http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-17/illawarra-steel-workers-vote-in-favour-of-new-enterprise-agreem/6949870


Quote:

Steel workers in the Illawarra have voted to ratify a new enterprise agreement and forfeit working conditions, to keep BlueScope's Port Kembla plant open. The agreement will trigger 500 job losses, a three-year pay freeze and the loss of various conditions for employees. More than 1000 workers voted through a secret ballot on Monday and Tuesday, ordered by the Fair Work Commission. "I'm glad overall that workers realised steel workers have to stick together," Australian Workers Union South Coast Branch Secretary Wayne Phillips said. "No one likes the agreement, it's not the best thing they've ever done, but in this particular time period, it's the only thing we could have done. "Whilst I don't think everyone should be clapping their hands I just think that we need to realise it's hard times, the industry is in a bit of a crisis, and members made the right decision," he said. Mr Phillips said he expects all 220 shop floor redundancies will be voluntary. "I understand we have about 15 people who are left without a role at this particular point in time, so I'm sure they can be accommodated, but no one out of this whole process have been forced out of a job," he said. "While it's sad to lose 200 members, it's much better when those positions go on a voluntary means not a forced means." There were rumblings of discontent over the agreement last week, but Mr Phillips said he's pleased the issues were able to be addressed prior to the vote. "This agreement has probably been the worst one I've had to negotiate with the conditions that we now face," he said. "I congratulate every single member who's put this hard time behind them, now let's move forward. "I really do want to thank the community and the Illawarra for sticking by steel workers and giving them support, it's been a fight from everybody in this region," Mr Phillips said. The Fair Work Commission will process the new agreement, and it's expected to be in place from Wednesday.

Workers taking a pay cut to allow business to be more competitive and save jobs.  What's the union world coming to?  Taking a dose of common sense I guess?

The same concept as eliminating penalty rates.  :-?

Swagman wrote on Nov 17^th, 2015 at 9:37pm:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-17/illawarra-steel-workers-vote-in-favour-of-new-enterprise-agreem/6949870 Quote: Steel workers in the Illawarra have voted to ratify a new enterprise agreement and forfeit working conditions, to keep BlueScope's Port Kembla plant open. The agreement will trigger 500 job losses, a three-year pay freeze and the loss of various conditions for employees. More than 1000 workers voted through a secret ballot on Monday and Tuesday, ordered by the Fair Work Commission. "I'm glad overall that workers realised steel workers have to stick together," Australian Workers Union South Coast Branch Secretary Wayne Phillips said. "No one likes the agreement, it's not the best thing they've ever done, but in this particular time period, it's the only thing we could have done. "Whilst I don't think everyone should be clapping their hands I just think that we need to realise it's hard times, the industry is in a bit of a crisis, and members made the right decision," he said. Mr Phillips said he expects all 220 shop floor redundancies will be voluntary. "I understand we have about 15 people who are left without a role at this particular point in time, so I'm sure they can be accommodated, but no one out of this whole process have been forced out of a job," he said. "While it's sad to lose 200 members, it's much better when those positions go on a voluntary means not a forced means." There were rumblings of discontent over the agreement last week, but Mr Phillips said he's pleased the issues were able to be addressed prior to the vote. "This agreement has probably been the worst one I've had to negotiate with the conditions that we now face," he said. "I congratulate every single member who's put this hard time behind them, now let's move forward. "I really do want to thank the community and the Illawarra for sticking by steel workers and giving them support, it's been a fight from everybody in this region," Mr Phillips said. The Fair Work Commission will process the new agreement, and it's expected to be in place from Wednesday. Workers taking a pay cut to allow business to be more competitive and save jobs.  What's the union world coming to?  Taking a dose of common sense I guess? The same concept as eliminating penalty rates.  :-?

Exactly Swag why cant we all work for less and accept that there should be no compensation for working unsociable hours I blame UNION THUGS!!

It's not compensation but supply and demand.  Market forces.

The company must react to market forces or it goes broke.  If it goes broke everyone loses their job.

Friggin common sense.  Something completely lacking in the Union movement for decades.

Every time I have seen this done in the past it has backfired on the workers, the process of trying to stay alive the employers have run the company down so far that any possibility of them paying out their employees when it eventually falls over is gone. The employers take the pay cut and in the end finish up with nothing.

Employees taking cuts to pay and conditions does not solve a companies problems when management has run the ship aground. Mostly what happens is that the fundamental business problems are still present. Wages and conditions are never the real problem.

This is a re hash of the same story posted several times now.

Swagman wrote on Nov 17^th, 2015 at 9:53pm:

It's not compensation but supply and demand.  Market forces. The company must react to market forces or it goes broke.  If it goes broke everyone loses their job. Friggin common sense.  Something completely lacking in the Union movement for decades.

I thought it was the job of 'management' to keep a weather eye on market forces and plan in advance, rather than the time-honoured stress management approach of reacting to every movement in The Force, and blaming the workers.

Are the management taking a pay cut?

"Everyone loses their jobs"....

That's a bit over the top as far as being unrealistic.

Just how long do you think that situation would stand with NO ONE in a job?

Employers actually need to pay for the services provided by workers at a fair and reasonable rate, otherwise, the employer won't have a market for their goods...

Dnarever wrote on Nov 17^th, 2015 at 10:32pm:

Every time I have seen this done in the past it has backfired on the workers, the process of trying to stay alive the employers have run the company down so far that any possibility of them paying out their employees when it eventually falls over is gone. The employers take the pay cut and in the end finish up with nothing. Employees taking cuts to pay and conditions does not solve a companies problems when management has run the ship aground. Mostly what happens is that the fundamental business problems are still present. Wages and conditions are never the real problem. This is a re hash of the same story posted several times now.

I vividly remember a time when my Dad was working for a company struggling to stay afloat. His boss re-mortgaged his family home to keep the business going and his employees (including my Dad) in their jobs. Two years later he had no choice but to close down the business. Mum and Dad moved in here with me and my wife and kids and I gave him a job working for me and they stayed with us here for two years until Dad got a new job back home. Dad's old boss managed to pay out everyone who worked for him with their full entitlement, leaving him with literally nothing more than a caravan for his family of four living in a caravan park. I think he's renting now, but the events of the last few years of that business ruined him financially. You go on and on about employees, but you forget that in SME's, it's the owners of the business shouldering all of the risk and who have a huge financial burden hanging around their neck.

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 17^th, 2015 at 10:37pm:

Swagman wrote on Nov 17th, 2015 at 9:53pm: It's not compensation but supply and demand.  Market forces. The company must react to market forces or it goes broke.  If it goes broke everyone loses their job. Friggin common sense.  Something completely lacking in the Union movement for decades. I thought it was the job of 'management' to keep a weather eye on market forces and plan in advance, rather than the time-honoured stress management approach of reacting to every movement in The Force, and blaming the workers. Are the management taking a pay cut?

The company I was with during the GFC immediately froze wages and cut back where they could. They done this so well that they awarded themselves generous bonuses.

The need to take strong action was obvious and essential according to managements view however the company profit was sitting at about $50M over the previous few years and actually improved showing that the truth was substantially different from what management was saying.

we could still have a viable car industry here in Australia if it weren't for the greedy Unions, Workers and Directors...

but no matter... while we sit around here whinging about who's to blame other countries will just laugh at us and gear up their own car and manufacturing industries..

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 5:42am:

we could still have a viable car industry here in Australia if it weren't for the greedy Unions, Workers and Directors... but no matter... while we sit around here whinging about who's to blame other countries will just laugh at us and gear up their own car and manufacturing industries..

we could still have a viable car industry here in Australia if it weren't for The treasurer of the time Joe Hockey telling them to get out.

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 5:42am:

we could still have a viable car industry here in Australia if it weren't for the greedy Unions, Workers and Directors... but no matter... while we sit around here whinging about who's to blame other countries will just laugh at us and gear up their own car and manufacturing industries..

Well, that's just rubbish...

We would still have a car industry if the manufacturers of cars in Australia actually paid attention to the market instead of relying on tax funded handouts to keep afloat.

Phemanderac wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 5:48am:

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 5:42am: we could still have a viable car industry here in Australia if it weren't for the greedy Unions, Workers and Directors... but no matter... while we sit around here whinging about who's to blame other countries will just laugh at us and gear up their own car and manufacturing industries.. Well, that's just rubbish... We would still have a car industry if the manufacturers of cars in Australia actually paid attention to the market instead of relying on tax funded handouts to keep afloat.

Yes but why should they when they can go anywhere else in the world and get the hand outs in exchange for the massive employment boost they provide.

It is the reverse we see of the liberals on wages and industrial policy, if you want to compete in a world market you have to be able to match your competitors.

As you point out though it was never about wages and conditions it was about government support and concessions there is nothing that employees could have done to save the car manufacturers.

Australian employees joining a race to third world wages and conditions is not going to solve anything.

Unions are supposed to represent people and they collected will. 

So Swag (and other libs) happy that workers are paid less.  Not surprised.

Dnarever wrote on Nov 17^th, 2015 at 10:32pm:

Every time I have seen this done in the past it has backfired on the workers, the process of trying to stay alive the employers have run the company down so far that any possibility of them paying out their employees when it eventually falls over is gone. The employers take the pay cut and in the end finish up with nothing. Employees taking cuts to pay and conditions does not solve a companies problems when management has run the ship aground. Mostly what happens is that the fundamental business problems are still present. Wages and conditions are never the real problem. This is a re hash of the same story posted several times now.

steelworks run 24/7 they never shut down... to keep it firing they need work .. they need orders...you cannot run a steelworks with half staff..... I think its fantastic that the MEN themselves have done this to help each other..keep their jobs...who knows it could all turn around down the track..if the fires go out.. they would never be started up again....the whole town of Wollongong would die..

well done steelworkers..

stunspore wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 6:52am:

Unions are supposed to represent people and they collected will.  So Swag (and other libs) happy that workers are paid less.  Not surprised.

you dont get it do you????.. its about keeping the steelworks... working...when things improve then they negotiate again...in the mean time give a bit of credit to the men.

Good on them.
the employer-employee relationship should be like a good marriage.
when tough times arrive, everyone tightens their belt.
during good times, everyone shares in the spoils.
as the people ARE the business, any right minded employer would know this and would have built up enough "capital" in the relationship "bank account" that during tough times the worker would be willing to see it as a good thing, not a bad thing

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 5:30am:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 17th, 2015 at 10:32pm: Every time I have seen this done in the past it has backfired on the workers, the process of trying to stay alive the employers have run the company down so far that any possibility of them paying out their employees when it eventually falls over is gone. The employers take the pay cut and in the end finish up with nothing. Employees taking cuts to pay and conditions does not solve a companies problems when management has run the ship aground. Mostly what happens is that the fundamental business problems are still present. Wages and conditions are never the real problem. This is a re hash of the same story posted several times now. I vividly remember a time when my Dad was working for a company struggling to stay afloat. His boss re-mortgaged his family home to keep the business going and his employees (including my Dad) in their jobs. Two years later he had no choice but to close down the business. Mum and Dad moved in here with me and my wife and kids and I gave him a job working for me and they stayed with us here for two years until Dad got a new job back home. Dad's old boss managed to pay out everyone who worked for him with their full entitlement, leaving him with literally nothing more than a caravan for his family of four living in a caravan park. I think he's renting now, but the events of the last few years of that business ruined him financially. You go on and on about employees, but you forget that in SME's, it's the owners of the business shouldering all of the risk and who have a huge financial burden hanging around their neck.

