Pleased watch 730 report to see how muzzies treat a female lawyer

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2015/s4423687.htm

ALEX MANN: Back in Sydney, an emergency AFIC meeting is heating up.

AFIC's lawyer emerged in tears. She says she was physically intimidated by supporters of Amjad Mehboob.

http://imgur.com/QI42Xpe

dirty filthy lying muzzies


Quote:

.......................AMJAD MEHBOOB: The facts are not accurately depicted in that. First of all, ... ALEX MANN: So this accounting firm, the Deloitte Access Economics, that does forensic audits for the Federal Government, they've got it wrong, did they? AMJAD MEHBOOB: Yes. They got it wrong........... ......................'some individuals in AFIC felt that this was a - that this was a potential source of income'............... .............The Federal Government won't confirm continued funding until they can be sure that the schools are truly clear of AFIC's influence. A final decision is due in early April..........

and gutless federal govt.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2015/s4423687.htm

AFIC is the problem and the federal govt is making renewed funding conditional on the school breaking all ties with afic. I fail to see how that is being gutless

How is the rest of the Australian Muslim community treating AFIC? Do they share your view that it is normal to confuse religious organisations with businesses?

Should we expect another Muslim representative body to form and start doing the same thing?


Quote:

In the end, both sides exit the hotel claiming victory, meaning that AFIC technically has two rival executive committees.

LOL, another schism.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12^th, 2016 at 6:58am:

AFIC is the problem and the federal govt is making renewed funding conditional on the school breaking all ties with afic. I fail to see how that is being gutless

And Keysar Trad is involved now.
Bit of a worry?

freediver wrote on Mar 12^th, 2016 at 7:45am:

How is the rest of the Australian Muslim community treating AFIC? Do they share your view that it is normal to confuse religious organisations with businesses?

The muslim community is rightly outraged at AFIC. Its probably why they have already replaced it with an external iterim council - or at least attempting to.

Also, are you still telling me the idea of organised religion becoming big business is completely alien to you? Have you discovered the catholic church yet?

Are you saying this sort of thing is normal Gandalf?

If Muslims do consider this normal, why would we expect anything different from whatever replacement organisation is put in place?

freediver wrote on Mar 12^th, 2016 at 11:23am:

Are you saying this sort of thing is normal Gandalf?

LOL of course it is FD. Have you discovered the catholic church yet?


freediver wrote on Mar 12^th, 2016 at 11:23am:

If Muslims do consider this normal, why would we expect anything different from whatever replacement organisation is put in place?

You shouldn't. Which is why all the affected schools are, as we speak, attempting to break all ties with AFIC and set up their own local bodies free of any external "Islamic" bodies. Its not so easy though, as for one thing the school grounds are owned by AFIC.

Quote:

You shouldn't. Which is why all the affected schools are, as we speak, attempting to break all ties with AFIC and set up their own local bodies free of any external "Islamic" bodies. Its not so easy though, as for one thing the school grounds are owned by AFIC.

I think you'll find the only reason they are attempting to break ties with AFIC is that the government has made this a condition of any further funding. With even self declared progressive Muslims like you insisting this is normal, it's hard to interpret it as a sign they want to prevent this happening again under a different brand - beyond the unfortunate "getting caught" aspect.

Why are Muslims ignoring what to me seems like a more fundamental issue here - religious institutions being treated as businesses? And before you blurt out 'Catholic Church' I don't see any catholic schools on the chopping block or catholics insisting it is normal for the church to be indistinguishable from a business and for religious leaders to be so transparently out to line their own pockets.

Is it something to do with the fundamental Islamic rejection of the concept of separation of church and state? If Muhammed used Islam to build an empire, it is a bit hard for Muslims, even you, to criticise today's Muslims for using it to turn a profit and build a business empire.

freediver wrote on Mar 12^th, 2016 at 11:46am:

I think you'll find the only reason they are attempting to break ties with AFIC is that the government has made this a condition of any further funding. With even self declared progressive Muslims like you insisting this is normal, it's hard to interpret it as a sign they want to prevent this happening again under a different brand

What an absurd thing to say - that parents and friends of students are not interested in whether or not they get screwed over again and threatened with school shutdown. Do you think we enjoy not knowing whether our kids will have a school in two weeks, and madly trying to run around looking for another school they can go to? And you you seriously think we are not pissed off with the people who are responsible - just because we acknowledge the bleeding obvious - that organised religions invariably act like businesses.


freediver wrote on Mar 12^th, 2016 at 11:46am:

Why are Muslims ignoring what to me seems like a more fundamental issue here - religious institutions being treated as businesses? And before you blurt out 'Catholic Church' I don't see any catholic schools on the chopping block or catholics insisting it is normal for the church to be indistinguishable from a business and for religious leaders to be so transparently out to line their own pockets.

Who says they are ignoring it? The greed and corruption of AFIC has been front and centre of the affected muslim's grievances. Trust me, I'm one of them. But the simple fact of the matter is that it is normal for religious organisations to run themselves like a business. And this is not unreasonable as religious entities do need to create their own wealth to support all the institutions that they run. You can say they shouldn't be for profit, but the reality is its impractical not to, and they need a business mindset to survive. And I will blurt out catholic church, because this issue is front and centre with them too. George Pell is known to have run a very sophisticated and well organised protection racket for pedophiles that includes putting quasi-legal structures in place to ensure victims are not fairly compensated, and to compel them to not take legal action against them. I don't see how this is any worse that what AFIC is doing - both are ultimately a product of protecting business interests over the interests of their flock - and both are equally reprehensible.

