Post by The Grappler on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 10:33pm
Hmmm... just hmmmm...
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http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl
General Discussion >> General Board >> Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1446463185 Message started by Greens_Win on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:19pm |
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Title: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:19pm
Paul Ehrlich on qanda
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/coming_up.htm#PAUL_EHRLICH Stated teaching children fictional religions is child abuse. So why is this child abuse acceptable? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:24pm
shut up idiot ... q & A hasn't started here yet and now you've spoilt it for me.
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:27pm John Smith wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:24pm:
Then I will not mention the shoe throwing. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by freediver on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:28pm
Do you agree Greens? I know you want the government to take children away from non-vegetarian families. How about religious families also?
Is there anyone, other than yourself, who the government should not be taking children away from? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:30pm
Scaring children will demons, torture, and so on, of course is child abuse.
As for taking children away from parents who are purposely abusing and damaging children. Definitely. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by freediver on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:33pm
I can see this getting long and tedious. Can we skip to the bit where you say who should be allowed to keep their children? Do you trust other Greens supporters?
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:34pm ____ wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:19pm:
Q & A ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Is that the best you could do Q & A ? ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:35pm John Smith wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:24pm:
;D ;D The kiddies are squabbling.... ::) |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:38pm He Man wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:35pm:
isn't it the womans job to watch the kiddies? well, what are you waiting for, go and |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:39pm John Smith wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:38pm:
I was telling grandma Mothra. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:42pm freediver wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:33pm:
Children are not possessions. Community are responsible and when we as a community are getting it wrong, then it's everyone's responsibility to correct it. So can religious people understand the link between religious teaching and child abuse. Can you? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by freediver on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:45pm
Would you like me to rephrase the question to make it sound more politically correct to take children from their parents?
When do you not see it as everyone's responsibility to fix what parents are getting wrong? Can only Greens supporters get it right? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Honky on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:46pm ____ wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:19pm:
And yet, just a few short days ago, you and the rest of the leftist circus was arguing until you were blue in the face about how moslems in years 2 - 6 were right to place their religion above simple respect for the community in which they live. Would you Care to explain the inconsistency? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:48pm freediver wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:45pm:
The debate is if religious teaching is child abuse. You seem to be attempting to put the cart before the horse. Is religious teaching child abuse? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:51pm ... wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:46pm:
This will be good. *Fires up the Hookah* |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:51pm ... wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:46pm:
The only statement I made on a muslim thread in the last few days is 'this is a storm in a teacup' and stopped reading. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:52pm ____ wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:51pm:
Why was it a storm in a teacup ? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:56pm He Man wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:52pm:
Because it was a minor misunderstanding. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Honky on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 10:05pm
M apologies, The forums leftwads were all for it, so I assumed you would have been one of them.
Would you say that religious teaching is child abuse, because it contributes to making children into disrespectful, separatist jerks? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Wolseley on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 10:21pm ____ wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:19pm:
Because it isn't child abuse. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by The Grappler on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 10:33pm
Hmmm... just hmmmm...
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:22am Wolseley wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 10:21pm:
FOR the first 25 years of her life, Joy Nason lived in constant fear of “God’s wrath” — to the point where death was a better option than confessing her sins. The Neutral Bay woman has opened up about her childhood as a member of the Exclusive Brethren church in her book Joy and Sorrow. The book goes into depth about growing up in a family that belonged to an evil cult and how she is “surviving and thriving” after escaping. She was born in Bristol, England and her family migrated to Australia in 1953. She said while her parents were kind, the Brethren’s grip on the family only tightened. The family lived at Croydon Park in a regular house but were required to attend daily meetings of the Brethren. Edicts included no television, no toys, no pets, no contact with outsiders and an intimidating culture of confessing sins. Part of the reason she left to seek sanctuary with a former Exclusive Brethren member was her fear of not being a fit and proper person for the church. She writes in the book that she had ``become a brainwashed soul, living in dread of God’s wrath’’. “Time after time I would shake so much sitting next to my mother in the meetings, I was sure she would notice,’’ said Nason. “I was terrified that my sins might warrant a confession and figured I’d rather die than let this happen.’ However, Nason says her only real “sin” at the time was a desire to experience the outside world. Nason was well aware that by leaving the Brethren she would be cut off from her family (except for three of her seven siblings who had left the Brethren) and may never see her parents again. When her mother died, it was made very clear to Nason that she could not attend the funeral. Earlier her father had been excommunicated from the cult for questioning their ideas and separated from his wife. “It broke his heart,’’ says Nason. http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newslocal/north-shore/i-was-raised-in-a-religious-cult-new-book-joy-and-sorrow-details-life-in-the-exclusive-brethren/story-fngr8h9d-1227499803951 currently apx 15000 E.B members in Australia. Was this women exposed to child abuse via religious teaching? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:44am
Circumcision ruling condemned by Germany's Muslim and Jewish leaders
German court rules that procedure is bodily harm and contravenes right to choose religion in later life A judge at a Cologne court said that the circumcision of minors went against a child's interests because it led to a physical alteration of the body, and because people other than the child were determining its religious affiliation. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/27/circumcision-ruling-germany-muslim-jewish |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:46am
Australian survivors of female genital mutilation call for access to restorative surgery
Jools was a baby when her adoptive mother saw her touching herself and decided to cut her. Her adoptive parents were "conservative Christian fundamentalists", she says, and regularly abused her. Now, as a survivor of female genital mutilation (FGM), she is one of many calling for access to clitoral restoration surgery — not readily available for Australia — to restore her sexual function. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-23/survivors-of-female-genital-mutilation-want-restorative-surgery/6640920 |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:47am
Judge allows blood transfusion for Jehovah’s Witness boy, against parents’ wishes
A BRISBANE hospital will be allowed to give a boy, 7, a life-saving blood transfusion during a planned liver transplant, against the wishes of his Jehovah’s Witness parents. http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/judge-allows-blood-transfusion-for-jehovahs-witness-boy-against-parents-wishes/story-fnn8dlfs-1227414622305 |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ex Dame Pansi on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:12am ____ wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:47am:
Thank goodness for sanity. I hope the parents don't punish that kid for the next ten years because he has 'bad blood'. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by aquascoot on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:18am
religions should be up beat.
some of them are very dour. schools should be upbeat the feminist leftard agenda is very dour. i'm sure that both can damage the impressionable minds of young children catholic guilt mixed with leftard apologies and self loathing...the very worst of both worlds. who'd have thunk we'd need armies of "headspace" workers to tend to the negative neuroitc anxious bed wetting teenagers we are producing. yet another industry that feeds off its own creation. thankfully, by making my kids read steven covey , they are positive go-getters. Self Help and Positive psychology are the religions of the sensible parent and school |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ex Dame Pansi on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:28am I read Karl Marx books, but I would never have made my kids read them. I didn't care what books my kids read as long as they were reading. you won't broaden their minds by making them into scoot clones. Reading is such a personal choice. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by red baron on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:31am
How can possibly God's teaching be labelled as child abuse.
God taught us above all to love and forgive each other. God did not teach the mutations of sects passing themselves off as Christian. Did God not say, "suffer little children and come unto me." There is a lot of hate out there, a lot of groups passing themselves off as God's messengers. Any religion that teaches hate and anger is no messenger of God. Keep it simple, keep it pure and teach children the love that God has for all of us. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by aquascoot on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:40am Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:28am:
go to the library and lots of successful people have written their autobiographies. they have written down how they were successful and you can read it for free. And by the way....karl Marx hasnt been that successful, has he, as the USSR and China turn to free enterprise (high 5) sure beats reading the national curriculum black armband view of history or the ludicrous chanting of leftard neurotics who want to BOTR ;) |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:42am red baron wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:31am:
unless you're an Islamic asylum seeker, right Red? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by aquascoot on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:46am John Smith wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:42am:
the islamists seem quite hateful. sunnis gassing shia, shia blowing up sunnis, putting people in cages and burning them alive, beheading homosexuals, stoning adulteresses , i think red is quite justified to say that christianity is a more peaceful religion and more deserving of our support. to not think so is Naive ;) |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 8:15am
Isnt the real question about the VALIDITY and TRUTH of the Christian religion? If it is indeed true or even substantially true, shouldn't the state mandate Christian education and take children away from atheist parents?
This is the flip-side of Greens typically idiotic Opening Post. It starts with an assumption that is untested and unproven. If we decided to go down the route of taking peoples kids away from them then we should most definitely taken them away from gays and from atheists. Now if you can PROVE Christianity wrong then you have a point, but until that time you have to accept that perhaps it is true and it is YOU than needs to have kids taken away from. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:24am
"Religious Teaching" is more broad than just one religion and so if you want to argue the merits of a certain religion Maria, this thread is not the place. Start a new thread.
And as far as taking children away, that was suggested by freediver. Now the stolen generation here in Australia was driven by religious beliefs. Another link with religion and child abuse. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Kytro on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:58am mariacostel wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 8:15am:
There is no more perhaps it is true than any other religion, including things like Scientology. There are many specific claims the religion makes that are almost certainly not true. The entire basis for the religion is completely unreasonable in any case. It's rather clear why people believe it and how it came to be prominent. There is not a single good reason to believe the supernatural claims the religion makes. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Muttley on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:05am John Smith wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:24pm:
Poor Jack, what a disappointment for him..... ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:09am mariacostel wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 8:15am:
There are no primary sources that Jesus even existed, let alone did all the things that were written in the Bible. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:16am Kytro wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:58am:
Nor any proof to debunk it either. That is why in matters of religion we give FREEDOM - something Greens apparently does not support. Why not takes kids away from people who believe the Climate Change Hysterical Lies? That is also a religion. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:18am Stratos wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:09am:
Well now you are just seeking to be dense - and succeeding. The proof of Jesus' existence is enormous and is accepted as fact by historians. There are plenty of eye-witness accounts. If you want to debate the topic of religion don't start by bringing in such obvious nonsense. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by innocentbystander. on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:18am John Smith wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:42am:
Do unto others as they would do unto you. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:20am mariacostel wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:18am:
Give me one. I've had this discussion before, and i can pretty much predict what you are going to post. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Kytro on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:23am mariacostel wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:16am:
Certainly some claims it makes can be debunked, but more seriously, the supernatural claims it makes can be safely ignored. Effectively extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which isn't provided. Climate change is science, it actually has evidence. There are certainly political aspects to the consequences, but to claim climate science is akin to religion show a fundamental misunderstanding of what science is and how it accumulates evidence. You may want to dispute the evidence or models, but the evidence is there. Religion does not have this. It just has claims without any corresponding evidence. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by MumboJumbo on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:34am
I think that greens_whine reproducing is child abuse.
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ex Dame Pansi on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:39am Stratos wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:20am:
There's none. It's hearsay...not heresy. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:40am innocentbystander. wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:18am:
I do ... I know lots of muslims, most are nice. I can't say the same about others. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:42am mariacostel wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:16am:
just not to muslims? right? :D :D :D |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:44am Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:39am:
I'm still waiting. I do enjoy this conversation. Many people get regularly lied to by their pastors (like I was) about the historical reliability of Jesus. I was really quite shocked when I started looking into it myself, and was a big part of why I started questioning my faith. I don't think they do it on purpose, just that they repeat what they were told without investigating. Not a single piece of evidence from when Jesus was supposed to have lived even exists, it's quite remarkable. As always I'm happy to be proven wrong on this. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Kytro on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:57am Stratos wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:09am:
A historical Jesus is largely irrelevant to the Jesus of the Bible. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:58am mariacostel wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:16am:
So you support mutilating children's sexual organs on the grounds of religious freedom. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:14am |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by aquascoot on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:21am
I feel sorry for people who dont have a spiritual side.
explaining spirituality to a zealous aetheist is like explaining an orgasm to a virgin. they will never understand until they experience it and they live a mediocre life until they do. i suppose at least theyve got ebay and facebook to make their lives meaningful ;) ;) How pitiful ;) ;) If you have been exposed to the great teachings of the worlds spiritual geniuses and you choose to ignore the ancient teachings you have... Messed Up ;) |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:27am aquascoot wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:21am:
you assume, wrongly, that those that don't believe in god aren't spiritual ... I think you can be both. Every time I walk out in the warm sun, every time I hear the sound of the waves crashing on the beach, every time I feel the caress of a beautiful woman, its a spiritual experience. I don't need to believe in fairy tales to be spiritual. ;) |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:31am aquascoot wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:21am:
I've had heaps of discussions with spiritual atheists. Maybe you should meet some Buddhists? aquascoot wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:21am:
Just because you don't buy into everything doesn't mean you can't appreciate these things. There are aspects of Christian teaching I like, same as those found in Islam, Buddhism etc. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Kytro on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:33am aquascoot wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:21am:
Spirituality is an aspect of humanity, there is no denying that, but it need not be supernatural nonsense. It's perfectly possible to get spiritual fulfilment from mindfulness and connection with others. In essence the connection with something bigger than ourselves and the search for meaning doesn't need mystery. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:44am
There is nothing wrong with teaching kids religion at primary school.
I remember my religious instructor at primary school and basically at that level the message is right from wrong. Their not trying to turn you into a priest or a theologian. If nothing else it teaches you respect. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:47am ____ wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:58am:
You're confusing tribal rituals with religion. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:51am Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:44am:
I too have no issue with it. Religion forms a very important part of our history and many cultures throughout the world. It's when you teach one faith as fact to the exclusion of all other I start to get a bit annoyed. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:54am John Smith wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:27am:
You spiritual ;D ;D ;D you are sorely deluded. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 12:02pm Stratos wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:51am:
Christianity, Islam and Judaism basically all have the same God, so for these to teach the others are inferior is silly. I have never been to a church be it Protestant, Anglican, Catholic or Orthodox where I have heard a priest put down another religion. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 12:03pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:47am:
Tribal rituals are religion. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 12:03pm LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:54am:
maybe, but you'll always be an idiot. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 12:10pm ____ wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 12:03pm:
Are they..........????......LMFAO...... ::) I think you better find out the meaning of both these words. 1. Tribal ritual 2. Religion |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Sir Bobby on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 12:18pm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RT6rL2UroE |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 12:22pm Bobby. wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 12:18pm:
I bet when George is on his death bed he'll think of God. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 12:32pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 12:10pm:
Circumcision. elective surgery performed on neonates and children for religious and cultural reasons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision And now we have gone full circle and are back at mutilating children's sexual organs because of religion. My original question is still waiting on an answer. This religious enforcement onto children, is it child abuse? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Sir Bobby on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 1:06pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 12:22pm:
He's already dead. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ex Dame Pansi on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 1:10pm aquascoot wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:21am:
Being spiritual and being religious is two very different things. Spiritual people are grounded, they are extremely sensitive to their soul and mind. They take time out to meditate in order to free themselves from excesses. They let go of their ego and embrace humanity as one. They strive to be in sync with wisdom, nature and the living world around them. Spiritual people don't have any particular god but they are free to choose their god.....the god of their own understanding. Religious people follow an unseen god through faith and instructions written in their selective guidebooks. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 1:24pm ____ wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 12:32pm:
There is no place in the bible where it says males should be circumcised. This is a ritual practiced by Jews who also introduced it to Muslims and other north African peoples. I'm Orthodox basically I pray to the same God that Jews and Muslims pray to yet I'm not circumcised. Its a ritual thing developed in tribes not by religion. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ex Dame Pansi on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 1:24pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PiZSFIVFiU
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 1:32pm ____ wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 12:32pm:
Like I said if nothing else it teaches them respect and right from wrong. Things that grow the character not inhibit it. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ex Dame Pansi on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 1:34pm Stratos wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:44am:
They don't like you to question them. They expect you to believe what they tell you through faith. The clergy take it personally if you doubt their teachings, like they are the ones that made that sh1t up. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 1:34pm Bobby. wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 1:06pm:
DOOHHH, my bad may he RIP. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 1:50pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 1:24pm:
Yet that isn't the debate. Circumcision and other forms of mutilations forced onto children on religious grounds is child abuse. Yes or no. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Kytro on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 1:53pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 12:22pm:
I have always wondered why people think this. Death may be something that some people fear, but that does not mean they will just change their entire viewpoint. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 1:58pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 1:32pm:
Most religions don't do a great job of teaching respect OR right from wrong if you are doing it strictly. I mean, first commandment, bam, you'll be punished for thought crime. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:00pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 1:32pm:
You say mutilations of children's sexual organs grows character. How? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:16pm ____ wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:00pm:
You're not listening I said religious instructions at primary school level teaches them respect and right from wrong. Where did I say that sh!t you wrote above...? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:19pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 1:24pm:
Mutilation was spoken about here. You denied it was used in religions. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:23pm ____ wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:19pm:
Mutilation is a ritual practiced by tribes of people. Show me where in the religious doctrine it says to mutilate children's genitals? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:29pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:23pm:
Genesis 17:10=14 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” There are later passages that go on to say that it is completely pointless too however. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:34pm Stratos wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:29pm:
Well I'm not circumcised and I pray to the same God. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Sir Bobby on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:36pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 1:34pm:
At least he's not burning forever in hell fire & damnation. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:43pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:23pm:
[viii] The fact that circumcision of both males and females was based on Mohammad’s sunna is not in dispute. The reader can consult the books of Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. https://copticliterature.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/circumcision-and-the-copts-a-history-part-ii/ |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:49pm ____ wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:43pm:
I'm against genital mutilation, in my religion it doesn't even come into the equation. Must be because ancient Greeks thought that the removal of your foreskin truly left you naked with the head of the penis exposed......... :D |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:49pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:34pm:
You pray to the God that allegedly wrote that passage demanding all people who are his to circumcise themselves? I really don't care, but that is a pretty clear instruction to circumcise men from a deity. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:52pm Stratos wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:49pm:
I haven't read the old testament enough to know about it, but you yourself said that in later passages the bible says its useless to be circumcised anyhow...?? So why do it. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 3:27pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 2:52pm:
Excellent question. God gives a pretty clear reason in the passage there apparently. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 3:30pm Stratos wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 3:27pm:
Well Stratos if you're Greek you know all about orthodoxy and that we don't practice circumcision. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 3:34pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 3:30pm:
But you can see based on that passage it could be seen as a direct instruction from a deity to circumcise boys yes? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 3:37pm Stratos wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 3:34pm:
Based on that yes it seems so. But what of the passages that say its useless to circumcise males....???? What do they go on to say. Maybe this was something to do with the Jews..??..only and not the Gentiles...??? I don't know just speculating. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 4:14pm Kytro wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:23am:
Climate Science is very much a religion. It has its high priests (mann and Gore etc). It has its scriptures (IPCC reports) and its adherents who sprout the same thing day in day out predicting doom and gloom while having a success rate of zero percent. Climate science is easily the most discredited science in the word today. It is no more accurate that astrology and alchemy. When they actually get something RIGHT, things might change, but at the moment, a Climate Hysteric is believing in something, unproven at best and frequently DISproven. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Soren on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 4:20pm ____ wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:51pm:
If what Erlich says, on Q&A ore anywhere else, is not the ultimate definition of a storm in a teacup, what is?? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 4:20pm Stratos wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:44am:
It would not be hard, but I suspect the problem is that you would NOT be happy to be proven wrong. I've debated this with plenty of people in real life and I know how this plays out. You accept without question the standard historical figures of the past such as Plato or Socrates and Alexander the Great with levels of proof way below that of Jesus. But when it comes the Jesus, the standard of proof suddenly rises to the unobtainable and voila... you think you have made a point. The problem with questions like the existence of God or the historicity of Jesus is that these are not and cannot be simple academic questions. To admit to either it is to recognise a significant truth which you find unacceptable. It is the same reason evolution is embraced despite the massive problems with it - not to mention the impossibility of it - because the only alternative is Creation which implies God and that is a 100% unacceptable answer. I am not being rude but you are NOT happy to be proven wrong or to even accept the possibility because to do so implies something of very deep significance. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 4:21pm John Smith wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 11:27am:
You clearly don't understand the meaning of 'spiritual' which is unsurprising since you don't seem to be cognizant of the meanings of most words. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 4:22pm ____ wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 12:03pm:
Rubbish. The Melbourne Cup is a 'tribal ritual'. It is not a religion. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 4:24pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 1:24pm:
Circumcision was an Old Testament covenant with God. Some still do it for hygiene reasons. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 4:40pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 4:14pm:
Touche, nicely said...... :) |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 5:05pm Soren wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 4:20pm:
Nice of you to consider child abuse a storm in a teacup. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by double plus good on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 5:09pm
All the fear coming out of the leftards stupid mouths is child abuse. Firstly it's the ozone layer, then the dams would dry up and now the caps are melting etc etc etc. Kids must be petrified. The idiot that made that comment on Q&A wrote a book saying the world would starve by the 1980's. I wouldn't believe a word this retard says.
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 5:18pm
This entire topic is abusive to my eyes.