There are some great people in business but unfortunately not enough particularly in the more corporate areas. However I think in this example the writing was on the wall and everyone would have been better off had the owner originally closed down without the second mortgage, looks like another case where the business fundamentals were wrong and throwing more money at it only prolonged the agony. Same as taking pay cuts if the fundamental problems are not solved it is only a stop gap measure and it is never going to be the solution in itself.

The problem is almost always the business and only very rarely the employees or their pay and conditions.

We need to keep the carmakers going and the govt needs to spend on infrastructure to get the economy going again, that is how you save the steelworks.

Libs love selling Australian jobs to China.

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 5:30am:

I vividly remember a time when my Dad was working for a company struggling to stay afloat. His boss re-mortgaged his family home to keep the business going and his employees (including my Dad) in their jobs. Two years later he had no choice but to close down the business. Mum and Dad moved in here with me and my wife and kids and I gave him a job working for me and they stayed with us here for two years until Dad got a new job back home. Dad's old boss managed to pay out everyone who worked for him with their full entitlement, leaving him with literally nothing more than a caravan for his family of four living in a caravan park. I think he's renting now, but the events of the last few years of that business ruined him financially. You go on and on about employees, but you forget that in SME's, it's the owners of the business shouldering all of the risk and who have a huge financial burden hanging around their neck.

Of course it's the owners that take the risk. It's also the owners who make all the decisions and take all the reward. If you want someone to work for you, you must pay them fairly.

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 7:29am:

We need to keep the carmakers going and the govt needs to spend on infrastructure to get the economy going again, that is how you save the steelworks. Libs love selling Australian jobs to China.

Apparently the govt. is in talks with someone who wants to take over one of the existing car making plants and start a new Aussie made car. Lets hope that with Abbott and Hockey gone the govt. can be more reasonable.

aquascoot wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 7:26am:

Good on them. the employer-employee relationship should be like a good marriage. when tough times arrive, everyone tightens their belt. during good times, everyone shares in the spoils. as the people ARE the business, any right minded employer would know this and would have built up enough "capital" in the relationship "bank account" that during tough times the worker would be willing to see it as a good thing, not a bad thing

don't forgot to mention that when things go bad and it finally shuts down, the employees get told to bugger off, while upper management gets it's million dollar bonuses. :D :D :D

John Smith wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 7:34am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 7:29am: We need to keep the carmakers going and the govt needs to spend on infrastructure to get the economy going again, that is how you save the steelworks. Libs love selling Australian jobs to China. Apparently the govt. is in talks with someone who wants to take over one of the existing car making plants and start a new Aussie made car. Lets hope that with Abbott and Hockey gone the govt. can be more reasonable.

With the Aussie dollar low there is lots of scope for exports of cars. Probably, if the Holden works are up for sale the new owner would close the SA operation and rationalise operations in Broadmeadows. SA adds something like $400 to the cost of each car.

But it is markets, demand, Bluescope needs, without it the employees sacrificing salary are wasting their time. (Assuming no fundamental problems in the Bluescope management and steelworks etc.)

With the 48mm diameter copper coax cables in the HFC areas Bluescope or Onesteel can make money building the super strong power poles needed to carry the humungous weight of those wrist–thick, ugly as sin cables  ;D

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 7:29am:

We need to keep the carmakers going and the govt needs to spend on infrastructure to get the economy going again, that is how you save the steelworks. Libs love selling Australian jobs to China.

I Thought it was well established that "picking winners" was bad policy.

what we need to do is to exploit our natural advantages

clean environment
tourism
banking and finance
clean food production.

every problem presents an opportunity.

say we look at the paris problem.
this is going to make aussies (indeed the world)less likely to go to europe.
we should be promoting ourselves as a SAFE destination.

lets look at the chinese decision to allow unlimited imports of racehorses.

hong kong and singapore alone take 500 million worth of thoroughbreds every year.
thats pure profit , turning grass into dollars.
why build a stinky polluting car factory (that runs at a loss) when we can have rolling green fields that run at a profit.

The chinese won our second biggest race this year (the caulfield cup).
Put on the telly and you will see the chinese racing club colours (yellow with a red dragon ) in many races.

Our top 4 colts from last season were each syndicated internationally for more than 30 million each.

lets do what we do best.

i can see a huge market for camel, goats, for croc safari's for the north.

even the greens would rather we rid our arid lands of 2 million camels then build a car manufacturing plant (actually they probably wouldnt, they are not real big on logic)

Christ, you never read other peoples’ posts properly do you, so sure you are the crap from the self help books you read are the answer.

Investment in infrastructure, productive infrastructure will help many businesses survive and prosper and lift the economy out of recession. Nothing at all to do with picking winners, Walter Mitty.

Swagman wrote on Nov 17^th, 2015 at 9:37pm:

Workers taking a pay cut to allow business to be more competitive and save jobs.  What's the union world coming to?  Taking a dose of common sense I guess? The same concept as eliminating penalty rates.  :-?

A course of action for a specific company in a particular industry in no way means it's the ideal position for all or even most workers to take. There is also no assurance that it will save jobs in the long term if the company fortunes don't improve.

There is little evidence that penalty rates are costing a significant number of jobs, simply because a business is doing badly and the employees are willing take a hit to see if it can survive is in no way indicative that penalty rates a a bad thing.

Swag is a one trick pony.

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 7:56am:

Christ, you never read other peoples’ posts properly do you, so sure you are the crap from the self help books you read are the answer. Investment in infrastructure, productive infrastructure will help many businesses survive and prosper and lift the economy out of recession. Nothing at all to do with picking winners, Walter Mitty.

Oprah is in town in a fortnight.
$200 a ticket to hear the life story of a woman who came from adversity, child molestation, pregnant at 14.
Who's coming to hear her story of self help ?? ;) ;)

You will, I suppose. A fool and his money and all that. . .

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 7:39am:

With the Aussie dollar low there is lots of scope for exports of cars. Probably, if the Holden works are up for sale the new owner would close the SA operation and rationalise operations in Broadmeadows. SA adds something like $400 to the cost of each car.

I know Tesla was in talks with govt. about opening an ASIA Hub in Canberra to run all their admin for this part of the world a few months ago.  I'm wondering if it could be them looking to also buy the plant and build in Australia?

Kytro wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 7:58am:

Swagman wrote on Nov 17th, 2015 at 9:37pm: Workers taking a pay cut to allow business to be more competitive and save jobs.  What's the union world coming to?  Taking a dose of common sense I guess? The same concept as eliminating penalty rates.  :-? A course of action for a specific company in a particular industry in no way means it's the ideal position for all or even most workers to take. There is also no assurance that it will save jobs in the long term if the company fortunes don't improve. There is little evidence that penalty rates are costing a significant number of jobs, simply because a business is doing badly and the employees are willing take a hit to see if it can survive is in no way indicative that penalty rates a a bad thing.

one of the great mistakes is to think that all workers are the same.
some workers are 2 , 3 , 4 x as productive as other workers.
the other great myth is that you can train workers to be great.
great workers are usually found, not trained.
you find them great.
if youre spending a lot of time training someone, you probably found the wrong person .

as an employer, i cant understand, this fixed wage , over regulated system.

someone might be worth $2000 a week to the business, someone might be worth $200 a week to the business.

could you imagine the cowboys being told all players get 200 k a year.
JT is clearly worth 800 k,
a rookie might be worth 60 k.

common sense tells us that this is just how a free enterprise should operate.
it does my head in that everyone thinks a fixed rate is good for anybody.
small business people start small businesses for this exact reason.
to break out of this scrub, chode, durrrrrrrr mind set

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 7:59am:

Swag is a one trick pony.

Scoot has at least 3 pony's but no tricks.

Dnarever wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 8:11am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 7:59am: Swag is a one trick pony. Scoot has at least 3 pony's but no tricks.

Scoots ponies  :D :D :D :D

http://www.globalmensgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Donkeys-3-donkeys.jpg

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 7:29am:

We need to keep the carmakers going and the govt needs to spend on infrastructure to get the economy going again, that is how you save the steelworks. Libs love selling Australian jobs to China.

no dear that was gillard CARBON TAX we were not going to get.. she sent our steel making  off shore...and then systematically closing the mines one after the other...or are you still turning that blind eye you have to anything your mob did??

Dnarever wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 8:11am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 7:59am: Swag is a one trick pony. Scoot has at least 3 pony's but no tricks.

i will post you a video when i work out how !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ4vks6xQAc

cods wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 7:21am:

stunspore wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 6:52am: Unions are supposed to represent people and they collected will.  So Swag (and other libs) happy that workers are paid less.  Not surprised. you dont get it do you????.. its about keeping the steelworks... working...when things improve then they negotiate again...in the mean time give a bit of credit to the men.

Exactly Cods.  Stun has been 'stunned' by his beloved unions using a bit of nouse for a (vary rare) change.... ;D

Still remains to be seen if Bluescope will survive. That depends on demand for steel. Not looking good.

aquascoot wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 8:45am:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ4vks6xQAc

yep that is nice.

Dnarever wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 9:09am:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 8:45am: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ4vks6xQAc yep that is nice.

I know monk is a sceptic, but buying a farm and teaching myself to teach horses has taught me lessons that are very applicable to the workplace.

be too soft and both(horses and workers) dont see you as giving them something, they just feel entitled.
be too firm and you just causing anxiety which is dangerous
reward the tiniest, tiniest improvement.
always be confident, to be otherwise is dangerous.
you have to have total focus, a moments mindless teaching can lead to big set backs.
if you ask for something, ask in the lightest possible way, but be willing to turn up the heat to absolute maximum until you get the result,
if you ask and dont follow through , you are making the problem much worse and you will be creating a stubborn resistance.
the more training you put into them, the more valuable they become
always reward the valuable horses first, they notice these things

i'm going to miss Oprah but for 200 dollars i would consider it value at twice the price

The reason steel making "went offshore" (no it didn't) was that China invested massively in tertiary industry, and with a far cheaper workforce to exploit, was able to create billionaires out of the ruling clique, while generating for itself a facsimile of progress and the reality of escalating social problems, same as the West.

