, memory, mark on the world disappear on the day you die? No. That is just how God lives on after you die. When you die, that's the end of you. It is not the end of the world. It is certainly not the end of god. Life, existence is a person that you cannot but relate to.  Because you cannot relate to so significantly similar thing (life, love, meaning)  in any other way. God is a person like you but not in the trivial manner that you are a person. Ineffable yet immanent mysticism is both under and over-rated, in each case because the wrong thing is emphasised. Soren, my dear friend, are you an agnostic or an atheist? I am a believer - after a certain age you are lying or you are unimaginative if you say anything else. What I believe is a bit - only a bit, I am no egotist - more complex than received dogma. The world is incomprehensible without God. That god is also incomprehensible makes it all that much more of a lifelong challenge. But dismissing god because it is a challenging idea or a challenging presence or immanence is just spiteful stupidity. There is nothing worse than to live only once and spend that single lifetime on cultivating spiteful stupidity. Yet many decide on just such a life. Not me.

What a beautiful reply.

I can actually relate to what you are saying.

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 9:24pm:

[edit][/edit] Soren wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:49pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:25pm: Soren wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:12pm: God doesn't exist in a way you exist now and will not exist in as soon as you die. Yet you will not be forgotten the day you die. Is you idea, memory, mark on the world disappear on the day you die? No. That is just how God lives on after you die. When you die, that's the end of you. It is not the end of the world. It is certainly not the end of god. Life, existence is a person that you cannot but relate to.  Because you cannot relate to so significantly similar thing (life, love, meaning)  in any other way. God is a person like you but not in the trivial manner that you are a person. Ineffable yet immanent mysticism is both under and over-rated, in each case because the wrong thing is emphasised. Soren, my dear friend, are you an agnostic or an atheist? I am a believer - after a certain age you are lying or you are unimaginative if you say anything else. What I believe is a bit - only a bit, I am no egotist - more complex than received dogma. The world is incomprehensible without God. That god is also incomprehensible makes it all that much more of a lifelong challenge. But dismissing god because it is a challenging idea or a challenging presence or immanence is just spiteful stupidity. There is nothing worse than to live only once and spend that single lifetime on cultivating spiteful stupidity. Yet many decide on just such a life. Not me. What a beautiful reply.

If insecure, closed-mindedness is beautiful then, yes, I suppose it was.

Soren wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:49pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:25pm: Soren wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:12pm: God doesn't exist in a way you exist now and will not exist in as soon as you die. Yet you will not be forgotten the day you die. Is you idea, memory, mark on the world disappear on the day you die? No. That is just how God lives on after you die. When you die, that's the end of you. It is not the end of the world. It is certainly not the end of god. Life, existence is a person that you cannot but relate to.  Because you cannot relate to so significantly similar thing (life, love, meaning)  in any other way. God is a person like you but not in the trivial manner that you are a person. Ineffable yet immanent mysticism is both under and over-rated, in each case because the wrong thing is emphasised. Soren, my dear friend, are you an agnostic or an atheist? I am a believer - after a certain age you are lying or you are unimaginative if you say anything else. What I believe is a bit - only a bit, I am no egotist - more complex than received dogma. The world is incomprehensible without God. That god is also incomprehensible makes it all that much more of a lifelong challenge. But dismissing god because it is a challenging idea or a challenging presence or immanence is just spiteful stupidity. There is nothing worse than to live only once and spend that single lifetime on cultivating spiteful stupidity. Yet many decide on just such a life. Not me.

Q.
Will those things which are thus far, 'undiscovered' [which many may claim are, essentially, un-discoverable], and thus far 'beyond our reach', always remain so ?

A.
They always will be, unless we are willing to 'reach out', and search for them.



Alternatively, many people on this little planet, have 'gone native', and are quite content with that [temporary] 'circumstance'.

An opinion, expressed by Yadda.





Quote:

"There is nothing worse than to live only once and spend that single lifetime on cultivating spiteful stupidity."

Well said, Soren.

Soren wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:49pm:

The world is incomprehensible without God

Why do you think this Soren?  What parts of the world do you think are best explained by a deity?

Soren wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:49pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:25pm: Soren wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:12pm: God doesn't exist in a way you exist now and will not exist in as soon as you die. Yet you will not be forgotten the day you die. Is you idea, memory, mark on the world disappear on the day you die? No. That is just how God lives on after you die. When you die, that's the end of you. It is not the end of the world. It is certainly not the end of god. Life, existence is a person that you cannot but relate to.  Because you cannot relate to so significantly similar thing (life, love, meaning)  in any other way. God is a person like you but not in the trivial manner that you are a person. Ineffable yet immanent mysticism is both under and over-rated, in each case because the wrong thing is emphasised. Soren, my dear friend, are you an agnostic or an atheist? I am a believer - after a certain age you are lying or you are unimaginative if you say anything else. What I believe is a bit - only a bit, I am no egotist - more complex than received dogma. The world is incomprehensible without God. That god is also incomprehensible makes it all that much more of a lifelong challenge. But dismissing god because it is a challenging idea or a challenging presence or immanence is just spiteful stupidity. There is nothing worse than to live only once and spend that single lifetime on cultivating spiteful stupidity. Yet many decide on just such a life. Not me.

I must say, I'm a bit surprised by your posts on this. You usually articulate yourself quite well, but you haven't here. A person, but not a person? If you're going to go to the trouble to communicate what you believe, at least do it in a way that can be understood.

Do you believe in God as a creator, conscious manipulator and judge/deliverer of punishment?

Is God an idea or a presence or just faith itself?

post #58

Yes!
Lay bear your soul Soren, do tell.        ....says Annie!



LOL

The more I learn, the more I think it is unwise to have fixed views on things.

Soren wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:49pm:

The world is incomprehensible without God. That god is also incomprehensible makes it all that much more of a lifelong challenge. But dismissing god because it is a challenging idea or a challenging presence or immanence is just spiteful stupidity. There is nothing worse than to live only once and spend that single lifetime on cultivating spiteful stupidity. Yet many decide on just such a life. Not me.

Ah the old how do you see beauty without God argument. The world is comprehensible to me without God. Why? Because I understand the processes. The most natural beauty I find is inside a cave, which have taken tens of thousands (at least) years to form. I appreciate the power of water and the carbon dioxide dissolved within to reshape rock and form crystal.

I dont dismiss God because he is a challenging idea. I consider the concept of not having God to be a far more challenging idea, because it forces us to find actual answers for what we see (not just well God did it)

Stratos wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 7:08pm:

I think he might have been referring to more of a scientific truth, rather than one based on notoriously subjective morals.

