More and more we see secularism are more inclusive. But it only works on those who wish to assimilate

Words such secularism and assimilation seems contradictory. But secularism works as it's based upon common law

Globalisation is more than economics. Globalisation needs secularism to work i.e. common law.

Correct your tenses, if you wish to be taken seriously.

Maqqa wrote on Dec 17^th, 2015 at 9:12pm:

More and more we see secularism are more inclusive. But it only works on those who wish to assimilate Words such secularism and assimilation seems contradictory. But secularism works as it's based upon common law Globalisation is more than economics. Globalisation needs secularism to work i.e. common law.

Quote:

Secularism is a belief system that rejects religion, or the belief that religion should not be part of the affairs of the state or part of public education. The principles of separation of church and state and of keeping religion out of the public school system are an example of secularism.

::) ::) ::)

Maqqa wrote on Dec 17^th, 2015 at 9:12pm:

More and more we see secularism are more inclusive. But it only works on those who wish to assimilate Words such secularism and assimilation seems contradictory. But secularism works as it's based upon common law Globalisation is more than economics. Globalisation needs secularism to work i.e. common law.

USA deposes secular Arab leaders like Saddam Hussein, Muammar Gaddafi and now trying to depose Assad.

USA is the biggest force of instability in the world.

Secularization should start in the USA with removal of all bulldust religious customs from USA daily life.

phil we are talking about religion and government (state)

Islam is a pseudo religion/government

Secularism is about common law for all

Maqqa wrote on Dec 17^th, 2015 at 10:57pm:

phil we are talking about religion and government (state) Islam is a pseudo religion/government Secularism is about common law for all

So you would dictate what Muslims can and cannot do in their own country by making them secular....You want them to assimilate when they come here and yet would deny them the same right in their own country (Secularise (Westernise) the world)....I find that somewhat hypocritical to be honest???

:-? :-? :-?

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 17^th, 2015 at 11:10pm:

Maqqa wrote on Dec 17th, 2015 at 10:57pm: phil we are talking about religion and government (state) Islam is a pseudo religion/government Secularism is about common law for all So you would dictate what Muslims can and cannot do in their own country by making them secular....You want them to assimilate when they come here and yet would deny them the same right in their own country (Secularise (Westernise) the world)....I find that somewhat hypocritical to be honest??? :-? :-? :-?

I am suggesting secularism can work in an Islamic State. For the moment lets forget Islamic State refers to the terrorists that occupy Raqqa.

Lets look at Islamic State as a government system inspired by Islamic religious belief. There are degrees of "inspiration"

Saudi Arabia is an example of 100% inspiration whereas Malaysia and Indonesia is say 20% (I am making assumptions for discussion purposes)

At 20% inspiration - the government system has room for secularism

With globalisation - you need common ground.

Saudi Arabia has money to give everyone the finger i.e. if people want to live there then they need to follow Sharia Law. They do whatever they want

Its also interesting that you advocate Muslims are allowed to do whatever they want in their country but Australians need to be cultural sensitive to Muslims in Australia

Should we be able to do whatever we want without being labelled Islamophobic or racist?

Maqqa wrote on Dec 18^th, 2015 at 12:07am:

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 17th, 2015 at 11:10pm: Maqqa wrote on Dec 17th, 2015 at 10:57pm: phil we are talking about religion and government (state) Islam is a pseudo religion/government Secularism is about common law for all So you would dictate what Muslims can and cannot do in their own country by making them secular....You want them to assimilate when they come here and yet would deny them the same right in their own country (Secularise (Westernise) the world)....I find that somewhat hypocritical to be honest??? :-? :-? :-? I am suggesting secularism can work in an Islamic State. For the moment lets forget Islamic State refers to the terrorists that occupy Raqqa. Lets look at Islamic State as a government system inspired by Islamic religious belief. There are degrees of "inspiration" Saudi Arabia is an example of 100% inspiration whereas Malaysia and Indonesia is say 20% (I am making assumptions for discussion purposes) At 20% inspiration - the government system has room for secularism With globalisation - you need common ground. Saudi Arabia has money to give everyone the finger i.e. if people want to live there then they need to follow Sharia Law. They do whatever they want Its also interesting that you advocate Muslims are allowed to do whatever they want in their country but Australians need to be cultural sensitive to Muslims in Australia Should we be able to do whatever we want without being labelled Islamophobic or racist?

