Firstly, let me state my biases -
1) I am an Atheist!
2) I am NOT a “believer”, in Politicians, from the Right, Left or Centre of politics, although a “select few” may get my nod, from time to time!

That said, I would firmly contend that Religion, ANY RELIGION, should not, must not, be allowed to “mix” with Politics.

AND, UNDER NOT CIRCUMSTANCES, CAN RELIGION, ANY RELIGION, BE ALLOWED TO USE FORCE, EITHER MENTAL OR PHYSICAL, IN ORDER TO BRING CHANGE TO THE POLITICAL ARENA!
IT SHOULD ALSO BE CLEAR THAT POLITICIANS MUST NOT USE RELIGIONS, IN ORDER TO GAIN ANY POLITICAL ADVANTAGE!

Certainly, anyone, any person, any Political &/or Religious organization, using physical force, injuring &/or Killing people, in order to gain any Political &/or Religious advantage/change, should be ostracised Publicly & Legally held accountable & the full weight of Local & Global Laws, should be brought to bear on them, by all concerned parties!

So, whatever the Religion & whatever the Political “leaning”, it’s well past time for Politicians & those in Religious organization's, to STOP THE SPIN, TO STOP DOING THINGS IN THEIR OWN SHORT TERM INTERESTS & START DOING EVERYTHING IN THE BEST, LONG TERM INTEREST OF THE WHOLE COUNTRY & INDEED THE ENTIRE PLANET!!!

I am an agnostic Perc but completely agree with your statement....Religions have tried to hold back progress based on superstition and outdated moral values....If religion is not part of the solution it is part of the problem!!!

:-? :-? :-?

Those who seek consolation in existing churches often pay for their peace of mind with a tacit agreement to ignore a great deal of what is known about the way the world works.
Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience, 1990

Religion is now working through the state, or at least the politicians, and are conducting the war on women many assumed it had lost.

At least in the US abortion and womens health and rights have been set back hugely. So much for “separation of Church and State!”

Your views are pretty much left leaning PN

I think politicians should be able to have whatever morals they get from their faith and be lead by that.  What I don't think should ever be allowed is to favour one religion in legislation of policy over others, like we currently do with school chaplains.

Besides, I'm confident that unlike the states, the chances of Australia electing a Noah's ark believing, evolution denying, executing the gays politician is pretty small.

How can you hope too have zero religious influence in democratic country? ;D

philperth2010 wrote on Nov 29^th, 2015 at 8:29pm:

I am an agnostic Perc but completely agree with your statement....Religions have tried to hold back progress based on superstition and outdated moral values....If religion is not part of the solution it is part of the problem!!! :-? :-? :-? Those who seek consolation in existing churches often pay for their peace of mind with a tacit agreement to ignore a great deal of what is known about the way the world works. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience, 1990

AND, the same goes for Politicians!

Maqqa wrote on Nov 29^th, 2015 at 9:59pm:

Your views are pretty much left leaning PN

Well Maqqa, you are wrong, yet again, which is usual!

That said, it's pretty clear, who pays for your views!

beer wrote on Nov 29^th, 2015 at 10:45pm:

How can you hope too have zero religious influence in democratic country? ;D

This is true

Stratos wrote on Nov 29^th, 2015 at 10:33pm:

I think politicians should be able to have whatever morals they get from their faith and be lead by that.  What I don't think should ever be allowed is to favour one religion in legislation of policy over others, like we currently do with school chaplains. Besides, I'm confident that unlike the states, the chances of Australia electing a Noah's ark believing, evolution denying, executing the gays politician is pretty small.

So, if that means rape, murder, War, then that's ok?