Yes I was looking for scientific truths.

greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 9:27pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 9:24pm: [edit][/edit] Soren wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:49pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:25pm: Soren wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:12pm: God doesn't exist in a way you exist now and will not exist in as soon as you die. Yet you will not be forgotten the day you die. Is you idea, memory, mark on the world disappear on the day you die? No. That is just how God lives on after you die. When you die, that's the end of you. It is not the end of the world. It is certainly not the end of god. Life, existence is a person that you cannot but relate to.  Because you cannot relate to so significantly similar thing (life, love, meaning)  in any other way. God is a person like you but not in the trivial manner that you are a person. Ineffable yet immanent mysticism is both under and over-rated, in each case because the wrong thing is emphasised. Soren, my dear friend, are you an agnostic or an atheist? I am a believer - after a certain age you are lying or you are unimaginative if you say anything else. What I believe is a bit - only a bit, I am no egotist - more complex than received dogma. The world is incomprehensible without God. That god is also incomprehensible makes it all that much more of a lifelong challenge. But dismissing god because it is a challenging idea or a challenging presence or immanence is just spiteful stupidity. There is nothing worse than to live only once and spend that single lifetime on cultivating spiteful stupidity. Yet many decide on just such a life. Not me. What a beautiful reply. If insecure, closed-mindedness is beautiful then, yes, I suppose it was.

"There is nothing worse than to live only once and spend that single lifetime on cultivating spiteful stupidity."

And you embody that spiteful stupidity, eagerly, at every opportunity.  That is your role in life.  You embody the warning to us all about spiteful stupidity.

Thank you, faithful ijit,  it's a service you perform without realising it (of course).

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 13^th, 2015 at 8:25am:

Soren wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:49pm: The world is incomprehensible without God. That god is also incomprehensible makes it all that much more of a lifelong challenge. But dismissing god because it is a challenging idea or a challenging presence or immanence is just spiteful stupidity. There is nothing worse than to live only once and spend that single lifetime on cultivating spiteful stupidity. Yet many decide on just such a life. Not me. Ah the old how do you see beauty without God argument. The world is comprehensible to me without God. Why? Because I understand the processes. The most natural beauty I find is inside a cave, which have taken tens of thousands (at least) years to form. I appreciate the power of water and the carbon dioxide dissolved within to reshape rock and form crystal.

That is a common 'scientific' assumption 'scientific' hypothesis.

But it is a hypothesis which can be easily challenged.

Many large caves could easily have been eroded in tens of years, if the PH and the volume of the water passing through the ground was conducive to rapid erosion.



Google;
stalactites in man-made structures

.....in tens of years.

Yadda wrote on Feb 13^th, 2015 at 9:22am:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 13th, 2015 at 8:25am: Soren wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:49pm: The world is incomprehensible without God. That god is also incomprehensible makes it all that much more of a lifelong challenge. But dismissing god because it is a challenging idea or a challenging presence or immanence is just spiteful stupidity. There is nothing worse than to live only once and spend that single lifetime on cultivating spiteful stupidity. Yet many decide on just such a life. Not me. Ah the old how do you see beauty without God argument. The world is comprehensible to me without God. Why? Because I understand the processes. The most natural beauty I find is inside a cave, which have taken tens of thousands (at least) years to form. I appreciate the power of water and the carbon dioxide dissolved within to reshape rock and form crystal. That is a common 'scientific' assumption 'scientific' hypothesis. But it is a hypothesis which can be easily challenged. Many large caves could easily have been eroded in tens of years, if the PH and the volume of the water passing through the ground was conducive to rapid erosion. Google; stalactites in man-made structures .....in tens of years.

Only one issue with that Yadda. It is true that it is possible, its even occurred http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lechuguilla_Cave is an example of such a cave. However the result is gypsum not calcite crystals because of the effect of the acid. Again hypothesis tested, evdience found. Sorry please try again

Additionally, even if the caves form in tens of years the actual rock/clay of the caves is far older. E.g. Jenolan which has been found to be 340 million years old

Soren wrote on Feb 13^th, 2015 at 8:48am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 9:27pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 9:24pm: [edit][/edit] Soren wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:49pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:25pm: Soren wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 8:12pm: God doesn't exist in a way you exist now and will not exist in as soon as you die. Yet you will not be forgotten the day you die. Is you idea, memory, mark on the world disappear on the day you die? No. That is just how God lives on after you die. When you die, that's the end of you. It is not the end of the world. It is certainly not the end of god. Life, existence is a person that you cannot but relate to.  Because you cannot relate to so significantly similar thing (life, love, meaning)  in any other way. God is a person like you but not in the trivial manner that you are a person. Ineffable yet immanent mysticism is both under and over-rated, in each case because the wrong thing is emphasised. Soren, my dear friend, are you an agnostic or an atheist? I am a believer - after a certain age you are lying or you are unimaginative if you say anything else. What I believe is a bit - only a bit, I am no egotist - more complex than received dogma. The world is incomprehensible without God. That god is also incomprehensible makes it all that much more of a lifelong challenge. But dismissing god because it is a challenging idea or a challenging presence or immanence is just spiteful stupidity. There is nothing worse than to live only once and spend that single lifetime on cultivating spiteful stupidity. Yet many decide on just such a life. Not me. What a beautiful reply. If insecure, closed-mindedness is beautiful then, yes, I suppose it was. "There is nothing worse than to live only once and spend that single lifetime on cultivating spiteful stupidity."

Such as following a God.

Yes.

"It's turtles all the way down."

What holds up the last turtle?

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 13^th, 2015 at 11:38pm:

What holds up the last turtle?

There is no last turtle ;D

As you said, turtles all the way down

Stratos wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 1:21am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 13th, 2015 at 11:38pm: What holds up the last turtle? There is no last turtle ;D As you said, turtles all the way down

Yup.

There is no turtle.

The earth just hangs there, in space.



Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

IMAGE.....
https://playingintheworldgame.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/ii_earth_in_space.gif

Yadda wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 1:39am:

The earth just hangs there, in space.

Hangs there?

It (and us, our soloar system, our galaxy and the entire universe!) are travelling at over a million km every second

Stratos wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 6:43am:

Yadda wrote on Feb 14th, 2015 at 1:39am: The earth just hangs there, in space. Hangs there? It (and us, our soloar system, our galaxy and the entire universe!) are travelling at over a million km every second

Are we there yet?

Soren wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 8:38am:

Are we there yet?

No

Keep asking and I swear I'll turn this galaxy around.

greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 13^th, 2015 at 11:07am:

Soren wrote on Feb 13th, 2015 at 8:48am: "There is nothing worse than to live only once and spend that single lifetime on cultivating spiteful stupidity." Such as following a God.

Luke 11:9
And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.




Loving God, and loving his ways, and loving his righteousness, is not 'cultivating spiteful stupidity'.

Loving God, is a path which leads to happiness,    ...for a man, and for all mankind.

Man seeks what is selfish, and what is pleasing to himself,      ...it is in our nature.

