The stifling dictatorial authority of the clerics


ISLAM = = blindly believe the clerics, blindly obey the clerics.



"O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble.....
Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith."
Koran 5.101, 102


"We sent not a messenger, but to be obeyed..........they ['believers'] can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction."
Koran 4.64, 65


"O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger [i.e. the clerics], and make not vain your deeds!"
Koran 47:33



There is an aversion to scrutiny, and reasoned examination of ISLAM's tenets and laws, which ISLAM has always promoted and enforced [violently], which is still in vogue among ISLAM's leaders today.

But all is well, in Malaysia.





Quote:

Avoid intellect, logic when it comes to Islam, Perak mufti tells Cabinet KUALA LUMPUR, Aug 4, 2015 “I advise them not to go overboard. Islam is based on faith… Don’t make any remarks based on the intellect or logic because they are laws of Allah,” Harussani said. ..... “The Constitution states that the Islam is the religion of the federation. Therefore, they cannot deride and belittle Allah’s rules. If not, then it means they have breached their oaths,” added the mufti.

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/avoid-intellect-logic-when-it-comes-to-islam-perak-mufti-tells-cabinet




It is no use, trying to reason with the moslem.

You are an infidel.

Ergo, you are in error!


"ISLAM is peace!"

Agreed I never try to reason with them, that much is pointless. I only post facts for others who read the propaganda so they don't get sucked in. I have never seen one muslim ever be taught anything about his religion or the fallacies/myths within and accept it for what it is. Not one. Except only when they are dictated too by their clerics and they teach its all true.

I read about the ones that have broken free and they post online. Kudos to them. That would be a very skinny minority I would imagine.

I believe there are good people caught up in it. Its a shame to see them waste away on a bitter tale span by a few men. The sheer years and effort they put into trying to keep a myth happy. To find out its all bogus is a bloody huge anger enticing thing I would imagine. Not sure after many years how I would react if I was born into it.

I'd probably eventually break free I think after many years.

LifeOrDeath wrote on Aug 5^th, 2015 at 1:33am:

Agreed I never try to reason with them, that much is pointless. I only post facts for others who read the propaganda so they don't get sucked in. I have never seen one muslim ever be taught anything about his religion or the fallacies/myths within and accept it for what it is. Not one. Except only when they are dictated too by their clerics and they teach its all true. I read about the ones that have broken free and they post online. Kudos to them. That would be a very skinny minority I would imagine. I believe there are good people caught up in it. Its a shame to see them waste away on a bitter tale span by a few men. The sheer years and effort they put into trying to keep a myth happy. To find out its all bogus is a bloody huge anger enticing thing I would imagine. Not sure after many years how I would react if I was born into it. I'd probably eventually break free I think after many years.

It'ld be hard to break free from a cult.
Most likely all their family and friends are in that cult.

Yadda, there is a strand of thought among the Christian Faith that argues much the same thing with regards to the Bible (logic etc.) which general goes under the title "presuppositionalism"

Have you heard of them?

Stratos wrote on Aug 5^th, 2015 at 8:01am:

Yadda, there is a strand of thought among the Christian Faith that argues much the same thing with regards to the Bible (logic etc.) which general goes under the title "presuppositionalism" Have you heard of them?

Quote:

Presuppositionalism is a school of Christian apologetics that believes the Christian faith is the only basis for rational thought. It presupposes that the Bible is divine revelation and attempts to expose flaws in other worldviews.

Have i heard of them?

No.



I believe that this 'life' ['the universe and everything'] is an elaborate construct.

I can not prove it.

It is what i have come to believe.


I believe that the OT and NT was inspired by God, though written down by flawed men, and interpreted by flawed men.

And the flawed men bit,   .....i am one of them.

Everyone 'in the flesh' is flawed, and none of us can 'see' clearly.       [...see what is real]


1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


THAT, is the path.

AND, we are all in this together!!!





Deuteronomy 8:1
All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.
2  And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
3  And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.


Ecclesiastes 12:13
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.





+++


Yadda said, somewhere.....


Quote:

Reading scripture is a form of spiritual invocation [i believe]. And imo, the words and thoughts expressed within scripture, express [to me] the mind of our God. And, reading those words and thoughts, exposes me to that spirit, which i [choose, and] want to be influenced by. i.e. The spirit of God. It is that simple.

Malaysia is one of the examples of a "good" Muslim country that Gandalf and Brian like to trot out. Apparently Brian visited once and escaped with his head still attached, which proves they are just like everyone else.

Malaysia is the place that FD likes to cherry pick from the pew survey to pretend that most muslims support stoning for adultery and death for apostasy.

