https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/30466191/austrian-teenage-girls-used-as-islamic-state-sex-slaves-before-brutal-murders/

Islamic State fighters used an Austrian teenager as sex slaves and a ‘gift’ for fighters before brutally murdering her with a hammer, according to new reports.

British newspaper The Sun reports Samra Kesinovic, 17, was kept in a house and used as ‘gifts’ for jihadists after they fleeing her home country with 16-year-old Sabina Selimovic to join the group.

The information reportedly comes via a Tunisian woman who says she was kept in the same house as Kesinovic.

She said the teenage was forced into sexual acts with fighters and tried to flee her captors several times before she was killed.

After her final escape attempt, Kesinovic was reportedly so badly injured with a hammer that she died.

Earlier reports suggest Sabina Selimovic may have met a similar fate.

Austria’s foreign ministry has not confirmed the reports.

The news comes as it is revealed Islamic State has a special set of rules on the treatment of its female captives.

Reuters reports a document obtained by the US government spells out that fighters cannot have sex with their captives if they are menstruating or pregnant, or if they have had sex with the daughter of their captive.

Men are forbidden from having sex with captives if they have ‘given them away’ to their sons, or if they ‘own’ them jointly with another man.

Men are also not allowed to have sex with slaves owned by their wives, according to the document.

Kesinovic and Selimovic were initially used as ‘poster girls’ for the terrorist group after they travelled to Syria after being brainwashed by a radical preacher in Vienna.

The two teens were shown wearing Islamic headbands and brandishing Kalashnikov rifles surrounded by masked male jihadists in what looks like an ISIS recruitment image.

Reports of the girls' whereabouts have been circulating since earlier in the year, with the Unites Nations reporting they received information that one of them had died.

“We received information just recently about two 15-year-old girls, of Bosnian origin, who left Austria,” Scharia said.

“Both were recruited by Islamic State. One was killed in the fighting in Syria, the other has disappeared,” reports now propose this explains Samra’s disappearance.

Reports now suggest that both Austrian women are now believed to be dead.

The teenagers families reported the two girls missing after they disappeared from Vienna last year, allegedly leaving a note which read:

“Don’t look for us. We will serve Allah and we will die for him.”

The girls allegedly flew to the Turkish capital Ankara and then into the southern Turkish region of Adana.

After that, their tracks were lost.

I sound cold - but anyone who join ISIS is deliberately placing themselves in danger

The only way she was going to help ISIS was with both legs in the air

The lefties will say

(1) What about her parents
(2) What about her family
(3) She was a stupid kid and didn't deserve it

At what stage do you admit that she deserved it!!!

Did she know she was going to be raped repeatedly? I think so!!

I made a lot of mistakes when I was 17. many of them potentially life threatening and altering. Rest in peace Samra Kesinovic.

Yes it was a stupid thing to do  but a kid of 17 is still a kid, they have frontal lobes not even fully formed at that age.  As kids we all make/made mistakes- RIP to the poor little soul.

Maqqa wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 1:08am:

I sound cold - but anyone who join ISIS is deliberately placing themselves in danger The only way she was going to help ISIS was with both legs in the air The lefties will say (1) What about her parents (2) What about her family (3) She was a stupid kid and didn't deserve it At what stage do you admit that she deserved it!!! Did she know she was going to be raped repeatedly? I think so!!

They were 2 kids!!

Maqqa wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 1:08am:

I sound cold - but anyone who join ISIS is deliberately placing themselves in danger The only way she was going to help ISIS was with both legs in the air The lefties will say (1) What about her parents (2) What about her family (3) She was a stupid kid and didn't deserve it At what stage do you admit that she deserved it!!! Did she know she was going to be raped repeatedly? I think so!!

"cold" doesn't even begin to describe the way you sound. she was a child, not an adult.

Agree with AiA.
This was a child those barbarians killed.

Maqqa wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 1:08am:

I sound cold - but anyone who join ISIS is deliberately placing themselves in danger.

Allow me to edit that slightly: "... anyone who joins ISIS is deliberately placing innocent people in danger of him or her self".

These Bosnian Muslim girls knew perfectly well what the ISIS barbarians were doing to their victims - the beheadings, etc ... because video-clips of these horrors have been on the news services ever since it first began.

They knew exactly what sort of psychopathic lunatics they were hoping to give assistance to - with an approving and comradely smile on their faces.

These were evil bitches of the very highest order.

I'm glad they fell foul of the very same monsters whom they had admired so much for their cruel behaviour. These were the sort of girls who would have relished being jackbooted guards at Ravensbruck, Treblinka, Buchenwald, and Belsen.

I'm glad they got raped out of their minds and then killed by a lunatic running after them with a hammer.

I'm on the side of those American and British soldiers who stood idly by and did nothing while some of the concentration camps' worst offenders were set upon and brutally killed with shovels and the like by those liberated prisoners in their striped pajamas who still had the energy to personally exact revenge upon those bastards. 

 

ian wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 1:12am:

I made a lot of mistakes when I was 17. many of them potentially life threatening and altering. Rest in peace Samra Kesinovic.

;D ;D ;D

A 'mistake' is 2+2=5

She knew exactly what she was doing - going off to help some psychopathic monsters dish out every kind of cruelty to innocent people.

Where she failed to understand the full picture was that she was not going to be greeted by these ISIS men as a 'comrade-in-arms' who had equal status with them. That was the one misunderstanding that cost her her life.

They wanted her there to serve their needs - not her own, and when she baulked at this 'inequality' they resorted to teaching her that in Islam a woman's place is either on her back or in the kitchen - or obeying her husband implicitly.

May she rot in Hell.

AiA wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 3:49am:

Maqqa wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 1:08am: I sound cold - but anyone who join ISIS is deliberately placing themselves in danger The only way she was going to help ISIS was with both legs in the air The lefties will say (1) What about her parents (2) What about her family (3) She was a stupid kid and didn't deserve it At what stage do you admit that she deserved it!!! Did she know she was going to be raped repeatedly? I think so!! "cold" doesn't even begin to describe the way you sound. she was a child, not an adult.

come on macca is that what you would say to your 17 yr old that found themselves in dire straights....???? >:( >:(

at 17 I was going to save the world... what from I wouldnt know... all I know is.. as a missionary I would have saved youse all..

todays 17 year olds are even more naive than we were.. they live through facebook...at 17 I had been working fulltime for two years....today they are still in school...


I guess some folks have forgotten what its like to be a teenager..

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 4:39am:

Agree with AiA. This was a child those barbarians killed.

and yet the luvvies are tripping over themselves to bring them to this country..

then they are surprised by their deplorable behaviour when they get here..  ::)

why do you think that its mainly men who turn up at our doorstep???

they've already raped, bashed, stoned and beheaded their women folk...

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 6:11am:

ian wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 1:12am: I made a lot of mistakes when I was 17. many of them potentially life threatening and altering. Rest in peace Samra Kesinovic. ;D ;D ;D A 'mistake' is 2+2=5 She knew exactly what she was doing - going off to help some psychopathic monsters dish out every kind of cruelty to innocent people. Where she failed to understand the full picture was that she was not going to be greeted by these ISIS men as a 'comrade-in-arms' who had equal status with them. That was the one misunderstanding that cost her her life. They wanted her there to serve their needs - not her own, and when she baulked at this 'inequality' they resorted to teaching her that in Islam a woman's place is either on her back or in the kitchen - or obeying her husband implicitly. May she rot in Hell.

what a terrible thing to say...

next time i read where you are complaining about someone trolling you or abusing you I will remind you of that comment....absolutely disgusting.. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 4:39am:

Agree with AiA. This was a child those barbarians killed.

Utter apologist nonsense.

If she had come from an impoverished and Third World backgroind where there were no TVs or radios or any of the sophisticated communication technologies of a 21st century First World nation like Austria - then yes, you could say she was retarded and made ignorant by the paucity of her environment.

But here we had a clued-up 16 year old who was surrounded by modern day information technology that fed her 24/7 with high definition footage of beheadings and mass executions for months and years.

She knew perfectly well that that's what she wanted to go and be a part of.

 

cods wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 6:25am:

what a terrible thing to say... next time i read where you are complaining about someone trolling you or abusing you I will remind you of that comment....absolutely disgusting.. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Oh no ... cods has arrived.

Have you ever lived next to a survivor of Ravensbruck? Have you ever worked with an old Pole who survived three years in Buchenwald? Knew a fellow who was a guard at Dachau after the war where they kept the captured SS officers?

Forgive and forget not.

May she rot in hell for the misery she was prepared for others to suffer in the cause of the 'House Cleaning' that ISIS was and still is embarked upon to clear the groundwork for their caliphate.

cods wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 6:22am:

I guess some folks have forgotten what its like to be a teenager..

;D ;D ;D

At 16 I knew the difference between sh*t and clay - just like this Muslim girl did.

At 16 I would never have wished to join Hitler's Einsatzgruppen any more than I would be joining ISIS today.

May she rot in Hell!

its an ugly story but at no age is a decision like they made anything other than inexcusably stupid.

she didnt deserve her end. no one does.  but she was a major contributor to it.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 7:22am:

she didnt deserve her end. no one does ...

Amazing. Simply amazing.

Agnes wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 1:23am:

Yes it was a stupid thing to do  but a kid of 17 is still a kid, they have frontal lobes not even fully formed at that age.  As kids we all make/made mistakes- RIP to the poor little soul.

Agreed. She obviously didn't know what she was getting into or she wouldn't have tried to escape so many times.

Who knows what these recruitment videos promise young people?

Anyone wishing her end on her is every bit the monster that the pigs who raped and killed her are.

Deserve it? Disgusting.

mothra wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 7:39am:

Agnes wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 1:23am: Yes it was a stupid thing to do  but a kid of 17 is still a kid, they have frontal lobes not even fully formed at that age.  As kids we all make/made mistakes- RIP to the poor little soul. Agreed. She obviously didn't know what she was getting into or she wouldn't have tried to escape so many times. Who knows what these recruitment videos promise young people? Anyone wishing her end on her is every bit the monster that the pigs who raped and killed her are. Deserve it? Disgusting.

with all the information out there about ISIS how is anyone so irredeemably stupid as to join them - especially teenage girls?

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 7:42am:

mothra wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 7:39am: Agnes wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 1:23am: Yes it was a stupid thing to do  but a kid of 17 is still a kid, they have frontal lobes not even fully formed at that age.  As kids we all make/made mistakes- RIP to the poor little soul. Agreed. She obviously didn't know what she was getting into or she wouldn't have tried to escape so many times. Who knows what these recruitment videos promise young people? Anyone wishing her end on her is every bit the monster that the pigs who raped and killed her are. Deserve it? Disgusting. with all the information out there about ISIS how is anyone so irredeemably stupid as to join them - especially teenage girls?

We don't know what the recruitment videos promised her. I suspect she was seduced by a very charming individual who promised her a great deal. She probably fell in love with him.

A stupid mistake but one that does not translate into her 'deserving' her end ... which is the premise of this thread and the argument of Herbie and Maqqa.

I have more sympathy for the little innocents which this girl must have known where being tortured and raped by her DAESH friends before she decided to join them, but later tired of her and decided to murder her. They didn’t knowingly involve themselves with these luatics, she did.

As they said:

“Don’t look for us. We will serve Allah and we will die for him.”

Seventeen year olds may act rashly at times but they are not children and if they can read, they know what these people do.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 7:22am:

its an ugly story but at no age is a decision like they made anything other than inexcusably stupid.

Inexcusably evil.

High Definition footage of the ISIS horrors have been in the media daily - and you can bet your house they had access to the internet in their own home in Austria ... with a lot more gory details than is shown on the TV news services.

Hopefully this bitch and all those others who think it's cute to deliver sadistic horrors to innocent people will rot in hell.

mothra wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 7:39am:

Agreed. She obviously didn't know what she was getting into or she wouldn't have tried to escape so many times.

Ignorant nonsense.

She said she was willing to die for Allah. What part of that don't you understand?

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 8:48am:

mothra wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 7:39am: Agreed. She obviously didn't know what she was getting into or she wouldn't have tried to escape so many times. Ignorant nonsense. She said she was willing to die for Allah. What part of that don't you understand?

Then why did she try to escape s many times Herbie?

17 years old is still a child.
Impressionable and vulnerable Herb.

This people are pigs and cowards. These girls deserved none of that.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 8:57am:

17 years old is still a child. Impressionable and vulnerable Herb. This people are pigs and cowards. These girls deserved none of that.

You got that right. The sooner they are discussing semantics of theology with Allah the better.  Mind you - our 'allies' the Saudis aren't a whole lot better:-

https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/30475576/saudi-arabia-executes-47-including-cleric/

Pair of young girls seeking to 'find a place' in life.... 'be' someone (Tracey Chapman).. feel a sense of belonging... be part of something bigger than self..... 'find validation'....

Better to wait at home in Austria for a nice man to come along..... boring but better....

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 8:57am:

17 years old is still a child. Impressionable and vulnerable Herb. This people are pigs and cowards. These girls deserved none of that.

A teenager was exploited and used by ISIS before she was brutally murdered by them.

It's very good for other teenagers to see what is really going on.

Hopefully this incident will wake others up.

Maqqa wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 1:05am:

“Don’t look for us. We will serve Allah and we will die for him.” The girls allegedly flew to the Turkish capital Ankara and then into the southern Turkish region of Adana. After that, their tracks were lost.

What's the problem ?

They served Allah and died for it !!

Two less muslim halfwits the world does not need :(

I was actually chatting about the Sauds with my uncle over holiday period you know.
I've always been of the view that they were a horrible regime and we need them gone.