I think not!

beer wrote on Nov 29^th, 2015 at 10:45pm:

How can you hope too have zero religious influence in democratic country? ;D

Perhaps not ZERO influence, But everything has limits and it seems that Religion here & elsewhere has TOO MUCH INFLUENCE OVER POLITICS!

philperth2010 wrote on Nov 29^th, 2015 at 8:29pm:

I am an agnostic Perc but completely agree with your statement....Religions have tried to hold back progress based on superstition and outdated moral values....If religion is not part of the solution it is part of the problem!!! :-? :-? :-? Those who seek consolation in existing churches often pay for their peace of mind with a tacit agreement to ignore a great deal of what is known about the way the world works. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience, 1990

Ditto, organised religion of any description is the root of all evil. You need only look at the loony posts from here to see that. One loony religion does not counteract  another, they'll as loony/evil as each other. Religion has no place in politics.

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 29^th, 2015 at 7:40pm:

Firstly, let me state my biases - 1) I am an Atheist! 2) I am NOT a “believer”, in Politicians, from the Right, Left or Centre of politics, although a “select few” may get my nod, from time to time! That said, I would firmly contend that Religion, ANY RELIGION, should not, must not, be allowed to “mix” with Politics. AND, UNDER NOT CIRCUMSTANCES, CAN RELIGION, ANY RELIGION, BE ALLOWED TO USE FORCE, EITHER MENTAL OR PHYSICAL, IN ORDER TO BRING CHANGE TO THE POLITICAL ARENA! IT SHOULD ALSO BE CLEAR THAT POLITICIANS MUST NOT USE RELIGIONS, IN ORDER TO GAIN ANY POLITICAL ADVANTAGE! Certainly, anyone, any person, any Political &/or Religious organization, using physical force, injuring &/or Killing people, in order to gain any Political &/or Religious advantage/change, should be ostracised Publicly & Legally held accountable & the full weight of Local & Global Laws, should be brought to bear on them, by all concerned parties! So, whatever the Religion & whatever the Political “leaning”, it’s well past time for Politicians & those in Religious organization's, to STOP THE SPIN, TO STOP DOING THINGS IN THEIR OWN SHORT TERM INTERESTS & START DOING EVERYTHING IN THE BEST, LONG TERM INTEREST OF THE WHOLE COUNTRY & INDEED THE ENTIRE PLANET!!!

That statement is naive as well as very wrong. To presume to enforce a disconnect between religion and politics is to demand that a particularly viewpoint ie religious be not permitted in public discussion. This is discriminatory at the core. Religion is a defining aspect of many people's lives and since democracy is about representing ALL people's beleifs and opinions, the call to essentially ban religion in public life is undemocratic as well as offensive.

You are entitled to demand that religion does not run roughshod over majority opinion, but you are not entitled to demand that religion be silenced.

You are quite wrong in your post.

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 11:17am:

beer wrote on Nov 29th, 2015 at 10:45pm: How can you hope too have zero religious influence in democratic country? ;D Perhaps not ZERO influence, But everything has limits and it seems that Religion here & elsewhere has TOO MUCH INFLUENCE OVER POLITICS!

Why do you think that your belief set ie agnosticism is worthy of preferential treatment in a democratic country? You need to earn that right just as does every other influential group.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 11:23am:

