MAD Max Fury Road is the fourth in George Miller’s beyond civilisation franchise. It could be about the Middle East today. If it was, Israel would undoubtedly be the hero assailed by shrieking barbarians. Beyond its borders lie the moral badlands Miller attempts to capture in his film but here it isn’t fiction.

Occasionally the lawlessness Israel encounters on a daily basis spills over into the streets of global cities like Paris, London, Madrid and Sydney, and most famously Manhattan on 9/11.

When it does so, it is called terrorism and it makes international headlines.

Here, in Jerusalem, where I am writing at the conclusion of the seventh Australia, Israel, UK Leadership Dialogue, an initiative of Melbourne-based Moroccan-born entrepeneur and jazz artist Albert Dadon, it is an accepted part of daily life.

When an act of barbarism was committed in Paris earlier this year, flags were lowered to half-mast around the world, #hashtag empathists emoted in floods of cyber tears.

No-one lowers a flag when an Israeli is murdered. Indeed, no-one blinks when the flags of the terrorist organisations Hamas and Hezbollah are waved at rallies in Sydney and Melbourne by pro-Palestinian groups yet these criminal organisations murder members of the Palestinian community, loot aid money to line their officials’ pockets, and, most abominably, poison the minds of the Palestinian children in a bid to further the virulent hatred on which their corrupt ­societies in Gaza and on the West Bank rely.

Over the past four days, a number of MPs from both ends of the political spectrum, academics and journalists from Australia, Israel and the U.K. have heard an array of opinions. A group was even permitted to journey to Ramallah on the West Bank to hear from the Prime Minister of the state of Palestine, Dr Rami Hamdallah, and Education Minister Dr Sabri Saidam. As no journalists were included in the group, a report was prepared by a neutral member of the delegation and it would be fair to say it was met with lies and blunt obfuscation.

Hamdallah is not a politician and Saidam is, to say the least, agile. Both men were asked about the Palestinian Authority’s contemptible practise of glorifying terrorists as martyrs, or naming schools and sporting teams after individuals who have committed the most appalling crimes, and of the banning of activity which might lead to the normalisation of relations between Palestinian and Israeli children. They denied any knowledge of such activities. They treated the members of the delegation as fools.

In March, the Palestinian Authority celebrated the anniversary of the most deadly terrorist attack on Israelis, the Coastal Road Massacre in which Palestinian terrorists murdered 37 Israeli civilians, 12 of them children.

In addition to the three schools already named for terrorist Dalal Mughrabi, who led the bus hijacking in 1978, a square was dedicated to her memory along with an image of her and a map which includes what the Authority teaches its people is Palestine — all of Israel.

There are 25 schools named after terrorists and pupils wear on their uniforms the logos of terrorist brigades and appear regularly on Palestine television avowing their wish to become martyrs.

There are no schools named after terrorists or suicide bombers in Israel.

Just last month, a little girl about 6 or 7, appeared on social media brandishing a large knife as she chanted: “Stab, stab, stab, stab, stab”.

Given this level of state-sponsored child abuse, it is not to be unexpected that a 13-year-old Palestinian boy was recently involved in a stabbing, though Ahmed Manasra later said his 15-year-old cousin, Hassan Manasra, had made him do it. Ahmed was wounded by security forces and treated in an Israeli hospital by an Israeli Muslim surgeon after the attack.

Children aren’t born hating, they have to be taught to hate.

Contrary to former NSW Premier Bob Carr’s recent claims about the so-called Jewish lobby in Australia, Israel is a transparent liberal democracy which respects the rule of law. His ridiculous remarks will resound in the echo chamber of the socialist Left and gain some traction with Islamic extremists but they don’t stand up to scrutiny.

Israel is being treated unfairly in the court of world opinion and has been since the surrounding Arab nations attempted to invade and obliterate it the day after it came into existence — with the help of Australia.

Our nation was instrumental in liberating Jerusalem from the Ottoman Empire in WWI, after the Australian Light Horse famously captured Beersheba after a heroic cavalry charge at Beersheba in October, 1917, six weeks earlier. Australia was prominent in the negotiations which led to the formation of the state of Israel.

Israel, which adopted the British legal system as its model, is now the watchtower on the edge of the civilised world yet it is offered contumely by people like Carr and associates in the Labor Party, like Fremantle MP Melissa Parkes and shrill followers of the Socialist Alliance and the deluded promoters of the vile anti-Semitic BDS movement.

The daily acts of terror committed with knifes, cars, pistols and bombs by young people have nothing to do with politics, they’re just about killing Israelis because that’s what these kids are being taught.

Cont'd...

Cont'd...

A former head of the Israeli intelligence service Shin Bet told me that he had locked away between 40 and 50 Israelis convicted of planning or committing terrorist acts each year. After 21 years, the Palestinian Authority has not brought one Palestinian terrorist to trial.

In Israel, the howl of the barbarians is always in earshot blowing from the other side of the security wall.

As a delegate, Piers Akerman’s trip was hosted by the Australia, Israel, UK Leadership Dialogue.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/teaching-terror-across-the-world/story-fni0cwl5-1227659527639

This is why Mossad was allowed their "00" license

With terrorists who do not respect civility - you do no extend civility.