My uncle, whose lived out in the region for decades now, made the valid point of better the devil you know.
Look what's happened to Iraq post Saddam, Libya posts Gaddafi.
Egypt has only returned to order after Mubarak because General Sisi has clamped down.

He believes democracy isn't suited to these countries and the rule of fist is better suited.

I think he's probably right. As unpleasant as the House of Saud is, they keep order.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 8:57am:

17 years old is still a child. Impressionable and vulnerable Herb. This people are pigs and cowards. These girls deserved none of that.

ISIS is a product of your ilk hicks. The insatiable greed for oil has created this monster in the middle east and now you are pretending like you weren't part of it !!

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 6:46am:

cods wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 6:22am: I guess some folks have forgotten what its like to be a teenager.. ;D ;D ;D At 16 I knew the difference between sh*t and clay

Yet you don't now.

What happened, Lord Herpes - dementia?

mothra wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 7:39am:

She obviously didn't know what she was getting into ...

Obviously?

Everybody else in the Western world who has a television set has known only too well from very graphic footage exactly what was going on over there.

mothra wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 8:50am:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 8:48am: mothra wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 7:39am: Agreed. She obviously didn't know what she was getting into or she wouldn't have tried to escape so many times. Ignorant nonsense. She said she was willing to die for Allah. What part of that don't you understand? Then why did she try to escape s many times Herbie?

I've already explained that at length in my above post.

I don't care how they do it. They can bulldoze them into the sand for all I care, but these Daesh thugs need to be obliterated from the face of the Earth.

John_Taverner wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:15am:

I don't care how they do it. They can bulldoze them into the sand for all I care, but these Daesh thugs need to be obliterated from the face of the Earth.

Hear hear!

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:14am:

mothra wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 8:50am: Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 8:48am: mothra wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 7:39am: Agreed. She obviously didn't know what she was getting into or she wouldn't have tried to escape so many times. Ignorant nonsense. She said she was willing to die for Allah. What part of that don't you understand? Then why did she try to escape s many times Herbie? I've already explained that at length in my above post.

No. You haven't.

The only logical conclusion is that what she got isn't what she was expecting.

A female at 17 years and 363 days is considered a child

A female at 18 years and 1 day is considered as an adult

Are we suggesting within those few days a switch suddenly came on?

Sound parenting plays a major role in the transition between adulthood and childhood.

I am not blaming her parents, but a 16 years old didn't just decide overnight to run to the ISIS cause

This takes grooming and grooming takes a significant period of time.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 8:57am:

17 years old is still a child. Impressionable and vulnerable Herb.

A 17 year old girl is no longer a 'child'. Many smart girls enter university only a year later.

She knew exactly what she was looking at on the television news services and on the internet when Yazidis were being chased and hounded and raped.

And then the Americans having their throats cut by that London Arab.

And strings of people being led off into the desert to be shot.

And the rest.

Tell me how she filtered out these horrors from her 'understanding' of what to expect over there, and what sort of people these were?

She fell foul of these people ONLY when she found herself becoming a focus of 'interest' from the pigs around her.

For as long as it was OTHERS receiving their monstrous attentions in the name of 'Allah' and the creation of a caliphate - she was okay with that.


I think what I'm experiencing here is a generation gap with you younger ones. You've grown up in a Modern Day school system in which namby-pamby ideas of 'tolerance, and forgiveness, and political correctness, and the 'customer is always right' bullshit is the prevailing ethic. 

Maqqa wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:28am:

A female at 17 years and 363 days is considered a child A female at 18 years and 1 day is considered as an adult Are we suggesting within those few days a switch suddenly came on? Sound parenting plays a major role in the transition between adulthood and childhood. I am not blaming her parents, but a 16 years old didn't just decide overnight to run to the ISIS cause This takes grooming and grooming takes a significant period of time.

Correct.

And sorry - but the parents should be held criminally responsible for not having supervised their daughter more carefully.

Ignorance is no excuse before the law.

Austria
Age of consent - 16
Legal drinking age - 16

Maqqa wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:28am:

A female at 17 years and 363 days is considered a child A female at 18 years and 1 day is considered as an adult Are we suggesting within those few days a switch suddenly came on? Sound parenting plays a major role in the transition between adulthood and childhood. I am not blaming her parents, but a 16 years old didn't just decide overnight to run to the ISIS cause This takes grooming and grooming takes a significant period of time.

I don't have a 17 yr old daughter anymore. She's 19 yrs old now. As such, she is technically an adult at law.....but believe you me, even at 19, and even though she's a clever uni student, she's just a kid. Why? She's very trusting and innocent.  She lacks worldly experience. (She still cuddles up to her fav teddy bear at night).

As a mum, I oversee her every move online like a hawk....and I make sure I know her every move each day. Why? She's vulnerable, I love her heaps...and I don't trust the many dheads out there ...esp in cyberspace.

It's a tough gig being a parent. From the get go, your kids will need to be watched over and cared for. As they get older, you discover that things get trickier. It's a never ending learning curve.

Right now, my heart goes out to the poor mums of these 17yr old girls. They're going through hell.

It's impt that other girls see what has happened. Sometimes it takes a deadly lesson to drive a point home.

Maqqa wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:45am:

Austria Age of consent - 16 Legal drinking age - 16

AUSTRIA

You are considered as a minor, If you haven´t completed your 18th birthday (§ 21 para 2 Civil Code).

According to the law for the protection of the youth of the states Steiermark, Kärnten, Tirol and Vorarlberg, person are children up to 14 years of age. Person from the age of 14 up to 18 years of age are considered as young people.

The law for the protection of the youth of the state Oberösterreich determine all person up to 18 years of age as young people.
The law for the protection of the youth of the states Wien, Niederösterreich and Burgenland is using “young people” up to 18 years of age instead of saying children or young person.
You become a major with 18 years.

This is semantics though Maqqa.
They are impressionable teenage girls who in no way "deserved" to be raped and killed with a hammer by these barbarians.

mothra wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:23am:

The only logical conclusion is that what she got isn't what she was expecting.

I've already explained the one small element that she may have been in ignorance of, although how, I can't imagine.

The error she made was in thinking she would be greeted as an equal. 

Everything in Islam screams out that women are secondary to the menfolk - and it's not a gender democracy in a great many Muslim households that stick with tradition.

Fathers and sons are the top bananas in many traditional Muslim households - with the daughter always at risk of a beating from her brothers.

How she failed to understand this at age 17 is quite frankly unbelievable. Her apologists may grab at this straw, but it won't float in any serious debate on a television panel or a university stage.

 

Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:49am:

I don't have a 17 yr old daughter anymore. She's 19 yrs old now. As such, she is technically an adult at law.....but believe you me, evenat 19 she's just a kid. Why? She's very trusting and innocent. (She still cuddles up to her fav teddy bear at night). As a mum, I oversee her every move online like a hawk....and I make sure I know her every move each day. Why? She's vulnerable, I love her heaps...and I don't trust the many dheads out there ...esp in cyberspace. It's a tough gig being a parent. From the get go, your kids will need to be watched over and cared for. As they get older, you discover that things get trickier. It's a never ending learning curve. Right now, my heart goes out to the poor mums of these 17yr old girls. They're going through hell. Anyway.....it's impt that other girls see what has happened. Sometimes it takes a deadly lesson to drive a point home.

You're too soft hearted LJ

I am the cold hearted bustard

But you've raised both sides of the argument here
(1) Emotional fallout of the event
(2) Deadly lesson of the event

Oft times our politically correct society focus too much the the emotional fallout and forget the lesson

I'm not happy with you today Herb.

Why?

You're posting utter nonsense....and to make matters worse, you're showing me just how ignorant you are.

Kindly pull your head in. Thank you. >:(

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:52am:

This is semantics though Maqqa. They are impressionable teenage girls who in no way "deserved" to be raped and killed with a hammer by these barbarians.

It was a clear case of the girl being hoisted upon her own petard.

What she wished for others was done to her.

Ask any of the hundreds of Yazidi girls who have been sex slaves to the unwashed ISIS pigs how they feel about this Muslim girl leaving her home in Austria to go give moral and physical support to their persecutors.

Things soured for her ONLY when she herself became the victim of their demonic attentions.

AND THAT's the last I'm saying on the subject. I've been banging on long enough like a Voice in the Wilderness with you lot.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:52am:

This is semantics though Maqqa. They are impressionable teenage girls who in no way "deserved" to be raped and killed with a hammer by these barbarians.

Action and consequences andrei

It's like the Bali 9 executions

Or the 47 Shi'ite that was beheaded by the Saudis in the last few days

Political correctness says no one deserve punishment

Certainly I agree that the method is abhorrent and I would not like it to happen to my child.

But I have to accept that she made the decision and paid with her life. This is the price of stepping up the the edge of the volcano

Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 10:00am:

I'm not happy with you today Herb. Why? You're posting utter nonsense....and to make matters worse, you're showing me just how ignorant you are. Kindly pull your head in. Thank you. >:(

HERBERT HAS LEFT THE BUILDING

Please leave a message on his Answering Machine after the sound of the pips. Thank You.

.... pip .... pip .... pip

Maqqa wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:57am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 9:49am: I don't have a 17 yr old daughter anymore. She's 19 yrs old now. As such, she is technically an adult at law.....but believe you me, even at 19 she's just a kid. Why? She's very trusting and innocent. (She still cuddles up to her fav teddy bear at night). As a mum, I oversee her every move online like a hawk....and I make sure I know her every move each day. Why? She's vulnerable, I love her heaps...and I don't trust the many dheads out there ...esp in cyberspace. It's a tough gig being a parent. From the get go, your kids will need to be watched over and cared for. As they get older, you discover that things get trickier. It's a never ending learning curve. Right now, my heart goes out to the poor mums of these 17yr old girls. They're going through hell. It's impt that other girls see what has happened. Sometimes it takes a deadly lesson to drive a point home. You're too soft hearted LJ. I am the cold hearted bastard. But you've raised both sides of the argument here. (1) Emotional fallout of the event (2) Deadly lesson of the event Oft times our politically correct society focuses too much on the emotional fallout and forgets the lesson.

Ahhh...wait til you become a parent Maqqa. Esp if that child is a girl.

You too will discover just what a soft touch you really are.

^^^^ Same applies to Herb.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:52am:

This is semantics though Maqqa. They are impressionable teenage girls who in no way "deserved" to be raped and killed with a hammer by these barbarians.

And yet they only had to do a few searches on google to find out about ISIS and anyone with half a brain would have avoided it like the plague !! Looks like those two didn't even have half a brain !!

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 10:14am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 9:52am: This is semantics though Maqqa. They are impressionable teenage girls who in no way "deserved" to be raped and killed with a hammer by these barbarians. And yet they only had to do a few searches on google to find out about ISIS and anyone with half a brain would have avoided it like the plague !! Looks like those two didn't even have half a brain !!

I see. So intellectually retarded 17 year olds deserve everything they get. That will learn them.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:52am:

This is semantics though Maqqa. They are impressionable teenage girls who in no way "deserved" to be raped and killed with a hammer by these barbarians.

What if she had a Kalashnikov and was shooting Israelis?  How would you describe her then?

Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 10:00am:

I'm not happy with you today Herb. Why? You're posting utter nonsense....and to make matters worse, you're showing me just how ignorant you are. Kindly pull your head in. Thank you. >:(

Lord Herpes is doing what he does best - trolling.

Ignore the POS.

ian wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 10:17am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:14am: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 9:52am: This is semantics though Maqqa. They are impressionable teenage girls who in no way "deserved" to be raped and killed with a hammer by these barbarians. And yet they only had to do a few searches on google to find out about ISIS and anyone with half a brain would have avoided it like the plague !! Looks like those two didn't even have half a brain !! I see. So intellectually retarded 17 year olds deserve everything they get. That will learn them.

Who said they were intellectually retarded ? Now you are just making up stuff.

I take it they had enough intellect not to eat rat poison ?

Aussie wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 10:21am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 9:52am: This is semantics though Maqqa. They are impressionable teenage girls who in no way "deserved" to be raped and killed with a hammer by these barbarians. What if she had a Kalashnikov and was shooting Israelis?  How would you describe her then?

what if she was on the internet being groomed by some dirty old man in his 50s.....which we see every day....

the internet is a brainwashing machine...

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 10:27am:

ian wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:17am: Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:14am: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 9:52am: This is semantics though Maqqa. They are impressionable teenage girls who in no way "deserved" to be raped and killed with a hammer by these barbarians. And yet they only had to do a few searches on google to find out about ISIS and anyone with half a brain would have avoided it like the plague !! Looks like those two didn't even have half a brain !! I see. So intellectually retarded 17 year olds deserve everything they get. That will learn them. Who said they were intellectually retarded ? Now you are just making up stuff. I take it they had enough intellect not to eat rat poison ?

So you are saying they werent dumb?

Stupidity
Knowing the act/event is wrong and continue to do it

Ignorance
Did it without knowing it's wrong


I doubt this was ignorance

ian wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 10:32am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:27am: ian wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:17am: Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:14am: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 9:52am: This is semantics though Maqqa. They are impressionable teenage girls who in no way "deserved" to be raped and killed with a hammer by these barbarians. And yet they only had to do a few searches on google to find out about ISIS and anyone with half a brain would have avoided it like the plague !! Looks like those two didn't even have half a brain !! I see. So intellectually retarded 17 year olds deserve everything they get. That will learn them. Who said they were intellectually retarded ? Now you are just making up stuff. I take it they had enough intellect not to eat rat poison ? So you are saying they werent dumb?

well what is it saying to you ?