I doubt they'll ever recover from the shock and insanity of what they've just read :-/ |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Soren on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 5:52pm ____ wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 5:05pm:
Oh, you emoting, po-faced little Nazi, you. Just because you or Erlich assert something as child abuse it doesn't make it so. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Jovial Monk on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:03pm
Yeah, religious instruction in school time is child abuse. Believe me, I know! I went to a Catholic primary school here. Prayer, RI, confession and Mass etc cut into learning time.
When I went to public HS I had to work hard for a term to catch up. I am pretty bright and I had the advantage of 4 years education in Holland—much advanced over here (in the 1950s.) Waste of time talking about invisible sky fairies! |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:15pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 4:20pm:
Woah woah woah. I just ask for one of your eyewitnesses and you totally dodge the question. You said there were a bunch of eyewitnesses and I'm curious to who you mean by this, as I have come across none in quite a lot of research. Please, give me the names of people you think were eyewitnesses of Jesus and I'll check them out and see if they stack up. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:18pm Stratos wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:15pm:
The first four books of the New Testament are eye-witness accounts. You do not get to reject them just because they are in the Bible. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:25pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:18pm:
Whose eye witnessed it then? The Gospels are all anonymously authored. edit: also, most estimates seem to think the gospels were penned around 70 AD at the earliest, which makes the possibility of it being an eyewitness account pretty slim, even if you did know who wrote them. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:35pm Stratos wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:25pm:
And here we go with the predictable responses as stated previously. The Gospels are NOT anonymously authored at all as an even cursory reading would recognise. Do you think a biography written today of a now-dead person constitutes fraud? Of course not. These eye-witness accounts were written around 30 years after the event. Now you may be able to believe that some of the details were fuzzy, but the EXISTENCE of a historical Jesus is not. You need to follow a conspiracy theory to believe that everyone was intent on creating a mythical figure and all the books and other information about him was fraudulent. And then you need to accept that the dozen of so proofs of the existence of Plato are all you need to accept his existence. I predicted that you would go to the extremist position and you did not disappoint. Why do you feel it is so absolutely necessary to discount and discredit eye-witness accounts - and substantial quantities of information at that - about Jesus but accept without question any other historical figure? Does that not speak to YOUR motivations? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:49pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:35pm:
OK then , balls in your court. Who authored the four Gospels? Names please, and who they were. mariacostel wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:35pm:
So your eyewitness was what, at least 80? Mighty old for those days. You seem quite confident you know who they are, so I hope this matches up with who you think wrote the gospels that go through details of before he was apparently born. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by double plus good on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:50pm
Some of the people on here knocking Christianity wouldn't dare knock Islam????? :-? :-? :-?
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:57pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:18am:
Just a recap on maria's original claim. 'enormous proof' |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:01pm double plus good wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:50pm:
I'm happy to have the same argument with any Muslim. In fact, there was a Koran dated recently, and it is older apparently than Muhammad. Poses some serious doubts about it huh? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by double plus good on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:04pm Stratos wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:01pm:
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Kytro on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:17pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 4:14pm:
Al Gore is politician. Mann is however a specialist. It's like claiming physics is religion because people take Stephen Hawking seriously. Nobody has been predicting doom and gloom right now, so saying stuff that is supposed to have happen hasn't yet happened is pointless. Climate science isn't "discredited". It's controversial with the general public, but not with scientists. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Kytro on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:18pm double plus good wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:50pm:
Perhaps, but I'm not one of them. It's based on the same basic story, so it suffers from the same flaws at least. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by double plus good on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:22pm
In one breathe that he's telling the audience to respect the choice of Muslims not to sing the national anthem and in the other he's calling religion child abuse. So he's telling people to respect religious choice and then he demeans these same people. I believe he's been licking cane toads. Very strange.
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:23pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 4:21pm:
you're right. ... spirituality is believing in some pretend overlord who reigns over everything, is omni present, has the power to do everything or anything but chooses to do nothing, and let millions of his creations which he loves suffer needlessly let me guess, you'd do the same for your kids to wouldn't you? you'd just sit back and watch them suffering and then sit in judgement of them ;D ;D ;D you're an idiot Maria, you prove that each and every time you make a post. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:25pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 4:22pm:
Rubbish, Melbourne cup it is not a tribal ritual it is a sport. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:26pm John Smith wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:25pm:
Joan the Melbourne cup is a bloody Cup you Muppet... ::) |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by double plus good on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:27pm John Smith wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:25pm:
You idiots are always whinging you want them to respect our religious beliefs, then you need to also respect theirs. No one is stopping you from singing the anthem. Now you are knocking religious people. Defend then criticize?????? Make up your mind. :D :D :D :D |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:27pm double plus good wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:04pm:
Pretty sure you are mistaken. If you feel differently, feel free to link to posts of mine where I "continually defend Islam" |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by double plus good on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:32pm Stratos wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:27pm:
There is a religious minority that on principle does not sing any national anthems because their beliefs state that they belong to their God and not to any earthly country. They have been doing this since their inception and also do not participate in any commemorations of armed conflict such as ANZAC day. Funnily enough I've never heard anybody complain about Jehovah's Witnesses doing this however. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:33pm double plus good wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:27pm:
I think anyone who believe any of the organised religions is an idiot, be they christian, Muslim, jewish, orthodox, Hari Krishna or whatever religion you want to name. I will however defend your right to believe them if you so choose. Yes, the Islamics are stupid to have a month of mourning, but that's their choice to make, not yours. You don't get to tell them their religion is wrong and yours is right. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:34pm He Man wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:26pm:
and the ashes are just ashes :D :D :D |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:35pm John Smith wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:34pm:
Are you thick or something ? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by double plus good on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:37pm John Smith wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:33pm:
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 8:50pm double plus good wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:37pm:
Double, you can dislike beliefs but still support a person's right to hold one. I'm no fan of any organised religion but i'll go to the wall to defend a person's right to believe in whatever they want to, providing they are not hurting anyone. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 8:53pm mothra wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 8:50pm:
Then why complain about his post gran. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:13pm double plus good wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:37pm:
Do you even know what that means? I doubt it or you would never have used it in that context. I haven't backtracked from anything you doofus. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:15pm John Smith wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:13pm:
He said you were a numpty. Numpty Scottish usage: a) Someone who (sometimes unwittingly) by speech or action demonstrates a lack of knowledge or misconception of a particular subject or situation to the amusement of others. b) A good humoured admonition, a term of endearment c) A reckless, absent minded or unwise person a) "No. That wisnae wit she meant, ya big numpty!" b) i.e. "Silly billy", "You big dafty" c) "That numpty's driving with no lights on!" |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:17pm He Man wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:15pm:
Who cares what he says? ... he's nearly as dumb as you. Not quite, but almost. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:19pm John Smith wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:17pm:
Judging from your post I'd say you were (a) a) Someone who (sometimes unwittingly) by speech or action demonstrates a lack of knowledge or misconception of a particular subject or situation to the amusement of others. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:21pm John Smith wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:17pm:
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:24pm John Smith wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:21pm:
Judging from your post I'd say you were (a)...... a) Someone who (sometimes unwittingly) by speech or action demonstrates a lack of knowledge or misconception of a particular subject or situation to the amusement of others. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:32pm
Who cares what he says? ... he's nearly as dumb as you. Not quite, but almost.
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:44pm John Smith wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:32pm:
Copycatting doesn't count. For that I give you a Zero : - 0/10 |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:46pm John Smith wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:32pm:
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 9:48pm
Too little too late 1/10 for the color change.
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by The Grappler on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:18pm mothra wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 8:50pm:
I disagree with your opinion entirely, but I will defend to the death your right to hold it. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 4th, 2015 at 6:35am Stratos wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 6:49pm:
They were authored by their namesakes. And how is it difficult for you to accept that people knew history? So the authors wrote of (a little) pre-Christ history? Do you know any history? Look, this is going the very boring and very predictable way it always does. You make your claim of there being no proof of Jesus and then refuse to accept any and all evidence. It is old and utterly invalid. The Bible is considered to be a very accurate and significant historical record by historians. You can refute that all you like and undoubtedly will. But your arguments against historicity are ideological or anti-religious. You seek an outcome, not the truth. This is a pointless exercise if you are going to reject out-of-hand every bit of evidence supplied. By the way, Plato is a myth. There is no evidence to support his existence. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 4th, 2015 at 6:37am Kytro wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 7:17pm:
Mann is a shonky scientist whose Hockey Stick has been thoroughly debunked. He was part of ClimateGate and even now continues to push lie after lie after scientific lie. There are literally handfuls of books written to debunk him and his junk science. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Kytro on Nov 4th, 2015 at 6:47am mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 6:37am:
Really find me some examples of where a paper of his has been retracted? I'm willing to bet you can't because it's not the scientific community that largely has an issue with his behaviour. ClimateGate, the the scandal that never was. A combined total of no less than 9 investigations by the UK government and independent ethics committees found no evidence of fraud or manipulation of data. Selectively quoted emails by the media isn't better evidence than the investigations. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Phemanderac on Nov 4th, 2015 at 6:48am mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 6:35am:
Well the evidence of his existence is as valid as that of JC or Mo at least. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Phemanderac on Nov 4th, 2015 at 6:52am
Religious teaching is child abuse, well, at least that is the stated opinion of one person...
Others may agree with this too. The same person said though that people beliefs should be respected - he stated his beliefs, they might appear disrespectful, however, he is not making threats, censoring, shutting down or berating believers, simply putting his point of view... Isn't that his right? I think organised religion is our biggest failing as a sentient species - if people chose to follow their myth so be it. I also have this idea that live and let live is not a bad philosophy. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 4th, 2015 at 7:05am Kytro wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 6:47am:
If you really want to debate this then I expect you to do some reading. Now, you are certainly one of the more credible debaters since you actually possess a brain and a degree of integrity. There are several books that debunk the Hockey Stick from a scientific basis despite all the efforts by Mann to frustrate them (in defiance of accepted scientific protocols). For instance, were you aware that his claim that the Medieval Warm period never existed is based literally on the evidence of the rings of a single north American tree? His statistical model has been repudiated by virtually everyone - including the world's top experts. When his statistical model was finally discovered it was found to be so 'robust' that no matter what data you put into it, a hockey stick was produced. EU exchange rates over 20 years produced... a hockey stick. One of Manns co-authors has also said of late that the original report is fatally flawed. And you might want to read the entire outcomes of the many investigations into Mann and the behaviour of his cohorts. They are not nearly as supportive as you think. One American enquiry that 'exonerated' him of fraud also said that his hockey stick was bad science. You only read that he was exonerated. So, are you seriously up for a detailed debate? If so, so am I. Just as a footnote, one author was sued by Mann for defamation when he said his HS was rubbish. It is now going to court. When the time came for amicus briefs to be submitted in support for each side, the author had dozens while Mann had literally none. Science it self might be happy to tolerate him but in a court of law, they want nothing to do with him. Even the IPCC has dumped the HS as has pretty much everyone else. Thoughts? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 4th, 2015 at 7:06am Phemanderac wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 6:48am:
Actually, the evidence for plato is several orders of magnitude LESS than for Jesus. You can't have it both ways. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 4th, 2015 at 7:08am Phemanderac wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 6:52am:
And yet, religion is what has founded nations, schools, health, art and music. Today, the majority of social work is done by the Church, especially in foreign countries. I think describing it as a failing is more than a bit harsh. In many way, I hate to imagine what an atheist society would be like - except that I don't. USSR and communist China are some examples to look at. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 4th, 2015 at 7:44am mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 6:35am:
Lol, and you think they were eyewitnesses. Quite funny. Are you aware that according to tradition, to pick an example, the author of Luke was supposed to have learnt his things from Paul, not Jesus? And Jesus never even met Paul! So the author was not an eyewitness, his source wasn't an eyewitness, and isn't a person you can actually identify from history. ;D You need to check your facts better, or actually research these things. I'm surprised you would just think that all of these books even claim to be primary sources. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 4th, 2015 at 7:49am mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 6:35am:
possibly, but the stories of plato aren't accompanied by calls for donations and power, therefore they are more credible the stories of jesus were spread by those with a political agenda, the bible was just a means to an end. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Kytro on Nov 4th, 2015 at 7:49am mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 7:05am:
I don't really know much about Mann per se. Basically just that he is a climate scientist. Scientists of course can be corrupt, or wrong or deluded. They are not super-human. The peer-review process, while imperfect is better than anything else we have. My comments were more broadly focussed. Climate science, like all science continues to adapt to new information, but the overall conclusions have not altered for some time, even if the exact details have. I don't really want to debate based purely on a person, but the overall state of climate science is controversial only politically. There are detractors of course, and the viewpoints they have should be considered like any other - via the scientific method. The idea the climate science is uniquely divided is a fiction. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 4th, 2015 at 7:59am Kytro wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 7:49am:
Do yourself a favour and read a couple of the books on the Hockey Stick. Mann is (or was) a major player in the ACC movement and yet his intellectual and personal integrity is disgraceful. Ultimately, neither of us are scientists 'in the know'. We need to rely on what we are told. And to trust that we need scientists of absolute integrity and capability. You will find that Mann is neither and one Professor stated that his Hockey Stick work is so bad that the University should revoke his PhD! Just do yourself the favour of reading up on Mann and the hockey stick. There are a couple of great kindle books on Amazon. What you read will disgust you and probably shatter your impressions on the ACC movement. If the con that Mann pulled off took 15 years to be finally rejected - while being obviously wrong - then what are others doing? You up for it? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Kytro on Nov 4th, 2015 at 8:03am mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 7:59am:
I'll try to set aside some time, but he is only one scientist, so even if he has acted unethically it doesn't change the facts used to draw the current conclusions about climate change. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 4th, 2015 at 8:16am Kytro wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 8:03am:
Don't be so sure. When you see how wrong he was, how obvious it was and how the world's scientists fell over themselves to support the insupportable, you will question their integrity as well as their ability. It took 15 years for this garbage to be effectively debunked and thrown in the bin. It should have taken 10 minutes. But it supported the agenda and so it was accepted uncritically. And there is the problem at hand - uncritical support of information that appears to support your cause. Science has suffered by the uncritical acceptance of some rather obvious rubbish notions. You will find it very illuminating but also quite disturbing. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Kytro on Nov 4th, 2015 at 8:36am mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 7:59am:
Books are not scientific papers, so I'm somewhat sceptical of taking them at face value. A brief look shows that the hockey stick has been criticised, but hardly debunked. The criticism have been refuted or at least challenged, and while the initial work wasn't perfect (there were issues with some of the statistics) the problems wouldn't have affected the conclusion. I'm not sure what specifically you think is a problem with Mann's integrity. He feels that he has been defamed, which is why he is suing. He has filed suit. They tried to get the lawsuit dismissed under SLAPP - this was denied. They appealed to a different Judge - this was also denied. They have appealed again on the grounds of protected speech, with amicus briefs from various reporting / free speech organisations. That's it as far as I can see to date. There are lots of claims and counter claims, but little in the way of evidence. Climate scientists seem to be largely happy with the Hockey Stick, even if not all of the public are. Why should we listen to the smaller group of dissenters over the majority of climate scientists? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 4th, 2015 at 12:10pm Kytro wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 8:36am:
Would you like me to list the statements by 100 eminent scientist (both warmists and sceptics) who reject the hockey stick as very bad science? These even include people who are climate hysterics. Your statement (highlighted) is a bit disturbing as I don't know where you are getting your information from as it is very very wrong. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 4th, 2015 at 12:15pm
“Very few paleoclimatologists agreed to the shape of the curve.”
PROFESSOR PER HOLMLUND, PHD Professor of Glaciology at Stockholm University. Member of the national committee of geophysics at the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences, and if the International Meteorological Institute. Former Director of Tarfala Research Station, and member of many expeditions to the Arctic and Antarctic. Swedish member of the World Glacier Monitoring Service, the International Arctic Science Committee, the Scientific Committee for Antarctic Research, etc. “I would never have expected anything similar in such a… peaceful community as meteorology. Apparently it has been transformed.” PROFESSOR LENNART BENGTSSON, PHD Senior Research Fellow at the Environmental Systems Science Centre of the University of Reading. Recipient of the IMO Prize from the World Meteorological Organization and of the René Descartes Prize for Collaborative Research from the Nansen Environmental and Remote Sensing Centre Former Director of the Max Planck Institute for Meteorology and of the European Centre for Medium-Range Weather Forecasts. In May 2014, Professor Bengtsson, a man whose contributions to science far outweigh Michael Mann’s, revealed that he was joining the advisory board of the Global Warming Policy Foundation, a think-tank for rational skepticism founded in London by Nigel Lawson. Retribution from the “climate community” was swift and merciless. Less than two weeks later the 79-year old Swedish scientist announced "I have been put under such an enormous group pressure in recent days from all over the world that has become virtually unbearable to me. If this is going to continue I will be unable to conduct my normal work and will even start to worry about my health and safety. I see therefore no other way out therefore than resigning from GWPF. I had not expecting such an enormous world-wide pressure put at me from a community that I have been close to all my active life. Colleagues are withdrawing their support, other colleagues are withdrawing from joint authorship etc. I see no limit and end to what will happen. It is a situation that reminds me about the time of McCarthy. I would never have expecting [sic] anything similar in such an original peaceful community as meteorology. Apparently it has been transformed in recent years. Under these situation I will be unable to contribute positively to the work of GWPF and consequently therefore I believe it is the best for me to reverse my decision to join its Board at the earliest possible time. It has. For one thing, it's not “meteorology” anymore; it’s about saving the planet - and you can’t do that without breaking a few eggheads. After The Times of London ran a front page story on Bengtsson’s defenestration, Mann sneeringly Tweeted310: REAL story via @NafeezAhmed ‘Murdoch-owned media hypes lone meteorologist's #climate junk science’" …# denial So to Michael Mann Lennart Bengtsson is now “junk science”? Over the years, the two of them have collaborated on scientific conferences311. But a half-century of distinguished service to climate science - the directorships, the prizes, all the peer-reviewed papers, the shared platforms with the great Dr Mann - is swept into the garbage can of history, and Bengtsson is now just another “denier” peddling “junk science”. Steyn, Mark (2015-09-01). "A Disgrace to the Profession" (Kindle Locations 3522-3523). Stockade Books. Kindle Edition. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 4th, 2015 at 12:18pm
“Mann, Ehrlich and Rahmstorf: What a scurrilous bunch… They’re gravediggers of science.”
DANIEL S GREENBERG Founder of Science & Government Report, and former news editor of Science, the journal of the American Association for the Advancement of Science. Former Visiting Scholar at Johns Hopkins University’s Department of History of Science, Medicine and Technology. Former columnist for The Lancet and The New England Journal of Medicine. Recipient of the Columbia University Medal for Excellence. Creator of the fictional character Dr Grant Swinger, Director of the Center for the Absorption of Federal Funds. In 2010, Mr Greenberg, one of the most respected science writers, was invited to review a book for one of the most respected journals, Nature. Unfortunately, the author was one of Mann’s many enemies, and Greenberg was insufficiently hostile to it. So Mann, Paul Ehrlich and Stefan Rahmstorf felt obliged to remind Nature just who was boss "In our view, Daniel Greenberg's book review of The Climate Fix by Roger Pielke Jr (Nature 467, 526– 527; 2010) does a disservice to your readership by besmirching the integrity of the climate-research community" Interesting. Care to elaborate? Well, no. Time to move on to the ol’ #KochMachine #BigOil guilt-by-association shtick: Nature should have pointed out to its readers that Greenberg has served as a round-table speaker and written a report (see go.nature.com/ otwvz2) for the Marshall Institute (see go.nature.com/ 4u9ttd). Oh, my. As Mr Greenberg subsequently wrote to Professor Pielke308: Roger, Re my stirring experience of jousting with Mann, Ehrlich, and Rahmstorf: What a scurrilous bunch. My sympathy to you and anyone else who has to deal with them. They’re gravediggers of science… Below, my further exchanges with the low-life trio. The “further exchanges with the low-life trio” concluded thus: Dear Professors Mann, Ehrlich, and Rahmstorf, Your correspondence concerning my review of Roger Pielke’s book Climate Fix has provided me with a deeper understanding of the widespread public skepticism toward climate science. In your hands, apple pie and motherhood would come under public suspicion. Furthermore, your insinuation of an undisclosed relationship between me and a conservative think tank is preposterous. In 2006, I participated in a panel discussion sponsored by the Marshall Institute - as I have done with numerous other organizations… Nor did I, as you allege, write a report, or anything, for the Marshall Institute. The panel’s words were transcribed and published by the Institute. I wrote nothing for them. You guys are the devil’s gift to the Tea Party and other climate-change and evil “deniers” and “denialists”. I find these terms and the entire context for discussing my work offensive. I am not a “denialist” and my recent paper305 attributes about 40 per cent of recent warming to human activity… What I would deny is that tree rings are good thermometers, but this is a scientific view based on my knowledge of trees, not a political view… I have never received money from fossil fuel interests, as Mann states is true of all sceptics… My disagreements with the use of tree rings (by anyone, not just Mann) have nothing to do with a conspiracy, are not organized or directed by anyone, and are not personal. I just think tree rings (especially strip bark) are not valid more than about 100 years back in time… In his book, Mann also writes: By contrast with the hockey stick studies - and every other peer reviewed scientific article on the subject - Loehle claimed that medieval warm period temperatures were warmer than ‘20th century values.’ “Every” other article? Mann has just declared there is not one paper finding the MWP as warm or warmer than the present. That’s evidence of either insanity or a man trapped in his own impenetrable bubble. As Dr Loehle concludes: Mann’s setup for discussing my work is borderline libel… It is unacceptable to portray those who disagree with you scientifically as evil and politically motivated. Science is full to the brim with disagreements about everything, from which treatment is best for coronary blockage to whether frequentist or Bayesian methods are best. By Mann’s logic, we should all be using slanderous language to refer to anyone who disagrees with us. I don’t think so. Steyn, Mark (2015-09-01). "A Disgrace to the Profession" (Kindle Locations 3494-3519). Stockade Books. Kindle Edition. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 4th, 2015 at 12:19pm
“The work of Mann and his colleagues was initially accepted uncritically, even though it contradicted the results of more than 100 previous studies.”