Greens are antisemitic as well

Ok putting the obvious aside that Hamas are evil etc etc etc, who paid for Piers? It better not have been the tax payer!!!!  If I'm paying for journalists to travel, it better be actual journalists who know how to write. Not glorified megaphones.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 6:33am:

Ok putting the obvious aside that Hamas are evil etc etc etc, who paid for Piers? It better not have been the tax payer!!!!  If I'm paying for journalists to travel, it better be actual journalists who know how to write. Not glorified megaphones.

Is it okay if taxpayers paid for a journo from a Fauxfax rag?

Armchair_Politician wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 6:40am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 6:33am: Ok putting the obvious aside that Hamas are evil etc etc etc, who paid for Piers? It better not have been the tax payer!!!!  If I'm paying for journalists to travel, it better be actual journalists who know how to write. Not glorified megaphones. Is it okay if taxpayers paid for a journo from a Fauxfax rag?

I dont care who they work for, as long as they arent a glorified megaphone and as long as they can formulate sentences properly.  Dipstick piers should have been disqualified automatically.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 7:08am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 6:40am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 6:33am: Ok putting the obvious aside that Hamas are evil etc etc etc, who paid for Piers? It better not have been the tax payer!!!!  If I'm paying for journalists to travel, it better be actual journalists who know how to write. Not glorified megaphones. Is it okay if taxpayers paid for a journo from a Fauxfax rag? I dont care who they work for, as long as they arent a glorified megaphone and as long as they can formulate sentences properly.  Dipstick piers should have been disqualified automatically.

Why? He seems to form some pretty eloquent thoughts and can string them together into quite lengthy sentences. Seems to meet your criteria for this trip.

Armchair_Politician wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 7:12am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 7:08am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 6:40am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 6:33am: Ok putting the obvious aside that Hamas are evil etc etc etc, who paid for Piers? It better not have been the tax payer!!!!  If I'm paying for journalists to travel, it better be actual journalists who know how to write. Not glorified megaphones. Is it okay if taxpayers paid for a journo from a Fauxfax rag? I dont care who they work for, as long as they arent a glorified megaphone and as long as they can formulate sentences properly.  Dipstick piers should have been disqualified automatically. Why? He seems to form some pretty eloquent thoughts and can string them together into quite lengthy sentences. Seems to meet your criteria for this trip.

Yes but you're a DT dj. Your opinion on this is biased. The rest of us who can form our own opinions, well for me at least knowing that piers got a tax payer funded trip is infuriating!  What can he possibly offer to the delegation, other than his typical crossed eyed lost look and then spending 24 hours trying to type out 100 words that sell some typical propaganda Rubbish?

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 7:16am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 7:12am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 7:08am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 6:40am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 6:33am: Ok putting the obvious aside that Hamas are evil etc etc etc, who paid for Piers? It better not have been the tax payer!!!!  If I'm paying for journalists to travel, it better be actual journalists who know how to write. Not glorified megaphones. Is it okay if taxpayers paid for a journo from a Fauxfax rag? I dont care who they work for, as long as they arent a glorified megaphone and as long as they can formulate sentences properly.  Dipstick piers should have been disqualified automatically. Why? He seems to form some pretty eloquent thoughts and can string them together into quite lengthy sentences. Seems to meet your criteria for this trip. Yes but you're a DT dj. Your opinion on this is biased. The rest of us who can form our own opinions, well for me at least knowing that piers got a tax payer funded trip is infuriating!  What can he possibly offer to the delegation, other than his typical crossed eyed lost look and then spending 24 hours trying to type out 100 words that sell some typical propaganda Rubbish?

You're not biased at all, are you?

Armchair_Politician wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 7:25am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 7:16am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 7:12am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 7:08am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 6:40am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 6:33am: Ok putting the obvious aside that Hamas are evil etc etc etc, who paid for Piers? It better not have been the tax payer!!!!  If I'm paying for journalists to travel, it better be actual journalists who know how to write. Not glorified megaphones. Is it okay if taxpayers paid for a journo from a Fauxfax rag? I dont care who they work for, as long as they arent a glorified megaphone and as long as they can formulate sentences properly.  Dipstick piers should have been disqualified automatically. Why? He seems to form some pretty eloquent thoughts and can string them together into quite lengthy sentences. Seems to meet your criteria for this trip. Yes but you're a DT dj. Your opinion on this is biased. The rest of us who can form our own opinions, well for me at least knowing that piers got a tax payer funded trip is infuriating!  What can he possibly offer to the delegation, other than his typical crossed eyed lost look and then spending 24 hours trying to type out 100 words that sell some typical propaganda Rubbish? You're not biased at all, are you?

I am objective.  You, on the other hand, get told what to think. That's why the moment it gets too hard you always disappear.

Dear AP, I am not Anti-Israel, and I don't contest anything you said in the OP. But these kinds of arguments supporting Israel always avoid the fact that Israel is a nation dedicated to the Jewish faith. You can pretty it up, but its a religious state. I don't support the idea of religious states.

Secondly, while you tug at our heart strings with all the atrocities perpetrated against Israel, you have to acknowledge that the people who established the State of Israel knew full well they were taking on a violent and fanatically religious enemy. It is only the later generations of Jews who portray Israel as a beacon of democracy.

