So, personally, I think people will always find "causes" or other people's ideas to interpret, reinterpret and misinterpret in order to justify their own heinous crimes against humanity.

It seems to be consistently argued that this is somehow ONLY the people of the Islamic faith....

Well then, some choice little snippets....

"Deuteronomy 20:17New International Version (NIV)

17 Completely destroy[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.

Footnotes:

Deuteronomy 20:17 The Hebrew term refers to the irrevocable giving over of things or persons to the Lord, often by totally destroying them."

Completely destroy them? Can there honestly be any doubt about what that means?

Oh dear.

It gets worse, cannibalism would also seem to be "God's will"...

"King James Bible
That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

That was a revelation I must say! Literally.

So, it would seem this concept of spreading the word by violence is not the sole preview of Islam. Given, it is reasonable to suggest that not ALL Christians behave in the ways they are directed to by the holy word I am more than a little bemused that, apparently the very similarly developed faith of Islam (apologies for any offense to Christians or Muslims, but, as an outsider, I do not recognise a huge philosophical difference between the Christian, Islamic or Jewish faiths) is the only one where ALL of its adherents follow the words literally.

Remarkably enough, if this stuff didn't all revolve around killing, mutilating, annihilating and (apparently) eating those who disagree with some words on paper (as it were) - then it would be kind of funny to point out that, if, as many here seem to suggest, Islam is the only religion that is followed literally - it would seem then to be the only actually successful religion.

This is an appalling idea, for my part, no organised religion after all is successful at anything other than utilising a framework of ideas (some are pretty good ideas too) to exert unrestrained power and control over masses of people. It may be a newsflash to some, but this is bad.

Do you think those Aussie Muslims who have traveled to the middle east to participate in the Muslim rape and pillage festival did so because of Islam, or was Islam merely the convenient excuse they picked up along the way?

freediver wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 5:51pm:

Do you think those Aussie Muslims who have traveled to the middle east to participate in the Muslim rape and pillage festival did so because of Islam, or was Islam merely the convenient excuse they picked up along the way?

Yes

Do you think those people though should learn to take some personal responsibility?

Do you blame the religion for the choices individuals make?

FD, if you are going to put "or" into a question, don't you think it should represent two different questions?

Or... Do you think the Christian religion has examples encouraging people to commit heinous acts?

freediver wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 5:51pm:

Do you think those Aussie Muslims who have traveled to the middle east to participate in the Muslim rape and pillage festival did so because of Islam, or was Islam merely the convenient excuse they picked up along the way?

You forgot the plunder part FD, as long as Allah gets his 20% cut it's ok to steal their wealth after killing the men and enslaving the women and children.

quran.com/8/41

Phemanderac wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 4:14pm:

Or... Do you think the Christian religion has examples encouraging people to commit heinous acts?

remembering that these worthy books like the Bible were translated many years ago from old lost languages..

is it at all possible that the word EAT of flesh had a different meaning or was translated badly.. it could have been awe of flesh which has a different meaning in our times...

I think if everyone took the bible on face value they would be doing themselves a disservice.....

the word bond is also there... do we still use that word when we employ someone.???

goodness me were the 10 Commandments written in English...

after all it tells us..

thou shalt not kill..

does that mean if we eat each other or the horse they are alive when we do so. ::)

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 4:32pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2015 at 5:51pm: Do you think those Aussie Muslims who have traveled to the middle east to participate in the Muslim rape and pillage festival did so because of Islam, or was Islam merely the convenient excuse they picked up along the way? You forgot the plunder part FD, as long as Allah gets his 20% cut it's ok to steal their wealth after killing the men and enslaving the women and children. quran.com/8/41

I thought the 70 viorgins was a good enough reason to rape and pillage.

Phemanderac wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 4:13pm:

FD, if you are going to put "or" into a question, don't you think it should represent two different questions?

Silly me. I thought common sense might get you through it.

Silly you, because if Islam and Islam being a convenient excuse are simply two different ways to say the same thing...

Silly you indeed.

Do you understand the distinction between motivation and excuse/justification?

Phemanderac,

Why would you believe that cannibalism is allowed or encouraged, by the God of the OT bible ???



Phemanderac wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 1:01pm:

Remarkably enough, if this stuff didn't all revolve around killing, mutilating, annihilating and (apparently) eating those who disagree with some words on paper (as it were) - then it would be kind of funny to point out that, if, as many here seem to suggest, Islam is the only religion that is followed literally - it would seem then to be the only actually successful religion.

Phemanderac wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 1:01pm:

It gets worse, cannibalism would also seem to be "God's will"... "King James Bible That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

Cannibalism ???

Revelation 19:17
And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18  That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.




Phemanderac,

There is no sanction given by the God of the bible, which allows or encourages cannibalism.