God seeks only our [mankind's] well-being.


Isaiah 48:17
Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
18  O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:




Deuteronomy 5:29
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
30  Go say to them, Get you into your tents again.
31  But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it.
32  Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.
33  Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.


Deuteronomy 32:28
For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.
29  O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!




.




God [the creator] in scripture describes mankind, as having the status of his [Gods] created 'children'.



Deuteronomy 32:19
And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

Isaiah 1:2
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

Jeremiah 4:22
For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.




Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18  For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.


God's creation, is in process.

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:...



We, mankind, as his potential children, have been given an opportunity,       ....to choose well, or, to choose poorly.

Choices always have some consequence.


Matthew 13:47
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48  Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.


Harvest.

Yadda wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 11:08am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 13th, 2015 at 11:07am: Soren wrote on Feb 13th, 2015 at 8:48am: "There is nothing worse than to live only once and spend that single lifetime on cultivating spiteful stupidity." Such as following a God. Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. Loving God, and loving his ways, and loving his righteousness, is not 'cultivating spiteful stupidity'. Loving God, is a path which leads to happiness,    ...for a man, and for all mankind. Man seeks what is selfish, and what is pleasing to himself,      ...it is in our nature. God seeks only our [mankind's] well-being. Isaiah 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18  O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea: Deuteronomy 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! 30  Go say to them, Get you into your tents again. 31  But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it. 32  Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. 33  Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess. Deuteronomy 32:28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them. 29  O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end! . God [the creator] in scripture describes mankind, as having the status of his [Gods] created 'children'. Deuteronomy 32:19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. Isaiah 1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18  For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. God's creation, is in process. Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:... We, mankind, as his potential children, have been given an opportunity,       ....to choose well, or, to choose poorly. Choices always have some consequence. Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48  Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. Harvest.

Ghey

Soren wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 8:38am:

Stratos wrote on Feb 14th, 2015 at 6:43am: Yadda wrote on Feb 14th, 2015 at 1:39am: The earth just hangs there, in space. Hangs there? It (and us, our soloar system, our galaxy and the entire universe!) are travelling at over a million km every second Are we there yet?

I know where i am going.

As far away, as i can possibly get, from people like Stratos.



Yes, i have a choice in that.



As far away, as i can possibly get, from people like Stratos ?

.....i.e. those persons who make 'care-less' choices, and then later, seek to blame others and/or avoid responsibility, for the consequences of their poor choices.



p.s.
I Yadda, have also made many, many poor choices too.

And today, i try to do EVERYTHING within my own power, to try to avoid making those same poor choices.

Yadda wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 11:08am:

God seeks only our [mankind's] well-being.

By getting his followers to murder babies?

Yadda wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 11:54am:

.....i.e. those persons who make 'care-less' choices, and then later, seek to blame others and/or avoid responsibility, for the consequences of their poor choices.

Ah yes.  What if I'm wrong and I end up in hell I assume you mean?

What if you're wrong and Allah sends us both to hell?

Stratos wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 11:57am:

Yadda wrote on Feb 14th, 2015 at 11:54am: .....i.e. those persons who make 'care-less' choices, and then later, seek to blame others and/or avoid responsibility, for the consequences of their poor choices. Ah yes.  What if I'm wrong and I end up in hell I assume you mean? What if you're wrong and Allah sends us both to hell?

I am subject to my God.

Not 'Allah'.




How do i know that there is a 'my God' ?

My task was not to prove a negative.

:)




Stratos,

How do you know there is NO 'my God' ?

How are you going, with the proof for that ?               ;D

Yadda wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 9:18pm:

How do you know there is NO 'my God' ?

I don't, nor have I ever claimed too.


Yadda wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 9:18pm:

How are you going, with the proof for that ?

Positive claims require evidence.  If there is any solid evidence that a deity exists, please share it.

Until such evidence is provided, I will take the logical conclusion of not believing it something until it has been demonstrated.

Stratos wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 9:30pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 14th, 2015 at 9:18pm: How do you know there is NO 'my God' ? I don't, nor have I ever claimed too. Yadda wrote on Feb 14th, 2015 at 9:18pm: How are you going, with the proof for that ?  Positive claims require evidence.  If there is any solid evidence that a deity exists, please share it. Until such evidence is provided, I will take the logical conclusion of not believing it something until it has been demonstrated.

Do you have solid evidence that Love, Hope, Kindness, Regret, Sympathy, Despair, Joy, Elation exist?  Can you provide 'solid evidence' for them?

No. Yet they are the stuff of human life.

This insistence on 'solid evidence' stuff is for adolescents. You know that interpersonal relationships are fraught and complex and REAL - yet there is no 'solid evidence' for them, only the reports of experience from countless people.
Same with god. There is countless instances of humans experiencing 'god'. No 'solid evidence' but experience. God is what all those human beings experience.

Soren wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 9:49pm:

Do you have solid evidence that Love, Hope, Kindness, Regret, Sympathy, Despair, Joy, Elation exist?  Can you provide 'solid evidence' for them?

These are all observable, and these are things everybody experiences.  Just because it isn't physical doesn't mean it doens't exist.


Soren wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 9:49pm:

Same with god. There is countless instances of humans experiencing 'god'. No 'solid evidence' but experience. God is what all those human beings experience.

Which deity?

Stratos wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 9:30pm:

Positive claims require evidence.  If there is any solid evidence that a deity exists, please share it. Until such evidence is provided, I will take the logical conclusion of not believing it something until it has been demonstrated.

So what is the logical explanation for the existence of ... well ... everything?

Human beings are only describers and tinkerers of what already exists.

'Logical' explanations usually resort to isolating a phenomenon and then describing it via cause and effect sequences. The problem here is twofold: one is that describing by cause and effect results in the problem of infinite regress or to a singular cause (sometimes named as the "unmoved mover"); the second is sometimes mysterious powers are reinserted back into the phenomenon in question. For example, "force" or "power" is often used to describe the movement of physical entities. What are these but the reinsertion of mysterious and unknown phenomena? I am not arguing for a god, but I am very wary of the limits of naturalistic interpretations.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 9:58pm:

So what is the logical explanation for the existence of ... well ... everything?

I'm not quite sure I understand your question.  Like the origin of the universe?


Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 9:58pm:

The problem here is twofold: one is that describing by cause and effect results in the problem of infinite regress or to a singular cause

Infinite regression can apply to any topic.  Eventually, you will get to a point that cannot be explained.  When that happens, I believe the best answer is "hey I don't know", not "god" (unless of course there would be some evidence to suggest a god of course)

Stratos wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 9:57pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 14th, 2015 at 9:49pm: Do you have solid evidence that Love, Hope, Kindness, Regret, Sympathy, Despair, Joy, Elation exist?  Can you provide 'solid evidence' for them? These are all observable, and these are things everybody experiences.  Just because it isn't physical doesn't mean it doens't exist.

