...they are just not sure which ones or under what circumstances.

From the Islamic texts:

Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.

Al Tirmidhi: Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver.

Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death.

Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man should not look at the private parts of another man, and a woman should not look at the private parts of another woman. A man should not lie with another man without wearing lower garment under one cover; and a woman should not be lie with another woman without wearing lower garment under one cover.

Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man should not lie with another man and a woman should not lie with another woman without covering their private parts except a child or a father. He also mentioned a third thing which I forgot.

AbuDawud said: From here I remembered this tradition from Mu'ammil and Musa: Beware! No man should lie with another man, no woman should lie with another woman except with one's child or father. He also mentioned a third which I have forgotten...

Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) cursed the man who dressed like a woman and the woman who dressed like a man.

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: Ibn AbuMulaykah told that when someone remarked to Aisha that a woman was wearing sandals, she replied: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) cursed mannish women.

From a recent thread, where Gandalf spent about ten pages trying to justify not talking about this and blaming me for 'tricking him' into joining the discussion, and also from a thread from last year where Gandalf offered up several interpretations of Muhammed's command to execute gays. And before Gandalf gets all wound wound up again - I apologise, it was wrong of me to suggest that Gandalf had only taken one position on this issue.


freediver wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 11:21am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 5th, 2015 at 10:51am: freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2015 at 8:42am: Have you figured out yet who those Aussie Muslims would be raping and slaughtering if they were no Muslims? Quote: He said it's not alright to kill gays for being gays, FD. Thanks for clarifying Karnal. Can you quote him? From the same thread FD: [quote]And yet it wasn't a call to execute homosexuals. Why do you think he described them in the terms "doing as Lot's people did"? Do you think sodomy was unheard of in pre-islamic times that he had to make this reference? Do you think everyone at that time referred to sodomy as "doing as Lot's people did"? You demand a literal interpretation of the texts - well this is it - in literal terms, he is not calling for homosexuals to be executed, he is calling for people who did "as Lot's people did" to be executed - which included sodomy and debauchery, robbery, rape and generally flaunted God's laws. Its a whole package. Would you agree thats saying its not alright to kill gays for being gays? Please, feel free to spin this quote beyond all meaning - we all know you want to.

So it is not OK to kill gays, but it is OK if you kill gays, rapists, thieves, debaucherers etc? You are not allowed to discriminate in who you kill?

From the other thread:


polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 10^th, 2014 at 12:44pm:

I'm not sure FD.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 10^th, 2014 at 1:54pm:

By the description, Muhammad is clearly talking about an act of sodomy, but is it necessarily any act of sodomy? In my view, the case has not been conclusively made.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 10^th, 2014 at 7:40pm:

FD he's obviously talking about sodomy. But the argument has been made (not by me) that he is only talking about sodomy that is borne out of lust and debauchery - not from genuine love and commitment. You've got to admit there is a legitimate question about why he refers to it as "anyone doing as Lot's people did" as opposed to simply saying "anyone who commits sodomy" Also, the quranic verses referring to Lot's people only refers to sodomy in the context of lust, no mention of sodomy in the context of genuine love and devotion.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 11^th, 2014 at 11:43am:

You could argue that the Quran would only ever describe sodomy in negative terms - fair enough. Its just a point of view though, equally as valid as saying that the Quran deliberately makes a distinction between "acceptable" and "unacceptable" types of sodomy.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 11^th, 2014 at 4:58pm:

So I ask, if mainstream muslims allow themselves to be fooled by so called "scholars" who take the longest stretch you can imagine in their interpretation of islamic texts to propogate their misogyny and intolerance and call it "islamic law" - I reckon its fair enough to take the same sort of liberties with things like homosexuality. Thats a crude way of putting it, but I hope you get my point.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 14^th, 2014 at 3:04pm:

The issue here is you taking my argument that The Prophet's ruling on those that did "as Lot's people did" may not necessarily be a ruling against homosexuality per se

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 14^th, 2014 at 6:31pm:

I'm quite happy to "own" the argument that The Prophet's ruling there may not necessarily be a ruling against homosexuality per se - like I've been saying all along. Exactly what did you think I was disowning FD?

Have you made up your mind yet Gandalf? Perhaps Muhammed meant you should kill Robin Hood. He was a taker and a giver.

Is it fair for me to take the same sort of liberties with what you say?

This is how you left the other thread:


freediver wrote on Jun 14^th, 2014 at 6:47pm:

So you don't actually know? What happened to all your a priori knowledge?

[/quote]

What's the alternative FD? -

ignoring the word of God!

You left out G’s Mardi Gras quotes, FD. I think that’s a crucial part of this discussion.

Would you care to post them?

The alternative to killing gay people is not killing gay people.

freediver wrote on Jul 18^th, 2015 at 2:37pm:

The alternative to killing gay people is not killing gay people.