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 29th, 2015 at 7:40pm: Firstly, let me state my biases - 1) I am an Atheist! 2) I am NOT a “believer”, in Politicians, from the Right, Left or Centre of politics, although a “select few” may get my nod, from time to time! That said, I would firmly contend that Religion, ANY RELIGION, should not, must not, be allowed to “mix” with Politics. AND, UNDER NOT CIRCUMSTANCES, CAN RELIGION, ANY RELIGION, BE ALLOWED TO USE FORCE, EITHER MENTAL OR PHYSICAL, IN ORDER TO BRING CHANGE TO THE POLITICAL ARENA! IT SHOULD ALSO BE CLEAR THAT POLITICIANS MUST NOT USE RELIGIONS, IN ORDER TO GAIN ANY POLITICAL ADVANTAGE! Certainly, anyone, any person, any Political &/or Religious organization, using physical force, injuring &/or Killing people, in order to gain any Political &/or Religious advantage/change, should be ostracised Publicly & Legally held accountable & the full weight of Local & Global Laws, should be brought to bear on them, by all concerned parties! So, whatever the Religion & whatever the Political “leaning”, it’s well past time for Politicians & those in Religious organization's, to STOP THE SPIN, TO STOP DOING THINGS IN THEIR OWN SHORT TERM INTERESTS & START DOING EVERYTHING IN THE BEST, LONG TERM INTEREST OF THE WHOLE COUNTRY & INDEED THE ENTIRE PLANET!!! That statement is naive as well as very wrong. To presume to enforce a disconnect between religion and politics is to demand that a particularly viewpoint ie religious be not permitted in public discussion. This is discriminatory at the core. Religion is a defining aspect of many people's lives and since democracy is about representing ALL people's beleifs and opinions, the call to essentially ban religion in public life is undemocratic as well as offensive. You are entitled to demand that religion does not run roughshod over majority opinion, but you are not entitled to demand that religion be silenced. You are quite wrong in your post.

So Longy, no doubt you are “a believer” in your particular Religion & Political party and you would have them as doing everything correctly?

Unfortunately, it is very likely that your Religion & your Political Party is “far from perfect” & they have actually been involved in wrong doings!

There is a saying that relates “to the separation of Church & State” AND WE WOULD BE WELL ADVISED TO TAKE HEED & IMPLEMENT THAT SAYING.

In fact, Religions & Politicians have certainly been involved in a great many wrong doings, including being the catalyst for many wars.

It is about time, We brought an end to such Religious & Political practices, before WE get caught up in the next round of preventable stupidity! 

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 11:14am:

So, if that means rape, murder, War, then that's ok?

Nobody would ever get elected on such a platform.  As long as we have a democracy, religion will to a certain extent be part of politics.  I don't like that, and think it should be separate, but by choosing to live here I accept that religious people will vote for the occasional nutcase. 

Then collectively the rest of Australia will tell them to shove it.

Democracy!

Stratos wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 12:54pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 30th, 2015 at 11:14am: So, if that means rape, murder, War, then that's ok? Nobody would ever get elected on such a platform.  As long as we have a democracy, religion will to a certain extent be part of politics.  I don't like that, and think it should be separate, but by choosing to live here I accept that religious people will vote for the occasional nutcase.  Then collectively the rest of Australia will tell them to shove it. Democracy!

It's not just Australia that is involved!

How about ISIS?

It's not likely that any Political Party is going to go to an election saying, we will allow church members to rape young children!

But, has it happened & how often are the perpetrators properly dealt with, in OZ or elsewhere?
Unyet, the Political Parties "allow" it to continue, because they don't actively act against it happening!

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 1:12pm:

How about ISIS?

I'm not familiar with their political structure but I somehow doubt it's democratic.


perceptions_now wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 1:12pm:

But, has it happened & how often are the perpetrators properly dealt with, in OZ or elsewhere?

You mean people have made it legal to do harmful things?  We have the Human Rights Commission so that people can't just change certain laws to suit themselves.