DR DAVID DEMING, PHD Geologist, geophysicist and associate professor at the University of Oklahoma. Associate Editor of Petroleum Geoscience and Ground Water. Author of peer-reviewed papers published by Science and other journals, and of “Global warming, the politicization of science, and Michael Crichton’s State of Fear”, published in The Journal of Scientific Exploration. The Medieval Warm Period - when Greenland got its name and was extensively farmed, and vineyards flourished in much of England - was a matter of uncontroversial historical record. But, once you’ve decided to “repeal” it, it’s amazing how easy it is. On December 6th 2006 Dr Deming testified before the United States Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works52: I had another interesting experience around the time my paper in Science was published. I received an astonishing email from a major researcher in the area of climate change. He said, “We have to get rid of the Medieval Warm Period. 53” The Medieval Warm Period (MWP) was a time of unusually warm weather that began around 1000 AD and persisted until a cold period known as the Little Ice Age took hold in the 14th century. Warmer climate brought a remarkable flowering of prosperity, knowledge, and art to Europe during the High Middle Ages. The existence of the MWP had been recognized in the scientific literature for decades. But now it was a major embarrassment to those maintaining that the 20th century warming was truly anomalous. It had to be “gotten rid of.” In 1769, Joseph Priestley warned that scientists overly attached to a favorite hypothesis would not hesitate to “warp the whole course of nature.” In 1999, Michael Mann and his colleagues published a reconstruction of past temperature in which the MWP simply vanished. This unique estimate became known as the “hockey stick,” because of the shape of the temperature graph. Normally in science, when you have a novel result that appears to overturn previous work, you have to demonstrate why the earlier work was wrong. But the work of Mann and his colleagues was initially accepted uncritically, even though it contradicted the results of more than 100 previous studies. Other researchers have since reaffirmed that the Medieval Warm Period was both warm and global in its extent. Steyn, Mark (2015-09-01). "A Disgrace to the Profession" (Kindle Locations 752-768). Stockade Books. Kindle Edition. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 4th, 2015 at 12:54pm
Maria, I know you are caught up in a climate debate, but I was wondering if you are going to respond to my previous post about why the gospels are not primary sources?
If you are interested in how the gospels came to be, I recommend looking yourself into the Gospel of Mark (anonymously written), which is generally accepted to have had sections taken from it when the gospels of Luke and Matthew were written. As mentioned, the author of Luke does not claim to be any kind of eyewitness either, but having learnt from Paul. John's author was given a title ("the Disciple whom Jesus loved"), but no specific name, and there are many differing ideas on who actually this may be referring to. So, in summary. Mark (anonymous) Matthew (derived from Mark, anonymously written, no claim to being an eyewitness account) Luke (no claim to be a primary source in the first place) John (title given, no name, many differing theories on authorship) So I feel I have to ask again, who do you think wrote these books, and why do you believe they are eyewitness accounts, despite the fact the books themselves disagree with you? You mentioned there were other accounts too I believe, who are they? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Kytro on Nov 4th, 2015 at 12:57pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 12:10pm:
I don't really need a list of 100 people, but at the very least some of the leading organisations in climate research. I was just reading the Wikipedia page on the controversy, and look at its sources. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Sir lastnail on Nov 4th, 2015 at 2:03pm ____ wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:19pm:
Because there are too many votes in it from the god gobbers and their brainwashed followers !! Not only that they should pay tax on their takings just like any other business !! |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 4th, 2015 at 2:54pm Kytro wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 12:57pm:
Why not? They are not just 'people' but eminent scientists in the field. Excuse me for saying so, but that sounds like fishing for a reason to debunk something rather than searching for the evidence. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 4th, 2015 at 3:01pm Stratos wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 12:54pm:
Look, to be honest I don't have a great desire to do this debate with you because I've heard it all before and I know how it ends up. Despite the Gospels being accepted a generally reliable records, you will constantly claim they are not. Matthew was a disciple. He was there. He was an eye-witness. The Apostle Peter likewise was an eye-witness and in his writings (letters from peter) confirms the record and in places quotes from it. And on we go. The crux of the problem is that you will always find a reason to reject it and largely for bogus or subjective reasons, not rational ones. I will state right now that there is no chance you could prove the historical existence of Julius Caesar using the methodology you employ for Jesus. I will simply cast aspersions on the accuracy of every claim you make including the non-existence of any eye-witness accounts. The difference between the historical claims of Caesar and Christ is that only one made supernatural claims and that alone is why you reject the entire historical record. Because you reject any supernatural or religious commentary you feel you are right to therefore reject everything. It is bad scholarship and the reason why most historians do not dispute the historical Jesus. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Kytro on Nov 4th, 2015 at 3:03pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 2:54pm:
Well frankly because it's a lot of work going through a list of 100 people, but if you want to provide the list, I won't dismiss it out of hand. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Sir lastnail on Nov 4th, 2015 at 3:06pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 3:01pm:
Now show us a Jesus coin ;) |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Phemanderac on Nov 4th, 2015 at 3:07pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 7:06am:
No it isn't, that's the point. The overall belief about both is based on consensus by academics due to the lack of hard evidence. Now, that said, consensus is apparently a contentious issue. After all the comments about consensus in the context of the climate change argument (it is nothing like a debate after all), as such, it is you who can't have it both ways. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Phemanderac on Nov 4th, 2015 at 3:19pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 7:08am:
No it isn't, it was not because of religion that Australia was founded, certainly organised religion was along for the ride, but not the driver. Nations, schools, health, art and music occur regardless of organised religion, in fact, often times throughout history in spite of it. I think you present a very myopic view to be blunt. As to the "social work" how that actually works is that Organised Religious groups get funded, however, a significant share of the actual face to face workload is done by people of no specific religious affiliation, as it should be. Your clear lack of acknowledgment of the serious flaws, problems and hardships caused by the various groups of organised religious sects is very telling (and myopic). I don't say religion is necessarily flawed, I say that organised religion is problematic - I say that based on history, both modern and ancient. Humans have and continue to do heinous inhumane acts to each other in the name of their organised religion... That is a flaw of our species as such. mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 7:08am:
That is a somewhat polarised position - so, we either have organised religion or we have an atheist society... To ignore the harm that organised religion is responsible for is yet another flaw - that said, you are welcome to your opinion that my stated position on this is a bit harsh - I disagree, I think it very moderate and honest. After all, I am not demanding it be stopped, I am not calling for people who practice a faith of an organised religious group be exiled, imprisoned or penalised in anyway - I am simply saying I think it is a flaw that we may need to get over one day... I think it is more than a bit harsh after all for people who preach a faith to demonstrate, articulate and in some instances act on discriminatory opinions against those who either do not share their faith or are preachers/practitioners of another faith... |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Phemanderac on Nov 4th, 2015 at 3:19pm
The climate debate is a bit of religion (on both sides), however, the science is different to that.
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 4th, 2015 at 4:25pm Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 3:06pm:
Show us a plato coin. Show us an alexander the Great coin. And while you are at it, show us an Einstein coin. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 4th, 2015 at 4:27pm Phemanderac wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 3:07pm:
That is completely wrong! Historians don't decide on the veracity of historical claims based on consensus. They weight the evidence (which exists by the way) and come to conclusions. They have concluded that Jesus (and Plato) both existed largely in the manner in which they have been described. The evidence speaks. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 4th, 2015 at 4:31pm Phemanderac wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 3:19pm:
Your understanding of history is rather lamentable. Schools were founded by churches as were universities. It is only in relatively recent times that the state has become involved in these things. Take a look at the names of some of the oldest schools and universities. they are entirely church-founded schools. Mozart owed his life to church patronage as di Beethoven and so many others. Slavery of course was abolished largely at the behest of the Church. Social welfare was initially a Church-only function and even today, Churches do a great deal of the work. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 4th, 2015 at 4:59pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 3:01pm:
Nope nope nope. Find me one historian who believes based on evidence that the dead rose en masse and appeared to many people. mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 3:01pm:
I assume you mean the author of Matthew? You mean the one who was added in later to an anonymous letter? If you don't believe me, look into it yourself. It was generations later that it was even called the gospel according to Matthew. I'm surprised you know so little about the gospels :-? There were many MANY "messiahs" in the first century, and generally we have secular accounts of them. None for Jesus though, which is very very interesting. Ever heard of Simon of Perea? Probably not, not a great deal to know really. But he was significant enough messiah figure to be noticed by historians, whereas Jesus was not. Here is the wikipedia page on messianic claimants, give them a look sometime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants It is fascinating that so many were mentioned by historians, but there is nothing similar for Jesus. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 4th, 2015 at 5:06pm Stratos wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 4:59pm:
There we go... right into the supernatural events. You cannot accept the historicity of Jesus because of his Divine claims. And that is the entire story, isn't it. No secular accounts huh? Curious isn't it! Or it would be if it were true. And spare me Wikipedia... Don't debase yourself further by asking OTHER people to got a site where readers can edit the articles... Get serious. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 4th, 2015 at 5:08pm Stratos wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 4:59pm:
Hey Stratos I'm not qualified to act as though I under stand the passage about the dead rising as Jesus passes away on the cross. But in lay mans from my understanding this passage is a metaphor that signifies all those that had died previous to Jesus went to hell. No one went to heaven not even Moses or Abraham or Noah. When Jesus died he went to hell and freed all those deserving to go to heaven. Before Jesus death there was no heaven. You recon the ancient Greeks new this...LOL Every time they talked of dying they would always say tonight we or I dine in hades. That's my 2 cents worth. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 4th, 2015 at 5:13pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 5:06pm:
Supernatural, any other, doesn't matter. I just went for the most overtly ridiculous. Still, if it IS true, don't you think anyone in the area wouldn't have even made mention of a zombie apocalypse? All it would take is a single letter, a single record from the time when he was supposed to have lived, mentioning anything at all. But you can't produce that. mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 5:06pm:
It is true. No secular account of Jesus exists that was written during Jesus lifetime. For that matter, no account of him at all was written during his lifetime. Again, a fairly curious set of circumstances considering the nobodies that were mentioned at by historians during that time. If you have one, please post it. mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 5:06pm:
The historians' passages regarding the Messiah's are all in the annotations. I just thought that would be the easiest way to check them about. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 4th, 2015 at 5:16pm Ajax wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 5:08pm:
Except they claim to have met with real people. Quote:
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 4th, 2015 at 7:46pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:18am:
In case you forgot your original claim, this is what you seem to be avoiding, and I'm curious to see who you had in mind when you made this assertion. So far you have produced anonymous accounts, third hand accounts who never claimed to meet him, and accounts written generations after the events they describe. So can you back up your claim that there are "plenty of eye-witness accounts?" or will you retract this statement? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 5th, 2015 at 7:51am Stratos wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 7:46pm:
When you decide to unilaterally reject the bibles witness accounts then there is not a lot of point in continuing. It is like debating Climate Change with you. The only evidence you accept is that which agrees with you. Anything the supports the other side is rejected solely BECAUSE it supports the other side. This is no different. You lack the intellectual integrity to debate this issue with you. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 5th, 2015 at 7:57am mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 7:51am:
what bibles witness accounts? :D :D :D :D |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:08am
I clearly explained why the gospels are not eyewitness accounts.
The authors are not known, most people who have studied them believe they were written at the earliest around 70AD (the earliest surviving copies we have are much younger than that though), which is an entire generation after the events they depict (two generations for those that begin before Jesus ministry), and the fact that the books themselves make no such claim to eyewitness status. Please, read them again if you do not believe me, and look this up for yourself! The fact you were unaware that they do not claim to be eyewitnesses, and that you didn't know that the names of the books were not around for a long time suggests you need to look into this subject a little bit more. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by aquascoot on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:14am
this is just silliness.
Jesus was a complete nobody AT THE TIME OF THESE EVENTS. i believe pontius pilate was a roman govenor and we only have 1 peice of hard evidence of his existence. (a stone with his name on it). So it would be unbelievable that someone as un noteworthy at the time as jesus would have a birth certificate or tombstone or parking ticket or whatever the current bunch of idiots claim as "evidence" But it is beyond comprehension that he is a "made up character'. if you think he is made up, you are a dead set , intellectual midget ;) ;) |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:22am aquascoot wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:14am:
actually the Romans were great record keepers for their time... they have found thousands of old tax collection records etc. and yet, despite Jesus supposedly becoming Romes public enemy Number 1, and despite all the miracles, not once was he or any of the main cast of the show, ever mentioned in any of the records .... one would think that if any were true someone would have made a record of it somewhere? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Phemanderac on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:24am mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 4:27pm:
No it isn't completely wrong at all... Demonstrate the evidence then if, as you say it exists. The "conclusion" is agreed to, which by definition is a consensus. That conclusion by the way, is that, specifically in the case of Jesus at least, that he may have existed as a real person historically. No evidence supports his divinity though, that is purely faith based. So, the "manner in which they were described" is in fact not correct, far more accurate to say historians have concluded that they both existed... |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:25am aquascoot wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:14am:
According to the Bible, this is quite false. He had a devoted, dedicated following, and was renowned for upsetting the authorities at the time, ending in a huge public spectacle of an execution, if you believe the Bible. aquascoot wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:14am:
He is mentioned by several other historians, and was apparently widely known for his hatred of Jews. Which then puts him at odds with the gospels, when he decides to execute what he believed was an innocent man because of a Jewish Passover tradition, which all other accounts indicate he wouldn't have remotely cared about. In terms of the archaeological evidence, there is indeed the Pilate stone only so far. Maybe one day we'll find a single piece of archaeological evidence that supports Jesus existence in the first century? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:25am Stratos wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:08am:
Let's just grant for a moment that the authors are 'unknown'. How does that in any way reduce the veracity of the accounts? Let's also grant they were written 30 years after the events. How does that reduce the veracity of the accounts. Could you not write a detailed an accurate account of something you did 30 years ago? So giving you your two most important claims, how does that change anything? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Phemanderac on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:27am mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 4:31pm:
Well, the only reasonable response here is that your myopic view of history is rather lamentable. I have not said religion played no part, however, it is not the single driving factor. Further, I have used the term religion and not "Church" deliberately. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:43am Phemanderac wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:27am:
I am using the term Christian Church to mean religion since I assumed we were discussing western civilisation. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Phemanderac on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:46am
Well, I was pretty clear I think when I said organised religion...
I guess if to you that only means western religion then there is a whole lot more stuff to talk about. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by aquascoot on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:47am John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:22am:
romes public enemy number 1 ? :) :) at the time of his actual existence ? i think there would not have been a single person in rome at the time of his cruxificion who had even heard of him. Not 1 ;) |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:48am mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:25am:
They are unknown. At least until someone can demonstrate an author that is. Anonymous accounts are of course, useless unless they can be corrobarated with other evidence. If you found, say, a bunch of archaeological remains that could verify events the author wrote about then sure, you might start seeing it as a correct version of historical events, but we just don't see that. Not a single piece of evidence that Jesus even existed is there. mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:25am:
Life expectancy mostly. What are the chances that all of the authors could have witnessed the events, then lived another forty years (for Mark), or fifty years (for Luke and Matthew). This would make all four of the authors positively ancient for their time period. Not to mention that for Luke and Matthew, both of whose account begins before the birth of Jesus, would put them as extremely old even in today's modern age. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 5th, 2015 at 9:25am Stratos wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:48am:
You've never read a biography, have you? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Sir lastnail on Nov 5th, 2015 at 9:35am mariacostel wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 4:25pm:
No need for an Einstein coin ;) And did any of these other people claim to have survived after 3 days of cardiac arrest ? Common sense prevails that someone by the name of Jesus could never have existed except in a fictional story !! |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 5th, 2015 at 9:41am mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 9:25am:
Oh are you trying to move the goalposts now? You originally claimed that they were eyewitness accounts, now you just think they are biographies? Two very different things. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Sir lastnail on Nov 5th, 2015 at 9:44am Stratos wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 9:41am:
There is no evidence that Jesus ever existed other than what is documented in the equivalence of a Harry Potter novel !! |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 5th, 2015 at 9:58am Stratos wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 9:41am:
All you have done is shown that you will reject any and all evidence that is presented. And in the meantime, the best known and most revered character in all of history is Jesus Christ. Not bad for someone you claim never even existed. There is no evidence you would ever accept, is there? But plato? No problem. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Sir lastnail on Nov 5th, 2015 at 10:05am mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 9:58am:
Yes pray for Jesus to appear in front of us just like he appeared to many after his crucifixion ;) |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 5th, 2015 at 10:07am mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 9:58am:
You have provided no evidence at all of your claim that there were many eyewitnesses of Jesus. You haven't even mentioned who these people are, yet you believe they were acurate? mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 9:58am:
A single account about him, written or archaeological about Jesus from the period he was suppsoed to live. That isn't much is it? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 5th, 2015 at 10:54am aquascoot wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:47am:
Pontius Pilate :D :D :D :D |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:18am
The Christ myth theory is the proposition that Jesus of Nazareth never existed, or if he did, he had virtually nothing to do with the founding of Christianity and the accounts in the gospels.[102][103][104] This theory has very little support among current scholars.[105] Historically however, mythicist viewpoints were noted to varying degrees within academia[106][107][108][109] and some even became part of the mainstream scholarship, such as the viewpoint of David Strauss.[110] The theory enjoyed brief popularity in the Soviet Union, where it was supported by Sergey Kovalev, Alexander Kazhdan, Abram Ranovich, Nikolai Rumyantsev, Robert Wipper and Yuri Frantsev.[111] Later, however, several scholars, including Kazhdan, had retracted their views about mythical Jesus and by the end of the 1980s the support for the theory became almost non-existent in Soviet academia.[112]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus and while you are there check out http://www.bethinking.org/jesus/ancient-evidence-for-jesus-from-non-christian-sources |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:21am
Citing Wikipedia Maria? Not the done thing is it?
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by double plus good on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:27am mothra wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:21am:
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:27am
Didn't you literally ridicule me yesterday for linking a wikipedia? Such a hypocrite lol.
mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:18am:
Thanks for this, will check them out. Quote:
Not contemporary, was BORN after Jesus was supposed to have lived. Quote:
Ditto previous comment. Quote:
Again, not contemporary, and the most striking of his mentions Jesus in writings is generally accepted as being added in later (there is no reference to it before the 4th century, and contains phrases that no Jewish person would say) Have you even read these? There is LITERALLY no way these people could be eyewitnesses. Your claim is looking increasingly thin. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:29am double plus good wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:27am:
You misunderstand Double. Maria always mocks people for using Wikipedia. She won't accept it as a source from others and now she's using it. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by double plus good on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:29am
Come on guys. Let's respect these beliefs. The kids that walked out of the anthem got defended.