Steel making never 'went offshore' - it's still here - but the Chinese have glutted the market with no appreciable decline in price TO THE END USER, and with no protections such as cheaper cost to the middle man (a de facto tariff barrier in THEIR favour), local industry cannot compete.

People here and elsewhere need to start thinking about what actually constitutes a Tariff Barrier and/or a Tariff Gap, and act accordingly.

If I can sell Aquascoot horse manure cheaper than Kat can, because I use local orphan kids to muck out the stables etc and pay them a pittance, while Kat employs local men and women at full rate - that is a Tariff Gap in my favour.  It is also theft on my part.... and I would be prosecuted.

Why do we allow this at an international level?

Phemanderac wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 5:16am:

"Everyone loses their jobs".... That's a bit over the top as far as being unrealistic. Just how long do you think that situation would stand with NO ONE in a job? Employers actually need to pay for the services provided by workers at a fair and reasonable rate, otherwise, the employer won't have a market for their goods...

You might want to rethink that statement as it is quite silly.  If you are talking about employers in GENERAL you have a basic point, but in the context of a steel worker, no relationship at all.

We have cut tariffs far too much, more than our neighbors and trading partners, with the inevitable result.

Back in the 60s & 70s there were arguments about economic rationalism and that our economy was too protected, too cosseted and backward.

But the solution, lower tariffs, just saw our industries decamp to China. Maybe we should look to Holland and Germany to see how they still have strong manufacturing sectors and an advanced economy while we are sliding down to become the poor white trash of Asia.

Phemanderac wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 5:48am:

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 5:42am: we could still have a viable car industry here in Australia if it weren't for the greedy Unions, Workers and Directors... but no matter... while we sit around here whinging about who's to blame other countries will just laugh at us and gear up their own car and manufacturing industries.. Well, that's just rubbish... We would still have a car industry if the manufacturers of cars in Australia actually paid attention to the market instead of relying on tax funded handouts to keep afloat.

Bit simplistic isn't it? After all, car manufacturing has retreated GLOBALLY and many countries are in our situation of no longer having this industry on shore.  Is it simply possible that it is such a competitive and demanding industry that only a few manufacturers can stay afloat and they have to choose the most economical locations?

If Australians really wanted a local car industry they would have bought local cars - but they didn't.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 9:47am:

If Australians really wanted a local car industry they would have bought local cars - but they didn't.

That's because they were crap

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 9:32am:

The reason steel making "went offshore" (no it didn't) was that China invested massively in tertiary industry, and with a far cheaper workforce to exploit, was able to create billionaires out of the ruling clique, while generating for itself a facsimile of progress and the reality of escalating social problems, same as the West. Steel making never 'went offshore' - it's still here - but the Chinese have glutted the market with no appreciable decline in price TO THE END USER, and with no protections such as cheaper cost to the middle man (a de facto tariff barrier in THEIR favour), local industry cannot compete. People here and elsewhere need to start thinking about what actually constitutes a Tariff Barrier and/or a Tariff Gap, and act accordingly. If I can sell Aquascoot horse manure cheaper than Kat can, because I use local orphan kids to muck out the stables etc and pay them a pittance, while Kat employs local men and women at full rate - that is a Tariff Gap in my favour.  It is also theft on my part.... and I would be prosecuted. Why do we allow this at an international level?

Thats the old catch 22 grapples.

after the factory fire in bangladesh, well meaning lefties ran a facebook campaign to make guess jeans shut the factory and stop exploiting lowly paid workers.

This guess duly did, as they werent going to go against western social media.

a follow up showed the workers had now gone from low standard or living to abject poverty and were begging for guess to come back.

People talk about 3rd world wages as exploitation, but that is not how the third world see them .
i knew the australian guy who built the pool for the chinese olympics.
he had his workers in a compound surrounded by fences....not because they were slave labour, but because other workers were trying to get IN to get in on these fantastic wages ($3 an hour back then ).

and guess what, western business has been the absolute best thing to ever hit the thrid world.
western business has dragged more people out of poverty then the the UN could ever hope to.

Free enterprise is the way forward.

It isnt going to be easy for australia but it is now impossible to ask that our lives were made easier. It is only possible to ask that we were made better

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 9:45am:

We have cut tariffs far too much, more than our neighbors and trading partners, with the inevitable result. Back in the 60s & 70s there were arguments about economic rationalism and that our economy was too protected, too cosseted and backward. But the solution, lower tariffs, just saw our industries decamp to China. Maybe we should look to Holland and Germany to see how they still have strong manufacturing sectors and an advanced economy while we are sliding down to become the poor white trash of Asia.

Courtesy of the Union movement and its political arm the ALP....

Swagman wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 10:20am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 9:45am: We have cut tariffs far too much, more than our neighbors and trading partners, with the inevitable result. Back in the 60s & 70s there were arguments about economic rationalism and that our economy was too protected, too cosseted and backward. But the solution, lower tariffs, just saw our industries decamp to China. Maybe we should look to Holland and Germany to see how they still have strong manufacturing sectors and an advanced economy while we are sliding down to become the poor white trash of Asia. Courtesy of the Union movement and its political arm the ALP....

Unions are strong in Germany and Holland. I guess they don’t have neocon govts and that may be the real answer.

IF we were rolling out a real NBN I think we would already be much better off. This MTM rubbish is a waste of time and money. What is it with Lib govts that they don’t want decent communications in our wide brown land?

John Smith wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 7:34am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 7:29am: We need to keep the carmakers going and the govt needs to spend on infrastructure to get the economy going again, that is how you save the steelworks. Libs love selling Australian jobs to China. Apparently the govt. is in talks with someone who wants to take over one of the existing car making plants and start a new Aussie made car. Lets hope that with Abbott and Hockey gone the govt. can be more reasonable.

Would you care to support that with even a semi-unofficial hint from someone in the know?

Swagman wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 10:20am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 9:45am: We have cut tariffs far too much, more than our neighbors and trading partners, with the inevitable result. Back in the 60s & 70s there were arguments about economic rationalism and that our economy was too protected, too cosseted and backward. But the solution, lower tariffs, just saw our industries decamp to China. Maybe we should look to Holland and Germany to see how they still have strong manufacturing sectors and an advanced economy while we are sliding down to become the poor white trash of Asia. Courtesy of the Union movement and its political arm the ALP....

Yes Swaggy, you keep telling us about how unions have wrecked everything. If they were so greedy as you suggest and so willful why are wages falling behind productivity ? You will find the problem elsewhere.

https://mattcowgill.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/decoupling.png

Except for the mid seventies to the mid eighties when inflation was way out of the park, wages and labour productivity were in harmony as one would expect. So what happened from about 2000 onwards. We've been through this before. Look where capital productivity is.

http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2013/03/24/1226604/547823-130325-b-uren.jpg

Aussie industry is suffering as a result. Blaming unions and bosses depending on your political persuasion is foolhardy and clouds the real issue. What you will actually find is that each increment of labour productivity is requiring more and more capital input as time goes on.

Just for Swaggie and Mechanic. Declining output per unit of capital has sfa to do with union claims. In fact, wages have declined relative to labour productivity gains. You need to rethink that one.

Just for the rest. Since labour productivity has grown unhindered there is no case to blame those lousy bosses. Without capital injection there would be no labour productivity gains. So far, despite ever declining capital returns, industry has been prepared to grow labour productivity. It's just getting harder and harder until something eventually bursts.

With such declining returns on capital the likes of the car manufactures and steel works will continue to struggle. I hear nothing in government policy that addresses this extremely important issue.

Now is a good time to invest in productivity enhancing equipment and in public infrastructure: interest rates at historically lows.

Reading a good article - Killing The Competition... How the new monopolies are destroying open markets, by Barry C Lynn - Harpers magazine 2012.

I'll try to dredge it up online for yez.......

Ah - here it is:-

http://harpers.org/archive/2012/02/killing-the-competition/

Might interest the serious readers and thinkers here........ just saying.

aquascoot wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 10:20am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 9:32am: The reason steel making "went offshore" (no it didn't) was that China invested massively in tertiary industry, and with a far cheaper workforce to exploit, was able to create billionaires out of the ruling clique, while generating for itself a facsimile of progress and the reality of escalating social problems, same as the West. Steel making never 'went offshore' - it's still here - but the Chinese have glutted the market with no appreciable decline in price TO THE END USER, and with no protections such as cheaper cost to the middle man (a de facto tariff barrier in THEIR favour), local industry cannot compete. People here and elsewhere need to start thinking about what actually constitutes a Tariff Barrier and/or a Tariff Gap, and act accordingly. If I can sell Aquascoot horse manure cheaper than Kat can, because I use local orphan kids to muck out the stables etc and pay them a pittance, while Kat employs local men and women at full rate - that is a Tariff Gap in my favour.  It is also theft on my part.... and I would be prosecuted. Why do we allow this at an international level? Thats the old catch 22 grapples. after the factory fire in bangladesh, well meaning lefties ran a facebook campaign to make guess jeans shut the factory and stop exploiting lowly paid workers. This guess duly did, as they werent going to go against western social media. a follow up showed the workers had now gone from low standard or living to abject poverty and were begging for guess to come back. People talk about 3rd world wages as exploitation, but that is not how the third world see them . i knew the australian guy who built the pool for the chinese olympics. he had his workers in a compound surrounded by fences....not because they were slave labour, but because other workers were trying to get IN to get in on these fantastic wages ($3 an hour back then ). and guess what, western business has been the absolute best thing to ever hit the thrid world. western business has dragged more people out of poverty then the the UN could ever hope to. Free enterprise is the way forward. It isnt going to be easy for australia but it is now impossible to ask that our lives were made easier. It is only possible to ask that we were made better

Yes - it is a dreadful situation for the genuinely poor of the world - between the rock and the hard place.  Western business has helped, but social structures are standing in the way of genuine improvement for the many.

This has some relevance, I think:-

http://harpers.org/archive/2012/02/killing-the-competition/

Discusses markets and market control, and how unconstrained capitalism can exploit labour - long but a good read.

(dang - I'm repeating myself)....

I'm also greatly interested in people considering Tariff Gaps/Tariff Barriers.... one is a blockade, the other a yawning gap.... and not just the purported evils of Tariff Barriers in isolation.... two sides of the same coin.......

