Quote:

On July 23, Waleed Aly will be presented with the Voltaire Award for free speech from Liberty Victoria. It would be rather charming were he to give a speech on that occasion reflecting on Voltaire’s play Mahomet, which depicted Islam as based on false miracles, personal ambition and ruthless fanaticism. For some time Aly has been the go-to person for commentary on Islam and avoiding what is widely dubbed “Islamophobia”. It is safe to say he does not share Voltaire’s assessment of Islam. Yet Voltaire remains a figure for our time, and free speech on the subject of Islam has become extraordinarily problematic. Imagine Mahomet being produced in Paris today! The truth is, if we truly want to buttress a tolerant, multicultural society, we have to confront more honestly the underlying realities that generate “Islamophobia”, however awkward this may be, especially for those such as Aly who are stranded between Islamic culture and secular society. The occasion of the Voltaire Award for free speech is an opportunity for Aly to make this clear. In April, Aly was interviewed at length by Robert Manne under the rubric “Islam: What are We Afraid of? Waleed Aly and Robert Manne in conversation.” Their conversation was lucid, temperate and fascinating. In some ways, it was a model of intellectual discourse in civil society. The problem is, they did not answer their own question, to say nothing of answering it as Voltaire would have done. Aly observed correctly that Islamist terrorism had got only worse since the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001 and especially since the invasion of Iraq in 2003. He distinguished thoughtfully between European, American and Australian reactions to Muslim immigration and made intelligent points about Islamic State, Iraq, Syria and the debacle of the briefly promising Arab Spring. He described the short rule in Egypt by the Muslim Brotherhood as “a disaster”. However, neither he nor Manne raised serious questions about Islam itself; simply gliding over it as “one of the world’s great religions”; the fear of which is, implicitly, irrational, phobic, ignorant and, in Aly’s words, hardly worth engaging with. They described Islamic State as a rogue operation whose atrocities had nothing to do with Islam but were aberrant even by the standards of al-Qa’ida. Aly compared beheadings by Islamic State to the Jacobin Terror in 1793 France but didn’t mention beheadings in the history of Islam. Neither mentioned movements towards Islamisation — from North Africa via Turkey to Indonesia — or the disturbing phenomenon of Muslim “militants” murdering journalists and others for mocking Islam. Consequently, they failed to explain why there would be any reason to feel uneasy about or even hostile to the growing presence of Islam in the West. One might have expected at least passing reference to the many centuries of confrontation between Europe and an expansionist Islam up to the late 17th century. But the only confrontation discussed was the Western invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq after 9/11. Clearly, this is an immensely sensitive subject and it is easy to lapse into polemic about it, inflaming rather than tempering debate. If, however, we are to answer the question “Islam: What are we afraid of?” we cannot avoid raising certain characteristics of Islam that do in fact give cause for concern to many people in the West, and many of those trapped in Muslim-dominated states. We know far more than Voltaire did, and what we know is not reassuring. Karen Armstrong has portrayed Mohammed as “a prophet for our time”. But the classic Muslim sources (Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Kathir, Waqidi, al-Tabari, going back to the 8th and 9th centuries) make clear that he was a very dubious figure even in his own time. He founded a religion at the point of a sword, plundered infidels, arranged for the murder of his critics (even poets), massacred or expelled communities of Jews in Arabia, condemned apostates to death, was an unscrupulous poly­gamist and taught that women were inferior to men. The Muslim sources themselves are completely explicit on all these points. It is simply dishonest to pretend that none of this is true or to pass it off on the basis that Christianity and even Judaism also have their dark or dubious characteristics. The modern world (Voltaire being a leader) fought its way free of Judeo-Christian dogmatism and error through trenchant criticism of religious claims and practices. There are no good grounds for sparing Islam similar critical treatment; all the more so because we are seeking to integrate into Western societies millions of human beings who happen to be Muslims. Outside the West, the problem is much worse. In wide swathes of the Muslim world, other religions are persecuted and apostates are hunted to death with judicial sanction. Blasphemy is violently attacked and Muslim “heretics” hounded. Homosexuals are condemned to death. Women and girls are denied freedom and education. The Jews are viciously denounced on racist and religious grounds, quite apart from the political issue of Zionism.

Quote:

What are we afraid of, then? A world in which, from Bangladesh to West Africa, a savage version of Islam is being championed by armed groups; in which the Indonesian Ulama Council has issued fatwas denouncing secularism, pluralism and liberalism as “sipilis” (syphilis); in which Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan last year publicly lionised historic Muslim conquests and called for the reconquest of Europe by Muslim immigration. All these things cause unease and fear. Should they not? We need to address them honestly and intelligently, not dismiss fear of Islam as phobic or bigoted. It would have been good had Manne asked Aly questions about these difficult matters and had Aly addressed them. In accepting his Voltaire Award, Aly needs to step up and champion freedom of speech in the Muslim world and freedom to criticise Islam itself, including the Prophet — as Voltaire himself did.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/waleed-aly-must-step-up-on-muslim-free-speech-at-voltaire-award/news-story/27854b9815ca6c7f31b818a2b77b79d4

As well written as the article is; it's  nothing that, Yadda, for example, hasn't  written dozens of times. The proplem of the Islamification of the west still only calls for two responses ; talking about a solution or laughing the concerns off as hysterical hate speech. Unfortunately, even on OP, it's  the latter.

Mr Aly is not a muslim. If he were he would be fighting with ISIL. There is no verse in the koran that allows muslims to relax their harsh views. There is no mention in the koran of moderate muslims or radical muslims. There is no manichean type escape clause in the koran. If you cleave to the alleged religion of islam you are a muslim without any shades of grey, light grey, dark grey etc.

salad in wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 8:46am:

Mr Aly is not a muslim. If he were he would be fighting with ISIL. There is no verse in the koran that allows muslims to relax their harsh views. There is no mention in the koran of moderate muslims or radical muslims. There is no manichean type escape clause in the koran. If you cleave to the alleged religion of islam you are a muslim without any shades of grey, light grey, dark grey etc.

Well not entirely true.  There are reformist Muslims who actually wish for their religion to undergo enlightenment as what happened with Catholicism.  And there are of course radicals/extremists, orthodox, and the moderates. 

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 9:37am:

salad in wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 8:46am: Mr Aly is not a muslim. If he were he would be fighting with ISIL. There is no verse in the koran that allows muslims to relax their harsh views. There is no mention in the koran of moderate muslims or radical muslims. There is no manichean type escape clause in the koran. If you cleave to the alleged religion of islam you are a muslim without any shades of grey, light grey, dark grey etc. Well not entirely true.  There are reformist Muslims who actually wish for their religion to undergo enlightenment as what happened with Catholicism.  And there are of course radicals/extremists, orthodox, and the moderates.

The regressive left are in fact supporting the conservative Muslims over the reformists.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 9:37am:

salad in wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 8:46am: Mr Aly is not a muslim. If he were he would be fighting with ISIL. There is no verse in the koran that allows muslims to relax their harsh views. There is no mention in the koran of moderate muslims or radical muslims. There is no manichean type escape clause in the koran. If you cleave to the alleged religion of islam you are a muslim without any shades of grey, light grey, dark grey etc. Well not entirely true.  There are reformist Muslims who actually wish for their religion to undergo enlightenment as what happened with Catholicism.  And there are of course radicals/extremists, orthodox, and the moderates.

SPDA, know your koran.

2:2 This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -

The koran is the immutable word of mo. It - the koran - is free of errors and is not subject to emendation. The alleged moderates you talk of have no authority to fiddle with the koran.

There are no shades of muslims; only muslims.

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 4:44am:

As well written as the article is; it's  nothing that, Yadda, for example, hasn't  written dozens of times. The proplem of the Islamification of the west still only calls for two responses ; talking about a solution or laughing the concerns off as hysterical hate speech. Unfortunately, even on OP, it's  the latter.

Is it, his writing is so poorly formatted its hard to work out what he 's saying

salad in wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 8:46am:

Mr Aly is not a muslim. If he were he would be fighting with ISIL. There is no verse in the koran that allows muslims to relax their harsh views.

Not strictly true.


----------- >

Yadda said.....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1467888920/23#23

Quote:

THE TRUTH; Moslems only promote tolerance of minorities, in places where moslems are a minority.  !!!! And, the moslem living here, in Australia, full-well knows, but hides and denies, the fact,    ....i.e. the truth, that the moslem is not permitted by his religion, to be tolerant of people who are not moslems. And that fact, is an article of faith, for every moslem. . [quote]July 28, 2006 Islamic Dictionary for Infidels ...Robert Spencer, ..."Religious deception of unbelievers is indeed taught by the Qur'an itself: "Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them" (Qur'an 3:28). In other words, don't make friends with unbelievers except to "guard yourselves from them": pretend to be their friends so that you can strengthen yourself against them. The distinguished Qur'anic commentator Ibn Kathir explains that this verse teaches that if "believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers," they may "show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly."

Google




.





Quote:

A Study in Muslim Doctrine "...while sincere friendship with non-Muslims is forbidden, insincere friendship - whenever beneficial to Muslims - is not."

http://www.meforum.org/2512/nidal-hasan-fort-hood-muslim-doctrine

[/quote]



.




salad in wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 8:46am:

There is no mention in the koran of moderate muslims or radical muslims. There is no manichean type escape clause in the koran. If you cleave to the alleged religion of islam you are a muslim without any shades of grey, light grey, dark grey etc.

Absolutely true, imo.


e.g.

"Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-"
Koran 4.88, 89

< -------------

The 'Hypocrites' in this example, are moslem backsliders, who are slack about their religion.

e.g.
The devout moslem would say that a person like Waleed Aly would qualify as a moslem 'Hypocrite' !!




"Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred...."
Koran 58.22


"O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers."
Koran 9.23

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:20am:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 4:44am: As well written as the article is; it's  nothing that, Yadda, for example, hasn't  written dozens of times. The proplem of the Islamification of the west still only calls for two responses ; talking about a solution or laughing the concerns off as hysterical hate speech. Unfortunately, even on OP, it's  the latter. Is it, his writing is so poorly formatted its hard to work out what he 's saying

My apologies to you.             :)

Mr Aly is a muslim apologist, he has a chip on his shoulder as big as his head.  He is of the progressive Left and has a media platform to espouse his views that is far beyond their worth.

Don't start me on Manne....  both useless individuals.
No wonder it went nowhere.

Makes me want to see Mahomet now... if I could be assured terrorists would stay away.

Quote:

Aly’s childhood was very Australian. Educated at Wesley College, an elite private school in ­Melbourne, he played cricket and Australian rules football and even filled in for a friend as the tiger mascot of the Richmond Football Club (one time, in front of 40,000 people, he wrestled the Bulldogs mascot, pulling off his head to the delight of the Richmond fans.) At the age of about 20 he took a trip to Egypt, years later telling Andrew Denton on his ­program Enough Rope that he arrived at a new level of ­“religious consciousness” after that trip and had something of a flirtation with Islamic fundamentalism. “I came back to Australia looking for ­religious things and when I looked around all I saw… was a brand of Islam that I think really did inculcate a kind of fundamentalist outlook, a kind of thing that was about purity to the ­exclusion of everyone else who is by definition then impure. And it’s at that phase that I sort of started doing all the things that people who ­follow a similar kind of path do and it’s actually kind of a form of youth rebellion in a lot of cases.” Stressing that he was never involved in ­anything remotely violent, Aly told Denton that his activities included preaching, yelling at ­people and constructing “a kind of globalised identity” through a heightened political ­consciousness of the plight of Muslims overseas. “We just kind of figured that we could go out there and yell at people and then they’d suddenly see the light and think, ‘Wow, you guys are great’,’’ he said, before adding that this phase wore off. Today Aly is a practising Sunni Muslim who reads and writes Arabic to a certain level.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/life/weekend-australian-magazine/waleed-aly-why-all-the-haters/news-story/231adcd9faf13e305af52c03a5d5e0d5

Maybe his "flirtation with fundamentalism" never really wore off.

To me he looks like a very angry man like there is something uncertain brewing just under the surface.

Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" &
Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ibKWVTFSak

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 12:16pm:

Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" & Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat.[/url]

We know Muslim countries have problems...  the video just points out that different Muslim countries have different problems. We know that...  what do they have in common?
THEY ARE MUSLIM COUNTRIES...

Grendel wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 12:28pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:16pm: Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" & Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat.[/url] We know Muslim countries have problems...  the video just points out that different Muslim countries have different problems. We know that...  what do they have in common? THEY ARE MUSLIM COUNTRIES...

So why don't we refer to them as countries rather than religion.

FGM as referred to in the video, is a christian country problem(or more to the point an African problem) yet in reporting we here it's Muslim countries, not only is this factually incorrect but even if they did report it correctly you can bet it would be described as an Eritrean or African problem NOT a CHRISTIAN Country problem.


Stop bashing a religion & sheet home the blame to those that deserve it.

Or better yet BAN ALL RELIGIONS, then no one would have an excuse.

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 12:39pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:28pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:16pm: Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" & Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat.[/url] We know Muslim countries have problems...  the video just points out that different Muslim countries have different problems. We know that...  what do they have in common? THEY ARE MUSLIM COUNTRIES... So why don't we refer to them as countries rather than religion. We do...  but you forget they are not secular states...  most Christian countries are... Islam is not just a Religion...  you forget that too. FGM as referred to in the video, is a christian country problem(or more to the point an African problem) yet in reporting we here it's Muslim countries, well lets see then eh, not just accept blindly what Aslan says...  most of us know its cultural and ethnic in fact but then culture is also Islam...  not only is this factually incorrect but even if they did report it correctly you can bet it would be described as an Eritrean or African problem NOT a CHRISTIAN Country problem. Stop bashing a religion & sheet home the blame to those that deserve it. Mostly it is...  are you saying Islamic State is not Islamic? Or better yet BAN ALL RELIGIONS, then no one would have an excuse.  That is truly a rubbish statement.

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 12:39pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:28pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:16pm: Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" & Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat.[/url] We know Muslim countries have problems...  the video just points out that different Muslim countries have different problems. We know that...  what do they have in common? THEY ARE MUSLIM COUNTRIES... So why don't we refer to them as countries rather than religion. FGM as referred to in the video, is a christian country problem(or more to the point an African problem) yet in reporting we here it's Muslim countries, not only is this factually incorrect but even if they did report it correctly you can bet it would be described as an Eritrean or African problem.

Another dopey dickhead leftist Islamic apologist sticking up for Islam.