The experiencing of god is also observable.

And what do you mean 'just because it isn't physical'.  What is 'solid evidence' if not physical (ie material, which is the meaning of physical)?

Soren wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 10:10pm:

What is 'solid evidence' if not physical (ie material, which is the meaning of physical)?

Take your pick of any religious claim.  Supernatural healing, effectiveness of prayer, miracles.  Anything that could provide evidence that a supernatural being exists.

Stratos wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 10:06pm:

Infinite regression can apply to any topic.  Eventually, you will get to a point that cannot be explained.  When that happens, I believe the best answer is "hey I don't know", not "god" (unless of course there would be some evidence to suggest a god of course)

Yes, it can be applied to any topic. But I only argue this point because I want to see the atheists' explanation. Many atheists reject god because they're offended of what someone done in the name of religion the other day or a few hundred years ago. They rarely reject it on epistemological grounds - because they can't argue the point! 

Stratos wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 10:18pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 14th, 2015 at 10:10pm: What is 'solid evidence' if not physical (ie material, which is the meaning of physical)? Take your pick of any religious claim.  Supernatural healing, effectiveness of prayer, miracles.  Anything that could provide evidence that a supernatural being exists.

Do you accept supernatural evidence for a supernatural being? Or only natural evidence?

Or to put it another way, do you accept natural evidence as being evidence of a supernatural being? If the latter, look around you and tell me that you comprehend that it is all due to blind chance. 

You do not comprehend it. Nobody does. It is impossible to comprehend that what you see around you - your actual, personal experience - is due to a very long chain of completely random chance events. It is unthinkable.  You can say it - like you can say 2+2=74 -  but you cannot think it.

Soren wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 10:25pm:

Do you accept supernatural evidence for a supernatural being? Or only natural evidence?

What have you got?


Soren wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 10:25pm:

If the latter, look around you and tell me that you comprehend that it is all due to blind chance.

Through scientific research, we know a lot about how the universe and everything was formed.  Like I said before Soren, I would rather admit I don't know than believe that an unknown being did something.


Soren wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 10:25pm:

It is impossible to comprehend that what you see around you - your actual, personal experience - is due to a very long chain of completely random chance events.

What specifically is incomprehensible in your opinion?

Stratos wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 10:32pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 14th, 2015 at 10:25pm: Do you accept supernatural evidence for a supernatural being? Or only natural evidence? What have you got? Soren wrote on Feb 14th, 2015 at 10:25pm: If the latter, look around you and tell me that you comprehend that it is all due to blind chance.  Through scientific research, we know a lot about how the universe and everything was formed.  Like I said before Soren, I would rather admit I don't know than believe that an unknown being did something. Soren wrote on Feb 14th, 2015 at 10:25pm: It is impossible to comprehend that what you see around you - your actual, personal experience - is due to a very long chain of completely random chance events. What specifically is incomprehensible in your opinion?

Science is blind to matters of the heart, of meaning and value. But people report experiencing god. 
People report all sorts of scientifically unverifiable experiences.  God, being spooked, premonitions, sudden inspirations, regret etc.

Chance events - it is not possible to comprehend that the world is how it is due to random chance.  Your own personal experience of yourself is incomprehensibe as a series of completely random events. DO you seriously believe that the way you are today is the result of random permutation every split second since your conception? And that your conception itself was the result of previous countless ransom permutations since the Big Bang? No. Nobody does.  It is unbelievable and so nobody believes it.

Soren wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 10:44pm:

People report all sorts of scientifically unverifiable experiences.

People say the same thing about being abducted by aliens.  Do you believe in those too?  How about the hundreds of millions of Muslims who believe in Allah?  Or the hundreds of millions of Hindus that believe in Lord Krishna?


Soren wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 10:44pm:

DO you seriously believe that the way you are today is the result of random permutation every split second since your conception?

Are you talking about evolution here?  Because that is not a random process at all.

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:18pm:

Raven wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 7:05pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 2:03pm: This is what God's Holy Word has to say.... Psalm 14.1 The fool has said in his heart, there is no God. Psalm 14.2 God looks down from heaven to see if there are any that seek Him. Hence why in my original post in this topic, I stated that only God can make Himself known to you in a real way... but you have to seek Him and ask Him to. 1 Timothy 2:12 I'm not sure why certain people bring irrelevant and offtopic verses from the Holy Bible into discussions such as this. I find it most irritating and tantamount to trolling.

Lisa, hello. Not trolling simply quoting scripture. If you believe the bible to be the one true word of god then you have no business passing on your knowledge to many of us on this forum. For we are men and you are a woman.

You cannot take issue with this statement if you believe the bible to be the one true word of god, for that is what is written.

If you disagree then you can be classified as a cafeteria Christian, picking and choosing which scripture to follow.

Should this be the case then perhaps you consider the bible not to be the one true word of god.

And if the bible is not the one true word of god then we must take it with a pinch of salt. Something to refer to, but not the be all to end all.

Raven respects your belief, although he finds it misguided. Just as you may find Raven to be misguided.

All he wants is for you to question, not follow blindly lest you end up a sheep. Question those who claim the bible is the be all to end all.

Question those who claim to act in god's name, or those who say "it's 'god's' will" For they have no idea.

If god exists then he is far more advanced then us. You are more advanced then a cockroach, does a cockroach presume to know your will?

Stratos wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 10:56pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 14th, 2015 at 10:44pm: People report all sorts of scientifically unverifiable experiences. People say the same thing about being abducted by aliens.  Do you believe in those too?  How about the hundreds of millions of Muslims who believe in Allah?  Or the hundreds of millions of Hindus that believe in Lord Krishna?

I am not saying you have to believe the same thing anyone else believes. But people do report experiences and adhere to idea that are completely unbelievable to others.
To say that only those are right who think and believe exactly what you do is self-deluding. No-one can encompass all human experience and all truths.
Not even science because it is concerned only with material aspects of the world and that is not all, or even the mnost important aspect of human life and experience.

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 9:49am:

But people do report experiences and adhere to idea that are completely unbelievable to others.

I agree, and said as much.


Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 9:49am:

To say that only those are right who think and believe exactly what you do is self-deluding.

I agree.


Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 9:49am:

No-one can encompass all human experience and all truths.

I agree.

Soren, what you are providing are reasons as to why a deity could not be impossible, and I agree.  I really don't care if such a being is possible, but whether it is true.  Until evidence is provided I will continue to not believe in deities.  I would rather admit not knowing the truth than to believe in something that I have no evidence for.

I was very impressed with Francis Spufford's book Unapologetic.  Here is a vid of him introducing the book which I recommend very much as an illumination of what I think is the core of belief and emotion to many Christians and to which I am very, very sympathetic.  The book, as he says, 'expand one's range of sympathies'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwEe4c2bzVo



Here is a much longer vid from a series at St Paul's which is a condensation of many of the arguments in the book

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ci_zMyEr5Q

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 12:34pm:

Here is a vid of him introducing the book which I recommend very much as an illumination of what I think is the core of belief and emotion to many Christians and to which I am very, very sympathetic.