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 12:49pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 30th, 2015 at 11:23am: perceptions_now wrote on Nov 29th, 2015 at 7:40pm: Firstly, let me state my biases - 1) I am an Atheist! 2) I am NOT a “believer”, in Politicians, from the Right, Left or Centre of politics, although a “select few” may get my nod, from time to time! That said, I would firmly contend that Religion, ANY RELIGION, should not, must not, be allowed to “mix” with Politics. AND, UNDER NOT CIRCUMSTANCES, CAN RELIGION, ANY RELIGION, BE ALLOWED TO USE FORCE, EITHER MENTAL OR PHYSICAL, IN ORDER TO BRING CHANGE TO THE POLITICAL ARENA! IT SHOULD ALSO BE CLEAR THAT POLITICIANS MUST NOT USE RELIGIONS, IN ORDER TO GAIN ANY POLITICAL ADVANTAGE! Certainly, anyone, any person, any Political &/or Religious organization, using physical force, injuring &/or Killing people, in order to gain any Political &/or Religious advantage/change, should be ostracised Publicly & Legally held accountable & the full weight of Local & Global Laws, should be brought to bear on them, by all concerned parties! So, whatever the Religion & whatever the Political “leaning”, it’s well past time for Politicians & those in Religious organization's, to STOP THE SPIN, TO STOP DOING THINGS IN THEIR OWN SHORT TERM INTERESTS & START DOING EVERYTHING IN THE BEST, LONG TERM INTEREST OF THE WHOLE COUNTRY & INDEED THE ENTIRE PLANET!!! That statement is naive as well as very wrong. To presume to enforce a disconnect between religion and politics is to demand that a particularly viewpoint ie religious be not permitted in public discussion. This is discriminatory at the core. Religion is a defining aspect of many people's lives and since democracy is about representing ALL people's beleifs and opinions, the call to essentially ban religion in public life is undemocratic as well as offensive. You are entitled to demand that religion does not run roughshod over majority opinion, but you are not entitled to demand that religion be silenced. You are quite wrong in your post. So Longy, no doubt you are “a believer” in your particular Religion & Political party and you would have them as doing everything correctly? Unfortunately, it is very likely that your Religion & your Political Party is “far from perfect” & they have actually been involved in wrong doings! There is a saying that relates “to the separation of Church & State” AND WE WOULD BE WELL ADVISED TO TAKE HEED & IMPLEMENT THAT SAYING. In fact, Religions & Politicians have certainly been involved in a great many wrong doings, including being the catalyst for many wars. It is about time, We brought an end to such Religious & Political practices, before WE get caught up in the next round of preventable stupidity!

What a load of garbage! As if all the disasters, wars and genocides have been religious!  Never heard of Mao, Stalin, POl Pot and the ever infamous Hitler?

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 1:12pm:

Stratos wrote on Nov 30th, 2015 at 12:54pm: perceptions_now wrote on Nov 30th, 2015 at 11:14am: So, if that means rape, murder, War, then that's ok? Nobody would ever get elected on such a platform.  As long as we have a democracy, religion will to a certain extent be part of politics.  I don't like that, and think it should be separate, but by choosing to live here I accept that religious people will vote for the occasional nutcase.  Then collectively the rest of Australia will tell them to shove it. Democracy! It's not just Australia that is involved! How about ISIS? It's not likely that any Political Party is going to go to an election saying, we will allow church members to rape young children! But, has it happened & how often are the perpetrators properly dealt with, in OZ or elsewhere? Unyet, the Political Parties "allow" it to continue, because they don't actively act against it happening!

The irony is that your ID uses the word 'perceptions' as if you are perceptive in some way. This thread actually shows you are really quite ignorant of the real world.

Stratos wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 1:17pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 30th, 2015 at 1:12pm: How about ISIS? I'm not familiar with their political structure but I somehow doubt it's democratic. perceptions_now wrote on Nov 30th, 2015 at 1:12pm: But, has it happened & how often are the perpetrators properly dealt with, in OZ or elsewhere? You mean people have made it legal to do harmful things?  We have the Human Rights Commission so that people can't just change certain laws to suit themselves.

Actually, the HRC has no power over legislation at all. Only the parliament can enact and alter laws and the High Court is limited to ruling on their constitutionality.  A more accurate point is that parliament tends to not be able to legislate laws just for a single person or body.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 4:17pm:

A more accurate point is that parliament tends to not be able to legislate laws just for a single person or body.

Ah yes, you are correct.

Not having religion associated with politics sounds like an item from the agenda list of the atheism religion.
Catch 22, either path will result in one religion or the other influencing politics.

It seems the idea of separation of powers is a solid idea that, unfortunately, is not applied in a solid way - that's human's for you eh?