Quote:

What an absurd thing to say - that parents and friends of students are not interested in whether or not they get screwed over again and threatened with school shutdown.

School shutdown - bad

Muslim institutions acting as businesses - oh that's normal. Catholic Church. Pedophiles. Alien abductions.


Quote:

Do you think we enjoy not knowing whether our kids will have a school in two weeks, and madly trying to run around looking for another school they can go to?

I think the fact it was allowed to get so bad reflects a more fundamental problem, but the response amounts to little more than complaining about getting caught.


Quote:

And you you seriously think we are not pissed off with the people who are responsible - just because we acknowledge the bleeding obvious - that organised religions invariably act like businesses.

Muslim ones certainly do, but I consider this far from inevitable for normal religious institutions.


Quote:

You can say they shouldn't be for profit, but the reality is its impractical not to

Running on a not-for-profit basis is considered by most people as a fundamental pre-requisite for any charity, social or religious institution. Even sporting clubs are expected to do this. I am a member of one with significant spare funds that survive through disagreement and change of executive without anyone raiding the kitty or deciding the funds should go to anything other than the sport they represent. Having such institutions is an important part of civilised society.


Quote:

and they need a business mindset to survive

Crap. You don't have to be a good businessman to not raid the kitty. You just have to be honest (I know, you cannot possibly expect this from Muslim leaders, and scratch your head that others would be so naive....). It was the "business mindset" that is now destroying the AFIC (I hope), and up to 6 schools.


Quote:

I don't see how this is any worse that what AFIC is doing

I did not claim it is, but a profit seeking mindset is not the fundamental cause of the pedophilia problems facing the church, or even the church's handing of the matter, and you have demonstrated some interesting mental gymnastics to make the link.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12^th, 2016 at 11:20am:

freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2016 at 7:45am: How is the rest of the Australian Muslim community treating AFIC? Do they share your view that it is normal to confuse religious organisations with businesses? The muslim community is rightly outraged at AFIC.

WHo knew?!?


They are outraged but they still send their kids to the corrupt and fraudulent schools.

Soren wrote on Mar 12^th, 2016 at 1:45pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12th, 2016 at 11:20am: freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2016 at 7:45am: How is the rest of the Australian Muslim community treating AFIC? Do they share your view that it is normal to confuse religious organisations with businesses? The muslim community is rightly outraged at AFIC.  WHo knew?!? They are outraged but they still send their kids to the corrupt and fraudulent schools.

And not a bit out outrage over this, Those rascally widdle wahabists.

Extremist elements

Majzoub was an imam who taught Islamic Studies at Unity Grammar in south-west Sydney, "a really positive role model" popular with students, according to principal Walid Ali.

O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends," instructs a Koranic quotation on Mustapha Majzoub's Facebook tribute page.


However, Saudi money continues to pay for scholarships to train Australian teachers of Islam in Saudi Arabia and Saudi students in Australia, grants to build mosques, subsidies for imams' salaries and Arabic media,




http://www.smh.com.au/good-weekend/the-controversies-raging-inside-our-islamic-schools-20151012-gk790z.html

freediver wrote on Mar 12^th, 2016 at 1:13pm:

I did not claim it is, but a profit seeking mindset is not the fundamental cause of the pedophilia problems facing the church, or even the church's handing of the matter, and you have demonstrated some interesting mental gymnastics to make the link.

The only mental gymnastics going on here is in making the case that the church's handling of pedophilia had nothing to do with concern for church profits.

Soren wrote on Mar 12^th, 2016 at 1:45pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12th, 2016 at 11:20am: freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2016 at 7:45am: How is the rest of the Australian Muslim community treating AFIC? Do they share your view that it is normal to confuse religious organisations with businesses? The muslim community is rightly outraged at AFIC.  WHo knew?!? They are outraged but they still send their kids to the corrupt and fraudulent schools.

The schools are not corrupt, they are victims of corruption.

freediver wrote on Mar 12^th, 2016 at 7:45am:

How is the rest of the Australian Muslim community treating AFIC?

G, any chance you could find some Muslims who do support AFIC?

FD asked you a question.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12^th, 2016 at 6:28pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 12th, 2016 at 1:45pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12th, 2016 at 11:20am: freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2016 at 7:45am: How is the rest of the Australian Muslim community treating AFIC? Do they share your view that it is normal to confuse religious organisations with businesses? The muslim community is rightly outraged at AFIC.  WHo knew?!? They are outraged but they still send their kids to the corrupt and fraudulent schools. The schools are not corrupt, they are victims of corruption.

So the schools stumbled blindly into a situation that could get them closed down?

Answer that one too, G. FD’s got you this time.

freediver wrote on Mar 12^th, 2016 at 9:33pm:

So the schools stumbled blindly into a situation that could get them closed down?

Literally, yes. The bookeeping is handled directly by AFIC with no transparency by the schools. The AFIC constitutions dictates the schools are not allowed to be involved. And they have all the legal rights - they own the grounds and they control the funding. Schools need a) funding and b) grounds, and when AFIC is the only body able to provide those resources, what choice to the schools have when they can't provide it themselves? And the time AFIC stepped in there was no corruption going on, and for many years they served the schools well. And by the time this all boiled over, the schools were legally and financially bound to AFIC.

I found out about the impending closing down of my school when it was reported by ABC news. Its fine for you and Soren to pontificate about sinister/stupid muslims continuing to send their kids to corrupt schools, but for muslim parents looking for a muslim school to send their children, and they see literally the only one in town that is fully registered by the government, with (then) full backing from both governments, and no hint from anyone that there is any sort of irregularities going on - it comes across as a bit rich.