I would rather deal with reality Maqqa....If you don't like the laws in a Muslim country don't go there....That is why I live in a secular country....It is not me who is advocating changing anyone else's way of life or beliefs!!!

::) ::) ::)

Secularise (Westernise) the world



Maqqa,

ISLAM is a spiritual evil.

It is impossible to fight against a spiritual evil [like ISLAM],         ....while we continue to denying that that spiritual evil exists.

But that is precisely what secularism insists!


Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


Maqqa,

I assume you will claim that you are a secularist.

But you are not.

You have a religion.

And each of us has a religion.

The way that we live our life,         .....that, is our 'religion'.

And our 'profession' [the precepts which we live by], in this world,         .....that, is our 'religion'.



Pursuing a secular lifestyle [on a personal level], allows us to [on a personal level] abandon spiritual precepts.

What is secularism ?

Dictionary;
secular = = not religious, sacred, or spiritual.

Truth, is a spiritual precept.

Maqqa,

Q.
Why has the 'West' been so easily and so comprehensively 'infiltrated', by the spiritual evil which ISLAM has brought with it, to our lands/nations ?

A.
Because we, as people and nations long ago, abandoned spiritual truth,      ....for secular lies.

e.g.
'Good and evil do not exist.'

'We, ourselves, are the arbiters of what is good, and of what is not good.'


And that type of thinking has brought mankind, to where he is today.



.


Maqqa,

You seem to be suggesting that to fight against something like ISLAM, that we need to bolster, and to spread secularism, and secular principles in the world.

Maqqa,

OBSERVATION;
Malcolm Turnbull is a secularist.       !!!!!


Maqqa,

QUESTION;
Do you believe that if Australia was a nation which was full of persons like Malcolm Turnbull [or e.g. Tony Jones - Q&A], that Australia would have the wherewithal, to resist and overcome an evil, like ISLAM ?

LOL !!!!!

You are living in a dream-world, imo.

---------- >    !!!!!!!!

http://concit.org/turnbulls-ignorance-of-islam-is-dangerous-for-australia/





'What are the most important things in life?'
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1434160480/1#1



Truth will defeat ISLAM.

Truth will banish ISLAM.

But first, we [as individuals] must be prepared to confront what is true.

We must be prepared to grasp hold of truth.


And, i do not believe that mankind, today, has the moral capacity to actually do that!



------------- >

David Wood on the 3 stages of Jihad                  24 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rjdO4cfeEg

As an informative and revelatory YouTube on ISLAM,
Yadda gives this David Wood YouTube 5/5 stars.

Gadda

It's simple - secularism in my view a separation of church and state (government)

Back in the dark ages the church had great influences over kings and queens in governing the country.

Throughout history we've seen people use the Bible as a means to govern people e.g. Ten Commandments

Christian's evolved somewhat and while the Vatican can rant and rave - the Christians are for the most part secular i.e. keeping religion out of government (to a large degree)

However this is not the case in a Sharia Law countries. Sharia Law is Islam's equivalent of the 10 Commandments but in a lot more details

In modern society I can covert my neighbour's wife and the law won't do anything to me - but do you know what happens in Saudi Arabia when you break one of their laws in the Q'ran?

Maqqa wrote on Dec 18^th, 2015 at 12:07am:

I am suggesting secularism can work in an Islamic State. For the moment lets forget Islamic State refers to the terrorists that occupy Raqqa.

I believe it did before The Coalition if the Silly went into Iraq.

you need to study  nietchze and shopenhauer both of whom railed against religion, both of whom were devout aetheists and both of whom, seemed to come to the consclusion that religion was a neccessary part of society and that without it, large numbers of people would simply fall apart.

just because something may be based on superstitions  or belief systems which have no basis in logic or science does not mean they do not serve a useful purpose.


where do the secularists propose we get our belief system?

from michel focault and the anarchists?

you risk nihilism, a breakdown of the social fabric.

you can really only replace religion with philosophy and the arts  and these are , yet again, another personal belief system.

science can only ever answer the
"how"
it cannot answer the "why"

even if you think religion (or the arts or philosophy ) are mumbo jumbo, dont think science is going to be the cure all.

it most certainly is not  ;)

Science is a method of study and discovery. It gives us tools that help solve problems even social problems, but it is still a method.