That's what this seems to be about, no single interest group (whether it be organised religion or a decoupage interest group) should ever be allowed to hold sway politically... Of course though, if said interest groups have the numbers democratically, well then I guess in a democracy they have every right to have sway... The downside is though, that we don't actually have a genuinely democratic system, nor is one necessarily possible. Democracy and corruption will always be bedfellows. A dictator for example does not have to explain or justify decisions made, they just have them implemented for better or worse - less corruption but also less individual rights.

I don't think PN is all that wrong in his thinking. Likewise I understand where Maria is coming from, albeit not terribly well thought out in response, however, I think the point is valid, what about democracy?

____ wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 4:31pm:

Not having religion associated with politics sounds like an item from the agenda list of the atheism religion. Catch 22, either path will result in one religion or the other influencing politics.

The shock is that something so deep and obviously true came from... you.

Many of us may never recover.

Phemanderac wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 4:39pm:

It seems the idea of separation of powers is a solid idea that, unfortunately, is not applied in a solid way - that's human's for you eh? That's what this seems to be about, no single interest group (whether it be organised religion or a decoupage interest group) should ever be allowed to hold sway politically... Of course though, if said interest groups have the numbers democratically, well then I guess in a democracy they have every right to have sway... The downside is though, that we don't actually have a genuinely democratic system, nor is one necessarily possible. Democracy and corruption will always be bedfellows. A dictator for example does not have to explain or justify decisions made, they just have them implemented for better or worse - less corruption but also less individual rights. I don't think PN is all that wrong in his thinking. Likewise I understand where Maria is coming from, albeit not terribly well thought out in response, however, I think the point is valid, what about democracy?

If democracy chose to support a large portion of a religious agenda then the principle of democracy should support it. We do not have any significant examples of any group - religious or union - running the country. Sure, both groups (and others) have strong influence, but if these influences are representative then they are in fact the very core ideals of democracy.

IMperceptive is absolutely wrong on all counts.

Sex abuse commission: Melbourne Archdiocese failed to respond to paedophile priests

http://www.smh.com.au/national/sex-abuse-commission-melbourne-archdiocese-failed-to-respond-to-paedophile-priests-20151130-glbmjl.html
===============================================
How often do we hear of something like the above?

BUT, HOW OFTEN DOES NOTHING HAPPEN!

HOW OFTEN ARE THE OFFENDERS NOT PURSUED FULLY VIA THE LEGAL SYSTEM & THOSE "HIGHER UP" IN THE CHURCH & IN POLITICS, SEEN TO NOT DO ENOUGH, TO ENSURE THE OFFENDERS ARE CONVICTED!?

perceptions_now wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 7:20pm:

Sex abuse commission: Melbourne Archdiocese failed to respond to paedophile priests http://www.smh.com.au/national/sex-abuse-commission-melbourne-archdiocese-failed-to-respond-to-paedophile-priests-20151130-glbmjl.html =============================================== How often do we hear of something like the above? BUT, HOW OFTEN DOES NOTHING HAPPEN! HOW OFTEN ARE THE OFFENDERS NOT PURSUED FULLY VIA THE LEGAL SYSTEM & THOSE "HIGHER UP" IN THE CHURCH & IN POLITICS, SEEN TO NOT DO ENOUGH, TO ENSURE THE OFFENDERS ARE CONVICTED!?

Are you trying to say something of substance or merely vomiting on to the screen? I completely dismantled your argument and others agreed with me.

mariacostel wrote on Dec 1^st, 2015 at 6:45am:

[quote author=perceptions_now link=1448790055/26#26 date=1448875206]Sex abuse commission: Melbourne Archdiocese failed to respond to paedophile priests http://www.smh.com.au/national/sex-abuse-commission-melbourne-archdiocese-failed-to-respond-to-paedophile-priests-20151130-glbmjl.html =============================================== How often do we hear of something like the above? BUT, HOW OFTEN DOES NOTHING HAPPEN! HOW OFTEN ARE THE OFFENDERS NOT PURSUED FULLY VIA THE LEGAL SYSTEM & THOSE "HIGHER UP" IN THE CHURCH & IN POLITICS, SEEN TO NOT DO ENOUGH, TO ENSURE THE OFFENDERS ARE CONVICTED!?