The problem is that religious instruction teaches people that unreasoning is a positive virtue and should be encouraged. Unfortunately these actions by these two teenagers are the outcomes of such teachings. The parents have a lot to answer for by brainwashing them with this god gobbing muck.

cods wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 10:30am:

Aussie wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:21am: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 9:52am: This is semantics though Maqqa. They are impressionable teenage girls who in no way "deserved" to be raped and killed with a hammer by these barbarians. What if she had a Kalashnikov and was shooting Israelis?  How would you describe her then? what if she was on the internet being groomed by some dirty old man in his 50s.....which we see every day.... the internet is a brainwashing machine...

the internet is a mode of communication

grooming was around well before the internet

whatever happened to stranger danger

Maqqa wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 10:37am:

cods wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:30am: Aussie wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:21am: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 9:52am: This is semantics though Maqqa. They are impressionable teenage girls who in no way "deserved" to be raped and killed with a hammer by these barbarians. What if she had a Kalashnikov and was shooting Israelis?  How would you describe her then? what if she was on the internet being groomed by some dirty old man in his 50s.....which we see every day.... the internet is a brainwashing machine... the internet is a mode of communication grooming was around well before the internet whatever happened to stranger danger

no dear.... in those days someone would come up to you usually in the street and grab you....you saw them face to face..

now with the internet they pretend to be what they are not....but the young .girls mainly... believe them.. no different to believing ISIS..when they tell them all we want you to do is cook our food...

they worm their way in well before the young take their chances....

dont you often feel on here even... you know the people you are talking too???????>..


of course you do.

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 10:34am:

ian wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:32am: Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:27am: ian wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:17am: Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:14am: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 9:52am: This is semantics though Maqqa. They are impressionable teenage girls who in no way "deserved" to be raped and killed with a hammer by these barbarians. And yet they only had to do a few searches on google to find out about ISIS and anyone with half a brain would have avoided it like the plague !! Looks like those two didn't even have half a brain !! I see. So intellectually retarded 17 year olds deserve everything they get. That will learn them. Who said they were intellectually retarded ? Now you are just making up stuff. I take it they had enough intellect not to eat rat poison ? So you are saying they werent dumb? well what is it saying to you ? The problem is that religious instruction teaches people that unreasoning is a positive virtue and should be encouraged. Unfortunately these actions by these two teenagers are the outcomes of such teachings. The parents have a lot to answer for by brainwashing them with this god gobbing muck.

So now you are saying they were brainwashed and their parents carry the blame. But these children still deserved to be raped and murdered. Very strange moral compass you have there.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 8:57am:

17 years old is still a child. Impressionable and vulnerable Herb. This people are pigs and cowards. These girls deserved none of that.

it's not about 'deserving' since no one deserves that. the point is that she was complicit in the outcome by willingly putting herself in a place where that was a common experience.

your life tends to be an example or a cautionary tale. theirs was the latter.

cods wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 10:42am:

no dear.... in those days someone would come up to you usually in the street and grab you....you saw them face to face.. now with the internet they pretend to be what they are not....but the young .girls mainly... believe them.. no different to believing ISIS..when they tell them all we want you to do is cook our food... they worm their way in well before the young take their chances.... dont you often feel on here even... you know the people you are talking too???????>.. of course you do.

Yes mam

But grabbing is not the same as grooming

We were talking about grooming not grabbing

I guess that was what she wanted. Pity looks good.
I think she was of bosnijak origin. Someone told me that they are extremely stupid people.

https://img.rt.com/files/2015.11/original/5655ba39c36188bd778b4567.jpg

cods wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 10:30am:

what if she was on the internet being groomed by some dirty old man in his 50s.....which we see every day....

When Marla isn't too stoned to login to social media she gets that kind of Dirty Old Man attention all the time - especially around the subject of spanking - but it hasn't caused her to go running off to join the local chapter of her Aryan Brother's association.

8-)

Aussie wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 10:21am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 9:52am: This is semantics though Maqqa. They are impressionable teenage girls who in no way "deserved" to be raped and killed with a hammer by these barbarians. What if she had a Kalashnikov and was shooting Israelis?  How would you describe her then?

Mr Hicks???

ian wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 10:50am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:34am: ian wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:32am: Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:27am: ian wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:17am: Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:14am: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 9:52am: This is semantics though Maqqa. They are impressionable teenage girls who in no way "deserved" to be raped and killed with a hammer by these barbarians. And yet they only had to do a few searches on google to find out about ISIS and anyone with half a brain would have avoided it like the plague !! Looks like those two didn't even have half a brain !! I see. So intellectually retarded 17 year olds deserve everything they get. That will learn them. Who said they were intellectually retarded ? Now you are just making up stuff. I take it they had enough intellect not to eat rat poison ? So you are saying they werent dumb? well what is it saying to you ? The problem is that religious instruction teaches people that unreasoning is a positive virtue and should be encouraged. Unfortunately these actions by these two teenagers are the outcomes of such teachings. The parents have a lot to answer for by brainwashing them with this god gobbing muck. So now you are saying they were brainwashed and their parents carry the blame. But these children still deserved to be raped and murdered. Very strange moral compass you have there.

If they'd jumped into a lions cage and got mauled to death then sure they didn't deserve that but you can't be responsible for other peoples stupidity.

Maqqa wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 10:37am:

whatever happened to stranger danger

Nowadays it's considered to be 'un-inclusive', 'discriminatory', 'xenophobic' - and very possibly 'racist' if you happen to live in a mixed race neighbourhood.

Aussie wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 10:56am:

Aussie wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:21am: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 9:52am: This is semantics though Maqqa. They are impressionable teenage girls who in no way "deserved" to be raped and killed with a hammer by these barbarians. What if she had a Kalashnikov and was shooting Israelis?  How would you describe her then? Mr Hicks???

It's funny how he is not quick to reply because this is the same dude that said we should dispose of Saddam so they could get their grubby little hands on the oil spoils which subsequently created this ISIS mess in the first place :(

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 10:58am:

[ If they'd jumped into a lions cage and got mauled to death then sure they didn't deserve that but you can't be responsible for other peoples stupidity.

No one is this thread has stated we should be responsible for their stupidity.  Is English your first language? You seem to be having some basic comprehension issues.

ian wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 11:56am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 10:58am: [ If they'd jumped into a lions cage and got mauled to death then sure they didn't deserve that but you can't be responsible for other peoples stupidity. No one is this thread has stated we should be responsible for their stupidity.  Is English your first language? You seem to be having some basic comprehension issues.

don't start with your stupid riddles again. My bat computer is out of action at the moment :D LOL

lets surmise Lostnails commentary. The girls are dumb and deserved everything they got. The girls are stupid, didnt deserve what they got but deserved everything they got.

Rid the world of ISIS and the world will be a better place.... this kind stupidity just goes to show why....

ian wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 12:02pm:

lets surmise Lostnails commentary. The girls are dumb and deserved everything they got. The girls are stupid, didnt deserve what they got but deserved everything they got.

when did I say "they deserved everything they got" ??

You're just adding your bullshit to everything as usual. 

How about the Arabs rid their world of ISIS. Or not. What the hell this has anything to do with Australia. We   should close our contact in any way shape or form to all these filthy countries.

No one deserves what happened to the girls, not even the terrorists themselves.  Its much more merciful to put a bullet through instead. 

They are not adults, and their brains have not formed enough, and their inexperience, making them an easy target for indoctrination. 

ISIS is repeating the mistakes of Taliban (who is now public acknowledged that what they did to women in their time, was wrong - although I am very sceptical of that).   A rule of tyranny, and of crime humanity, will keep them in power temporarily, however, they will lose the popular support - or in this case inertia.    My guess, is that the people who perpetrated these crimes are just bunch of uneducated ruffians - usually men with ego problems. 

Re Ian:

Well, its difficult.  When we are trying to topple Iran and Syria - the main ISIS opposition in the region.   At the same time, we are helping the Saudis in the Saudi Yemen conflict.   There are ALOT of vested interest for the West in this region, and we are talking about conflicts dating back to the Roman days.   Its not going to end in a hurry.

ian wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 12:10pm:

How about the Arabs rid their world of ISIS.

The Saudis,UAE and Qatar have been financing the Islamic state.

ian wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 12:10pm:

How about the Arabs rid their world of ISIS. Or not. What the hell this has anything to do with Australia. We   should close our contact in any way shape or form to all these filthy countries.

And not one thing would change if we left.  We are not required or needed there.  We have no right or place there.

Aussie wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 1:05pm:

ian wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 12:10pm: How about the Arabs rid their world of ISIS. Or not. What the hell this has anything to do with Australia. We   should close our contact in any way shape or form to all these filthy countries. And not one thing would change if we left.  We are not required or needed there.  We have no right or place there.

Totally agree with Aussie and Ian.

Get the hell out of the Middle East - including Afghanistan.

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:07am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 8:57am: 17 years old is still a child. Impressionable and vulnerable Herb. This people are pigs and cowards. These girls deserved none of that. ISIS is a product of your ilk hicks. The insatiable greed for oil has created this monster in the middle east and now you are pretending like you weren't part of it !!

  What does that mean ?

tickleandrose wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 12:45pm:

No one deserves what happened to the girls, not even the terrorists themselves.  Its much more merciful to put a bullet through instead.  They are not adults, and their brains have not formed enough, and their inexperience, making them an easy target for indoctrination.

So at what age would you suggest their brains to be formed enough?

She played with ISIS - was she expecting to be sent to a naughty corner?

It's time we viewed the consequences as a deserving outcome for those who won't think and/or take responsibility for their actions

Maqqa wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 2:45pm:

tickleandrose wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 12:45pm: No one deserves what happened to the girls, not even the terrorists themselves.  Its much more merciful to put a bullet through instead.  They are not adults, and their brains have not formed enough, and their inexperience, making them an easy target for indoctrination.  So at what age would you suggest their brains to be formed enough? She played with ISIS - was she expecting to be sent to a naughty corner? It's time we viewed the consequences as a deserving outcome for those who won't think and/or take responsibility for their actions

In terms of age of maturity and competency, I will follow the guideline of Gillick competency.  And it varies from issue to issue.  In this case, clearly, her mental development have not reached a stage when she can see through the lies of ISIS. 

The issue here is that she was lied to.  She was promised glory and purpose, and ISIS took advantages of her vulnerability.  This is a despicable crime against a child.   She was lured, raped and then killed.   And this is the reason why our law specifically dictate that children cannot consent to have sex with grown men, even if implied consent was given.   Yes she had made a mistake, a foolish mistake.   But what happened to her was despicable, and I hope one day her perpetrators will be bought to justice. 

The only positive out of this, is that lets hope other young girls will heed this warning, and do not follow in her footsteps.

PS>  (That is if this story is not fabricated by Western Media to discourage new recruits... but hey, strange world we live in right?)

tickleandrose wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 4:43pm:

Maqqa wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 2:45pm: tickleandrose wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 12:45pm: No one deserves what happened to the girls, not even the terrorists themselves.  Its much more merciful to put a bullet through instead.  They are not adults, and their brains have not formed enough, and their inexperience, making them an easy target for indoctrination.  So at what age would you suggest their brains to be formed enough? She played with ISIS - was she expecting to be sent to a naughty corner? It's time we viewed the consequences as a deserving outcome for those who won't think and/or take responsibility for their actions In terms of age of maturity and competency, I will follow the guideline of Gillick competency.  And it varies from issue to issue.  In this case, clearly, her mental development have not reached a stage when she can see through the lies of ISIS.  The issue here is that she was lied to.  She was promised glory and purpose, and ISIS took advantages of her vulnerability.  This is a despicable crime against a child.   She was lured, raped and then killed.   And this is the reason why our law specifically dictate that children cannot consent to have sex with grown men, even if implied consent was given.   Yes she had made a mistake, a foolish mistake.   But what happened to her was despicable, and I hope one day her perpetrators will be bought to justice.  The only positive out of this, is that lets hope other young girls will heed this warning, and do not follow in her footsteps. PS>  (That is if this story is not fabricated by Western Media to discourage new recruits... but hey, strange world we live in right?)

I agree with the posting of that caveat.

But, I'm also interested in what you say if she had been shooting a kalashnikov as a Member of ISIS.  I've asked Hicks the same question, but he has not answered.

ian wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 12:10pm:

How about the Arabs rid their world of ISIS. Or not. What the hell this has anything to do with Australia. We   should close our contact in any way shape or form to all these filthy countries.

most arab countries couldnt defeat a boy scout troop. they are generally awful.