Quote:

Circumcision is not an inherited custom as some people claim, rather it is prescribed in islam and the scholars are unanimously agreed that it is prescribed. Not a single muslim scholar- as far as we know- has said circumcision is not prescribed. islamqa.info/en/60314

Why do dickhead leftists stick up for this belief, muslims are allowed to lie and these dopey dim witted leftists make great useful idiots.
Sunnah.com/bukhari/53/3

"Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion.

matty wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 1:18pm:

"Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion.

That's what all the Islamophobes say.

(all terms are "made up", by the way)

matty wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 1:18pm:

"Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion.

Kishori Saran Lal was the first to do statistics on the Islamic texts, he put it at 63% political ideology with 37% for religion.

It is considered blasphemy to separate the political aspects from the religion, they chop your head off for that.

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 1:23pm:

matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:18pm: "Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion. That's what all the Islamophobes say. (all terms are "made up", by the way)

Unlike the left who just want to brush it off and pretend there is no issue. Despite the fact that not one of you can name any recent mass killings by any Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or any other r idiots group.

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 1:24pm:

matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:18pm: "Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion. Kishori Saran Lal was the first to do statistics on the Islamic texts, he put it at 63% political ideology with 37% for religion. It is considered blasphemy to separate the political aspects from the religion, they chop your head off for that.

That's exactly right. One needs only to look at the difference between Jesus and Muhammed. I eill give two specific examples. Jesus said that only he without sin should cast the first stone to a woman who committed adultery, Muhammed said to stone all women who committed adultery; Jesus killed nobody, Muhammed killed 800 Jewish men and boys.

matty wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 1:53pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:23pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:18pm: "Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion. That's what all the Islamophobes say. (all terms are "made up", by the way) Unlike the left who just want to brush it off and pretend there is no issue. Despite the fact that not one of you can name any recent mass killings by any Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or any other r idiots group.

Apologist.

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:00pm:

matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:53pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:23pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:18pm: "Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion. That's what all the Islamophobes say. (all terms are "made up", by the way) Unlike the left who just want to brush it off and pretend there is no issue. Despite the fact that not one of you can name any recent mass killings by any Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or any other r idiots group. Apologist.

Exactly, that's what you all are. Good to see you finally admit it.

matty wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:01pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:00pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:53pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:23pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:18pm: "Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion. That's what all the Islamophobes say. (all terms are "made up", by the way) Unlike the left who just want to brush it off and pretend there is no issue. Despite the fact that not one of you can name any recent mass killings by any Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or any other r idiots group. Apologist. Exactly, that's what you all are. Good to see you finally admit it.

I make no apologies for killers.

You, on the other hand, are always wanting to shift the blame.

Apologist.

Gordon wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 9:41am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 9:37am: salad in wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 8:46am: Mr Aly is not a muslim. If he were he would be fighting with ISIL. There is no verse in the koran that allows muslims to relax their harsh views. There is no mention in the koran of moderate muslims or radical muslims. There is no manichean type escape clause in the koran. If you cleave to the alleged religion of islam you are a muslim without any shades of grey, light grey, dark grey etc. Well not entirely true.  There are reformist Muslims who actually wish for their religion to undergo enlightenment as what happened with Catholicism.  And there are of course radicals/extremists, orthodox, and the moderates.  The regressive left are in fact supporting the conservative Muslims over the reformists.

Really?  And on what basis do you come to the conclusion, Gordy?  Where have you read any "Left" writings?    ::)

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:02pm:

matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:01pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:00pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:53pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:23pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:18pm: "Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion. That's what all the Islamophobes say. (all terms are "made up", by the way) Unlike the left who just want to brush it off and pretend there is no issue. Despite the fact that not one of you can name any recent mass killings by any Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or any other r idiots group. Apologist. Exactly, that's what you all are. Good to see you finally admit it. I make no apologies for killers. You, on the other hand, are always wanting to shift the blame. Apologist.

Where have I shifted the blame? Give me one example.

matty wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:05pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:02pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:01pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:00pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:53pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:23pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:18pm: "Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion. That's what all the Islamophobes say. (all terms are "made up", by the way) Unlike the left who just want to brush it off and pretend there is no issue. Despite the fact that not one of you can name any recent mass killings by any Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or any other r idiots group. Apologist. Exactly, that's what you all are. Good to see you finally admit it. I make no apologies for killers. You, on the other hand, are always wanting to shift the blame. Apologist. Where have I shifted the blame? Give me one example.

You shift the blame to Islam, like all the other apologists.

Apologist.

Grendel wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 12:28pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:16pm: Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" & Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat.[/url] We know Muslim countries have problems...  the video just points out that different Muslim countries have different problems. We know that...  what do they have in common? THEY ARE MUSLIM COUNTRIES...

Yet their Islam differs markedly, between each country.  That is something the Fundamentalist Islamists want to see ended.   It is something we should be promoting.   Anything that divides Muslims and allows individuality to be seen and accepted, is a good thing IMO.    ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:03pm:

Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 9:41am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 9:37am: salad in wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 8:46am: Mr Aly is not a muslim. If he were he would be fighting with ISIL. There is no verse in the koran that allows muslims to relax their harsh views. There is no mention in the koran of moderate muslims or radical muslims. There is no manichean type escape clause in the koran. If you cleave to the alleged religion of islam you are a muslim without any shades of grey, light grey, dark grey etc. Well not entirely true.  There are reformist Muslims who actually wish for their religion to undergo enlightenment as what happened with Catholicism.  And there are of course radicals/extremists, orthodox, and the moderates.  The regressive left are in fact supporting the conservative Muslims over the reformists. Really?  And on what basis do you come to the conclusion, Gordy?  Where have you read any "Left" writings?    ::)

Why don't you see left wing politicians and activists out there criticising such attacks? Why didn't the homosexual lobby groups release a single statement about the Orlando massacre? Why do we constantly hear the left saying that there is good and bad in all religions, when clearly there is more bad in Islam than there is any other religion? Why do we the left pass the blame to the West for Islamic attacks?

matty wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 1:53pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:23pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:18pm: "Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion. That's what all the Islamophobes say. (all terms are "made up", by the way) Unlike the left who just want to brush it off and pretend there is no issue. Despite the fact that not one of you can name any recent mass killings by any Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or any other r idiots group.

How recent is recent Matty?

2 weeks because it fits your narrative?

http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-shooting-rampages/

Go through it, I think out of 47 mentioned we have 3 to 4 carried out by people of Islamic faith.

Are Christians more inclined to mass murder then?

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:07pm:

matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:05pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:02pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:01pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:00pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:53pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:23pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:18pm: "Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion. That's what all the Islamophobes say. (all terms are "made up", by the way) Unlike the left who just want to brush it off and pretend there is no issue. Despite the fact that not one of you can name any recent mass killings by any Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or any other r idiots group. Apologist. Exactly, that's what you all are. Good to see you finally admit it. I make no apologies for killers. You, on the other hand, are always wanting to shift the blame. Apologist. Where have I shifted the blame? Give me one example. You shift the blame to Islam, like all the other apologists. Apologist.

Shift the blame to Islam? They're doing it because of Islam! They commit these atrocities in the name of Islam.

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:08pm:

matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:53pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:23pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:18pm: "Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion. That's what all the Islamophobes say. (all terms are "made up", by the way) Unlike the left who just want to brush it off and pretend there is no issue. Despite the fact that not one of you can name any recent mass killings by any Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or any other r idiots group. How recent is recent Matty? 2 weeks because it fits your narrative? http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-shooting-rampages/ Go through it, I think out of 47 mentioned we have 3 to 4 carried out by people of Islamic faith. Are Christians more inclined to mass murder then?

Have any of the non-Muslims who have killed done so in the name of their religion? Have they said that Christ or God has called them to kill? Or do they happen to be people of other religions who kill?

matty wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 1:18pm:

"Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion.

Really?

Everything you attack Islam for, is present in Christianity and it's belief system, Matty.   ::)

matty wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:10pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:08pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:53pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:23pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:18pm: "Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion. That's what all the Islamophobes say. (all terms are "made up", by the way) Unlike the left who just want to brush it off and pretend there is no issue. Despite the fact that not one of you can name any recent mass killings by any Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or any other r idiots group. How recent is recent Matty? 2 weeks because it fits your narrative? http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-shooting-rampages/ Go through it, I think out of 47 mentioned we have 3 to 4 carried out by people of Islamic faith. Are Christians more inclined to mass murder then? Have any of the non-Muslims who have killed done so in the name of their religion? Have they said that Christ or God has called them to kill? Or do they happen to be people of other religions who kill?

What are the abortion clinic killers driven by?

matty wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:10pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:08pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:53pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:23pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:18pm: "Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion. That's what all the Islamophobes say. (all terms are "made up", by the way) Unlike the left who just want to brush it off and pretend there is no issue. Despite the fact that not one of you can name any recent mass killings by any Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or any other r idiots group. How recent is recent Matty? 2 weeks because it fits your narrative? http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-shooting-rampages/ Go through it, I think out of 47 mentioned we have 3 to 4 carried out by people of Islamic faith. Are Christians more inclined to mass murder then? Have any of the non-Muslims who have killed done so in the name of their religion? Have they said that Christ or God has called them to kill? Or do they happen to be people of other religions who kill?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qv_6lKYkXD4/hqdefault.jpg

matty wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:07pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:03pm: Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 9:41am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 9:37am: salad in wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 8:46am: Mr Aly is not a muslim. If he were he would be fighting with ISIL. There is no verse in the koran that allows muslims to relax their harsh views. There is no mention in the koran of moderate muslims or radical muslims. There is no manichean type escape clause in the koran. If you cleave to the alleged religion of islam you are a muslim without any shades of grey, light grey, dark grey etc. Well not entirely true.  There are reformist Muslims who actually wish for their religion to undergo enlightenment as what happened with Catholicism.  And there are of course radicals/extremists, orthodox, and the moderates.  The regressive left are in fact supporting the conservative Muslims over the reformists. Really?  And on what basis do you come to the conclusion, Gordy?  Where have you read any "Left" writings?    ::) Why don't you see left wing politicians and activists out there criticising such attacks?

They have and they do, Matty.  You just don't read/hear them, preferring to drown their protests in a sea of shouts and bigotry.

Muslims criticise the Terrorists and their attacks.  You just don't read/hear them because the MSM doesn't report them.


Quote:

Why didn't the homosexual lobby groups release a single statement about the Orlando massacre?

Really?  I think they are busy grappling with Christian homophobia as well as Muslim homophobia...


Quote:

Why do we constantly hear the left saying that there is good and bad in all religions, when clearly there is more bad in Islam than there is any other religion?

Really?   They used to say that about Catholicism, about Judiasm, about Hinduism, about...

BEFORE people became aware of the good as well as the bad.

Ever hear of Suttee?
Ever hear of Opus Dei?
Ever hear of the anti-Semitic slurs about Passover?

I suspect you'd have been revelling in those when they were prevalent, Matty.   You just love to hate.    ::)


Quote:

Why do we the left pass the blame to the West for Islamic attacks?

The reasons why Terrorism has become dominant from Islamists are party to blame on the West.  If the West had not decided to invade Afghanistan and Iraq, we would not have al Q'aeda nor Daesh as the great dangers they are considered today, Matty.    ::)

matty wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:09pm:

Shift the blame to Islam? They're doing it because of Islam! They commit these atrocities in the name of Islam.

Christian Terrorists commit their atrocities in the name of Christianity, Matty.

All religious inspired Terrorists commit their atrocities in the name of their religion.   Its what they do.   Idiot.    ::)

Personally I have never seen FGM as a strictly Muslim problem and it has always in my mind been a North African cultural thing...
So FGM by country...
Somalia 99% Sunni Muslim <1% Christian.
Yemen  99% Muslim.
Egypt 95% Muslim.
Sudan 70% Sunni Muslim 10% Christian.
Eritrea 50% Sunni Muslim, 30% Orthodox 12% Catholic, 6% other 2% indigenous
Djibouti Muslim 94%, Christian 6%
Ethiopia Orthodox 43.5%, Muslim 33.9%, Protestant 18.6%, traditional 2.6%, Catholic 0.7%, other 0.7%
Kenya Protestant 45%, Roman Catholic 33%, Muslim 10%, indigenous beliefs 10%, other 2%
Tanzania mainland - Christian 30%, Muslim 35%, indigenous beliefs 35%; Zanzibar - more than 99% Muslim
Chad Muslim 53.1%, Catholic 20.1%, Protestant 14.2%, animist 7.3%, other 0.5%, unknown 1.7%, atheist 3.1%
CAR   indigenous beliefs 35%, Protestant 25%, Roman Catholic 25%, Muslim 15%; note: animistic beliefs and practices strongly influence the Christian majority
Nigeria Muslim 50%, Christian 40%, indigenous beliefs 10%
Mali Muslim 90%, Christian 1%, indigenous beliefs 9%
Burkina Faso  Muslim 50%, indigenous beliefs 40%, Christian (mainly Roman Catholic) 10%
Benin Christian 42.8% (Catholic 27.1%, Celestial 5%, Methodist 3.2%, other Protestant 2.2%, other 5.3%), Muslim 24.4%, Vodoun 17.3%, other 15.5%
Cote d'Ivoire Muslim 38.6%, Christian 32.8%, indigenous 11.9%, none 16.7%
Liberia Christian 40%, Muslim 20%, indigenous beliefs 40%
Guinea Muslim 85%, Christian 8%, indigenous beliefs 7%
Sierra Leone Muslim 60%, Christian 10%, indigenous beliefs 30%
Mauritania Muslim 100%
Senegal Muslim 94%, Christian 5% (mostly Roman Catholic), indigenous beliefs 1%
Guinea Bissau Muslim 50%, indigenous beliefs 40%, Christian 10%
Gambia Muslim 90%, Christian 9%, indigenous beliefs
Highlighted show over 80% of females suffer FGM.
make your own mind up.

matty wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:09pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:07pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:05pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:02pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:01pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:00pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:53pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:23pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:18pm: "Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion. That's what all the Islamophobes say. (all terms are "made up", by the way) Unlike the left who just want to brush it off and pretend there is no issue. Despite the fact that not one of you can name any recent mass killings by any Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or any other r idiots group. Apologist. Exactly, that's what you all are. Good to see you finally admit it. I make no apologies for killers. You, on the other hand, are always wanting to shift the blame. Apologist. Where have I shifted the blame? Give me one example. You shift the blame to Islam, like all the other apologists. Apologist. Shift the blame to Islam? They're doing it because of Islam! They commit these atrocities in the name of Islam.

See what I mean? You're an apologist for murderers.