A serious issue.... I'm working my way through the ideas etc in that Harper's article...

aquascoot wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 8:11am:

Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 7:58am: Swagman wrote on Nov 17th, 2015 at 9:37pm: Workers taking a pay cut to allow business to be more competitive and save jobs.  What's the union world coming to?  Taking a dose of common sense I guess? The same concept as eliminating penalty rates.  :-? A course of action for a specific company in a particular industry in no way means it's the ideal position for all or even most workers to take. There is also no assurance that it will save jobs in the long term if the company fortunes don't improve. There is little evidence that penalty rates are costing a significant number of jobs, simply because a business is doing badly and the employees are willing take a hit to see if it can survive is in no way indicative that penalty rates a a bad thing. one of the great mistakes is to think that all workers are the same. some workers are 2 , 3 , 4 x as productive as other workers. the other great myth is that you can train workers to be great. great workers are usually found, not trained. you find them great. if youre spending a lot of time training someone, you probably found the wrong person . as an employer, i cant understand, this fixed wage , over regulated system. someone might be worth $2000 a week to the business, someone might be worth $200 a week to the business. could you imagine the cowboys being told all players get 200 k a year. JT is clearly worth 800 k, a rookie might be worth 60 k. common sense tells us that this is just how a free enterprise should operate. it does my head in that everyone thinks a fixed rate is good for anybody. small business people start small businesses for this exact reason. to break out of this scrub, chode, durrrrrrrr mind set

Even in this regulated system, employers cheat employees. Without regulation it would be even worse. When there is an oversupply of low-skilled workers it would drive the price down significantly bellow the minimum wage.

In most industries there are levels where pay isn't set, it is usually set for low skilled jobs where variation in ability has a more limited impact.

Basically, regulation exists because free enterprise can't be trusted.

Kytro wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 1:12pm:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 8:11am: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 7:58am: Swagman wrote on Nov 17th, 2015 at 9:37pm: Workers taking a pay cut to allow business to be more competitive and save jobs.  What's the union world coming to?  Taking a dose of common sense I guess? The same concept as eliminating penalty rates.  :-? A course of action for a specific company in a particular industry in no way means it's the ideal position for all or even most workers to take. There is also no assurance that it will save jobs in the long term if the company fortunes don't improve. There is little evidence that penalty rates are costing a significant number of jobs, simply because a business is doing badly and the employees are willing take a hit to see if it can survive is in no way indicative that penalty rates a a bad thing. one of the great mistakes is to think that all workers are the same. some workers are 2 , 3 , 4 x as productive as other workers. the other great myth is that you can train workers to be great. great workers are usually found, not trained. you find them great. if youre spending a lot of time training someone, you probably found the wrong person . as an employer, i cant understand, this fixed wage , over regulated system. someone might be worth $2000 a week to the business, someone might be worth $200 a week to the business. could you imagine the cowboys being told all players get 200 k a year. JT is clearly worth 800 k, a rookie might be worth 60 k. common sense tells us that this is just how a free enterprise should operate. it does my head in that everyone thinks a fixed rate is good for anybody. small business people start small businesses for this exact reason. to break out of this scrub, chode, durrrrrrrr mind set Even in this regulated system, employers cheat employees. Without regulation it would be even worse. When there is an oversupply of low-skilled workers it would drive the price down significantly bellow the minimum wage. In most industries there are levels where pay isn't set, it is usually set for low skilled jobs where variation in ability has a more limited impact. Basically, regulation exists because free enterprise can't be trusted.

Kyrto when i look at those guys who are losing their jobs after years of work i see people who are scared and look tired.

They basicly have been sold a lemon.

Its actually a very similar look to what i see when i look at a guy who is getting divorced after a long marriage.

society sells these guys a path which is just not realistic.

if you are a good worker or a good husband, thats simply no gaurantee that life is going to work out well for you.  its a myth of the group think of society.

every day in the workplace, every day in your relationships, you gotta bring your A game, you got to be growing, you got to be adapting, you got to be improving.

its sad when they say  "ive worked here for 30 years (doing the same job) and how am i going to get another job......
i was a good husband for 30 years and how am  i going to get another wife.


In all things, work or relationships, DO NOT ASK what am i getting out of this (be that pay or sex and meals and compnaionship)  ask WHAT AM I BECOMING.

most people are beaten down, you have to keep growing, you have to WORK HARDER ON YOURSELF THEN YOU WOULD EVER WORK ON YOUR JOB.

this story is going to become worse and worse and worse as the security (in work and relationships) get worse.

You know your average small business person is always scared and always tired but he learns to live with that, embrace it and uses it as a spur to personal improvement.
If you think you can just learn a job at a steel company and then go into Durrrrrrr mode for 40 years, i'm sorry, society has sold you a pup.
Welcome to the real world, now pick yourself up and learn the lessons you should have been learning every moment of every day for the last 40 years

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 11:58am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 7:34am: Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 7:29am: We need to keep the carmakers going and the govt needs to spend on infrastructure to get the economy going again, that is how you save the steelworks. Libs love selling Australian jobs to China. Apparently the govt. is in talks with someone who wants to take over one of the existing car making plants and start a new Aussie made car. Lets hope that with Abbott and Hockey gone the govt. can be more reasonable. Would you care to support that with even a semi-unofficial hint from someone in the know?

Christopher Pyne, Q&A last Monday. And if you think I'm going to look for a transcript for your benefit you might be waiting an awfully long time.

John Smith wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 1:43pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 11:58am: John Smith wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 7:34am: Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 7:29am: We need to keep the carmakers going and the govt needs to spend on infrastructure to get the economy going again, that is how you save the steelworks. Libs love selling Australian jobs to China. Apparently the govt. is in talks with someone who wants to take over one of the existing car making plants and start a new Aussie made car. Lets hope that with Abbott and Hockey gone the govt. can be more reasonable. Would you care to support that with even a semi-unofficial hint from someone in the know? Christopher Pyne, Q&A last Monday. And if you think I'm going to look for a transcript for your benefit you might be waiting an awfully long time.

You have to be kidding right  ? Not even Liberal supporters believe anything a Liberal politician is saying.

And last weeks QandA is on Iview.

It was Nick Xenophon who said it and mentioned that Pyne had a meeting with one of the interested groups.

Kytro wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 10:09am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 9:47am: If Australians really wanted a local car industry they would have bought local cars - but they didn't. That's because they were crap

Really?  It is a nice statement to make, but does it really stack up?  We made mostly large cars so the comparison needs to be other countries large cars. I've driven imported and locally made. The local product is very good and dollar-for-dollar usually better.  Some of our product was EXPORTED which is enough to make the point.

Kytro wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 1:12pm:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 8:11am: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 7:58am: Swagman wrote on Nov 17th, 2015 at 9:37pm: Workers taking a pay cut to allow business to be more competitive and save jobs.  What's the union world coming to?  Taking a dose of common sense I guess? The same concept as eliminating penalty rates.  :-? A course of action for a specific company in a particular industry in no way means it's the ideal position for all or even most workers to take. There is also no assurance that it will save jobs in the long term if the company fortunes don't improve. There is little evidence that penalty rates are costing a significant number of jobs, simply because a business is doing badly and the employees are willing take a hit to see if it can survive is in no way indicative that penalty rates a a bad thing. one of the great mistakes is to think that all workers are the same. some workers are 2 , 3 , 4 x as productive as other workers. the other great myth is that you can train workers to be great. great workers are usually found, not trained. you find them great. if youre spending a lot of time training someone, you probably found the wrong person . as an employer, i cant understand, this fixed wage , over regulated system. someone might be worth $2000 a week to the business, someone might be worth $200 a week to the business. could you imagine the cowboys being told all players get 200 k a year. JT is clearly worth 800 k, a rookie might be worth 60 k. common sense tells us that this is just how a free enterprise should operate. it does my head in that everyone thinks a fixed rate is good for anybody. small business people start small businesses for this exact reason. to break out of this scrub, chode, durrrrrrrr mind set Even in this regulated system, employers cheat employees. Without regulation it would be even worse. When there is an oversupply of low-skilled workers it would drive the price down significantly bellow the minimum wage. In most industries there are levels where pay isn't set, it is usually set for low skilled jobs where variation in ability has a more limited impact. Basically, regulation exists because free enterprise can't be trusted.

You dont think employees cheat employers?  These issues are ALWAYS two-sided.

Dnarever wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 1:48pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 1:43pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 11:58am: John Smith wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 7:34am: Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 7:29am: We need to keep the carmakers going and the govt needs to spend on infrastructure to get the economy going again, that is how you save the steelworks. Libs love selling Australian jobs to China. Apparently the govt. is in talks with someone who wants to take over one of the existing car making plants and start a new Aussie made car. Lets hope that with Abbott and Hockey gone the govt. can be more reasonable. Would you care to support that with even a semi-unofficial hint from someone in the know? Christopher Pyne, Q&A last Monday. And if you think I'm going to look for a transcript for your benefit you might be waiting an awfully long time. You have to be kidding right  ? Not even Liberal supporters believe anything a Liberal politician is saying. And last weeks QandA is on Iview. It was Nick Xenophon who said it and mentioned that Pyne had a meeting with one of the interested groups.

So in other words, JS lied.

No surprise there!

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:04pm:

Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 10:09am: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 9:47am: If Australians really wanted a local car industry they would have bought local cars - but they didn't. That's because they were crap Really?  It is a nice statement to make, but does it really stack up?  We made mostly large cars so the comparison needs to be other countries large cars. I've driven imported and locally made. The local product is very good and dollar-for-dollar usually better.  Some of our product was EXPORTED which is enough to make the point.

I never liked them, personally. They very ... basic compared to competition, and in many cases the finish was a bit meh. They didn't stand out.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:07pm:

You dont think employees cheat employers?  These issues are ALWAYS two-sided.

Not anywhere near the scale employers do.

aquascoot wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 1:41pm:

Kyrto when i look at those guys who are losing their jobs after years of work i see people who are scared and look tired. They basicly have been sold a lemon. Its actually a very similar look to what i see when i look at a guy who is getting divorced after a long marriage. society sells these guys a path which is just not realistic. if you are a good worker or a good husband, thats simply no gaurantee that life is going to work out well for you.  its a myth of the group think of society. every day in the workplace, every day in your relationships, you gotta bring your A game, you got to be growing, you got to be adapting, you got to be improving. its sad when they say  "ive worked here for 30 years (doing the same job) and how am i going to get another job...... i was a good husband for 30 years and how am  i going to get another wife. In all things, work or relationships, DO NOT ASK what am i getting out of this (be that pay or sex and meals and compnaionship)  ask WHAT AM I BECOMING. most people are beaten down, you have to keep growing, you have to WORK HARDER ON YOURSELF THEN YOU WOULD EVER WORK ON YOUR JOB. this story is going to become worse and worse and worse as the security (in work and relationships) get worse. You know your average small business person is always scared and always tired but he learns to live with that, embrace it and uses it as a spur to personal improvement. If you think you can just learn a job at a steel company and then go into Durrrrrrr mode for 40 years, i'm sorry, society has sold you a pup. Welcome to the real world, now pick yourself up and learn the lessons you should have been learning every moment of every day for the last 40 years

Effectively the days of doing the same job at the same place for life are mostly over.

Kytro wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:26pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:07pm: You dont think employees cheat employers?  These issues are ALWAYS two-sided. Not anywhere near the scale employers do.

So employees never take sickies? Never lazy, never late?  Never steal from employees?

Get a grip.

Are management getting a cut in pay and conditions as well?

Is the CEO declining his bonus?