Quote:

........................Hamdallah is not a politician and Saidam is, to say the least, agile. Both men were asked about the Palestinian Authority’s contemptible practise of glorifying terrorists as martyrs, or naming schools and sporting teams after individuals who have committed the most appalling crimes, and of the banning of activity which might lead to the normalisation of relations between Palestinian and Israeli children. They denied any knowledge of such activities. They treated the members of the delegation as fools. In March, the Palestinian Authority celebrated the anniversary of the most deadly terrorist attack on Israelis, the Coastal Road Massacre in which Palestinian terrorists murdered 37 Israeli civilians, 12 of them children. In addition to the three schools already named for terrorist Dalal Mughrabi, who led the bus hijacking in 1978, a square was dedicated to her memory along with an image of her and a map which includes what the Authority teaches its people is Palestine — all of Israel. There are 25 schools named after terrorists and pupils wear on their uniforms the logos of terrorist brigades and appear regularly on Palestine television avowing their wish to become martyrs...............

this is the death cult islam

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 6:33am:

Ok putting the obvious aside that Hamas are evil etc etc etc, who paid for Piers? It better not have been the tax payer!!!!  If I'm paying for journalists to travel, it better be actual journalists who know how to write. Not glorified megaphones.

Like you are remotely qualified to make a judgement about Ackerman's journalistic & writing skills.
What an absolute giggle.

bogarde73 wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 2:18pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 6:33am: Ok putting the obvious aside that Hamas are evil etc etc etc, who paid for Piers? It better not have been the tax payer!!!!  If I'm paying for journalists to travel, it better be actual journalists who know how to write. Not glorified megaphones. Like you are remotely qualified to make a judgement about Ackerman's journalistic & writing skills. What an absolute giggle.

and he has to ask stooooopid questions like WHO PAYING PIERS...

he was behind the door when god was issuing intelligence..... he is almost on a par with monk when it comes to stoooooopid.. ;D ;D ;D

issuevoter wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 1:17pm:

Dear AP, I am not Anti-Israel, and I don't contest anything you said in the OP. But these kinds of arguments supporting Israel always avoid the fact that Israel is a nation dedicated to the Jewish faith. You can pretty it up, but its a religious state. I don't support the idea of religious states. Secondly, while you tug at our heart strings with all the atrocities perpetrated against Israel, you have to acknowledge that the people who established the State of Israel knew full well they were taking on a violent and fanatically religious enemy. It is only the later generations of Jews who portray Israel as a beacon of democracy.

Israel is not a religious state.  Show laws that would define israel as a religious state. 

Israel is very much a democracy.

cods wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 3:45pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 2:18pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 6:33am: Ok putting the obvious aside that Hamas are evil etc etc etc, who paid for Piers? It better not have been the tax payer!!!!  If I'm paying for journalists to travel, it better be actual journalists who know how to write. Not glorified megaphones. Like you are remotely qualified to make a judgement about Ackerman's journalistic & writing skills. What an absolute giggle. and he has to ask stooooopid questions like WHO PAYING PIERS... he was behind the door when god was issuing intelligence..... he is almost on a par with monk when it comes to stoooooopid.. ;D ;D ;D

So who paid for his trip, cuddles?

bogarde73 wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 2:18pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 6:33am: Ok putting the obvious aside that Hamas are evil etc etc etc, who paid for Piers? It better not have been the tax payer!!!!  If I'm paying for journalists to travel, it better be actual journalists who know how to write. Not glorified megaphones. Like you are remotely qualified to make a judgement about Ackerman's journalistic & writing skills. What an absolute giggle.

Like you are remotely qualified to pass judgmenet on anyone being qualified to pass judgement on piers,  what a giggle.
Piers writes for the semi literate, because he is one himself.  It is fairly well known.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 6:37pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 2:18pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 6:33am: Ok putting the obvious aside that Hamas are evil etc etc etc, who paid for Piers? It better not have been the tax payer!!!!  If I'm paying for journalists to travel, it better be actual journalists who know how to write. Not glorified megaphones. Like you are remotely qualified to make a judgement about Ackerman's journalistic & writing skills. What an absolute giggle. Like you are remotely qualified to pass judgmenet on anyone being qualified to pass judgement on piers,  what a giggle. Piers writes for the semi literate, because he is one himself. It is fairly well known.

alevine,


'Your opinion on this is biased.

I am objective.'


:)



p.s.

Interesting and informative article,    in the OP.

Yadda,       ....the person with the objective opinion.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 6:35pm:

issuevoter wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 1:17pm: Dear AP, I am not Anti-Israel, and I don't contest anything you said in the OP. But these kinds of arguments supporting Israel always avoid the fact that Israel is a nation dedicated to the Jewish faith. You can pretty it up, but its a religious state. I don't support the idea of religious states. Are you telling us Israel was established to bring democracy to the Middle East. That's laughable. Secondly, while you tug at our heart strings with all the atrocities perpetrated against Israel, you have to acknowledge that the people who established the State of Israel knew full well they were taking on a violent and fanatically religious enemy. It is only the later generations of Jews who portray Israel as a beacon of democracy. Israel is not a religious state.  Show laws that would define israel as a religious state.  Israel is very much a democracy.

