I've been hearing a few reports on PTSD, soldier suicide and homeless vets.

It probably doesn't surprise people to hear that I am a strong opponent of our overseas military ventures, and I certainly won't begrudge the right for people defending their land to attack our soldiers against aggression.

That said, it is their job and they put their lives on the line for their country. In view of this I think the current pay and benefits and support these soldiers receive from the country they believe they are defending, is an absolute disgrace. If we are to be a society that relies on young men and women killing and being killed in foreign lands - mostly who pose no threat to Australia - then I believe these men and women should be paid a fortune - the highest possible pay grade for a public servant. But not just that, we should give them the best possible support when they return: fully paid for comfortable accommodation, all health benefits covered (this may already be the case). Critically, also, they must have access to 24-7 support in their battle against PTSD (which I guarantee will affect 100% of all vets - in varying degrees) - a fully paid for personal psychologist/therapist available to them 24-7 would be the bare minimum I would think.

The hypocricy of our political class who demand total reverence for our soldiers in time of war - but abandon them when they return, allowing them to self destruct from PTSD. For me, the cutting of defense personnel pay at the same time as the government announced the planned construction of a $100 million dollar white elephant in France, was what made me sit up and pay attention to this. Then I started hearing about the rampant suicide of vets, lives being destroyed by PTSD and even homelessness. What a disgrace.

It's alright Gandalf. The right wing fanatical war loving denizens of Ozpolitic will offer to take these veterans into their homes. Swagman, Herbert, Gizmo, longweekend58, Rhino, Lisa Jones, Bogarde, Lionel Idriess, Red Baron, Baron Von Rort, UnsubRocky, Double Plus Good and others of their ilk will step up.

Fat chance!

I'm frankly astonished that there doesn't seem to be any noise about this - especially from the right.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 8:35pm:

I'm frankly astonished that there doesn't seem to be any noise about this - especially from the right.

I am not from the left or right I am centrist.

PTSD is a new age disorder like ADHD.
Back in WW1 none of the returning soldiers had PTSD it hadn't been invented.

Did this guy look like he had PTSD when he returned?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Jacka

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 8:08pm:

It's alright Gandalf. The right wing fanatical war loving denizens of Ozpolitic will offer to take these veterans into their homes. Swagman, Herbert, Gizmo, longweekend58, Rhino, Lisa Jones, Bogarde, Lionel Idriess, and others of their ilk will step up. Fat chance!

I feel like I know you. If not on a personal level, perhaps your tone, ideology, sentence structure, vocabulary and grammar, mark you as someone I am familiar with.

If not, please forgive me, for I have mistaken you for another - of 'your ilk'.

You, on the other hand, know nothing of me, other than a preconceived notion elicited by my online persona. More fool you!

You know nothing of my connections and interactions with veterans, and I feel no need to elaborate on them.

You are Unforgiven, right?

I can see how that works - on so many levels.

Superficially supportive - in reality a lot of smarmy crap from a bunch of chairborne warriors with no idea - and with no idea how the troops actually feel about being handed the sort of smiling crap handed out.

I'm awaiting the time when I discuss with a relative her work in that field - and tell her that diggers I know say it is all crap, but they do it for the chance of getting their entitlements.  It's called 'jumping through the hoops' and more money is spent on that rubbish than actually supporting troops in need.

A Korean War Vet said it all:- "They all had these jackets with the leather patches on the elbows and all the right words, and not one of them wasn't taking money under false pretences."

In my experience the nurses are better and know more...

Anyone got any questions?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 7:53pm:

I've been hearing a few reports on PTSD, soldier suicide and homeless vets. It probably doesn't surprise people to hear that I am a strong opponent of our overseas military ventures, and I certainly won't begrudge the right for people defending their land to attack our soldiers against aggression. That said, it is their job and they put their lives on the line for their country. In view of this I think the current pay and benefits and support these soldiers receive from the country they believe they are defending, is an absolute disgrace. If we are to be a society that relies on young men and women killing and being killed in foreign lands - mostly who pose no threat to Australia - then I believe these men and women should be paid a fortune - the highest possible pay grade for a public servant. But not just that, we should give them the best possible support when they return: fully paid for comfortable accommodation, all health benefits covered (this may already be the case). Critically, also, they must have access to 24-7 support in their battle against PTSD (which I guarantee will affect 100% of all vets - in varying degrees) - a fully paid for personal psychologist/therapist available to them 24-7 would be the bare minimum I would think. The hypocricy of our political class who demand total reverence for our soldiers in time of war - but abandon them when they return, allowing them to self destruct from PTSD. For me, the cutting of defense personnel pay at the same time as the government announced the planned construction of a $100 million dollar white elephant in France, was what made me sit up and pay attention to this. Then I started hearing about the rampant suicide of vets, lives being destroyed by PTSD and even homelessness. What a disgrace.