I'm listening to it now.  It does seem odd that right from the beginning he says that his religion doesn't believe in hell, and discounts his holy scriptures creation myth. 

I'll keep listening, thanks for the link Soren.

So he likes the feeling he gets when he's in a cathedral, and has guilt.

He really isn't making any argument, other than to say that because he personally feels it, it is reasonable.  Fair enough I guess. 

He really isn't describing anything which points towards Christianity however, and a LOT of what he says is contradictory to most of the christian sects. 

He freely admits that suffering and a loving God can't be reconciled.  In his version, hell doesn't exist and God doesn't need worship. 

Oh wow, he's doesn't claim to know if there is life after death?

Soren, what about his arguments did you find convincing, and if you don't mind sharing, what sort of God do you believe in?

Stratos wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 3:07pm:

So he likes the feeling he gets when he's in a cathedral, and has guilt. He really isn't making any argument, other than to say that because he personally feels it, it is reasonable.  Fair enough I guess.  He really isn't describing anything which points towards Christianity however, and a LOT of what he says is contradictory to most of the christian sects.  He freely admits that suffering and a loving God can't be reconciled.  In his version, hell doesn't exist and God doesn't need worship.  Oh wow, he's doesn't claim to know if there is life after death? Soren, what about his arguments did you find convincing, and if you don't mind sharing, what sort of God do you believe in?

The most convincing aspect for me is the ready acknowledgement of the messiness of his position and that it is a personal view.

It means that you too can have a personal view and when it comes to god, a personal view IS the only way to go.

You can swap insights with others but institutionalising personal views is not on the cards. He recalls Christianity to the  point where personal experiences were polled,shred, respected.
Peter, the holder of the Keys, denied Christ 3 times. There is plenty of room for idiosyncrasy, insight, creativity, undogmatic desire for human betterment (redemption).


I really like his idea of sin being the human propensity to f Vck things up. This is just so spot on, whether you are a Christian or not, that I think there is no improvement you can make on tjis insight for a couple of decades. It is an idea that needs a few decades to sink in and be digested.


MOST OF ALL I LIKE THE FACT THAT HIS VIEWS AND EXPLANATION DO NOT FIT INTO ANY IDEOLOGY. 

I get that Soren, but why do think this points to a deity?

Stratos wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 8:24pm:

I get that Soren, but why do think this points to a deity?

[i]What does it point to[/i if not a deity]?


I think the idea of a deity is stuck in the Olympian ideas of the Greeks. I do not think that the Christian idea of the deity is like that but because Christianity has grown out of Judaism and Greek philosophy, the Greek imagining has taken hold - it has a much richer and much more accessible and acceptable literary tradition behind it.
But in reality the Jewish imagination is much closer to the mark but most Westerners are ignorant of that imaginative landscape. The language of the NT is Greek philosophy (it is a text in Greek) but its imaginative landscape is Hebrew, Jewish, very largely inaccessible and alien to Western, Greco-Latin literature, art, imagination, mental horizons.

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 8:41pm:

[i]What does it point to[/i if not a deity]?

I don't jump to conclusions about this kind of thing Soren.  Like I said, I'd rather be honest and admit I don't know things than believe in a deity I have no proof of. 


Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 8:18pm:

The most convincing aspect for me is the ready acknowledgement of the messiness of his position and that it is a personal view.

So his lack of evidence and admittance of contradictions in belief is the best evidence that god exists?


Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 8:18pm:

It means that you too can have a personal view and when it comes to god, a personal view IS the only way to go.

Again this is a big issue.  If there is a deity, presumably with some supernatural or transcendent qualities, why would they only reveal themselves to people personally, especially when in the holy scriptures that we find them in, they are performing miracles left right and center? 

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 8:18pm:

Stratos wrote on Feb 15th, 2015 at 3:07pm: .....Soren, what about his arguments did you find convincing, and if you don't mind sharing, what sort of God do you believe in? ....It means that you too can have a personal view and when it comes to god, a personal view IS the only way to go. You can swap insights with others but institutionalising personal views is not on the cards. He recalls Christianity to the  point where personal experiences were polled,shared, respected. Peter, the holder of the Keys, denied Christ 3 times. There is plenty of room for idiosyncrasy, insight, creativity, undogmatic desire for human betterment (redemption).

In contrast, Pope Francis disagrees.

Pope Francis says Christians need the Catholic Church.


Google;
Pope Francis "personal relationship with jesus is dangerous"





Quote:

Church is essential for faith; there are no 'free agents,' pope says Cindy Wooden Catholic News Service  |  Jun. 25, 2014 Vatican City Christians are....made....in a community called the church, Pope Francis said. At his weekly general audience Wednesday, Pope Francis continued his series of audience talks about the church, telling an estimated 33,000 people that there is no such thing as "do-it-yourself" Christians or "free agents" when it comes to faith. Every Christian, he said, can trace his or her faith back to parents, grandparents, teachers or friends....

http://ncronline.org/blogs/francis-chronicles/church-essential-faith-there-are-no-free-agents-pope-says




Jesus said;

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18  I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19  Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20  At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21  He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.


John 4:24
God is a Spirit:...


John 10:30
I and my Father are one.


John 14:8
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?




1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17  If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


1 Corinthians 6:19
....know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?


2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17  Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18  And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.


Leviticus 20:24
...I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.


Leviticus 20:26
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.





Q.
Who is it, that redeems mankind who redeems his servants ?

A.
The one God, the God of Israel.


Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11  I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.






+++





Exodus 25:8
And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.


Exodus 29:45
And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.


Exodus 29:46
And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God.


Leviticus 11:44
For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy:....


Leviticus 19:2
Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.


Leviticus 20:26
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.


James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you....


i.e. Draw nigh to God's righteousness.

Yawns

Yadda, do you attend a church?

I really don't get people who don't believe in evolution.

Stratos wrote on Feb 18^th, 2015 at 9:45am:

Yadda, do you attend a church?

As a child i attended CofE infrequently.

As a child i attended CofE Sunday school infrequently.


I have 'given up' trying to find a 'physical' Church to attend.

The spirit/'conscience' [in me] has not encouraged me to join myself to any Church.

I cannot abide the official stance [i.e. the official doctrine] that many Christian Churches today, have towards the Jewish people and the nation of Israel.



I have fellowship with people, individuals, that i have found online.

I pray.

I meditate.

I fast [infrequently, not as often as i believe that i should].

And i try to read my Bible everyday.





Yadda said....