I don't see much sympathy for the young men joining ISIS and then getting executing for changing their mind. I don't feel any for these girls either. It's no big secret what ISIS does to non-Muslim women they catch. Any woman who wants to go and support that deserves whatever they get.

tickleandrose wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 4:43pm:

Maqqa wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 2:45pm: tickleandrose wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 12:45pm: No one deserves what happened to the girls, not even the terrorists themselves.  Its much more merciful to put a bullet through instead.  They are not adults, and their brains have not formed enough, and their inexperience, making them an easy target for indoctrination.  So at what age would you suggest their brains to be formed enough? She played with ISIS - was she expecting to be sent to a naughty corner? It's time we viewed the consequences as a deserving outcome for those who won't think and/or take responsibility for their actions In terms of age of maturity and competency, I will follow the guideline of Gillick competency.  And it varies from issue to issue.  In this case, clearly, her mental development have not reached a stage when she can see through the lies of ISIS.  The issue here is that she was lied to.  She was promised glory and purpose, and ISIS took advantages of her vulnerability.  This is a despicable crime against a child.   She was lured, raped and then killed.   And this is the reason why our law specifically dictate that children cannot consent to have sex with grown men, even if implied consent was given.   Yes she had made a mistake, a foolish mistake.   But what happened to her was despicable, and I hope one day her perpetrators will be bought to justice.  The only positive out of this, is that lets hope other young girls will heed this warning, and do not follow in her footsteps. PS>  (That is if this story is not fabricated by Western Media to discourage new recruits... but hey, strange world we live in right?)

the story has been confirmed by a number of sources. it is also thoroughly consistent with everything we know about ISIS.  why would anyone need to fabricate a story about two well known girls when there are more than enough additional stories even more horrific to tell?

freediver wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 5:44pm:

I don't see much sympathy for the young men joining ISIS and then getting executing for changing their mind. I don't feel any for these girls either. It's no big secret what ISIS does to non-Muslim women they catch. Any woman who wants to go and support that deserves whatever they get.

Nooooo.  Hicks will tell you they are just kids who know not what they do.  Mr Hicks ran like a freshly pharked ferret when  asked what his view would be if she had been shooting a kalashnikov for ISIS. I wonder how he would deal with the obvious analogy.....replace 17 year old female/kalashnikov with 17 year old male/kalashnikov.

If her death helps stem the tide of Muslim women traveling to ISIS to support the troops, then her death has not been in vain.

freediver wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 7:30pm:

If her death helps stem the tide of Muslim women traveling to ISIS to support the troops, then her death has not been in vain.

Well said.

Being a blonde, blue-eyed white girl like some of those Yazidi girls - didn't help her chances much. She was exposed cat-meat the moment she arrived in ISIS territory.

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 7:34pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 7:30pm: If her death helps stem the tide of Muslim women traveling to ISIS to support the troops, then her death has not been in vain. Well said. Being a blonde, blue-eyed white girl like some of those Yazidi girls - didn't help her chances much. She was exposed cat-meat the moment she arrived in ISIS territory.

Huh?  This is blonde blue eyed?

https://img.rt.com/files/2015.11/original/5655ba39c36188bd778b4567.jpg

FD....let's get your position sorted here.  17 year old female who volunteers to serve ISIS is just a mixed up kid.  17 year old male is......what?  And how about a 15 year old killer of a civilian accountant here in Australia?  What was he.  An ISIS plant....or a dick head?

Aussie wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 7:48pm:

FD....let's get your position sorted here.  17 year old female who volunteers to serve ISIS is just a mixed up kid.  17 year old male is......what?  And how about a 15 year old killer of a civilian accountant here in Australia?  What was he.  An ISIS plant....or a dick head?

FFS

Mixed up kid??!!!

Maqqa wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 8:16pm:

Aussie wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 7:48pm: FD....let's get your position sorted here.  17 year old female who volunteers to serve ISIS is just a mixed up kid.  17 year old male is......what?  And how about a 15 year old killer of a civilian accountant here in Australia?  What was he.  An ISIS plant....or a dick head? for goodness sake Mixed up kid??!!!

Ask Hicks...not me.

tickleandrose wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 4:43pm:

In terms of age of maturity and competency, I will follow the guideline of Gillick competency.  And it varies from issue to issue.  In this case, clearly, her mental development have not reached a stage when she can see through the lies of ISIS.  The issue here is that she was lied to.  She was promised glory and purpose, and ISIS took advantages of her vulnerability.  This is a despicable crime against a child.   She was lured, raped and then killed.   And this is the reason why our law specifically dictate that children cannot consent to have sex with grown men, even if implied consent was given.   Yes she had made a mistake, a foolish mistake.   But what happened to her was despicable, and I hope one day her perpetrators will be bought to justice.  The only positive out of this, is that lets hope other young girls will heed this warning, and do not follow in her footsteps. PS>  (That is if this story is not fabricated by Western Media to discourage new recruits... but hey, strange world we live in right?)

So how do we tell is someone deliberately fail the Gillick test?

And does that then mean anyone failing it is absolved from any culpability?

Maqqa wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 8:21pm:

tickleandrose wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 4:43pm: In terms of age of maturity and competency, I will follow the guideline of Gillick competency.  And it varies from issue to issue.  In this case, clearly, her mental development have not reached a stage when she can see through the lies of ISIS.  The issue here is that she was lied to.  She was promised glory and purpose, and ISIS took advantages of her vulnerability.  This is a despicable crime against a child.   She was lured, raped and then killed.   And this is the reason why our law specifically dictate that children cannot consent to have sex with grown men, even if implied consent was given.   Yes she had made a mistake, a foolish mistake.   But what happened to her was despicable, and I hope one day her perpetrators will be bought to justice.  The only positive out of this, is that lets hope other young girls will heed this warning, and do not follow in her footsteps. PS>  (That is if this story is not fabricated by Western Media to discourage new recruits... but hey, strange world we live in right?) So how do we tell is someone deliberately fail the Gillick test? And does that then mean anyone failing it is absolved from any culpability?

If they emerge from Maqqa's wood shed without a FATWA they pass.

freediver wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 5:44pm:

I don't see much sympathy for the young men joining ISIS and then getting executing for changing their mind. I don't feel any for these girls either. It's no big secret what ISIS does to non-Muslim women they catch. Any woman who wants to go and support that deserves whatever they get.

Someone described it exactly for what it was - grooming. We in the west are familiar with this sinister practice of men seducing young girls and then raping them. Interesting that we don't have a knee-jerk reaction to blame those victims. Likewise, our culture has had great success in weeding out the noxious attitude that says, for example, that women who wear skimply clothing "deserve" to be raped. Maybe its time we started viewing these sorts of groomings in the same way.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 8:49pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 5:44pm: I don't see much sympathy for the young men joining ISIS and then getting executing for changing their mind. I don't feel any for these girls either. It's no big secret what ISIS does to non-Muslim women they catch. Any woman who wants to go and support that deserves whatever they get. Someone described it exactly for what it was - grooming. We in the west are familiar with this sinister practice of men seducing young girls and then raping them. Interesting that we don't have a knee-jerk reaction to blame those victims. Likewise, our culture has had great success in weeding out the noxious attitude that says, for example, that women who wear skimply clothing "deserve" to be raped. Maybe its time we started viewing these sorts of groomings in the same way.

Just for females of course.  17 year old males with a kalashnikov are barbarians.  We all know that.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 8:49pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 5:44pm: I don't see much sympathy for the young men joining ISIS and then getting executing for changing their mind. I don't feel any for these girls either. It's no big secret what ISIS does to non-Muslim women they catch. Any woman who wants to go and support that deserves whatever they get. Someone described it exactly for what it was - grooming. We in the west are familiar with this sinister practice of men seducing young girls and then raping them. Interesting that we don't have a knee-jerk reaction to blame those victims. Likewise, our culture has had great success in weeding out the noxious attitude that says, for example, that women who wear skimply clothing "deserve" to be raped. Maybe its time we started viewing these sorts of groomings in the same way.

Precisely. There is no doubt in my mind that this poor young girl was groomed in a like manner to the methods of any sexual predator. She was probably promised the earth by some young, attractive man who convinced her that the western media was only showing propaganda about ISIS and that their cause was much more noble.

The same way they recruit foolish young boys.

mothra wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:25pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 8:49pm: freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 5:44pm: I don't see much sympathy for the young men joining ISIS and then getting executing for changing their mind. I don't feel any for these girls either. It's no big secret what ISIS does to non-Muslim women they catch. Any woman who wants to go and support that deserves whatever they get. Someone described it exactly for what it was - grooming. We in the west are familiar with this sinister practice of men seducing young girls and then raping them. Interesting that we don't have a knee-jerk reaction to blame those victims. Likewise, our culture has had great success in weeding out the noxious attitude that says, for example, that women who wear skimply clothing "deserve" to be raped. Maybe its time we started viewing these sorts of groomings in the same way. Precisely. There is no doubt in my mind that this poor young girl was groomed in a like manner to the methods of any sexual predator. She was probably promised the earth by some young, attractive man who convinced her that the western media was only showing propaganda about ISIS and that their cause was much more noble. The same way they recruit foolish young boys.

Indeed.

All of that means nothing to Lord Herbert, though.

Lord Herbert: "I'm glad they got raped out of their minds and then killed by a lunatic running after them with a hammer."

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:29pm:

mothra wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 9:25pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 8:49pm: freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 5:44pm: I don't see much sympathy for the young men joining ISIS and then getting executing for changing their mind. I don't feel any for these girls either. It's no big secret what ISIS does to non-Muslim women they catch. Any woman who wants to go and support that deserves whatever they get. Someone described it exactly for what it was - grooming. We in the west are familiar with this sinister practice of men seducing young girls and then raping them. Interesting that we don't have a knee-jerk reaction to blame those victims. Likewise, our culture has had great success in weeding out the noxious attitude that says, for example, that women who wear skimply clothing "deserve" to be raped. Maybe its time we started viewing these sorts of groomings in the same way. Precisely. There is no doubt in my mind that this poor young girl was groomed in a like manner to the methods of any sexual predator. She was probably promised the earth by some young, attractive man who convinced her that the western media was only showing propaganda about ISIS and that their cause was much more noble. The same way they recruit foolish young boys. Indeed. All of that means nothing to Lord Herbert, though. Lord Herbert: "I'm glad they got raped out of their minds and then killed by a lunatic running after them with a hammer."

I know. It's sickening. So is the thread title and more than a few comments in this thread.

Glad. He actually said glad.

mothra wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:30pm:

Glad. He actually said glad.

Indeed.

Lord Herbert actually said:

"I'm glad they got raped out of their minds and then killed by a lunatic running after them with a hammer."

He was glad they got raped, and he was glad they were murdered.

Lord Herbert.

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:32pm:

mothra wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 9:30pm: Glad. He actually said glad. Indeed. Lord Herbert actually said: "I'm glad they got raped out of their minds and then killed by a lunatic running after them with a hammer." He was glad they got raped, and he was glad they were murdered. Lord Herbert.

Come on!!!! Credit where it is due!  Hicks would not have a bar of that stuff when  a 17 year old female is involved, but he is totally unforgiving if it is a male.  They are 'barbarians' those 17 year old fellas.  The 17 year old females are.......

Bah humbug!

Maqqa wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 8:21pm:

tickleandrose wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 4:43pm: In terms of age of maturity and competency, I will follow the guideline of Gillick competency.  And it varies from issue to issue.  In this case, clearly, her mental development have not reached a stage when she can see through the lies of ISIS.  The issue here is that she was lied to.  She was promised glory and purpose, and ISIS took advantages of her vulnerability.  This is a despicable crime against a child.   She was lured, raped and then killed.   And this is the reason why our law specifically dictate that children cannot consent to have sex with grown men, even if implied consent was given.   Yes she had made a mistake, a foolish mistake.   But what happened to her was despicable, and I hope one day her perpetrators will be bought to justice.  The only positive out of this, is that lets hope other young girls will heed this warning, and do not follow in her footsteps. PS>  (That is if this story is not fabricated by Western Media to discourage new recruits... but hey, strange world we live in right?) So how do we tell is someone deliberately fail the Gillick test? And does that then mean anyone failing it is absolved from any culpability?

Well, first of all, the girl in question was the victim.  She was lured to join the ISIS, but in essence, she was never part of IS, except its sex slave and earlier on a tool for propaganda.  For all we know, she could be a victim of ISIS factional in fighting as well.  But I guess, we will never found out the truth.

As to the question of absolved from culpability, well, we can not be so absolute to be yes or no.  In a court, we have to take in to account each individual circumstances and make a fair call.   What if, the girl do have a low IQ because of say cerebral palsy, or have intellectual disability.   What if she came from a history of abuse, and this is the way for her to escape - or she thought.  Many young girls in Australia were lured into drug use, not because they want to have fun, but alot of times to escape from reality of their suffering and to self medicate.   

I hope her abusers and killers cop shrapnel wounds to the gut and die slowly from infection..... couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of blokes....

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 11:14pm:

I hope her abusers and killers cop shrapnel wounds to the gut and die slowly from infection..... couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of blokes....

Couldn't have said it better myself Mr Grappler.

tickleandrose wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 10:30pm:

Well, first of all, the girl in question was the victim.  She was lured to join the ISIS, but in essence, she was never part of IS, except its sex slave and earlier on a tool for propaganda.  For all we know, she could be a victim of ISIS factional in fighting as well.  But I guess, we will never found out the truth. As to the question of absolved from culpability, well, we can not be so absolute to be yes or no.  In a court, we have to take in to account each individual circumstances and make a fair call.   What if, the girl do have a low IQ because of say cerebral palsy, or have intellectual disability.   What if she came from a history of abuse, and this is the way for her to escape - or she thought.  Many young girls in Australia were lured into drug use, not because they want to have fun, but alot of times to escape from reality of their suffering and to self medicate.

The highlighted part shows what is wrong with our society today

Too many victims and no responsibility

It's always someone else's fault

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 8:49pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 5:44pm: I don't see much sympathy for the young men joining ISIS and then getting executing for changing their mind. I don't feel any for these girls either. It's no big secret what ISIS does to non-Muslim women they catch. Any woman who wants to go and support that deserves whatever they get. Someone described it exactly for what it was - grooming. We in the west are familiar with this sinister practice of men seducing young girls and then raping them. Interesting that we don't have a knee-jerk reaction to blame those victims. Likewise, our culture has had great success in weeding out the noxious attitude that says, for example, that women who wear skimply clothing "deserve" to be raped. Maybe its time we started viewing these sorts of groomings in the same way.