Doesn't matter whether it is a democracy or not. Take a look at the flag; know what the Star of David is there for?  Whether they have democratic system of choosing the party that runs the government, it is still a government founded to protect and advance the Jewish religion. If it was not, they could have all stayed home.

We blame Islam here, Armchair, so we should be right.

Those who blame the Jews are laying low for a while.

issuevoter wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 10:51pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 6:35pm: issuevoter wrote on Dec 19th, 2015 at 1:17pm: Dear AP, I am not Anti-Israel, and I don't contest anything you said in the OP. But these kinds of arguments supporting Israel always avoid the fact that Israel is a nation dedicated to the Jewish faith. You can pretty it up, but its a religious state. I don't support the idea of religious states. Are you telling us Israel was established to bring democracy to the Middle East. That's laughable. Secondly, while you tug at our heart strings with all the atrocities perpetrated against Israel, you have to acknowledge that the people who established the State of Israel knew full well they were taking on a violent and fanatically religious enemy. It is only the later generations of Jews who portray Israel as a beacon of democracy. Israel is not a religious state.  Show laws that would define israel as a religious state.  Israel is very much a democracy. Doesn't matter whether it is a democracy or not. Take a look at the flag; know what the Star of David is there for?  Whether they have democratic system of choosing the party that runs the government, it is still a government founded to protect and advance the Jewish religion. If it was not, they could have all stayed home.

Great, so what laws make it specifically jewish religion
?

Flags are symbols. They are important ones, but they do not define the purpose of government. Ours for example is not there to serve Great Britain or the monarchy, despite what is on our flag.

freediver wrote on Dec 20^th, 2015 at 4:54am:

Flags are symbols. They are important ones, but they do not define the purpose of government. Ours for example is not there to serve Great Britain or the monarchy, despite what is on our flag.

the Flag makes us ONE....no party.no religion.no colour.no culture..just a piece of cloth that says we are all the same AUSTRALIAN>..

we recognise where ever we go...its OURS...it represents US...I am proud of it..

I was in the crowd at the Queen of Denmarks birthday celebrations.. they love their Royal family and every year sing Happy Birthday to her...

so off we went... me with my very small Ozzie flag...

it was a sea of red and white.. my little flag stood out...and when Mary and fred and the kids came out  I waved it like mad... I am sure they saw it...as I was close to the front.. I got a lot of smiles from the crowd...

I was very proud to wave it..not sure how my family felt about it though... ::) ::) ::)

I would have some sympathy for the Israelis, except they don't need it ... and they should stop establishing concentration camps then bombing them.

"The data we found show that the urban area around Gaza City, which has an estimated population of three quarters of a million, is far more dense than many global cities. According to Demographia, it is the 40th most densely populated urban area in the world. It is less dense than some major world cities, including Mumbai, Hong Kong and Karachi, but a lot more dense than some others, and its small geographical size and high level of density seem to be unique."

I thought that said 'teaching error'.. I was about to rip the universities and teacher's union and affirmative action and abuse of men teachers as "potential paedophiles"..... over the current lack of sense and even sppeling skkils, let alone 2+2=57..... (Longyathematics for Analysis of Polls that Favour LNP)....

freediver wrote on Dec 20^th, 2015 at 4:54am:

Flags are symbols. They are important ones, but they do not define the purpose of government. Ours for example is not there to serve Great Britain or the monarchy, despite what is on our flag.

Right on - it is the AUSTRALIAN flag.. and changing it is meaningless...  Hawaii still has the Union Jack... as well as being jack of the Union in some ways...

random wrote on Dec 20^th, 2015 at 12:23pm:

I would have some sympathy for the Israelis, except they don't need it ... and they should stop establishing concentration camps then bombing them. "The data we found show that the urban area around Gaza City, which has an estimated population of three quarters of a million, is far more dense than many global cities. According to Demographia, it is the 40th most densely populated urban area in the world. It is less dense than some major world cities, including Mumbai, Hong Kong and Karachi, but a lot more dense than some others, and its small geographical size and high level of density seem to be unique."

They established a concentration camp?  Where do you get this stuff from?

You can't argue with the statistics alevine.

freediver wrote on Dec 20^th, 2015 at 6:42pm:

You can't argue with the statistics alevine.

Depends what story you try to build with the statistics.  But history tells us that the last decade of actions by the Israeli government has been the result of extremism brewing within the Gazza strip.  Like I said and continue to say, people want a stop to the violence need to recognise the only way to move away from right wing politics in Israel is to remove Hamas from the Gazza strip and to stop encouraging suicide bombings and murder of Jewish people. 

Hamas is the people.  If you had been locked in, shot, bombed, burned with white phosphorous, you would hate the Israelis too. 

If the actions you take to fix the problem, make the problem worse ... you have lost.

random wrote on Dec 20^th, 2015 at 7:29pm:

Hamas is the people.  If you had been locked in, shot, bombed, burned with white phosphorous, you would hate the Israelis too.  If the actions you take to fix the problem, make the problem worse ... you have lost.

Oh please, the hamas charter was created in 1988, they started perpetrating and encouraging attacks post oslo accords and it was them who subsequently brought down the peace process and ensured right wing governments in israel.  Its amazing how the soft left apologists continue to always ignore the causes and always seek to stay pc.  Yes, the palestineans in the gaza strip have been economically ruined. Thats what happens when you support terrorists.