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:15pm:

matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:10pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:08pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:53pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:23pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:18pm: "Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion. That's what all the Islamophobes say. (all terms are "made up", by the way) Unlike the left who just want to brush it off and pretend there is no issue. Despite the fact that not one of you can name any recent mass killings by any Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or any other r idiots group. How recent is recent Matty? 2 weeks because it fits your narrative? http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-shooting-rampages/ Go through it, I think out of 47 mentioned we have 3 to 4 carried out by people of Islamic faith. Are Christians more inclined to mass murder then? Have any of the non-Muslims who have killed done so in the name of their religion? Have they said that Christ or God has called them to kill? Or do they happen to be people of other religions who kill? https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qv_6lKYkXD4/hqdefault.jpg

I listened to a fascinating podcast with an ex Westboro member being interviewed. She said that Westboro members don't hate fags, they're merely quoting exactly what's written in the bible.

They celebrate the death of gays because it's proof that god loves all people, and he hasn't killed living gays and has given them another chance to change.

I saw a Louis Theroux interview recently where he spoke about his time doing a doco with them where he said each and every last Westboro member was the nicest person you could ever meet, and when they were on the protest line and gays would engage them hoping for a verbal, they'd actually almost charm the pants off them and tell them their twisted logic.

Keep in mind the Westboro community numbers about 100.

Gordon wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:26pm:

I listened to a fascinating podcast with an ex Westboro member being interviewed. She said that Westboro members don't hate fags, they're merely quoting exactly what's written in the bible. They celebrate the death of gays because it's proof that god loves all people, and he hasn't killed living gays and has given them another chance to change. I saw a Louis Theroux interview recently where he spoke about his time doing a doco with them where he said each and every last Westboro member was the nicest person you could ever meet, and when they were on the protest line and gays would engage them hoping for a verbal, they'd actually almost charm the pants off them and tell them their twisted logic. Keep in mind the Westboro community numbers about 100.

So, those Christians are fundementalists and extremist in their view of Gays, Gordy?

Amazing and we have so many here telling us that Christians aren't like that at all.   Tsk, tsk.   ::) ::)

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 12:39pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:28pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:16pm: Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" & Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat.[/url] We know Muslim countries have problems...  the video just points out that different Muslim countries have different problems. We know that...  what do they have in common? THEY ARE MUSLIM COUNTRIES... So why don't we refer to them as countries rather than religion. FGM as referred to in the video, is a christian country problem(or more to the point an African problem) yet in reporting we here it's Muslim countries, not only is this factually incorrect but even if they did report it correctly you can bet it would be described as an Eritrean or African problem NOT a CHRISTIAN Country problem. Stop bashing a religion & sheet home the blame to those that deserve it. Or better yet BAN ALL RELIGIONS, then no one would have an excuse.

Eritrea 50% muslim
Djibouti 94% muslim
Would seem to me Aslan is cherry picking and wrong...  many confident people are quite capable of conning others ad just being plain wrong whilst seeming right. :D :D :D

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:07pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:28pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:16pm: Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" & Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat.[/url] We know Muslim countries have problems...  the video just points out that different Muslim countries have different problems. We know that...  what do they have in common? THEY ARE MUSLIM COUNTRIES... Yet their Islam differs markedly, between each country.  That is something the Fundamentalist Islamists want to see ended.   It is something we should be promoting.   Anything that divides Muslims and allows individuality to be seen and accepted, is a good thing IMO.    ::)

So where was I wrong bwian?
Oh right...  I wasn't...
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Won't be long now the bwian yawn will be appearing and yet again he will have conceded victory to me on something. ;D
If you want to agree with me bwian...  best you start off with that's right Grendel...

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:30pm:

Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:26pm: I listened to a fascinating podcast with an ex Westboro member being interviewed. She said that Westboro members don't hate fags, they're merely quoting exactly what's written in the bible. They celebrate the death of gays because it's proof that god loves all people, and he hasn't killed living gays and has given them another chance to change. I saw a Louis Theroux interview recently where he spoke about his time doing a doco with them where he said each and every last Westboro member was the nicest person you could ever meet, and when they were on the protest line and gays would engage them hoping for a verbal, they'd actually almost charm the pants off them and tell them their twisted logic. Keep in mind the Westboro community numbers about 100. So, those Christians are fundementalists and extremist in their view of Gays, Gordy? Amazing and we have so many here telling us that Christians aren't like that at all.   Tsk, tsk.   ::) ::)

As you know, I'm not one of those.
There are extremists in all walks of life.

It's my position that the level of conservatism, fundamentalism, extremism, call it what you will has a much higher set point within Islam. It's also an undeniable fact that Christian countries are better insulated from religion due to secularism and separation of church and state.

Brian, if we get an influx of Christian fundamentalists from USA or elsewhere and it becomes off limits to publicly critique them due to racism, I'll fill the boards with post.

Mkay?

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:08pm:

matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:53pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:23pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:18pm: "Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion. That's what all the Islamophobes say. (all terms are "made up", by the way) Unlike the left who just want to brush it off and pretend there is no issue. Despite the fact that not one of you can name any recent mass killings by any Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or any other r idiots group. How recent is recent Matty? 2 weeks because it fits your narrative? http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-shooting-rampages/ Go through it, I think out of 47 mentioned we have 3 to 4 carried out by people of Islamic faith. Are Christians more inclined to mass murder then?

I'm sorry how many do ISIS kill each week, how many were blown to bits in IRAQ the other day?
Boy, matty is soooo right when it comes to you apologists. ::)

Grendel wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:36pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:07pm: Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:28pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:16pm: Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" & Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat.[/url] We know Muslim countries have problems...  the video just points out that different Muslim countries have different problems. We know that...  what do they have in common? THEY ARE MUSLIM COUNTRIES... Yet their Islam differs markedly, between each country.  That is something the Fundamentalist Islamists want to see ended.   It is something we should be promoting.   Anything that divides Muslims and allows individuality to be seen and accepted, is a good thing IMO.    ::) So where was I wrong bwian? Oh right...  I wasn't... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Won't be long now the bwian yawn will be appearing and yet again he will have conceded victory to me. ;D

Grendel, the only place you're wrong is describing Islam as a unified, monolithic religion.

It's like suggesting that Christianity is a unified, monolithic religion.    ::) ::)

I made the point that we should be identifying and fostering the differences, not smoothing them over and doing what the Islamists want - treat all Muslims the same.    We should punish those that break the law and help those that foster the law.   

Westboro Baptist Church members 40
puhlease...  representative of Christianity :D :D :D

Gordon wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:39pm:

As you know, I'm not one of those. There are extremists in all walks of life. It's my position that the level of conservatism, fundamentalism, extremism, call it what you will has a much higher set point within Islam. It's also an undeniable fact that Christian countries are better insulated from religion due to secularism and separation of church and state. Brian, if we get an influx of Christian fundamentalists from USA or elsewhere and it becomes off limits to publicly critique them due to racism, I'll fill the boards with post. Mkay?

Fine.  However, we have not had an "influx" of Muslims - they still only make up about 3% of our population.  The overwhelming majority of immigrants still come from Christian or secular societies.   So, why is everybody running 'round like chooks with their heads cut off?  Oh, thats right we have 3% of our population who are Muslim...   ::)

So, I take it you don't believe we should accept any immigrants from any theocratic state?  Even if they are attempting to escape the theocracy that rules their old country and have indicated a desire to live in our (nominally) Christian/Secular state?    ::)

Why is then possible for you to accept Catholics who owe their religious allegiance to the Vatican, one of the few theocratic states in the world?  Or British people?  Afterall, their Queen is also the head of their national church...    ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:41pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:36pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:07pm: Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:28pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:16pm: Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" & Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat.[/url] We know Muslim countries have problems...  the video just points out that different Muslim countries have different problems. We know that...  what do they have in common? THEY ARE MUSLIM COUNTRIES... Yet their Islam differs markedly, between each country.  That is something the Fundamentalist Islamists want to see ended.   It is something we should be promoting.   Anything that divides Muslims and allows individuality to be seen and accepted, is a good thing IMO.    ::) So where was I wrong bwian? Oh right...  I wasn't... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Won't be long now the bwian yawn will be appearing and yet again he will have conceded victory to me. ;D Grendel, the only place you're wrong is describing Islam as a unified, monolithic religion. It's like suggesting that Christianity is a unified, monolithic religion.    ::) ::) yet I never have.... go for it bwian I will nail your misinterpretation to the cross. I made the point that we should be identifying and fostering the differences, not smoothing them over and doing what the Islamists want - treat all Muslims the same.    We should punish those that break the law and help those that foster the law.  Yet you are naïve enough to think that all muslims are not united by their religion bwian...  they are, they are charged to despite their differences no matter how grave, to support each other and band together against the kuffar.

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:46pm:

Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:39pm: As you know, I'm not one of those. There are extremists in all walks of life. It's my position that the level of conservatism, fundamentalism, extremism, call it what you will has a much higher set point within Islam. It's also an undeniable fact that Christian countries are better insulated from religion due to secularism and separation of church and state. Brian, if we get an influx of Christian fundamentalists from USA or elsewhere and it becomes off limits to publicly critique them due to racism, I'll fill the boards with post. Mkay? Fine.  However, we have not had an "influx" of Muslims - they still only make up about 3% of our population.  The overwhelming majority of immigrants still come from Christian or secular societies.   So, why is everybody running 'round like chooks with their heads cut off?  Oh, thats right we have 3% of our population who are Muslim...   ::) So, I take it you don't believe we should accept any immigrants from any theocratic state?  Even if they are attempting to escape the theocracy that rules their old country and have indicated a desire to live in our (nominally) Christian/Secular state?    ::) Why is then possible for you to accept Catholics who owe their religious allegiance to the Vatican, one of the few theocratic states in the world?  Or British people?  Afterall, their Queen is also the head of their national church...    ::)

So what other populations are trying to kill us here bwian?
What other population are joining ISIS?

Grendel wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:41pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:08pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:53pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:23pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:18pm: "Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion. That's what all the Islamophobes say. (all terms are "made up", by the way) Unlike the left who just want to brush it off and pretend there is no issue. Despite the fact that not one of you can name any recent mass killings by any Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or any other r idiots group. How recent is recent Matty? 2 weeks because it fits your narrative? http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-shooting-rampages/ Go through it, I think out of 47 mentioned we have 3 to 4 carried out by people of Islamic faith. Are Christians more inclined to mass murder then? I'm sorry how many do ISIS kill each week, how many were blown to bits in IRAQ the other day? Boy, matty is soooo right when it comes to you apologists. ::)

I'm sorry who created ISIS?

And why no facebook changes for the 200+ MUSLIMS killed by them?

If we are so worried about Muslims you think we'd be patting them on the back seeing 99.9% of people they kill are Muslim in Islamic Countries.

Have you got 1 of their posters on your wall?

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:50pm:

I'm sorry who created ISIS?

Abu Musab al Zarqawi gets the credit for the Islamic state.
His first TV appearance was the Nick Berg beheading video.

Why are lefties so ignorant about Islam?

Grendel wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:45pm:

Westboro Baptist Church members 40 puhlease...  representative of Christianity :D :D :D

How many Muslim Terrorists have been convicted of Terrorism charges in Australia, Grendel?

Six IIRC.

Yet, all the bigots assume that tiny number are "representative of Islam"...    ::)

Grendel wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:48pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:41pm: Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:36pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:07pm: Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:28pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:16pm: Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" & Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat.[/url] We know Muslim countries have problems...  the video just points out that different Muslim countries have different problems. We know that...  what do they have in common? THEY ARE MUSLIM COUNTRIES... Yet their Islam differs markedly, between each country.  That is something the Fundamentalist Islamists want to see ended.   It is something we should be promoting.   Anything that divides Muslims and allows individuality to be seen and accepted, is a good thing IMO.    ::) So where was I wrong bwian? Oh right...  I wasn't... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Won't be long now the bwian yawn will be appearing and yet again he will have conceded victory to me. ;D Grendel, the only place you're wrong is describing Islam as a unified, monolithic religion. It's like suggesting that Christianity is a unified, monolithic religion.    ::) ::) yet I never have.... go for it bwian I will nail your misinterpretation to the cross. I made the point that we should be identifying and fostering the differences, not smoothing them over and doing what the Islamists want - treat all Muslims the same.    We should punish those that break the law and help those that foster the law.  Yet you are naïve enough to think that all muslims are not united by their religion bwian...  they are, they are charged to despite their differences no matter how grave, to support each other and band together against the kuffar.

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/122743/2332811-yawn_20smiley.jpg

Still can't handle that quote function, hey, Grendel?   ::)

Grendel wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:50pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:46pm: Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:39pm: As you know, I'm not one of those. There are extremists in all walks of life. It's my position that the level of conservatism, fundamentalism, extremism, call it what you will has a much higher set point within Islam. It's also an undeniable fact that Christian countries are better insulated from religion due to secularism and separation of church and state. Brian, if we get an influx of Christian fundamentalists from USA or elsewhere and it becomes off limits to publicly critique them due to racism, I'll fill the boards with post. Mkay? Fine.  However, we have not had an "influx" of Muslims - they still only make up about 3% of our population.  The overwhelming majority of immigrants still come from Christian or secular societies.   So, why is everybody running 'round like chooks with their heads cut off?  Oh, thats right we have 3% of our population who are Muslim...   ::) So, I take it you don't believe we should accept any immigrants from any theocratic state?  Even if they are attempting to escape the theocracy that rules their old country and have indicated a desire to live in our (nominally) Christian/Secular state?    ::) Why is then possible for you to accept Catholics who owe their religious allegiance to the Vatican, one of the few theocratic states in the world?  Or British people?  Afterall, their Queen is also the head of their national church...    ::) So what other populations are trying to kill us here bwian?

I'm not aware of any "population" which are "trying to kill us here," Grendel.

Very few, if any Muslims want to kill Australians.   Why try and claim an entire "population" is?

Oh, thats, right, we're talking about Muslims, yeah.   ::)


Quote:

What other population are joining ISIS?

I am completely unaware of an entire "population" which wants to join Daesh.   Can you name it for us, Grendel?   Oh, you mean Muslims?   But only a tiny minority of our population have attempted to join Daesh.    I suppose we could discuss the Fascists, the Communists who wanted to join in the Spanish Civil War?   What about the Croats and Bosnians who wanted to fight the Serbians?  How about the Serbians and the Croats and the Bosnians who wanted to fight in the Balkan Wars?   Plenty of others to choice from...   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:41pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:36pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:07pm: Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:28pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:16pm: Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" & Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat.[/url] We know Muslim countries have problems...  the video just points out that different Muslim countries have different problems. We know that...  what do they have in common? THEY ARE MUSLIM COUNTRIES... Yet their Islam differs markedly, between each country.  That is something the Fundamentalist Islamists want to see ended.   It is something we should be promoting.   Anything that divides Muslims and allows individuality to be seen and accepted, is a good thing IMO.    ::) So where was I wrong bwian? Oh right...  I wasn't... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Won't be long now the bwian yawn will be appearing and yet again he will have conceded victory to me. ;D Grendel, the only place you're wrong is describing Islam as a unified, monolithic religion. You said that before bwian, I denied it, its still a lie. It's like suggesting that Christianity is a unified, monolithic religion.    ::) ::) I've never said that either bwian, if fact on many occasions I've had to point out to the atheistic progressive left and ignorant moslems that Catholicism is not the entirety of Christianity. I made the point that we should be identifying and fostering the differences, not smoothing them over and doing what the Islamists want - treat all Muslims the same.    We should punish those that break the law and help those that foster the law.  What the Islamists want bwian is global Islam, how do you propose we dissuade them of that goal when their brother muslims are either too afraid or too supportive of them.