Grooming rapists don't tell their victims they are going to be raped. Do you think this girl was unaware she was travelling to live in and support a war, or what ISIS's reputation was with women? If she thought she was merely going out for coffee with a swarthy darkie, you might have a point.

mothra wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:30pm:

Glad. He actually said glad.

I know. It normally takes a lot more than that to cheer Herbie up.

freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 8:03am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 8:49pm: freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 5:44pm: I don't see much sympathy for the young men joining ISIS and then getting executing for changing their mind. I don't feel any for these girls either. It's no big secret what ISIS does to non-Muslim women they catch. Any woman who wants to go and support that deserves whatever they get. Someone described it exactly for what it was - grooming. We in the west are familiar with this sinister practice of men seducing young girls and then raping them. Interesting that we don't have a knee-jerk reaction to blame those victims. Likewise, our culture has had great success in weeding out the noxious attitude that says, for example, that women who wear skimply clothing "deserve" to be raped. Maybe its time we started viewing these sorts of groomings in the same way. Grooming rapists don't tell their victims they are going to be raped. Do you think this girl was unaware she was travelling to live in and support a war, or what ISIS's reputation was with women? If she thought she was merely going out for coffee with a swarthy darkie, you might have a point.

I believe that she thought going to get a better deal than she got.

Isn't that obvious?

Obviously. She thought the non-Muslim women were the sex slaves. Being a Muslim, she thought she would be the ubermensch. Maybe she thought she would have her own slaves.

Did you hear about the young Aussie kid who went to fight in WWII despite being well under the official minimum age to join the army? He ended up dying in a concentration camp. Do you feel sympathy for him? After all, no-one told him running off to join the Nazis might not be a wise move for a young Jew.

freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 9:45am:

Obviously. She thought the non-Muslim women were the sex slaves. Being a Muslim, she thought she would be the ubermensch. Maybe she thought she would have her own slaves. Did you hear about the young Aussie kid who went to fight in WWII despite being well under the official minimum age to join the army? He ended up dying in a concentration camp. Do you feel sympathy for him? After all, no-one told him running off to join the Nazis might not be a wise move for a young Jew.

Maybe she was seduced in such a way that she didn't think slaves were a part of the package at all?

Grooming for a "romantic interlude" with a 45 years old guy who pretends to be 14 and grooming for "romantic interlude with ISIS" are not the same

Today's children are raise with all the empowerments without the responsibility

mothra wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 9:49am:

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 9:45am: Obviously. She thought the non-Muslim women were the sex slaves. Being a Muslim, she thought she would be the ubermensch. Maybe she thought she would have her own slaves. Did you hear about the young Aussie kid who went to fight in WWII despite being well under the official minimum age to join the army? He ended up dying in a concentration camp. Do you feel sympathy for him? After all, no-one told him running off to join the Nazis might not be a wise move for a young Jew. Maybe she was seduced in such a way that she didn't think slaves were a part of the package at all?

Like I said, if she merely thought she was going out for coffee with a swarthy darkie, Gandalf would have a point. If on the other hand she was "seduced" by the thought of joining the Islamic State in their glorious war against the infidel, she got what she deserved.

Has she been nominated for the Darwin awards yet?

Maybe she believed Gandalf's propaganda about the Islamic breeding program being infidel propaganda to cynically smear Islam with wishy washy western liberal morals.

freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 10:14am:

mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 9:49am: freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 9:45am: Obviously. She thought the non-Muslim women were the sex slaves. Being a Muslim, she thought she would be the ubermensch. Maybe she thought she would have her own slaves. Did you hear about the young Aussie kid who went to fight in WWII despite being well under the official minimum age to join the army? He ended up dying in a concentration camp. Do you feel sympathy for him? After all, no-one told him running off to join the Nazis might not be a wise move for a young Jew. Maybe she was seduced in such a way that she didn't think slaves were a part of the package at all? Like I said, if she merely thought she was going out for coffee with a swarthy darkie, Gandalf would have a point. If on the other hand she was "seduced" by the thought of joining the Islamic State in their glorious war against the infidel, she got what she deserved. Has she been nominated for the Darwin awards yet?

You can't imagine any other scenario?

Sure. She might have been kidnapped. Or maybe she wanted to help behead people on youtube videos. What is your point?

t in between your extreme scenarios probably lies the truth.

That she was seduced by an attractive male who convinced her that the media reports of ISIS were propganda and that the cause was noble and good. That she would be protected and well treated and that the attractive male with whom she was communicating would love and protect her.

You know. Grooming.

freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 8:03am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 8:49pm: freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 5:44pm: I don't see much sympathy for the young men joining ISIS and then getting executing for changing their mind. I don't feel any for these girls either. It's no big secret what ISIS does to non-Muslim women they catch. Any woman who wants to go and support that deserves whatever they get. Someone described it exactly for what it was - grooming. We in the west are familiar with this sinister practice of men seducing young girls and then raping them. Interesting that we don't have a knee-jerk reaction to blame those victims. Likewise, our culture has had great success in weeding out the noxious attitude that says, for example, that women who wear skimply clothing "deserve" to be raped. Maybe its time we started viewing these sorts of groomings in the same way. Grooming rapists don't tell their victims they are going to be raped. Do you think this girl was unaware she was travelling to live in and support a war, or what ISIS's reputation was with women? If she thought she was merely going out for coffee with a swarthy darkie, you might have a point.

FD you realise there are thousands of women in this country who willingly continue to go back to abusive husbands? We even have a term for it - battered wife syndrome. Do we go around mocking them and nominating them for Darwin awards? Some might, but mostly we acknowledge that its pointless to blame the victim. Pull the right emotional strings and humans are susceptible to all sorts of seemingly irrational choices - especially impressionable children who are the target of professional groomers


freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 9:45am:

Obviously. She thought the non-Muslim women were the sex slaves. Being a Muslim, she thought she would be the ubermensch. Maybe she thought she would have her own slaves.

Here's a thought - maybe the groomers that targeted her were more convincing than you in their propaganda about ISIS - also they targeted her, you didn't.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 11:23am:

FD you realise there are thousands of women in this country who willingly continue to go back to abusive husbands? We even have a term for it - battered wife syndrome. Do we go around mocking them and nominating them for Darwin awards? Some might, but mostly we acknowledge that its pointless to blame the victim. Pull the right emotional strings and humans are susceptible to all sorts of seemingly irrational choices - especially impressionable children who are the target of professional groomers

And if she continues to come back then she deserve the bashing she gets before she press charges

She's a volunteer until she press charges

Maqqa wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 11:27am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 11:23am: FD you realise there are thousands of women in this country who willingly continue to go back to abusive husbands? We even have a term for it - battered wife syndrome. Do we go around mocking them and nominating them for Darwin awards? Some might, but mostly we acknowledge that its pointless to blame the victim. Pull the right emotional strings and humans are susceptible to all sorts of seemingly irrational choices - especially impressionable children who are the target of professional groomers And if she continues to come back then she deserve the bashing she gets before she press charges She's a volunteer until she press charges

Like I said - some might.

A 16 years old gets run over by a drunk driver while playing in her front yard - it's not her fault. She is the victim

A 16 years old gets psychologically manipulated to join ISIS - it's her fault and parents' fault. She is not a victim. She's a volunteer

maqqa saying its her fault and saying she deserved to be killed for it are two very different things.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 11:41am:

maqqa saying its her fault and saying she deserved to be killed for it are two very different things.

No one deserve to die in a socialistic society

but they deserve the consequences of their decisions

Consequences goes hand in hand with decisions

Maqqa wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 11:48am:

No one deserve to die in a socialistic society but they deserve the consequences of their decisions

Sounds like you are splitting hairs.

And I disagree - the men who did this to her certainly "deserve" to die IMO.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 11:53am:

Maqqa wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 11:48am: No one deserve to die in a socialistic society but they deserve the consequences of their decisions Sounds like you are splitting hairs. And I disagree - the men who did this to her certainly "deserve" to die IMO.

Then we agree that some actions deserve death as a consequence?

yes - but being brainwashed into becoming a sex slave isn't one of them

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 11:56am:

yes - but being brainwashed into becoming a sex slave isn't one of them

Oh Gandalf, glad you're here.

A question.

Are you, as a practising Muslim, outraged by this incident?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 11:56am:

yes - but being brainwashed into becoming a sex slave isn't one of them

Followers of ISIS are also brain washed

The leader of ISIS was also brainwashed

The people who killed these girls were also brainwashed

So under your brainwashed argument no one deserves to die as long as they can show some semblance of being brainwashed

Maqqa wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:00pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 11:56am: yes - but being brainwashed into becoming a sex slave isn't one of them Followers of ISIS are also brain washed The leader of ISIS was also brainwashed The people who killed these girls were also brainwashed So under your brainwashed argument no one deserves to die as long as they can show some semblance of being brainwashed

Maqqa do you think that maybe there is a bit of a difference between being brainwashed to subject yourself to rape and abuse and being brainwashed to become a rapist and murderer?

FD tried to dehumanize this girl with the old 'guilt by association' routine - but you can apply the same logic to battered wives and rape victims - without those victims "willingly" going along with their abusers, the rapists and wife beaters would be out of business.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:26pm:

Maqqa do you think that maybe there is a bit of a difference between being brainwashed to subject yourself to rape and abuse and being brainwashed to become a rapist and murderer? FD tried to dehumanize this girl with the old 'guilt by association' routine - but you can apply the same logic to battered wives and rape victims - without those victims "willingly" going along with their abusers, the rapists and wife beaters would be out of business.

I don't agree with FD too often but I agree with him on this one

To use the word brainwash is to absolve responsibility

Whether as a result of the brainwash you either endure and/or subject others to a set of undesirable actions - there must be personal responsibility

Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 11:58am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 11:56am: yes - but being brainwashed into becoming a sex slave isn't one of them Oh Gandalf, glad you're here. A question. Are you, as a practising Muslim, outraged by this incident?

Up!

Lisa, no offense, but kindly get stuffed with that question  :)

My responses in this thread should make it obvious my thoughts on the matter. I've had about enough of the constant inquisitions on muslims to make them prove their moral compass. Its condescending and its offensive.

As if any reasonable human being should have to point out that they are "outraged" by a poor girl getting raped and murdered  >:(

So, we are to believe that this 17 year old girl who was living in the developed country of Austria with its multi-faceted media services - including their version of SBS Bosnian radio and television - and the Muslim community she must have been a member of ... and the conversations in her parent's home ... and the public declarations by the local Muslim leaders that ISIS did not represent a decent version of Islam ...  etc etc ...

... with all of this information raining down upon her awareness we are to believe she went off to join ISIS as innocent and clueless as Snow White or Little Red Riding Hood?

Pull the other one - it plays 'Jingle Bells'.

It's enough for me that she MUST have known about the raping of the Yazidi, the beheadings, the crucifixions, and the executions in the deserts.

I'll allow that she didn't know about the burnings to death, the drownings, and the throwing of gays off the roofs. These videos are relatively recent compared to the others.

She wanted to give moral and practical support to people who were doing this: call them Muslims, Christians, Nazis - whoever.

The fact that she had sympathy for their cause, and this despite the horrors they were committing and which were played out to Western audiences through television sets and the Internet - is ample evidence as to the moral degeneracy of her character.

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 3:19pm:

So, we are to believe that this 17 year old girl who was living in the developed country of Austria with its multi-faceted media services - including their version of SBS Bosnian radio and television - and the Muslim community she must have been a member of ... and the conversations in her parent's home ... and the public declarations by the local Muslim leaders that ISIS did not represent a decent version of Islam ...  etc etc ... ... with all of this information raining down upon her awareness we are to believe she went off to join ISIS as innocent and clueless as Snow White or Little Red Riding Hood? Pull the other one - it plays 'Jingle Bells'. It's enough for me that she MUST have known about the raping of the Yazidi, the beheadings, the crucifixions, and the executions in the deserts. I'll allow that she didn't know about the burnings to death, the drownings, and the throwing of gays off the roofs. These videos are relatively recent compared to the others. She wanted to give moral and practical support to people who were doing this: call them Muslims, Christians, Nazis - whoever. The fact that she had sympathy for their cause, and this despite the horrors they were committing and which were played out to Western audiences through television sets and the Internet - is ample evidence as to the moral degeneracy of her character.

Herb people have a seemingly infinite ability to filter out the truth - especially when emotional heart strings are pulled. There are people on this forum who would swear with hand on heart that the US is not engaging in a campaign of systematic terrorism in places like Pakistan and Yemen, or that Israel is not attempting to sabotage the right of the Palestinians to create their own state. If find these far more unfathomable than an impressionable girl being led to believe that ISIS atrocities are just western conspiracies.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 3:38pm:

Herb people have a seemingly infinite ability to filter out the truth - especially when emotional heart strings are pulled. There are people on this forum who would swear with hand on heart that the US is not engaging in a campaign of systematic terrorism in places like Pakistan and Yemen, or that Israel is not attempting to sabotage the right of the Palestinians to create their own state. If find these far more unfathomable than an impressionable girl being led to believe that ISIS atrocities are just western conspiracies.

Pakistan - US invade it's borders to implement the systematic killing of Bin Laden

Palestine had it's chance in 1950's to establish itself.