Quote:

A comment, There are many in this forum, over time, that have expressed their distaste for quotes from scripture. I will tell you something about God, and scripture, and spirits. God, SATAN, angels, and demons [evil angels], ...are spirits, ...and in my experience, they are real. Reading the Bible, imo, is a form of spiritual invocation. IMO, the words and thoughts expressed within the Bible, express [to me] the mind of our God. Reading those words and thoughts, exposes me to that spirit, the spirit, which i want to be influenced by. i.e. The spirit of God! It is that simple. IMO, people who hate the Bible [and some people do], are [knowingly, or unknowingly!] demonstrating their hatred for [the spirit of] God! It is that simple. Believe what you will. ...we all do!

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 18^th, 2015 at 9:55am:

I really don't get people who don't believe in evolution.

This is pretty much only a big deal in fundamentalist churches, where the majority of Australia's religions groups seem to be a bit more flexible.  The church I used to attend taught creation and anti-evolution.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 18^th, 2015 at 9:55am:

I really don't get people who don't believe in evolution.

I really don't get people who can't believe that they are spiritual beings, imprisoned within clay bodies.

Meditate.



Oh yeah.

Why would you do that boring thing, of sitting quietly?

When this world is here to constantly distract you.



p.s.
Meditating can be a dangerous thing to do!  ....spiritually.

In meditation, you can be inadvertently inviting spirits to 'interact' with what you are!

So BE CAREFUL!

Pray, and ask God to protect you.

Yadda wrote on Feb 18^th, 2015 at 10:23am:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 18th, 2015 at 9:55am: I really don't get people who don't believe in evolution. I really don't get people who can't believe that they are spiritual beings, imprisoned within clay bodies. Meditate. Oh yeah. Why would you do that boring thing, of sitting quietly? When this world is here to constantly distract you. p.s. Meditating can be a dangerous thing to do!  ....spiritually. In meditation, you can be inadvertently inviting spirits to 'interact' with what you are! So BE CAREFUL! Pray, and ask God to protect you.

My body is blood and bone and nerve etc. Wtf does clay come into it?

Yadda wrote on Feb 18^th, 2015 at 10:23am:

I really don't get people who can't believe that they are spiritual beings, imprisoned within clay bodies.

There is no reason you can't believe in God and evolution at the same time.  Many churches accept the scientific theory now.

Stratos wrote on Feb 18^th, 2015 at 1:34pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 18th, 2015 at 10:23am: I really don't get people who can't believe that they are spiritual beings, imprisoned within clay bodies. There is no reason you can't believe in God and evolution at the same time. Many churches accept the scientific theory now.

Oh.




The spirit within the Christian Churches today.


Malachi 3:13
Your words have been stout against me, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee?
14  Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?
15  And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
16  Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17  And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18  Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.





.




The spirit within Jesus.


Matthew 15:8
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.


Psalms 73:1
Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.
2  But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped.
3  For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
4  For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm.
5  They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other men.
6  Therefore pride compasseth them about as a chain; violence covereth them as a garment.
7  Their eyes stand out with fatness: they have more than heart could wish.
8  They are corrupt, and speak wickedly concerning oppression: they speak loftily.
9  They set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue walketh through the earth.
10  Therefore his people return hither: and waters of a full cup are wrung out to them.
11  And they say, How doth God know? and is there knowledge in the most High?
12  Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.
13  Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency.
14  For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning.
15  If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children.
16  When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
17  Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.
18  Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.
19  How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.
20  As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.
21  Thus my heart was grieved, and I was pricked in my reins.
22  So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.
23  Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24  Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25  Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.
26  My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.
27  For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.
28  But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.


Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11  I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Why not try having an original thought Yadda

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 18^th, 2015 at 9:12pm:

Why not try having an original thought Yadda

Your opinion of me, is that i am a herd animal, unable to deviate from the direction of the group ?

:)



Psalms 1:1
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.


John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:....





.




It is good it is a valuable skill to be able to meditate.

But imo, we should be careful [and also cultivate another skill too], about what it is, that we choose to be, the focus of our meditation.

e.g.
This world, has an alluring fascination for we humans.               :)

No ?

IMO, it is a fascination which so many of us have become mesmerised by.



Dictionary;
mesmerize  = = capture the whole attention of; fascinate or transfix.        hypnotize.

Yadda wrote on Feb 19^th, 2015 at 4:53am:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 18th, 2015 at 9:12pm: Why not try having an original thought Yadda Your opinion of me, is that i am a herd animal, unable to deviate from the direction of the group ? :) Psalms 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:.... . It is good it is a valuable skill to be able to meditate. But imo, we should be careful [and also cultivate another skill too], about what it is, that we choose to be, the focus of our meditation. e.g. This world, has an alluring fascination for we humans.               :) No ? IMO, it is a fascination which so many of us have become mesmerised by. Dictionary; mesmerize  = = capture the whole attention of; fascinate or transfix.        hypnotize.

No I'm saying a response that is just bible quotes, isnt a response.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 18^th, 2015 at 9:55am:

I really don't get people who don't believe in evolution.

;)

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2015 at 8:36am:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 18th, 2015 at 9:55am: I really don't get people who don't believe in evolution. ;)

You don't support the theory of evolution?  What lead you to that conclusion?

Stratos wrote on Feb 18^th, 2015 at 10:19am:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 18th, 2015 at 9:55am: I really don't get people who don't believe in evolution. This is pretty much only a big deal in fundamentalist churches, where the majority of Australia's religions groups seem to be a bit more flexible.  The church I used to attend taught creation and anti-evolution.

What type of church was that Stratos?

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 19^th, 2015 at 7:52pm:

What type of church was that Stratos?

Charismatic based Baptist Church.

Stratos wrote on Feb 19^th, 2015 at 8:05pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 19th, 2015 at 7:52pm: What type of church was that Stratos? Charismatic based Baptist Church.

I see. How long were you involved with them?

Stratos wrote on Feb 19^th, 2015 at 8:46am:

Soren wrote on Feb 19th, 2015 at 8:36am: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 18th, 2015 at 9:55am: I really don't get people who don't believe in evolution. ;) You don't support the theory of evolution?  What lead you to that conclusion?

Please explain your journey from 'believe' to 'support'.

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2015 at 8:11pm:

Please explain your journey from 'believe' to 'support'.

Well I didn't say believe, that was actually Mr Bus.

I would say that all the evidence suggests that life evolved.  I guess you could use the word "believe" in the same way that I also "believe" in other scientific theories such as the theory of gravity or the theory of relativity.

Well I use the term believe, because essentially evolution doesnt really give a poo, whether or not you accept/believe/support it or not.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20^th, 2015 at 8:16am:

Well I use the term believe, because essentially evolution doesnt really give a poo, whether or not you accept/believe/support it or not.

I am not asking whether evolution believes in evolution. I am asking you, to follow your very own expression, whether YOU BELIEVE evolution.