Did the 'share-holders' elect to take a smaller dividend?

No?

Then fuggem - they deserve to fail.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:58pm:

Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:26pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:07pm: You dont think employees cheat employers?  These issues are ALWAYS two-sided. Not anywhere near the scale employers do. So employees never take sickies? Never lazy, never late?  Never steal from employees? Get a grip.

You seem to be attributing things to me I didn't say. At no point did I say or imply that employees don't rip-off employers, but employers have significantly more power in most jobs and are in a better position to rip-off without consequence.

Quote:

a three-year pay freeze and the loss of various conditions for employees.

the way I read the op its  a 3 year PAY FREEZE....and some conditions will go for now.....not a PAY CUT at all.. and instead of losing 500 job 220 job will go voluntarily......

the jobs have gone simple as that...its a very robotic world today....

but these guys are doing the right thing for these times...bravo..

Dnarever wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 1:48pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 1:43pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 11:58am: John Smith wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 7:34am: Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 7:29am: We need to keep the carmakers going and the govt needs to spend on infrastructure to get the economy going again, that is how you save the steelworks. Libs love selling Australian jobs to China. Apparently the govt. is in talks with someone who wants to take over one of the existing car making plants and start a new Aussie made car. Lets hope that with Abbott and Hockey gone the govt. can be more reasonable. Would you care to support that with even a semi-unofficial hint from someone in the know? Christopher Pyne, Q&A last Monday. And if you think I'm going to look for a transcript for your benefit you might be waiting an awfully long time. You have to be kidding right  ? Not even Liberal supporters believe anything a Liberal politician is saying. And last weeks QandA is on Iview. It was Nick Xenophon who said it and mentioned that Pyne had a meeting with one of the interested groups.

Yes and Pyne acknowledged it as being correct

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:08pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 1:48pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 1:43pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 11:58am: John Smith wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 7:34am: Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 7:29am: We need to keep the carmakers going and the govt needs to spend on infrastructure to get the economy going again, that is how you save the steelworks. Libs love selling Australian jobs to China. Apparently the govt. is in talks with someone who wants to take over one of the existing car making plants and start a new Aussie made car. Lets hope that with Abbott and Hockey gone the govt. can be more reasonable. Would you care to support that with even a semi-unofficial hint from someone in the know? Christopher Pyne, Q&A last Monday. And if you think I'm going to look for a transcript for your benefit you might be waiting an awfully long time. You have to be kidding right  ? Not even Liberal supporters believe anything a Liberal politician is saying. And last weeks QandA is on Iview. It was Nick Xenophon who said it and mentioned that Pyne had a meeting with one of the interested groups. So in other words, JS lied. No surprise there!

unlike you dopey, I don't just make things up .. i gave you Pynes name as the source (he confirmed to Xenophon that he was correct) and the show, I didn't give you a running transcript of exactly who said what.

Of the two of us only one is a liar, and I know it's not me.

Kytro wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:28pm:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 1:41pm: Kyrto when i look at those guys who are losing their jobs after years of work i see people who are scared and look tired. They basicly have been sold a lemon. Its actually a very similar look to what i see when i look at a guy who is getting divorced after a long marriage. society sells these guys a path which is just not realistic. if you are a good worker or a good husband, thats simply no gaurantee that life is going to work out well for you.  its a myth of the group think of society. every day in the workplace, every day in your relationships, you gotta bring your A game, you got to be growing, you got to be adapting, you got to be improving. its sad when they say  "ive worked here for 30 years (doing the same job) and how am i going to get another job...... i was a good husband for 30 years and how am  i going to get another wife. In all things, work or relationships, DO NOT ASK what am i getting out of this (be that pay or sex and meals and compnaionship)  ask WHAT AM I BECOMING. most people are beaten down, you have to keep growing, you have to WORK HARDER ON YOURSELF THEN YOU WOULD EVER WORK ON YOUR JOB. this story is going to become worse and worse and worse as the security (in work and relationships) get worse. You know your average small business person is always scared and always tired but he learns to live with that, embrace it and uses it as a spur to personal improvement. If you think you can just learn a job at a steel company and then go into Durrrrrrr mode for 40 years, i'm sorry, society has sold you a pup. Welcome to the real world, now pick yourself up and learn the lessons you should have been learning every moment of every day for the last 40 years Effectively the days of doing the same job at the same place for life are mostly over.

we are in furious agreement

Kat wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 5:13pm:

Are management getting a cut in pay and conditions as well? Is the CEO declining his bonus? Did the 'share-holders' elect to take a smaller dividend? No? Then fuggem - they deserve to fail.

To pay a dividend a profit must occur first. Highly unlikely that divvies will be distributed for a while yet but a look on the ASX site should tell.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:08pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 1:48pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 1:43pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 11:58am: John Smith wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 7:34am: Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 7:29am: We need to keep the carmakers going and the govt needs to spend on infrastructure to get the economy going again, that is how you save the steelworks. Libs love selling Australian jobs to China. Apparently the govt. is in talks with someone who wants to take over one of the existing car making plants and start a new Aussie made car. Lets hope that with Abbott and Hockey gone the govt. can be more reasonable. Would you care to support that with even a semi-unofficial hint from someone in the know? Christopher Pyne, Q&A last Monday. And if you think I'm going to look for a transcript for your benefit you might be waiting an awfully long time. You have to be kidding right  ? Not even Liberal supporters believe anything a Liberal politician is saying. And last weeks QandA is on Iview. It was Nick Xenophon who said it and mentioned that Pyne had a meeting with one of the interested groups. So in other words, JS lied. No surprise there!

No he was correct just got the wrong name. A simple mistake that made no difference to the point.

aquascoot wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 5:49pm:

Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:28pm: aquascoot wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 1:41pm: Kyrto when i look at those guys who are losing their jobs after years of work i see people who are scared and look tired. They basicly have been sold a lemon. Its actually a very similar look to what i see when i look at a guy who is getting divorced after a long marriage. society sells these guys a path which is just not realistic. if you are a good worker or a good husband, thats simply no gaurantee that life is going to work out well for you.  its a myth of the group think of society. every day in the workplace, every day in your relationships, you gotta bring your A game, you got to be growing, you got to be adapting, you got to be improving. its sad when they say  "ive worked here for 30 years (doing the same job) and how am i going to get another job...... i was a good husband for 30 years and how am  i going to get another wife. In all things, work or relationships, DO NOT ASK what am i getting out of this (be that pay or sex and meals and compnaionship)  ask WHAT AM I BECOMING. most people are beaten down, you have to keep growing, you have to WORK HARDER ON YOURSELF THEN YOU WOULD EVER WORK ON YOUR JOB. this story is going to become worse and worse and worse as the security (in work and relationships) get worse. You know your average small business person is always scared and always tired but he learns to live with that, embrace it and uses it as a spur to personal improvement. If you think you can just learn a job at a steel company and then go into Durrrrrrr mode for 40 years, i'm sorry, society has sold you a pup. Welcome to the real world, now pick yourself up and learn the lessons you should have been learning every moment of every day for the last 40 years Effectively the days of doing the same job at the same place for life are mostly over. we are in furious agreement

Yes it is a shame though.

Dnarever wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 8:32pm:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 5:49pm: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:28pm: aquascoot wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 1:41pm: Kyrto when i look at those guys who are losing their jobs after years of work i see people who are scared and look tired. They basicly have been sold a lemon. Its actually a very similar look to what i see when i look at a guy who is getting divorced after a long marriage. society sells these guys a path which is just not realistic. if you are a good worker or a good husband, thats simply no gaurantee that life is going to work out well for you.  its a myth of the group think of society. every day in the workplace, every day in your relationships, you gotta bring your A game, you got to be growing, you got to be adapting, you got to be improving. its sad when they say  "ive worked here for 30 years (doing the same job) and how am i going to get another job...... i was a good husband for 30 years and how am  i going to get another wife. In all things, work or relationships, DO NOT ASK what am i getting out of this (be that pay or sex and meals and compnaionship)  ask WHAT AM I BECOMING. most people are beaten down, you have to keep growing, you have to WORK HARDER ON YOURSELF THEN YOU WOULD EVER WORK ON YOUR JOB. this story is going to become worse and worse and worse as the security (in work and relationships) get worse. You know your average small business person is always scared and always tired but he learns to live with that, embrace it and uses it as a spur to personal improvement. If you think you can just learn a job at a steel company and then go into Durrrrrrr mode for 40 years, i'm sorry, society has sold you a pup. Welcome to the real world, now pick yourself up and learn the lessons you should have been learning every moment of every day for the last 40 years Effectively the days of doing the same job at the same place for life are mostly over. we are in furious agreement Yes it is a shame though.

yes and no,
like i said, the thing the small business person has always had to do is to be happy to live with ambiguity.
to learn to live with a degree of fear.

we all will need to do that now.

the modern worker is really a small business person working for "myself pty ltd"

he needs to have that mindset. he needs to market himself (positive psychology, good smile, firm handshake, well groomed, punctual) and he will need to improve himself (courses, studying, innovating, continuous education, learning IT).

so there is more work, indeed.

but the marriage analogy is valid.
you dont get married and just go....righto , set for life, put in my hours, get fat, couch time, chode mode, do as little as possible and try to get away from the partner...not if you want a good marriage.

same goes for a job...you will get more out of it if you improve yourself and you also make yourself indespensible and more likely to be kept on (ie you wont have to go thru as many painful relationship break ups/sackings)

Kytro wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 5:23pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:58pm: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:26pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:07pm: You dont think employees cheat employers?  These issues are ALWAYS two-sided. Not anywhere near the scale employers do. So employees never take sickies? Never lazy, never late?  Never steal from employees? Get a grip. You seem to be attributing things to me I didn't say. At no point did I say or imply that employees don't rip-off employers, but employers have significantly more power in most jobs and are in a better position to rip-off without consequence.