Community is important (and all to infrequent these days), but community does not need to come from religion. There isn't a necessity for it. 

People are living in huge groups, but with less community and we are not so well equipped to deal with modern life.

Kytro wrote on Dec 18^th, 2015 at 7:00am:

Science is a method of study and discovery. It gives us tools that help solve problems even social problems, but it is still a method. Community is important (and all to infrequent these days), but community does not need to come from religion. There isn't a necessity for it.  People are living in huge groups, but with less community and we are not so well equipped to deal with modern life.

this is true kyrto, because science is a rudderless ship and secularism as well has no direction.

secularism seeks to replace genuine contentment (how i feel when i sit and look at my horses for an hour and feel content) with stimulation.

stimulation of the palate with sugars and spicey pizza
stimualtion with iphones and games and stimualtion from the validation of instagram and facebook
if you catch a bus, everyone has headphones and the latest scientific technology games and devices.
apple watches to look at their heart rate and gps.
movies are becoming bigger louder and faster.
science will give you this stimulation (which is really a distraction) because chode behaviour can live in this stimulation realm.

life becomes meaningless.

if we replace religion with the great thinkers then this may work

but many of these were religious , or certainly spiritual.

Jesus
buddha
Lao tzu
aquascoot


study these people may work,  i dont think you can just leave the space empty or you will have people in nihilism and neurotic negative thinking.

Sun Tzu wrote on Dec 17^th, 2015 at 10:57pm:

Maqqa wrote on Dec 17th, 2015 at 9:12pm: More and more we see secularism are more inclusive. But it only works on those who wish to assimilate Words such secularism and assimilation seems contradictory. But secularism works as it's based upon common law Globalisation is more than economics. Globalisation needs secularism to work i.e. common law. USA deposes secular Arab leaders like Saddam Hussein, Muammar Gaddafi and now trying to depose Assad. USA is the biggest force of instability in the world. Secularization should start in the USA with removal of all bulldust religious customs from USA daily life.

The US is hardly a secular society. The next global hegemon, however, is. China is not religious at all.

As China slowly spreads its tentacles around the world, Maqqa may well have his wish come true.

Karnal wrote on Dec 18^th, 2015 at 7:35am:

China is not religious at all.

It's more complicated than that.  While organised religion isn't the same as many other countries, there are many superstitions that are very commonplace.  There are also beliefs like Confucianism and Taoism that are often labelled as philosophies, but have a role almost identical to other religions.

Stratos wrote on Dec 18^th, 2015 at 7:41am:

Karnal wrote on Dec 18th, 2015 at 7:35am: China is not religious at all. It's more complicated than that.  While organised religion isn't the same as many other countries, there are many superstitions that are very commonplace.  There are also beliefs like Confucianism and Taoism that are often labelled as philosophies, but have a role almost identical to other religions.

Agree totally.
i have no problem with the Dao or confuscianism being taught in schools and promoted .

the dao is a very wise philosophy.

But i do have a problem with leftard intellectuals promoting their flawed philosophy of negative neurotic thinking.

whereas most of the eastern philosophies promote stillness, wisdom , manners and quiet contemplation...

the lefty intellectuals have very poor control of their emotions and promote 'rent a crowd' 'activism" "noise"
a rollercoaster of emotions and a flighty, spooky anxious neurotic, negative and envious greedy way of looking at the world.
in fact  , i find the angry greenie or the angry leftie functioning at a very low level of consciousness.
i call it 'animal consciousness" and you only have to look at a socialist alliance rally or occupy wall st to see people with very animal like emotional control.

aquascoot wrote on Dec 18^th, 2015 at 8:00am:

i have no problem with the Dao or confuscianism being taught in schools and promoted .