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2015 at 5:25pm:

Malaysia is one of the examples of a "good" Muslim country that Gandalf and Brian like to trot out. Apparently Brian visited once and escaped with his head still attached, which proves they are just like everyone else.

I've been to Malaysia.  It was great.  Alcohol was a bit pricey though, no doubt thanks to those dastardly Musselmen >:(

Far from a perfect country, with a hefty amount of corruption and favoritism, but if you can walk uncovered from your house, buy a char siu and drink it with a beer in public, I'm not sure it is the fundamentalist paradise you are looking for Freediver.

There were only two times when my group were inconvenienced by religion, one was at the National Mosque (women had to cover up) and at Batu Caves (women had to cover their legs), a Hindu holy site complete with cheeky monkeys and like a million steps to climb :P

Tell FD how you didn't lose your head either Stratos - he's looking for new material. His Brian joke is hilarious and all, but it grows a little old after telling it non-stop for two years.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5^th, 2015 at 6:15pm:

Malaysia is the place

In the surreal tropical politics of contemporary Malaysia it is good business sense to use government funds to make loss-making property investments in order to enrich personal bank accounts. Recent revelations in the UK based Sarawak Report allege that Prime Minister Najib Razak did exactly this: shoveling hundreds of millions of dollars from the state sovereign wealth fund, 1 Malaysia Development Berhad, into his personal offshore account, whilst the fund that Najib inaugurated, after he became PM in 2009, accumulated losses of $(US)11 billion. Najib is not alone in practicing this Malaysian version of creative accountancy. Another government fund, Mara Holdings, has paid over the top prices for Australian real estate: its board of investors skim off the difference between asking price and what the company pays.

Excluded from this gravy train, former PM Mahathir called upon Najib to resign. The exposure of the extent of government corruption casts doubt not only on Najib’s survival, but also that of the ruling United Malay National Organisation. As a result, the current crisis has not only revealed the kleptocratic practice of a political elite, but also how social media, acting outside the state-policed, mainstream media, can expose the limitations of Malaysia’s authoritarian democracy. The manner in which the ruling party has been accustomed to wield its authoritarian grip and the way that grip has weakened is central to understanding the current crisis. Since independence, UMNO, in alliance with smaller ethnically based Chinese and Indian parties, has overseen national development through a Barisan Nasional (National Front) alliance. However, development in the majority, ethnically Malay interest has incurred political and economic costs. Under former PM Mahathir’s long dominance of the party state from 1981-2003, UMNO determined resource allocation and redistributed assets, where minority Chinese, and to a lesser extent Indian business interests, had prevailed. Under Mahathir’s guidance UMNO’s New Economic Policy redistributed socio-economic goods towards the economically deprived majority Malay community and through this ‘constructive protection’ created a modern ‘Malaysian’ identity.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/australia/australia-features/9597002/rumble-in-the-jungle/

Read on.

This corrupt to the core place is the best Islam has to offer.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5^th, 2015 at 6:15pm:

Malaysia is the place that FD likes to cherry pick from the pew survey to pretend that most muslims support stoning for adultery and death for apostasy.

Please quote where I have misrepresented the results of the survey Gandalf. I have had to repeat it so many times for you I know it by heart: the majority of Malaysian Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy and stoning people to death for adultery.

Perhaps this is another case of me saying things without actually saying them.

Soren wrote on Aug 5^th, 2015 at 7:31pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5th, 2015 at 6:15pm: Malaysia is the place In the surreal tropical politics of contemporary Malaysia it is good business sense to use government funds to make loss-making property investments in order to enrich personal bank accounts. Recent revelations in the UK based Sarawak Report allege that Prime Minister Najib Razak did exactly this: shoveling hundreds of millions of dollars from the state sovereign wealth fund, 1 Malaysia Development Berhad, into his personal offshore account, whilst the fund that Najib inaugurated, after he became PM in 2009, accumulated losses of $(US)11 billion. Najib is not alone in practicing this Malaysian version of creative accountancy. Another government fund, Mara Holdings, has paid over the top prices for Australian real estate: its board of investors skim off the difference between asking price and what the company pays. Excluded from this gravy train, former PM Mahathir called upon Najib to resign. The exposure of the extent of government corruption casts doubt not only on Najib’s survival, but also that of the ruling United Malay National Organisation. As a result, the current crisis has not only revealed the kleptocratic practice of a political elite, but also how social media, acting outside the state-policed, mainstream media, can expose the limitations of Malaysia’s authoritarian democracy. The manner in which the ruling party has been accustomed to wield its authoritarian grip and the way that grip has weakened is central to understanding the current crisis. Since independence, UMNO, in alliance with smaller ethnically based Chinese and Indian parties, has overseen national development through a Barisan Nasional (National Front) alliance. However, development in the majority, ethnically Malay interest has incurred political and economic costs. Under former PM Mahathir’s long dominance of the party state from 1981-2003, UMNO determined resource allocation and redistributed assets, where minority Chinese, and to a lesser extent Indian business interests, had prevailed. Under Mahathir’s guidance UMNO’s New Economic Policy redistributed socio-economic goods towards the economically deprived majority Malay community and through this ‘constructive protection’ created a modern ‘Malaysian’ identity. http://www.spectator.co.uk/australia/australia-features/9597002/rumble-in-the-jungle/ Read on. This corrupt to the core place is the best Islam has to offer.