The Armed Forces are non-political - they don't get to choose where they will be sent to fight in the 'national interest'... they only get, as individuals.. to take the consequences personally... and far too often those individuals are isolated and feel it.

A 101st Airborne trooper said it all in 1969... "Our hearts are pure, brothers - it's the politicians who've screwed us all."

I had a mate commit suicide.... he could have called.... picked up the phone and we'd have been there.... few drinks and a bit of company and understanding...

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 8:48pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:35pm: I'm frankly astonished that there doesn't seem to be any noise about this - especially from the right. I am not from the left or right I am centrist. PTSD is a new age disorder like ADHD. Back in WW1 none of the returning soldiers had PTSD it hadn't been invented. Did this guy look like he had PTSD when he returned? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Jacka

You've got to be joking.

Ever heard of shellshock? Thats what they used to call PTSD.

I'd love to dump you in a warzone Baron, see how well you cope.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 7:53pm:

It probably doesn't surprise people to hear that I am a strong opponent of our overseas military ventures, and I certainly won't begrudge the right for people defending their land to attack our soldiers against aggression.

Yep, no surprise.

Lionel Edriess wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 9:23pm:

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:08pm: It's alright Gandalf. The right wing fanatical war loving denizens of Ozpolitic will offer to take these veterans into their homes. Swagman, Herbert, Gizmo, longweekend58, Rhino, Lisa Jones, Bogarde, Lionel Idriess, and others of their ilk will step up. Fat chance! I feel like I know you. If not on a personal level, perhaps your tone, ideology, sentence structure, vocabulary and grammar, mark you as someone I am familiar with. If not, please forgive me, for I have mistaken you for another - of 'your ilk'. You, on the other hand, know nothing of me, other than a preconceived notion elicited by my online persona. More fool you! You know nothing of my connections and interactions with veterans, and I feel no need to elaborate on them. You are Unforgiven, right? I can see how that works - on so many levels.

If your real name is Lionel Edriess I don't know of anyone with such name. You are mistaken if you believe you know me.

If your real name is not Lionel Edriess you don't remind me of anyone I know in the real world by your words or your professed ideology.

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 8:48pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:35pm: I'm frankly astonished that there doesn't seem to be any noise about this - especially from the right. I am not from the left or right I am centrist. PTSD is a new age disorder like ADHD. Back in WW1 none of the returning soldiers had PTSD it hadn't been invented. Did this guy look like he had PTSD when he returned? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Jacka

Yes.  As a matter of fact, Jacka didn't die of his physical wounds - he shot himself, but the official line sounds better.

He died of his wounds, all right..... same as many others did and do.

My father was a PTSD for as long as I knew him - all the classic symptoms - but nobody recognised it until he retired and sought his Service Pension.  He ended up on TPI.

I was diagnosed with PTSD - you have no idea what is involved, and it took me years to learn to sleep in the dark.... and I only managed that by working until I dropped..... literally...

Remember 'Taxi Driver'?  "I'm workin' long hours now...."

It's not some cafe gangster boutique problem - it kills people, you jerk... like that young Captain from Afghanistan who went off and laid down and died... and anyone who knows it can see it in the eyes of the person afflicted.

It was around for centuries and Shakespeare and even the
Ancient Greeks recognised it... Shakespeare somewhere in Henry IV... the Ancient Greeks in this...

"Condemn not the man who spends his whole day staring into the fire - it may well be that he has already spent too long staring into the fires of hell."

I met a young ex-ADF guy couple of days ago..... I spotted it instantly.... next time I see him I'll have a talk to him.... explain that he WILL get through it.....

Making noise about returned soldiers doesn't have same feelgood vibe to it as noise about asylum shoppers seekers does. Plus, they're probably all white males. Who cares for them, right?

PTSD sufferers are shunned because they are not the strong invincible men the military likes to depict in it's propaganda.

The military treats it like a contagious disease that needs to be expunged and isolated by banishment lest it spreads through the ranks.

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 8:08pm:

It's alright Gandalf. The right wing fanatical war loving denizens of Ozpolitic will offer to take these veterans into their homes. Swagman, Herbert, Gizmo, longweekend58, Rhino, Lisa Jones, Bogarde, Lionel Idriess, Red Baron, Baron Von Rort, UnsubRocky, Double Plus Good and others of their ilk will step up. Fat chance!

I didn't realise that Unforgivable sees me as a right wing, fanatical, war loving person. I was very much an anti-war, left-wing/centrist, progressive, environmentalist.

Thank you for that piece of exposition, Unforgivable. Now, put that crystal meth away, before you do any more harm.

Oh - down here is 'Jacka Country' - there are a few of his relatives around here.  Lass up the road's uncle is a Jacka...

It's also Kelly Country... not that there's anything wrong with that...

UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:18pm:

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:08pm: It's alright Gandalf. The right wing fanatical war loving denizens of Ozpolitic will offer to take these veterans into their homes. Swagman, Herbert, Gizmo, longweekend58, Rhino, Lisa Jones, Bogarde, Lionel Idriess, Red Baron, Baron Von Rort, UnsubRocky, Double Plus Good and others of their ilk will step up. Fat chance! I didn't realise that Unforgivable sees me as a right wing, fanatical, war loving person. I was very much an anti-war, left-wing/centrist, progressive, environmentalist. Thank you for that piece of exposition, Unforgivable. Now, put that crystal meth away, before you do any more harm.

I am neither right wing nor fanatical - I'm politically between the two and choose as I like.... and I can be damned good at war...

I said, when the US bombed and invaded Afghanistan (a  fight I struggled mightily to get into - even considering a nursing degree to get in as a civvie - heart troubles stopped that) that is was shameful for the richest and most powerful country in the world to bomb the poorest...

Why don't I get a mention?  Is it something I said?

Why is there an assumption that anyone who supports the Diggers and gives a damn is either a right wing nutjob or a left wing nutjob?

Anyone ever heard of people?

I plan to retire into doing aid work.... always have..... and I'm certain I can bring a new dimension to it...

It must be a terrible thing to return from what most would consider the ultimate sacrifice for your country only to be shunned.
Even more difficult when people back home have differing opinions on our involvement in overseas wars.

Economic Left/Right: -2.5
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.38

Just did the test: Left wing libertarian

UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:40pm:

Economic Left/Right: -2.5 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.38 Just did the test: Left wing libertarian

I'm further left than the Dalai Lama - Fascist Pig that he is.... and I'm a great leader..... I lead by example....

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 10:31pm:

Lionel Edriess wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 9:23pm: Unforgiven wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:08pm: It's alright Gandalf. The right wing fanatical war loving denizens of Ozpolitic will offer to take these veterans into their homes. Swagman, Herbert, Gizmo, longweekend58, Rhino, Lisa Jones, Bogarde, Lionel Idriess, and others of their ilk will step up. Fat chance! I feel like I know you. If not on a personal level, perhaps your tone, ideology, sentence structure, vocabulary and grammar, mark you as someone I am familiar with. If not, please forgive me, for I have mistaken you for another - of 'your ilk'. You, on the other hand, know nothing of me, other than a preconceived notion elicited by my online persona. More fool you! You know nothing of my connections and interactions with veterans, and I feel no need to elaborate on them. You are Unforgiven, right? I can see how that works - on so many levels. If your real name is Lionel Edriess I don't know of anyone with such name. You are mistaken if you believe you know me. If your real name is not Lionel Edriess you don't remind me of anyone I know in the real world by your words or your professed ideology.

Aaaah! English is a second language, I see.

I know of your type. I don't need to know you personally to know that.

My name is a play on words, as is my character.

Am I Forgiven?

Amadd wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:35pm:

It must be a terrible thing to return from what most would consider the ultimate sacrifice for your country only to be shunned. Even more difficult when people back home have differing opinions on our involvement in overseas wars.

PTSD is a normal person's reaction to extremely abnormal events..... I've always held the theory that rejection of the sufferer and inability to fit back in were the main propellants of this disorder into eventual chaos for the individual.

They arrive home in one piece and are relieved that they have done so.... they want a decent life...  then the war starts.......

Do you know a single un-divorced grunt?  I don't....

Amadd wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:35pm:

It must be a terrible thing to return from what most would consider the ultimate sacrifice for your country only to be shunned. Even more difficult when people back home have differing opinions on our involvement in overseas wars.

There are no longer clean cut honest and fair victories. War in recent times has been clouded by the duplicity of leaders who manufacture excuses for war and then proceed to kill hundreds of thousands indiscriminately.

Men come back wondering how they consented to participate in such madness.

Only part of them comes back.

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:49pm:

Amadd wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 11:35pm: It must be a terrible thing to return from what most would consider the ultimate sacrifice for your country only to be shunned. Even more difficult when people back home have differing opinions on our involvement in overseas wars. There are no longer clean cut honest and fair victories. War in recent times has been clouded by the duplicity of leaders who manufacture excuses for war and then proceed to kill hundreds of thousands indiscriminately. Men come back wondering how they consented to participate in such madness. Only part of them comes back.

They know why they were sent - and they know it's a political decision based on a perceived 'national interest' - whether it be oil, mutual protection treaties, or international links.

Many suggest that Korea was the last patriotic war - The Last Call Of The Bugle (read it some time), and even as far back as the original James Jones "The Thin Red Line" his central character - the sergeant - is a cynic who goes around saying:-  "Property.. property .. it's all about property." (something missed in two film versions of that book now)

Jones was a grunt and understood that the Pacific War was - and remains - a continuation of the decades long contest between the Manifest Destiny of the United States and the Divine Mission of Japan to develop a trading bloc in the Pacific and promote/extend national interest.  This has been dubbed The Second Hundred Years War and continues in a different guise to this day, and is one reason behind the rapprochement with "Communist" China... (only one).... a kind of alliance by cultural assimilation of the Chinese.