Are you trying to say something of substance or merely vomiting on to the screen? I completely dismantled your argument and others agreed with me.[/quote]

Really Longy???
So, you agree that Religions should be left alone, no matter what they do???
How about Muslims & the Labor Party, should they be allowed to do what they want or is it only your Church & your Political Party???
Or, is it

Politicians - Can't Trust ANY of them!!!
======================================
'Black lung' disease returns to Queensland mines

The potentially deadly black lung disease has re-emerged in Australian coalmines for the first time in more than three decades.
Queensland Mines Minister Anthony Lynham confirmed in parliament on Tuesday that three cases of pneumoconiosis - or black lung - had been reported by the state's coal industry.
The disease, caused by long-term exposure to fine airborne coal dust in areas with poor ventilation, was thought to have been wiped out in Australia.
Since 1947, X-rays and lung tests have been used to detect early signs of pneumoconiosis.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace-relations/black-lung-disease-returns-to-queensland-mines-20151201-glcqzo.html
============================================
According to the ABC 7.30 Report tonight, legislation controlling air ventilation/dust particles has not been enforced, for quite some time.

Also, despite medical checks back in in early 1980's showing up some 75 miners who may well have contracted the disease, nothing happened, no action was taken.

Finally, despite the 3 recent reported cases, these were only pursued after local checks failed to report any problem & finally a US expert confirmed a Black Lung diagnosis!   

As usual, Liberal, Nationals, Labor & the Union will blame everyone, except themselves.

BUT, THE TRUTH IS THEY ALL HAD PRIOR OPPORTUNITY & NONE OF THEM TOOK ANY APPROPRIATE ACTION!!!

Who can WE Trust?
Certainly not Politicians, Religions, Unions, nor their "true believer Supporters"!

perceptions_now wrote on Dec 1^st, 2015 at 10:07pm:

Politicians - Can't Trust ANY of them!!! ====================================== 'Black lung' disease returns to Queensland mines The potentially deadly black lung disease has re-emerged in Australian coalmines for the first time in more than three decades. Queensland Mines Minister Anthony Lynham confirmed in parliament on Tuesday that three cases of pneumoconiosis - or black lung - had been reported by the state's coal industry. The disease, caused by long-term exposure to fine airborne coal dust in areas with poor ventilation, was thought to have been wiped out in Australia. Since 1947, X-rays and lung tests have been used to detect early signs of pneumoconiosis. http://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace-relations/black-lung-disease-returns-to-queensland-mines-20151201-glcqzo.html ============================================ According to the ABC 7.30 Report tonight, legislation controlling air ventilation/dust particles has not been enforced, for quite some time. Also, despite medical checks back in in early 1980's showing up some 75 miners who may well have contracted the disease, nothing happened, no action was taken. Finally, despite the 3 recent reported cases, these were only pursued after local checks failed to report any problem & finally a US expert confirmed a Black Lung diagnosis!    As usual, Liberal, Nationals, Labor & the Union will blame everyone, except themselves. BUT, THE TRUTH IS THEY ALL HAD PRIOR OPPORTUNITY & NONE OF THEM TOOK ANY APPROPRIATE ACTION!!! Who can WE Trust? Certainly not Politicians, Religions, Unions, nor their "true believer Supporters"!