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 4:27pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:50pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:46pm: Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:39pm: As you know, I'm not one of those. There are extremists in all walks of life. It's my position that the level of conservatism, fundamentalism, extremism, call it what you will has a much higher set point within Islam. It's also an undeniable fact that Christian countries are better insulated from religion due to secularism and separation of church and state. Brian, if we get an influx of Christian fundamentalists from USA or elsewhere and it becomes off limits to publicly critique them due to racism, I'll fill the boards with post. Mkay? Fine.  However, we have not had an "influx" of Muslims - they still only make up about 3% of our population.  The overwhelming majority of immigrants still come from Christian or secular societies.   So, why is everybody running 'round like chooks with their heads cut off?  Oh, thats right we have 3% of our population who are Muslim...   ::) So, I take it you don't believe we should accept any immigrants from any theocratic state?  Even if they are attempting to escape the theocracy that rules their old country and have indicated a desire to live in our (nominally) Christian/Secular state?    ::) Why is then possible for you to accept Catholics who owe their religious allegiance to the Vatican, one of the few theocratic states in the world?  Or British people?  Afterall, their Queen is also the head of their national church...    ::) So what other populations are trying to kill us here bwian? POPULATION - particular group or type of people living in a place... YOU were the one who brought up other POPULATION GROUPS bwian not me...  YOU are the apologist....  apparently you're now pretending to be a pedantic fool as well. Goodo I'm not aware of any "population" which are "trying to kill us here," Grendel. Now ignoring that idiocy...  are you saying you are unaware of the people jailed (even just the other day) for trying to kill Australians in the name of Islam?  Or sending people to fight for ISIS? Very few, if any Muslims want to kill Australians.   Why try and claim an entire "population" is? I wasn't and you know I wasn't. Pedant. Oh, thats, right, we're talking about Muslims, yeah.   ::)  yes we are so you are not as stupid as you pretend to be eh. Quote: What other population are joining ISIS? I am completely unaware of an entire "population" which wants to join Daesh.  Did I say entire....  oh dear careful your idiocy is showing... Can you name it for us, Grendel?   Oh, you mean Muslims?  Yes I do mean Muslims, not Christians or Buddists or any other POPULATION  But only a tiny minority of our population have attempted to join Daesh.    I suppose we could discuss the Fascists, the Communists who wanted to join in the Spanish Civil War?   What about the Croats and Bosnians who wanted to fight the Serbians?  How about the Serbians and the Croats and the Bosnians who wanted to fight in the Balkan Wars?   Plenty of others to choice from...   ::) Yes, why didn't you mention the Crusades?  The Muslims mention them...  BTW we all know Multiculti is a failure.

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 4:23pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:48pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:41pm: Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:36pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:07pm: Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:28pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:16pm: Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" & Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat.[/url] We know Muslim countries have problems...  the video just points out that different Muslim countries have different problems. We know that...  what do they have in common? THEY ARE MUSLIM COUNTRIES... Yet their Islam differs markedly, between each country.  That is something the Fundamentalist Islamists want to see ended.   It is something we should be promoting.   Anything that divides Muslims and allows individuality to be seen and accepted, is a good thing IMO.    ::) So where was I wrong bwian? Oh right...  I wasn't... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Won't be long now the bwian yawn will be appearing and yet again he will have conceded victory to me. ;D Grendel, the only place you're wrong is describing Islam as a unified, monolithic religion. It's like suggesting that Christianity is a unified, monolithic religion.    ::) ::) yet I never have.... go for it bwian I will nail your misinterpretation to the cross. I made the point that we should be identifying and fostering the differences, not smoothing them over and doing what the Islamists want - treat all Muslims the same.    We should punish those that break the law and help those that foster the law.  Yet you are naïve enough to think that all muslims are not united by their religion bwian...  they are, they are charged to despite their differences no matter how grave, to support each other and band together against the kuffar.  http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/122743/2332811-yawn_20smiley.jpg Still can't handle that quote function, hey, Grendel?   ::)

Still losing the argument... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 4:21pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:45pm: Westboro Baptist Church members 40 puhlease...  representative of Christianity :D :D :D How many Muslim Terrorists have been convicted of Terrorism charges in Australia, Grendel? Six IIRC. Yet, all the bigots assume that tiny number are "representative of Islam"...    ::)

How disingenuous of you bwian... :D :D :D

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2012/09/15/1226474/864170-islamic-protest-in-sydney.jpg

http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/unreasonablefaith/files/2012/09/muslim-riots.jpeg

http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/muslim-riot-london-may-2011.jpg

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2012/09/16/1226475/171842-islamic-riots-in-sydney-cbd.jpg

http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2012/09/16/1226475/221095-sydney-riots.jpg

https://62e528761d0685343e1c-f3d1b99a743ffa4142d9d7f1978d9686.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/files/15568/width668/dyfj9t59-1347862716.jpg

http://www.digitaljournal.com/img/9/5/8/5/0/1/i/1/2/5/o/4752021913_92c8674e2f_o.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XiQcGVsD-d0/UFefcAel09I/AAAAAAAAHx8/CvjdTnLkLLo/s1600/tunic.jpg

http://www.qwire.net/Sydney%20Muslim%20riots%202012.jpg

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 12:16pm:

Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" & Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ibKWVTFSak

You should watch this smithy:

https://youtu.be/E9RmAo6XVAA

Not only does Reza Aslan misrepresent his qualifications, but he happily misrepresents stats too.

https://therealsasha.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/sydney-2012-muslim-protest-riot.jpg

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 12:39pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:28pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:16pm: Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" & Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat.[/url] We know Muslim countries have problems...  the video just points out that different Muslim countries have different problems. We know that...  what do they have in common? THEY ARE MUSLIM COUNTRIES... So why don't we refer to them as countries rather than religion. FGM as referred to in the video, is a christian country problem(or more to the point an African problem) yet in reporting we here it's Muslim countries, not only is this factually incorrect but even if they did report it correctly you can bet it would be described as an Eritrean or African problem NOT a CHRISTIAN Country problem. Stop bashing a religion & sheet home the blame to those that deserve it. Or better yet BAN ALL RELIGIONS, then no one would have an excuse.

Because the stats you're using were misrepresented.  While FGM may occur in majority Christian countries, it occurs by large within the Muslim communities.

And unfortunately it is a question of why these countries are all fcked up, and by and large it is because of regimes that make use of the bad ideas of Islam, hence root cause is the bad ideas of Islam.  And there is nothing wrong about being critical of bad ideas.

Grendel wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 5:06pm:

http://www.qwire.net/Sydney%20Muslim%20riots%202012.jpg

1000+ Angry Muslims in the CBD
The day Sydney Muslims tipped their hand.
The Sydney lost its trust.

http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2012/09/26/1226482/122387-muslim-riots.jpg

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 1:23pm:

matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:18pm: "Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion. That's what all the Islamophobes say. (all terms are "made up", by the way)

No comment on the actual article, regressive?

Oh no Gordon you have it all wrong bwian counted only 6.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Grendel wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 5:14pm:

http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2012/09/26/1226482/122387-muslim-riots.jpg

Should have deported every last person who attended

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:03pm:

Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 9:41am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 9:37am: salad in wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 8:46am: Mr Aly is not a muslim. If he were he would be fighting with ISIL. There is no verse in the koran that allows muslims to relax their harsh views. There is no mention in the koran of moderate muslims or radical muslims. There is no manichean type escape clause in the koran. If you cleave to the alleged religion of islam you are a muslim without any shades of grey, light grey, dark grey etc. Well not entirely true.  There are reformist Muslims who actually wish for their religion to undergo enlightenment as what happened with Catholicism.  And there are of course radicals/extremists, orthodox, and the moderates.  The regressive left are in fact supporting the conservative Muslims over the reformists. Really?  And on what basis do you come to the conclusion, Gordy?  Where have you read any "Left" writings?    ::)

The basis that people refuse to acknowledge the problems with the ideas of Islam and instead try to shift to "it's a country thing" or "it's just the one dictator" etc etc.  denialism of the problems for the sake of being "nice" about Islam simply means the reformists have no voice.  It's the regressive left siding with conservatives in Islam and accepting the medieval teachings.

Grendel wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 5:15pm:

Oh no Gordon you have it all wrong bwian counted only 6.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I saw the camera tapes directly from the event.
The tip of the spear numberd about 200.
About 1000 attended.  Some left as soon as they realised it was full of terrorists but many news why they were there.

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:15pm:

matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:10pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:08pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:53pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:23pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:18pm: "Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion. That's what all the Islamophobes say. (all terms are "made up", by the way) Unlike the left who just want to brush it off and pretend there is no issue. Despite the fact that not one of you can name any recent mass killings by any Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or any other r idiots group. How recent is recent Matty? 2 weeks because it fits your narrative? http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-shooting-rampages/ Go through it, I think out of 47 mentioned we have 3 to 4 carried out by people of Islamic faith. Are Christians more inclined to mass murder then? Have any of the non-Muslims who have killed done so in the name of their religion? Have they said that Christ or God has called them to kill? Or do they happen to be people of other religions who kill? https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qv_6lKYkXD4/hqdefault.jpg

Which is no longer the accepted view in Christianity, because the religion went through reformation.  What does Islam think about homosexuality?

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:07pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:28pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:16pm: Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" & Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat.[/url] We know Muslim countries have problems...  the video just points out that different Muslim countries have different problems. We know that...  what do they have in common? THEY ARE MUSLIM COUNTRIES... Yet their Islam differs markedly, between each country.  That is something the Fundamentalist Islamists want to see ended.   It is something we should be promoting.   Anything that divides Muslims and allows individuality to be seen and accepted, is a good thing IMO.    ::)

Name one Muslim country where women's rights, homosexual rights, freedom of speech, etc, are actually progressing instead of regressing.  Then ask yourself why.

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:46pm:

Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:39pm: As you know, I'm not one of those. There are extremists in all walks of life. It's my position that the level of conservatism, fundamentalism, extremism, call it what you will has a much higher set point within Islam. It's also an undeniable fact that Christian countries are better insulated from religion due to secularism and separation of church and state. Brian, if we get an influx of Christian fundamentalists from USA or elsewhere and it becomes off limits to publicly critique them due to racism, I'll fill the boards with post. Mkay? Fine.  However, we have not had an "influx" of Muslims - they still only make up about 3% of our population.  The overwhelming majority of immigrants still come from Christian or secular societies.   So, why is everybody running 'round like chooks with their heads cut off?  Oh, thats right we have 3% of our population who are Muslim...   ::) So, I take it you don't believe we should accept any immigrants from any theocratic state?  Even if they are attempting to escape the theocracy that rules their old country and have indicated a desire to live in our (nominally) Christian/Secular state?    ::) Why is then possible for you to accept Catholics who owe their religious allegiance to the Vatican, one of the few theocratic states in the world?  Or British people?  Afterall, their Queen is also the head of their national church...    ::)

It's not even about migration but rather the denial of liberalism to over a billion people in the world, in the name of Islam.  Why are we concerning ourselves about 3% population and claiming Islam is not a problem, when Islam has spread its fascist cloud over a billion people, and through its bad ideas denies people the liberties we enjoy, and the universal human rights that regressive leftists claim to support.  Last I saw, universal didn't mean "for western countries only".

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 2:50pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:41pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:08pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:53pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:23pm: matty wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 1:18pm: "Islamophobia" is just a term made up by the regressive left Muslim apologists to try to denigrate those of us who actually have valid and warranted concerns about Islam, which is more a political ideology than a religion. That's what all the Islamophobes say. (all terms are "made up", by the way) Unlike the left who just want to brush it off and pretend there is no issue. Despite the fact that not one of you can name any recent mass killings by any Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or any other r idiots group. How recent is recent Matty? 2 weeks because it fits your narrative? http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-shooting-rampages/ Go through it, I think out of 47 mentioned we have 3 to 4 carried out by people of Islamic faith. Are Christians more inclined to mass murder then? I'm sorry how many do ISIS kill each week, how many were blown to bits in IRAQ the other day? Boy, matty is soooo right when it comes to you apologists. ::) I'm sorry who created ISIS? And why no facebook changes for the 200+ MUSLIMS killed by them? If we are so worried about Muslims you think we'd be patting them on the back seeing 99.9% of people they kill are Muslim in Islamic Countries. Have you got 1 of their posters on your wall?

Who created Isis? Islam.

Grendel wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 4:29pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:41pm: Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:36pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:07pm: Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:28pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:16pm: Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" & Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat.[/url] We know Muslim countries have problems...  the video just points out that different Muslim countries have different problems. We know that...  what do they have in common? THEY ARE MUSLIM COUNTRIES... Yet their Islam differs markedly, between each country.  That is something the Fundamentalist Islamists want to see ended.   It is something we should be promoting.   Anything that divides Muslims and allows individuality to be seen and accepted, is a good thing IMO.    ::) So where was I wrong bwian? Oh right...  I wasn't... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Won't be long now the bwian yawn will be appearing and yet again he will have conceded victory to me. ;D Grendel, the only place you're wrong is describing Islam as a unified, monolithic religion. You said that before bwian, I denied it, its still a lie. It's like suggesting that Christianity is a unified, monolithic religion.    ::) ::) I've never said that either bwian, if fact on many occasions I've had to point out to the atheistic progressive left and ignorant moslems that Catholicism is not the entirety of Christianity. I made the point that we should be identifying and fostering the differences, not smoothing them over and doing what the Islamists want - treat all Muslims the same.    We should punish those that break the law and help those that foster the law.  What the Islamists want bwian is global Islam, how do you propose we dissuade them of that goal when their brother muslims are either too afraid or too supportive of them.

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/122743/2332811-yawn_20smiley.jpg

Still not handling that quote function very well, are you, Grendel.