But what is the final solution of the question of homosexuals?

Want to execute gays?

Saudi Arabia executes gays by chopping their heads off.
Iran hangs gays,Ahmadinejad said there are no poofs in Iran.
The Islamic State throws gays from tall buildings while blindfolded,if they survive the fall they are stoned to death.

Did moderate Malaysia throw the politician Anwar Ibrahim in jail for sodomy?

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 18^th, 2015 at 3:15pm:

Want to execute gays? Saudi Arabia executes gays by chopping their heads off. Iran hangs gays,Ahmadinejad said there are no poofs in Iran. The Islamic State throws gays from tall buildings while blindfolded,if they survive the fall they are stoned to death. Did moderate Malaysia throw the politician Anwar Ibrahim in jail for sodomy?

Homosexuals are sick people who need to be helped
to recover from their disgusting, revolting perversions:


http://s25.postimg.org/lfi6evwjj/image.jpg

Homosexuality in the bible.



    You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. (NKJ, Leviticus 18:22)

    If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them. (NKJ, Leviticus 20:13)

For the record, Gandalf never said he believed Islam ordains the killing of people because they are gay. Not once. 'Mardi gras' style or otherwise.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 18^th, 2015 at 5:56pm:

For the record, Gandalf never said he believed Islam ordains the killing of people because they are gay. Not once. 'Mardi gras' style or otherwise.

But G, how do you explain FD's evidence right here?


Quote:

...a thread from last year where Gandalf offered up several interpretations of Muhammed's command to execute gays.

We all know what those interpretations were, G. Don't play coy with us.

freediver wrote on Jul 18^th, 2015 at 2:17pm:

from a thread from last year where Gandalf offered up several interpretations of Muhammed's command to execute gays.

And yet when FD "summarises" Gandalf's argument a year later, it was all so simple - gandalf thinks gays should be executed for flaunting 'mardi gras style'. Curious that there was no suggestion of such a mish-mash of contradictory thoughts when FD offered this succinct summary of Gandalf's view on the matter.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 18^th, 2015 at 5:56pm:

For the record, Gandalf never said he believed Islam ordains the killing of people because they are gay. Not once. 'Mardi gras' style or otherwise.

Have you made your mind up yet Gandalf?

freediver wrote on Jul 18^th, 2015 at 6:20pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 18th, 2015 at 5:56pm: For the record, Gandalf never said he believed Islam ordains the killing of people because they are gay. Not once. 'Mardi gras' style or otherwise. Have you made your mind up yet Gandalf?

I doubt it, FD. G seems torn between condoning gay marriage and blowing up the Mardi Gras.

Stay away from G, Bobbie. These "moderate" Muslims are far more dangerous than the head hackers.

freediver wrote on Jul 18^th, 2015 at 6:20pm:

Have you made your mind up yet Gandalf?

Why would I need to - when you are always on hand to make it up for me?

I guess there is no point deciding now, seeing as there is no chance of you being able to follow through.

freediver wrote on Jul 18^th, 2015 at 8:22pm:

I guess there is no point deciding now, seeing as there is no chance of you being able to follow through.

The giver or the taker?

The idea is not new:

http://www.holocaust.com.au/mm/nonjewish.htm



Quote:

Homosexuals The Nazis' persecution of homosexuals met with wide approval from the German population. Homosexuality had been classified as a criminal act in Germany for hundreds of years and the Nazis took ruthless action against those found 'guilty' of it. They saw homosexuality as a threat to German morality, military strength and the purity and procreation of the Aryan race. In 1934 Nazis shot dead their own leader, Ernst Roehm, who was openly gay. A special criminal police force was created to fight homosexuality and in 1943 Himmler issued a secret order to execute all SS and police found to be gay or even guilty of "homosexual intent". From 1935 onwards the slightest sign of homosexual tendencies was punished. Waves of arrests and trials followed and between 1936 and 1939, 42 919 men were sentenced. Between 1941 and 1944 there were another 12 000 indictments and the military police convicted 7000 homosexual soldiers. In total, the number of males convicted of homosexuality is estimated to be 60 000. As early as 1933 German homosexuals had been offered the alternatives of castration or being sent to a concentration camp. In the camps they were identified by pink triangles and condemned to hard labour. The policy was to separate and try to 're-educate' them, and if this failed, then to kill them. In attempts to 'cure them of their disease', many homosexuals were subjected to horrible pseudo-medical experiments, including chemical injections and operations. It has been estimated that the death rate of homosexuals in the camps was as high as 60%. Homosexual survivors were not compensated after the war, as their behaviour was still largely regarded by German society as perverted and illegal and their suffering therefore 'justified'.

Friedrich Althoff, arrested for alleged
homosexuality in Dusseldorf, Germany, 1939
http://www.holocaust.com.au/mm/images/non_jewpic2.gif