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:13pm:

PTSD sufferers are shunned because they are not the strong invincible men the military likes to depict in it's propaganda. The military treats it like a contagious disease that needs to be expunged and isolated by banishment lest it spreads through the ranks.

Yes good point. They are an embarrassment to us. If we accepted that the reality of sending our young men and women off to war was to create mental wrecks that are quietly shunned in the aftermath - then we might think twice about sending them off in the first place. And thats obviously unacceptable.   

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 8:48pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:35pm: I'm frankly astonished that there doesn't seem to be any noise about this - especially from the right. I am not from the left or right I am centrist. PTSD is a new age disorder like ADHD. Back in WW1 none of the returning soldiers had PTSD it hadn't been invented. Did this guy look like he had PTSD when he returned? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Jacka

ive read Albert Jacka's biographies.
What an absolutely amazing character.
thanks for bringing him up.

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 8:48pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:35pm: I'm frankly astonished that there doesn't seem to be any noise about this - especially from the right. I am not from the left or right I am centrist. PTSD is a new age disorder like ADHD. Back in WW1 none of the returning soldiers had PTSD it hadn't been invented. Did this guy look like he had PTSD when he returned? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Jacka

Returning WWI and WW2 soldiers beat their wives and kids to a pulp on a regular basis when they came home drunk after washing their war horrors away with a gut full of booze.

Same thing, except now it has a name and it's not just alcohol, it's drugs as well now.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2015 at 7:50am:

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 11:13pm: PTSD sufferers are shunned because they are not the strong invincible men the military likes to depict in it's propaganda. The military treats it like a contagious disease that needs to be expunged and isolated by banishment lest it spreads through the ranks. Yes good point. They are an embarrassment to us. If we accepted that the reality of sending our young men and women off to war was to create mental wrecks that are quietly shunned in the aftermath - then we might think twice about sending them off in the first place. And thats obviously unacceptable.

Whenever I get the chance, I tell high school students about the horrors of war and about ADF abuse. The ADF send recruiters into the schools (it should be illegal) to brainwash vulnerable teenagers into signing up.

I tell them they're safer on the dole.

i think PTSD probably would be an infectious disease and it is wise for the military to isolate these cases.

as i have said before, you become the average of the 5 people you spend the most time with.

if you put an average soldier in with 5 guys who are falling apart, he will fall apart.
put him in with 5 heroes, he will become heroic.

as i say to crook on a regular basis.

put a 17 yo unemployed lad in a house with 5 guys who are negative, pessimistic, wear pyjamas all day and watch porn and he will catch their disease.

put a 17 yo unemployed lad in a work for the dole program with me and i'll have him associating with hard working, humorous, optomistic, "can-do"  "go-getters"

you absorb the personality of those you associate with by osmosis.
This is why its important young people dont go to rallies with "get-up" or other type infectious people carrying socialist toxins 

aquascoot wrote on Jul 30^th, 2015 at 8:15am:

i think PTSD probably would be an infectious disease and it is wise for the military to isolate these cases. as i have said before, you become the average of the 5 people you spend the most time with. if you put an average soldier in with 5 guys who are falling apart, he will fall apart. put him in with 5 heroes, he will become heroic. as i say to crook on a regular basis. put a 17 yo unemployed lad in a house with 5 guys who are negative, pessimistic, wear pyjamas all day and watch porn and he will catch their disease. put a 17 yo unemployed lad in a work for the dole program with me and i'll have him associating with hard working, humorous, optomistic, "can-do"  "go-getters" you absorb the personality of those you associate with by osmosis. This is why its important young people dont go to rallies with "get-up" or other type infectious people carrying socialist toxins

Any comment on the abhorrent way the Australian government treats ex servicemen who have trashed brains because of their war service?

Oh i think veterans get very well looked after.
they certainly have gold cards which entitle them to unlimited care from psychiatrists and psychologists.

I am a bit ambivalent about PTSD.

Like whiplash, once you start attaching big compensation to something, the subconscious mind will tend to produce more symptoms. This isnt even been done at a fraudulent level.
If you are aware that night terrors and flashbacks are going to result in a payout, then the human mind can manufacture these.
If you are aware that neck pain will result in a payout, the human mind will make those muscles painful.

i dont think its ever helpful to pay money for a disability, not because i'm not compassionate but because this merely serves to "reward" disability and we need to reward "ability"

What i would introduce is a "no claims bonus".