So will you have to go to another school now?

freediver wrote on Mar 13^th, 2016 at 8:16am:

So will you have to go to another school now?

Unless we can raise 1.5 million by the end of the month - yes.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 13^th, 2016 at 8:08am:

freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2016 at 9:33pm: So the schools stumbled blindly into a situation that could get them closed down? Literally, yes. The bookeeping is handled directly by AFIC with no transparency by the schools. The AFIC constitutions dictates the schools are not allowed to be involved. And they have all the legal rights - they own the grounds and they control the funding. Schools need a) funding and b) grounds, and when AFIC is the only body able to provide those resources, what choice to the schools have when they can't provide it themselves? And the time AFIC stepped in there was no corruption going on, and for many years they served the schools well. And by the time this all boiled over, the schools were legally and financially bound to AFIC. I found out about the impending closing down of my school when it was reported by ABC news. Its fine for you and Soren to pontificate about sinister/stupid muslims continuing to send their kids to corrupt schools, but for muslim parents looking for a muslim school to send their children, and they see literally the only one in town that is fully registered by the government, with (then) full backing from both governments, and no hint from anyone that there is any sort of irregularities going on - it comes across as a bit rich.

Muslims shafting other Muslims.  Ummah, innit?  What's new?? Muslim Muslimi lupus est, to coin a phrase. Man is wolf to man but Muslims are wolves to Muslims even worse. The corrupt and fraudulent practices widespread in every Muslim country are brought to the West as 'cultural enrichment'. This is typical Orwellian doublespeak, it's real meaning is cultural degradation.

Muslims are simple one of the most visible indicators of the failure of multiculturalism and the lies about the positives of 'diversity' and 'cultural enrichment'.  You don't need to import Muslims to have a recipe for a good garlic chicken and fatoush but you must have Muslims to have the threat of the closure of 6 Islamic schools due to corruption and dishonesty.
Cuisine versus thorough and ingrained corruption - the balance of multicultural positives and negatives.

To be fair, you don't even have the cuisine with Islanders.

Soren wrote on Mar 13^th, 2016 at 9:16am:

Muslims shafting other Muslims. Ummah, innit?  What's new??

cause it never happens in the Christian world, right?  :D :D :D

John Smith wrote on Mar 13^th, 2016 at 9:24am:

Soren wrote on Mar 13th, 2016 at 9:16am: Muslims shafting other Muslims. Ummah, innit?  What's new?? cause it never happens in the Christian world, right?  :D :D :D

Well, show us an example where a Christian organisation was so corrupt that it threatened the closure of 6 schools with thousands of students.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 13^th, 2016 at 8:33am:

freediver wrote on Mar 13th, 2016 at 8:16am: So will you have to go to another school now? Unless we can raise 1.5 million by the end of the month - yes.

Good, one not paid for by us taxpayers so muzzies can fund terrorists.

The govt are inept to give a shekel to any muslim.
Of course it will be 'misused'.

The AFIC have made numerous submissions to Parliament asking the government to give muslims sharia law with legal pluralism in Australia.

Be more than just threats if the government caves in to give them sharia law.

The Buddhists made one submission to Parliament regarding our laws, they said they were happy with our laws and no need to change anything for them.

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 13^th, 2016 at 12:08pm:

The AFIC have made numerous submissions to Parliament asking the government to give muslims sharia law with legal pluralism in Australia. Be more than just threats if the government caves in to give them sharia law. The Buddhists made one submission to Parliament regarding our laws, they said they were happy with our laws and no need to change anything for them.

Do you remember the time when 1000 Buddhists raged through Hyde Park incensed at a movie about Buddha?

Oh that's right, it wasn't Buddhists!!

---

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 13^th, 2016 at 12:08pm:

The AFIC have made numerous submissions to Parliament asking the government to give muslims sharia law with legal pluralism in Australia. Be more than just threats if the government caves in to give them sharia law. The Buddhists made one submission to Parliament regarding our laws, they said they were happy with our laws and no need to change anything for them.

So, AFIC has stolen from the taxpayer for many years, and officially stated they will never assimilate and they want their own islamic state inside Aust, paid by us while they kill us.

Buddhists have said, 'we love it here. '

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 13^th, 2016 at 8:33am:

freediver wrote on Mar 13th, 2016 at 8:16am: So will you have to go to another school now? Unless we can raise 1.5 million by the end of the month - yes.

Would you normally expect the school admin to be more on top of this sort of thing than the students?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Mar 13^th, 2016 at 10:18am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 13th, 2016 at 8:33am: freediver wrote on Mar 13th, 2016 at 8:16am: So will you have to go to another school now? Unless we can raise 1.5 million by the end of the month - yes. Good, one not paid for by us taxpayers so muzzies can fund terrorists. The govt are inept to give a shekel to any muslim. Of course it will be 'misused'.

You're in luck sprint as we typically don't use shekels in Australia.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 13^th, 2016 at 8:33am:

freediver wrote on Mar 13th, 2016 at 8:16am: So will you have to go to another school now? Unless we can raise 1.5 million by the end of the month - yes.

Well, I hope you don't get the money and all those little Muslims get to be sent to mainstream Australian schools.

Or Catholic schools. Or Anglican schools. Jewish schools.  Anything but segregationalist, jihadi Islamic schools.