I suggest, that instead of doing a COPY & PASTE, off an antiChristian sites,    you should read your bible.



I would suggest, that before PUBLICLY DISPLAYING YOUR OWN IGNORANCE AND ERROR, TO EVERYONE WHO READS YOUR POSTS,    you should read your bible first.



Phemanderac,

These words are for YOU;


The word,
           ignorance
comes from the root;
           to ignore


Dictionary;
ignore = = disregard intentionally.     fail to consider (something significant).



Dictionary;
ignorant, ignorance = =
1 lacking knowledge or awareness in general.     uninformed about or unaware of a specific subject or fact.
2 discourteous.
3 easily angered.

Phemanderac,

Why would you believe that violence against disbelievers [non-Hebrews], is sanctioned or encouraged, by the God of the OT bible ???




You are totally mistaken.



Phemanderac wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 1:01pm:

"Deuteronomy 20:17New International Version (NIV) 17 Completely destroy[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. ..... ..... So, it would seem this concept of spreading the word by violence is not the sole preview of Islam. Given, it is reasonable to suggest that not ALL Christians behave in the ways they are directed to by the holy word I am more than a little bemused that, apparently the very similarly developed faith of Islam (apologies for any offense to Christians or Muslims, but,

Phemanderac,

You are mistaken.

Spreading ISLAM, by violence and the sword, is the sole 'preview' of ISLAM -    and was not sanctioned in the religion of ancient Israel, or of Christians !!!


As the bible itself testifies.....
The ancient Hebrews HAD NO SANCTION FROM THEIR GOD TO MURDER OR TO HARM, THOSE WHO WERE NOT HEBREWS.

+++

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him...

Exodus 23:9
Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger...

Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34  But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself...

n.b.
.....and thou shalt love him as thyself

Leviticus 25:47-49
[these verses clearly speak of [and reveal that it was entirely 'lawful'] for Hebrews [themselves] to become bond servants [slaves], to prosperous strangers living among the Hebrews.]

Deuteronomy 1:16
And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

Deuteronomy 10:17-19
For the LORD your God... loveth the stranger, ...Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 24:17
Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:
18  But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

Deuteronomy 27:19
Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger...

+++








Phemanderac wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 1:01pm:

.....as an outsider, I do not recognise a huge philosophical difference between the Christian, Islamic or Jewish faiths) is the only one where ALL of its adherents follow the words literally.

Phemanderac,

Why do you equate the morality of ISLAM and Christianity ?

You are totally mistaken.

There is no sanction given by either the God of the Hebrews [or to be found within the OT bible], which promotes violence against disbelievers [non-Hebrews].

IN FACT THE THE GOD OF THE HEBREWS SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITS SUCH VIOLENCE AGAINST NON-HEBREWS.

n.b.
COVENANT BREAKERS and SERIOUS CRIMINALS, were the only groups of people, which the Hebrews had a lawful sanction to kill [given by their God].


Phemanderac,

Those nations and peoples, the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, were ordered to be totally destroyed, by the God of the Hebrews, for a completely different reason.

It was because those nations practised widespread injustice, violence against innocent people, filicide and child killing.

Deuteronomy 12:29
When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;
30  Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
31  Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.




Phemanderac,

I suggest, that instead of doing a COPY & PASTE, off an antiChristian sites,    you should read your bible.



I would suggest, that before PUBLICLY DISPLAYING YOUR OWN IGNORANCE AND ERROR, TO EVERYONE WHO READS YOUR POSTS,    you should read your bible first.



Phemanderac,

These words are for YOU;


The word,
           ignorance
comes from the root;
           to ignore


Dictionary;
ignore = = disregard intentionally.     fail to consider (something significant).



Dictionary;
ignorant, ignorance = =
1 lacking knowledge or awareness in general.     uninformed about or unaware of a specific subject or fact.
2 discourteous.
3 easily angered.

Phemanderac wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 4:14pm:

Or... Do you think the Christian religion has examples encouraging people to commit heinous acts?

This is one of the stock-standard arguments of apologists for, and defenders of Islam. It is relativism and is not of much use to anyone. It is true that Christianity has been used in this way, the IRA and Protestants in Ireland come to mind. But that does not change the reality of so called world wide Jihad since the 1990s which kills people in the street when ever it gets the chance. By comparison Christian violence looks like kindergarten. And as I have said before, you will change your tune when someone close to you becomes a victim of Islam.

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 7:32pm:

Do you understand the distinction between motivation and excuse/justification?

I do, are you at all aware of the common denominator though?

issuevoter wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 10:59pm:

Phemanderac wrote on Jul 6th, 2015 at 4:14pm: Or... Do you think the Christian religion has examples encouraging people to commit heinous acts? This is one of the stock-standard arguments of apologists for, and defenders of Islam. It is relativism and is not of much use to anyone. It is true that Christianity has been used in this way, the IRA and Protestants in Ireland come to mind. But that does not change the reality of so called world wide Jihad since the 1990s which kills people in the street when ever it gets the chance. By comparison Christian violence looks like kindergarten. And as I have said before, you will change your tune when someone close to you becomes a victim of Islam.