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by double plus good on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:31am mothra wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:29am:
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:33am Stratos wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:27am:
Ditto previous comment. Quote:
Again, not contemporary, and the most striking of his mentions Jesus in writings is generally accepted as being added in later (there is no reference to it before the 4th century, and contains phrases that no Jewish person would say) Have you even read these? There is LITERALLY no way these people could be eyewitnesses. Your claim is looking increasingly thin. [/quote] Do you see my point yet? There is absolutely no evidence you will ever accept. And yet, isn't it amazing how virtually no historian agrees with you? Virtually none. Why do you think that might be? Your problem is exactly what I stated earlier. To agree with the existence of Jesus is opposed to your ideological position and therefore cannot have happened. Its lame, but you are hardly the first person to have tried this on. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:37am mothra wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:29am:
Granted, I was lowering myself to your standards. So remove it. The rest stands by its own. Why don't you feel to pile on - as you do - and tell us all about how Jesus didn't exist in direct opposition to the virtual entire body of historians. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:37am mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:33am:
Your point that there are numerous eyewitnesses of Jesus? The claim you have completely failed to substantiate on any level? The one you are now still trying to avoid? What a joke, you can't even admit you were wrong in that assertion. So are you still claiming that there are lots of eyewitnesses, and willing to provide evidence as such, or are you willing to admit this is a false statement? mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:33am:
Again lies, I said quite clearly in a previous post what would convince me earlier: Stratos wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 10:07am:
Don't get angry you can't provide this evidence. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:46am mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:37am:
I think the question on the table is you accounting for the "many eye witnesses" that you claim existed. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by freediver on Nov 5th, 2015 at 12:40pm ____ wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:48pm:
Do I need to start a separate thread on this topic to ask your opinion? Or will you completely refuse to give your opinion until this "debate" is over? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 5th, 2015 at 2:57pm mothra wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:46am:
The problem is not evidence but Stratos' refusal to accept any evidence provided. He has not made a single comment on why virtually all historians accept a historical Jesus. I know why of course - as do you. He wants a standard of 'proof without reasonable doubt' - a standard that would exclude almost all history entirely. Its a fools errand to attempt to prove anything to a person who will only up the level of proof required no matter what you do. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 5th, 2015 at 3:18pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 2:57pm:
Wow, more blatant lies. Here is what I'm chasing, for the third time. Stratos wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:37am:
Which, seeing as you think there are a apparently a lot of eyewitnesses (which you have yet to provide of course), shouldn't be that hard. I'll ask again: Stratos wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:37am:
Ball in your court, substantiate your claim, or admit it' was incorrect. Really is that easy. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 5th, 2015 at 3:27pm Stratos wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 3:18pm:
Are you going to comment on the possible reasons that virtually no historians agree with you? I would like to hear why you think THEY agree. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 5th, 2015 at 3:35pm
Aw cute, trying to go for a third dodge now are you?
mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 3:27pm:
I think you'll find most historians agree with me that there are no records of Jesus from within his supposed timeframe. Also, are you going to keep breaking the ninth commandment or come up with some of these alleged eyewitnesses? Stratos wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 3:18pm:
I'm sure you wouldn't be OK with bearing false witness, so please address your previous claim, and whether you still think it is accurate, or if not, provide these eyewitnesses you think exist. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 5th, 2015 at 3:39pm Stratos wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 3:35pm:
Then you will be wrong. Why do you think they all agree that Jesus existed? In large measure because they don't reject all the accounts in the Gospels which were eye-witness (despite your objections) for the odd reasons you do. They look at the sum of evidence and happily and virtually universally accept that Jesus existed. You need to ask why historians don't have the problem you do. Perhaps because they are looking at it with clear unbiased eyes while you are inserting all your anti-Christian feelings into it. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 5th, 2015 at 3:48pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 3:39pm:
How can the Gospels be eyewitness accounts when they were written so many years after Jesus was killed? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 5th, 2015 at 3:51pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 3:39pm:
I think you will find that they think a historical character existed, not the Jesus depicted in scripture. This has quite strong paralels to Mormonism in a more modern time, where we know that an actual person existed (Joseph Smith), but not the (to pick an example) magic glasses. mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 3:39pm:
I have been over this with you before. The writers of the gospels (anonymous writers that is) make no claims to being eyewitness accounts, with the exception of the gospel of John, who only is given a title, and there is much discussion on who it may refer to. They were not even referred to by their titles until close to the end of the second century! mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 3:39pm:
:P Just because you are wrong doesn't make me anti-Christian. I value truth like any good Christian should. You on the other hand seem free and willing to spread lies, like the fact there are many eyewitness accounts of Jesus. Maybe produce one and prove yourself right and shut me up. I'm very happy to be wrong, all I'm asking for is evidence. If you try dodge it again, I guess you just don't have any. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 5th, 2015 at 4:40pm freediver wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 12:40pm:
In cases of child abuse, protection of the child is first. Ownership over the child is of a lesser value. If protection of children includes removal from an abusive situation, so be it. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:00pm mothra wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 3:48pm:
Are you serious? Can you write about events that happened 30 years ago in your life? Of course you can - and so did they. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:01pm Stratos wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 3:51pm:
You will be wrong yet again. They might ignore the supernatural aspects of the story, but not the historical parts. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:03pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:00pm:
They think the first one written was by 'Mark'. That was thought to be written around 70AD. How would anyboby be alive to know Jesus and still be alive in 70AD? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:06pm mothra wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:03pm:
The disciples were probably early 20s at worst and 35 years later were????? 55 years old. People did live that long then you know. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:17pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:06pm:
See, if you actually knew who wrote them, you wouldn't have to make such wild guesses like this. Although I would like your best guess as to why Aramaic speaking fisherman wrote in fluent Greek ;D mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:01pm:
Swing and a miss. Not one eyewitness given despite repeated requests. Shame you can't just admit your statement was wrong. mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:01pm:
Hey, maybe actually read what I wrote: Quote:
Trying to get you to answer a question is like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KHMO14KuJk |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:20pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:06pm:
Your maths is interesting Maria. I don't know what the relevance of 35 years is but if we are to assume that Mark was around the same age as Jesus, he wrote the Gospel when he was about 70, if he was in his early 20 when he hooked up with JC, then in his 60's. That's getting a little long in the tooth. More importantly, most scholars believe that Mark was written by a second generation Christian, dictated possibly from Peter. That's a close as you're going to get to an "eyewitness account" Maria. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:25pm
Mothra, don't forget that some gospels begin at Jesus birth, so ad another ~30 years to the authors of Matthew and Luke that they would have to be to be eyewitnesses.
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ex Dame Pansi on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:29pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:00pm:
Like there was this really cool dude that I hung around with, he performed miracles, like he turned 2 fish into 40,000 and made the dead come alive. ......if Jesus did that stuff, surely his mates would have written about it immediately rather than waiting 35 years. It's a hoax. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:40pm Stratos wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:17pm:
Because an Aramaic speaker could not have dictated it to a Greek writer or perhaps in the ensuing 30 years he learned how to write Greek? You need to think a littler harder. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:45pm mothra wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:20pm:
There is an awful lot of presumption there, Mothra. You have no reason to imagine Mark was any older than 20 and perhaps even still in his late teens. That would make him in his 50s. As for your last claim about the book of Mark dictated by Peter, are you aware that Peter was an eye-witness? The ancient world often didn't not put down who wrote things. It was common practice. The absence of authorship credentials does not extinguish authorship. The Gospels even claim to be written by eye-witnesses. At some point you need to accept a few things at face value or you end up rejecting EVERYTHING. Not everyone is out to con you and just because there is no absolute proof of a fact, does not make it a lie. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:47pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:45pm:
Lol, maybe read them. edit: even better, please quote in all four where they are claiming to be written by eyewitnesses. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by aquascoot on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:56pm John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 10:54am:
he was in judea |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:59pm Stratos wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:47pm:
1:1 Since many have undertaken to arrange in proper order an account of the events that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as from the beginning the eyewitnesses and those becoming ministers of the Word handed down to us, 3 so also it seemed good to me, accurately following and investigating everything from the first, to write to you in order (an account), most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the words (of the gospel) you have been taught.* Luke 1 |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 5th, 2015 at 6:02pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:45pm:
No more presumption than you yourself speak with Maria. More plausibility perhaps, but no less presumption. If it were dictated by Peter, it was not written by an eyewptness, and that is only a thin theory. It's difficult to know really what the Gospel's claim as they are full of so many historical inaccuracies but it is thought by scholars that Mark was written by a second generation Christian. And that is the earliest Gospel. As for just accepting things at face value, well, that's why i'm questioning your claim as to "many eyewitnesses". It doesn't seen to be the case. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 5th, 2015 at 6:02pm
“I guess I ought to clarify my position on eyewitness testimony in the Gospels, since it has been raised and you, Larry, say: ‘As I understand him, he doesn’t mean that the Gospels are “eyewitness testimony” such as a court transcript would provide, but that the Gospels draw on “eyewitness testimony” as it circulated in early Christian circles.’ Well, no, certainly nothing like a court transcript, more like “oral history.” But my point was that the Gospels are CLOSE to the eyewitnesses’ own testimony, not removed from them by decades of oral tradition. I think there is a very good case for Papias’s claim that Mark got his much of his material directly from Peter (and I will substantiate this further with quite new evidence in the sequel to [my book] Jesus and the Eyewitnesses that I’m now writing). I think that the ‘Beloved Disciple’ himself wrote the Gospel of John as we have it, and that he was a disciple of Jesus and thus an eyewitness himself, as he claims, though not John the son of Zebedee. Of course, his Gospel is the product of his life-long reflection on what he had witnessed, the most interpretative of the Gospels, but still the only one actually written by an eyewitness, who, precisely because he was close to Jesus, felt entitled to interpret quite extensively. Luke, as well as incorporating written material (Mark’s Gospel, which he knew as substantially Peter’s version of the Gospel story, and probably some of the “Q” material was in written form), also, I think, did what ancient historians did: he took every opportunity to meet eyewitnesses and interviewed them. He has probably collected material from a number of minor eyewitnesses from whom he got individual stories or sayings. Matthew is the Gospel I understand least! But whatever accounts for Matthew it is not the form-critical picture of anonymous community traditions, which we really must now abandon!”
https://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2013/11/19/bauckham-on-eyewitnesses-and-the-gospels/ |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 5th, 2015 at 6:15pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 6:02pm:
But John is almost certainly not written by John the Beloved, or any apostate. It is thought to be written 80-95AD. Anyway, why do you get to pimp a study by a Christian yet you ridicule me for linking to a study on same sex marriage written by a gay academic? Find me a secular academic who supports you Maria. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 5th, 2015 at 6:15pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:59pm:
So the only one you bother replying to, shows that the author was NOT AN EYEWITNESS. ;D This is a second hand source Maria! I'm starting to think you might just be trolling, that is far too dumb of a response to have been thought out. Your second one too, just makes the claim that they got the information from someone else. I.E, they did not see the events themselves. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 5th, 2015 at 6:27pm mothra wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 6:15pm:
Longy just got owned ;D |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Culture Warrior on Nov 5th, 2015 at 6:28pm ... wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:46pm:
Unbelievable inconsistency. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 5th, 2015 at 6:33pm Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 6:28pm:
I don;t remember Greens in that thread and i've yet to see one lefty from that thread agree that raising a child to be religious is child abuse. Pitchforks down boys. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by John Smith on Nov 5th, 2015 at 6:55pm aquascoot wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:56pm:
Rome was not just a city you boofhead. It was an empire spreads out across the entire known world at the time. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Soren on Nov 5th, 2015 at 7:34pm Soren wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 5:52pm:
Oh, you emoting, po-faced little Nazi, you. Just because you or Erlich assert something as child abuse it doesn't make it so. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 5th, 2015 at 7:37pm Here's a white Christian, teaching kids some things: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-05/perth-pastor-dawid-volmer-faces-jail-over-peadophile-ring/6916978 Are you a fan of his, Sore End? Good white Christian boy, and all. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Phemanderac on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:41pm
Funny thing I realised, the T-Rex never kept records, wrote books, paid taxes or built anything - yet there would appear to be more solid, measurable and irrefutable existence of T-Rex than JC...
All that said, it's a moot idea really, the reality is that the world has a significant number of organised religious groups, who, for the main part, believe they are the only ones who are right... That can't end well. Over mythology - sheesh |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 5th, 2015 at 10:59pm Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 6:28pm:
Insanity more like it. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:47pm
Well, looks like Maria has sulked off.
Please look into this subject to educate yourself, the origins of religions is fascinating, but please don't spread lies and misinformation without researching these things first. Peace, thanks for the chat, this really is a topic I enjoy. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Kamal on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:49pm
Mohammed was the one true profit, he knows how to treat a little girl and pocket the change.
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 6th, 2015 at 8:43am Stratos wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 11:47pm:
Maybe I have family and a life and don't want to spend all of it on here. Some of you people must have very sad little lives. And I repeat the fact that professional historians do not agree with you. There should be a clue in there somewhere, but I doubt your atheism will permit you to find it. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 8:49am mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 8:43am:
Most historians think Jesus existed, but that isn't your claim. Your claim was that there are lots of eyewitness accounts, which is 100% wrong. The section YOU linked from Luke demonstrates that it in fact only claiming to be a third hand account. Read your Bible and stop breaking the ninth commandment. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:12am Stratos wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 8:49am:
And that is your problem. Unless something can be proven to YOUR satisfaction, you declare it 100% wrong. Mark's Gospel was apparently written using Peter as the source - an Eye Witness. Johns Gospel was written by... john the disciple, an eye witness. You demand a standard of proof that is impossible for historical documents. Luke was writing on behalf of other eye-witnesses and says as much. I defy you to prove the existence of any BC era figure using your methodology. And again, historians don't have the problem you do. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:28am mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:12am:
Most historians believe the Gospels were not written by eyewitnesses. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:29am mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:12am:
You realise then that this means that the author was not an eyewitness yes? mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:12am:
This is extremely debated, if you had researched this in any way you would know that. The author isn't named in the book, which begs the question, if it WAS John the disciple, why would he not have just said that instead of using the cryptic and nonsensical title "the disciple who Jesus loved". That hardly narrows it down now does it? mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:12am:
Luke was writing on behalf of Paul apparently, who never claimed to have met Jesus. You really don't know your scripture well do you? mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:12am:
;D Now you think Jesus is from the BC era ;D Still though, Pontius Pilate is mentioned by several contemporary historians, plus there is archaeological evidence of his existence in the form of the Pilate Stone. No contemporary historian mentions Jesus, and there is no archaeological evidence for him. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:14am Stratos wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:29am:
A pedantic difference at best. Using eye-witnesses as your source material still makes your book 'eye-witness'. Most people think Jesus was born around 4BC - as if that was the point of my challenge anyhow. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Phemanderac on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:18am Phemanderac wrote on Nov 5th, 2015 at 8:41pm:
Pretty sure this chap was substantially pre history. There is of course another famous BC identity who is only known as Lucy - because our cave dwelling predecessors were not good at record keeping, but she most certainly existed... Arguably there is more empirical evidence that Lucy existed that JC... Or, if you like, Plato as well. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:19am
Keep moving those goalposts buddy. Also you think Luke counts, despite he got info from Paul apparently, who never met, or even claimed to meet Jesus. Massive fail.
All the while ignoring every point and dodging every question. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:20am mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:14am:
No. It doesn't. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Phemanderac on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:21am mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:14am:
Nope! It is a "secondary source" at best... I am surprised that you did not know that. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:33am Phemanderac wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:21am:
So, an eye-witness account only matters if the person writes it themselves? So a ghost-written 'auto-biography' is a complete lie? Do we have to discard any and all evidence and information pertaining to a person unless it was self-written by an eye-witness? This was what I meant by continually raising the standard of proof bar so that you can happily exclude any material you don't like. And that is why historians don't have the problems you do. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:37am mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:33am:
If it is claiming to be an autobiography, yes. You are literally arguing with the dictionary now Maria mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:33am:
I have never changed my standard of proof since we started. Any contemporary account, written or archaeological of Jesus will do. You seem to think there were a bunch of eyewitnesses (like Luke ;D), so provide this and I'll stand entirely with you. But you keep dodging this question, so I guess you were just lying. Very un-Christian of you |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:37am mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:33am:
It's not that it matters Maria, it's that it ceases to be an eyewitness account. No-one is saying that it necessarily makes the content matter a lie (although i think that it is), we are simply saying it is not an eyewitness account. This is not raising the standard of proof. It is calling you to question the appropriate use of the word "eyewitness". |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:49am Stratos wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:37am:
Just as long as you get to reject any such accounts for any reason whatsoever, right? John - eyewitness - rejected because he took a while to write it? Mark - the first hand accounts of Peter - eyewitness - rejected because of ??? And on and on it goes. Roman Senator and Historian Tacitus - wrote records of Jesus' trial and crucifixion: rejected. You reject EVERYTHING which makes your opinion of not much value. So how does anyone prove to your satisfaction that they were an eye-witness to any event in history whatsoever? Basically, they cant. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:52am mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:49am:
Ooh you haven't mentioned that. Got a link, that sounds interesting. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 6th, 2015 at 12:08pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 3rd, 2015 at 10:18am:
Just a reprint of Maria's claim ... many many posts later we have Maria digging her pit.. Will she dig deeper ... or will she admit herself wrong ... or will she disappear and a new entity arise out of Maria's ashes. Maybe next time a tranny named fred . Popcorn anyone ? the thread continues. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 6th, 2015 at 12:33pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 12:22pm:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1446723973/30#41 Is this Mary hosting a white flag? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Phemanderac on Nov 6th, 2015 at 12:48pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:33am:
Show me where I said that? If the best you can do is erroneously extrapolate from what is actually said to totally change the meaning, or, add to the actual meaning, then clearly, you are losing ground. Somebody writing an eyewitness account that is reported to them is referred to as a secondary source, no more no less... The accuracy of what is said is open to exactly the same standards of evidence though, as if it were a direct account from an eye witness. Are you saying that all eye witness accounts then are 100% accurate and honest and should need no further evidence... Peter Garret's autobiography would be a good example, would you believe everything in that told by a secondary source? mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:33am:
I am not excluding any material, as such, whatever you meant is clearly wrong regarding raising some standard of proof... Historians have generally agreed that someone name Jesus lived... By definition though, that is by consensus as there is not substantial or measurable evidence. That is why you're having so much trouble providing evidence. I don't have a problem with accepting the existence (and eventual snuffing out of that existence) of some bloke named Jesus, as a historical figure, that is the extent of what historians generally agree on after all. The mythology though, is just that, myth. Unproven and, arguably unable to be proven. The actual standard of proof bar (despite your angry protestations) has not been moved one iota by anyone here, well, arguably except by you lowering it for your own ends... Once again, I will finish with, please stop re framing what I actually say to mean something other than what I actually meant to say, it diminishes any credibility you may demonstrate with other arguments... I have asked you this several times now, I am starting to wonder if being disrespectful is a deliberate choice you make! |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 1:40pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:49am:
If you thank that is what he wrote (oh and by the way it is not even POSSIBLE Tacitus was an eyewitness ;)) then you have clearly not read it. Your research is beyond pathetic if you think Tacitus' words show evidence of a trial or crucifixion ;D |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Phemanderac on Nov 6th, 2015 at 1:47pm
I am pretty sure that Livy did not mention Jesus...
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by it_is_the_light on Nov 6th, 2015 at 1:50pm |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:14pm
Whether some on here like it or not, the bible apart from being a religious book is also a history book.
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:23pm Ajax wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:14pm:
A mythologised version of history maybe. There are some things that we know happened, but there are definitely things that happened contrary to it. Certain stories have value as allegory though, despite the fact they obviously never happened (Noah's flood etc.) |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:28pm Stratos wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:23pm:
You denying the great flood never happened doesn't mean that it never happened. Its your opinion and that it. Care to explain how fish fossils have been found on top of mountains? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Phemanderac on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:40pm
I am pretty sure we have had some big floods throughout history, just not quite to the same biblical proportions...
Of course, a huge flood wiping out the most of the "known" population would be a story retold with a fair degree of ad-don exaggeration, thus the term myth being applied... There might even have been a big boat built by some bloke and filled with family and a bunch of pets, but, two of EVERY animal (which, in modern terms and understanding would actually be two of every species which blows the numbers through the roof), how would we not have found a Boat that big definitely by now? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:41pm mothra wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:28am:
What a load of $hit. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:42pm Ajax wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:28pm:
There is nothing you would expect to find if there was a worldwide flood. A worldwide deluge would leave very clear evidence, but does not appear that way. Ajax wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:28pm:
tectonic uplift. Next. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:44pm Phemanderac wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:40pm:
The known world of that time was flooded. If you don't WANT to believe that...all fine by me lol. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:45pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:41pm:
Quite true. In fact, only one of the gospels claims to be written by an eyewitness, which is John, and no name is given, only a title. Most contain events they nobody could see anyway if you take them at face value (most obviously the circumstances around Jesus birth, and the scene at the tomb towards the end) |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ajax on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:50pm
If you want proof that God exists go into your front yard look around at nature and into the sky and remember where it is that we live.