And if so, what do you base your BELIEF on.







Anyway. Your belief in evolution is no more 'rational' than religion because you understand evolution no more than religious people understand the mysteries.

Soren wrote on Feb 20^th, 2015 at 9:05pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 8:16am: Well I use the term believe, because essentially evolution doesnt really give a poo, whether or not you accept/believe/support it or not. I am not asking whether evolution believes in evolution. I am asking you, to follow your very own expression, whether YOU BELIEVE evolution. And if so, what do you base your BELIEF on. Anyway. Your belief in evolution is no more 'rational' than religion because you understand evolution no more than religious people understand the mysteries.

My belief is found in the evidence for evolution

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20^th, 2015 at 9:13pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:05pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 8:16am: Well I use the term believe, because essentially evolution doesnt really give a poo, whether or not you accept/believe/support it or not. I am not asking whether evolution believes in evolution. I am asking you, to follow your very own expression, whether YOU BELIEVE evolution. And if so, what do you base your BELIEF on. Anyway. Your belief in evolution is no more 'rational' than religion because you understand evolution no more than religious people understand the mysteries. My belief is found in the evidence for evolution

The THEORY of evolution you mean....with all its missing bits n pieces. Yes?

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 20^th, 2015 at 9:25pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:13pm: Soren wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:05pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 8:16am: Well I use the term believe, because essentially evolution doesnt really give a poo, whether or not you accept/believe/support it or not. I am not asking whether evolution believes in evolution. I am asking you, to follow your very own expression, whether YOU BELIEVE evolution. And if so, what do you base your BELIEF on. Anyway. Your belief in evolution is no more 'rational' than religion because you understand evolution no more than religious people understand the mysteries. My belief is found in the evidence for evolution The THEORY of evolution you mean....with all its missing bits n pieces. Yes?

Yes, but then the way you put theory in CAPITALS indicates that you have no idea what the term theory means in this context

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20^th, 2015 at 9:44pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:25pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:13pm: Soren wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:05pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 8:16am: Well I use the term believe, because essentially evolution doesnt really give a poo, whether or not you accept/believe/support it or not. I am not asking whether evolution believes in evolution. I am asking you, to follow your very own expression, whether YOU BELIEVE evolution. And if so, what do you base your BELIEF on. Anyway. Your belief in evolution is no more 'rational' than religion because you understand evolution no more than religious people understand the mysteries. My belief is found in the evidence for evolution The THEORY of evolution you mean....with all its missing bits n pieces. Yes? Yes, but then the way you put theory in CAPITALS indicates that you have no idea what the term theory means in this context

You think so?

I have no idea eh?

Perhaps I am afflicted by average intelligence. Well...I thought a scientific theory was knowledge which is subject to change. It's not a finished product so to speak.

Anything else you wish to add Professor Outrage Bus?

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 20^th, 2015 at 9:53pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:44pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:25pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:13pm: Soren wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:05pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 8:16am: Well I use the term believe, because essentially evolution doesnt really give a poo, whether or not you accept/believe/support it or not. I am not asking whether evolution believes in evolution. I am asking you, to follow your very own expression, whether YOU BELIEVE evolution. And if so, what do you base your BELIEF on. Anyway. Your belief in evolution is no more 'rational' than religion because you understand evolution no more than religious people understand the mysteries. My belief is found in the evidence for evolution The THEORY of evolution you mean....with all its missing bits n pieces. Yes? Yes, but then the way you put theory in CAPITALS indicates that you have no idea what the term theory means in this context You think so? I have no idea eh? Perhaps I am afflicted by average intelligence. Well...I thought a scientific theory was knowledge which is subject to change. It's not a finished product so to speak. Anything else you wish to add Professor Outrage Bus?

Not quite. Part way there. Its true its never a finished product, but the evidence we keep finding only adds to the theory of evolution, theres been no evidence found to contradict it.

But a theory is one which is a model, so to speak, that explains observed data, as more data is collected the theory is updated. E.g. gravity is a theory.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20^th, 2015 at 9:56pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:53pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:44pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:25pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:13pm: Soren wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:05pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 8:16am: Well I use the term believe, because essentially evolution doesnt really give a poo, whether or not you accept/believe/support it or not. I am not asking whether evolution believes in evolution. I am asking you, to follow your very own expression, whether YOU BELIEVE evolution. And if so, what do you base your BELIEF on. Anyway. Your belief in evolution is no more 'rational' than religion because you understand evolution no more than religious people understand the mysteries. My belief is found in the evidence for evolution The THEORY of evolution you mean....with all its missing bits n pieces. Yes? Yes, but then the way you put theory in CAPITALS indicates that you have no idea what the term theory means in this context You think so? I have no idea eh? Perhaps I am afflicted by average intelligence. Well...I thought a scientific theory was knowledge which is subject to change. It's not a finished product so to speak. Anything else you wish to add Professor Outrage Bus? Not quite. Part way there. Its true its never a finished product, but the evidence we keep finding only adds to the theory of evolution, theres been no evidence found to contradict it. But a theory is one which is a model, so to speak, that explains observed data, as more data is collected the theory is updated. E.g. gravity is a theory.

Actually,  I knew all that. It's just that my memory needed some refreshing.

Re gravity though... it's a law not a theory.

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 20^th, 2015 at 10:17pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:56pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:53pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:44pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:25pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:13pm: Soren wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:05pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 8:16am: Well I use the term believe, because essentially evolution doesnt really give a poo, whether or not you accept/believe/support it or not. I am not asking whether evolution believes in evolution. I am asking you, to follow your very own expression, whether YOU BELIEVE evolution. And if so, what do you base your BELIEF on. Anyway. Your belief in evolution is no more 'rational' than religion because you understand evolution no more than religious people understand the mysteries. My belief is found in the evidence for evolution The THEORY of evolution you mean....with all its missing bits n pieces. Yes? Yes, but then the way you put theory in CAPITALS indicates that you have no idea what the term theory means in this context You think so? I have no idea eh? Perhaps I am afflicted by average intelligence. Well...I thought a scientific theory was knowledge which is subject to change. It's not a finished product so to speak. Anything else you wish to add Professor Outrage Bus? Not quite. Part way there. Its true its never a finished product, but the evidence we keep finding only adds to the theory of evolution, theres been no evidence found to contradict it. But a theory is one which is a model, so to speak, that explains observed data, as more data is collected the theory is updated. E.g. gravity is a theory. Actually,  I knew all that.. it's just that my memory needed some refreshing. Re gravity though... it's a law not a theory.

How it acts on things is a law, its existence is a theory.

Laws differ from scientific theories in that they do not posit a mechanism or explanation of phenomena: they are merely distillations of the results of repeated observation.