This I think is where we differ.  I would argue that schools, and by extension the state, should not promote any religion to the exclusion of others.  Teach all the major world beliefs, as they are a very important part of culture and history, and there are many worthwhile practices found in almost all religions, but don't pick one (or a few) to promote.

Central to the China or Saudi Arabia society are ideals - Communism and Islamic

Confuciusm , Buddhism and other major religions in China do not provide governing systems

Islam provide this governing systems through Q'ran and Haddith.

Karnal wrote on Dec 18^th, 2015 at 7:35am:

The US is hardly a secular society. The next global hegemon, however, is. China is not religious at all. As China slowly spreads its tentacles around the world, Maqqa may well have his wish come true.

If you look at the way the US/UN wage wars - they want to convert the conquered countries to a democracy

Iraq - they tried to get all the tribes together. It's not working

Stratos wrote on Dec 18^th, 2015 at 8:24am:

aquascoot wrote on Dec 18th, 2015 at 8:00am: i have no problem with the Dao or confuscianism being taught in schools and promoted . This I think is where we differ.  I would argue that schools, and by extension the state, should not promote any religion to the exclusion of others.  Teach all the major world beliefs, as they are a very important part of culture and history, and there are many worthwhile practices found in almost all religions, but don't pick one (or a few) to promote.

stratos,
we vaccinate kids at school because we recognise that it is scientificlly good for them.

i think if we did a scientific study we could prove that teaching kids meditation is scientificly good for them.

there ,

i found a use for science after all.

but you see THATS the problem.  not all things can be concluded in a peer reviewed scientific study.
and to exclude very useful things because of this, is to use science as a cop out.

this is a very dangerous and poorly understood concept about the limits of science

post #14

K,

One of the more readable utterances you have posted in quite a while.

Well done.

Stratos wrote on Dec 18^th, 2015 at 7:41am:

Karnal wrote on Dec 18th, 2015 at 7:35am: China is not religious at all. It's more complicated than that.  While organised religion isn't the same as many other countries, there are many superstitions that are very commonplace.  There are also beliefs like Confucianism and Taoism that are often labelled as philosophies, but have a role almost identical to other religions.

Organized religion is all but illegal in China, Stratos. The Pentecostal movement is growing there, but it's all in secret, household meetings.

Confucianism is not religious, it's a philosophy. Taoism is all but dead. The sort of ancestor worship and spirit belief you see ethnic Chinese people practice is conducted in other countries: Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, etc. Maoism was deadly serious about eradicating superstitious belief in China. The education system is deeply rationalist. Mainland Chinese people are very suspicious about religious practices and claims. Look at what they've done in Tibet.

There is no organized religion in China - at all.

aquascoot wrote on Dec 18^th, 2015 at 8:39am:

i think if we did a scientific study we could prove that teaching kids meditation is scientificly good for them.

aquascoot,

I agree.

Meditation is/would be, a very beneficial exercise for [almost ?] everyone.

I can't think of anyone, who could not benefit from its practice.

Maqqa wrote on Dec 18^th, 2015 at 8:36am:

Karnal wrote on Dec 18th, 2015 at 7:35am: The US is hardly a secular society. The next global hegemon, however, is. China is not religious at all. As China slowly spreads its tentacles around the world, Maqqa may well have his wish come true. If you look at the way the US/UN wage wars - they want to convert the conquered countries to a democracy. Iraq - they tried to get all the tribes together. It's not working

No Maqqa, the US has traditionally worked under a "realist" foreign affairs model, a doctrine elaborated by Kissenger. Under this model, the US prohibits democracy and supports dictators. In all cases of direct US intervention - e.g, Iran, Guatemala, Chile - the US has ousted elected leaders and fostered military regimes.

Iraq was an exception to the rule. In nearly every case of US involvement/intervention since the Cold War, the US has backed military coups and prevented democracy. And interestingly, Iraq was the US's biggest failure.

Previously, The US backed Saddam. Even after the first Gulf War, the US supported Saddam to remain in power. The US has never promoted democracy in the Middle East. The failure of the Arab Spring is a direct result of this. The foundations of democracy have never been built. Colonization was replaced with the US's military friends, backed with arms, military training, foreign aid, and in many cases, CIA involvement.