Get back to me when you've managed it, OK?   ::)

Grendel wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 4:43pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 4:27pm: Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:50pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:46pm: Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:39pm: As you know, I'm not one of those. There are extremists in all walks of life. It's my position that the level of conservatism, fundamentalism, extremism, call it what you will has a much higher set point within Islam. It's also an undeniable fact that Christian countries are better insulated from religion due to secularism and separation of church and state. Brian, if we get an influx of Christian fundamentalists from USA or elsewhere and it becomes off limits to publicly critique them due to racism, I'll fill the boards with post. Mkay? Fine.  However, we have not had an "influx" of Muslims - they still only make up about 3% of our population.  The overwhelming majority of immigrants still come from Christian or secular societies.   So, why is everybody running 'round like chooks with their heads cut off?  Oh, thats right we have 3% of our population who are Muslim...   ::) So, I take it you don't believe we should accept any immigrants from any theocratic state?  Even if they are attempting to escape the theocracy that rules their old country and have indicated a desire to live in our (nominally) Christian/Secular state?    ::) Why is then possible for you to accept Catholics who owe their religious allegiance to the Vatican, one of the few theocratic states in the world?  Or British people?  Afterall, their Queen is also the head of their national church...    ::) So what other populations are trying to kill us here bwian? POPULATION - particular group or type of people living in a place... YOU were the one who brought up other POPULATION GROUPS bwian not me...  YOU are the apologist....  apparently you're now pretending to be a pedantic fool as well. Goodo I'm not aware of any "population" which are "trying to kill us here," Grendel. Now ignoring that idiocy...  are you saying you are unaware of the people jailed (even just the other day) for trying to kill Australians in the name of Islam?  Or sending people to fight for ISIS? Very few, if any Muslims want to kill Australians.   Why try and claim an entire "population" is? I wasn't and you know I wasn't. Pedant. Oh, thats, right, we're talking about Muslims, yeah.   ::)  yes we are so you are not as stupid as you pretend to be eh. Quote: What other population are joining ISIS? I am completely unaware of an entire "population" which wants to join Daesh.  Did I say entire....  oh dear careful your idiocy is showing... Can you name it for us, Grendel?   Oh, you mean Muslims?  Yes I do mean Muslims, not Christians or Buddists or any other POPULATION  But only a tiny minority of our population have attempted to join Daesh.    I suppose we could discuss the Fascists, the Communists who wanted to join in the Spanish Civil War?   What about the Croats and Bosnians who wanted to fight the Serbians?  How about the Serbians and the Croats and the Bosnians who wanted to fight in the Balkan Wars?   Plenty of others to choice from...   ::) Yes, why didn't you mention the Crusades?  The Muslims mention them...  BTW we all know Multiculti is a failure.

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/122743/2332811-yawn_20smiley.jpg

Still not handling that quote function very well, are you, Grendel.

Get back to me when you've managed it, OK?   ::)

Grendel wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 4:46pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 4:21pm: Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 2:45pm: Westboro Baptist Church members 40 puhlease...  representative of Christianity :D :D :D How many Muslim Terrorists have been convicted of Terrorism charges in Australia, Grendel? Six IIRC. Yet, all the bigots assume that tiny number are "representative of Islam"...    ::) How disingenuous of you bwian... :D :D :D

How?   ::)

Gordon wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 5:13pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:06pm: http://www.qwire.net/Sydney%20Muslim%20riots%202012.jpg 1000+ Angry Muslims in the CBD The day Sydney Muslims tipped their hand. The Sydney lost its trust.

Really?   ::)

Grendel wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 5:15pm:

Oh no Gordon you have it all wrong bwian counted only 6.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

There is a difference between being convicted of Terrorism and being convicted of public disorder, Grendel.

That you can't see that difference indicates what about your bigotry towards all Muslims?  Mmm?   ::)

Gordon wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 5:17pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:14pm: http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2012/09/26/1226482/122387-muslim-riots.jpg Should have deported every last person who attended

Bit hard to deport native born Australians...   ::)

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 5:19pm:

The basis that people refuse to acknowledge the problems with the ideas of Islam and instead try to shift to "it's a country thing" or "it's just the one dictator" etc etc.  denialism of the problems for the sake of being "nice" about Islam simply means the reformists have no voice.  It's the regressive left siding with conservatives in Islam and accepting the medieval teachings.

Really?  Perhaps you'd like to guide us through your thought process that arrived at that conclusion?

Ever consider that it might be just "one country" or "just one dictator" sort of thing, rather than being a universal Muslim issue?   Mmm?    ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 5:39pm:

Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:13pm: Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:06pm: http://www.qwire.net/Sydney%20Muslim%20riots%202012.jpg 1000+ Angry Muslims in the CBD The day Sydney Muslims tipped their hand. The Sydney lost its trust. Really?   ::)

Yes Brian.  I saw the raw footage direct from the news cameras.
Hope this helps

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 5:26pm:

It's not even about migration but rather the denial of liberalism to over a billion people in the world, in the name of Islam.  Why are we concerning ourselves about 3% population and claiming Islam is not a problem, when Islam has spread its fascist cloud over a billion people, and through its bad ideas denies people the liberties we enjoy, and the universal human rights that regressive leftists claim to support.  Last I saw, universal didn't mean "for western countries only".

What a shame you don't apply that thinking to other religions.  Christianity has been in the forefront of the suppression of human rights and liberal, secular thinking for over two thousand years in many countries.    Hinduism, the same in the Indian sub-continent.   Even Buddhism, in Tibet and Thailand is about hell bent on suppressing human rights and progressive thinking.   Yet, you concentrate purely in Islam and Muslims.  I wonder why?  Mmm?    ::)

Gordon wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 5:43pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:39pm: Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:13pm: Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:06pm: http://www.qwire.net/Sydney%20Muslim%20riots%202012.jpg 1000+ Angry Muslims in the CBD The day Sydney Muslims tipped their hand. The Sydney lost its trust. Really?   ::) Yes Brian.  I saw the raw footage direct from the news cameras. Hope this helps

So, 1,000 people are showing what all Muslims think?

So, the events of that day, affected all Sydneysiders to the point where they no longer trust Muslims?

Seems rather a broad set of claims to make, Gordon...   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 5:47pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:26pm: It's not even about migration but rather the denial of liberalism to over a billion people in the world, in the name of Islam.  Why are we concerning ourselves about 3% population and claiming Islam is not a problem, when Islam has spread its fascist cloud over a billion people, and through its bad ideas denies people the liberties we enjoy, and the universal human rights that regressive leftists claim to support.  Last I saw, universal didn't mean "for western countries only". What a shame you don't apply that thinking to other religions.  Christianity has been in the forefront of the suppression of human rights and liberal, secular thinking for over two thousand years in many countries.    Hinduism, the same in the Indian sub-continent.   Even Buddhism, in Tibet and Thailand is about hell bent on suppressing human rights and progressive thinking.   Yet, you concentrate purely in Islam and Muslims.  I wonder why?  Mmm?    ::)

Not true, if you have seen my posts you will see that I call out religion whenever it reveals it's ugly head. The difference is there isn't a "phobia" created by the regressive left to ignore the problems of Christianity/Hinduism/Judaism in fear of upsetting someone. 

And the only other difference is that autocratic dictator wankers aren't using Christianity/Judaism/Hinduism explicitely to deny liberty to people.  yet every time we see a woman being flogged for being raped, as a STATE punishment, it's because someone has decided to use Islamic teachings in their fascist regime.

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 5:43pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:19pm: The basis that people refuse to acknowledge the problems with the ideas of Islam and instead try to shift to "it's a country thing" or "it's just the one dictator" etc etc.  denialism of the problems for the sake of being "nice" about Islam simply means the reformists have no voice.  It's the regressive left siding with conservatives in Islam and accepting the medieval teachings. Really?  Perhaps you'd like to guide us through your thought process that arrived at that conclusion? Ever consider that it might be just "one country" or "just one dictator" sort of thing, rather than being a universal Muslim issue?   Mmm?    ::)

Sure, sometimes correlation does not equate to causation.  But when we have the Middle East and Africa under a fascist cloud, using sharia law to inflict punishment, or when we have Brunei turning to sharia law, or states in Malaysia and Indonesia, you're going to tell me it's just individual countries?  I'd say there's an underlying root cause, and it's a shame that you refuse to acknowledge it.  Why that is, is beyond me.

And you've just proven my thought process by again trying to suggest that when the ideas of Islam are being used to create totalitarian states in the world the problem isnt the ideas of islam.  It's like saying fascism isn't a problem - only hitler or Mussolini were.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 5:55pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:47pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:26pm: It's not even about migration but rather the denial of liberalism to over a billion people in the world, in the name of Islam.  Why are we concerning ourselves about 3% population and claiming Islam is not a problem, when Islam has spread its fascist cloud over a billion people, and through its bad ideas denies people the liberties we enjoy, and the universal human rights that regressive leftists claim to support.  Last I saw, universal didn't mean "for western countries only". What a shame you don't apply that thinking to other religions.  Christianity has been in the forefront of the suppression of human rights and liberal, secular thinking for over two thousand years in many countries.    Hinduism, the same in the Indian sub-continent.   Even Buddhism, in Tibet and Thailand is about hell bent on suppressing human rights and progressive thinking.   Yet, you concentrate purely in Islam and Muslims.  I wonder why?  Mmm?    ::) Not true, if you have seen my posts you will see that I call out religion whenever it reveals it's ugly head. The difference is there isn't a "phobia" created by the regressive left to ignore the problems of Christianity/Hinduism/Judaism in fear of upsetting someone.

I'd suggest that it isn't just a problem of the Left.  I'd suggest it's a problem of the Right as well.

So, you claim to call out religion whenever "it reveals it's ugly head", yet I don't believe I've seen you do that.


Quote:

And the only other difference is that autocratic dictator wankers aren't using Christianity/Judaism/Hinduism explicitely to deny liberty to people.  yet every time we see a woman being flogged for being raped, as a STATE punishment, it's because someone has decided to use Islamic teachings in their fascist regime.

So, Singapore is now an "Islamic country"?   ::)

I'd recommend you read a little more widely before commenting...

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 5:58pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:43pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:19pm: The basis that people refuse to acknowledge the problems with the ideas of Islam and instead try to shift to "it's a country thing" or "it's just the one dictator" etc etc.  denialism of the problems for the sake of being "nice" about Islam simply means the reformists have no voice.  It's the regressive left siding with conservatives in Islam and accepting the medieval teachings. Really?  Perhaps you'd like to guide us through your thought process that arrived at that conclusion? Ever consider that it might be just "one country" or "just one dictator" sort of thing, rather than being a universal Muslim issue?   Mmm?    ::) Sure, sometimes correlation does not equate to causation.  But when we have the Middle East and Africa under a fascist cloud, using sharia law to inflict punishment, or when we have Brunei turning to sharia law, or states in Malaysia and Indonesia, you're going to tell me it's just individual countries?  I'd say there's an underlying root cause, and it's a shame that you refuse to acknowledge it.  Why that is, is beyond me.

Oh, I agree that Islam does have it's problems but to ascribe to a religion written 1400+ years ago the problems created in the 21st century is rather strange IMO.  Particularly when you have so many other influences at work, such as Marxism/Communism/Capitalism/American Geo-Strategic and Energy policy/etc.

Islam, despite the claims of many Islamists has changed over the centuries to accommodate new thinking and has also retained a lot of old thinking as well.  Just like Christianity has as well.


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And you've just proven my thought process by again trying to suggest that when the ideas of Islam are being used to create totalitarian states in the world the problem isnt the ideas of islam.  It's like saying fascism isn't a problem - only hitler or Mussolini were.

Perhaps you'd care to quote from the Q'ran where it states that Islamic countries need to be totalitarian regimes?    ::)

You shouldn't mistake the thinking of some hard-line, totalitarian dictators for that of Islam on how to govern a nation.   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 6:14pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:55pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:47pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:26pm: It's not even about migration but rather the denial of liberalism to over a billion people in the world, in the name of Islam.  Why are we concerning ourselves about 3% population and claiming Islam is not a problem, when Islam has spread its fascist cloud over a billion people, and through its bad ideas denies people the liberties we enjoy, and the universal human rights that regressive leftists claim to support.  Last I saw, universal didn't mean "for western countries only". What a shame you don't apply that thinking to other religions.  Christianity has been in the forefront of the suppression of human rights and liberal, secular thinking for over two thousand years in many countries.    Hinduism, the same in the Indian sub-continent.   Even Buddhism, in Tibet and Thailand is about hell bent on suppressing human rights and progressive thinking.   Yet, you concentrate purely in Islam and Muslims.  I wonder why?  Mmm?    ::) Not true, if you have seen my posts you will see that I call out religion whenever it reveals it's ugly head. The difference is there isn't a "phobia" created by the regressive left to ignore the problems of Christianity/Hinduism/Judaism in fear of upsetting someone.  I'd suggest that it isn't just a problem of the Left.  I'd suggest it's a problem of the Right as well. So, you claim to call out religion whenever "it reveals it's ugly head", yet I don't believe I've seen you do that. Quote: And the only other difference is that autocratic dictator wankers aren't using Christianity/Judaism/Hinduism explicitely to deny liberty to people.  yet every time we see a woman being flogged for being raped, as a STATE punishment, it's because someone has decided to use Islamic teachings in their fascist regime. So, Singapore is now an "Islamic country"?   ::) I'd recommend you read a little more widely before commenting...

Well if you've never seen me do it perhaps open your eyes.  And it could very well be a problem of the right, I don't really care. What I care about is the fact that regressive leftists are completely demolishing the foundations of what real liberals have fought for, for the sake of "being nice" about a cruel fascist ideology.

And you can of course present the information relating to Singapore caning a woman for being raped?  I havent heard of your particular example.