Any soldier who serves so many days in the frontline and remains mentally strong, recieves so many 1000's , 10's of 1000's or even 100's of 1000's of dollars.
thus we are rewarding bravery and courage and we will get more bravery and courage.

i totally agree these blokes, especially on the front line deserve bigger pay.
a lot of military, however, would face less threat of violence then a suburban policeman.
so we need a way of working out who is in the frontline and who is cooking bacon back in the greenzone and eating baskin and robbins for morning tea.

aquascoot wrote on Jul 30^th, 2015 at 8:50am:

Oh i think veterans get very well looked after. they certainly have gold cards which entitle them to unlimited care from psychiatrists and psychologists. I am a bit ambivalent about PTSD. Like whiplash, once you start attaching big compensation to something, the subconscious mind will tend to produce more symptoms. This isnt even been done at a fraudulent level. If you are aware that night terrors and flashbacks are going to result in a payout, then the human mind can manufacture these. If you are aware that neck pain will result in a payout, the human mind will make those muscles painful. i dont think its ever helpful to pay money for a disability, not because i'm not compassionate but because this merely serves to "reward" disability and we need to reward "ability" What i would introduce is a "no claims bonus". Any soldier who serves so many days in the frontline and remains mentally strong, recieves so many 1000's , 10's of 1000's or even 100's of 1000's of dollars. thus we are rewarding bravery and courage and we will get more bravery and courage. i totally agree these blokes, especially on the front line deserve bigger pay. a lot of military, however, would face less threat of violence then a suburban policeman. so we need a way of working out who is in the frontline and who is cooking bacon back in the greenzone and eating baskin and robbins for morning tea.

Money buys mental health now.....ok.

mental health should be about maintaining a good and positive social network.
i would imagine soldiers on the front line have a great bunch of "mates" and a great "esprit-de-corps"
This would be similar to elite footballers.
When this very positive social circle is stripped away , then mental health issues will probably arise .
So many ex soldiers and ex elite footballers etc etc will struggle when they are finished in what is a very intense part of their lives.

Now, does sitting around , talking to psychs all day help this re adjustment.

it would have to be a downer to be in an environment where all you are "soaking up" by osmosis is all this softie softie weak , poor me, poor you  mentality.

These guys were at the peak of mental and phsyical strength.

they need rewards for "being that way"
Why reward weakness.
Why reward "giving up"

Reward them properly for the great physical and mental strength they have shown and keep them on as living legends and "ornaments " to the service.

I am not surprised they have trouble adjusting to mainstream society as mainstream society nowadays does not value any of the things that would be core to army life.

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 30^th, 2015 at 8:01am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:48pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:35pm: I'm frankly astonished that there doesn't seem to be any noise about this - especially from the right. I am not from the left or right I am centrist. PTSD is a new age disorder like ADHD. Back in WW1 none of the returning soldiers had PTSD it hadn't been invented. Did this guy look like he had PTSD when he returned? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Jacka Returning WWI and WW2 soldiers beat their wives and kids to a pulp on a regular basis when they came home drunk after washing their war horrors away with a gut full of booze. Same thing, except now it has a name and it's not just alcohol, it's drugs as well now.

And that, Pansi, is a complete load of horsesh1t....

The problem for returning soldiers is that Pansi and all the luvvies expect the soldiers to give up the very functional manly values of courage and honour and valour and fit into this mish mash of a society the luvvies have created which values....

well i dont know WTF it values.

What i would suggest is that the luvvies shoudl make an attempt to fit into the soldiers world .
Construct a society that honours the rightard manly values of bravery, honour, courage, valour and virtue
instead of a society that seems to value

weakness, victimhood and soft cockery

aquascoot wrote on Jul 30^th, 2015 at 8:15am:

i think PTSD probably would be an infectious disease and it is wise for the military to isolate these cases. as i have said before, you become the average of the 5 people you spend the most time with. if you put an average soldier in with 5 guys who are falling apart, he will fall apart. put him in with 5 heroes, he will become heroic. as i say to crook on a regular basis. put a 17 yo unemployed lad in a house with 5 guys who are negative, pessimistic, wear pyjamas all day and watch porn and he will catch their disease. put a 17 yo unemployed lad in a work for the dole program with me and i'll have him associating with hard working, humorous, optomistic, "can-do"  "go-getters" you absorb the personality of those you associate with by osmosis. This is why its important young people dont go to rallies with "get-up" or other type infectious people carrying socialist toxins

Is there a shortage of horse semen harvesters?

aquascoot wrote on Jul 30^th, 2015 at 9:59am:

The problem for returning soldiers is that Pansi and all the luvvies expect the soldiers to give up the very functional manly values of courage and honour and valour and fit into this mish mash of a society the luvvies have created which values....

They are supposed to stop killing people when they return to Australia.