That is still a largely presumptive and unsupported statement. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. There are some bad ones of course, but they are largely ethical and well-behaved. Can you say the same about employees? The employee's ability to rip of the employer is everywhere while the reverse is largely not easy at all.

aquascoot wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 9:01pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 8:32pm: aquascoot wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 5:49pm: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:28pm: aquascoot wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 1:41pm: Kyrto when i look at those guys who are losing their jobs after years of work i see people who are scared and look tired. They basicly have been sold a lemon. Its actually a very similar look to what i see when i look at a guy who is getting divorced after a long marriage. society sells these guys a path which is just not realistic. if you are a good worker or a good husband, thats simply no gaurantee that life is going to work out well for you.  its a myth of the group think of society. every day in the workplace, every day in your relationships, you gotta bring your A game, you got to be growing, you got to be adapting, you got to be improving. its sad when they say  "ive worked here for 30 years (doing the same job) and how am i going to get another job...... i was a good husband for 30 years and how am  i going to get another wife. In all things, work or relationships, DO NOT ASK what am i getting out of this (be that pay or sex and meals and compnaionship)  ask WHAT AM I BECOMING. most people are beaten down, you have to keep growing, you have to WORK HARDER ON YOURSELF THEN YOU WOULD EVER WORK ON YOUR JOB. this story is going to become worse and worse and worse as the security (in work and relationships) get worse. You know your average small business person is always scared and always tired but he learns to live with that, embrace it and uses it as a spur to personal improvement. If you think you can just learn a job at a steel company and then go into Durrrrrrr mode for 40 years, i'm sorry, society has sold you a pup. Welcome to the real world, now pick yourself up and learn the lessons you should have been learning every moment of every day for the last 40 years Effectively the days of doing the same job at the same place for life are mostly over. we are in furious agreement Yes it is a shame though. yes and no, like i said, the thing the small business person has always had to do is to be happy to live with ambiguity. to learn to live with a degree of fear. we all will need to do that now. the modern worker is really a small business person working for "myself pty ltd" he needs to have that mindset. he needs to market himself (positive psychology, good smile, firm handshake, well groomed, punctual) and he will need to improve himself (courses, studying, innovating, continuous education, learning IT). so there is more work, indeed. but the marriage analogy is valid. you dont get married and just go....righto , set for life, put in my hours, get fat, couch time, chode mode, do as little as possible and try to get away from the partner...not if you want a good marriage. same goes for a job...you will get more out of it if you improve yourself and you also make yourself indespensible and more likely to be kept on (ie you wont have to go thru as many painful relationship break ups/sackings)

Don't like you analogy because it only translates into the real world theoretically and the realities are very different. We often come to odds because you primarily consider small business when I am thinking about a bigger corporate picture and we see the same issue with entirely different perspectives.

In my view that long term tenure was a huge advantage to all and in the situation today everyone loses. There is currently a real disadvantage to employee loyalty and zero loyalty from the employer side.

Note - this is where we transgress - when I say that I am thinking of a corporate situation and you would be thinking small business where some small vestiges of loyalty still exist, immediately you say I am wrong.

The corporate reality is that the employee who shows loyalty is going to be dumped by the employer at probably the most disadvantageous time for him / her and this will happen irrespective of his ability commitment or performance. While on the other side we have the employee who shows no loyalty will stay just long enough to leverage the training experience and knowledge he wants and them moving on before paying back any of the effort put in by the employer. These are our most successful employees and in high demand but they only serve to drive down productivity as they leave just as they actually start to become useful.

Unfortunately in the current world the most likely result of loyalty in employment is a kick in the guts mostly for no genuine reason.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:25am:

Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 5:23pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:58pm: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:26pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:07pm: You dont think employees cheat employers?  These issues are ALWAYS two-sided. Not anywhere near the scale employers do. So employees never take sickies? Never lazy, never late?  Never steal from employees? Get a grip. You seem to be attributing things to me I didn't say. At no point did I say or imply that employees don't rip-off employers, but employers have significantly more power in most jobs and are in a better position to rip-off without consequence. That is still a largely presumptive and unsupported statement. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. There are some bad ones of course, but they are largely ethical and well-behaved. Can you say the same about employees? The employee's ability to rip of the employer is everywhere while the reverse is largely not easy at all.

The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some.

I have never found that to be the case except for in areas where they know they will be caught. I have never worked for an employer who would not break laws when they knew they would get away with it and an awful lot falls into this category.

Just look at the arrears in super unpaid.

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:52am:

Just look at the arrears in super unpaid.

Taxation ,Industrial relations, contract negotiation, under the table activity, money in hand payments, contract inducements and benefits, kick backs etc.

Many companies if not most could put a tick in each box.

Dnarever wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:49am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:25am: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 5:23pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:58pm: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:26pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:07pm: You dont think employees cheat employers?  These issues are ALWAYS two-sided. Not anywhere near the scale employers do. So employees never take sickies? Never lazy, never late?  Never steal from employees? Get a grip. You seem to be attributing things to me I didn't say. At no point did I say or imply that employees don't rip-off employers, but employers have significantly more power in most jobs and are in a better position to rip-off without consequence. That is still a largely presumptive and unsupported statement. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. There are some bad ones of course, but they are largely ethical and well-behaved. Can you say the same about employees? The employee's ability to rip of the employer is everywhere while the reverse is largely not easy at all. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. I have never found that to be the case except for in areas where they know they will be caught. I have never worked for an employer who would not break laws when they knew they would get away with it and an awful lot falls into this category.

Ever taken a sickie, DNA?  Ever put in less than full effort in your 8 hour day?  If so, you have cheated your employer.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:25am:

The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some.

That's not a fact: it's uninformed opinion.

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 8:01am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:25am: The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. That's not a fact: it's uninformed opinion.

it is actually INFORMED opinion based on the nonexistence of an endless stream of most companies going to court over breaches.

Why don't you ask Waleed for your opinion?

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:58am:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:49am: mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:25am: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 5:23pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:58pm: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:26pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:07pm: You dont think employees cheat employers?  These issues are ALWAYS two-sided. Not anywhere near the scale employers do. So employees never take sickies? Never lazy, never late?  Never steal from employees? Get a grip. You seem to be attributing things to me I didn't say. At no point did I say or imply that employees don't rip-off employers, but employers have significantly more power in most jobs and are in a better position to rip-off without consequence. That is still a largely presumptive and unsupported statement. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. There are some bad ones of course, but they are largely ethical and well-behaved. Can you say the same about employees? The employee's ability to rip of the employer is everywhere while the reverse is largely not easy at all. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. I have never found that to be the case except for in areas where they know they will be caught. I have never worked for an employer who would not break laws when they knew they would get away with it and an awful lot falls into this category. Ever taken a sickie, DNA?  Ever put in less than full effort in your 8 hour day?  If so, you have cheated your employer.

I have a life time average consistent with the last ten years where I averaged about 1 day off per year. Mostly to attend funerals. My more recent time off included a shoulder operation where the Dr wanted ne to take off 6 weeks and I only took 15 days. This increased my average to 2.5 days per year average (10yr av). My leave history routinely shows periods of about 2 years with no day off.

I left 1 employer with over 2 years of unused personal leave and a second with about 8 months of unused leave.

Yes I am a dope in this area and I have a history of showing more loyalty than my employers have deserved, I never worked for any company where I would not have easily been in the top 5% of performers in this area.

The only time I have had off when not legitimately sick was due to bush fires where the roads were closed. On the job I was routinely the first to arrive and the last to leave.

I have been good value to any employer I worked for.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 8:10am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 8:01am: mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:25am: The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. That's not a fact: it's uninformed opinion. it is actually INFORMED ...

Not even close.

"ignorant: lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact".

Dnarever wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:44am:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 9:01pm: Dnarever wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 8:32pm: aquascoot wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 5:49pm: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:28pm: aquascoot wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 1:41pm: Kyrto when i look at those guys who are losing their jobs after years of work i see people who are scared and look tired. They basicly have been sold a lemon. Its actually a very similar look to what i see when i look at a guy who is getting divorced after a long marriage. society sells these guys a path which is just not realistic. if you are a good worker or a good husband, thats simply no gaurantee that life is going to work out well for you.  its a myth of the group think of society. every day in the workplace, every day in your relationships, you gotta bring your A game, you got to be growing, you got to be adapting, you got to be improving. its sad when they say  "ive worked here for 30 years (doing the same job) and how am i going to get another job...... i was a good husband for 30 years and how am  i going to get another wife. You know your average small business person is always scared and always tired but he learns to live with that, embrace it and uses it as a spur to personal improvement. If you think you can just learn a job at a steel company and then go into Durrrrrrr mode for 40 years, i'm sorry, society has sold you a pup. Welcome to the real world, now pick yourself up and learn the lessons you should have been learning every moment of every day for the last 40 years Effectively the days of doing the same job at the same place for life are mostly over. we are in furious agreement Yes it is a shame though. yes and no, like i said, the thing the small business person has always had to do is to be happy to live with ambiguity. to learn to live with a degree of fear. we all will need to do that now. the modern worker is really a small business person working for "myself pty ltd" he needs to have that mindset. he needs to market himself (positive psychology, good smile, firm handshake, well groomed, punctual) and he will need to improve himself (courses, studying, innovating, continuous education, learning IT). so there is more work, indeed. but the marriage analogy is valid. you dont get married and just go....righto , set for life, put in my hours, get fat, couch time, chode mode, do as little as possible and try to get away from the partner...not if you want a good marriage. same goes for a job...you will get more out of it if you improve yourself and you also make yourself indespensible and more likely to be kept on (ie you wont have to go thru as many painful relationship break ups/sackings) Don't like you analogy because it only translates into the real world theoretically and the realities are very different. We often come to odds because you primarily consider small business when I am thinking about a bigger corporate picture and we see the same issue with entirely different perspectives. In my view that long term tenure was a huge advantage to all and in the situation today everyone loses. There is currently a real disadvantage to employee loyalty and zero loyalty from the employer side. Note - this is where we transgress - when I say that I am thinking of a corporate situation and you would be thinking small business where some small vestiges of loyalty still exist, immediately you say I am wrong. The corporate reality is that the employee who shows loyalty is going to be dumped by the employer at probably the most disadvantageous time for him / her and this will happen irrespective of his ability commitment or performance. While on the other side we have the employee who shows no loyalty will stay just long enough to leverage the training experience and knowledge he wants and them moving on before paying back any of the effort put in by the employer. These are our most successful employees and in high demand but they only serve to drive down productivity as they leave just as they actually start to become useful. Unfortunately in the current world the most likely result of loyalty in employment is a kick in the guts mostly for no genuine reason.

yes , point taken.
i can see how this would happen.
This would be due to a failure of middle management in a big corporation.
Middle management , if not staffed with the right people could result in the loss of these valuable employees and the demise of the business.
(and i am firmly of the belief that increasingly, in a service economy, the people are the number one asset).
If top level management and middle management dont value loyalty and if they let their best workers go after training them, they have failed to understand the reality.

In short, they have been lazy and they have not been mindful


If you run a corporation in the service sector and you are lazy with the management of your number one asset (your staff)

You have .....