So the fact gravity causes things to fall is a law. The reason why they fall is a theory.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20^th, 2015 at 10:21pm:

Laws differ from scientific theories in that they do not posit a mechanism or explanation of phenomena: they are merely distillations of the results of repeated observation. So the fact gravity causes things to fall is a law. The reason why they fall is a theory.

Yes. Thank you for refreshing my memory.

The problem I see with science is that it is theory dependent and theories change all the time. Now I know you're thinking that this is a good thing because change gets us closer to THE ANSWER so to speak. And I would totally agree with you on that point.

It's just that in doing so, the actual pathway or process of change is in essence one of uncertainty trying to attain certainty not really knowing if certainty will ever be attained. It leaves one wondering if we really know or CAN know anything at all.

Maybe, but all the evidence we collect merely strengths the case for evolution it doesnt weaken it.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20^th, 2015 at 10:40pm:

Maybe, but all the evidence we collect merely strengthens the case for evolution it doesn't weaken it.

Maybe eh? So you are uncertain also. You seem ok with such a stance.

Some of us are not ok with it though.

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 20^th, 2015 at 10:46pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 10:40pm: Maybe, but all the evidence we collect merely strengthens the case for evolution it doesn't weaken it. Maybe eh? So you are uncertain also. You seem ok with such a stance. Some of us are not ok with it though.

No, it was a dismissive maybe of your hand waving. I'm as certain of evolution as anything in my life.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20^th, 2015 at 10:51pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 10:46pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 10:40pm: Maybe, but all the evidence we collect merely strengthens the case for evolution it doesn't weaken it. Maybe eh? So you are uncertain also. You seem ok with such a stance. Some of us are not ok with it though. No, it was a dismissive maybe of your hand waving. I'm as certain of evolution as anything in my life.

Are you now? Do tell... what are you certain of in your life Professor Outrage Bus?

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 20^th, 2015 at 10:57pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 10:51pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 10:46pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 10:40pm: Maybe, but all the evidence we collect merely strengthens the case for evolution it doesn't weaken it. Maybe eh? So you are uncertain also. You seem ok with such a stance. Some of us are not ok with it though. No, it was a dismissive maybe of your hand waving. I'm as certain of evolution as anything in my life. Are you now? Do tell... what are you certain of in your life Professor Outrage Bus?

Evolution. Death, taxes, the stupidity of man.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20^th, 2015 at 10:59pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 10:57pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 10:51pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 10:46pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 10:40pm: Maybe, but all the evidence we collect merely strengthens the case for evolution it doesn't weaken it. Maybe eh? So you are uncertain also. You seem ok with such a stance. Some of us are not ok with it though. No, it was a dismissive maybe of your hand waving. I'm as certain of evolution as anything in my life. Are you now? Do tell... what are you certain of in your life Professor Outrage Bus? Evolution. Death, taxes, the stupidity of man.

I see.

I am certain of :

God, eternal life, taxes, the stupidity of man <---- & his finite mindedness & uncertainty where knowledge is concerned.

Your future seems rather lonely & bleak compared to mine.

vikaryan wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 6:50am:

Secularists: We’re Fine Without God, Thanks Re “Building Better Secularists” (column, Feb. 3): David Brooks says secular individuals have to build their own moral philosophies, while religious people inherit creeds that have evolved over centuries. Autonomous secular people are called upon to settle on their own individual sacred convictions. Secularists don’t have to “build” anything; we can choose moral philosophies from what’s already well tested. If religious people think that their “faith” excuses them from evaluating the duties and taboos handed down to them, they are morally obtuse. Does Mr. Brooks think that religious people are not “called upon to settle on their own individual sacred convictions”? Children may be excused for taking it on authority, but not adults. Mr. Brooks writes, “Religious people are motivated by their love for God and their fervent desire to please Him.” We secularists have no need for love of any imaginary being, since there is a bounty of real things in the world to love, and to motivate us: peace, justice, freedom, learning, music, art, science, nature, love and health, for instance. Our advice: Eliminate the middleman, and love the good stuff that we know is real. DANIEL C. DENNETT Medford, Mass. The writer, a professor of philosophy at Tufts University, is co-author of “Caught in the Pulpit: Leaving Belief Behind.” http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/05/opinion/secularists-were-fine-without-god-thanks.html?_r=0 How presumptuous of David Brooks to instruct us “secularists” on how to live the moral life. We have to build our own moral philosophies? Nonsense. I learned mine from my atheistic parents and from teachers throughout my education (not to mention Aristotle, Kant, Mill and the many other moral philosophers I studied). We have to reflect on spiritual matters? No, I reflect on the injustices in this world, why so many children in the United States go hungry, and why centuries of violence continue to persist in the name of religion. In place of the religious spiritual life, we atheists may be enraptured by a Beethoven symphony, moved by the poetry of Elizabeth Barrett Browning, enchanted by a Rembrandt portrait. We have to build our own Sabbaths? No, thanks; I’ll spend my secular weekends at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, attending a New York Philharmonic concert or rereading “A Theory of Justice,” by John Rawls. RUTH MACKLIN Bronx The writer is a professor of bioethics in the department of epidemiology and population health at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/05/opinion/secularists-were-fine-without-god-thanks.html?_r=0

I wonder when these so called intelligent men will own mankinds own shyte instead of trying to make out God doesn't exist by making out he doesn't intervene in mankinds stupidity and force a good outcome. If He did that life would not be worth living and we would not have a free will. We would just be mindless robots forced to act a certain way.

Either way you cut it Athiest rants about God are moot as they have no way of proving one doesn't exist at all.

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 20^th, 2015 at 11:12pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 10:59pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 10:57pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 10:51pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 10:46pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 10:40pm: Maybe, but all the evidence we collect merely strengthens the case for evolution it doesn't weaken it. Maybe eh? So you are uncertain also. You seem ok with such a stance. Some of us are not ok with it though. No, it was a dismissive maybe of your hand waving. I'm as certain of evolution as anything in my life. Are you now? Do tell... what are you certain of in your life Professor Outrage Bus? Evolution. Death, taxes, the stupidity of man. I see. I am certain of : God, eternal life, taxes, the stupidity of man <---- & his finite mindedness & uncertainty where knowledge is concerned. Your future seems rather lonely & bleak compared to mine.

Unlikely I find joy in just living

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 21^st, 2015 at 9:08pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 20th, 2015 at 11:12pm: I see. I am certain of : God, eternal life, taxes, the stupidity of man <---- & his finite mindedness & uncertainty where knowledge is concerned. Your future seems rather lonely & bleak compared to mine. Unlikely I find joy in just living

http://period7ap.wikispaces.com/file/view/gollum-n-the-ring.jpg/169633123/gollum-n-the-ring.jpg

Humanity lost

"My precious!"




.




I consider myself to be a stranger in a strange land.

I must i am compelled, to live in this world, every day.

But i do not consider myself to be 'at home' here.

I have not 'gone native' here.

Yadda