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 6:20pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:58pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:43pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:19pm: The basis that people refuse to acknowledge the problems with the ideas of Islam and instead try to shift to "it's a country thing" or "it's just the one dictator" etc etc.  denialism of the problems for the sake of being "nice" about Islam simply means the reformists have no voice.  It's the regressive left siding with conservatives in Islam and accepting the medieval teachings. Really?  Perhaps you'd like to guide us through your thought process that arrived at that conclusion? Ever consider that it might be just "one country" or "just one dictator" sort of thing, rather than being a universal Muslim issue?   Mmm?    ::) Sure, sometimes correlation does not equate to causation.  But when we have the Middle East and Africa under a fascist cloud, using sharia law to inflict punishment, or when we have Brunei turning to sharia law, or states in Malaysia and Indonesia, you're going to tell me it's just individual countries?  I'd say there's an underlying root cause, and it's a shame that you refuse to acknowledge it.  Why that is, is beyond me. Oh, I agree that Islam does have it's problems but to ascribe to a religion written 1400+ years ago the problems created in the 21st century is rather strange IMO.  Particularly when you have so many other influences at work, such as Marxism/Communism/Capitalism/American Geo-Strategic and Energy policy/etc. Islam, despite the claims of many Islamists has changed over the centuries to accommodate new thinking and has also retained a lot of old thinking as well.  Just like Christianity has as well. Quote: And you've just proven my thought process by again trying to suggest that when the ideas of Islam are being used to create totalitarian states in the world the problem isnt the ideas of islam.  It's like saying fascism isn't a problem - only hitler or Mussolini were. Perhaps you'd care to quote from the Q'ran where it states that Islamic countries need to be totalitarian regimes?    ::) You shouldn't mistake the thinking of some hard-line, totalitarian dictators for that of Islam on how to govern a nation.   ::)

But that's just it isn't it?  The religion was created 1400 years ago, based on a incredibly strange individual who was clearly a misogynist, and has never really had any proper reformation, so it's teachings that are 1400 years old are still being used in the modern world.  And when we criticise this fact, the regressive left jumps up and down claiming it has nothing to do with Islam. Bullsh1t. This very fact is the exact reason why it has everything to do with the ideas of Islam.  They are 1400 years old!!  And Reformist muslims are being denied the chance to take on the reformation of Islam because everyone is trying to sugar coat the real reasons with "it's individual states. Or it's individual people. Or it's not Islam" etc etc. 

I never said Quran demands totalitarian state, I'm saying the teachings is Islam are anti liberal and no proper leftist should stand around defending them, for the the sake of being nice, or for fear of being labeled a rascist.

Marxism has not really had much influence in the ideology of the current fascists in the Middle East. But the fascism of Europe during ww2 did, sure.  The problem is it encouraged the creation of fascism regimes based on Islamic teachings, and the west never eradicated it as we did with nazism, Japanese empiralism, etc. except now we have regressive leftists telling us it's all fine and to criticise a state using sharia law is islamaphobic.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 6:27pm:

Well if you've never seen me do it perhaps open your eyes.  And it could very well be a problem of the right, I don't really care. What I care about is the fact that regressive leftists are completely demolishing the foundations of what real liberals have fought for, for the sake of "being nice" about a cruel fascist ideology.

It is not Fascist.  It is not particularly cruel, well no more than any other religion IMO and it is definitely not an "ideology".   It is a religion.


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And you can of course present the information relating to Singapore caning a woman for being raped?  I havent heard of your particular example.

Not for rape but for what we in Australia would consider misdemeanours such as graffiti.   Which is why I suggest you read more.  Obviously you haven't.   ::)

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 6:34pm:

But that's just it isn't it?  The religion was created 1400 years ago, based on a incredibly strange individual who was clearly a misogynist, and has never really had any proper reformation, so it's teachings that are 1400 years old are still being used in the modern world.

Mohammed was a product of his environment and was no more misogynist than most 13th century Arabian peninsular men, so trying to judge his views by our standards is rather difficult.

As for reformation, well there are arguments that Islam has undergone a constant renewal throughout it's history and the present conflict between the Sunnis and Sh'iate branches is one aspect of that.   I have read arguments that perhaps al Q'aeda could be because of it's constant war on non-supporters actually part of that reformation today.   Modernism exists and it does have followers within Islam.


Quote:

And when we criticise this fact, the regressive left jumps up and down claiming it has nothing to do with Islam. Bullsh1t. This very fact is the exact reason why it has everything to do with the ideas of Islam.  They are 1400 years old!!  And Reformist muslims are being denied the chance to take on the reformation of Islam because everyone is trying to sugar coat the real reasons with "it's individual states. Or it's individual people. Or it's not Islam" etc etc.

You don't think you're looking at this from an outsider's perspective?  I have reformist Muslim friends.   Turkey underwent a reformation (of sorts) when the Caliphate was overthrown just before WWI and again when Attaturk came to power.   I don't doubt from within Islam things look rather different to how you're portraying them.


Quote:

I never said Quran demands totalitarian state, I'm saying the teachings is Islam are anti liberal and no proper leftist should stand around defending them, for the the sake of being nice, or for fear of being labeled a rascist.

Yet Islam has, at various times, been very liberal in it's attitudes towards other religions and other societies.    Leftists is a convenient label and as far as I can tell you're talking bullshit yourself about what Leftists believe, think or do about Islam.   Personally, I believe Muslims must figure out how to reform their own religion.  All the bombarding them with demands to reform does is strengthen the conservatives and the Islamists, driving the moderates deeper underground.


Quote:

Marxism has not really had much influence in the ideology of the current fascists in the Middle East. But the fascism of Europe during ww2 did, sure.  The problem is it encouraged the creation of fascism regimes based on Islamic teachings, and the west never eradicated it as we did with nazism, Japanese empiralism, etc. except now we have regressive leftists telling us it's all fine and to criticise a state using sharia law is islamaphobic.

Again, I'd recommend you do further reading.   In particular look at the histories of Iran/Iraq/Syria/Egypt/Libya and then get back to us about what little supposed influence Marxism had on those nations' development in the 20th century.    ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 5:40pm:

Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:15pm: Oh no Gordon you have it all wrong bwian counted only 6.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D There is a difference between being convicted of Terrorism and being convicted of public disorder, Grendel. That you can't see that difference indicates what about your bigotry towards all Muslims?  Mmm?   ::) Not bigoted towards them at all...  just a realist, unlike yourself

Yes there is bwian your figures are wrong you omitted to count the dead ones too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Australia

You ignored the 150 or so now fighting for ISIS.

You ignore those involved in the Sydney protest/riot.

You keep ignoring so much...  talk about being in denial.
Oh and thanks for the other Victory YAWNS Bwian...   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
We all know you've got noting and are just running away. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 5:48pm:

Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:43pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:39pm: Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:13pm: Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:06pm: http://www.qwire.net/Sydney%20Muslim%20riots%202012.jpg 1000+ Angry Muslims in the CBD The day Sydney Muslims tipped their hand. The Sydney lost its trust. Really?   ::) Yes Brian.  I saw the raw footage direct from the news cameras. Hope this helps So, 1,000 people are showing what all Muslims think? So, the events of that day, affected all Sydneysiders to the point where they no longer trust Muslims? Seems rather a broad set of claims to make, Gordon...   ::)

I don't know what it means,  Brian but it's a bloody big worry we don't getting with Thais, Laos, Brazilians etc etc etc

Duke, you are an idiot.... bwian is right, he knows all... you are just wasting your time if you think he will ever concede a point.

BTW I don't think you are an idiot. I know bwian is though. :D

Grendel wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:02pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:40pm: Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:15pm: Oh no Gordon you have it all wrong bwian counted only 6.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D There is a difference between being convicted of Terrorism and being convicted of public disorder, Grendel. That you can't see that difference indicates what about your bigotry towards all Muslims?  Mmm?   ::) Not bigoted towards them at all...  just a realist, unlike yourself Yes there is bwian your figures are wrong you omitted to count the dead ones too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Australia You ignored the 150 or so now fighting for ISIS. You ignore those involved in the Sydney protest/riot. You keep ignoring so much...  talk about being in denial. Oh and thanks for the other Victory YAWNS Bwian...   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D We all know you've got noting and are just running away. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Good to see you coming to grips with that quote function at last, Grendel.

Now, as to your claims, I was talking about people who were convicted of Terrorism in Australia by Australian courts.

You seem hell bent on broadening this to include all Muslims.

What does that tell us about your bigotry, Grendel?  Mmmm?    ::)

Bwian says they have such small numbers...  a few are arrested, the protests mean nothing to bwian, he seems to forget how many people were killed in 911, by how many?

Bwian is a fool... Gordon.  He has nothing except his idiocy, hypocrisy and bigotry... :D :D :D

Come on bwian don't waste our time with your idiotic obfuscation and deflection....

Gordon wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:06pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:48pm: Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:43pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:39pm: Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:13pm: Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:06pm: http://www.qwire.net/Sydney%20Muslim%20riots%202012.jpg 1000+ Angry Muslims in the CBD The day Sydney Muslims tipped their hand. The Sydney lost its trust. Really?   ::) Yes Brian.  I saw the raw footage direct from the news cameras. Hope this helps So, 1,000 people are showing what all Muslims think? So, the events of that day, affected all Sydneysiders to the point where they no longer trust Muslims? Seems rather a broad set of claims to make, Gordon...   ::) I don't know what it means,  Brian but it's a bloody big worry we don't getting with Thais, Laos, Brazilians etc etc etc

Forgotten what Pauline was claiming, is claiming about all those Australians of Asian descent?

Back in the 1990s, there were fears amongst the less well educated and ignorant Australians of "Asians", the "Yellow Peril" and guess who was leading the charge on that?  Pauline Hanson and her PHONies.

My goodness, we even had Jolly Jack Tongeren over here in Western Australia fire bombing Chinese restaurants and murdering people.

Amazing how short the members of some Australians are, Gordon.   ::)

Grendel wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:09pm:

Duke, you are an idiot.... bwian is right, he knows all... you are just wasting your time if you think he will ever concede a point. BTW I don't think you are an idiot. I know bwian is though. :D

*SIGH* more argumentum ad hominem, Grendel?   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:15pm:

Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:06pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:48pm: Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:43pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:39pm: Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:13pm: Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:06pm: http://www.qwire.net/Sydney%20Muslim%20riots%202012.jpg 1000+ Angry Muslims in the CBD The day Sydney Muslims tipped their hand. The Sydney lost its trust. Really?   ::) Yes Brian.  I saw the raw footage direct from the news cameras. Hope this helps So, 1,000 people are showing what all Muslims think? So, the events of that day, affected all Sydneysiders to the point where they no longer trust Muslims? Seems rather a broad set of claims to make, Gordon...   ::) I don't know what it means,  Brian but it's a bloody big worry we don't getting with Thais, Laos, Brazilians etc etc etc Forgotten what Pauline was claiming, is claiming about all those Australians of Asian descent? Back in the 1990s, there were fears amongst the less well educated and ignorant Australians of "Asians", the "Yellow Peril" and guess who was leading the charge on that?  Pauline Hanson and her PHONies. My goodness, we even had Jolly Jack Tongeren over here in Western Australia fire bombing Chinese restaurants and murdering people. Amazing how short the members of some Australians are, Gordon.   ::)

Pauline was wrong on Asians but correct on Islam for reasons she doesn't actually understand. 

Grendel wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:12pm:

Bwian says they have such small numbers...  a few are arrested, the protests mean nothing to bwian, he seems to forget how many people were killed in 911, by how many?

2,996 people killed and injured more than 6,000 others, Grendel.

Their relevance to a conversation about Australian Muslims?  Very little.

Why do you keep trying to broaden this?  Why do you want to now talk about 11 September 2001?

Should we talk about Jack von Tongeren?   Afterall, he's your sort of person, isn't he?


Quote:

Bwian is a fool... Gordon.  He has nothing except his idiocy, hypocrisy and bigotry... :D :D :D

More argumentum ad Hominem?  Tsk, tsk, tsk.    ::)

Gordon wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:19pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:15pm: Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:06pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:48pm: Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:43pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:39pm: Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:13pm: Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:06pm: http://www.qwire.net/Sydney%20Muslim%20riots%202012.jpg 1000+ Angry Muslims in the CBD The day Sydney Muslims tipped their hand. The Sydney lost its trust. Really?   ::) Yes Brian.  I saw the raw footage direct from the news cameras. Hope this helps So, 1,000 people are showing what all Muslims think? So, the events of that day, affected all Sydneysiders to the point where they no longer trust Muslims? Seems rather a broad set of claims to make, Gordon...   ::) I don't know what it means,  Brian but it's a bloody big worry we don't getting with Thais, Laos, Brazilians etc etc etc Forgotten what Pauline was claiming, is claiming about all those Australians of Asian descent? Back in the 1990s, there were fears amongst the less well educated and ignorant Australians of "Asians", the "Yellow Peril" and guess who was leading the charge on that?  Pauline Hanson and her PHONies. My goodness, we even had Jolly Jack Tongeren over here in Western Australia fire bombing Chinese restaurants and murdering people. Amazing how short the members of some Australians are, Gordon.   ::) Pauline was wrong on Asians but correct on Islam for reasons she doesn't actually understand.

No, it's just the same ignorance and lack of education which is driving her hatred of Muslims as it did her hatred of Asians.    ::)

Not necessarily wrong.  The streets of Sydney and northern Sydney could  easily be mistaken for Hong Kong.

Black Orchid wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:23pm:

Not necessarily wrong.  The streets of Sydney and northern Sydney could  easily be mistaken for Hong Kong.

Why?  Are the streets of Hong Kong populated by Australians?   ::)

Remember, they are overwhelming Australian citizens nowadays. 

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 9:50pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 6:27pm: Well if you've never seen me do it perhaps open your eyes.  And it could very well be a problem of the right, I don't really care. What I care about is the fact that regressive leftists are completely demolishing the foundations of what real liberals have fought for, for the sake of "being nice" about a cruel fascist ideology. It is not Fascist.  It is not particularly cruel, well no more than any other religion IMO and it is definitely not an "ideology".   It is a religion. Quote: And you can of course present the information relating to Singapore caning a woman for being raped?  I havent heard of your particular example. Not for rape but for what we in Australia would consider misdemeanours such as graffiti.   Which is why I suggest you read more.  Obviously you haven't.   ::)

Oh I know of singapores caning, and obviously disagree with it and condemn it. But it's a different scenario and mentality to CANNING A RAPED WOMAN FOR BEING RAPED.  Find a religion where the Religious STATE does this other than Islam.

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:00pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 6:34pm: But that's just it isn't it?  The religion was created 1400 years ago, based on a incredibly strange individual who was clearly a misogynist, and has never really had any proper reformation, so it's teachings that are 1400 years old are still being used in the modern world.  Mohammed was a product of his environment and was no more misogynist than most 13th century Arabian peninsular men, so trying to judge his views by our standards is rather difficult. As for reformation, well there are arguments that Islam has undergone a constant renewal throughout it's history and the present conflict between the Sunnis and Sh'iate branches is one aspect of that.   I have read arguments that perhaps al Q'aeda could be because of it's constant war on non-supporters actually part of that reformation today.   Modernism exists and it does have followers within Islam. Quote: And when we criticise this fact, the regressive left jumps up and down claiming it has nothing to do with Islam. Bullsh1t. This very fact is the exact reason why it has everything to do with the ideas of Islam.  They are 1400 years old!!  And Reformist muslims are being denied the chance to take on the reformation of Islam because everyone is trying to sugar coat the real reasons with "it's individual states. Or it's individual people. Or it's not Islam" etc etc.  You don't think you're looking at this from an outsider's perspective?  I have reformist Muslim friends.   Turkey underwent a reformation (of sorts) when the Caliphate was overthrown just before WWI and again when Attaturk came to power.   I don't doubt from within Islam things look rather different to how you're portraying them. [quote] I never said Quran demands totalitarian state, I'm saying the teachings is Islam are anti liberal and no proper leftist should stand around defending them, for the the sake of being nice, or for fear of being labeled a rascist.