Soren wrote on Mar 13^th, 2016 at 9:34pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 13th, 2016 at 8:33am: freediver wrote on Mar 13th, 2016 at 8:16am: So will you have to go to another school now? Unless we can raise 1.5 million by the end of the month - yes. Well, I hope you don't get the money and all those little Muslims get to be sent to mainstream Australian schools. Or Catholic schools. Or Anglican schools. Jewish schools.  Anything but segregationalist, jihadi Islamic schools.

Educate them.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 13^th, 2016 at 8:08am:

freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2016 at 9:33pm: So the schools stumbled blindly into a situation that could get them closed down? Literally, yes. The bookeeping is handled directly by AFIC with no transparency by the schools. The AFIC constitutions dictates the schools are not allowed to be involved. And they have all the legal rights - they own the grounds and they control the funding. Schools need a) funding and b) grounds, and when AFIC is the only body able to provide those resources, what choice to the schools have when they can't provide it themselves? And the time AFIC stepped in there was no corruption going on, and for many years they served the schools well. And by the time this all boiled over, the schools were legally and financially bound to AFIC. I found out about the impending closing down of my school when it was reported by ABC news. Its fine for you and Soren to pontificate about sinister/stupid muslims continuing to send their kids to corrupt schools, but for muslim parents looking for a muslim school to send their children, and they see literally the only one in town that is fully registered by the government, with (then) full backing from both governments, and no hint from anyone that there is any sort of irregularities going on - it comes across as a bit rich.

I think it is a bit rich for you to suggest that Muslim school administrations had no idea where their own money was going. It looks like a simple case of scapegoating in order to avoid dealing with the more fundamental problems.

If not, can we expect these school administrations to be duped again? Should we be concerned about where any future funds might end up? Is it inevitable that the next body set up to manage funds will start acting as a business, or worse, rather than how non-Muslims would expect a not-for-profit to act?

freediver wrote on Mar 14^th, 2016 at 7:01pm:

I think it is a bit rich for you to suggest that Muslim school administrations had no idea where their own money was going.

They knew exactly where it was going - AFIC. It then went towards paying teachers wages, facilities, ground maintenance etc. The schools weren't being deprived, they basically get everything they need. But somewhere along the way the government says the money wasn't being managed properly. I don't know what that means, and it seems no one else does either. As far as I can see the schools were not being deprived, they are well resourced and the teachers are happy. It suggests to me that if AFIC really was pocketing some of the commonwealth funds, yet there was still enough going to the schools, then possibly the commonwealth was paying too much. But that shouldn't be a surprise - government funding of these things are invariably arbitrary and inefficient. In any case, the upshot of it was the commonwealth funding was removed.


freediver wrote on Mar 14^th, 2016 at 7:01pm:

If not, can we expect these school administrations to be duped again? Should we be concerned about where any future funds might end up? Is it inevitable that the next body set up to manage funds will start acting as a business, or worse, rather than how non-Muslims would expect a not-for-profit to act?

Canberra Islamic School is in the process of setting up their own local funding, just as their sister school Taqwa has done, and as the Adelaide school has done, and as I believe Malek Fahd is in the process is doing. AFIC is the problem, there is no evidence or any reason to believe local community funding will be a problem - as it has worked very successfully for Taqwa and Adelaide.

http://www.smh.com.au/good-weekend/the-controversies-raging-inside-our-islamic-schools-20151012-gk790z.html

Islamic organisations in Western countries operate like secret honour based societies. This is a small example of how things are done 'Islamically'. There is excessive deference, group think, lack of accountability, paralysis about bringing other Muslims to account lest they are criticised in front of others or in public, bullying, corruption. Things are done like this in every aspect of life in Islamic countries and communities everywhere.


Rule of law, transparency, accountability, checks and balances, separation of powers and functions - they are missing to some degree, often entirely, in the Islamic context. This is as good an example of Islamic cultural difference as any. Islamic organiosations in Western countries, in addition, operate like secret honour based societies.

And to the great shame of Western authorities everywhere, they treat Muslim organisations with kid's gloves: parents protested in front of one of the school in 2012 about corrupt practices but nothing happened. Mustn't follow up lest they call the police islamophobic. The same attitude is evident in relation to the UK Muslim rape gangs.

This is what happens when Muslim want special treatment as well as full inclusion. There should be independent, non-Muslim people on the AFIC and school boards. Every normal organisation has independent board members - but Muslims boards are stacked to let the bully boys drive their agendas.  Just for that AFIC should be disbanded pronto.

Quote:

They knew exactly where it was going - AFIC. It then went towards paying teachers wages, facilities, ground maintenance etc. The schools weren't being deprived, they basically get everything they need. But somewhere along the way the government says the money wasn't being managed properly. I don't know what that means, and it seems no one else does either.

You offered some suggestions earlier about what it meant. Do you now think the government is tricking the Muslims, or is it just not possible for the Muslims to comply?


Quote:

In any case, the upshot of it was the commonwealth funding was removed.

hooray!


Quote:

Canberra Islamic School is in the process of setting up their own local funding, just as their sister school Taqwa has done, and as the Adelaide school has done, and as I believe Malek Fahd is in the process is doing. AFIC is the problem, there is no evidence or any reason to believe local community funding will be a problem - as it has worked very successfully for Taqwa and Adelaide.

So basically this sort of behaviour is inevitable and to be expected, but it won't happen again?

Where do you get the idea I think its inevitable and expected FD?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12^th, 2016 at 11:28am:

freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2016 at 11:23am: Are you saying this sort of thing is normal Gandalf? LOL of course it is FD.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12^th, 2016 at 11:28am:

freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2016 at 11:23am: If Muslims do consider this normal, why would we expect anything different from whatever replacement organisation is put in place? You shouldn't.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12^th, 2016 at 12:27pm:

But the simple fact of the matter is that it is normal for religious organisations to run themselves like a business.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12^th, 2016 at 12:27pm:

You can say they shouldn't be for profit, but the reality is its impractical not to, and they need a business mindset to survive.