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:45pm:

Amadd wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 11:35pm: It must be a terrible thing to return from what most would consider the ultimate sacrifice for your country only to be shunned. Even more difficult when people back home have differing opinions on our involvement in overseas wars. PTSD is a normal person's reaction to extremely abnormal events..... I've always held the theory that rejection of the sufferer and inability to fit back in were the main propellants of this disorder into eventual chaos for the individual. They arrive home in one piece and are relieved that they have done so.... they want a decent life...  then the war starts....... Do you know a single un-divorced grunt?  I don't....

Perhaps PTSD has its roots in repressed homosexuality?

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2015 at 9:43am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 30th, 2015 at 8:01am: Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:48pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:35pm: I'm frankly astonished that there doesn't seem to be any noise about this - especially from the right. I am not from the left or right I am centrist. PTSD is a new age disorder like ADHD. Back in WW1 none of the returning soldiers had PTSD it hadn't been invented. Did this guy look like he had PTSD when he returned? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Jacka Returning WWI and WW2 soldiers beat their wives and kids to a pulp on a regular basis when they came home drunk after washing their war horrors away with a gut full of booze. Same thing, except now it has a name and it's not just alcohol, it's drugs as well now. And that, Pansi, is a complete load of horsesh1t....

Many of them turned to alcohol, alcohol leads to family violence.....everybody know dat......

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 30^th, 2015 at 1:01pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 30th, 2015 at 9:43am: Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 30th, 2015 at 8:01am: Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:48pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:35pm: I'm frankly astonished that there doesn't seem to be any noise about this - especially from the right. I am not from the left or right I am centrist. PTSD is a new age disorder like ADHD. Back in WW1 none of the returning soldiers had PTSD it hadn't been invented. Did this guy look like he had PTSD when he returned? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Jacka Returning WWI and WW2 soldiers beat their wives and kids to a pulp on a regular basis when they came home drunk after washing their war horrors away with a gut full of booze. Same thing, except now it has a name and it's not just alcohol, it's drugs as well now. And that, Pansi, is a complete load of horsesh1t.... Many of them turned to alcohol, alcohol leads to family violence.....everybody know dat......

Not in my experience, they didn't....

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2015 at 1:06pm:

Not in my experience, they didn't....

Yep!.....in my experience Second World War, they turned to booze and bashing. Vietnam.....many, many, many had/have mental health issues caused by alcohol and drugs.

Iraq and Afghanistan....same, same, maybe even worse. They come back quite mad.......it's not their fault.

There's enough documentation.

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 30^th, 2015 at 1:29pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 30th, 2015 at 1:06pm: Not in my experience, they didn't.... Yep!.....in my experience Second World War, they turned to booze and bashing. Vietnam.....many, many, many had/have mental health issues caused by alcohol and drugs. Iraq and Afghanistan....same, same, maybe even worse. They come back quite mad.......it's not their fault. There's enough documentation.

Well none of the WW2 vets I knew did, and none of their friends knew of anyone who did either.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2015 at 4:33pm:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 30th, 2015 at 1:29pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 30th, 2015 at 1:06pm: Not in my experience, they didn't.... Yep!.....in my experience Second World War, they turned to booze and bashing. Vietnam.....many, many, many had/have mental health issues caused by alcohol and drugs. Iraq and Afghanistan....same, same, maybe even worse. They come back quite mad.......it's not their fault. There's enough documentation. Well none of the WW2 vets I knew did, and none of their friends knew of anyone who did either.

Gizmo is off half-cocked again.

Would they confess to Gizmo? I think not.

What are those numbers Gizmo seeing about 99.9% of WW2 veterans are dead.

Gizmo's research method? Seance?

aquascoot wrote on Jul 30^th, 2015 at 8:50am:

Oh i think veterans get very well looked after. they certainly have gold cards which entitle them to unlimited care from psychiatrists and psychologists. I am a bit ambivalent about PTSD. Like whiplash, once you start attaching big compensation to something, the subconscious mind will tend to produce more symptoms. This isnt even been done at a fraudulent level. If you are aware that night terrors and flashbacks are going to result in a payout, then the human mind can manufacture these. If you are aware that neck pain will result in a payout, the human mind will make those muscles painful. i dont think its ever helpful to pay money for a disability, not because i'm not compassionate but because this merely serves to "reward" disability and we need to reward "ability" What i would introduce is a "no claims bonus". Any soldier who serves so many days in the frontline and remains mentally strong, recieves so many 1000's , 10's of 1000's or even 100's of 1000's of dollars. thus we are rewarding bravery and courage and we will get more bravery and courage. i totally agree these blokes, especially on the front line deserve bigger pay. a lot of military, however, would face less threat of violence then a suburban policeman. so we need a way of working out who is in the frontline and who is cooking bacon back in the greenzone and eating baskin and robbins for morning tea.

Not everyone has a gold card - most have white cards for specific conditions.... and getting  a gold card isn't a matter of walking in and asking for it... it takes a lot of effort and hoop jumping.... and I can assure you that when Howard was re-elected in 2000 or so - the move was on to curtail the number of TPI pensions, just to satisfy the number crunchers.  I pointed out to the VVAA that there would be a decline in the number of TPIs granted, since the government had budgeted for only a certain number, and with the advent of PTSD that number was set to soar.