The Israelis have already lost.  Yet another chapter of the tragedy.

random wrote on Dec 20^th, 2015 at 7:43pm:

The Israelis have already lost.  Yet another chapter of the tragedy.

Riiiiiight. 

Yep.  They remind me of a medieval fort, a castle, it is only a matter of time before it is breached. 

If you wanted to start a country, politically, this would be the absolutely worst place on earth to do it.  Doomed.

random wrote on Dec 20^th, 2015 at 8:03pm:

Yep.  They remind me of a medieval fort, a castle, it is only a matter of time before it is breached.  If you wanted to start a country, politically, this would be the absolutely worst place on earth to do it.  Doomed.

You should tell that to the Palestinians, they are trying to now.

Abu used to say that Israel's defeat was not merely inevitable, but just around the corner. That's why the Palestinians must never stop the attacks. The destruction of Israel needs to be justified by an ongoing war. If they make peace, they lose their chance. I think it is this mindset that causes the self destructive tendencies of the various Palestinian groups.

Yep, it seems our species has excelled at teaching terror across the world...

We have moved on a little bit now to putting all the blame for this onto one select group.

That's what having adults in charge does apparently.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 20^th, 2015 at 7:06pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 20th, 2015 at 6:42pm: You can't argue with the statistics alevine. Depends what story you try to build with the statistics.  But history tells us that the last decade of actions by the Israeli government has been the result of extremism brewing within the Gazza strip.  Like I said and continue to say, people want a stop to the violence need to recognise the only way to move away from right wing politics in Israel is to remove Hamas from the Gazza strip and to stop encouraging suicide bombings and murder of Jewish people.

Nonsense. The right wing politics in Israel is playing out in their carving and colonising of the West Bank. Hamas has no foothold in the WB, and the Palestinian rulers there have long since rejected violence for achieving their goals. And yet every time the Palestinians  agree to negotiations, the Israelis cynically use it as an opportunity to carve up even more land for the settlements.

The sad reality is, Palestinians rejecting violence has merely emboldened right wing politics in Israel.

freediver wrote on Dec 20^th, 2015 at 8:43pm:

Abu used to say that Israel's defeat was not merely inevitable, but just around the corner. That's why the Palestinians must never stop the attacks. The destruction of Israel needs to be justified by an ongoing war. If they make peace, they lose their chance. I think it is this mindset that causes the self destructive tendencies of the various Palestinian groups.

Would you mind finding a quote? Just curious is all...

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 9:14am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Dec 20th, 2015 at 7:06pm: freediver wrote on Dec 20th, 2015 at 6:42pm: You can't argue with the statistics alevine. Depends what story you try to build with the statistics.  But history tells us that the last decade of actions by the Israeli government has been the result of extremism brewing within the Gazza strip.  Like I said and continue to say, people want a stop to the violence need to recognise the only way to move away from right wing politics in Israel is to remove Hamas from the Gazza strip and to stop encouraging suicide bombings and murder of Jewish people.  Nonsense. The right wing politics in Israel is playing out in their carving and colonising of the West Bank. Hamas has no foothold in the WB, and the Palestinian rulers there have long since rejected violence for achieving their goals. And yet every time the Palestinians  agree to negotiations, the Israelis cynically use it as an opportunity to carve up even more land for the settlements. The sad reality is, Palestinians rejecting violence has merely emboldened right wing politics in Israel.

Sorry gandalf, you misunderstood. Im not saying that a right wing government will deal with any peace deal. No, there is no hope of peace while Netanyahu is PM.  What im saying is the only way to rid any right wing government from israel, for hope of negotiations, is to have israeli people stop feeling threatened by palestinean people.  And that can only happen once terrorism ceases to exist within gaza strip governance.   

Terrorism ceases to exist?  You serious?

So what would you do if you were an 18 year old Palestinian who had grown up in Gaza?  Sit down and play dead?

They have manufactured the next few generations of enemies already.

And what is terrorism anyway?  You mean like the American terrorists who started the War of Independence?

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 9:15am:

freediver wrote on Dec 20th, 2015 at 8:43pm: Abu used to say that Israel's defeat was not merely inevitable, but just around the corner. That's why the Palestinians must never stop the attacks. The destruction of Israel needs to be justified by an ongoing war. If they make peace, they lose their chance. I think it is this mindset that causes the self destructive tendencies of the various Palestinian groups. Would you mind finding a quote? Just curious is all...

Sorry, looks like it was mostly Falah - See, Abu is not the only source of this stuff.


falah wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 12:32pm:

If you don't surrender, you haven't lost. Quote: Falah, what is the difference between refusing to surrender when you have lost so miserably, and not wanting the bloodshed to continue? Do you actually think the Palestinians are on the verge of some kind of victory? It is one thing to sign a peace treaty, another thing to surrender. We have seen what happens to those who made the mistake of surrender History shows us that many wars have looked lost before they swung the other way. It looked like the merciless Crusaders were firmly entrenched in the Palestine when Saladin became leader of Egypt in 1167. 20 years later Saladin had managed to unify the muslims in the region and expel the Christian invaders from Jerusalem. The Crusader occuaption of jerusalem last for 99 years. The Balfour Zionist occupation of Jerusalem has lasted 94 years. In recent years Muslim have freed Sinai, Gaza and southern Lebanon from the Zionist occupation. Since 2000 muslims have managed to force Israel to withdraw from Gaza and southern Lebanon. Full victory is just around the corner by the Grace of God Almighty.