The diversity of life on this planet and the position of the Earth with all its safety valves and features would be impossible out of luck. That the diversity of life came out of a worm from the sea is as big a mythology as any story ever told. Or that we started with a big bang from a point so small that it could stand on the point of a needle. Now in the bible it does say that God created the light first and then the stars. That's one way for the big bang to be real. Otherwise physics tells us nothing can be created out of nothing. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:50pm Stratos wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:45pm:
Many thanks for agreeing with me....not Mothra. I couldn't believe the stupid remark she made either...although given her online history I should expect nothing else. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:53pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:41pm:
And that is indeed $h1t. Most historians agree that John was indeed an eye witness. So bugger off Mothball. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:59pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:53pm:
Nothing is known for certain about "John". The person's name is not given, and there is a huge debate about who the real author is. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:08pm Stratos wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:59pm:
Utter cr@p! |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:13pm
Please show in that case where I am mistaken, and who you think wrote the book.
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:16pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 2:53pm:
No. They don;t. Most think it was written 80-95AD. Bit late for an eyewitness dont't you think? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:16pm Stratos wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:13pm:
Oh come on. It has nothing to do with what you or I may think. My statement stands...most historians agree that John was indeed an eyewitness. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:17pm
which eyewitness then?
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:17pm mothra wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:16pm:
Not interested in what you've just pathetically googled. Now bugger off. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:19pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:16pm:
Find me one secular historian who thinks John the Beloved wrote the Gospel of John. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:20pm Stratos wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:17pm:
Duh! |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ex Dame Pansi on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:21pm
What would the gospels be called if they were written today? perhaps....
Rockefeller Francis (Pope) Rothschild Putin |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:22pm mothra wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:19pm:
You get it yourself. It'll give you something more to google. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:22pm Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:21pm:
There'd be a Murdoch in there for sure. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:23pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:22pm:
I can't. It doesn't seem to exist. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ex Dame Pansi on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:24pm mothra wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:16pm:
Most historians believe their was no eyewitness account of Jesus. The books were most likely written by the Roman leaders of that time, in order to control the plebs. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:28pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:20pm:
Have you now worked out who? Any more silly questions from your corner Stratos? If not...good. I'll leave you to enjoy Idiot Hour. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ex Dame Pansi on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:28pm mothra wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:22pm:
We have so many that would love to control our world, that's the problem. We could re-write the ten commandments too. 1. Thou shalt not accuse thy oil barons of paying no taxes 2. Thou shalt obey thy leader and his servants |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ex Dame Pansi on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:30pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:28pm:
So......did we get the name of an Historian that agrees John was an eyewitness and it was he that wrote the text? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:34pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:28pm:
Of course not. If I found definitive proof of the authorship of one of the gospels I'd be off to the highest bidder :P That discovery would make me set for life! |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:40pm Stratos wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:34pm:
I stated : Most historians agree that John was an eye witness. You then asked me : Who was the eye witness? I answered : Duh! I then asked you : Have you now worked out who? You've essentially come back with : Of course not. Conclusion? You're off to the Naughty Corner. You could always stay here and continue to talk utter cr@p. I don't particularly care if you do/don't lol :P |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:46pm
Unless your answer is "the disciple who Jesus loved" whoever the hell that is, you are a liar.
No name is given, only that description. Funny, the obvious implication is that Jesus didn't love any of the other disciples ;D |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:54pm Stratos wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:46pm:
Again....utter cr@p! At least you're consistent. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by gizmo_2655 on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:56pm Stratos wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:46pm:
Sorry, but historically, it's better than even money that a person named 'Jesus' really did exist...based on the records of the Roman Empire.. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:57pm Stratos wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:46pm:
Or not as gayly. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:58pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:54pm:
No. That is true. John never gives his name. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:59pm ____ wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:57pm:
Not that there's anything wrong with that. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:09pm
Ohhh great!
Greenie's here...now all we need is Greg and Bobby to turn up. If that happens, all 3 members of the Unholy Trinity will be marched off to the Naughty Corner. :P |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:11pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:09pm:
I've been here all the time. Unlike others, I don't drop into a thread and start abusing posters. Maybe that's why you haven't noticed me. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:14pm ____ wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:11pm:
Translation : I like to watch. Why am I not surprised? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Phemanderac on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:18pm ____ wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:11pm:
ROFLMAO.... Now that's pearls before swine...iiiiii yes I said swine, if the shoe fits... |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:19pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:14pm:
Translated ... I like to be a prima donna. Now how about these eye witnesses to a gay jesus. Looking forward to them being named. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:27pm Phemanderac wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:18pm:
It certainly fits you. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:28pm ____ wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:19pm:
You can look all you like. They don't exist. Tough luck. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:29pm Stratos wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:52am:
Tacitus—or more formally, Caius/Gaius (or Publius) Cornelius Tacitus (55/56–c. 118 C.E.)—was a Roman senator, orator and ethnographer, and arguably the best of Roman historians. His name is based on the Latin word tacitus, “silent,” from which we get the English word tacit. Interestingly, his compact prose uses silence and implications in a masterful way. One argument for the authenticity of the quotation below is that it is written in true Tacitean Latin.4 But first a short introduction. tacitus-bnf Roman historian Tacitus. Photo: Bibliotheque nationale, Paris, France / Giraudon / Bridgeman Images. Tacitus’s last major work, titled Annals, written c. 116–117 C.E., includes a biography of Nero. In 64 C.E., during a fire in Rome, Nero was suspected of secretly ordering the burning of a part of town where he wanted to carry out a building project, so he tried to shift the blame to Christians. This was the occasion for Tacitus to mention Christians, whom he despised. This is what he wrote—the following excerpt is translated from Latin by Robert Van Voorst: tacitus-annals TACIT CONFIRMATION. Roman historian Tacitus’s last major work, Annals, mentions a “Christus” who was executed by Pontius Pilate and from whom the Christians derived their name. Tacitus’s brief reference corroborates historical details of Jesus’ death from the New Testament. The pictured volume of Tacitus’s works is from the turn of the 17th century. The volume’s title page features Plantin Press’s printing mark depicting angels, a compass and the motto Labore et Constantia (“By Labor and Constancy”). Photo: Tacitus, Opera Quae Exstant, trans. by Justus Lipsius (Antwerp, Belgium: Ex officina Plantiniana, apud Joannem Moretum, 1600). Courtesy of the Philadelphia Rare Books & Manuscripts Co. (PRB&M). [N]either human effort nor the emperor’s generosity nor the placating of the gods ended the scandalous belief that the fire had been ordered [by Nero]. Therefore, to put down the rumor, Nero substituted as culprits and punished in the most unusual ways those hated for their shameful acts … whom the crowd called “Chrestians.” The founder of this name, Christ [Christus in Latin], had been executed in the reign of Tiberius by the procurator Pontius Pilate … Suppressed for a time, the deadly superstition erupted again not only in Judea, the origin of this evil, but also in the city [Rome], where all things horrible and shameful from everywhere come together and become popular.5 Tacitus’s terse statement about “Christus” clearly corroborates the New Testament on certain historical details of Jesus’ death. Tacitus presents four pieces of accurate knowledge about Jesus: (1) Christus, used by Tacitus to refer to Jesus, was one distinctive way by which some referred to him, even though Tacitus mistakenly took it for a personal name rather than an epithet or title; (2) this Christus was associated with the beginning of the movement of Christians, whose name originated from his; (3) he was executed by the Roman governor of Judea; and (4) the time of his death was during Pontius Pilate’s governorship of Judea, during the reign of Tiberius. (Many New Testament scholars date Jesus’ death to c. 29 C.E.; Pilate governed Judea in 26–36 C.E., while Tiberius was emperor 14–37 C.E.6) Tacitus, like classical authors in general, does not reveal the source(s) he used. But this should not detract from our confidence in Tacitus’s assertions. Scholars generally disagree about what his sources were. Tacitus was certainly among Rome’s best historians—arguably the best of all—at the top of his game as a historian and never given to careless writing. Earlier in his career, when Tacitus was Proconsul of Asia,7 he likely supervised trials, questioned people accused of being Christians and judged and punished those whom he found guilty, as his friend Pliny the Younger had done when he too was a provincial governor. Thus Tacitus stood a very good chance of becoming aware of information that he characteristically would have wanted to verify before accepting it as true.8 http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/did-jesus-exist/ |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:30pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:40pm:
Stratos...a quick question. Have you ever bothered to read the Holy Bible in its entirety? I don't think you have. And it shows. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:34pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:29pm:
oopsie daisies. Better luck next time, try again. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:36pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:30pm:
Three times right through, apocrypha once, various readings of individual books. For an example, look back here Maria thought that Luke was an eyewitness of events, and I corrected her in saying that Luke was supposed to be a companion of Paul, who himself never witnessed Jesus. I know my stuff Lisa. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:38pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:56pm:
The debate going on currently is whether there are eyewitnesses of his life and actions, as was proposed by Maria. She still hasn't provided any though. There is a very small amount of evidence from the Romans, and none of it comes from the proposed lifetime, the earliest was written in the 2nd century I believe. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:44pm Stratos wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:36pm:
I don't think you do. In any event, I'm going to leave you a bit of homework. I'd like you to read the Gospel of John from beginning to end. Just that. The Gospel of John. When I come back online (ie tomorrow as we're celebrating our anniversary tonight and we're going back to the same restaurant we 1st met)....I'm going to ask you a few questions about the Gospel of John. I'm interested in how you'll answer my questions. One further question before I leave....are you /were you Catholic? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:46pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:44pm:
Have fun! I'm a bit busy myself this weeend, but sure, I'll play along. edit: and no, not now nor ever was I catholic |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:51pm Stratos wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:36pm:
And yet you don't even know the Jesus of the Bible. What was the point of reading it? To pick up any perceived flaws? When I read the bible I see the heart of God. I see the state of man and I see the plan of fixing all of that. I have no idea what you see at all. You are content with pedantic distinctions to try and absolve you from any responsibility to listen to what is written. I do note that you have not yet attempted to support the existence of any ancient person using your standards of evidence. It says a lot - most of rather sad about you. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:53pm Stratos wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:38pm:
And that will never be done to your satisfaction because... if an eyewitness account is presented, you simply reject it for any reason you choose. You have still not explained why you reject Johns eye-witness account which was written personally by him. But you do. Why don't you explain that? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:54pm Stratos wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:46pm:
I see! Well in that case, I'm very interested in what you have to say. Very interested indeed. Hmmmm.....you've got me wondering now. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:57pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:53pm:
In my opinion..I don't think he's read it from start to finish. Not to worry, I've left him some homework lol. Stratos has to read the Gospel of John from start to finish. When I return...I will run a few questions by him. I can hardly wait lol. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by athos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 5:30pm ____ wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:19pm:
Is it child abuse and acceptable teaching children that two mails can Fuke each other and get certificate for this?. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 6th, 2015 at 6:30pm athos wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 5:30pm:
I've no knowledge of what mail fluking is. Perhaps you should enquire at your local post office. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 6th, 2015 at 7:38pm mothra wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 3:16pm:
Incorrect, I take it you has a sherry or two today grandma. ;D |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 6th, 2015 at 7:48pm ____ wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:19pm:
I totally agree. It should be a criminal offence for adults to teach impressionable children that those parts of the bible which deal in fantasy are true. Social ethics, values, and morality are something quite distinct from religious belief. The one does not inextricably depend upon the other as those with an emotional or political investment in religion would have you believe. In fact religion's main purpose has always been to give certain people authority and power over other people. The priesthood was the very first profession - not prostitution as many would have you believe. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 6th, 2015 at 8:20pm Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 7:48pm:
How do you propose to PROVE anything is not true? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 6th, 2015 at 8:40pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 8:20pm:
Well a great deal of it demonstrably isn't. Contradictions and inaccuracies all over the place. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:26pm mothra wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 8:40pm:
Such as ? Words are cheap. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:27pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:51pm:
Aw, more lies? Shame you can't even follow your own commandments. Look back, I used the same criteria on Pontius Pilate. mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 4:53pm:
Because it is anonymous. Could have been written by literally anybody. Find me a conclusive author and you may very well have an eyewitness account, although seeing as it is generally agreed to having been written around 100AD this would likely raise further questions. http://www.britannica.com/topic/Gospel-According-to-John |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:31pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 8:20pm:
It works the other way around. It's for the christians to prove their mythology. Until then, it's child abuse. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:48pm ____ wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:31pm:
No its not its up to you to prove your ignorance is reality, which you cannot. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:55pm LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:26pm:
Well a great deal of it demonstrably isn't. Contradictions and inaccuracies all over the place.[/quote] Such as ? Words are cheap.[/quote] 108. Christ is equal with God John 10:30/ Phil 2:5 Christ is not equal with God John 14:28/ Matt 24:36 109. Jesus was all-powerful Matt 28:18/ John 3:35 Jesus was not all-powerful Mark 6:5 110. The law was superseded by the Christian dispensation Luke 16:16/ Eph 2:15/ Rom 7:6 The law was not superseded by the Christian dispensation Matt 5:17-19 111. Christ's mission was peace Luke 2:13,14 Christ's mission was not peace Matt 10:34 112. Christ received not testimony from man John 5:33,34 Christ did receive testimony from man John 15:27 113. Christ's witness of himself is true. John 8:18,14 Christ's witness of himself is not true. John 5:31 114. Christ laid down his life for his friends John 15:13/ John 10:11 Christ laid down his life for his enemies Rom 5:10 115. It was lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death John 19:7 It was not lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death John 18:31 116. Children are punished for the sins of the parents Ex 20:5 Children are not punished for the sins of the parents Ezek 18:20 117. Man is justified by faith alone Rom 3:20/ Gal 2:16/ Gal 3:11,12/ Rom 4:2 Man is not justified by faith alone James 2:21,24/ Rom 2:13 118. It is impossible to fall from grace John 10:28/ Rom 8:38,39 It is possible to fall from grace Ezek 18:24/ Heb 6:4-6, 2 Pet 2:20,21 119. No man is without sin 1 Kings 8:46/ Prov 20:9/ Eccl 7:20/ Rom 3:10 Christians are sinless 1 John 3: 9,6,8 120. There is to be a resurrection of the dead 1 Cor 15:52/ Rev 20:12,13/ Luke 20:37/ 1 Cor 15:16 There is to be no resurrection of the dead Job 7:9/ Eccl 9:5/ Is 26:14 121. Reward and punishment to be bestowed in this world Prov 11:31 Reward and punishment to be bestowed in the next world Rev 20:12/ Matt 16:27/ 2 Cor 5:10 122. Annihilation the portion of all mankind Job 3: 11,13-17,19-22/ Eccl 9:5,10/ Eccl 3:19,20 Endless misery the portion of all mankind Matt 25:46/ Rev 20:10,15/ Rev 14:11/ Dan 12:2 123. The Earth is to be destroyed 2 Pet 3:10/ Heb 1:11/ Rev 20:11 The Earth is never to be destroyed Ps 104:5/ Eccl 1:4 124. No evil shall happen to the godly Prov 12:21/ 1 Pet 3:13 Evil does happen to the godly Heb 12:6/ Job 2:3,7 125. Worldly good and prosperity are the lot of the godly Prov 12:21/ Ps 37:28,32,33,37/ Ps 1:1,3/ Gen 39:2/ Job 42:12 Worldly misery and destitution the lot of the godly Heb 11:37,38/ Rev 7:14/ 2 Tim 3:12/ Luke 21:17 126. Worldly prosperity a reward of righteousness and a blessing Mark 10:29,30/ Ps 37:25/ Ps 112:1,3/ Job 22:23,24/ Prov 15:6 Worldly prosperity a curse and a bar to future reward Luke 6:20,24/ Matt 6:19,21/ Luke 16:22/ Matt 19:24/ Luke 6:24 127. The Christian yoke is easy Matt 11:28,29,30 The Christian yoke is not easy John 16:33/ 2 Tim 3:12/ Heb 12:6,8 128. The fruit of God's spirit is love and gentleness Gal 5:22 The fruit of God's spirit is vengeance and fury Judg 15:14/ 1 Sam 18:10,11 129. Longevity enjoyed by the wicked Job 21:7,8/ Ps 17:14/ Eccl 8:12/ Is 65:20 Longevity denied to the wicked Eccl 8:13/ Ps 55:23/ Prov 10:27/ Job 36:14/ Eccl 7:17 130. Poverty a blessing Luke 6:20,24/ Jams 2:5 Riches a blessing Prov 10:15/ Job 22:23,24/ Job 42:12 Neither poverty nor riches a blessing Prov 30:8,9 131. Wisdom a source of enjoyment Prov 3:13,17 Wisdom a source of vexation, grief and sorrow Eccl 1:17,18 132. A good name is a blessing Eccl 7:1/ Prov 22:1 A good name is a curse Luke 6:26 133. Laughter commended Eccl 3:1,4/ Eccl 8:15 Laughter condemned Luke 6:25/ Eccl 7:3,4 134. The rod of correction a remedy for foolishness Prov 22:15 There is no remedy for foolishness Prov 27:22 135. A fool should be answered according to his folly Prov 26:5 A fool should not be answered according to his folly Prov 26:4 136. Temptation to be desired James 1:2 Temptation not to be desired Matt 6:13 137. Prophecy is sure 2 Pet 1:19 Prophecy is not sure Jer 18:7-10 138. Man's life was to be one hundred and twenty years Gen 6:3/ Ps 90:10 Man's life is but seventy years Ps 90:10 http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:56pm LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:48pm:
Your claim is based on your own ignorance. One of basics of the bible, jesus, can not even be proven that he existed. If this can't be proven then it shows the book for it's mythologic and not factual value. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:58pm ____ wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:56pm:
I don't make a claim, your claim is God does not exists, you cannot prove this. So you live in a closed minded ignorance. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 6th, 2015 at 10:12pm LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:58pm:
Shouldn't you be able to prove it if you teach it as fact in schools? I went to a convent school. It was never taight to me as fact. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 6th, 2015 at 10:19pm LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:58pm:
i did not make the claim god doesn't exist. I state the bible is a work of fiction. Those that say it isn't can't even prove jesus existed. A major element within your mythological book. So it's up to those that say the bible is factual to prove those facts. Meanwhile, teaching this fictional book to children is child abuse. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 10:23pm LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:58pm:
Very few people who don't believe in deities make a claim that no gods exist. Personally I don't know if they do or not, but without evidence I'm not going to believe they are. Certain deities you can disprove based on the claims made about them. If the claim doesn't stack up, the god doesn't exist in the form proposed. My favourite contradiction is Goliath dying three times. Quite the oversight really. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 6th, 2015 at 10:29pm Stratos wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 10:23pm:
Who said goliath died 3 times , 3 different authors ? Whats that got to do with God. Whether you believe God exists or not also is based on what you determine evidence is. If God existed He would have created evolution as we know it, the earth and birds and animals. The complex structure of nature and man. If you class all that as not God you will never see any evidence of any God in a physical world. As your world is determined by you. Just like Atheists running around telling everyone they know God does not exist. When clearly they do not. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 6th, 2015 at 10:31pm LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 10:29pm:
Once by David with a sling, once by David with a sword, once by Elhanan. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 6th, 2015 at 10:35pm LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 10:29pm:
I largely agree with that although i;d qualify that probably more Christians are Christians owing to perception than any evidence in the Bible. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 6th, 2015 at 10:41pm
Your opinion only. If God in fact does reveal himself by His Holy Spirit entering a believer communing with their spirit you wouldn't know, until you believed through the Holy Spirits prompting of your spirit from the outside. As you reject that you're making assumptions of people when you have absolutely no idea of what their experience or relationship is with God.
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 6th, 2015 at 10:44pm LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 10:41pm:
That's precisely what i said. People believe more because of perception than they are swayed by the historical evidence of the Bible. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 6th, 2015 at 10:49pm mothra wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 10:44pm:
Actually its not what you said at all , and what I said has nothing to do with perception it has to do with you consciously rejecting God. From your point of view that would be perception of God no doubt from God's(being the Christian God) it would be rejecting his Holy Spirit prompting your spirit to accept Him. There is no need nor reason he should force Himself on you as that would deny you free will. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 6th, 2015 at 10:52pm LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 10:49pm:
It's precisely what i said. Anyway, how do you feel God if you do not perceive him? Or her. It means the same thing you know. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 6th, 2015 at 10:58pm mothra wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 10:52pm:
No its not precisely what you said at all. I never said you had to feel God. You receive rhema of God through the Holy Spirit if you believe. If you don't believe you are simply on your own bike until you find out at the end of your life by your own choosing. Easy peasy. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:00pm LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 10:58pm:
As i keep saying. You perceive the Holy Spirit. It's faith based, not logic based. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by issuevoter on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:26pm
Faith, logic, who the bugger cares? Life is about the perpetuation of your genetic code.