Yet Islam has, at various times, been very liberal in it's attitudes towards other religions and other societies.    Leftists is a convenient label and as far as I can tell you're talking bullshit yourself about what Leftists believe, think or do about Islam.   Personally, I believe Muslims must figure out how to reform their own religion.  All the bombarding them with demands to reform does is strengthen the conservatives and the Islamists, driving the moderates deeper underground.


Quote:

Marxism has not really had much influence in the ideology of the current fascists in the Middle East. But the fascism of Europe during ww2 did, sure.  The problem is it encouraged the creation of fascism regimes based on Islamic teachings, and the west never eradicated it as we did with nazism, Japanese empiralism, etc. except now we have regressive leftists telling us it's all fine and to criticise a state using sharia law is islamaphobic.

Again, I'd recommend you do further reading.   In particular look at the histories of Iran/Iraq/Syria/Egypt/Libya and then get back to us about what little supposed influence Marxism had on those nations' development in the 20th century.    ::)[/quote]

Except most views of 13th century misogynistic men are no longer used as some kind of ideology to follow, other than Mohammeds. In which case how can I not judge the "prophet" other than by today's standards?  All religious Islamic states judge his word as the word to being a good muslim, and have implemented state laws around it.  If you agree that he is a 13th century barbarian than you should agree Islam is not fit for today's day and age, and MUST change. In which case, your claim that Islam has reformed is bullshit because you don't see the same challenges to the "literal" word as we have had in Christianity and in Judaism.

As for demanding reform, what you say is typical regressive leftism.  If you believe in universal human rights than it isn't just up to Muslims to reform their own religion, but up to us to help the reformers and to ensure that it happens.  Universal human rights are not just for the lucky white and we get to seat around and say "you can have it too if you work at it, but we won't demand it." Universal human rights are just that: universal.  All of us must fight for them and if we see problems, from which people can barely escape from I might add, then it isn't right to seat back and say "don't interfere, it's not our problem."  That's how we got to suddam Hussein killing millions while the world sat around in its pathetic pacifist state. And it's the same with Islam: it isn't just up to Muslims to stop their religion being interpreted to mean a raped woman should be flogged. It's up to all of us to ensure that doesn't happen as it's obviously against universal human rights.  Hence, those who don't stand up are the regressive left, who accept the problems in Islam and don't wish to interfere for the sake of offending or seeming to be the "white supremist". 

Can you tell me, what is the view from within Islam which finds it acceptable to  flog a woman for being raped?  Or acceptable to kill apostates? Or kill journalists for making fun of the 13th century barbarian? It's not about being an outsider looking in, it's about being a person who views the world from a liberal stand point.  And Islam is anything but liberal.

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:15pm:

Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:06pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:48pm: Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:43pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:39pm: Gordon wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:13pm: Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 5:06pm: http://www.qwire.net/Sydney%20Muslim%20riots%202012.jpg 1000+ Angry Muslims in the CBD The day Sydney Muslims tipped their hand. The Sydney lost its trust. Really?   ::) Yes Brian.  I saw the raw footage direct from the news cameras. Hope this helps So, 1,000 people are showing what all Muslims think? So, the events of that day, affected all Sydneysiders to the point where they no longer trust Muslims? Seems rather a broad set of claims to make, Gordon...   ::) I don't know what it means,  Brian but it's a bloody big worry we don't getting with Thais, Laos, Brazilians etc etc etc Forgotten what Pauline was claiming, is claiming about all those Australians of Asian descent? Back in the 1990s, there were fears amongst the less well educated and ignorant Australians of "Asians", the "Yellow Peril" and guess who was leading the charge on that?  Pauline Hanson and her PHONies.  OH DEAR YELLOW PERIL WAS A TERM AROUND LONG BEFORE THEN BWIAN.  NEVER HEARD IT ONCE IN THE 5 YEARS I WAS ASSOCIATED WITH PHON. I ALSO KNOW THAT IMMIGRATION WAS ONLY THE TIP OF THE PHON POLICY ICEBERG, YET DUMB PEOPLE LIKE YOU BWIAN SEEM TO THINK IT WAS ALL THERE WAS AND YOU SCREAM INCORRECTLY RACIST LIKE THE RABID PROG YOU ARE. My goodness, we even had Jolly Jack Tongeren over here in Western Australia fire bombing Chinese restaurants and murdering people. MY GOODNESS WHAT ARE YOU DOING NOW BWIAN, TONGEREN NEVER HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH PHON NOW DID HE, TSK TSK TSK... HE STARTED A GROUP OVER THERE IN 1984 WASN'T IT?  HALF IDONESIAN HIMSELF WASN'T HE BWIAN CAME BACK FROM VIETNAM WITH SOME STRANGE IDEAS? Amazing how short the members of some Australians are, Gordon.   ::)

20 YEARS AND YOU ARE STILL A RABID PROG BWIAN :D

Grendel wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:12pm:

Bwian says they have such small numbers...  a few are arrested, the protests mean nothing to bwian, he seems to forget how many people were killed in 911, by how many? Bwian is a fool... Gordon.  He has nothing except his idiocy, hypocrisy and bigotry... :D :D :D

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/122743/2332811-yawn_20smiley.jpg

So, I take it from your response(s) Grendel that you want the reverse to be considered that ALL Muslims represent a "Danger" to Australian society?  That ALL Muslims support Terrorism?  That ALL Muslims follow the dictates of their spiritual leader, no matter how disconnected they are from modern life?  That ALL Muslims believe everything in the Q'ran, to the letter?

And you wonder why I call you a bigot?   Really?   You are so disconnected from modern life and in particular modern, Islamic life in Australia that it isn't even funny if you believe all that...  Tsk, tsk, tsk.    ::) ::) ::)

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:30pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 9:50pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 6:27pm: Well if you've never seen me do it perhaps open your eyes.  And it could very well be a problem of the right, I don't really care. What I care about is the fact that regressive leftists are completely demolishing the foundations of what real liberals have fought for, for the sake of "being nice" about a cruel fascist ideology. It is not Fascist.  It is not particularly cruel, well no more than any other religion IMO and it is definitely not an "ideology".   It is a religion. Quote: And you can of course present the information relating to Singapore caning a woman for being raped?  I havent heard of your particular example. Not for rape but for what we in Australia would consider misdemeanours such as graffiti.   Which is why I suggest you read more.  Obviously you haven't.   ::) Oh I know of singapores caning, and obviously disagree with it and condemn it. But it's a different scenario and mentality to CANNING A RAPED WOMAN FOR BEING RAPED.  Find a religion where the Religious STATE does this other than Islam.

in Deuteronomy 22:23-29, both the Raper and the Rapee are to be stoned to death.   Is Stoning worse than caning?  I think it's worse than being canned, though, don't you think?   Perhaps you do need to read more widely?  ::)

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:44pm:

Can you tell me, what is the view from within Islam which finds it acceptable to  flog a woman for being raped?  Or acceptable to kill apostates? Or kill journalists for making fun of the 13th century barbarian? It's not about being an outsider looking in, it's about being a person who views the world from a liberal stand point.  And Islam is anything but liberal.

There are ignorant people everywhere.   Perhaps you'd like to tell us if it's acceptable within Christianity to kill a doctor who performs abortions or to blow up the clinic where they are performed or shoot the person who guards such a clinic?    ::)

I have no idea whether or not it is generally acceptable to cane a raped woman within Islam.  I just know it isn't acceptable here and I doubt many Muslims in Australia would believe that caning  a raped woman would be acceptable.     ::)

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:40pm:

Except most views of 13th century misogynistic men are no longer used as some kind of ideology to follow, other than Mohammeds. In which case how can I not judge the "prophet" other than by today's standards?

If you accept him as divine, judgement is impossible.

If you don't accept him as divine, you cannot judge him by today's standards as he is not alive today and his views and actions must be viewed in light of the environment in which he existed.

Do you judge the Romans by today's mores or by the mores of the Roman Empire?   I'd judge them by their own mores.   I've often heard historians of Ancient Rome chuckling over what some Roman General or Emporer did in exacting punishment on some rebellious group or province.   Were they judging them by today's mores?   I rather doubt it.


Quote:

All religious Islamic states judge his word as the word to being a good muslim, and have implemented state laws around it.  If you agree that he is a 13th century barbarian than you should agree Islam is not fit for today's day and age, and MUST change. In which case, your claim that Islam has reformed is bullshit because you don't see the same challenges to the "literal" word as we have had in Christianity and in Judaism.

Nations which consider(ed) themselves to be "Good Christian nations" enacted laws around their Christian beliefs, which of course allowed slavery, servitude of women and children, penury of the peasants, etc.   Funny that.    Today's "Islamic religious states" (which there are only a few) enact various laws based on Sh'ria and the Q'ran.   Some are good laws, some are harsh and some stupid.   Sounds rather like Australia in that way, doesn't it?   No human devised system of laws is perfect, remember that.    ::)


Quote:

As for demanding reform, what you say is typical regressive leftism.  If you believe in universal human rights than it isn't just up to Muslims to reform their own religion, but up to us to help the reformers and to ensure that it happens.

Is exactly what I have proposed when you came into this thread...    ::)

So, it appears we are arguing 'round about in circles.    ::)


Quote:

Universal human rights are not just for the lucky white and we get to seat around and say "you can have it too if you work at it, but we won't demand it." Universal human rights are just that: universal.  All of us must fight for them and if we see problems, from which people can barely escape from I might add, then it isn't right to seat back and say "don't interfere, it's not our problem."  That's how we got to suddam Hussein killing millions while the world sat around in its pathetic pacifist state. And it's the same with Islam: it isn't just up to Muslims to stop their religion being interpreted to mean a raped woman should be flogged. It's up to all of us to ensure that doesn't happen as it's obviously against universal human rights.  Hence, those who don't stand up are the regressive left, who accept the problems in Islam and don't wish to interfere for the sake of offending or seeming to be the "white supremist".

Never took you to be an idealist.   There is a problem with demanding something of someone.  All too often they dig their heels in and refuse to do what you've demanded.   Ask them and you might be more successful.  Show them the way and do it yourself, you might have even more success.   Help them and your success rate goes up again.

Standing on the sidelines and making demands rarely works.    ::)

Standing on the sidelines, making demands and condemning them when they fail to live up t your expectations works even more rarely.    ::)

Standing on the sidelines, making demands and condemning them when they fail to live up t your expectations, and denying the ones who attempt to escape that society entry to your own when they come asking Asylum makes you look like a what?    ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 2:57pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:30pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 9:50pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 6:27pm: Well if you've never seen me do it perhaps open your eyes.  And it could very well be a problem of the right, I don't really care. What I care about is the fact that regressive leftists are completely demolishing the foundations of what real liberals have fought for, for the sake of "being nice" about a cruel fascist ideology. It is not Fascist.  It is not particularly cruel, well no more than any other religion IMO and it is definitely not an "ideology".   It is a religion. Quote: And you can of course present the information relating to Singapore caning a woman for being raped?  I havent heard of your particular example. Not for rape but for what we in Australia would consider misdemeanours such as graffiti.   Which is why I suggest you read more.  Obviously you haven't.   ::) Oh I know of singapores caning, and obviously disagree with it and condemn it. But it's a different scenario and mentality to CANNING A RAPED WOMAN FOR BEING RAPED.  Find a religion where the Religious STATE does this other than Islam. in Deuteronomy 22:23-29, both the Raper and the Rapee are to be stoned to death.

Quote:

But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death.

You wouldn't be ahhh...talking poo now would you?

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 2:57pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:30pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 9:50pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 6:27pm: Well if you've never seen me do it perhaps open your eyes.  And it could very well be a problem of the right, I don't really care. What I care about is the fact that regressive leftists are completely demolishing the foundations of what real liberals have fought for, for the sake of "being nice" about a cruel fascist ideology. It is not Fascist.  It is not particularly cruel, well no more than any other religion IMO and it is definitely not an "ideology".   It is a religion. Quote: And you can of course present the information relating to Singapore caning a woman for being raped?  I havent heard of your particular example. Not for rape but for what we in Australia would consider misdemeanours such as graffiti.   Which is why I suggest you read more.  Obviously you haven't.   ::) Oh I know of singapores caning, and obviously disagree with it and condemn it. But it's a different scenario and mentality to CANNING A RAPED WOMAN FOR BEING RAPED.  Find a religion where the Religious STATE does this other than Islam. in Deuteronomy 22:23-29, both the Raper and the Rapee are to be stoned to death.   Is Stoning worse than caning?  I think it's worse than being canned, though, don't you think?   Perhaps you do need to read more widely?  ::)

And which christian state does it?  Perhaps you should stop coming up with excuses?

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:00pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:44pm: Can you tell me, what is the view from within Islam which finds it acceptable to  flog a woman for being raped?  Or acceptable to kill apostates? Or kill journalists for making fun of the 13th century barbarian? It's not about being an outsider looking in, it's about being a person who views the world from a liberal stand point.  And Islam is anything but liberal. There are ignorant people everywhere.   Perhaps you'd like to tell us if it's acceptable within Christianity to kill a doctor who performs abortions or to blow up the clinic where they are performed or shoot the person who guards such a clinic?    ::) I have no idea whether or not it is generally acceptable to cane a raped woman within Islam.  I just know it isn't acceptable here and I doubt many Muslims in Australia would believe that caning  a raped woman would be acceptable.     ::)

There are ignorant people everwhere of course.  But only islamic states that take the ignorance and actually perform on it.  Stop making excuses.

... wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:36pm:

You wouldn't be ahhh...talking poo now would you?