Similar sounding rhetoric from Abu:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1315637372

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:34pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 21st, 2015 at 9:15am: freediver wrote on Dec 20th, 2015 at 8:43pm: Abu used to say that Israel's defeat was not merely inevitable, but just around the corner. That's why the Palestinians must never stop the attacks. The destruction of Israel needs to be justified by an ongoing war. If they make peace, they lose their chance. I think it is this mindset that causes the self destructive tendencies of the various Palestinian groups. Would you mind finding a quote? Just curious is all... Sorry, looks like it was mostly Falah - See, Abu is not the only source of this stuff. falah wrote on May 23rd, 2012 at 12:32pm: If you don't surrender, you haven't lost. Quote: Falah, what is the difference between refusing to surrender when you have lost so miserably, and not wanting the bloodshed to continue? Do you actually think the Palestinians are on the verge of some kind of victory? It is one thing to sign a peace treaty, another thing to surrender. We have seen what happens to those who made the mistake of surrender History shows us that many wars have looked lost before they swung the other way. It looked like the merciless Crusaders were firmly entrenched in the Palestine when Saladin became leader of Egypt in 1167. 20 years later Saladin had managed to unify the muslims in the region and expel the Christian invaders from Jerusalem. The Crusader occuaption of jerusalem last for 99 years. The Balfour Zionist occupation of Jerusalem has lasted 94 years. In recent years Muslim have freed Sinai, Gaza and southern Lebanon from the Zionist occupation. Since 2000 muslims have managed to force Israel to withdraw from Gaza and southern Lebanon. Full victory is just around the corner by the Grace of God Almighty. Similar sounding rhetoric from Abu: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1315637372

Ee-gad, you'd think it would be a piece of cake to find an anti-Israel post from Abu and Falah.

This one talks about liberating occupied Palestine - exactly the same plan as all those UN resolutions.

Why didn't you stick with Abu, FD? There's got to be an anti-Israel post there, shurely.

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:34pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 21st, 2015 at 9:15am: freediver wrote on Dec 20th, 2015 at 8:43pm: Abu used to say that Israel's defeat was not merely inevitable, but just around the corner. That's why the Palestinians must never stop the attacks. The destruction of Israel needs to be justified by an ongoing war. If they make peace, they lose their chance. I think it is this mindset that causes the self destructive tendencies of the various Palestinian groups. Would you mind finding a quote? Just curious is all... Sorry, looks like it was mostly Falah - See, Abu is not the only source of this stuff. falah wrote on May 23rd, 2012 at 12:32pm: If you don't surrender, you haven't lost. Quote: Falah, what is the difference between refusing to surrender when you have lost so miserably, and not wanting the bloodshed to continue? Do you actually think the Palestinians are on the verge of some kind of victory? It is one thing to sign a peace treaty, another thing to surrender. We have seen what happens to those who made the mistake of surrender History shows us that many wars have looked lost before they swung the other way. It looked like the merciless Crusaders were firmly entrenched in the Palestine when Saladin became leader of Egypt in 1167. 20 years later Saladin had managed to unify the muslims in the region and expel the Christian invaders from Jerusalem. The Crusader occuaption of jerusalem last for 99 years. The Balfour Zionist occupation of Jerusalem has lasted 94 years. In recent years Muslim have freed Sinai, Gaza and southern Lebanon from the Zionist occupation. Since 2000 muslims have managed to force Israel to withdraw from Gaza and southern Lebanon. Full victory is just around the corner by the Grace of God Almighty. Similar sounding rhetoric from Abu: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1315637372

Ah, so I'll notch that down as yet another thing that Abu didn't say. Its worthwhile checking these things.

Anyway, its a pretty bad example to use. Falah is clearly referring to war only in the context of reclaiming Palestinian land that Israel currently occupies - ie the West Bank. Your baseless claim that he is calling for the destruction of Israel is clearly refuted in subsequent comments:


Quote:

I believe Israelis can live as good neighbours as soon as they get off stolen Palestinian land.

Quote:

The Israelis can end the violence now by giving the Palestinians their land back. It is simple.

random wrote on Dec 20^th, 2015 at 7:29pm:

Hamas is the people.  If you had been locked in, shot, bombed, burned with white phosphorous, you would hate the Israelis too.  If the actions you take to fix the problem, make the problem worse ... you have lost.

.. and if you'd been locked in, shot, bombed, rocketed, mortared and your border villages massacred, you would hate the Palestinians, too.

Quote:

Falah is clearly referring to war only in the context of reclaiming Palestinian land that Israel currently occupies - ie the West Bank.

Where is this made clear? They guy thinks that the Palestinians are about to have a military victory over Israel - beat them at war. He thinks Israel withdrawing from those patches is a sign of the tide turning in an ongoing war. He sees rocket and terrorist attacks as 'not surrendering' and warns against surrendering.