So, it seems that no one disagrees with the concept that we can not trust them, any of them!
Not even Longy raises a disagreement?

perceptions_now wrote on Dec 5^th, 2015 at 11:31am:

Global Crisis: Goldman Sachs Says That Brazil Has Plunged Into 'An Outright Depression' One of the most important banks in the western world says that the 7th largest economy on the entire planet has entered a full-blown economic depression. Brazil's  economy has now contracted for three quarters in a row, and many analysts believe that things are going to get far worse before they have a chance to get any better. The surging U.S. dollar is absolutely crushing emerging markets such as Brazil, and if the Fed raises interest rates this month, that is going to make the pain even worse. The global financial system is more interconnected than ever before, and the decisions made by the Federal Reserve truly do have global consequences. So much of the "hot money" that was created by the Fed poured into emerging markets such as Brazil during the good times, but now the process is starting to reverse itself. At this point, it is hard to see how much of South America is going to avoid a complete and total economic disaster. The following comes from a Bloomberg article that was just posted entitled "Goldman Warns of Brazil Depression After GDP Plunges Again"… Latin America's largest economy shrank more than analysts forecast, as rising unemployment and higher inflation sapped domestic demand, pulling the nation deeper into what Goldman Sachs now calls "an outright depression." Gross domestic product in Brazil contracted 1.7 percent in the three months ended in September, after a revised 2.1 percent drop the previous quarter, the national statistics institute said in Rio de Janeiro. That's worse than all but three estimates from 44 economists surveyed by Bloomberg, whose median forecast was for a 1.2 percent decline. It also marks the first three-quarter contraction since the institute's series began in 1996, and a seasonally adjusted annual drop of 6.7 percent. And when you look deeper into the numbers they become even more disturbing. Unemployment is rising, consumer spending is way down, and investment spending is absolutely collapsing. Here is some of the data that Goldman Sachs just released that comes via Zero Hedge… Private consumption has now declined for three consecutive quarters (at an average quarterly rate of -8.5% qoq sa, annualized), and investment spending for nine consecutive quarters (at an average rate of -10.0% qoq sa, annualized). The term "economic depression" is not something that should be used lightly, because it conjures up images of the Great Depression of the 1930s. And the Brazilian economy is very important to the global economic system. So if Brazil is feeling pain, it is going to affect all of us. Of course, Brazil is far from alone. The third largest economy on the globe, Japan, has also now slipped into recession territory. So has Russia. And just today we learned that Canadian GDP is plunging… Who could have seen that coming? It appears, for America's northern brethren, low oil prices are unequivocally terrible. Against expectations of a flat 0.0% unchanged September, Canadian GDP plunged 0.5% - its largest MoM drop since March 2009 and the biggest miss since Dec 2008. It is just a matter of time before this global economic downturn catches up with us here in the U.S. too. Another indicator that I am watching is the velocity of money. When an economy is healthy, money tends to flow fairly freely. I buy something from you, and then you buy something from someone else, etc. But when economic conditions start to get tough, people start to hold on to their money. That means that money doesn't change hands as quickly and the velocity of money goes down. As you can see below, the velocity of money has declined during every single recession since 1960… https://staticseekingalpha.a.ssl.fastly.net/uploads/2015/12/2/saupload_Velocity-Of-Money-M2-460x306.png When a recession ends, the velocity of money normally starts going back up. But a funny thing happened when the last recession ended. The velocity of money ticked up slightly, but then it started going down steadily. In fact, it has kept on declining ever since and it has now hit a brand new all-time record low. This is not normal. Yes, Wall Street is temporarily flying high for the moment, but the underlying economic fundamentals are all screaming that something is horribly wrong. A global crisis has begun, and the U.S. will not be immune from it. I truly believe that we are heading toward the worst economic downturn that any of us have ever experienced. But there are many out there that insist that nothing is the matter and that happy times are ahead. http://seekingalpha.com/article/3726466-global-crisis-goldman-sachs-says-that-brazil-has-plunged-into-an-outright-depression?ifp=0 ============================================== Well, I tend to agree! The Real World indicators, which can be trusted, unlike some "Government Spin", are tending to indicate the Global Economy is in Decline and there is nothing in the Global Economic Basics, which would suggest any bounce back is on the way!