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:35pm mothra wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:00pm:
That's what the doctrine says it is not what I perceive it is. Your logic argument is logic based according to your paradigm no one elses. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:38pm LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:35pm:
You do not perceive the Holy Spirit? You;ve just been telling us how you do. Do you contend that most Christians ar Christians because of what the doctrine says, not what they perceive to be true? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:38pm issuevoter wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:26pm:
Make the same comment on your death bed. I challenge you too, when that time comes, if in fact you get the chance to make that comment. Better to be open to continual learning than closing the mind. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:40pm LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:38pm:
But learning, true learning, explores many doctrines. It also explores many points of view of free thinkers. It is expansive to consider many schools of thought, yes? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:43pm mothra wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:38pm:
What they know is true through rhema via the Holy Ghost like I said before. Simple really. I contend they are Christians because they believed and then knew. Just like the bible says. IE The doctrine. You perceive its not true so be happy with your rejection of God. Its your choice no Christian will force you to believe. Their job is but only to bring you to a point of decision. Simply accept or reject the gospel message. No dramas at all. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:44pm mothra wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:40pm:
I am talking about true learning as a free thinker not a close minded fool. Seek and ye shall find. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:45pm LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:44pm:
There are a great many things to find. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lionel Edriess on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:50pm While we train altar boys - despite the depredations of a corrupt clergy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBgrzkClyOo Rats in the silo. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:51pm LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:38pm:
I can almost smell the fear. No wonder you believe. Edit: Re your challenge, so the last chance for a cop out on all your ill doings is just before you die... Nah, I'll take responsibility for myself. Pity I couldn't give it to you in writing somehow as part of my will, but there will be no deathbed acceptance of your god from me. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:57pm Setanta wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:51pm:
I have no fear, I can smell your fear though that you need to try and put me down because I may in fact be correct. You are right to fear the truth because you deny it. I have no problem with the fact that you have made your decision to reject Christ. Live with it in peace not derision. I can live with yours and my decision. Can you ? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:00am mothra wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:45pm:
And if there is a one true God would he not know you are looking and guide you to the truth and teach you because he loves you. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:01am LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:57pm:
;) I think you may be mistaken, but carry on. Just think it's Allah or Yhwy you'll be facing if there is such a thing.. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:02am Setanta wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 11:51pm:
I have no problem with that. You have been bought to a point of decision and you have chosen to reject Jesus Christ. Every man makes his own decisions. Moving right along so the story goes for all of us. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:04am Setanta wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:01am:
You can think what you want its not up to me to tell you what to think. Every man has a free will. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:09am LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:00am:
You just said God wasn't interventionist? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:15am LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:02am:
I have been brought to that decision over many years. My first 9 years at school was Catholic education. I got involved with the Evangelists in the '80s, wife was a bit of a fundy, she just stopped talking about it one day, never brought it up and I asked her why. You know what she said? "It's a lot of bullshiit, you can only keep up the facade when you follow the exact verses the pastor lays out and believe it." |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:15am mothra wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:09am:
Whats the point here seriously lets skip to it. Do you have a question if so be specific. If you want to discuss something lets discuss. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:21am LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:15am:
Well, if you did say he was not interventionist, and then claim he is later... Valid Q. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:22am LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:15am:
No seriously. You said God wasn't interventionist but then you said that God would guide to seek the truth in his or her teachings if you embarked on the journey. Which is it? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:30am mothra wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:22am:
If he wasn't interventionist, prayers are a waste of time. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lionel Edriess on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:32am mothra wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:22am:
Which God are we talking about? You need to be specific - there is a great difference in the journeys they espouse. There is the 'God of Peace' and the 'God of Love'. Why can't they get along? ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:36am Setanta wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:30am:
So it would seem. So would the adherence to any book on offer. God would know our 'souls'. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:36am Lionel Edriess wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:32am:
LifeOrDeath's I think. All the same to me. :o |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:39am Lionel Edriess wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:32am:
I dunno. They seem to squabbling about trivial details. Like when it;s ok to beat your wife, or have slaves, or talk back to your parents. It's hard to follow what's ok or not, if you follow the old books and not just a perception. All Gods are one God? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:40am mothra wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:22am:
Seriously is that it? Where did I say God wasn't interventionist. This is getting rather silly. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:45am Setanta wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:15am:
Same here, skip the Roman Catholic part for me. Jesus teachings are very simple I have yet to meet anyone really that can keep his basic commands let alone aspire to be so called fundy prophets. I have met man y clowns and fools as you have I trust. Jesus was simple and so is God its stupid mankind that screws it all up. I let all the rubbish go and try to keep the simple teachings of jesus and accept what he did as far as salvation is concerned and try my best. Leave the nutters and fools and money grabber to themselves they have their rewards on earth. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:53am LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:45am:
I think that if there was an interventionist god, he would be self evident to all. That is not the case. We may have a non-interventionist god, but... No evidence either way. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:59am Setanta wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:53am:
Maybe he is reaching out to you right now through this conversation and wants you to ask him into your life later on tonight in a quiet room just you and him so he can commune with your spirit and make himself real. That's how his holy spirit works. Not the fundy version. The small still voice he says that brings the peace that surpasses understanding into ones spirit. The bible speaks of people that go their whole lives not knowing him but full of their own knowledge and never finding peace and understanding. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:01am LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:45am:
So your teachings about Jesus do not lead you towards accepting humanity wherever it finds itself? You are preoccupied with those who fall short of Christ's teachings? Isn't that all of us? Isn't that you? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:03am mothra wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:01am:
Where ever humanity finds itself ? I never knew it was looking for itself in the first place. mothra wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:01am:
Nothing about Christ in here, we are talking about islam and its doctrine full stop. mothra wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:01am:
Isn't what what exactly ?? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:08am LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:59am:
This thread is not what I would call god being "self evident". Not the fundy version? Are they all wrong in their tongues and hands? Surely not. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:10am LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:03am:
Humanity has always been looking for itself. We have created many stories to help us relate. We are not talking about Islam, we are talking about your God. What exactly is the fact that you are very insulting and hostile, for the most part. Is that part of your religious teachings? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:18am mothra wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:10am:
Perhaps just forgiven as all are Namaste |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:22am Setanta wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:18am:
Ah. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:23am Setanta wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:08am:
Glossolalia can be achieved through meditation a false sign through other spiritual influences, also by in filling by the Holy Ghost being one of the gifts of God. You can tell them by their fruits. Did they display good fruits or lying false fruits. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:31am mothra wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:10am:
Your opinion I guess but its a silly statement if that's your view you are entitled to it. mothra wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:10am:
I assume you are meaning religions. Of course mankind has. To suite his own opinions. That's the way it is. mothra wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:10am:
What about Him what did Jesus do to you ? mothra wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:10am:
Yes that's all very dramatic care to be more specific in your accusation love ? mothra wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:10am:
Is what part of my religious teaching ? Hatred of evil, sure. Nothing wrong with that. Do I hate you no, In all honesty I care about you at the end of the day in reality. Trolling and banter on a forum aside. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:56am LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:23am:
Do you want to try to rephrase that? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:06am mothra wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:56am:
No its fine, probably a bit deep for you though. I was talking to setanta. Do you have a question about it ? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:13am LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:06am:
No. I really think you should check on the phrasing of your post about Glossolalia. It doesn't make much sense. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:16am mothra wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:13am:
Well good for you. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by The Grappler on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:20am
I wouldn't concern myself too much about LifeorDeath if I were you, Mothra. He is one confused soul with no real compass in life and nothing to support anything he posts.
The kids here - even those who are old kids - are all like that. No real idea at all. Not worth arguing with. They will always come back with another unsubstantial comment to support their unsubstantial comments... but can never support anything...... They're called Trolls for that reason, and are not worth arguing with. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:23am Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:20am:
Chucking a sulk over me calling you out on your self flagellation about being a national treasure in the other thread crappler? Very childish. Yes the old enemy of my enemy is my friend scenario. Mothra will jump on board as she does every troll. Have nice day kid. Thanks for playing. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:27am LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:23am:
Not a very Christian response. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:29am mothra wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:27am:
Why ? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:34am LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:29am:
Can't you work that out for yourself? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by The Grappler on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:40am LifeOrDeath wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:23am:
You offered nothing but your mouth - you achieve nothing. You are a joke. Offer me some proof that what you say is the real thing, then we'll talk. Your mouth is meaningless. Try again. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:42am mothra wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:34am:
You could have just said you can't answer that. But we both know that would never happen don't we. ;) |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:43am Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:40am:
and yet You offered nothing but your mouth - you achieve nothing. You are a joke. Offer me some proof that what you say is the real thing, then we'll talk. Your mouth is meaningless. The irony. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by The Grappler on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:44am mothra wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:34am:
No - he can't. A troll will just come back with any empty phrase as long as it opposes, and never provides one iota of proof. Hilarious when you see that they try to accuse others of the exact same thing. Laughable really - and not worth the time and trouble. When he can provide ONE iota of proof for one thing he says about people he does not know - I might listen. Until then, every time I see this nonsense, I laugh out loud. All of his mates and socks I treat with the same contempt. This one's for you, clown:- ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:52am Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:44am:
Yet you cant provide ONE iota of proof for one thing you say about yourself - if you did then people might take you seriously. Until then, every time we see your nonsense, we laugh out loud because of the clown you make of yourself. You have no one else to blame but yourself. All of your sillly self flagellating posts we treat as an absolute joke. The NASA cut and paste was a real cack when you were caught out red handed re-posting and modifying wikipedia HA HA. Keep the laughs coming crappler. Please do. ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by The Grappler on Nov 7th, 2015 at 3:01am
And yet every time I provide proof that things said are incorrect..... you, on the other hand, have never even provided on link to sustain any position......
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 7th, 2015 at 3:08am Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 3:01am:
Show me one single bit of proof just one CLOWN. ;D Where is this invisible proof ? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by The Grappler on Nov 7th, 2015 at 3:10am
You're the accuser.. you provide proof........
I just want to do you slowly.... |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by LifeOrDeath on Nov 7th, 2015 at 3:13am Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 3:10am:
You said you posted proof but you cannot show me where this proof is. You are a riot and a liar clown. You clearly have not posted any proof at all. Why did you lie ? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 7th, 2015 at 6:23am ____ wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 9:31pm:
Of course it is. I was a captive victim of this abuse at boarding school for 7 years. I've thought of suing for compensation through a cousin of mine who is a top barrister in London, but ... I can't be bothered ... and the publicity would turn me into a Reality TV celebrity on the news and Current Affairs programs which I would find 'invasive' of my privacy. 8-) It's a no-brainer that religious neurotics are given free reign under our laws to attempt to brainwash our children through fear of repercussions from the Divine Being. Wait until children grow up after having a religion-free education, and then as adults you can then try to persuade them to join your delusional cult about Super Hero sons of God, and virgin births, and Infallible Popes, and 72 choir boys in the Afterlife, etc etc. And meanwhile .... not boasting, but ... link If the Pope in the photo straightened his elbow ... that's what the Catholic church is really all about. Power over the peasants from the top-down. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 7th, 2015 at 7:51am mothra wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 8:40pm:
Once again, you are going to have to PROVE it. Your comments and claims alone are worthless. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 7th, 2015 at 8:23am mariacostel wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 7:51am:
Who killed Goliath and how? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 7th, 2015 at 8:27am Stratos wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 8:23am:
;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by athos on Nov 7th, 2015 at 9:05am ____ wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 6:30pm:
Ok pretending smarty dude Flukink is replacement F word that can't be typed here, you can say screwing, penetrating, bumping etc. Is it now clear. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by athos on Nov 7th, 2015 at 9:18am Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 6th, 2015 at 7:48pm:
Actually teaching children fictional religion that God and morality don't exist is a terrible child abuse. I would rather teach children "fictional" morality than bestial atheist and humanistic "reality". Children should be thought that's not normal that mail screws mail, woman screws woman and get certificate for that. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Greens_Win on Nov 7th, 2015 at 10:19am athos wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 9:05am:
So the postage mail goes through the sorting machines, bumping and grinding. Get a life. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 7th, 2015 at 10:24am athos wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 9:18am:
Stop shouting, Athole! ;D ;D ;D And stop fictionalising what I've said in my posts here. One more time for the slow learner at the back of the class:- Religion did not invent morality, ethics, social values, and virtue. It doesn't take a Son of God from a miraculous Virgin Birth to come up with the notion that it's to everyone's advantage if people treat others as they would wish to be treated themselves. This is not a Divine edict. This is an ethic that has been learnt from social experience and passed down from generation to generation. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by athos on Nov 7th, 2015 at 11:50am Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 10:24am:
Dear Lord Dick None normal wants to go to your self destructive classes of a decadent "civilization" that is disappearing in front of our eyes. You are last who can talk about morality because you don't have one. For the start have a look how arrogant you are. You, your decadent shopping civilization and those alike you think that arrogance is a strength and modesty is a weakness. You children of Social Darwinism are destine to vanish in own moral quasi humanistic garbage or to pass little left of your freedom to your masters, Wall Street Oligarch. You are nothing else than a moral cripple. "If there is no God everything is permitted" F.M. Dostoevsky Here is what message your Wall Street Master has to tell you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om6HcUUa8DI |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:29pm Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 6:23am:
That's is such rubbish. Firstly, your 'top barrister friend' is probably Grappleresque and it isn't as though he is going to do it for free. PLUS, you actually have to have a case. Being taught a topic you hated is not abuse. Being taught religion isn't brainwashing. You have no case and I doubt your barrister friend even exists. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:30pm Stratos wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 8:23am:
We only have one record of it. I presume therefore that you will reject it for some religious-aversion reason. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:29pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:30pm:
Debate is on contradictions now, not historicity. And there are three times Goliath is killed in the Bible, not one. Maybe you need to read it a bit closer? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:46pm Stratos wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 1:29pm:
I presume you are referring to the 1 Samuel passage where David is stated to have 'killed' him twice - once with the stone and once when cutting off his head. Don't you think that is a tad desperate? Modern translations tend to say 'killed' and 'finished him off' The other reference I believe is where modern translation refer to the giant Gittite - the BROTHER of Goliath. Some older translations refer to him simply as Goliath, reflecting an ancient tradition of a brother taking on another brothers name in the cause of revenge. It's not that hard. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 7th, 2015 at 3:39pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:46pm:
Yeah, with zero basis for doing so. Have a look at the original Hebrew if you don't believe me, don't take my word for it. mariacostel wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 2:46pm:
Incorrect, ALL older translations refer to him as Goliath. The words "the brother of" were added in by the King James translators, which then became quite popular. Seems they were quite frugal with the ninth commandment, just like you ;D. Nothing like a good lie to promote your religion, which condemns lies. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 7th, 2015 at 3:58pm Stratos wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 3:39pm:
Being the incredibly experienced translator of ancient texts that you obviously are, you would be aware that the old testament texts were not modern Hebrew. They were not modern literature using modern styles and structures. It didn't even have punctuation or spaces between words. translating such things is hard work. Just as modern writing often assumes a modern reader, ancient writing also assumed an ancient reader. They would have had no trouble at all with the brother assuming the older brother's name, especially when seeking revenge, just as brothers took slain brother's wives, children and property. The KJV adding in 'brother of' by way of appropriate translation, including the inferred meaning. Italicized text in the KJV are words - usually conjunctions - not in the original text but needed to make an English sentence. It is and was a common procedure as any actual translator would know. Have you ever translated anything before? Have you translated and ancient text eg Latin into English? I have. There is a reason why google translate hasn't replaced translators. You need to know more than your words and syntax. You have to also be cognizant with history and culture so as not to end up sounding like a fool - as you are doing. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 7th, 2015 at 4:24pm
Nonsense. Find me one reason to believe that it is referring to anyone other than Goliath from the original Hebrew.
Either your Bible is inconsistent, or someone at some point got something wrong. Either way, in the original form, there is a blatant contradiction. mariacostel wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 3:58pm:
Which is garbage in this case. Remove the words they added and the sentence works fine. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 7th, 2015 at 7:01pm Stratos wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 4:24pm:
It's not a contradiction at all. What it is, is something you refuse to accept an explanation for. You will go out of your way to find issues that you perceive to be contradictions and then refuse any and all explanations. It was the same with the 'eye-witness' issue. You simply rejected any and all evidence - and still do. This is not my first rodeo. Christian apologetics is a well-studied and well presented topic. But it does require one thing - an open mind and you do not bring that to the table. Your take on translation of ancient texts is embarrassingly bad and you certainly wont get any actual scholars to support you. Translation of any language to another is not mere word substitution and syntax matching. If that were the case, translators would be out of business. I've debated this kind of thing many times in the past. You are hardly the first. But there can not be any kind of civil or worthwhile debate if you simply reject all the evidence, including that of scholars in the field, just to maintain your anti-religious perspective. You have given absolutely no ground on any issue whatsoever. This debate is terminated on the basis that only one of us is actually debating. The other is screaming his distaste of God and I will not participate in that. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 7th, 2015 at 7:03pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:29pm:
It's a 'she'. mariacostel wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:29pm:
I never said it was. mariacostel wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:29pm:
It most certainly is, and the proof is in the pudding. People who are otherwise reasonable, intelligent, and educated go into a hypnotic state of delusional fantasizing when their 'religion' switch is pulled - and psychologists and psychiatrists can explain in detail the mechanisms that are functioning in the religious neurotic. mariacostel wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 12:29pm:
That sounds very much like childish petulance to me. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 7th, 2015 at 7:09pm
Notice how aggressive and un-Christian-like these bible jockeys become when you quietly tell them that religion was invented as a coping-mechanism for being better able to handle some of the more sad and disappointing moments in life ... the death of a loved one, etc.
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 7th, 2015 at 10:20pm
I think the story of Jericho is a good one about bible accuracy and acceptance of the historicity of the bible. When the wanderers of the desert, slaves from Egypt, for which there is no archaeological evidence, marched around Jericho, there was no walled city to march around. The exodus is fibs, the conquest of Canaan by Israelites is fibs as the Israelites were Canaanites and not newcomers, as archaeology shows. There was even a Mrs. El at one point.
Edit: Here from wiki which you all hate because it references it data. Quote:
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 7th, 2015 at 11:03pm Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 7:09pm:
Yet here it is you abusing them. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 7th, 2015 at 11:14pm He Man wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 11:03pm:
Where is the abuse? There is certainly questioning, disbelief,but no abuse. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 7th, 2015 at 11:16pm Setanta wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 11:14pm:
Calling people bible jockeys and saying religion was invented as a coping-mechanism for being better able to handle some of the more sad and disappointing moments in life ... the death of a loved one. When clearly that is his ignorant view that he cannot prove. What are you an athiest jocky ? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 7th, 2015 at 11:21pm He Man wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 11:16pm:
Well, bible jockey could be taken as abuse by someone with extremely thin skin, do you have that affliction? Saying it is a coping mechanism is in no way abuse. Just as observations of other mental illnesses symptoms is not abuse but classification. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 7th, 2015 at 11:34pm Setanta wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 11:21pm:
Nope I don't have that affliction but someone that cant debate the subject without calling someone a bible jockey strikes me as someone who has a very thin skin though.Saying it is a coping mechanism is a just theory and incredibly ignorant comment to make without proof. Just like someone posting an observance of a mental illness in someone that has a closed mind and the inability to learn or debate. Basically a non free thinker due to adherence to the atheistic religion. It never fails to amaze me why atheists seem to be the most unhappy people around. Maybe abusing people is their coping mechanism for unanswered questions in their lives. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 7th, 2015 at 11:40pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 7:01pm:
Your "eye-witness" is an anonymous author you, or anyone for that matter cannot identify. I have said this repeatedly, but here we are, you breaking the ninth commandment again for shame. mariacostel wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 7:01pm:
In other words, you refuse to answer any of the perfectly legitimate points I raised, and are now trying to take your bat and ball and go home. You know what adding extra phrases to make your argument seem stronger would be called in any other document? Forgery. But sadly, objectivity isn't something you or the King James translators seem to value :-[ |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 7th, 2015 at 11:40pm He Man wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 11:34pm:
The one that takes offence first has the thinnest skin around here it seems, that would be you on this one. Why do you need it and we don't? To those that don't it looks very much like a coping mechanism, it's an observation. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 7th, 2015 at 11:45pm Setanta wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 11:40pm:
No it isn't and no it wouldn't be. I just commented on it. Deal with it. Setanta wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 11:40pm:
But you do you have made your own coping mechanism. Everybody has a belief system. No need to abuse others because they don't share yours. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by issuevoter on Nov 7th, 2015 at 11:51pm
Quote He Man: It never fails to amaze me why atheists seem to be the most unhappy people around. Maybe abusing people is their coping mechanism for unanswered questions in their lives.