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:06am:

Where is this made clear? They guy thinks that the Palestinians are about to have a military victory over Israel - beat them at war. He thinks Israel withdrawing from those patches is a sign of the tide turning in an ongoing war. He sees rocket and terrorist attacks as 'not surrendering' and warns against surrendering.

Nothing he says indicates he thinks this war entails the destruction of the state of Israel. In fact he infers the opposite by specifying that Israel could be a viable neighbour of Palestine.

So somehow you managed to go from never surrender and "Full victory is just around the corner by the Grace of God Almighty" to Falah supporting Israel's right to exist?

Tell me Gandalf, what you you think Hitler meant by the final solution?

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:38am:

So somehow you managed to go from never surrender and "Full victory is just around the corner by the Grace of God Almighty" to Falah supporting Israel's right to exist?

Sure - until you can show me exactly where falah equates "full victory [etc]" with destroying the Israeli state.

How do you explain his insistence that Israel could be "good neighbours"?

Quote:

How do you explain his insistence that Israel could be "good neighbours"?

I do not recall him ever saying that. I think he is the one who suggested Jews might be permitted to remain behind (and live as 'good neighbours' - ie obedient, paying the Jizya etc) in an Islamic State. Or maybe he was the one who suggested they go back to Europe where they all came from.

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 1:49pm:

I do not recall him ever saying that.

I just gave you the quote.


freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 1:49pm:

I think he is the one who suggested Jews might be permitted to remain behind (and live as 'good neighbours' - ie obedient, paying the Jizya etc) in an Islamic State. Or maybe he was the one who suggested they go back to Europe where they all came from.

Yeah maybe. If in doubt - just invent some crap like you always do with Abu and me.

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:38am:

So somehow you managed to go from never surrender and "Full victory is just around the corner by the Grace of God Almighty" to Falah supporting Israel's right to exist? Tell me Gandalf, what you you think Hitler meant by the final solution?

No nation, including Israel, Palestine, the USA or Australia has the right to exist. Rights are reserved only for individuals. States exist only through their ability to use military force to defend their declared territories and borders, their ability to have treaties with other nations and engage in trade.

This nonsense about a State's right to exist is a new invention.

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 3:17pm:

random wrote on Dec 20th, 2015 at 7:29pm: Hamas is the people.  If you had been locked in, shot, bombed, burned with white phosphorous, you would hate the Israelis too.  If the actions you take to fix the problem, make the problem worse ... you have lost. .. and if you'd been locked in, shot, bombed, rocketed, mortared and your border villages massacred, you would hate the Palestinians, too.

Yep that's wat i sed.  The issies have already lost.

Lafayette wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 4:50pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 11:38am: So somehow you managed to go from never surrender and "Full victory is just around the corner by the Grace of God Almighty" to Falah supporting Israel's right to exist? Tell me Gandalf, what you you think Hitler meant by the final solution? No nation, including Israel, Palestine, the USA or Australia has the right to exist. Rights are reserved only for individuals. States exist only through their ability to use military force to defend their declared territories and borders, their ability to have treaties with other nations and engage in trade. This nonsense about a State's right to exist is a new invention.

Good point.

Also, funny how those so concerned about state's right to exist never whinge about Israel's refusal to recongise the right of the Palestinian state to exist.

Netanyahu before the last election:


Quote:

"Whoever moves to establish a Palestinian state or intends to withdraw from territory is simply yielding territory for radical Islamic terrorist attacks against Israel," he told the Israeli news site NRG. Asked if that meant a state would not be established if he remained prime minister, he said: "Indeed."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-election-idUSKBN0MC1I820150316

Lafayette wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 4:50pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 11:38am: So somehow you managed to go from never surrender and "Full victory is just around the corner by the Grace of God Almighty" to Falah supporting Israel's right to exist? Tell me Gandalf, what you you think Hitler meant by the final solution? No nation, including Israel, Palestine, the USA or Australia has the right to exist. Rights are reserved only for individuals. States exist only through their ability to use military force to defend their declared territories and borders, their ability to have treaties with other nations and engage in trade. This nonsense about a State's right to exist is a new invention.

American Indians and Aborigines everywhere will be very glad to hear that - no First Nations nonsense after all. And also all that post-colonial hooey the Africans, Indians, Arabs, Asians have been peddling for decades - all swept aside. Thanks!

You are a great student of Stalin, aren't you?
When told the Pope thought Stalin should stop repressing Catholics under his yoke, Stalin famously asked, "The Pope? How many divisions has he got?"


Tell us, BTW, from where do individuals derive their rights? Divine providence? Military force?

Soren wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 5:17pm:

American Indians and Aborigines everywhere will be very glad to hear that - no First Nations nonsense after all. And also all that post-colonial hooey the Africans, Indians, Arabs, Asians have been peddling for decades - all swept aside. Thanks! You are a great student of Stalin, aren't you? When told the Pope thought Stalin should stop repressing Catholics under his yoke, Stalin famously asked, "The Pope? How many divisions has he got?"

I could care less about indigenous peoples wanting their lands back. Conquest is conquest. If you have a problem with it then you're very welcome to piss off back to England or wherever your ancestors are from.

The only problem that I have is when one party makes a treaty with the other in bad faith and then breaks it. That is dishonorable. 


Soren wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 5:17pm:

Tell us, BTW, from where do individuals derive their rights? Divine providence? Military force?