Politicians, Religions - Can't Trust ANY of them, to tell us, the truth, the whole truth & nothing but the truth!!!

I re-post the following here, as it is relevant!


perceptions_now wrote on Dec 7^th, 2015 at 12:50pm:

Japan's Back In A Recession: We're Next Summary Why Japan's economy crashed. Why Japan's efforts to stimulate the economy are destined to fail. What we can expect to see in their economic future. As we forecast decades ago, Japan was the first developed country to go off the demographic cliff. Their massive baby boom and the real estate and stock bubbles that came with it, all burst. Japan has already gone through what the rest of the developed world has since or will go through shortly… but nobody gets it. Japan didn't see it coming, and neither will Germany, Europe, or the U.S. ahead. Never has an emerging country rose to wealth and developed country status as fast as Japan, in just three decades from the 1960s through the 1980s. And never has such a major economic and military power fallen so rapidly. Japan's steep demographic slide was so strong that, even while the rest of the world saw the greatest global boom in history (as we also forecast), everything crashed. Japanese stocks went down 60% in the early 1990s and real estate followed the same amount. Stocks eventually went down 80% in 2003, and real estate has never bounced - still down 60% today in residential, and 80% in commercial. But Abe Shinzo, Japan's prime minister, and Haruhiko Kuroda, its central bank head, still think they can just stimulate their way out of the endless demographic landslide. They're convinced this is just a monetary problem of not enough inflation to get consumers to spend. Hate to break it to them, but not only do aging consumers spend less and less, especially on real estate - they die. In early 2013, this dynamic duo declared war on deflation (which is laughable) and aggressively increased QE, to more than double that of the Fed and the ECB at their peak rates. But then, they increased it another 60% in late 2014 to triple. And sure, their stock market doubled - as pumping up stocks seems to be about the only thing QE's capable of - but their debt has risen to the highest in the world at 246% GDP, and 680% for total private and government! Look at some stats since the tripling of QE in early 2013, compared to growth in private consumption and GDP. https://staticseekingalpha.a.ssl.fastly.net/uploads/2015/12/2/saupload_The-Failure-of-Abenomics_thumb1.png The Bank of Japan's balance sheet has increased by 120%, which just blows my mind. No government has ever come close to these extremes. And yet, inflation has only risen 2% in this time frame of just over 2 years. How could this be with such massive money creation? The answer is that they're fighting massive deflationary forces from aging and record debt levels. Private consumption from consumers has actually fallen 2%, or just less than 1% a year. Economists blame this on the rise in sales taxes from 5% to 8% in early 2014 to help offset their huge government deficits and debt. That's when they upped QE another 60%. That didn't work either, as aging and demographics is the real problem. Make no mistake: Japan's efforts have been an abysmal failure. They're mortgaging their future with QE and rising debt as their population and workforce ages predictably, even decades into the future. And it gets worse. After their millennials end their upswing from 2003 to 2020, their demographics worsen forever! The final judgment is coming. Japan just entered an official recession with 0.8% declines in GDP in each of the last two quarters. The worst sector, business investment, is down 5% in Q3 and Q2. We continue to not learn from Japan's lead. We're following them into a coma economy with similar policies of denial, instead of restructuring our debt and deleveraging it. http://seekingalpha.com/article/3730126-japans-back-in-a-recession-were-next?ifp=0 ============================================= So, who is next, when will be the turn of OZ & how deep will it go? AND, WHAT WILL IT TAKE, FOR THE POLITICIANS & CB'S, IN OZ & ELSEWHERE, TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS TIME IS DIFFERENT & FOR THEM TO START ACTING DIFFERENTLY???

Talking to yourself on this thread says all you need to know about what other people think about it...

mariacostel wrote on Dec 7^th, 2015 at 12:59pm:

Talking to yourself on this thread says all you need to know about what other people think about it...

Well, you have your own "beliefs" Longy, But I am simply looking to provide "some Realities", so people can come to their own Conclusions/Realities, whatever that may be!