In the US's only two colonies, Cuba and the Philippines (won during the Spanish-American war), the US supported military dictators. Only when the US left, did the Philippines get democracy.

West Germany and Japan were notable exceptions to this rule. Restoring or promoting democracy has never happened in any other countries the US has been involved with.

As every schoolboy knows.

Karnal wrote on Dec 18^th, 2015 at 1:12pm:

Stratos wrote on Dec 18th, 2015 at 7:41am: Karnal wrote on Dec 18th, 2015 at 7:35am: China is not religious at all. It's more complicated than that.  While organised religion isn't the same as many other countries, there are many superstitions that are very commonplace.  There are also beliefs like Confucianism and Taoism that are often labelled as philosophies, but have a role almost identical to other religions. Organized religion is all but illegal in China, Stratos. The Pentecostal movement is growing there, but it's all in secret, household meetings. Confucianism is not religious, it's a philosophy. Taoism is all but dead. The sort of ancestor worship and spirit belief you see ethnic Chinese people practice is conducted in other countries: Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, etc. Maoism was deadly serious about eradicating superstitious belief in China. The education system is deeply rationalist. Mainland Chinese people are very suspicious about religious practices and claims. Look at what they've done in Tibet. There is no organized religion in China - at all.

this is changing karnal


hen considering the latest outbreak of persecution against Christians in China, what you have to understand is that there are already thought to be more Christians there (some 100 million) than members of the Communist party (87 million). This is not an impressive outcome for 70 years of intermittently ferocious atheist suppression of religion: when the Communists seized power in 1947, there were only around 4 million Christians in the country. Under Mao, an estimated 500,000 Christians died for – or because of – their faith. Yet since the Maoist state was opened to capitalism in the 1980s, Christianity, along with other religions, has grown at an astonishing rate.


China's crusade to remove crosses from churches 'is for safety concerns'
Read more
This week it was reported that Christian leaders in eastern China had taken to the streets in protest at the removal of crosses; in the past two years, it’s estimated that more than 1,200 crosses have been removed from churches in Zhejiang province as part of a government initiative. The periodic campaigns against Christianity in China might suggest that the religion is a foreign import that the authorities can hope to suppress, and a fringe element in Chinese life. This would be almost entirely wrong. Although Christianity is undoubtedly an import to China, Christians argue that it is as well placed as any religion there, since the Communist regime so successfully persecuted traditional Chinese belief systems as well.

China is on course, over the next 15 years, to become the world’s most populous Christian nation. It is also home to the largest population of atheists in the world – according to Pew Research, 46% of the world’s atheists are based in China. There are Muslims in the west of China and Buddhists in Tibet, for both of whom religion is also an expression of national or ethnic dissatisfaction with the Han Chinese. Traditional religion is also returning. But there’s no doubt that Christianity is growing the fastest.

Perhaps the strangest thing about this recent growth is that it must almost all have happened by conversion. The one-child policy, if nothing else, ensures that Christianity is not spread by large families. New conversions to Christianity in China are mostly found among the educated and striving classes. About half of the country’s few human rights lawyers are Christians, as are many of the leaders of the pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong.

The Communist party, like Henry VIII, wants to decide who runs the church in its country
This growth means the real fight is not over whether China will become a country with a significant Christian presence, but who will control the burgeoning churches.

The Vatican knows this well. I have been told by insiders that the strategic thrust of Pope Francis’s diplomacy is all directed eastwards, towards the emergence of China as a great religious power. Chinese relations with the Vatican have long been fraught because of conflicts over the control of the Church, and in particular the control of appointments. The Communist party, like Henry VIII, wants to decide who runs the church in its country. The Pope, now as then, is not going to concede the point.

Advertisement

This is one reason why the great majority of Chinese Christians are Protestants of one sort or another, most deriving ultimately from Presbyterian missions in the 19th and early 20th centuries. The decentralised structure of this form of Christianity helps it to grow and spread, but also makes it much harder for governments to cut lasting deals with it. That’s the same kind of problem European governments face with Islam: who are the leaders?