That's not a "defense" it is merely a question...

Further to that, I have not defended or justified abhorrent behaviour regardless of the excuse that it has occurred under...

Relativism, just by the by, is a two way street, ironically, the slathering detractors of all things Islamic are some of the greatest practitioners of relativism... Or did you not realise that when you made your error?

People will stoop to any available excuse they believe that they can manipulate to justify the unjustifiable.

ALL acts of terrorism are acts of base evil, there is no distinction here, ALL acts - and the individual is, ultimately responsible, because it is the individual who chose to act...

I am amazed that people who profess to be adults have absolutely zero understanding of how they make choices.... As if it is someone else's responsibility.

The reality of world wide jihad eh?

Curious thing that, Jihad first became an issue of violent significance during the Crusades, irony is a beautiful thing is it not?

Phemanderac wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 4:11pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2015 at 7:32pm: Do you understand the distinction between motivation and excuse/justification? I do, are you at all aware of the common denominator though?

Correlation is not causation Phem. Let me guess, they share this "common denominator" with people who also refrain from rape and pillage?

Back to the original question - is Islam the motivation for these people joining the rape and pillage festival, or just an excuse?

freediver wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 9:35pm:

Phemanderac wrote on Jul 7th, 2015 at 4:11pm: freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2015 at 7:32pm: Do you understand the distinction between motivation and excuse/justification? I do, are you at all aware of the common denominator though? Correlation is not causation Phem. Let me guess, they share this "common denominator" with people who also refrain from rape and pillage?

Close, in point of fact, we ALL share this common denominator, however, this entire debate revolves around our inability to own and take responsibility for it. In fact, and possibly worse, you (and a few others) assist those in not taking responsibility by validating their excuses....

I wonder if that gets you any closer to the correct answer....

It is one simple word really.

As to your question you keep returning to, I answered it, even as the double bunger (tautology) version you used....

One simple word, that's all you need to come up with. Good luck with the challenge.

I think you've got it backwards. 

When someone has true beliefs to anchor them, they are far less likely to be swayed by silly propaganda.  People without beliefs of their own can be made to support anything.  They are empty vessels just waiting to be filled. 

This applies equally to westerners whos only "belief" is whatever drum the media is beating at the time, as it does to dirt poor arabs who are convinced to blow themselves up in the name of Allah.

Each one of us [every human being], responds to the motivating influences which we are exposed to.

And in turn, we 'give power' [in the world] to those motivating influences, which we choose to be influenced by.

[And those motivating influences also have an influence upon our psyche, imo]

And because we [persons] act and make choices in this world [based upon motivating influences which we have 'chosen'], those motivating influences which we choose to pursue [in the world], must, and do, have a material effect upon our immediate surroundings [in this world].



And this effect [of the influences we choose to 'give power' to], is the same, for the many different cultures of man, around the world.

Each [different] nation around the world [AND THE PARTICULAR 'CULTURE' OF THEIR PEOPLES] have been influenced [throughout their history], by the predominant motivating influences which each different culture has chosen to embrace,      and chosen to give their 'power' [in the world] to.




We are the victims of our surroundings, but also, we are the victims of our own nature [and in consequence, WE WILL BE THE 'VICTIMS' OUR OWN GOOD OR POOR CHOICES].

Throughout our lives, the things [and the influences which] we choose, will have a significant influence upon our surroundings [and 'circumstances'].



.



Matthew 12:35
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.


Luke 6:43
For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
44  For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
45  A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

... wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 9:41am:

I think you've got it backwards.  When someone has true beliefs to anchor them, they are far less likely to be swayed by silly propaganda. People without beliefs of their own can be made to support anything. They are empty vessels just waiting to be filled.  This applies equally to westerners whos only "belief" is whatever drum the media is beating at the time, as it does to dirt poor arabs who are convinced to blow themselves up in the name of Allah.

No argument!

... wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 9:41am:

When someone has true beliefs

As opposed to when someone has false beliefs?

Who is the arbiter of what is true and what is false with regards to beliefs?

Beliefs, by their very nature and reliance on "faith" are not necessarily based in truth. Therein lieth the problem with beliefs. Even in the face of solid evidence the "true believers" will maintain their position and deride, ridicule, denounce, lie and smear those whose facts may undermine their "beliefs"....

There are beliefs and there are truths and they are by no means consistently on the same page...

... wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 9:41am:

People without beliefs of their own can be made to support anything.  They are empty vessels just waiting to be filled.

That would be filled by someone else's beliefs, which they then adopt as their own...