Thanks FD.

Have another go. This time try and find where I said that mismanagement and corruption of Islamic or religious schools is inevitable and expected.

Good point Gandalf. You went to great effort to keep changing the topic to catholic pedophilia scandals.

Should we expect anything different from whatever replacement organisation is put in place?

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 8:55pm:

Should we expect anything different from whatever replacement organisation is put in place?

There is no "replacement organisation" being put in place - thats what I've been trying to say. They are transferring to local community control.

>:(
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 17^th, 2016 at 6:43am:

freediver wrote on Mar 16th, 2016 at 8:55pm: Should we expect anything different from whatever replacement organisation is put in place? There is no "replacement organisation" being put in place - thats what I've been trying to say. They are transferring to local community control.

Sinister.

I blame Islam.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 17^th, 2016 at 6:43am:

freediver wrote on Mar 16th, 2016 at 8:55pm: Should we expect anything different from whatever replacement organisation is put in place? There is no "replacement organisation" being put in place - thats what I've been trying to say. They are transferring to local community control.

Will this "local community control" take the form of an organisation that replaces AFIC? Or will be be a disorganised free-for-all (that will not misappropriate any funds...).

You are making an extra effort to avoid giving a straight answer today Gandalf.

freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2016 at 7:18pm:

Will this "local community control" take the form of an organisation that replaces AFIC? Or will be be a disorganised free-for-all (that will not misappropriate any funds...).

Schools are run by a school board. Until now the boards have been AFIC controlled. We are in the process of selecting a new board free of AFIC control.

Like I said, there is no "replacement" to AFIC.

So how do I get a straight answer Gandalf?

Should we expect anything different from whatever replacement* organisation is put in place?

*replacing AFIC by taking on the same role, but without actually replacing it

How many different ways can i say there is no replacement organisation? There is a school board and that is it. No longer is there an external organisation controlling the board.

Ah. So it was replaced with an internal organisation that didn't replace it?

Can I get a straight answer now?

What the faark do you want me to say FD? You want me to name a non-existent organisation?

There is a school board being elected as we speak. Is that what you mean? It is being elected by parents and friends of the school,  Is a school board usually known as an "organisation"? I certainly wouldn't describe it like that.  There is no external organisation controlling the new board like there was before, thats the point - there literally is no replacement for AFIC. Geddit yet??

Thanks for the update Gandalf. A yes or no will suffice.

Should we expect anything different from whatever replacement organisation is put in place?

still not comprehending the words "there is no replacement organisation" yet FD?

Are you asking about the school board?

Has it sunk in yet that you are asking about how a non-existent organisation will perform?

freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2016 at 10:34pm:

Ah. So it was replaced with an internal organisation that didn't replace it? Can I get a straight answer now?

not if you are asking a muslim

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 18^th, 2016 at 10:23am:

still not comprehending the words "there is no replacement organisation" yet FD? Are you asking about the school board? Has it sunk in yet that you are asking about how a non-existent organisation will perform?

I am asking about how you expect it will perform when it does exist. After all, I am sure these Muslims are trying very hard to get this mess sorted out.

Is your problem that you don't think a school board is an organisation? Is that why you refuse to answer? Or do you merely hope that Muslims can solve all the money issues by being completely disorganised in their management of millions of dollars in government funding?

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2016 at 9:58am:

Is your problem that you don't think a school board is an organisation? Is that why you refuse to answer?

Yes, a school board is not an "organisation" - at least not like what you were attempting to frame it as - as a "replacement" for AFIC. And I am not refusing to answer - I already stated long back that there is no reason, nor any evidence from existing examples such as Canberra Taqwa school and Adelaide Islamic School - to suspect that locally run boards (local "organisations" if you really insist) would mismanage things like AFIC run schools.

Can you explain the difference between the stance you are taking now and what you said previously?


freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 6:36pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12th, 2016 at 11:28am: freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2016 at 11:23am: Are you saying this sort of thing is normal Gandalf? LOL of course it is FD. polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12th, 2016 at 11:28am: freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2016 at 11:23am: If Muslims do consider this normal, why would we expect anything different from whatever replacement organisation is put in place? You shouldn't. polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12th, 2016 at 12:27pm: But the simple fact of the matter is that it is normal for religious organisations to run themselves like a business. polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12th, 2016 at 12:27pm: You can say they shouldn't be for profit, but the reality is its impractical not to, and they need a business mindset to survive.

No difference. That would be your reading comprehension again. Try reading the first sentence of my previous post to start with. That should help you.

So Muslims are perfectly capable of running a school board without swindling the money, but if they do this as part of a Muslim religious organisation, the money is going to disappear?

Is that the distinction you are trying to make?

The distinction I made between a big religious organisation (ie AFIC) externally running their institutions (such as schools) as businesses and locally owned and controlled school boards couldn't have been clearer.