Some of the churches attacked in the most recent wave of persecutions have been official and state-sanctioned members of the “Three-Self” movement, a Protestant denomination that is meant to be entirely under government control (many of the churches have CCTV cameras facing the pulpits, to check the sermons for political unorthodoxy). All this suggests a party that really does not know what to do. Marxism is emptied of content in today’s China, and capitalism alone will not supply big collective dreams. Nationalism is too dangerous. But Christianity cannot be entirely tamed.

aquascoot wrote on Dec 18^th, 2015 at 1:28pm:

Marxism is emptied of content in today’s China, and capitalism alone will not supply big collective dreams. Nationalism is too dangerous. But Christianity cannot be entirely tamed.

Good points, Aquascoot. Since the revolution, the CPP has always sought socialism "with Chinese characteristics". For a period, it held itself up as the "true" Marxist/Leninist party, in opposition to Soviet "revisionism". This, of course, was just naked self-promotion, but they were right - the Soviets weren't true Marxist/Leninists either.

But China is quite Marxist in its rationalist/materialist mindset. In 66 years, it has had the biggest social transformation in human history. Transforming China from an agrarian economy to an urban manufacturing one has been a project bigger than the building of the Great Wall. It has required a change in mindset that has been equally transformative.

I agree that capitalism alone can't supply collective dreams (if not individual ones). The CPP's collective dream in China is nationalism.

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 17^th, 2015 at 11:10pm:

Maqqa wrote on Dec 17th, 2015 at 10:57pm: phil we are talking about religion and government (state) Islam is a pseudo religion/government Secularism is about common law for all So you would dictate what Muslims can and cannot do in their own country by making them secular....You want them to assimilate when they come here and yet would deny them the same right in their own country (Secularise (Westernise) the world)....I find that somewhat hypocritical to be honest??? :-? :-? :-?

You seem to be inventing some kind of human right on behalf of these people? What right is that? The right to live under some kind of dictatorship - because that is what these people really want?

Do you see the global spread of political secularism as a bad thing?


Quote:

The US is hardly a secular society.

It depends which definition of secular you take. If you take it to mean there is no institutionalised connection between church and state, then yes it is. Insisting that people must not be guided by their beliefs when they vote is a bit ridiculous.


Quote:

The next global hegemon, however, is. China is not religious at all. As China slowly spreads its tentacles around the world, Maqqa may well have his wish come true.

Only if they become more similar to western society in all other respects.


Quote:

i think if we did a scientific study we could prove that teaching kids meditation is scientificly good for them

Can you explain what "scientifically good" means? I do not recall seeing the word good (or bad) in a science textbook.


Quote:

i found a use for science after all.

To tell us what is good?


Quote:

this is a very dangerous and poorly understood concept about the limits of science

Most people understand the limits of science intuitively. Even your post on the previous page - it is about how, not why. I would suggest you also add it is about what will happen, not what should happen. Scientifically good is a contradiction.


Quote:

Organized religion is all but illegal in China, Stratos. The Pentecostal movement is growing there, but it's all in secret, household meetings.

My understanding is that it is not that extreme. It is open proselytising that is illegal. Happy clapping is permitted.

shouldnt this be in feedback.. or better still the Sustainability party ... where the few knowitalls.. can head butt each other.... with their supposed intellect. ::) ::)

I should say.. wisemen can bounce their knowledge off each other...

that might save a ban.. :) :)

Secular governments as the engine room of every economy seems fair for everyone

Within that engine room everyone gets to choose the types of religion that fine tunes their own way of life so long as it does not contravene the law of the land

The law of the land should be based upon equity rather than religious nuances

cods wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 8:49am:

shouldnt this be in feedback.. or better still the Sustainability party ... where the few knowitalls.. can head butt each other.... with their supposed intellect. ::) ::) I should say.. wisemen can bounce their knowledge off each other... that might save a ban.. :) :)

:-? you stepping on toes cods?  ;) ;)

The purpose of this thread is not about theological discussion

I am looking for a common view on separation between a religious body and government

We've seen the church/mosques try to govern our morals as well as our life