The old boy expands on his travel in Malaysia, his head still intact.

We can still have an open casket, dear boy.

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2015 at 7:41pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 5th, 2015 at 6:15pm: Malaysia is the place that FD likes to cherry pick from the pew survey to pretend that most muslims support stoning for adultery and death for apostasy. Please quote where I have misrepresented the results of the survey Gandalf. I have had to repeat it so many times for you I know it by heart: the majority of Malaysian Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy and stoning people to death for adultery. Perhaps this is another case of me saying things without actually saying them.

That’s taqiyya, FD. Those jolly little Malaysians are lying through their grinning teeth.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 5^th, 2015 at 7:39am:

LifeOrDeath wrote on Aug 5th, 2015 at 1:33am: Agreed I never try to reason with them, that much is pointless. I only post facts for others who read the propaganda so they don't get sucked in. I have never seen one muslim ever be taught anything about his religion or the fallacies/myths within and accept it for what it is. Not one. Except only when they are dictated too by their clerics and they teach its all true. I read about the ones that have broken free and they post online. Kudos to them. That would be a very skinny minority I would imagine. I believe there are good people caught up in it. Its a shame to see them waste away on a bitter tale span by a few men. The sheer years and effort they put into trying to keep a myth happy. To find out its all bogus is a bloody huge anger enticing thing I would imagine. Not sure after many years how I would react if I was born into it. I'd probably eventually break free I think after many years. It'ld be hard to break free from a cult. Most likely all their family and friends are in that cult.

Add to that the physical community their parents have located them in as well. Probably multiple generations above you born into it. Its a shame it was started in a country with a simple people and it took hold of a few generations. The author is long dead and gone. I bet he never imagined his power grab of the people would not be seen through after all these years.

It seems conversations even today on islam are so ridiculous you have to shake your head that you are talking to people that actually talk like its all so serious and real. I mean the guys can wear Armani Suits but the women a garbage bag. If one can't see through that one alone one never will.

Its ok Why,
You can get designer burkhas too!

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1462650/images/o-BEYONCE-facebook.jpg

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2015 at 7:41pm:

Please quote where I have misrepresented the results of the survey Gandalf.

The survey included the results from the largest muslim country on earth - yet you never thought to mention them. Why is that? The survey overall showed that most muslims worldwide don't share the Malaysian's views on apostasy - yet you never thought to mention that. I wonder why.

Do you understand what is meant by the term cherry picking? Perhaps matty can help you, I recently had to explain it to him too.

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 2:06pm:

Its ok Why, You can get designer burkhas too! http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1462650/images/o-BEYONCE-facebook.jpg

See also: Burqini

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 2:40pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 5th, 2015 at 7:41pm: Please quote where I have misrepresented the results of the survey Gandalf. The survey included the results from the largest muslim country on earth - yet you never thought to mention them. Why is that? The survey overall showed that most muslims worldwide don't share the Malaysian's views on apostasy - yet you never thought to mention that. I wonder why. Do you understand what is meant by the term cherry picking? Perhaps matty can help you, I recently had to explain it to him too.

It wasn't matty it was me that you tried to make out ALL the scripture I posted were cherry picked. You found a couple that were out of context and ignored the plethora of scriptures that were posted from the quran that promotes every muslim on earth to be a wannabe homicidal maniac. You still have not proven nor said why you lied that the quran does not promote such a thing when the quran itself made a fool out of you. I guess the quran does tell you to lie as well so you are still a good muselman.

Good luck on your future apologies for the book and cult.

Quote:

The survey included the results from the largest muslim country on earth - yet you never thought to mention them. Why is that?

I did mention them Gandalf. Just not in this thread. There are billions of things I did not mention in this thread. Why do you make an issue of not mentionining Indonesia in a thread about Malaysia? Am I supposed to adopt your 'hey, look over there' apologetics? How is this misrepresenting the results of the survey?