I knew a grunt from 7RAR who was on 150% disability and no TPI..... how do you work that out?

At that time I knew a counsellor who was a Vet, and he tried for it thinking he had all the ropes in hand - and found out it wasn't so easy.

Like rumours of people walking in off the street and getting a DSP - it is just that - rumours.

As for 'big dollars' TPI is about the value of double pension, and is only compensation for damage caused... often enough to allow a Digger to drink himself to death.

No Digger I know from Vietnam has remained married, and it costs a lot of money out of your life to go through that, and at one time it was a matter of the grunts seemed to be living in caravan parks and in garages somewhere....

The rate of suicide is double the ordinary population.

Perhaps returning homogenized soldiers need to be heterosexualized before being released into the wilds of civil society.

Sex assault victims in military are mostly men. It's probably that 99% of cases of sexual assault of military males are not reported for fear of humiliation.

PTSD cause?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/20/victims-of-sex-assaults-in-military-are-mostly-sil/?page=all


Quote:

More military men than women are sexually abused in the ranks each year, a Pentagon survey shows, highlighting the underreporting of male-on-male assaults. When the Defense Department released the results of its anonymous sexual abuse survey this month and concluded that 26,000 service members were victims in fiscal 2012, which ended Sept. 30, an automatic assumption was that most were women. But roughly 14,000 of the victims were male and 12,000 female, according to a scientific survey sample produced by the Pentagon.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 9:34pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:48pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:35pm: I'm frankly astonished that there doesn't seem to be any noise about this - especially from the right. I am not from the left or right I am centrist. PTSD is a new age disorder like ADHD. Back in WW1 none of the returning soldiers had PTSD it hadn't been invented. Did this guy look like he had PTSD when he returned? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Jacka You've got to be joking. Ever heard of shellshock? Thats what they used to call PTSD. I'd love to dump you in a warzone Baron, see how well you cope.

Studies show this PTSD is more common with women and people from urban areas.

The same people who invented ADHD and PTSD also used electric shock therapy to treat mental patients.

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 31^st, 2015 at 3:15pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 9:34pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:48pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:35pm: I'm frankly astonished that there doesn't seem to be any noise about this - especially from the right. I am not from the left or right I am centrist. PTSD is a new age disorder like ADHD. Back in WW1 none of the returning soldiers had PTSD it hadn't been invented. Did this guy look like he had PTSD when he returned? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Jacka You've got to be joking. Ever heard of shellshock? Thats what they used to call PTSD. I'd love to dump you in a warzone Baron, see how well you cope. Studies show this PTSD is more common with women and people from urban areas. The same people who invented ADHD and PTSD also used electric shock therapy to treat mental patients.

Shell shock or PTSD......same, same. The horrors of war.

Soldiers with shell shock showed a wide variety of symptoms, ranging from deafness, bizarre gaits, violent shaking and paralyses to anxiety, depression, transient psychoses (with hallucinations and delusions) and flashbacks and nightmares which are classic displays of PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder).

http://theconversation.com/world-war-i-records-reveal-myths-and-realities-of-soldiers-with-shell-shock-34383

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 30^th, 2015 at 5:02pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 30th, 2015 at 4:33pm: Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 30th, 2015 at 1:29pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 30th, 2015 at 1:06pm: Not in my experience, they didn't.... Yep!.....in my experience Second World War, they turned to booze and bashing. Vietnam.....many, many, many had/have mental health issues caused by alcohol and drugs. Iraq and Afghanistan....same, same, maybe even worse. They come back quite mad.......it's not their fault. There's enough documentation. Well none of the WW2 vets I knew did, and none of their friends knew of anyone who did either. Gizmo is off half-cocked again. Would they confess to Gizmo? I think not. What are those numbers Gizmo seeing about 99.9% of WW2 veterans are dead. Gizmo's research method? Seance?

Nope, sorry 'Laugh-til-you-are-spastic', but I base that on the fact that my Father, 3 of my Uncles, 2 of Aunts and an entire Battalions worth of 'courtesy' uncles (100+ WW2 veterans) did NOT show any 'drunken' or 'sober' domestic violence towards their family...
Therefore, despite the somewhat standard idea that "ALL soldiers are violent drunken psychopaths", I'm going to say that the idea  is total BULLSHIT, invented by complete morons (like YOU and Pansi)...

OK?? 