Messed up ;)

Dnarever wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 8:22am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:58am: Dnarever wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:49am: mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:25am: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 5:23pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:58pm: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:26pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:07pm: You dont think employees cheat employers?  These issues are ALWAYS two-sided. Not anywhere near the scale employers do. So employees never take sickies? Never lazy, never late?  Never steal from employees? Get a grip. You seem to be attributing things to me I didn't say. At no point did I say or imply that employees don't rip-off employers, but employers have significantly more power in most jobs and are in a better position to rip-off without consequence. That is still a largely presumptive and unsupported statement. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. There are some bad ones of course, but they are largely ethical and well-behaved. Can you say the same about employees? The employee's ability to rip of the employer is everywhere while the reverse is largely not easy at all. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. I have never found that to be the case except for in areas where they know they will be caught. I have never worked for an employer who would not break laws when they knew they would get away with it and an awful lot falls into this category. Ever taken a sickie, DNA?  Ever put in less than full effort in your 8 hour day?  If so, you have cheated your employer. I have a life time average consistent with the last ten years where I averaged about 1 day off per year. Mostly to attend funerals. My more recent time off included a shoulder operation where the Dr wanted ne to take off 6 weeks and I only took 15 days. This increased my average to 2.5 days per year average (10yr av). My leave history routinely shows periods of about 2 years with no day off. I left 1 employer with over 2 years of unused personal leave and a second with about 8 months of unused leave. Yes I am a dope in this area and I have a history of showing more loyalty than my employers have deserved, I never worked for any company where I would not have easily been in the top 5% of performers in this area. The only time I have had off when not legitimately sick was due to bush fires where the roads were closed. On the job I was routinely the first to arrive and the last to leave. I have been good value to any employer I worked for.

Good for you. Now, would you describe yourself as even remotely typical of workers in the companies you have been employed by?

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 9:03am:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 8:22am: mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:58am: Dnarever wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:49am: mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:25am: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 5:23pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:58pm: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:26pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:07pm: You dont think employees cheat employers?  These issues are ALWAYS two-sided. Not anywhere near the scale employers do. So employees never take sickies? Never lazy, never late?  Never steal from employees? Get a grip. You seem to be attributing things to me I didn't say. At no point did I say or imply that employees don't rip-off employers, but employers have significantly more power in most jobs and are in a better position to rip-off without consequence. That is still a largely presumptive and unsupported statement. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. There are some bad ones of course, but they are largely ethical and well-behaved. Can you say the same about employees? The employee's ability to rip of the employer is everywhere while the reverse is largely not easy at all. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. I have never found that to be the case except for in areas where they know they will be caught. I have never worked for an employer who would not break laws when they knew they would get away with it and an awful lot falls into this category. Ever taken a sickie, DNA?  Ever put in less than full effort in your 8 hour day?  If so, you have cheated your employer. I have a life time average consistent with the last ten years where I averaged about 1 day off per year. Mostly to attend funerals. My more recent time off included a shoulder operation where the Dr wanted ne to take off 6 weeks and I only took 15 days. This increased my average to 2.5 days per year average (10yr av). My leave history routinely shows periods of about 2 years with no day off. I left 1 employer with over 2 years of unused personal leave and a second with about 8 months of unused leave. Yes I am a dope in this area and I have a history of showing more loyalty than my employers have deserved, I never worked for any company where I would not have easily been in the top 5% of performers in this area. The only time I have had off when not legitimately sick was due to bush fires where the roads were closed. On the job I was routinely the first to arrive and the last to leave. I have been good value to any employer I worked for. Good for you. Now, would you describe yourself as even remotely typical of workers in the companies you have been employed by?

Its not enough to say "good for you" .
People should be rewarded for doing the right thing.
My dad left the railways with over a year of sick leave and got paid not one cent.

Clearly this is not incentivising the right behaviour.

i would make it a condition that workers be paid their full accrued sick leave when they leave work.
In fact, i would , perhaps, call for the number of sick days paid per annum to be reduced from 10 to 5 and for workers to not only be paid their unpaid sick leave, but with the savings made, they would be paid unclaimed sick leave at 150 %.

this then makes a real "good on you" into a tangible benefit.

We must always look at a desired behaviour and reward it.

This is not rocket science.

aquascoot wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 9:24am:

Its not enough to say "good for you" . People should be rewarded for doing the right thing. My dad left the railways with over a year of sick leave and got paid not one cent. Clearly this is not incentivising the right behaviour. i would make it a condition that workers be paid their full accrued sick leave when they leave work. In fact, i would , perhaps, call for the number of sick days paid per annum to be reduced from 10 to 5 and for workers to not only be paid their unpaid sick leave, but with the savings made, they would be paid unclaimed sick leave at 150 %. this then makes a real "good on you" into a tangible benefit. We must always look at a desired behaviour and reward it. This is not rocket science.

that doesn't encourage good behavior, it encourages bad behavior.

If you can feel a flu coming on, congestion of the sinus's, a tickle of the throat, but aren't really sick yet, you can stay home and nip it in the butt BEFORE it knocks you out completely, or you can push on, share the germs with all your colleagues until you are too sick to get out of bed, along with a high percentage of your colleagues leaving the business severely understaffed.

aquascoot wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 9:24am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 9:03am: Dnarever wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 8:22am: mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:58am: Dnarever wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:49am: mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:25am: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 5:23pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:58pm: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:26pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:07pm: You dont think employees cheat employers?  These issues are ALWAYS two-sided. Not anywhere near the scale employers do. So employees never take sickies? Never lazy, never late?  Never steal from employees? Get a grip. You seem to be attributing things to me I didn't say. At no point did I say or imply that employees don't rip-off employers, but employers have significantly more power in most jobs and are in a better position to rip-off without consequence. That is still a largely presumptive and unsupported statement. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. There are some bad ones of course, but they are largely ethical and well-behaved. Can you say the same about employees? The employee's ability to rip of the employer is everywhere while the reverse is largely not easy at all. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. I have never found that to be the case except for in areas where they know they will be caught. I have never worked for an employer who would not break laws when they knew they would get away with it and an awful lot falls into this category. Ever taken a sickie, DNA?  Ever put in less than full effort in your 8 hour day?  If so, you have cheated your employer. I have a life time average consistent with the last ten years where I averaged about 1 day off per year. Mostly to attend funerals. My more recent time off included a shoulder operation where the Dr wanted ne to take off 6 weeks and I only took 15 days. This increased my average to 2.5 days per year average (10yr av). My leave history routinely shows periods of about 2 years with no day off. I left 1 employer with over 2 years of unused personal leave and a second with about 8 months of unused leave. Yes I am a dope in this area and I have a history of showing more loyalty than my employers have deserved, I never worked for any company where I would not have easily been in the top 5% of performers in this area. The only time I have had off when not legitimately sick was due to bush fires where the roads were closed. On the job I was routinely the first to arrive and the last to leave. I have been good value to any employer I worked for. Good for you. Now, would you describe yourself as even remotely typical of workers in the companies you have been employed by? Its not enough to say "good for you" . People should be rewarded for doing the right thing. My dad left the railways with over a year of sick leave and got paid not one cent. Clearly this is not incentivising the right behaviour. i would make it a condition that workers be paid their full accrued sick leave when they leave work. In fact, i would , perhaps, call for the number of sick days paid per annum to be reduced from 10 to 5 and for workers to not only be paid their unpaid sick leave, but with the savings made, they would be paid unclaimed sick leave at 150 %. this then makes a real "good on you" into a tangible benefit. We must always look at a desired behaviour and reward it. This is not rocket science.

You and reality are miles apart aren’t you?

Encouraging people not to take sick leave is more on ic behaviour! I had one charlie like this in my last job in the PS. Never took a sicky, boasted of it. He would sit there with a heavy cold, sneezing, coughing, blowing his nose etc, all in a large city building with airconditioning. This idiot not staying home a day or two meant most winters I had URTI, typically needed a week off with a degree or two of fever.

Dnarever wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:44am:

Unfortunately in the current world the most likely result of loyalty in employment is a kick in the guts mostly for no genuine reason.

You got that right......  I can relate to your tale - thirteen years with a company, on call 24/7, 100+ hours a week the norm, only time off was a funeral and down with injury - kicked on the street without so much as a by your leave, and by a vindictive man agement that had not one idea how to run a company - but only how to ruin one.  First year as a public servant created an entire system they use today off my own bat, introduced pot plants etc for morale purposes - dumped to the bottom of the promotion chain as a ' boat rocker' while time servers and special groups got all the cream....

I know exactly what you're saying.  When you are the BEST worker you are taken for granted and used and then discarded at whim.  If you are sludge, you are on the same 'level' as 'management' and are no threat to them or their cosy world of shining a seat.

Ask me again why I'm here on OzPol when I see the same thing at top government level.

John Smith wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 9:39am:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 9:24am: Its not enough to say "good for you" . People should be rewarded for doing the right thing. My dad left the railways with over a year of sick leave and got paid not one cent. Clearly this is not incentivising the right behaviour. i would make it a condition that workers be paid their full accrued sick leave when they leave work. In fact, i would , perhaps, call for the number of sick days paid per annum to be reduced from 10 to 5 and for workers to not only be paid their unpaid sick leave, but with the savings made, they would be paid unclaimed sick leave at 150 %. this then makes a real "good on you" into a tangible benefit. We must always look at a desired behaviour and reward it. This is not rocket science. that doesn't encourage good behavior, it encourages bad behavior. If you can feel a flu coming on, congestion of the sinus's, a tickle of the throat, but aren't really sick yet, you can stay home and nip it in the butt BEFORE it knocks you out completely, or you can push on, share the germs with all your colleagues until you are too sick to get out of bed, along with a high percentage of your colleagues leaving the business severely understaffed.

;) ;)
i call this the human beings mental capacity to rationalise laziness .

"i cant work because i am too depressed"
(maybe you are depressed because you arent getting the joy of working)

"i cant get a girlfriend because i dont feel confident enough to ask anyone out"
(maybe your lack of confidence is seen by women as you being weak and they dont want to go out with you).


humans are great at rationalising anything
The book of excuses is a very very big book.
You should read ekhardt Tolles  "the power of now" . Its much shorter  ;)

Neoconservatism at work. Look after the CEO and top execs, forget about the rest.

aquascoot wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 9:24am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 9:03am: Dnarever wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 8:22am: mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:58am: Dnarever wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:49am: mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:25am: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 5:23pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:58pm: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:26pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:07pm: You dont think employees cheat employers?  These issues are ALWAYS two-sided. Not anywhere near the scale employers do. So employees never take sickies? Never lazy, never late?  Never steal from employees? Get a grip. You seem to be attributing things to me I didn't say. At no point did I say or imply that employees don't rip-off employers, but employers have significantly more power in most jobs and are in a better position to rip-off without consequence. That is still a largely presumptive and unsupported statement. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. There are some bad ones of course, but they are largely ethical and well-behaved. Can you say the same about employees? The employee's ability to rip of the employer is everywhere while the reverse is largely not easy at all. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. I have never found that to be the case except for in areas where they know they will be caught. I have never worked for an employer who would not break laws when they knew they would get away with it and an awful lot falls into this category. Ever taken a sickie, DNA?  Ever put in less than full effort in your 8 hour day?  If so, you have cheated your employer. I have a life time average consistent with the last ten years where I averaged about 1 day off per year. Mostly to attend funerals. My more recent time off included a shoulder operation where the Dr wanted ne to take off 6 weeks and I only took 15 days. This increased my average to 2.5 days per year average (10yr av). My leave history routinely shows periods of about 2 years with no day off. I left 1 employer with over 2 years of unused personal leave and a second with about 8 months of unused leave. Yes I am a dope in this area and I have a history of showing more loyalty than my employers have deserved, I never worked for any company where I would not have easily been in the top 5% of performers in this area. The only time I have had off when not legitimately sick was due to bush fires where the roads were closed. On the job I was routinely the first to arrive and the last to leave. I have been good value to any employer I worked for. Good for you. Now, would you describe yourself as even remotely typical of workers in the companies you have been employed by? Its not enough to say "good for you" . People should be rewarded for doing the right thing. My dad left the railways with over a year of sick leave and got paid not one cent. Clearly this is not incentivising the right behaviour. i would make it a condition that workers be paid their full accrued sick leave when they leave work. In fact, i would , perhaps, call for the number of sick days paid per annum to be reduced from 10 to 5 and for workers to not only be paid their unpaid sick leave, but with the savings made, they would be paid unclaimed sick leave at 150 %. this then makes a real "good on you" into a tangible benefit. We must always look at a desired behaviour and reward it. This is not rocket science.