You see, the reason you are having such difficulties here is that you can't (or refuse) to see any distinctions where muslims are involved. To you we're just a great big homogenous group of "muslims" - all sinister and all corrupt by default. Thats why you rhetorically ask me why the "replacement organisation" will be different. I say rhetorically, because thats exactly what it is - a rhetorical question. You are really stating something as fact - that any other "muslims" that take over are naturally going to be just as bad, since, well you know, we're muslims. So it then becomes a burden on me to disprove the natural order. Your line of inquiry can be summarised as 'muslims are naturally sinister and corrupt - so explain to me how this other group of muslims will be any different'. No doubt you will retort by saying it was me who came up with the idea that this behaviour is normal and inevitable. And of course by doing so you would once again get a Class A Fail for reading comprehension - since my point was about 'AFIC like organisations', big religious national, and often trans-national bodies being run like corporations who run their institutions for profit.

And naturally you see no difference between these bodies and local communities who take control of their school - for their community. We are all muslims - 'grinning muslims' as you so offensively put it some time ago, all with a hive mind and all conspiring together to be corrupt. AFIC will simply be replaced by AFIC  - local communities are by default as guilty as AFIC quite simply because - they are AFIC as far as you're concerned. Never mind trying to argue the proven track record of locally run schools - we are all AFIC. And thats why you ask the questions you ask - of course it makes no sense that replacing sinister muslims with sinister muslims would make any difference.

all muslims belong to the same cult.

this cult wants to control every aspect of society.
this cult demands every other society be destroyed.
this cult is islam.

I thought you were boycotting this forum sprint.

Quote:

You see, the reason you are having such difficulties here is that you can't (or refuse) to see any distinctions where muslims are involved. To you we're just a great big homogenous group of "muslims" - all sinister and all corrupt by default. Thats why you rhetorically ask me why the "replacement organisation" will be different. I say rhetorically, because thats exactly what it is - a rhetorical question. You are really stating something as fact - that any other "muslims" that take over are naturally going to be just as bad, since, well you know, we're muslims.

No Gandalf, I was genuinely surprised to see you argue that corruption is inevitable and to be expected from religious organisations, and that they actually need to be run as a business - despite the current example which will hopefully destroy AFIC. It makes no sense to me, so the distinction you are making is far from obvious.


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So it then becomes a burden on me to disprove the natural order. Your line of inquiry can be summarised as 'muslims are naturally sinister and corrupt - so explain to me how this other group of muslims will be any different'.

Actually Gandalf this was your argument. Do you remember all the references you made to the catholic church to try to prove your point?


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No doubt you will retort by saying it was me who came up with the idea that this behaviour is normal and inevitable.

Is that incorrect?


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And of course by doing so you would once again get a Class A Fail for reading comprehension - since my point was about 'AFIC like organisations', big religious national, and often trans-national bodies being run like corporations who run their institutions for profit.

Ah. Was profit written into the AFIC constitution?


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And naturally you see no difference between these bodies and local communities who take control of their school - for their community.

I previously gave examples of such local organisations to counter your 'inevitable corruption' argument. Did it never occur to you to point this out before? Or did you only just come up with it?


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We are all muslims - 'grinning muslims' as you so offensively put it some time ago, all with a hive mind and all conspiring together to be corrupt.

Where have I seen this "hive mind and all conspiring together" thing before Gandalf? Was it less offensive when you said it?

FD, when you're caught out, do you ever admit you're wrong?

I'm curious. I'd love your answer.

No answer - of course. It seems like a worthy question to me, given the 2007 FD morphed seamlessly into the current FD with a whole new set of values and rhetorical practices to match.

And during this transition, a fastidious cover-up of any mistakes and a complete unwillingness to honestly discuss a personal point of view. You know, "spin".

Admitting mistakes actually makes you more believable. It shows you have integrity. It shows that you're interested in the truth as opposed to the narcissistic project of ego worship.

You don't need to admit mistakes to make others aware of them. We can all spot a cover-up, a retreat, an evasion and piles of excuses. I've never really understood this - wouldn't it be easier to just own up to a mistake and move on? Not only does it show you're interested in the truth, it saves pages of tapdancing that make you look even worse.

More importantly, however, acknowledging your own mistakes help to refine your own worldview, but this is an existential question. Are we here to learn and adapt our thinking, or are we here to promote propaganda?

Questions questions.

And, of course, no answer.

Why are Muslims migrating to non-Muslim countries in such large numbers?  We don't see non-Muslims migrating to Muslim countries at a similar rate?

What's wrong with Muslim countries?

Frank wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 6:45pm:

Why are Muslims migrating to non-Muslim countries in such large numbers?  We don't see non-Muslims migrating to Muslim countries at a similar rate? What's wrong with Muslim countries?

What do you mean by Muslim countries, Frank? Countries with Muslims, or Muslim laws and forms of government?

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 8:13am:

Where have I seen this "hive mind and all conspiring together" thing before Gandalf? Was it less offensive when you said it?

Ah that would be the time I specifically wasn't talking about any religious/ethnic group, and instead made a point about *ALL* tribes during that time and place - jewish, muslim and pagan. You then projected on to me offensive racial slurs like "scheming jews" to really take the moral high ground. A bit like how I made a point about the tendency of all religions to become "business like" when they become big national and trans-national organisations - and you somehow interpreted that as a point about the specific characteristics about muslims.

Seems to be a bit of a disturbing tendency of yours FD - to reflexively jump to offensive racial caricatures either to expose your own racism or as cheap strawman attacks against others.

Would you agree that the phrase "grinning muslims" is highly offensive and, dare I say it, "racist"- like you clearly think "scheming jews" is?

So tell us about these Muslim tribes Gandalf.


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No doubt you will retort by saying it was me who came up with the idea that this behaviour is normal and inevitable.

Is that incorrect?

This is FD at his finest - asking me a question that was answered in the very same passage that he quotes.

This usually means FD has completely given up on attempting to make a coherent argument.