Seriously, is there something wrong with just having ideas and then exploring their validity?

Phemanderac wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 4:45pm:

Seriously, is there something wrong with just having ideas and then exploring their validity?

Absolutely not, but you may find something very wrong if you dare speak your findings out loud. 

... wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 9:41am:

I think you've got it backwards.  When someone has true beliefs to anchor them, they are far less likely to be swayed by silly propaganda.  People without beliefs of their own can be made to support anything.  They are empty vessels just waiting to be filled.  This applies equally to westerners whos only "belief" is whatever drum the media is beating at the time, as it does to dirt poor arabs who are convinced to blow themselves up in the name of Allah.

But one has to acknowledge that those Muslims who have been ready to kill people in the street in some form of suicide mission have often been somewhat educated people and not really poor.

freediver wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 5:51pm:

Do you think those Aussie Muslims who have traveled to the middle east to participate in the Muslim rape and pillage festival did so because of Islam, or was Islam merely the convenient excuse they picked up along the way?

Again, not a thing that only Arab peoples do. The history of the west is repleat with instances of rape and plunder done  under the guise of religion

... wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 9:41am:

I think you've got it backwards.  When someone has true beliefs to anchor them, they are far less likely to be swayed by silly propaganda.  People without beliefs of their own can be made to support anything.  They are empty vessels just waiting to be filled.  This applies equally to westerners whos only "belief" is whatever drum the media is beating at the time, as it does to dirt poor arabs who are convinced to blow themselves up in the name of Allah.

sounds reasonable..

almost everyone is offered a REWARD to do whatever...

I am not sure what they expect to get from 70 virgins.. but it seems to work..

western mercenaries dont do it for love of the "climate"...

we are all sold on something...even if its not believing we still believe we are right and everyone else is wrong...

trying to solve what makes everyone tick  is like trying to solve the universe........ whats the point?..there is no one answer.

issuevoter wrote on Jul 8^th, 2015 at 8:53pm:

... wrote on Jul 8th, 2015 at 9:41am: I think you've got it backwards.  When someone has true beliefs to anchor them, they are far less likely to be swayed by silly propaganda.  People without beliefs of their own can be made to support anything.  They are empty vessels just waiting to be filled.  This applies equally to westerners whos only "belief" is whatever drum the media is beating at the time, as it does to dirt poor arabs who are convinced to blow themselves up in the name of Allah. But one has to acknowledge that those Muslims who have been ready to kill people in the street in some form of suicide mission have often been somewhat educated people and not really poor.

I don't now if that's true or not, but if so it's paralleleled here in the west where the biggest ideologues are also somewhat educated.

freediver wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 9:35pm:

Phemanderac wrote on Jul 7th, 2015 at 4:11pm: freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2015 at 7:32pm: Do you understand the distinction between motivation and excuse/justification? I do, are you at all aware of the common denominator though? Correlation is not causation Phem. Let me guess, they share this "common denominator" with people who also refrain from rape and pillage? Back to the original question - is Islam the motivation for these people joining the rape and pillage festival, or just an excuse?

There are plenty of people involved in the Syrian civil war who aren’t Muslims, FD. There were plenty of people who fought for the Bosnians in the Balkans war who weren’t Muslims too.

David Hicks was one - prior to his conversion.

Quote:

Close, in point of fact, we ALL share this common denominator, however, this entire debate revolves around our inability to own and take responsibility for it. In fact, and possibly worse, you (and a few others) assist those in not taking responsibility by validating their excuses....

You are confused. I do no validate their excuses.


Quote:

As to your question you keep returning to, I answered it, even as the double bunger (tautology) version you used....

It is only a tautaology if you are incapable of seeing the difference.


Quote:

Again, not a thing that only Arab peoples do. The history of the west is repleat with instances of rape and plunder done  under the guise of religion

What is your point spartacus? Care to answer the question? Do you think those Aussie Muslims who have traveled to the middle east to participate in the Muslim rape and pillage festival did so because of Islam, or was Islam merely the convenient excuse they picked up along the way? Are they doing it because they are Muslims, or because they are genetically prediposed to it?


Quote:

trying to solve what makes everyone tick  is like trying to solve the universe........ whats the point?..there is no one answer.

There is a point if you think it is worthwhile trying to stop Aussie Muslims traveling overseas to participate in the rape and pillage festival. Saying we cannot discuss it because that somehow destroys individual responsibility, or saying that it is only because they are human then wandering off and getting stoned... is pointless.


Quote:

There are plenty of people involved in the Syrian civil war who aren’t Muslims, FD.

How many of them bought their own plane ticket amd come from western Sydney? Do you think those Aussie Muslims who have traveled to the middle east to participate in the Muslim rape and pillage festival did so because of Islam, or was Islam merely the convenient excuse they picked up along the way?