Palestine has chances every single time there's a ceasefire

Stop provoking Israel. Stop sending suicide bombers over

Stop send announcements to its people to kill Israeli

Stop throwing rocks or any other projectiles at Israel

mothra wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:25pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 8:49pm: freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 5:44pm: I don't see much sympathy for the young men joining ISIS and then getting executing for changing their mind. I don't feel any for these girls either. It's no big secret what ISIS does to non-Muslim women they catch. Any woman who wants to go and support that deserves whatever they get. Someone described it exactly for what it was - grooming. We in the west are familiar with this sinister practice of men seducing young girls and then raping them. Interesting that we don't have a knee-jerk reaction to blame those victims. Likewise, our culture has had great success in weeding out the noxious attitude that says, for example, that women who wear skimply clothing "deserve" to be raped. Maybe its time we started viewing these sorts of groomings in the same way. Precisely. There is no doubt in my mind that this poor young girl was groomed in a like manner to the methods of any sexual predator. She was probably promised the earth by some young, attractive man who convinced her that the western media was only showing propaganda about ISIS and that their cause was much more noble. The same way they recruit foolish young boys.

there is only so much excuse you can make for these girls. 'grooming' promises things they cannot possibly know is false. ISIS is extremely well known and to ignore the brutality that is so often seen throws a lot of blame back on the girls.

AS FD said, let's hope they are an object lesson to other stupid girls about the horrors of ISIS

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 11:14pm:

I hope her abusers and killers cop shrapnel wounds to the gut and die slowly from infection..... couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of blokes....

IM with you on that one.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 5:12pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:14pm: I hope her abusers and killers cop shrapnel wounds to the gut and die slowly from infection..... couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of blokes.... IM with you on that one.

Me too.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 11:23am:

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 8:03am: polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 8:49pm: freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 5:44pm: I don't see much sympathy for the young men joining ISIS and then getting executing for changing their mind. I don't feel any for these girls either. It's no big secret what ISIS does to non-Muslim women they catch. Any woman who wants to go and support that deserves whatever they get. Someone described it exactly for what it was - grooming. We in the west are familiar with this sinister practice of men seducing young girls and then raping them. Interesting that we don't have a knee-jerk reaction to blame those victims. Likewise, our culture has had great success in weeding out the noxious attitude that says, for example, that women who wear skimply clothing "deserve" to be raped. Maybe its time we started viewing these sorts of groomings in the same way. Grooming rapists don't tell their victims they are going to be raped. Do you think this girl was unaware she was travelling to live in and support a war, or what ISIS's reputation was with women? If she thought she was merely going out for coffee with a swarthy darkie, you might have a point. FD you realise there are thousands of women in this country who willingly continue to go back to abusive husbands? We even have a term for it - battered wife syndrome. Do we go around mocking them and nominating them for Darwin awards? Some might, but mostly we acknowledge that its pointless to blame the victim. Pull the right emotional strings and humans are susceptible to all sorts of seemingly irrational choices - especially impressionable children who are the target of professional groomers freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 9:45am: Obviously. She thought the non-Muslim women were the sex slaves. Being a Muslim, she thought she would be the ubermensch. Maybe she thought she would have her own slaves. Here's a thought - maybe the groomers that targeted her were more convincing than you in their propaganda about ISIS - also they targeted her, you didn't.

So now all the women travelling to the Islamic State to support the 'noble cause' are victims? Or only the ones who end up regretting it?

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2016 at 5:29pm:

So now all the women travelling to the Islamic State to support the 'noble cause' are victims? Or only the ones who end up regretting it?

A child who gets raped and murdered is a victim in anyone's book FD, thats not the issue here. The question here is whether or not she 'deserved' it.

Did she deserve the death penalty for joining ISIS while knowing full well the horrors these jihadists had been engaged in? Probably not.

Do I feel sorry she came to a sticky end? Certainly not.

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 6^th, 2016 at 6:51pm:

Did she deserve the death penalty for joining ISIS while knowing full well the horrors these jihadists had been engaged in? Probably not. Do I feel sorry she came to a sticky end? Certainly not.

Well I feel sorry for her.

I'm also cranky with her for being so stupid.

Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 6^th, 2016 at 7:16pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 6th, 2016 at 6:51pm: Did she deserve the death penalty for joining ISIS while knowing full well the horrors these jihadists had been engaged in? Probably not. Do I feel sorry she came to a sticky end? Certainly not. Well I feel sorry for her. I'm also cranky with her for being so stupid.

You're cranky with a corpse?

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2016 at 5:29pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 11:23am: freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 8:03am: polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 8:49pm: freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 5:44pm: I don't see much sympathy for the young men joining ISIS and then getting executing for changing their mind. I don't feel any for these girls either. It's no big secret what ISIS does to non-Muslim women they catch. Any woman who wants to go and support that deserves whatever they get. Someone described it exactly for what it was - grooming. We in the west are familiar with this sinister practice of men seducing young girls and then raping them. Interesting that we don't have a knee-jerk reaction to blame those victims. Likewise, our culture has had great success in weeding out the noxious attitude that says, for example, that women who wear skimply clothing "deserve" to be raped. Maybe its time we started viewing these sorts of groomings in the same way. Grooming rapists don't tell their victims they are going to be raped. Do you think this girl was unaware she was travelling to live in and support a war, or what ISIS's reputation was with women? If she thought she was merely going out for coffee with a swarthy darkie, you might have a point. FD you realise there are thousands of women in this country who willingly continue to go back to abusive husbands? We even have a term for it - battered wife syndrome. Do we go around mocking them and nominating them for Darwin awards? Some might, but mostly we acknowledge that its pointless to blame the victim. Pull the right emotional strings and humans are susceptible to all sorts of seemingly irrational choices - especially impressionable children who are the target of professional groomers freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 9:45am: Obviously. She thought the non-Muslim women were the sex slaves. Being a Muslim, she thought she would be the ubermensch. Maybe she thought she would have her own slaves. Here's a thought - maybe the groomers that targeted her were more convincing than you in their propaganda about ISIS - also they targeted her, you didn't. So now all the women travelling to the Islamic State to support the 'noble cause' are victims? Or only the ones who end up regretting it?

FD, I know you directed the question at Gandalf...but IMO, they are victims.....brainwashed victims of a dangerous group of bastards.

Quote:

FD, I know you directed the question at Gandalf...but IMO, they are victims.....brainwashed victims of a dangerous group of bastards.

I don't and I doubt others give a flying phark about your pathetic and naked opinion.  It cuts no mustard.  Explain why, and you might get some interest.

Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 6^th, 2016 at 7:40pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2016 at 5:29pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 11:23am: freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 8:03am: polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 8:49pm: freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 5:44pm: I don't see much sympathy for the young men joining ISIS and then getting executing for changing their mind. I don't feel any for these girls either. It's no big secret what ISIS does to non-Muslim women they catch. Any woman who wants to go and support that deserves whatever they get. Someone described it exactly for what it was - grooming. We in the west are familiar with this sinister practice of men seducing young girls and then raping them. Interesting that we don't have a knee-jerk reaction to blame those victims. Likewise, our culture has had great success in weeding out the noxious attitude that says, for example, that women who wear skimply clothing "deserve" to be raped. Maybe its time we started viewing these sorts of groomings in the same way. Grooming rapists don't tell their victims they are going to be raped. Do you think this girl was unaware she was travelling to live in and support a war, or what ISIS's reputation was with women? If she thought she was merely going out for coffee with a swarthy darkie, you might have a point. FD you realise there are thousands of women in this country who willingly continue to go back to abusive husbands? We even have a term for it - battered wife syndrome. Do we go around mocking them and nominating them for Darwin awards? Some might, but mostly we acknowledge that its pointless to blame the victim. Pull the right emotional strings and humans are susceptible to all sorts of seemingly irrational choices - especially impressionable children who are the target of professional groomers freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 9:45am: Obviously. She thought the non-Muslim women were the sex slaves. Being a Muslim, she thought she would be the ubermensch. Maybe she thought she would have her own slaves. Here's a thought - maybe the groomers that targeted her were more convincing than you in their propaganda about ISIS - also they targeted her, you didn't. So now all the women travelling to the Islamic State to support the 'noble cause' are victims? Or only the ones who end up regretting it? FD, I know you directed the question at Gandalf...but IMO, they are victims.....brainwashed victims of a dangerous group of bastards.

What have you to say about that FD?

freediver wrote on Jan 6^th, 2016 at 5:29pm:

So now all the women travelling to the Islamic State to support the 'noble cause' are victims? Or only the ones who end up regretting it?

Those who are victims include
[list bull-redarrow]

If they get caught

If they get killed

If they get raped

If anything bad happen to them

Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 6^th, 2016 at 7:16pm:

I'm also cranky with her for being so stupid.

Some of you people have absolutely no insight or understanding of the moral evil she chose to embark upon when she decided to throw her support behind ISIS.

When someone chooses to join an organisation that is characterised by extreme violence, cruelty, mass and serial rape - and these acts of extreme barbarity are taped in High Definition and distributed throughout the world for millions to view - then we're not talking here about a 'naughty' schoolgirl off on a bit of a lark - but a morally bankrupt and very sick puppy indeed who could justify acts of extreme cruelty by the people she went off to join.


 

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 6^th, 2016 at 8:10pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 6th, 2016 at 7:16pm: I'm also cranky with her for being so stupid. Some of you people have absolutely no insight or understanding of the moral evil she chose to embark upon when she decided to throw her support behind ISIS. When someone chooses to join an organisation that is characterised by extreme violence, cruelty, mass and serial rape - and these acts of extreme barbarity are taped in High Definition and distributed throughout the world for millions to view - then we're not talking here about a 'naughty' schoolgirl off on a bit of a lark - but a morally bankrupt and very sick puppy indeed who could justify acts of extreme cruelty by the people she went off to join.

You could have just said :

Lisa, you're such a soft touch  :)

Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 6^th, 2016 at 8:19pm:

You could have just said : Lisa, you're such a soft touch  :)

There you go again, not understanding the evil that she had hoped to lend a hand with.

link

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 6^th, 2016 at 6:19pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2016 at 5:29pm: So now all the women travelling to the Islamic State to support the 'noble cause' are victims? Or only the ones who end up regretting it? A child who gets raped and murdered is a victim in anyone's book FD, thats not the issue here. The question here is whether or not she 'deserved' it.

Are they only a victim if they are a child Gandalf? Are you saying this 17 year old girl was a child?

If she deserved it, does that not imply she isn't a victim?

freediver wrote on Jan 7^th, 2016 at 8:29am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 6th, 2016 at 6:19pm: freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2016 at 5:29pm: So now all the women travelling to the Islamic State to support the 'noble cause' are victims? Or only the ones who end up regretting it? A child who gets raped and murdered is a victim in anyone's book FD, thats not the issue here. The question here is whether or not she 'deserved' it. Are they only a victim if they are a child Gandalf? Are you saying this 17 year old girl was a child? If she deserved it, does that not imply she isn't a victim?

like so many debates in this place, people use words badly.  try having a debate about a politician lying and see what people think 'lying' is!

the girl did not DESERVE it. no one does.  but she was partly responsible for the outcome by virtue of what she did. political correctness would disagree but victims ARE sometimes partly to blame for what happens to them. this is one such case.

if we take the word "deserve" out of the wording then we make her a victim

she's not a victim - she's a volunteer

She went off to join ISIS as a fully-informed late-teenager living in a Western country that has a highly developed and sophisticated news service.

If this girl was from a remote village in the foothills of Afghanistan where the roads are unsealed and the information services are very basic - my heart would go out to this poor girl.

If she had been a dark-skinned Arabic-looking girl with black hair and a hijab, she wouldn't have come to this sorry end. But looking Caucasian, she didn't stand a chance of not arousing the base instincts of the animals she had hoped to join up with like a moll joins up with a bikie gang.

She ended up as a victim, just the same as did all those Yazidi girls who she had had no sympathy for.

Poetic justice.

freediver wrote on Jan 7^th, 2016 at 8:29am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 6th, 2016 at 6:19pm: freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2016 at 5:29pm: So now all the women travelling to the Islamic State to support the 'noble cause' are victims? Or only the ones who end up regretting it? A child who gets raped and murdered is a victim in anyone's book FD, thats not the issue here. The question here is whether or not she 'deserved' it. Are they only a victim if they are a child Gandalf? Are you saying this 17 year old girl was a child? If she deserved it, does that not imply she isn't a victim?

I tend to view anyone who gets raped and murdered as a victim FD - is that so bizarre? But more importantly, I don't think she deserved it. And yes, as I said before, some victims deserve what they get - but this is not one of them. Someone who is lured in to go to a craphole to unwittingly become a sex slave who will be abused - and then killed when she tries to flee the horror - does not "deserve everything she gets" - and it requires a sick mind to believe she does IMO.

In your first post you compared her to young men who join ISIS and then get killed for trying to escape. Do you not see a difference between luring young men to fight and kill and terrorise, and luring young women to be good housewives? Can you at least appreciate the difference in gender power relations between a man luring a man and a man luring a woman?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 7^th, 2016 at 11:37am:

Someone who is lured in to go to a craphole to unwittingly become a sex slave who will be abused - and then killed when she tries to flee the horror - does not "deserve everything she gets" - and it requires a sick mind to believe she does IMO.