I cannot agree. A turban and a pious pose does not make a Muslim, and saying you don't believe in God does not make you an Atheist. I have read a great deal by so called Atheists and looked at their lives, and I don't see a preponderance unhappiness. Religious fanatics are famous for suicide. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:02am He Man wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 11:45pm:
Certainly. It doesn't involve a father figure in the clouds though. If I have to cope with consequences I have caused, I accept responsibility, and learn from it. I cope with things I cannot control or have an input into as c'est la vie. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:04am mariacostel wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 7:01pm:
As usual, when Longy is backed into a corner, he takes his bat and ball and runs home. Make sure mummy kisses the boo-boo better. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:05am Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 7:09pm:
If only Longy had one. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:06am Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:02am:
Not sure what religion does have a father figure in the clouds or was that you getting upset at people that believe in a god because you have the belief that god doesn't exist. What responsibility do you exactly accept. The one dictated to you that god does not exists that you blindly follow ? Most people cope with things they cannot control. They don't run around telling everyone they know if a god exists or not and getting upset. Only atheists with that belief do that. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:15am He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:06am:
I'm not upset and that is something you cannot make happen. Would invisible friend have been nicer? You do have a thin skin. No. if I f up I accept the consequences and learn from the experience. I'm not "forgiven". I'm not telling you that either, it's an assumption you have made, but you are right, I don't believe there is one. I could be wrong but if I am, god is nothing like any religion puts forth. Edit: I disbelieve in man's gods. All of them. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:26am Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:15am:
Cannot make what happen ? Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:15am:
Not sure what your question is here. What has that got to do with the existence of a God. Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:15am:
It takes a thinner skin to babble on about the fact you know there is no god when clearly you wouldn't know. Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:15am:
Learn from what experience. If a god does exist and you never accepted his salvation I'd say you are not forgiven by his standards if that is in fact what you are alluding too. Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:15am:
Cool that is your belief and others have theirs. Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:15am:
Yet you wouldn't know either way. Thats pretty closed minded. Do you blindly follow the people that teach you this stuff. Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:15am:
So I take it you believe in the non mans gods then. Or do you just stick to your belief system none exists based on mans knowledge. Thats a bit closed minded. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:42am He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:26am:
1: Make me upset. 2: Nicer than bible jockey? 3: I told you I don't know but I don't believe there is, especially any idea of god that man has had. You are the one sticking up for something and proclaiming it, not me. 4: Learn from the experiences life throws at you, when you f up, maybe you need to talk to Aquascoot. He'll explain it. How to be successful and all. 5: I don't think I have ever proclaimed that I am right. That doesn't preclude me believing you are wrong. 6: Yet you also don't know either way unless there's something you are hiding. I know you believe what other men have told you, you didn't discover your christ all by yourself. He was foisted upon you by your culture and/or parents. edit: re 6, I dare say you may well be praising allah if you were born elsewhere. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:56am Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:42am:
1. So you think I can't make you upset. Not sure what your point is. 2. Just another display of an atheist trying to make someone upset. Not sure why you think it would be any different. 3. Yes I said you have your belief and others theirs. I am sticking up for people atheists abuse when they themselves clearly would not know if a god existed or not. It is very childish to force their views on someone else when simply it is just based on their beliefs. 4 Everybody learns from lifes experiences, I fail to see why you make silly comments re aquascoot. 5 You can't prove that you are right that's my whole point as your belief is that I am wrong and you are free to hold that belief as I believe you are wrong. 6 I have my own reasons for belief I have no need to force my belief on you nor abuse you for not believing me. As far as hiding something goes that was a bit dramatic don't you think. I don't believe other men at all. They sparked my curiosity and in my life I have drawn my own conclusions and found what I consider truth and reality. Of course if Christ existed there would be stories about him. Of course if a God existed he would have made himself real to a seeker of him. If someone believes he is not real so be it. I fail to see the drama about running around crying imaginary friend, man in the sky and there is no god when clearly you wouldn't know. Its just your belief that you have. You have a right to believe just like the ones you try and be a smart ass too. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 8th, 2015 at 1:10am He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 12:56am:
Do you not make a bit of fun/take the of piss those you find foolish? I think I may have seen you exhibit that trait. The only time I even think about this is when you and the other believers bring it up. If you'll notice, I responded to you originally, not you me. And you clearly wouldn't know if there were any sky papas or not either, would you? Believers make a claim, a claim I cannot swallow. If there was no pushing of religions being true, we'd never speak of it again. If believers would just keep it to themselves. Like Jesus said, in ya closet. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 1:23am Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 1:10am:
The ones I know are foolish yes. Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 1:10am:
Well done. If people are fools by all means treat them as they want, fools. Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 1:10am:
That's nice. Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 1:10am:
So. Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 1:10am:
Yet you clearly wouldn't know what I know would you. That would be between me and God not you. You also have no proof there isn't a sky papa just for atheists. Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 1:10am:
Atheists make a claim a claim they cannot prove. Good for you don't swallow it then. Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 1:10am:
Clearly Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 1:10am:
If atheists would just keep their beliefs to themselves too. To be clear Jesus never said in ya closet he said take the Gospel message to the ends of the Earth and share the good news. You reject His message then so be it. Others are happy for you to have your belief. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:43am He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 1:23am:
No they don't. What exactly do you think an atheist is? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:38am Setanta wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 11:40pm:
A psychiatrist once said to me: "What religion does to some people, we have to undo". |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by athos on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:41am Stratos wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:43am:
Definition: Atheism is a religion that believes in God's nonexistence. There are atheist churches particularly across the western world. Some scholars consider atheists as spiritual cripples. Similar like blind people who don't have vision, atheists have no spiritual and mental capacity to recognize God's existence. Some experts think that combination of counseling and proper medication can help them to overcome their disability. Recent survey found that large number of homosexuals are also atheists. Typical for atheists and homosexuals is they are extremely aggressive in convincing people they are right which requires very diplomatic and tactful approach in discussions with them. Here Are Some Atheist Churches https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1t-WEk0DOk |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:44am He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 1:23am:
Become a bugger*** door-knocker, in other words ... Thanks, Jesus, but do you see us atheists knocking on doors to upset people having their dinner and enjoying a little peace after a hard day at the office? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by athos on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:46am Atheist Church London. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eF8x2wwLkM |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:54am
Thanks for that, Athos. I didn't know they've formed a church.
Personally, I'm not an atheist but an agnostic just like everyone else - that is, I'm a 'Don't Really Know' person - (just like everyone else on this planet, including the Pope, gandalf, and Freediver). Incidentally, I regard religious people as being patients, and as such I'm careful to adopt my best bedside manner when talking to them. The expression: "To have faith" is a nonsense, of course. It's wishful-thinking just like the New Guinea natives have their Cargo Cult waiting for planes to drop goodies from the sky. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:02am Setanta wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 10:20pm:
Well it is wiki... However, other sources show that there is ample evidence for the existence of Jericho and they have found and excavated a city that was found to have been destroyed by fire - as the Biblical account claims. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:03am Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:38am:
Not much of a claim given the failures of psychiatry and the damage it has caused many. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:23am mariacostel wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:03am:
That's a classical piece of non sequitur - but I heartily agree with you that psychiatry has so far been a dismal failure whose main beneficiaries have been the drug companies and the vastly over-paid Pretenders who are attracted to this snake-oil profession. My one and only praise of psychiatrists is that at one time they were the profession with the highest suicide rate - and for this they should be congratulated heartily for at least being people of sincere conscience and remorse for the fraudulent service that most of them provide. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:14am mariacostel wrote on Nov 7th, 2015 at 7:51am:
I already did. Read back. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Kytro on Nov 8th, 2015 at 2:20pm athos wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:41am:
While there are some people who make the claim the "God does not exist", most atheists don't. They simply lack a positive belief in the existence of God/s. There are also groups of atheists that get together and share common interests, but that is incidental to being an atheist. One does not require anything other not having a belief in God to be an atheist, that's it. With they way most religions treat homosexuals, I'm not surprised. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 8th, 2015 at 2:52pm
The correct description is that atheists assert there is definitely no god, while agnostics say the science is not in yet, and so it's impossible to make a determination one way or the other.
The Believers say they want to believe there is a god - and that 'He' is a benign god ... and that all you need is FAITH in order to sustain this wishful-thinking for the rest of your life. The vast majority of psychologists and psychiatrists are not religious, and that's because they know the mechanisms that are operating in the human psyche that give rise to religious belief, and this, despite it being based upon superstition, wishful-thinking, and neurotic fears instilled by priests and Sunday School teachers in ones earliest years. But I would never dissuade anyone from his religious beliefs. We are all of us patients of one psychological infirmity or another, and if religion acts as a palliative and a comfort for some - then who am I to deny them this? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mitasol on Nov 8th, 2015 at 3:16pm
Religion was invented to explain the inexplicable at a time when scientific research was not at the level that it is today. Somewhere along the line a bunch of twats decided that they could use it to control the masses, viz the inquisition -
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton! Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms—oh damn! Surely we are now at a stage where the theatre of religion is no longer needed |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ex Dame Pansi on Nov 8th, 2015 at 3:48pm mitasol wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 3:16pm:
The believers need to convince themselves there is a god, that's why they need to keep pushing it onto each other the whole time.....just in case they start to explore other possibilities. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 8th, 2015 at 5:23pm mitasol wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 3:16pm:
That's a moot point. Needless to say, religion is the drug of choice for most people, and as an addictive recreational activity it undoubtedly carries with it certain therapeutic benefits. Where I differ from the mob is that I am dead set against this form of mind-game being thrust upon the suggestible minds of the very young. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 8th, 2015 at 5:36pm Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 5:23pm:
Have you ever considered that you might be completely wrong? Ever considered there might actually be a God? That would make you a bit of a fool, wouldn't it? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 8th, 2015 at 5:38pm mothra wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:14am:
We've seen and read you before with your childish understanding of 'proof'. You have an awfully ignorant and juvenile understanding of the concept. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 8th, 2015 at 5:39pm mitasol wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 3:16pm:
Not even remotely true. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 8th, 2015 at 5:42pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 5:38pm:
This coming from the person who has provided not one bit of proof for an entire thread that wa from a secular historian and failed to qualify your claim of eyewitnesses. I provided proof. Go back and find it. I'd like to see you refute anything i copied in. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 8th, 2015 at 5:44pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 5:36pm:
Do you think that you would be a fool if you were wrong Maria? Is that the binary way in which you think? One side is being foolish? Because the weight of evidence suggests it's you. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:21pm mothra wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 5:42pm:
hmmm.... why should proof come from a 'secular historian' assuming you can even determine who is and isn't 'secular'? Like Stratos you come to the debate with an agenda, but unfortunately both of you leave your intellectual integrity behind. John's Gospel is an eye-witness account and nobody really debates that. Stratos however things that because he waited decades to write it, it somehow becomes no long an eye-witness account. You have zero idea of what evidence of proof mean. You take your own opinion, wrap it up in gullibility and ignorance and then serve it up on a plate and wonder why people think it is crap instead. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:23pm mothra wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 5:44pm:
If YOU think that YOU disprove the existence of God then go for it. You would be the first. HINT: Proof is the big boys definition of proof, meaning absence or error and other big words you trip up over. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:26pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 5:36pm:
There might actually be purple unicorns living in your garden, too. However, there's as much proof to substantiate that claim as there is to prove the existence of a God. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:30pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:23pm:
Where did i even remotely suggest that i could disprove the existence of God Maria? You really shouldn't just make things up. I said i could prove that the the Bible is filled with inconsistencies and inaccuracies. I did, You haven't challenged any of the points i raised and now, backed into a corner, you are being just nasty again. Very Chiristian-like. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:37pm mothra wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:30pm:
If you cannot disprove the existence of God then clearly you cannot discount His existence - which was the point I was trying to make. Apparently, you finally worked it out. I have challenged all your points quite successfully, but you simply refuse to accept any explanations, any evidence or proofs, because you have a narrative to support. The Bible says that when you seek for truth you will find it. Conversely, if you refuse to accept truth then you will never find it. You are the latter. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:40pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:21pm:
It'd be nice if other "people" were not spoken for by you. Perhaps the word "I" instead. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:42pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:37pm:
No. You haven't. Not a one. This thread has been a spectacular exercise in dodging verification by you. You've made all of these preposterous claims and not backed up a single one of them. And i have no narrative to suport Maria. You do though, And you are doing a very poor job of supporting it. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:45pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:37pm:
So because i haven't found your 'truth' Maria, i'm what then? Damned? Is that why you treat people with such disrespect? Because you think they're damned anyway? Are you as rude to other Christians as you are to people on here? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:47pm mothra wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:42pm:
Actually it has been a spectacular example of how you and stratos ignore or refute anything brought to you. Not by compelling argument or contrary-fact, but solely by opinion. 'eye-witness' means different things to stratos and... well everyone else. I would thoroughly enjoy a spirited debate on Christian apologetics. It is a fascinating and detailed topic. The trouble is that both of you bring hopeless levels of bias and blindness to the debate and only one of you brings any intelligence (and mothra, it ain't you). These debates require education and a degree of integrity and character one does not often find here. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:53pm
One secular historian to support your case Maria. That's all i asked for.
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:55pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:47pm:
Who wrote John's gospel? Answer that question and you may very well have an eyewitness. Probably have quite a few awards heading your way too for solving a great mystery. No author is named, it could have been written by anybody at any time before the year ~95 AD. You have an anonymous author, no eyewitness, and are now either being deliberately obtuse or in denial. I have explained this to you several times and you have not provided any answers as to who wrote the book. So name who you believe wrote the book and we can investigate the evidence that they did so. Until then, stop avoiding the question, and breaking the ninth commandment. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:57pm mothra wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:53pm:
I was more generous. I would be convinced by one account that was contemporary to Jesus proposed lifetime, either written or archaeological. Maria didn't give any, and as far as I'm aware there isn't any. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:07pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 5:36pm:
Yes I have. You yourself must have asked this question of yourself at some time in the past - and apparently the answer that made most sense to you from a logical perspective was "Hell no! I'm completely right in believing there's a god!" So ... walk us through the process that led you to this conclusion. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:08pm Stratos wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:43am:
Yes they do. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. Older dictionaries define atheism as "a belief that there is no God." Which dictionary do you prefer to come under when you say God does not exist because you believe he doesn't ? Something which you cannot prove which negates running around sooking over people that believe there is one. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:09pm Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:07pm:
How about you walk us through the process that led you to tell people there is no god ? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:10pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:47pm:
True |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:15pm greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:26pm:
Precisely. This horny hypothetical is sure to slam-dunk Maria into the middle of next week. Meanwhile, turn out the lights last one to leave, please. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:16pm He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:08pm:
This is the same as a total disbelief that there are no gods though you see? You do not need to 100% deny something exists to not believe in it. If I were for example to ask you if you are totally sure that the Yeti does not exist, if you honest were you would probably come to the answer, no. This doesn't mean you are claiming that yetis cannot possibly exist, it just means that you don't believe they do. A disbelief in something does not necessitate a denial of their existence. I will continue to not believe in gods (or yetis) until such evidence presents itself. (feel free to replace "yeti" with your substitute favourite mythological creature :P) |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:16pm He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:08pm:
Not any I know. For me it's a case of lack of belief in gods because it's unreasonable to believe something without evidence, just because someone said so. I don't sook over believers, I disagree with them, you on the other hand seem to sook over non-believers, trying to tell them what atheism is and that their non-belief is a belief. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:17pm He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:09pm:
I'm an agnostic, remember? I am 'without knowledge' of a god. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:20pm Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:16pm:
Don;t forget they squabble about what branch of Christianity they believe. He Man here, well 'he' doesn't like Catholics but Maria is mad about them. They conveniently avoid taking each other on about it though. I wonder if they secretly think the other is damned like they see to think the rest of us are? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:25pm Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:17pm:
What do you consider knowledge of a god ? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Dnarever on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:27pm ____ wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:30pm:
So much for TV. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:28pm Stratos wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:16pm:
You are free to have your belief that a god does not exists. You are also free not to get upset over other who do believe. "You do not need to 100% deny something exists to not believe in it. " You do to say they do not exist. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:30pm Dnarever wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:27pm:
Greens are out back hugging trees singing kum bay yah while everyone else is watching the tele when they aren't chained to a gate at the local mine. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:31pm He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:28pm:
Thanks for letting me not observe the first commandment :)! I don't actually have that belief though I am an agnostic atheist. I do not claim to know whether deities exist, but based on the evidence, I do not think they do. As I have repeatedly said, i'm happy to change my mind if the evidence presents itself (maybe help Maria with those "eyewitness" statements) |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:59pm Stratos wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:31pm:
So you believe they don't exist. What do you call evidence exactly when seeking if a god exists ? Stratos wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:31pm:
Maybe you could explain what you consider evidence of a god existing and put your money where your mouth is ? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Jovial Monk on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:03pm
Good grief, with what we know about the universe how can any sane person believe in Genesis? And if you don’t believe in that why believe the rest of the gobbledygook?
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Jovial Monk on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:06pm
The Wailing Wall—nobody knows what that is a remnant of. No archeological evidence of Kings David or Solomon is known to exist.