Individuals are born with their rights. They are inalienable.

Lafayette wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 5:57pm:

Individuals are born with their rights. They are inalienable.

How can you tell? Where are their rights located?
Why aren't their right the same across the world?

Soren wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:17pm:

How can you tell? Where are their rights located? Why aren't their right the same across the world?

This is what I meant by Australians not knowing anything about what rights are..

Every individual person in the world has the same rights as every other individual person in the world.

Lafayette wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:31pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 6:17pm: How can you tell? Where are their rights located? Why aren't their right the same across the world? This is what I meant by Australians not knowing anything about what rights are.. Every individual person in the world has the same rights as every other individual person in the world.

That is not something your average Arab, Chinese, Paki, Indian, African etc claims to be his own view.


And what does this bit mean: "Australians not knowing anything about what rights are"?? Which nation knows more about what rights mean?

Your nation? What IS your nation?

Lafayette wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:31pm:

Every individual person in the world has the same rights as every other individual person in the world.

Not in Muslim countries.

What went wrong there? Islam? Something else?

Soren wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:38pm:

That is not something your average Arab, Chinese, Paki, Indian, African etc claims to be his own view. And what does this bit mean: "Australians not knowing anything about what rights are"?? Which nation knows more about what rights mean? Your nation? What IS your nation? ----- Not in Muslim countries. What went wrong there? Islam? Something else?

See, this is the problem, Soren. Rights are inalienable. Every person is born with them and they cannot be taken away from you.

Now, a government may not recognize your rights but that doesn't mean that those rights are not there, it only means that those rights are being infringed upon.

The problem with Australians is that they believe that rights are actually privileges and that the government, perhaps with the will of the overwhelming majority of people can infringe on those rights and stop people from exercising them.

The truth is however that those rights are still there, the unfortunate thing though is that Australians don't really understand them and won't to stand up to defend them because Australians have been handed everything on a platter. They didn't have to fight a revolution to no longer be a colony and you're still a part of the British Commonwealth despite the fact that in the 70's the Queen's representative, the Governor General sacked the democratically elected government.

As for my nation. I was born and raised in Australia but I consider the US, where I now reside to be my nation and I'd gladly die defending its system of government.

Isn't it a little contradictory to talk of inalienable rights - but at the same time blame certain people for losing those rights?

You're basically saying its Australian's fault that they don't have their rights anymore - which is really no different to saying they forfeited those rights. In which case, how can they still be inalienable?

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 4:30pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 1:49pm: I do not recall him ever saying that. I just gave you the quote. freediver wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 1:49pm: I think he is the one who suggested Jews might be permitted to remain behind (and live as 'good neighbours' - ie obedient, paying the Jizya etc) in an Islamic State. Or maybe he was the one who suggested they go back to Europe where they all came from. Yeah maybe. If in doubt - just invent some crap like you always do with Abu and me.

Which quote Gandalf? Please highlight the relevant bit for me.


Quote:

The only problem that I have is when one party makes a treaty with the other in bad faith and then breaks it. That is dishonorable.

Do you support the Palestinians refusal to surrender and efforts to maintain hostilities as the more honourable path?


Quote:

The truth is however that those rights are still there, the unfortunate thing though is that Australians don't really understand them and won't to stand up to defend them because Australians have been handed everything on a platter. They didn't have to fight a revolution to no longer be a colony and you're still a part of the British Commonwealth despite the fact that in the 70's the Queen's representative, the Governor General sacked the democratically elected government.

I think Australians have a better understanding because Americans tend to confuse rights for what is written into the constitution. You say our rights were handed to us on a platter. Your thoughts are handed to you on a centuries old piece of paper, and you regurgitate them on command. NRA propaganda is a classic example of people trying to misrepresent rights.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 25^th, 2015 at 3:29pm:

Isn't it a little contradictory to talk of inalienable rights - but at the same time blame certain people for losing those rights? You're basically saying its Australian's fault that they don't have their rights anymore - which is really no different to saying they forfeited those rights. In which case, how can they still be inalienable?

I'm not blaming Australians for losing their rights, because  you can never lose your rights except under punishment for a serious crime.

But what makes it worse is that Australians in general don't know what rights are and think that the majority have the right to vote and take rights away from the minority. They treat rights as if they can just be done away with.

That sickens me and was one of the reasons why I left.

freediver wrote on Dec 25^th, 2015 at 10:05pm:

Which quote Gandalf? Please highlight the relevant bit for me.

reply #43 - Israel can live as good neighbours - by falah.

That's not what it says Gandalf. You should have figured this out when your attempt to paraphrase it had such awkward grammar.

Do you feel obliged to put a positive spin on the hate filled rants of fellow Muslims?

Human rights is a concept based on the Jewish and Christian doctrines that say that there is no social rank before god, no difference between slave and free, man and woman. From this comes the idea of equality before worldly the law (as above, so below) and from that comes equality (universality) of basic human rights equality before both worldly law and divine law wherever you are on this earth.

But there is no such equality in Islam, neither before god nor before worldly law and so the universality of equality before law because of the universality of equal human rights is also a strange concept for them.  There is no recognition of the equality of the infidel and the Muslim, or the equality of men and women because they are not equal before Allah and so they cannot be equal before sharia law.