Indeed. And seemingly, we have several sick minds frequenting here.

mothra wrote on Jan 7^th, 2016 at 11:49am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 7th, 2016 at 11:37am: Someone who is lured in to go to a craphole to unwittingly become a sex slave who will be abused - and then killed when she tries to flee the horror - does not "deserve everything she gets" - and it requires a sick mind to believe she does IMO. Indeed. And seemingly, we have several sick minds frequenting here.

and it's an even more warped mind who thinks she doesn't

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 7^th, 2016 at 11:37am:

freediver wrote on Jan 7th, 2016 at 8:29am: polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 6th, 2016 at 6:19pm: freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2016 at 5:29pm: So now all the women travelling to the Islamic State to support the 'noble cause' are victims? Or only the ones who end up regretting it? A child who gets raped and murdered is a victim in anyone's book FD, thats not the issue here. The question here is whether or not she 'deserved' it. Are they only a victim if they are a child Gandalf? Are you saying this 17 year old girl was a child? If she deserved it, does that not imply she isn't a victim? I tend to view anyone who gets raped and murdered as a victim FD - is that so bizarre? But more importantly, I don't think she deserved it. And yes, as I said before, some victims deserve what they get - but this is not one of them. Someone who is lured in to go to a craphole to unwittingly become a sex slave who will be abused - and then killed when she tries to flee the horror - does not "deserve everything she gets" - and it requires a sick mind to believe she does IMO. In your first post you compared her to young men who join ISIS and then get killed for trying to escape. Do you not see a difference between luring young men to fight and kill and terrorise, and luring young women to be good housewives? Can you at least appreciate the difference in gender power relations between a man luring a man and a man luring a woman?

She could be a good housewife in Austria. She went to ISIS to support their cause. I understand the difference in gender relationships, which is why this is so ironic - hence my analogy of the young Jew running off to join the Nazis. The treatment of women by ISIS is hardly a secret, and any woman who tries to support that in any way (and there are no shortage of them among the Muslim population) is scum. Willful self delusion does not make up for that, even if she is a Muslim.

In luring her over to the conflict, do you think the swarthy darkie spun any lines about critics using wishy washy western liberal morals to cynically smear Islam?

I repeat that she was party to her own fate.  She didnt deserve her fate but she did enable it by gross stupidity.  If you drink yourself stupid then hop into a car and drive and get killed we all call you stupid.  you didnt deserver to die but you are still dead largely because of your own stupidity.

it seems that in todays society there is a real aversion to accepting resposibility for outcomes due to your own bad decisions.

freediver wrote on Jan 7^th, 2016 at 2:03pm:

The treatment of women by ISIS is hardly a secret, and any woman who tries to support that in any way (and there are no shortage of them among the Muslim population) is scum.

Not everyone has your black and white world view FD. I think it highly unlikely this girl thought to herself 'hey I think its a great idea to support the boys raping and pillaging' - just because thats the only way you can see it. As I said - she was groomed by someone  convincing her something else entirely.

Look at it this way - I find it pretty incredible that anyone could believe some of your condescending and borderline racist attitudes towards Afghanis and Iraqis in relation to the atrocities committed by the west, especially when the injustice being inflicted upon them by the west also "is hardly a secret". But I wouldn't call people wanting to support them as "scum" who "deserve everything they get" when they are kidnapped and beheaded by ISIS etc.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 7^th, 2016 at 7:49pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 7th, 2016 at 2:03pm: The treatment of women by ISIS is hardly a secret, and any woman who tries to support that in any way (and there are no shortage of them among the Muslim population) is scum. Not everyone has your black and white world view FD. I think it highly unlikely this girl thought to herself 'hey I think its a great idea to support the boys raping and pillaging' - just because thats the only way you can see it. As I said - she was groomed by someone  convincing her something else entirely. Look at it this way - I find it pretty incredible that anyone could believe some of your condescending and borderline racist attitudes towards Afghanis and Iraqis in relation to the atrocities committed by the west, especially when the injustice being inflicted upon them by the west also "is hardly a secret". But I wouldn't call people wanting to support them as "scum" who "deserve everything they get" when they are kidnapped and beheaded by ISIS etc.

sorry gandalf, but the facts about ISIS are so well known and so horrific that anyone who joins up with them is complicit in their crimes and responsible in a large way for their own outcomes.  The girls could not possibly have not known what ISIS were like.  If they were instead simply as gullible as you would suggest, they were victims-in-waiting anyhow for the next LOCAL sociopath to cross their path.  they bear the responsibility in large measure for what happened.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 8:22am:

sorry gandalf, but the facts about ISIS are so well known and so horrific that anyone who joins up with them is complicit in their crimes and responsible in a large way for their own outcomes.  The girls could not possibly have not known what ISIS were like.  If they were instead simply as gullible as you would suggest, they were victims-in-waiting anyhow for the next LOCAL sociopath to cross their path.  they bear the responsibility in large measure for what happened.

Post of the Day.

Cut your losses gandalf, and have the good grace to quietly concede defeat to the appeals of raw commonsense by melting back into the woodwork to fight another day.   

8-)

Quote:

Not everyone has your black and white world view FD.

I did not claim they do. For example, you have been known to go on about critics using wishy washy western liberal morals to cynically smear Islam. Do you think they used the same line on her? It makes the whole rape and pillage thing a grey area don't you think?


Quote:

I think it highly unlikely this girl thought to herself 'hey I think its a great idea to support the boys raping and pillaging' - just because thats the only way you can see it. As I said - she was groomed by someone  convincing her something else entirely.

 

Do you think she had liberty, democracy and humanity in mind instead? What was this "something else entirely"? Perhaps something like your efforts to 'reform' Islam?


Quote:

Look at it this way - I find it pretty incredible that anyone could believe some of your condescending and borderline racist attitudes

Are you saying I am not racist? Is this the whole "not black and white" thing again? I am not actually racist, but not unracist either? Do you think I am tinted, or merely off-white?


Quote:

But I wouldn't call people wanting to support them as "scum" who "deserve everything they get" when they are kidnapped and beheaded by ISIS etc.

So what do you think of people who leave the country to join ISIS?

freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 9:35am:

So what do you think of people who leave the country to join ISIS?

Are you seeking crowd funding?

freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 9:35am:

Quote: Not everyone has your black and white world view FD. I did not claim they do. For example, you have been known to go on about critics using wishy washy western liberal morals to cynically smear Islam. Do you think they used the same line on her? It makes the whole rape and pillage thing a grey area don't you think? [quote]I think it highly unlikely this girl thought to herself 'hey I think its a great idea to support the boys raping and pillaging' - just because thats the only way you can see it. As I said - she was groomed by someone  convincing her something else entirely.

 

Do you think she had liberty, democracy and humanity in mind instead? What was this "something else entirely"? Perhaps something like your efforts to 'reform' Islam?


Quote:

Look at it this way - I find it pretty incredible that anyone could believe some of your condescending and borderline racist attitudes

Are you saying I am not racist? Is this the whole "not black and white" thing again? I am not actually racist, but not unracist either? Do you think I am tinted, or merely off-white?


Quote:

But I wouldn't call people wanting to support them as "scum" who "deserve everything they get" when they are kidnapped and beheaded by ISIS etc.

So what do you think of people who leave the country to join ISIS?[/quote]

LOL you're getting worse FD.

Does anyone have their FD translator handy?

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 8:22am:

sorry gandalf, but the facts about ISIS are so well known and so horrific that anyone who joins up with them is complicit in their crimes and responsible in a large way for their own outcomes.  The girls could not possibly have not known what ISIS were like.  If they were instead simply as gullible as you would suggest, they were victims-in-waiting anyhow for the next LOCAL sociopath to cross their path.  they bear the responsibility in large measure for what happened.

Well at least you give comprehensible replies that I can respond to Longy.

You fail to distinguish between what they have heard about ISIS and what they believe about ISIS. It wouldn't be difficult at all to convince an impressionable young girl that all the bad press is nothing but a conspiracy to tarnish a legitimate Islamic resistance movement. Especially in the context of a war so bloody as the Syrian civil war where there is no shortage of emotional narratives to tug the heart strings. And once again I note the irony of you being so incredulous over this girl's beliefs - given such willful ignorance we have on this very forum: eg the person who just gave you a pat on the bum over this post basically posts nothing else but his sinister conspiracies about how immigration policies are aimed at destroying the white man. In fact this view is absolutely rampant on this forum. FD, when he's not making his idiotic cryptic posts, happily defends the war crimes committed against Iraqis, and pins any blame on the death and suffering inflicted on them on muslims - blithely ignoring the fact that the gates of hell were unleashed by the initial invasion by the US - a crime once described at Nuremberg as "the supreme crime" - from which all other war crimes spawn from.

And yet, I don't begrudge FD to have the delusion that the US has only good intentions for the Iraqi people. Even someone who, for example, decided to join a contractor who provided packed lunches to the guards at Abu Ghraib wouldn't "deserve" to get kidnapped and beheaded by Islamists for his complicity in the horrors that occurred there. I certainly wouldn't call them "scum" for deluding themselves into thinking that Abu Ghraib was a wonderful place for Iraqis, and that supporting the occupiers who ran it would be a noble thing.

So what do you think of people who leave the country to join ISIS? Let me know if you need this question dumbed down a bit.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 7^th, 2016 at 8:41am:

like so many debates in this place, people use words badly.  try having a debate about a politician lying and see what people think 'lying' is!

Indeed and clearly you are no exception to this observation of yours...


longweekend58 wrote on Jan 7^th, 2016 at 8:41am:

the girl did not DESERVE it. no one does.  but she was partly responsible for the outcome by virtue of what she did. political correctness would disagree but victims ARE sometimes partly to blame for what happens to them. this is one such case.

Partly to blame? These two girls are entirely responsible for chosing to go and join ISIS - that is all.

Being raped and murdered on the other hand is entirely the responsibility of the rapists and murderers - no ifs, ands or buts about it.

Now many here seem to be enjoying squirming around this topic effectively saying they got what they deserved, despite lacking the fortitude to directly state that (yep, some are directly stating that too, they are just too far gone to even bother with though...)...

NO ONE DESERVES to be raped, murdered, assaulted or harmed by another at any time in anyway shape or form...

That won't stop it happening, people hurt others with monotonous regularity - using terms like justified, deserved etc though, simply remove the responsibility from the guilty party and that is just stupidity beyond belief...

freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 11:36am:

So what do you think of people who leave the country to join ISIS?

Not much.

But that was never the issue was it? The issue here is your view that certain girls deserve to be raped, tortured and murdered.

What do you think of people who leave the country to support US invasions and occupations?

Quote:

What do you think of people who leave the country to support US invasions and occupations?

Who is the US invading and occupying Gandalf? Is this an example of the nonsense the swarthy darkie filled her head with?

You disagreed with my insistence that people who go over there to support ISIS are scum. Why is it suddenly not an issue when asked what you think of them?

freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 12:19pm:

Who is the US invading and occupying Gandalf?

;D

Seriously though, what do you think of people who signed up as contractors to support the occupiers of Iraq? Some of them were kidnapped and executed by militants. Scum?Deserved it?


freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 12:19pm:

You disagreed with my insistence that people who go over there to support ISIS are scum. Why is it suddenly not an issue when asked what you think of them?

I am not sympathetic towards people who support ISIS - and I'd even go so far as to say they are responsible for whatever happens to them. But I'm not going to pretend that all of them are sadists who are motivated by the prospect of inflicting torture and death on others - and therefore blanket label them all as "scum" who deserve to be tortured, raped or killed. People who delude themselves to ignore the facts in front of them, and take actions in accordance with such delusions are not automatically "scum" - even if their delusions contribute to the suffering of others. And they certainly don't deserve to be tortured, raped or murdered as a result. I don't view that for people who support ISIS, just as I don't view that for people who support US invasions and occupations.

Quote:

I am not sympathetic towards people who support ISIS - and I'd even go so far as to say they are responsible for whatever happens to them.

Wow Gandalf. Don't hold back now.


Quote:

But I'm not going to pretend that all of them are sadists who are motivated by the prospect of inflicting torture and death on others - and therefore blanket label them all as "scum" who deserve to be tortured, raped or killed. People who delude themselves to ignore the facts in front of them, and take actions in accordance with such delusions are not automatically "scum" - even if their delusions contribute to the suffering of others. And they certainly don't deserve to be tortured, raped or murdered as a result. I don't view that for people who support ISIS, just as I don't view that for people who support US invasions and occupations.

You have to be particularly committed to actually travel to a war zone to support ISIS. What do you think of them?

There is sooooo much wrong what gandalf just wrote

Maqqa wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 1:21pm:

There is sooooo much wrong what gandalf just wrote

Such as?

I can't see anything wrong with it.

freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 1:21pm:

You have to be particularly committed to actually travel to a war zone to support ISIS.

Did I say they weren't committed?

Maqqa wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 1:21pm:

There is sooooo much wrong what gandalf just wrote

Such as?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 12:40pm:

I am not sympathetic towards people who support ISIS - and I'd even go so far as to say they are responsible for whatever happens to them. But I'm not going to pretend that all of them are sadists who are motivated by the prospect of inflicting torture and death on others - and therefore blanket label them all as "scum" who deserve to be tortured, raped or killed. People who delude themselves to ignore the facts in front of them, and take actions in accordance with such delusions are not automatically "scum" - even if their delusions contribute to the suffering of others. And they certainly don't deserve to be tortured, raped or murdered as a result. I don't view that for people who support ISIS, just as I don't view that for people who support US invasions and occupations.

Lets be clear - ISIS is motivate by 3 things
(1) Revenge
(2) Conversion people to their version of Islam by force
(3) Establish an Independent country where they could rule

Look at my highlighted points

You can't achieve these 3 points without rape, torture and killing

So a blanket label of them being scum is correct

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 12:40pm:

Seriously though, what do you think of people who signed up as contractors to support the occupiers of Iraq? Some of them were kidnapped and executed by militants. Scum?Deserved it?