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:13pm Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:03pm:
How long was a day in Genesis Einstein , do explain Genesis to use all. This will be riveting. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:13pm Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:06pm:
Ask the jews. They built it didn't they ? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:21pm He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 7:09pm:
As an agnostic I walk people through the fact that I don't have the intellectual tools to know if there is a god or not. I lack the arrogance to assert that I know there is a god. But! Secondly, I enjoy telling them that if there is a god - then 'He' is far more in the nature of being a Lego builder in this universe than a moral Being who intercedes on behalf of innocent suffering. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:26pm He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:13pm:
Before or after the sun existed? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:29pm Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:06pm:
Reminds me of a joke I read... http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1425638147/75#75 |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:33pm Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:21pm:
Yet you ridicule others by being a smart ass as if they are in some way inferior to you when in reality they actually may not be. Yet you seem to think a god should intervene on human suffering created by humans. Would that not negate the fact that he allows human free will. Would you prefer we all be robots and non free thinkers and doers ? That would be an immoral god removing free will. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:34pm Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:26pm:
Both. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:37pm He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:34pm:
Please explain it for me. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:47pm Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:37pm:
You asked the question you explain it to me. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 8th, 2015 at 9:04pm He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:47pm:
I was trying to clarify your question. "How long was a day in Genesis Einstein" So... How long is a day? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 9:07pm Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 9:04pm:
I said "How long was a day in Genesis Einstein , do explain Genesis to use all. This will be riveting. " Are you illiterate ? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 8th, 2015 at 9:13pm He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 9:07pm:
No, by calling him Einstein as a put down, you must know the answer. How long was a day in Genesis to you and how do you know it? Obviously after the sun was created and the Earth started spinning a day would equal a day now. What was a day in the universe before the sun and the stars were created? A day didn't exist. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 9:23pm Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 9:13pm:
Really , what was the word used to call it a day as you say in the original hebrew ? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 8th, 2015 at 9:31pm He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 9:23pm:
Are you saying a Hebrew day was not day as we know it? We shall not know the day of his return, let alone what a day means? What is this day you speak of? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 9:36pm Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 9:31pm:
So you don't know what the Hebrew word was that you translate to say day . Maybe you should do some research about that which you post before making out you actually know what you are talking about santa. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 8th, 2015 at 9:40pm He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 9:36pm:
What difference does it make if I know the Hebrew word for a day? If translaters translated it to "day" it means the same thing. What is this other seemingly mythical day measurement that you speak about? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 9:45pm Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 9:40pm:
What does the original word mean santa don't you know ? Its really easy to look up, do you know how to look things up that you post santa ? Or do you just know how to make posts calling things mythical because you are lazy to teach yourself something ? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 8th, 2015 at 9:52pm He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 9:45pm:
You know, you are seemingly proclaiming to know, speak up. No need to start on calling me santa, you won't get any presents, you've been a bad boy. So HerMan, what is a day to you? Do you abide by your bosses day? What is a day but the spin of the Earth in relation to the sun? Perhaps god created the world in the night if there was no sun. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:07pm Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 9:52pm:
Sorry I took a liberty since we you were playing smart asses setanta. Apologies. BTW I laughed at HerMan that was good one, for that, I give you a seven. Which translates to one browney point. To educate you I have found a site you can read regarding the day in question. You should learn a thing or two I would imagine. Start here then go google you will learn a thing or two. http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/genesis.html I read that one picking it at random as a starting point for your learning. You may like to look up STRONGS regarding the word in question to further your study.. of your mythically real word pertaining to a day. You're welcome. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:15pm He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:07pm:
What is your take on a day? We also have different takes on the word "day": daylight hours, 24 hours, not night. You can not extrapolate any of those into an indefinite period of time. Well... Perhaps you can, maybe that's how Jews got a bad man with money. I'll pay you back today. A day being whatever TF they wanted it to be. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:19pm Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:15pm:
I gave you a link to information on the day in question in the context of its use. That was what you wanted that was what you got. Of course I agree with its use in context. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Jovial Monk on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:27pm He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:13pm:
Those Jews have been dead for thousands of years. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:28pm He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:19pm:
Yes you did and I read most of it. It's basically claiming that a day can be an indefinite period of time. How convenient. Edit: I should have added something... How convenient for those that need it to be so for their argument. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:32pm Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:28pm:
Its not claiming anything, it is explaining to you the definition of the word used. Learn instead of acting like you are thick or something. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:36pm He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:32pm:
Sounds like bullshit someone makes up to support their argument. Considering the site's goals, do you have something more? Perhaps a Jew saying it? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:39pm Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:36pm:
Go have a google, lets face it you're not here to actually learn anything intellectually. You started chucking a spaz, I corrected you, you were pwned. Move on with your life I find this incredibly boring now. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Setanta on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:44pm He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:39pm:
Even if I take it that a day in Hebrew can mean I can borrow your money forever, out of the three meanings, why are you applying that one? Why is it not 24 hours or 12 hour period? What is your rationale beyond convenience of belief? Anyway, bed for me. 'nite Arminius. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:59pm Setanta wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:44pm:
Incorrect. I am applying nothing, that was the word used. Nice try though. Lets face it we both knew you weren't here to learn anything you just thought you could waltz in and shove your view down others peoples throats who you thought would just gobble it up. You pretended to actually know what you were talking about. Which clearly you didn't. Have a good one. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by The Grappler on Nov 9th, 2015 at 2:55am He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 10:59pm:
Careful - your paranoia and inferiority complex are showing.... |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Phemanderac on Nov 9th, 2015 at 6:12am
Well according to this link
http://creationists.org/how-long-is-a-day-in-the-bible.html Day most definitely means six 24 hour periods... So, how long is a day in Genesis? 24 hours.... That said, before there was a sun in would have just been Yom according to Hebrew - however, one could not have a given number of indefinite periods... |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 9th, 2015 at 7:38am Stratos wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 6:55pm:
As you would be aware (if you had any classic education), many ancient manuscripts did not have 'author pages' or such attributions. A lot has changed in literature over the millennia. The author describes himself as 'the disciple Jesus love' - a title that John is generally considered to have had. Then we have the title of the book itself. Also, the book of Revelation by the Apostle John. The style is identical. I realise that for you this is not proof, but then there isn't any real proof that you would or could accept. The reasons to doubt John's authorship are far fewer than those to accept it. That is what we call 'balance of probabilities' since virtually everything about the ancient world is not directly provable. And you need to stop breaking the first commandment. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 9th, 2015 at 7:40am Phemanderac wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 6:12am:
The ancient Hebrew word for 'age' is the same as 'day'. Also, we have to consider if the Creation story is literal or figurative. The latter is probably more likely, but neither change the essential truth that God created the universe. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 9th, 2015 at 7:47am mariacostel wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 7:38am:
The Paline books have attributions loud and clear. Usually right at the start that you can't miss! Even your own holy book doesn't agree with this statement! mariacostel wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 7:38am:
The title was not given to the book, they were added in later. Also why it is sometimes referred to as "the fourth gospel" mariacostel wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 7:38am:
Again, more nonsense. Look at a random selection of Christian scholars from all areas, and most will not say that there is proof that it was written by John. In fact, the debate seems to be more over author's (plural) than one singular person. mariacostel wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 7:38am:
Sorry, unlike your God I'm a big fan of religious freedom 8-). |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 9th, 2015 at 10:23am He Man wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:33pm:
;D ;D ;D This old chestnut. Free will. Is it 'Free Will' that brings a boy to be a vulture's next meal? If 'Free Will' is the cause of all this misery to happen to innocent victims, then it follows logically that in order for humans to eliminate or at least minimise this suffering it's then necessary to regiment society almost to the point where we are automatons - hence you've defeated your own argument. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 9th, 2015 at 10:26am Stratos wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 7:47am:
Multicultural Jesus! I like that. ;D Mind you, doesn't the Bible give blacks a bad serve? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 9th, 2015 at 10:35am Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 10:23am:
Look at that! You actually get it! 'Free Will' is a twin-edged sword. And for an earthly example, take a look at USSR. It was one of the safest and crime-free societies ever. So is North Korea. Freedom... it comes with a price and yet, is still worth it. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 9th, 2015 at 10:42am mariacostel wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 10:35am:
Auschwitz 9/11 800,000 butchered in Uganda The Gulags. Wars and Pestilence. Cancer. etc And then your 'god' created a planet where life sustains itself by stalking and eating its other occupants ... That is not a moral god - that's a Warrior God whose tastes run to blood-and-gore, and the suffering of countless humans and animals at any one time. This is a Family Program, so I won't tell you what I think of your Hero-God-Lord-of-the-Universe. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 9th, 2015 at 10:45am Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 10:26am:
Old Testament gives most people who don't worship God a bad serve. In other times, the 'curse of Ham" was used as justification for mistreatment of Blacks though. Nowhere does it mention he was actually dark skinned though. The tradition was that Ham fled south from the Middle East and Africans were his descendants. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 9th, 2015 at 10:48am Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 10:42am:
There are some ultra fundamentalist Christians that believe that because before Adam and Eve ate the fruit, the Bible says there was no death, so therefore no carnivores. As in, literally every creature on earth was vegetarian, including the T-Rex |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 9th, 2015 at 10:49am Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 10:42am:
And yet when anything good happens - like the continued existence of Planet Earth in an universe that is hostile to life - you say nothing. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 9th, 2015 at 11:11am Stratos wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 10:48am:
;D ;D ;D There were some wonderful Science Fiction writers back then in biblical times. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 9th, 2015 at 11:48am Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 11:11am:
I wish I was talking stone age beliefs. Google it for yourself, there are a whole bunch of websites that spruik this kind of drivel. I guess that's what happens when you decide something cannot possibly be wrong in any regard against all reason. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by double plus good on Nov 9th, 2015 at 11:49am Stratos wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 11:48am:
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 9th, 2015 at 11:51am double plus good wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 11:49am:
Just because you support somebodies rights to express their religion Double, doesn't mean you have to believe in it. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 9th, 2015 at 11:52am Stratos wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 11:48am:
You also decide that it can't possibly be right - also without reason. BTW the absolute irony is that when you brought up David and Goliath, you were actually a messenger from God to my hubby and I. The details are private, but it is odd how God sends lessons and so on via the oddest of people. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 9th, 2015 at 11:55am double plus good wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 11:49am:
No I didn't. I pointed out the hypocrisy of letting one group do it for decades while getting outraged when another does it. I really am quite apathetic about the whole matter, and while I think it could have been handled better by both sides, I don't think that anyone should be forced to sing the national anthem. Now I'm calling Maria out on her BS claim about there being eyewitnesses to Jesus, just as I would if a Muslim claimed there were lots of eyewitnesses for Muhammad. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by double plus good on Nov 9th, 2015 at 11:55am mothra wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 11:51am:
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 9th, 2015 at 11:57am mariacostel wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 11:52am:
No I haven't, where have I made such a claim. One contemporary account, written or archaeological is all I ask. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 9th, 2015 at 11:58am double plus good wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 11:55am:
It is. But that doesn't mean you get to just make stuff up. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by double plus good on Nov 9th, 2015 at 12:02pm mothra wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 11:58am:
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 9th, 2015 at 12:03pm double plus good wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 12:02pm:
No I didn't. I made my thought very clear on the previous comment. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mothra on Nov 9th, 2015 at 12:05pm double plus good wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 12:02pm:
Nobody is ridiculing anything. We are just asking Maria to stop making things up. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by double plus good on Nov 9th, 2015 at 12:05pm Stratos wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 12:03pm:
There is a religious minority that on principle does not sing any national anthems because their beliefs state that they belong to their God and not to any earthly country. They have been doing this since their inception and also do not participate in any commemorations of armed conflict such as ANZAC day. Funnily enough I've never heard anybody complain about Jehovah's Witnesses doing this however. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 9th, 2015 at 12:07pm
How is that "backing up this stupid belief"
Again, I was pointing out hypocrisy, not condoning or condemning the practice. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by double plus good on Nov 9th, 2015 at 12:19pm Stratos wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 12:07pm:
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by He Man on Nov 9th, 2015 at 12:33pm double plus good wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 12:02pm:
Trolling comes to mind. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 9th, 2015 at 12:46pm double plus good wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 12:19pm:
Funny how reverential to the the national anthem you are when you clearly don't remember the first line. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lord Herbert on Nov 9th, 2015 at 2:38pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 10:49am:
You're becoming delirious. Just CALM DOWN! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkVoo6lkJhQ |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 9th, 2015 at 6:23pm
Hey Lisa (if you are still reading), if you want to ask me what I thought of John, ask away.
Finished reading it. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by double plus good on Nov 9th, 2015 at 6:25pm Stratos wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 12:46pm:
Still sticking up for Islam I see. Singing the national anthem was a drag when I was at school. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 9th, 2015 at 6:29pm double plus good wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 6:25pm:
Nope, pointing out hypocrisy is not condoning. I have pointed this out several times, but maybe your comprehension is lacking. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by double plus good on Nov 9th, 2015 at 6:50pm Stratos wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 6:29pm:
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 9th, 2015 at 6:51pm double plus good wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 6:50pm:
And we all accept that. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by double plus good on Nov 9th, 2015 at 6:59pm greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 6:51pm:
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 9th, 2015 at 7:07pm double plus good wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 6:50pm:
How can you have a "complete reversal" on two entirely different topics. 1) I point out the hypocrisy of getting outraged at Muslims refusing to participate in the anthem, due to an existing religion doing this sans outrage. 2)I ask Maria to back up her claim regarding eyewitness testimony of Jesus (Hi Maria, still waiting by the way ;D) Apart from the subject of religion these topics are not even remotely similar |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by double plus good on Nov 9th, 2015 at 7:09pm Stratos wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 7:07pm:
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 9th, 2015 at 7:17pm double plus good wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 7:09pm:
Nope, just one lying poster. There are some parts about Christianity I am quite fond of, ironically one being the ninth commandment (which Maria keeps breaking). You might want to familiarise yourself with it when you say things like this: double plus good wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 7:09pm:
Bearing false witness much? I am not defending it, nor indeed any religion. There are many things about Islam I am perfectly happy to criticise. While on the topic of historicity, why not start with the fact that the oldest Koran is apparently older than Muhammad, which makes the claim that it was revealed to him false (or that Muhammad lived a chunk earlier than is claimed). |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 14th, 2015 at 5:30pm Stratos wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 6:23pm:
Ohhhhh there you are Stratos lol! So you've now read the Gospel of John in its entirety? Did you like the ending? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 14th, 2015 at 6:07pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 5:30pm:
I personally am a bit more of a fan of the synoptic gospels to be honest. The end of John is a bit more out there than the others with all the miracles after the resurrection account, and Jesus hanging about for ages afterwards. In fact, I prefer the way Jesus is depicted far better in the older gospels, much more of the "tragic hero" sort of character than the much more divine sounding record in John. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 14th, 2015 at 6:14pm Stratos wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 6:07pm:
Ha! I meant the actual ending of the gospel......ie John Chapter 21 verses 24 & 25. Did you notice anything in those verses? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 14th, 2015 at 6:22pm
The accreditation? Anything in particular about it?
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Aussie on Nov 14th, 2015 at 6:24pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 6:14pm:
Plenty of people have and there is no definitive outcome. Link. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 14th, 2015 at 7:06pm Stratos wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 6:22pm:
There's nothing in the final verses of the final chapter of the Gospel of John about who wrote that Gospel? Nothing at all? Niente? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 14th, 2015 at 7:30pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 7:06pm:
I am sure it wont meet the "Stratos Standard". He declares his standard of proof in a simple way: 'one level above that which is offered'. John claims authorship and being an eye-witness, but by virtue of the stratos method, that fails. Of course, no single person in antiquity passes this methodology and so the entirely of history just evaporates - according to stratos. But no... wait... SECULAR history is supported by this method by almost no evidence at all, but religious history needs video proof along with testimony from witnesses - still living of course. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by mariacostel on Nov 14th, 2015 at 7:31pm Stratos wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 6:07pm:
Of course you do. Can't have any of that 'miracle' stuff now, can we? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 14th, 2015 at 7:49pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 7:06pm:
It mentions "The Disciple Jesus Loved", a title that has been debated for centuries. It does not mention a particular person. Don't you think that if it was the disciple John it would have mentioned it? The works by Paul clearly show that early Christian scriptures could have explicit authorship, but none of the gospels do this at all. Keep in mind that the title of the book was not added in until much much later. mariacostel wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 7:31pm:
Maybe you read a different account of Mark. Chapter one, bam, exorcism and miracle healings. But the character of Jesus to me is a lot more human than other accounts. Mark has plenty of miracles, but the narrative is extremely different to John. mariacostel wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 7:30pm:
"John" doesn't claim anything in the book. mariacostel wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 7:30pm:
I have mentioned what would convince me 100% of the existence of Jesus, and have provided several examples of characters that appear in the Gospels (Herod and Pilate) that have contemporary evidence (historical accounts or archaeological evidence) that places them squarely where they are in history. No such evidence exists for Jesus however. Are you still clinging to your claim that there are many eyewitnesses to Jesus by the way? If so, please provide them. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 14th, 2015 at 7:59pm
Oy vey ::)
STRATOS : 1. READ THE 2ND LAST VERSE OF THE GOSPEL OF JOHN. 2. COME BACK AND TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANS. Thank you. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 14th, 2015 at 8:07pm
That it claims that it was written by a disciple of Jesus.
Just so we are on the same page, which Bible translation are you using? I used a few when reading it. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 14th, 2015 at 8:16pm Stratos wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 8:07pm:
Authorized King James Version of 1611. I refuse to read any other English Bible. FYI....I also have a few Greek Bibles on hand. Anyway..... The 2nd last verse of the Gospel of John states : "This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true." Now Stratos, what do you think this verse is actually saying? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 14th, 2015 at 8:25pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 8:16pm:
May I ask why? Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 8:16pm:
Like I said, that it is claimed to have been written ( or based on another written account possibly?) by a disciple of Jesus. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Aussie on Nov 14th, 2015 at 8:34pm Stratos wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 8:25pm:
Correct....it is hearsay upon hearsay etc etc etc and there is scholarly dispute which even includes suggestions of late editing. But, no doubt Lisa Jones is above all that, and has the definitive answer. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 14th, 2015 at 8:43pm Aussie wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 8:34pm:
I haven't heard that specifically for this passage. There are some quite well known examples (the end of Mark most strikingly) What specifically in this part has been suggested to be added later? |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Aussie on Nov 14th, 2015 at 8:48pm Stratos wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 8:43pm:
Stratos.....I've just been googling and there was one site (I have no idea which one now) which included that suggestion. What is quite clear is that no-one knows, and anyone who claims to have greater understanding now of something allegedly written (and interpreted so many times since) around 90AD is kidding themself. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Neferti on Nov 15th, 2015 at 1:22pm Aussie wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 8:48pm:
Why don't you ALL just open your BIBLE and read it and interpret it as YOU see fit? Googling to find out what "everybody else" is saying or thinking is ridiculous. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 15th, 2015 at 1:53pm Neferti wrote on Nov 15th, 2015 at 1:22pm:
This is not only about textual interpretation, it is also about the history of the documents. You can learn many things from them, but not merely from reading them. See previous example of the titles of the gospels not given for a very long time. You need to understand the background in order to make sense of certain aspects. I agree though. Wish Maria would read hers properly and realise there is no indication that John the Apostle wrote anything. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Neferti on Nov 15th, 2015 at 2:09pm Stratos wrote on Nov 15th, 2015 at 1:53pm:
Right. So the "documents" are how many eons old? Hollywood Movies about religious stuff isn't relevant. The Bible is a boring "novel", NOT an official BIOGRAPHY. Written a very long time after events by people who weren't even there. Why people bother reading it, other than to be "holier than thou" escapes me. Do you really think that you will end up in Heaven, Stratos? With all those "holier than thou" people there, I would prefer to go to Hell, IF there was such a place. Meanwhile, when I die .... |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 15th, 2015 at 2:43pm Neferti wrote on Nov 15th, 2015 at 2:09pm:
Oldest piece we have could be as early as ~120 Neferti wrote on Nov 15th, 2015 at 2:09pm:
Congrats, you know more about the Bible than Maria. ;D Neferti wrote on Nov 15th, 2015 at 2:09pm:
Interesting topic of debate, but no. I don't believe in the afterlife. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 20th, 2015 at 9:45am
Maria, because you think I'm being unreasonable, I think I should restate what I've said previously.
I have, and still maintain that there is no contemporary evidence from Jesus supposed timeline that suggests he exists, but I'm open to being proved wrong on that. A single piece of archaeological or written evidence about Jesus from the time the events are said to have occurred will convince me that at the very least a historical person exists beyond reasonable doubt. if you can provide said evidence then this discussion can be ended in minutes. My standard of any archaeological evidence form the time of the events applies to the other Biblical characters which there is contemporary accounts for such as Pilate, who we know about from other writings as well as the archaeological Pilate Stone, and Herod, who we have numerous accounts of, as well as archaeological evidence, including his tomb. Unless there is a good reason to (obvious tampering with Josephus works for example) I won't discount anything as a fraud or fake. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 25th, 2015 at 11:51pm Stratos wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 8:25pm:
Who made that "claim"? I'm asking because it doesn't appear to be solid....in fact it sounds too vague to even be regarded as a "claim". Re KJV (1611) English Bible..... do you not agree that it's a very reliable (if not the most reliable) English version of the Holy Bible? NB Apologies for the delay in posting. I have not had any time to be online for some time, thanks to real life and all its busy deadlines etc. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by beer on Nov 26th, 2015 at 6:58am Stratos wrote on Nov 20th, 2015 at 9:45am:
I really don't understand why do you argue with religous people? You are trying to tell an ant what is triangle, they will never learn. The capability to study has limit to each brain, don't waste your time on this. Most of time religeon is good rulling system, you see it as a political rulling tool. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 26th, 2015 at 7:44am Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 25th, 2015 at 11:51pm:
I don't know. I don't believe there is any evidence that points to one particular historical person. Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 25th, 2015 at 11:51pm:
Generally it's fine. I don't see any reason to maintain the thees and thous, but to each their own. edit: Oh, the 1611 version is the one you read? I'm surprised it's in print, it got revised a bunch of times after that, mostly to fix typos and copy errors. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Phemanderac on Nov 26th, 2015 at 8:31am beer wrote on Nov 26th, 2015 at 6:58am:
Don't pick on ants, they might never know what a triangle is, but they are better at weather forecasting that we might ever be. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by beer on Nov 26th, 2015 at 8:55am Phemanderac wrote on Nov 26th, 2015 at 8:31am:
They might be good at weather forecasting, but in the hot days like today, I found lots of them on the path I walked crashed by my shoes. The limit of memory, processing ability, sensations, led them to death without even knowing the reason. That's why science is important, in the universe, who knows are we ants or not. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Sir lastnail on Nov 26th, 2015 at 9:08am beer wrote on Nov 26th, 2015 at 6:58am:
Because they are in your face on every street corner spreading their god gobbing muck and taking material money away from the gullible :( |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by beer on Nov 26th, 2015 at 11:44am Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 26th, 2015 at 9:08am:
Don't worry, you can look at them as officers from ATO who collect some sort taxes related to intellegence assets. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 26th, 2015 at 12:04pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 25th, 2015 at 11:51pm:
You've got no idea about who made that vague claim????? But you'll use it in anyway lol? That's not going to help us Stratos. ::) |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Lisa Jones on Nov 26th, 2015 at 12:08pm Stratos wrote on Nov 26th, 2015 at 7:44am:
Ok soooo..... 1. You don't know who said what. But you'll use that as a basis for arguing lol. 2. You're confusing reprinted editions with revised editions. Hmmmmm. :-/ |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by bogarde73 on Nov 26th, 2015 at 12:16pm Phemanderac wrote on Nov 26th, 2015 at 8:31am:
I've seen them get it wrong on quite a few occasions. They're not as reliable as the weather bureau. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Stratos on Nov 26th, 2015 at 12:18pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 26th, 2015 at 12:08pm:
Correct, nor as far as I'm aware, does anybody. Who wrote the book has been a question asked by scholars for hundreds of years, with no conclusive answers. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ex Dame Pansi on Nov 29th, 2015 at 7:01am |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by bogarde73 on Nov 29th, 2015 at 7:07am
Nor does making up phoney messages.
Religious teaching, if it were to concentrate on moral lessons, would be far preferable to political indoctrinations which are currently going on in Civics classes with respect to refugees, history & environment. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ex Dame Pansi on Nov 29th, 2015 at 8:54am bogarde73 wrote on Nov 29th, 2015 at 7:07am:
Surely we can have the moral lessons without the religious input. |
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by bogarde73 on Nov 29th, 2015 at 8:58am
And can we have the nonpolitical Civics classes?
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Title: Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Post by Ex Dame Pansi on Nov 29th, 2015 at 9:03am bogarde73 wrote on Nov 29th, 2015 at 8:58am:
Exactly, and if kids want to follow politics, they can study that in their spare time or concentrate on getting into uni at a later stage. |
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