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 31^st, 2015 at 4:34pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 31st, 2015 at 3:15pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 9:34pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:48pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:35pm: I'm frankly astonished that there doesn't seem to be any noise about this - especially from the right. I am not from the left or right I am centrist. PTSD is a new age disorder like ADHD. Back in WW1 none of the returning soldiers had PTSD it hadn't been invented. Did this guy look like he had PTSD when he returned? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Jacka You've got to be joking. Ever heard of shellshock? Thats what they used to call PTSD. I'd love to dump you in a warzone Baron, see how well you cope. Studies show this PTSD is more common with women and people from urban areas. The same people who invented ADHD and PTSD also used electric shock therapy to treat mental patients. Shell shock or PTSD......same, same. The horrors of war.

PTSD is a new age condition,it gets lots of funding perhaps that could be why this industry is growing.


Quote:

As many as 800,000 Australians will suffer from PTSD at any given time,making it the second most common mental health disorder The Australian Centre for Post Traumatic Mental health estimates that up to 10 per cent of people will suffer from PTSD at some point in their lives. abc.net.au/news/2013-08-27/ptsd-depression-mental-illness/4915164

Studies show this PTSD only affects 8% of the population,mostly women and people in urban areas

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 31^st, 2015 at 5:02pm:

PTSD is a new age condition

It's an age old condition with a new name.

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 30^th, 2015 at 10:16am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 11:45pm: Amadd wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 11:35pm: It must be a terrible thing to return from what most would consider the ultimate sacrifice for your country only to be shunned. Even more difficult when people back home have differing opinions on our involvement in overseas wars. PTSD is a normal person's reaction to extremely abnormal events..... I've always held the theory that rejection of the sufferer and inability to fit back in were the main propellants of this disorder into eventual chaos for the individual. They arrive home in one piece and are relieved that they have done so.... they want a decent life...  then the war starts....... Do you know a single un-divorced grunt?  I don't.... Perhaps PTSD has its roots in repressed homosexuality?

How is it possible that your trolling, inflammatory, cretinous commentary is still allowed on this forum?

I would like to send you to a regional get-together of the VVMC, or a personal meeting with either Les Hiddens or Keith Payne, and invite you to repeat that remark.

The results could be quite interesting.

At the very least, it would probably instruct you in the virtue of quietude. T'would appear that even when you attempt to raise your voice, the result is flaccid.

Just sayin'.

Lionel, it seems your sentiments would be better directed at Baron. He believes PTSD is all made up. He thinks vets should just harden the bugger up and just be "proper" heroes like Albert Jacka

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 31^st, 2015 at 3:15pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 9:34pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:48pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 8:35pm: I'm frankly astonished that there doesn't seem to be any noise about this - especially from the right. I am not from the left or right I am centrist. PTSD is a new age disorder like ADHD. Back in WW1 none of the returning soldiers had PTSD it hadn't been invented. Did this guy look like he had PTSD when he returned? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Jacka You've got to be joking. Ever heard of shellshock? Thats what they used to call PTSD. I'd love to dump you in a warzone Baron, see how well you cope. Studies show this PTSD is more common with women and people from urban areas. The same people who invented ADHD and PTSD also used electric shock therapy to treat mental patients.

I can see the merits of EST for some.....

http://www.dp-stuff.info/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/electric_chair2.jpg

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 31^st, 2015 at 6:46pm:

Lionel, it seems your sentiments would be better directed at Baron. He believes PTSD is all made up. He thinks vets should just harden the bugger up and just be "proper" heroes like Albert Jacka

Thank you for the heads up!

He should also get an invitation.

Nothing like a little 'cultural immersion' to clear the sinuses!

8-)

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 31^st, 2015 at 4:57pm:

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 30th, 2015 at 5:02pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 30th, 2015 at 4:33pm: Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 30th, 2015 at 1:29pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 30th, 2015 at 1:06pm: Not in my experience, they didn't.... Yep!.....in my experience Second World War, they turned to booze and bashing. Vietnam.....many, many, many had/have mental health issues caused by alcohol and drugs. Iraq and Afghanistan....same, same, maybe even worse. They come back quite mad.......it's not their fault. There's enough documentation. Well none of the WW2 vets I knew did, and none of their friends knew of anyone who did either. Gizmo is off half-cocked again. Would they confess to Gizmo? I think not. What are those numbers Gizmo seeing about 99.9% of WW2 veterans are dead. Gizmo's research method? Seance? Nope, sorry 'Laugh-til-you-are-spastic', but I base that on the fact that my Father, 3 of my Uncles, 2 of Aunts and an entire Battalions worth of 'courtesy' uncles (100+ WW2 veterans) did NOT show any 'drunken' or 'sober' domestic violence towards their family... Therefore, despite the somewhat standard idea that "ALL soldiers are violent drunken psychopaths", I'm going to say that the idea  is total BULLSHIT, invented by complete nice people (like YOU and Pansi)... OK??

If Gizmo's 100+ 'courtesy uncles' were real I won't infuriate Gizmo by implying a behavioral meaning to that.

Perhaps Gizmo has as many 'courtesy uncles'  as he has invisible friends. PTSD may be communicable.