Can you tell us about these Muslim tribes with hive minds Gandalf?

Why did it not occur to you to make the distinction between big and small Islamic organisations when I previously used examples of small organisations to counter your 'inevitable corruption' narrative? Did you only just come up with it?

freediver wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2016 at 8:51am:

Can you tell us about these Muslim tribes with hive minds Gandalf? Why did it not occur to you to make the distinction between big and small Islamic organisations when I previously used examples of small organisations to counter your 'inevitable corruption' narrative? Did you only just come up with it?

How many questions will you ask to cover up your porkies? Do you think this makes you look more credible?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

freediver wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2016 at 8:51am:

Why did it not occur to you to make the distinction between big and small Islamic organisations when I previously used examples of small organisations to counter your 'inevitable corruption' narrative?

Remind me again, what examples of small organisations did you use?

Also I never had a "inevitable corruption narrative" - thats your invention. The only thing I said was "inevitable" was for big, organised religion to run their institutions in a business like manner - where invariably profits are prioritised over the welfare of their flock. We saw it with how the catholic church ran a protection racket for pedophiles and threatened victims with legal action if they pursued compensation, and we are seeing it with how AFIC runs their schools.

This is what many Muslims think- there is no sin in ripping off the kaffir.

I put forward a sporting club that I am a member of.

Karnal wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 7:20pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 6:45pm: Why are Muslims migrating to non-Muslim countries in such large numbers?  We don't see non-Muslims migrating to Muslim countries at a similar rate? What's wrong with Muslim countries? What do you mean by Muslim countries, Frank? Countries with Muslims, or Muslim laws and forms of government?

I mean countries that are characterised by having lots of Muslims and very often only Muslims and so the laws and customs are based on Muslim and Islamic laws and customs and history and all the rest of what gives a country its demographic characteristics.
Or perhaps I could have said that countries that identify themselves as Muslim by being members of some international Muslim organisation like the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation.

Is there some other way to identify Muslim countries? How do you identify a country whether it's Muslim or secular or Christian or Jewish or Buddhist or Taoist or something else?

freediver wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2016 at 3:12pm:

I put forward a sporting club that I am a member of.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Please provide a link to the quote.

Frank wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2016 at 4:58pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 7:20pm: Frank wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 6:45pm: Why are Muslims migrating to non-Muslim countries in such large numbers?  We don't see non-Muslims migrating to Muslim countries at a similar rate? What's wrong with Muslim countries? What do you mean by Muslim countries, Frank? Countries with Muslims, or Muslim laws and forms of government? I mean countries that are characterised by having lots of Muslims and very often only Muslims and so the laws and customs are based on Muslim and Islamic laws and customs and history and all the rest of what gives a country its demographic characteristics. Or perhaps I could have said that countries that identify themselves as Muslim by being members of some international Muslim organisation like the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation. Is there some other way to identify Muslim countries? How do you identify a country whether it's Muslim or secular or Christian or Jewish or Buddhist or Taoist or something else?

I’d say the same as you, Frank - countries with a majority of Muslims. And do you know? I’ve never heard an Indian or Philippino guest worker complain about the Muslim aspect of Dubai or Qatar or other majority Muslim countries when I’ve asked about this. Some I’ve met have lived in these countries for years.- one Indian farm worker for 20 years. I met an Indian electrician last week who was heading off to Iraq for a 3 year contract. He was daunted, but not by the religion.

People go where the work is, and that’s the way it’s been throughout most of history. If the money was good enough, I’d consider living in Saudi Arabia myself.

It would have to be pretty good though.

Karnal wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2016 at 6:45pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 4:58pm: Karnal wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 7:20pm: Frank wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 6:45pm: Why are Muslims migrating to non-Muslim countries in such large numbers?  We don't see non-Muslims migrating to Muslim countries at a similar rate? What's wrong with Muslim countries? What do you mean by Muslim countries, Frank? Countries with Muslims, or Muslim laws and forms of government? I mean countries that are characterised by having lots of Muslims and very often only Muslims and so the laws and customs are based on Muslim and Islamic laws and customs and history and all the rest of what gives a country its demographic characteristics. Or perhaps I could have said that countries that identify themselves as Muslim by being members of some international Muslim organisation like the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation. Is there some other way to identify Muslim countries? How do you identify a country whether it's Muslim or secular or Christian or Jewish or Buddhist or Taoist or something else? I’d say the same as you, Frank - countries with a majority of Muslims. And do you know? I’ve never heard an Indian or Philippino guest worker complain about the Muslim aspect of Dubai or Qatar or other majority Muslim countries when I’ve asked about this. Some I’ve met have lived in these countries for years.- one Indian farm worker for 20 years. I met an Indian electrician last week who was heading off to Iraq for a 3 year contract. He was daunted, but not by the religion. People go where the work is, and that’s the way it’s been throughout most of history. If the money was good enough, I’d consider living in Saudi Arabia myself. It would have to be pretty good though.

How does that explain in any way why Muslims should come to the West?  It just reinforces my point - why don't Muslims go to other Muslim countries? Why come to the West and then blow up Brussels airport?


What's the point to come to the West to be disaffected and hostile? Come to the West if you want to live like a Westerner but go to a Muslim country if you want to live like a Muslim.

Are you telling me that these Muslims sell out their Islamic culture for financial advantage and once they have the money they sell out the Western countries that took them in and blow up their airports and trains as a thank you for taking us in??