Nope.  Are you?   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:12pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:40pm: Except most views of 13th century misogynistic men are no longer used as some kind of ideology to follow, other than Mohammeds. In which case how can I not judge the "prophet" other than by today's standards?  If you accept him as divine, judgement is impossible. If you don't accept him as divine, you cannot judge him by today's standards as he is not alive today and his views and actions must be viewed in light of the environment in which he existed. Do you judge the Romans by today's mores or by the mores of the Roman Empire?   I'd judge them by their own mores.   I've often heard historians of Ancient Rome chuckling over what some Roman General or Emporer did in exacting punishment on some rebellious group or province.   Were they judging them by today's mores?   I rather doubt it. Quote: All religious Islamic states judge his word as the word to being a good muslim, and have implemented state laws around it.  If you agree that he is a 13th century barbarian than you should agree Islam is not fit for today's day and age, and MUST change. In which case, your claim that Islam has reformed is bullshit because you don't see the same challenges to the "literal" word as we have had in Christianity and in Judaism. Nations which consider(ed) themselves to be "Good Christian nations" enacted laws around their Christian beliefs, which of course allowed slavery, servitude of women and children, penury of the peasants, etc.   Funny that.    Today's "Islamic religious states" (which there are only a few) enact various laws based on Sh'ria and the Q'ran.   Some are good laws, some are harsh and some stupid.   Sounds rather like Australia in that way, doesn't it?   No human devised system of laws is perfect, remember that.    ::) [quote] As for demanding reform, what you say is typical regressive leftism.  If you believe in universal human rights than it isn't just up to Muslims to reform their own religion, but up to us to help the reformers and to ensure that it happens.

Is exactly what I have proposed when you came into this thread...    ::)

So, it appears we are arguing 'round about in circles.    ::)


Quote:

Universal human rights are not just for the lucky white and we get to seat around and say "you can have it too if you work at it, but we won't demand it." Universal human rights are just that: universal.  All of us must fight for them and if we see problems, from which people can barely escape from I might add, then it isn't right to seat back and say "don't interfere, it's not our problem."  That's how we got to suddam Hussein killing millions while the world sat around in its pathetic pacifist state. And it's the same with Islam: it isn't just up to Muslims to stop their religion being interpreted to mean a raped woman should be flogged. It's up to all of us to ensure that doesn't happen as it's obviously against universal human rights.  Hence, those who don't stand up are the regressive left, who accept the problems in Islam and don't wish to interfere for the sake of offending or seeming to be the "white supremist".

Never took you to be an idealist.   There is a problem with demanding something of someone.  All too often they dig their heels in and refuse to do what you've demanded.   Ask them and you might be more successful.  Show them the way and do it yourself, you might have even more success.   Help them and your success rate goes up again.

Standing on the sidelines and making demands rarely works.    ::)

Standing on the sidelines, making demands and condemning them when they fail to live up t your expectations works even more rarely.    ::)

Standing on the sidelines, making demands and condemning them when they fail to live up t your expectations, and denying the ones who attempt to escape that society entry to your own when they come asking Asylum makes you look like a what?    ::)[/quote]
This is the stupidest excuse making i have heard to date.

1.  Noone is chuckling over tbe devine mohammed,  the general islamic awe of him is such that one gets killed for merely depicting him in a cartoon.

2.  I dont defend christian states, but last checked theyve learnt from their bad ideas.  The very fact that islamic states havent and still these laws exist is exactly what we are talking about.  Many laws afe stupid, but we are talking about obvious anti liberal and anti human rignts laws that sharia represents, and your obvious regression from a progressive position to a "its stupid but lets not criticise as we gave stupid laws too" position.  Stop excusing it.

3.  When has asking a fascist ever worked?  Are you a history revisionist now too? 

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:56pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14th, 2016 at 2:57pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:30pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 9:50pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 6:27pm: Well if you've never seen me do it perhaps open your eyes.  And it could very well be a problem of the right, I don't really care. What I care about is the fact that regressive leftists are completely demolishing the foundations of what real liberals have fought for, for the sake of "being nice" about a cruel fascist ideology. It is not Fascist.  It is not particularly cruel, well no more than any other religion IMO and it is definitely not an "ideology".   It is a religion. Quote: And you can of course present the information relating to Singapore caning a woman for being raped?  I havent heard of your particular example. Not for rape but for what we in Australia would consider misdemeanours such as graffiti.   Which is why I suggest you read more.  Obviously you haven't.   ::) Oh I know of singapores caning, and obviously disagree with it and condemn it. But it's a different scenario and mentality to CANNING A RAPED WOMAN FOR BEING RAPED.  Find a religion where the Religious STATE does this other than Islam. in Deuteronomy 22:23-29, both the Raper and the Rapee are to be stoned to death.   Is Stoning worse than caning?  I think it's worse than being canned, though, don't you think?   Perhaps you do need to read more widely?  ::) And which christian state does it?

None, hopefully.


Quote:

Perhaps you should stop coming up with excuses?

Who's making excuses?  You asked a question.  I provided an answer.   Don't you like people answering your questions - except the way you like them answered?

So, what's your opinion on the good book of Christianity, The Bible, suggesting that stoning was an appropriate punishment to both the Raper and the Rapee?    ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:02pm:

... wrote on Jul 14th, 2016 at 3:36pm: You wouldn't be ahhh...talking poo now would you? Nope.

Are you sure?  let's look at this again:


Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 2:57pm:

both the Raper and the Rapee are to be stoned to death.

... wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:36pm:

But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death.

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:04pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14th, 2016 at 3:56pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14th, 2016 at 2:57pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:30pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 9:50pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 6:27pm: Well if you've never seen me do it perhaps open your eyes.  And it could very well be a problem of the right, I don't really care. What I care about is the fact that regressive leftists are completely demolishing the foundations of what real liberals have fought for, for the sake of "being nice" about a cruel fascist ideology. It is not Fascist.  It is not particularly cruel, well no more than any other religion IMO and it is definitely not an "ideology".   It is a religion. Quote: And you can of course present the information relating to Singapore caning a woman for being raped?  I havent heard of your particular example. Not for rape but for what we in Australia would consider misdemeanours such as graffiti.   Which is why I suggest you read more.  Obviously you haven't.   ::) Oh I know of singapores caning, and obviously disagree with it and condemn it. But it's a different scenario and mentality to CANNING A RAPED WOMAN FOR BEING RAPED.  Find a religion where the Religious STATE does this other than Islam. in Deuteronomy 22:23-29, both the Raper and the Rapee are to be stoned to death.   Is Stoning worse than caning?  I think it's worse than being canned, though, don't you think?   Perhaps you do need to read more widely?  ::) And which christian state does it?  None, hopefully. [quote] Perhaps you should stop coming up with excuses?

Who's making excuses?  You asked a question.  I provided an answer.   Don't you like people answering your questions - except the way you like them answered?

So, what's your opinion on the good book of Christianity, The Bible, suggesting that stoning was an appropriate punishment to both the Raper and the Rapee?    ::)

[/quote]

I think youre confusing me for being rekigious.  Im not.  Christianity had its dark days too, and hence enlightenment.  The whole argment im making is that regressives such as yourself  must stop excusing islam as youure preventing its enlightenment everytjme you try and excuse away the current situation with a situation from the past.  Its a null argument tbat only shows your acceptance of the issues, and therefore acceptance of denial of human rights to over a billion people.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:58pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14th, 2016 at 3:00pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:44pm: Can you tell me, what is the view from within Islam which finds it acceptable to  flog a woman for being raped?  Or acceptable to kill apostates? Or kill journalists for making fun of the 13th century barbarian? It's not about being an outsider looking in, it's about being a person who views the world from a liberal stand point.  And Islam is anything but liberal. There are ignorant people everywhere.   Perhaps you'd like to tell us if it's acceptable within Christianity to kill a doctor who performs abortions or to blow up the clinic where they are performed or shoot the person who guards such a clinic?    ::) I have no idea whether or not it is generally acceptable to cane a raped woman within Islam.  I just know it isn't acceptable here and I doubt many Muslims in Australia would believe that caning  a raped woman would be acceptable.     ::) There are ignorant people everwhere of course.  But only islamic states that take the ignorance and actually perform on it.  Stop making excuses.

You keep calling explanations, excuses.  You don't think you have rather a narrow, moralistic viewpoint on this issue (crime and punishment)?

I'm yet to actually find an Islamic state that actually has caning of a raped woman on it's law books.  I'm not talking about Daesh, which everybody (except Daesh, obviously) agrees is loony. 


Quote:

Punishment of victims Main articles: Victim blaming, Honor killing, and Slut-shaming While the practice is condemned as barbaric by many present-day societies[citation needed], some societies punish the victims of rape as well as the perpetrators. According to such cultures, being raped dishonors the victim and, in many cases, the victim's family. In some countries (e.g. Libya, Afghanistan) rape victims are sometimes killed to restore honor to the family's name.[39][40] In the Shakespeare drama Titus Andronicus, the title character kills his raped, maimed daughter in what he believes to be a mercy killing. Certain cultures have historically promoted a system of honor, dishonor and shame, which was applied with particular strictness to females. A victim of rape would be considered to have lost her honorable reputation and place in society, a loss of honor which entailed shame on the woman's family group as well. In early ancient Rome, ancient China, and other cultures, a pressure has existed which has led women to commit suicide after becoming victims of rape. The iconic Roman instance is that of Lucretia. Likewise, suicide of female rape victims for reasons of shame is also historically documented in Chinese and Japanese culture. In countries which outlaw fornication or adultery, rape victims may become subject to these laws (if they cannot prove the rape case and/or if it is revealed they were not virgins at the time of the assault - in the case of unmarried victims).[41]

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_rape#Punishment_of_victims]Source[/url]

Ali Sina the ex muslim from Iran debunks the bullshit word called Islamophobia.

faithfreedom.org/oped/sina60526.htm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:45pm:

Ali Sina the ex muslim from Iran debunks the bullshit word called Islamophobia. faithfreedom.org/oped/sina60526.htm

The Islamophobes are still at it.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:04pm:

This is the stupidest excuse making i have heard to date.

Why do you keep mistaking explanation for excuse?   ::)


Quote:

1.  Noone is chuckling over tbe devine mohammed,  the general islamic awe of him is such that one gets killed for merely depicting him in a cartoon.

In some countries, yes it does.  In most countries it doesn't.  Mmm, maybe most Muslims are more tolerant than you believe?   ::)


Quote:

2.  I dont defend christian states, but last checked theyve learnt from their bad ideas.  The very fact that islamic states havent and still these laws exist is exactly what we are talking about.  Many laws afe stupid, but we are talking about obvious anti liberal and anti human rignts laws that sharia represents, and your obvious regression from a progressive position to a "its stupid but lets not criticise as we gave stupid laws too" position.  Stop excusing it.

Yet you excuse the Christian states and ignore them, everytime I mention them.   As for your claim that Islamic states haven't learnt, I find just incredible.  Islam is an incredibly diverse culture which exists from the Philippines to West Africa.  Some countries are regression (Iran/Saudi Arabia/the Arabian Peninsular) some are progressive (Tunisia/Morocco/Niger/Malaysia/Indonesia).   Most are in between.


Quote:

3.  When has asking a fascist ever worked?  Are you a history revisionist now too?

Well, it all depends on whether you believe they are fascist or not, I suppose.  As you appear to believe everybody you disagree with is a fascist, that makes it rather moot, don't you think?   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:44pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14th, 2016 at 3:58pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14th, 2016 at 3:00pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:44pm: Can you tell me, what is the view from within Islam which finds it acceptable to  flog a woman for being raped?  Or acceptable to kill apostates? Or kill journalists for making fun of the 13th century barbarian? It's not about being an outsider looking in, it's about being a person who views the world from a liberal stand point.  And Islam is anything but liberal. There are ignorant people everywhere.   Perhaps you'd like to tell us if it's acceptable within Christianity to kill a doctor who performs abortions or to blow up the clinic where they are performed or shoot the person who guards such a clinic?    ::) I have no idea whether or not it is generally acceptable to cane a raped woman within Islam.  I just know it isn't acceptable here and I doubt many Muslims in Australia would believe that caning  a raped woman would be acceptable.     ::) There are ignorant people everwhere of course.  But only islamic states that take the ignorance and actually perform on it.  Stop making excuses. I'm yet to actually find an Islamic state that actually has caning of a raped woman on it's law books.  I'm not talking about Daesh, which everybody (except Daesh, obviously) agrees is loony.

The Aussie lady Alicia Gali was jailed for reporting being raped in the UAE, women need 4 male witnesses to prove rape under sharia law if the offender denies it.
Lots of women get jailed for reporting being raped in countries with Islam as the state religion

Allah the most merciful of those who show mercy says the punishment for sex outside of marriage is 100 lashes, if they are married they get stoned to death.

Quote:

The unmarried woman or man found guilty of sexual intercourse- lash each one of them with 100 lashes, and do not take pity for them in the religion of Allah, and let a group of believers witness their punishment. quran.com/24/2

If bwian stopped telling lies perhaps more people would stay in his forum. ::) ::) ::) ::)

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:10pm:

[ I think youre confusing me for being rekigious.  Im not.  Christianity had its dark days too, and hence enlightenment.  The whole argment im making is that regressives such as yourself  must stop excusing islam as youure preventing its enlightenment everytjme you try and excuse away the current situation with a situation from the past.  Its a null argument tbat only shows your acceptance of the issues, and therefore acceptance of denial of human rights to over a billion people.

Tell me, what do you know about the Reformation and Counter-Reformation of Christianity and the Enlightenment period in Europe?

I'd guess bugger all, right, if you believe what you've just written.    ::)

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:54pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14th, 2016 at 4:44pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14th, 2016 at 3:58pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14th, 2016 at 3:00pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:44pm: Can you tell me, what is the view from within Islam which finds it acceptable to  flog a woman for being raped?  Or acceptable to kill apostates? Or kill journalists for making fun of the 13th century barbarian? It's not about being an outsider looking in, it's about being a person who views the world from a liberal stand point.  And Islam is anything but liberal. There are ignorant people everywhere.   Perhaps you'd like to tell us if it's acceptable within Christianity to kill a doctor who performs abortions or to blow up the clinic where they are performed or shoot the person who guards such a clinic?    ::) I have no idea whether or not it is generally acceptable to cane a raped woman within Islam.  I just know it isn't acceptable here and I doubt many Muslims in Australia would believe that caning  a raped woman would be acceptable.     ::) There are ignorant people everwhere of course.  But only islamic states that take the ignorance and actually perform on it.  Stop making excuses. I'm yet to actually find an Islamic state that actually has caning of a raped woman on it's law books.  I'm not talking about Daesh, which everybody (except Daesh, obviously) agrees is loony.  The Aussie lady Alicia Gali was jailed for reporting being raped in the UAE, women need 4 male witnesses to prove rape under sharia law if the offender denies it. Lots of women get jailed for reporting being raped in countries with Islam as the state religion Allah the most merciful of those who show mercy says the punishment for sex outside of marriage is 100 lashes, if they are married they get stoned to death. Quote: The unmarried woman or man found guilty of sexual intercourse- lash each one of them with 100 lashes, and do not take pity for them in the religion of Allah, and let a group of believers witness their punishment. quran.com/24/2 If bwian stopped telling lies perhaps more people would stay in his forum. ::) ::) ::) ::)

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