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 7:05am:

Quote: The survey included the results from the largest muslim country on earth - yet you never thought to mention them. Why is that? I did mention them Gandalf. Just not in this thread. There are billions of things I did not mention in this thread. Why do you make an issue of not mentionining Indonesia in a thread about Malaysia? Am I supposed to adopt your 'hey, look over there' apologetics? How is this misrepresenting the results of the survey?

Good point FD. If we want to know about muslim attitudes towards apostasy - its definitely appropriate to focus on little tiny Malaysia to show how ghastly muslims are - and totally ignore the fact that overall most muslims around the world reject the Malaysian view - including the largest muslim country on earth.

Ask me again what cherry picking is FD.

The thread was about Malaysia Gandalf. Look at the OP. It is not cherry picking to talk about Malaysia in that context.

Am I supposed to anticipate the efforts of Muslims at deflecting by posting about the slightly less head hacking interests of Indonesian Muslims compared to Malaysian Muslims?

The thread was about Malaysia because you made it about Malaysia.

Why did you make a thread about Malaysia to "represent" the views of muslims on apostasy - and not about Indonesia, or indeed the entire freaking muslim world?

Its difficult to imagine how any response to this question wouldn't involve at least alluding to cherry picking - but I'm sure you'll find a way FD.

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 7:05am:

Quote: The survey included the results from the largest muslim country on earth - yet you never thought to mention them. Why is that? I did mention them Gandalf. Just not in this thread.

Sorry, FD, are you saying you mentioned parts of the Pew Survey that did not include Malaysian Muslims in other threads?

I'm curious.

Yes Karnal.


Quote:

The thread was about Malaysia because you made it about Malaysia.

Check the OP Gandalf. You know where Kuala Lumpur is don't you? Hint: it's not Lone Pine.


Quote:

Why did you make a thread about Malaysia

I did not start the thread Gandalf.

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 2:00pm:

Yes Karnal.

That's strange. Your Wiki doesn't have any other Pew Survey info in there. What did you post about Muslim opinions that didn't involve cute and cuddly Malaysia, FD?

I'm curious.

I'm sure it will be obvious from the context of the wiki article Karnal.

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 2:58pm:

I'm sure it will be obvious from the context of the wiki article Karnal.

But I can't find it, FD. Any chance you could quote the parts you're talking about?

All I can find are references to cute and cuddly Malaysia.

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 2:00pm:

I did not start the thread Gandalf.

really?

or how about this one?

Must be the other freediver  :P

Karnal wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 2:44pm:

What did you post about Muslim opinions that didn't involve cute and cuddly Malaysia, FD?

Oh FD has a very fair and balanced assessment of Indonesia K...


Quote:

Gandalf often uses Indonesia as an example of a representative country, because it is the biggest Muslim country by population (207 million people, or 87% of the population). This is largely an accident of history - if Muslims had their way, most of them would live in one large Muslim empire, and most of the borders on Muslim countries were drawn up by foreign non-Muslims. Although not as extreme as Malaysia, some 72% (149 million people) of Indonesian Muslims support Shariah law. Of these, 48% (72 million people) support stoning people to death for adultery. That is, there are 72 million little Hitlers right on your doorstep. Of the rest, it is doubtful that many consider the issue to be none of the state's business.

Gotta love those totally sound and not the least bit prejudicial assumptions flying around there.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 3:35pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 7th, 2015 at 2:44pm: What did you post about Muslim opinions that didn't involve cute and cuddly Malaysia, FD? Oh FD has a very fair and balanced assessment of Indonesia K... Quote: Gandalf often uses Indonesia as an example of a representative country, because it is the biggest Muslim country by population (207 million people, or 87% of the population). This is largely an accident of history - if Muslims had their way, most of them would live in one large Muslim empire, and most of the borders on Muslim countries were drawn up by foreign non-Muslims. Although not as extreme as Malaysia, some 72% (149 million people) of Indonesian Muslims support Shariah law. Of these, 48% (72 million people) support stoning people to death for adultery. That is, there are 72 million little Hitlers right on your doorstep. Of the rest, it is doubtful that many consider the issue to be none of the state's business. Gotta love those totally sound and not the least bit prejudicial assumptions flying around there.

Ah. You can't beat good, sound research.

Thanks, FD. You've done it again.

Sorry gandalf, I thought you were refering to this thread. The opening post of this thread was about some cleric in KL. I did not start this thread. What I posted about your views on Malaysia is relevant - far more so than the Indonesian survey results.

Although not as bad as Malaysia, the survey results for Indonesia are hardly reassuring. Nor do they reflect well on Islam.