Why attack the countries that took them in? I don't get that. Why would a Muslim carry out a terrorist attack in a European country that has given him peace, money and an opportunity to make something of his life? Why would they grope and rape the women? What do they think they are entitled to?i

Frank, the countries with the most refugees are Muslim.countries - Pakistan (nominal) and Turkey and Lebanon (per capita). The countries with the highest percentage of immigrant labour are Muslim countries. Some Muslim.countries even outsource their courts, public sectors or business to non-Muslim ethnic groups like Gujurati Indians or Sri Lankans.

I’m not really sure what you’re talking about or why you’ve inserted it in a thread on Muslim schools in Australia.

Here you go Gandalf:


freediver wrote on Mar 12^th, 2016 at 1:13pm:

Quote: What an absurd thing to say - that parents and friends of students are not interested in whether or not they get screwed over again and threatened with school shutdown. School shutdown - bad Muslim institutions acting as businesses - oh that's normal. Catholic Church. Pedophiles. Alien abductions. [quote]Do you think we enjoy not knowing whether our kids will have a school in two weeks, and madly trying to run around looking for another school they can go to?

I think the fact it was allowed to get so bad reflects a more fundamental problem, but the response amounts to little more than complaining about getting caught.


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And you you seriously think we are not pissed off with the people who are responsible - just because we acknowledge the bleeding obvious - that organised religions invariably act like businesses.

Muslim ones certainly do, but I consider this far from inevitable for normal religious institutions.


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You can say they shouldn't be for profit, but the reality is its impractical not to

Running on a not-for-profit basis is considered by most people as a fundamental pre-requisite for any charity, social or religious institution. Even sporting clubs are expected to do this. I am a member of one with significant spare funds that survive through disagreement and change of executive without anyone raiding the kitty or deciding the funds should go to anything other than the sport they represent. Having such institutions is an important part of civilised society.


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and they need a business mindset to survive

Crap. You don't have to be a good businessman to not raid the kitty. You just have to be honest (I know, you cannot possibly expect this from Muslim leaders, and scratch your head that others would be so naive....). It was the "business mindset" that is now destroying the AFIC (I hope), and up to 6 schools.


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I don't see how this is any worse that what AFIC is doing

I did not claim it is, but a profit seeking mindset is not the fundamental cause of the pedophilia problems facing the church, or even the church's handing of the matter, and you have demonstrated some interesting mental gymnastics to make the link.[/quote]

riiight... so if I remember correctly your argument is that I neglected to respond to this little anecdote of yours?

...And that proves that big religious organisations aren't business like?

I am still trying to get my head around this distinction you are trying to make. Why is it inevitable for this sort of thing to happen when it is a large Islamic organisation running the show, but not when it is a small one? If anything, I would expect large organisations to be easier to hold to account. They certainly have a lot more to lose. If you ignore the fact they are Muslims, AFIC is the exception, not the norm.

Sorry FD, are you saying small, community organisations are more likely to be business-like than large national and trans-national ones?

Do you think that your beloved little tennis club is more business-oriented than Tennis Australia?

I have no idea if tennis Australia is a business or charity Gandalf. But assuming it is a charity, both have to survive in the financial sense, but that does not make AFIC-style behaviour inevitable in either. Throwing the money away will destroy the organisation just as quickly as stealing it.

To be honest I think tennis is a bad example. I expect tennis clubs to be businesses. Tennis courts are expensive and the game is not cheap to play. The social tennis club I have been going to actually is a business, run for profit. Though I would expect it to be a bit different in small towns. I would not bother going to a meeting of a tennis club or getting involved in how it is run, unless I was paid, any more than I would donate my time to the local pub.

Karnal wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2016 at 7:24pm:

Frank, the countries with the most refugees are Muslim.countries - Pakistan (nominal) and Turkey and Lebanon (per capita). The countries with the highest percentage of immigrant labour are Muslim countries. Some Muslim.countries even outsource their courts, public sectors or business to non-Muslim ethnic groups like Gujurati Indians or Sri Lankans. I’m not really sure what you’re talking about or why you’ve inserted it in a thread on Muslim schools in Australia.

I meant permanent settlement of refugees, not just housing them in camps until a Western country takes them in permanently.

Frank wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2016 at 7:59pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 7:24pm: Frank, the countries with the most refugees are Muslim.countries - Pakistan (nominal) and Turkey and Lebanon (per capita). The countries with the highest percentage of immigrant labour are Muslim countries. Some Muslim.countries even outsource their courts, public sectors or business to non-Muslim ethnic groups like Gujurati Indians or Sri Lankans. I’m not really sure what you’re talking about or why you’ve inserted it in a thread on Muslim schools in Australia. I meant permanent settlement of refugees, not just housing them in camps until a Western country takes them in permanently.

The populations of Pakistan and Bangladesh comprise of nearly 50% of permanently settled refugees. Go to Jordan, Lebanon and even Syria, and you’ll find a significant number of permanently settled refugees too.

We’ve discussed this issue.beefore, Frank. I don’t know why you’re raising it here.

I wonder - are you just positing random complaints about Muslims?

Not sure where you get your information from but the UNHCR Global Resettlement Statistical Report 2014 doesn't back up your claims. I can't post the link but Google should readily find it. It's on the What we do - Durable solutions - Resettlement page.

Maybe this is not the best place for this discussion. I just came across this thread and it seemed an appropriate thing to raise. Happy to leave it at this here.

Frank wrote on Mar 24^th, 2016 at 5:20pm:

Not sure where you get your information from but the UNHCR Global Resettlement Statistical Report 2014 doesn't back up your claims. I can't post the link but Google should readily find it.

No worries, Frank. Feel free to quote it.