Sick leave is for when you are SICK. It is not a reward.  If you aren't sick then you are better off.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:04am:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 9:24am: mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 9:03am: Dnarever wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 8:22am: mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:58am: Dnarever wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:49am: mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:25am: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 5:23pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:58pm: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:26pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:07pm: You dont think employees cheat employers?  These issues are ALWAYS two-sided. Not anywhere near the scale employers do. So employees never take sickies? Never lazy, never late?  Never steal from employees? Get a grip. You seem to be attributing things to me I didn't say. At no point did I say or imply that employees don't rip-off employers, but employers have significantly more power in most jobs and are in a better position to rip-off without consequence. That is still a largely presumptive and unsupported statement. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. There are some bad ones of course, but they are largely ethical and well-behaved. Can you say the same about employees? The employee's ability to rip of the employer is everywhere while the reverse is largely not easy at all. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. I have never found that to be the case except for in areas where they know they will be caught. I have never worked for an employer who would not break laws when they knew they would get away with it and an awful lot falls into this category. Ever taken a sickie, DNA?  Ever put in less than full effort in your 8 hour day?  If so, you have cheated your employer. I have a life time average consistent with the last ten years where I averaged about 1 day off per year. Mostly to attend funerals. My more recent time off included a shoulder operation where the Dr wanted ne to take off 6 weeks and I only took 15 days. This increased my average to 2.5 days per year average (10yr av). My leave history routinely shows periods of about 2 years with no day off. I left 1 employer with over 2 years of unused personal leave and a second with about 8 months of unused leave. Yes I am a dope in this area and I have a history of showing more loyalty than my employers have deserved, I never worked for any company where I would not have easily been in the top 5% of performers in this area. The only time I have had off when not legitimately sick was due to bush fires where the roads were closed. On the job I was routinely the first to arrive and the last to leave. I have been good value to any employer I worked for. Good for you. Now, would you describe yourself as even remotely typical of workers in the companies you have been employed by? Its not enough to say "good for you" . People should be rewarded for doing the right thing. My dad left the railways with over a year of sick leave and got paid not one cent. Clearly this is not incentivising the right behaviour. i would make it a condition that workers be paid their full accrued sick leave when they leave work. In fact, i would , perhaps, call for the number of sick days paid per annum to be reduced from 10 to 5 and for workers to not only be paid their unpaid sick leave, but with the savings made, they would be paid unclaimed sick leave at 150 %. this then makes a real "good on you" into a tangible benefit. We must always look at a desired behaviour and reward it. This is not rocket science. Sick leave is for when you are SICK. It is not a reward.  If you aren't sick then you are better off.

thats a bad attitude.
you would not do well in middle management with that attitude.
you need to reward , reward, reward those who work hard for you or they will go work hard for your competitors who have emotional intelligence  ;)

aquascoot wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 9:54am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 9:39am: aquascoot wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 9:24am: Its not enough to say "good for you" . People should be rewarded for doing the right thing. My dad left the railways with over a year of sick leave and got paid not one cent. Clearly this is not incentivising the right behaviour. i would make it a condition that workers be paid their full accrued sick leave when they leave work. In fact, i would , perhaps, call for the number of sick days paid per annum to be reduced from 10 to 5 and for workers to not only be paid their unpaid sick leave, but with the savings made, they would be paid unclaimed sick leave at 150 %. this then makes a real "good on you" into a tangible benefit. We must always look at a desired behaviour and reward it. This is not rocket science. that doesn't encourage good behavior, it encourages bad behavior. If you can feel a flu coming on, congestion of the sinus's, a tickle of the throat, but aren't really sick yet, you can stay home and nip it in the butt BEFORE it knocks you out completely, or you can push on, share the germs with all your colleagues until you are too sick to get out of bed, along with a high percentage of your colleagues leaving the business severely understaffed. ;) ;) i call this the human beings mental capacity to rationalise laziness . "i cant work because i am too depressed" (maybe you are depressed because you arent getting the joy of working) "i cant get a girlfriend because i dont feel confident enough to ask anyone out" (maybe your lack of confidence is seen by women as you being weak and they dont want to go out with you). humans are great at rationalising anything The book of excuses is a very very big book. You should read ekhardt Tolles  "the power of now" . Its much shorter  ;)

and I call you an idiot with his head firmly implanted up his horses arse.

I been in a situation where a staff member came to work with the start of a cold, the next week, I had a $35 000 job to finish on a deadline and no staff to do it. It would have been much better for me if he had taken that day or two off, and not infected the rest of my crew.

aquascoot wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:14am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 10:04am: aquascoot wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 9:24am: mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 9:03am: Dnarever wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 8:22am: mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:58am: Dnarever wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:49am: mariacostel wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 7:25am: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 5:23pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:58pm: Kytro wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:26pm: mariacostel wrote on Nov 18th, 2015 at 4:07pm: You dont think employees cheat employers?  These issues are ALWAYS two-sided. Not anywhere near the scale employers do. So employees never take sickies? Never lazy, never late?  Never steal from employees? Get a grip. You seem to be attributing things to me I didn't say. At no point did I say or imply that employees don't rip-off employers, but employers have significantly more power in most jobs and are in a better position to rip-off without consequence. That is still a largely presumptive and unsupported statement. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. There are some bad ones of course, but they are largely ethical and well-behaved. Can you say the same about employees? The employee's ability to rip of the employer is everywhere while the reverse is largely not easy at all. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. I have never found that to be the case except for in areas where they know they will be caught. I have never worked for an employer who would not break laws when they knew they would get away with it and an awful lot falls into this category. Ever taken a sickie, DNA?  Ever put in less than full effort in your 8 hour day?  If so, you have cheated your employer. I have a life time average consistent with the last ten years where I averaged about 1 day off per year. Mostly to attend funerals. My more recent time off included a shoulder operation where the Dr wanted ne to take off 6 weeks and I only took 15 days. This increased my average to 2.5 days per year average (10yr av). My leave history routinely shows periods of about 2 years with no day off. I left 1 employer with over 2 years of unused personal leave and a second with about 8 months of unused leave. Yes I am a dope in this area and I have a history of showing more loyalty than my employers have deserved, I never worked for any company where I would not have easily been in the top 5% of performers in this area. The only time I have had off when not legitimately sick was due to bush fires where the roads were closed. On the job I was routinely the first to arrive and the last to leave. I have been good value to any employer I worked for. Good for you. Now, would you describe yourself as even remotely typical of workers in the companies you have been employed by? Its not enough to say "good for you" . People should be rewarded for doing the right thing. My dad left the railways with over a year of sick leave and got paid not one cent. Clearly this is not incentivising the right behaviour. i would make it a condition that workers be paid their full accrued sick leave when they leave work. In fact, i would , perhaps, call for the number of sick days paid per annum to be reduced from 10 to 5 and for workers to not only be paid their unpaid sick leave, but with the savings made, they would be paid unclaimed sick leave at 150 %. this then makes a real "good on you" into a tangible benefit. We must always look at a desired behaviour and reward it. This is not rocket science. Sick leave is for when you are SICK. It is not a reward.  If you aren't sick then you are better off. thats a bad attitude. you would not do well in middle management with that attitude. you need to reward , reward, reward those who work hard for you or they will go work hard for your competitors who have emotional intelligence  ;)

I worked in HR for a long time. Much of that is nonsense. The number of employees you 'don't want to go work for your competitors' is actually very few - if any. 'Reward' is not defined as giving people time off from work to the detriment of the company. You reward your stellar employees by wage rises, better conditions and promotions. The ones who are only motivated by perks and sick leave are the ones you WANT to go work for your competitors!

John Smith wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:17am:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 9:54am: John Smith wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 9:39am: aquascoot wrote on Nov 19th, 2015 at 9:24am: Its not enough to say "good for you" . People should be rewarded for doing the right thing. My dad left the railways with over a year of sick leave and got paid not one cent. Clearly this is not incentivising the right behaviour. i would make it a condition that workers be paid their full accrued sick leave when they leave work. In fact, i would , perhaps, call for the number of sick days paid per annum to be reduced from 10 to 5 and for workers to not only be paid their unpaid sick leave, but with the savings made, they would be paid unclaimed sick leave at 150 %. this then makes a real "good on you" into a tangible benefit. We must always look at a desired behaviour and reward it. This is not rocket science. that doesn't encourage good behavior, it encourages bad behavior. If you can feel a flu coming on, congestion of the sinus's, a tickle of the throat, but aren't really sick yet, you can stay home and nip it in the butt BEFORE it knocks you out completely, or you can push on, share the germs with all your colleagues until you are too sick to get out of bed, along with a high percentage of your colleagues leaving the business severely understaffed. ;) ;) i call this the human beings mental capacity to rationalise laziness . "i cant work because i am too depressed" (maybe you are depressed because you arent getting the joy of working) "i cant get a girlfriend because i dont feel confident enough to ask anyone out" (maybe your lack of confidence is seen by women as you being weak and they dont want to go out with you). humans are great at rationalising anything The book of excuses is a very very big book. You should read ekhardt Tolles  "the power of now" . Its much shorter  ;) and I call you an idiot with his head firmly implanted up his horses arse.

Once again, succinct and accurate.

You're on a roll this morning, Mr Smith.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:25am:

That is still a largely presumptive and unsupported statement. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. There are some bad ones of course, but they are largely ethical and well-behaved. Can you say the same about employees? The employee's ability to rip of the employer is everywhere while the reverse is largely not easy at all.

There are have been several high-profile cases that show regulation is required even if most companies do obey the law. When there are high profile cases involving individual it often ends in prison time.

I don't think there is evidence for significant wide spread abuse by employees, but that does not change the fact the companies are in a position to do something abotu it most of the time as they tend to have more power than employees.

http://media.cagle.com/16/2012/10/30/121373_600.jpg