It's a job

The contractors accept it as a job and the associated risks

They know the risk - which is why they get paid so much

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 2:14pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 1:21pm: You have to be particularly committed to actually travel to a war zone to support ISIS. Did I say they weren't committed?

I was trying to make a distinction between them and "people who support ISIS, just as I don't view that for people who support US invasions and occupations."

I thought you might want to go beyond "not sympathetic" to them.

Maqqa wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 2:26pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 12:40pm: I am not sympathetic towards people who support ISIS - and I'd even go so far as to say they are responsible for whatever happens to them. But I'm not going to pretend that all of them are sadists who are motivated by the prospect of inflicting torture and death on others - and therefore blanket label them all as "scum" who deserve to be tortured, raped or killed. People who delude themselves to ignore the facts in front of them, and take actions in accordance with such delusions are not automatically "scum" - even if their delusions contribute to the suffering of others. And they certainly don't deserve to be tortured, raped or murdered as a result. I don't view that for people who support ISIS, just as I don't view that for people who support US invasions and occupations. Lets be clear - ISIS is motivate by 3 things (1) Revenge (2) Conversion people to their version of Islam by force (3) Establish an Independent country where they could rule Look at my highlighted points You can't achieve these 3 points without rape, torture and killing So a blanket label of them being scum is correct

"who deserve to be tortured, raped or killed"

If you believe that, you're no better than them.

freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 2:28pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 2:14pm: freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 1:21pm: You have to be particularly committed to actually travel to a war zone to support ISIS. Did I say they weren't committed? I was trying to make a distinction between them and "people who support ISIS, just as I don't view that for people who support US invasions and occupations." I thought you might want to go beyond "not sympathetic" to them.

I don't understand.

Never mind.

Don't you think that "not sympathetic" is a little restrained for criticism of people travelling to the middle east to support ISIS?

Would you say you are "not sympathetic" to Nazis?

Maqqa wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 2:27pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 12:40pm: Seriously though, what do you think of people who signed up as contractors to support the occupiers of Iraq? Some of them were kidnapped and executed by militants. Scum?Deserved it? It's a job The contractors accept it as a job and the associated risks They know the risk - which is why they get paid so much

There is little difference - the invasion and occupation of Iraq unleashed untold suffering on the Iraqi people. The people who accepted a job that helped keep the wheels of that occupation turning were every bit as complicit in the suffering of others as the women who accept a domestic role in sustaining the so called Islamic State.

Still, neither deserve to be raped, tortured or murdered.

Gandalf are you suggesting that support for ISIS is morally equivalent to support for US foreign policy?

freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 2:43pm:

Never mind. Don't you think that "not sympathetic" is a little restrained for criticism of people travelling to the middle east to support ISIS? Would you say you are "not sympathetic" to Nazis?

Is that all it is FD? You are a bit miffed that my language is not strong enough?

I guess you prefer "scum" who "deserve everything they get" - right?

I prefer scum. That is why I called them scum.

Would you also say you are "not sympathetic" to US foreign policy?

freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 2:51pm:

Gandalf are you suggesting that support for ISIS is morally equivalent to support for US foreign policy?

Not at all - its not nearly as bad.

Still, even contractors who supported an occupation that killed hundreds of thousands and displaced millions are not "scum" who deserve to be raped tortured or murdered in my book.

So ISIS is morally superior to the US?

Does that mean if you had to choose between the two, it would be ISIS?

freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 2:59pm:

So ISIS is morally superior to the US?

Very sneaky of you FD, thats not what I said and you know it.

US foreign policies, not "The US" - is far worse in terms of death and destruction caused than ISIS, thats just a simple statement of fact.

So ISIS is morally superior to US foreign policy?

Is death toll your only measure of this?

freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 3:16pm:

So ISIS is morally superior to US foreign policy?

Again, not what I said - but I understand your need to put words into my mouth. Saying that supporting a system that kills millions world-wide is morally far worse than supporting a system that kills thousands in a confined area - says nothing of the morality of the actual systems in question. Of course ISIS is not "morally superior" to the US policies - for the simple reason that if ISIS could be as destructive as the US then they no doubt would be.

You're in your element here aren't you FD. Lining up another quote for your wiki, or getting some juicy material for your next point scoring thread. Its quite pathetic.

What about your little firecracker here - your revelation that you believe certain women deserve to be raped, tortured and murdered? Surely another FD would get years of material from that one quote wouldn't they?


freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 3:16pm:

Is death toll your only measure of this?

What can I say, I'm a utilitarian.

Quote:

Saying that supporting a system that kills millions world-wide is morally far worse than supporting a system that kills thousands in a confined area - says nothing of the morality of the actual systems in question.

So what were you trying to say here?


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 2:56pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 2:51pm: Gandalf are you suggesting that support for ISIS is morally equivalent to support for US foreign policy? Not at all - its not nearly as bad.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 2:56pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 2:51pm: Gandalf are you suggesting that support for ISIS is morally equivalent to support for US foreign policy? Not at all - its not nearly as bad. Still, even contractors who supported an occupation that killed hundreds of thousands and displaced millions are not "scum" who deserve to be raped tortured or murdered in my book.

the 'hundreds of thousands' dead was muslims vs muslims.  it was not the Allies.  muslims have an apaling habit of murdering each other by the millions eg Iran vs Iraq and who can forget ISIS who ahve killed far more muslims than 'infidels'

before you criticise the west you need to take a good stock at murderous Islam.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 4:28pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 3:16pm: So ISIS is morally superior to US foreign policy? Again, not what I said - but I understand your need to put words into my mouth. Saying that supporting a system that kills millions world-wide is morally far worse than supporting a system that kills thousands in a confined area - says nothing of the morality of the actual systems in question. Of course ISIS is not "morally superior" to the US policies - for the simple reason that if ISIS could be as destructive as the US then they no doubt would be. You're in your element here aren't you FD. Lining up another quote for your wiki, or getting some juicy material for your next point scoring thread. Its quite pathetic. What about your little firecracker here - your revelation that you believe certain women deserve to be raped, tortured and murdered? Surely another FD would get years of material from that one quote wouldn't they? freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 3:16pm: Is death toll your only measure of this? What can I say, I'm a utilitarian.

what's this 'kills millions world-wide'  rubbish?  care to support that and pelase dont debase yourself by including muslim deaths at muslim hands.

freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 4:39pm:

So what were you trying to say here?

err precisely what you just quoted me saying above  :P

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 5:12pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 4:28pm: freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 3:16pm: So ISIS is morally superior to US foreign policy? Again, not what I said - but I understand your need to put words into my mouth. Saying that supporting a system that kills millions world-wide is morally far worse than supporting a system that kills thousands in a confined area - says nothing of the morality of the actual systems in question. Of course ISIS is not "morally superior" to the US policies - for the simple reason that if ISIS could be as destructive as the US then they no doubt would be. You're in your element here aren't you FD. Lining up another quote for your wiki, or getting some juicy material for your next point scoring thread. Its quite pathetic. What about your little firecracker here - your revelation that you believe certain women deserve to be raped, tortured and murdered? Surely another FD would get years of material from that one quote wouldn't they? freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 3:16pm: Is death toll your only measure of this? What can I say, I'm a utilitarian. what's this 'kills millions world-wide'  rubbish?  care to support that and pelase dont debase yourself by including muslim deaths at muslim hands.

It was use of language, you know...expressions, like an obvious exaggeration to make a point.  You often lecture us on that, so I'm surprised to see your silly comment. Did I just say....surprised?

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 5:11pm:

the 'hundreds of thousands' dead was muslims vs muslims.  it was not the Allies.  muslims have an apaling habit of murdering each other by the millions eg Iran vs Iraq and who can forget ISIS who ahve killed far more muslims than 'infidels'

When the Nazi top brass were tried at Nuremberg, the "supreme crime" was not the crime of killing millions of Russians and Poles, or even killing 6 million jews - it was the crime of 'aggressive war' - invading other countries unprovoked from which all the other atrocities spawned from. Put simply, no aggressive war, and there is no holocaust and no mass slaughter of Russians, Poles etc.

Invading Iraq is another case of 'aggressive war' - from which all the subsequent atrocities spawned from. Even if it wasn't the US doing all the slaughtering, they enabled it all through engaging in aggressive war: no invasion of Iraq, no sunni-shiite civil war, and no ISIS.

And I'm only going to make this point once - I've been round this merry-go-round too many times over many years - and I'm not doing it again.

Aussie wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 5:18pm:

It was use of language, you know...expressions, like an obvious exaggeration to make a point.

not at all. 2-4 million dead Vietnamese alone. And thats just one of the many needless aggressive wars the US has launched around the world since the end of WWII.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 5:34pm:

Aussie wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 5:18pm: It was use of language, you know...expressions, like an obvious exaggeration to make a point.  not at all. 2-4 million dead Vietnamese alone. And thats just one of the many needless aggressive wars the US has launched around the world since the end of WWII.

I'm surprised to see that figure.  I guess you would not have asserted it if you could not prove it.

Aussie wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 5:18pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 5:12pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 4:28pm: freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 3:16pm: So ISIS is morally superior to US foreign policy? Again, not what I said - but I understand your need to put words into my mouth. Saying that supporting a system that kills millions world-wide is morally far worse than supporting a system that kills thousands in a confined area - says nothing of the morality of the actual systems in question. Of course ISIS is not "morally superior" to the US policies - for the simple reason that if ISIS could be as destructive as the US then they no doubt would be. You're in your element here aren't you FD. Lining up another quote for your wiki, or getting some juicy material for your next point scoring thread. Its quite pathetic. What about your little firecracker here - your revelation that you believe certain women deserve to be raped, tortured and murdered? Surely another FD would get years of material from that one quote wouldn't they? freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 3:16pm: Is death toll your only measure of this? What can I say, I'm a utilitarian. what's this 'kills millions world-wide'  rubbish?  care to support that and pelase dont debase yourself by including muslim deaths at muslim hands. It was use of language, you know...expressions, like an obvious exaggeration to make a point.  You often lecture us on that, so I'm surprised to see your silly comment. Did I just say....surprised?

just for u

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polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 5:34pm:

Aussie wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 5:18pm: It was use of language, you know...expressions, like an obvious exaggeration to make a point.  not at all. 2-4 million dead Vietnamese alone. And thats just one of the many needless aggressive wars the US has launched around the world since the end of WWII.

would you care to tell us who STARTED the vietnam war?  or the korean war?  typically, you wil find the US doesnt start wars but instead ENDS them

get ur history right.

I worked with Assyrians who had escaped on foot over the northern mountains at night while Saddam's murder squads were hunting for Assyrians in the valleys below.

I wish you could have had a chat with them. They had stories to tell. The US invasion was D-Day for them - just as it was for the Iraqi Marsh Arabs.

Gandalf - your logic is not only flawed, but is a cowardly rationalisation that attempts to shift the MORAL blame for the internecine barbarities that happened in Iraq as the consequence of the Coalition of the Willing having deposed a Police State dictatorship which then allowed the citizens to act freely without fear of retribution from Saddam's minions and henchmen.

What happened was cathartic in terms of the Iraqis sorting themselves out with no one to stop them. 

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 5:46pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 5:34pm: Aussie wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 5:18pm: It was use of language, you know...expressions, like an obvious exaggeration to make a point.  not at all. 2-4 million dead Vietnamese alone. And thats just one of the many needless aggressive wars the US has launched around the world since the end of WWII. would you care to tell us who STARTED the vietnam war?  or the korean war?  typically, you wil find the US doesnt start wars but instead ENDS them get ur history right.

Probably the French, but that seems hardly relevant to what gandalf is arguing.

Aussie wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 5:50pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 5:46pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 5:34pm: Aussie wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 5:18pm: It was use of language, you know...expressions, like an obvious exaggeration to make a point.  not at all. 2-4 million dead Vietnamese alone. And thats just one of the many needless aggressive wars the US has launched around the world since the end of WWII. would you care to tell us who STARTED the vietnam war?  or the korean war?  typically, you wil find the US doesnt start wars but instead ENDS them get ur history right. Probably the French, but that seems hardly relevant to what gandalf is arguing.

it was the Norths invasion of the south that started it. the allies responded.

gandalf is not really arguing at all. he is trying to gloss over the eternal wars between muslim sects that get blamed on any westerner walking past the genocide.

Gandalf thinks the wars were unprovoked?

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 5:46pm:

would you care to tell us who STARTED the vietnam war?

You're right Longy - the French started it, after the Vietnamese had the hide to want independence from French occupation. After the French were kicked out, the Americans just picked up where the French left off - fighting to deny the will of the Vietnamese people to unite their country.

Maqqa wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 6:01pm:

Gandalf thinks the wars were unprovoked?

Of course not Maqqa - those pesky tinted people had the hide to want to be economically independent from the US - thats a provocation if ever I've seen one!

Quote:

err precisely what you just quoted me saying above

No wonder you didn't quote the whole post then. It sounds like you are saying something about the morality of it, then a few posts later insisting you are saying nothing about the morality.


freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2016 at 4:39pm:

Quote: Saying that supporting a system that kills millions world-wide is morally far worse than supporting a system that kills thousands in a confined area - says nothing of the morality of the actual systems in question. So what were you trying to say here? polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 2:56pm: freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2016 at 2:51pm: Gandalf are you suggesting that support for ISIS is morally equivalent to support for US foreign policy? Not at all - its not nearly as bad.