bullshit.

"A hijab-wearing academic married to The Project's Waleed Aly has been accused of equating Islam with feminism to ingratiate herself with her 'elite' left-wing university colleagues.

Muslim convert Susan Carland last week told an audience in Sydney's inner-west that feminism came from Islam, not just the secular West".

**

What a silly bitch - and she's supposed to be an academic with a Doctorate in Philosophy.

Only last week we were witness to Keysar Trad having to admit on the Andrew Bolt Show that Islam sanctions the beating of wives by their husbands.

**

"Dr Chavura said Dr Carland, a Monash University lecturer who regularly appears on the ABC, appeared to be driven by a desire to impress her left-wing academic and media friends.

'Naturally, the high-profile Muslims in the media and in universities are part of an elite, which are politically left-leaning so there is a lot of pressure on them to be able to reconcile their deepest, religious beliefs with the ideological beliefs of their peers,' he said.

He argued that approach also exposed the ideological flaws of the modern left, which argues that all cultures are equal".

**

"Dr Chavura called on Dr Carland and Muslims to acknowledge that the most brutal oppression of women occurred in Muslim-majority nations, where girls are still subjected to barbaric female genital mutilation.

'Sugar coating Islam is not necessarily the best way to reform Islam,' he said.

'I'm pretty sure you will find that a great deal of the most brutal sexism in the world, you'll find it more generally in those countries dominated by Islam and that needs to be acknowledged to understand why that would be the case".

**

"He also questioned the idea of associating Islam with feminism, considering how people in conservative Muslim-majority nations often associated the term with 'decadence, with moral degeneration, with the decline of the family, with sexual impurity'".

Ouch! That's got to hurt.

link

Then she must explain why women are seen as unclean and chattels and why they must walk behind, and why they need permission even as adults and must be chaperoned in public, and in some cases wear tents.

Why is it men can divorce women simply etc, etc, etc.... why can men have multiple wives....

This'll be good...

It's an insult that this silly, morally-compromised 'convert' thought she could slip this deceitful nonsense past an educated Western audience. I hope the Talkback shows give her hell.

What's this propagandising creature doing being allowed to lecture at Australia's universities? She needs to be a student, not a lecturer. Farcical. 

One thing it's brought to light very clearly is how our universities and media organisations are thick with Leftwing comrades. 

They make their womenfolk wear a bag on their heads.

It still tickles me how hysterical some people get over successful, confident, intelligent, hijab-clad muslim women.

I guess they present a big threat to some people.

The stupidity of muslims and their apologists is never more evident than on this particular issue.

They can't deny the qur'an says to beat the woman, so they slavishly waffle on about how big the stick should be, that you give her a touch up with.

What a bunch of retards muslims and their apologists are. 

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 4:07pm:

It still tickles me how hysterical some people get over successful, confident, intelligent, hijab-clad muslim women. I guess they present a big threat to some people.

Because successful, confident, intelligent people are still capable of speaking utter garbage.

Lord Herbert wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 1:53pm:

bullshit. "Muslim convert Susan Carland last week told an audience in Sydney's inner-west that feminism came from Islam, not just the secular West".

Moslems have no integrity.               [< ------ i'm tempted to write a short treatise on that subject]

And, Susan Carland, is a moslem.      !!!



"Ye [moslems] are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors."
Koran 3.110

"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because Allah has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them."
Koran 4:34



To every moslem woman,         her husband [a moslem man] is in effect,
Allah's proxy, here on earth.

And if moslem man, finds [i.e. chooses to simply deem] that his wife is constantly rebellious, and is constantly disobeying his commands, then it is within his lawful right to beat her, perhaps even to the extent of killing her.         [n.b. moslem women are beaten to death. it does happen.]





Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1494481920/4#4

Quote:

ISLAMIC law makes the murder of wives and children, 'lawful', under certain circumstances, e.g. apostasy ['rebellion' against ISLAM's authority i.e. 'rebellion' against the husband or the fathers authority ]. ISLAMIC law texts, specifically give moslem men, the right to kill their children [and grandchildren].     [cited, in the "British girl kidnapped by Saudi father" article above] And the murder of moslem women and children within moslem families often goes unreported - even, sometimes, within Western nations. Because such 'events' [within families] are not even 'crimes' within ISLAMIC law, and imams often teach that infidels should have no authority in such matters.

Related example.....


Quote:

Spain: "Pacifist" Imam Arrested on Terror Charges The New York Times once praised his moderation by Soeren Kern May 11, 2017 at 5:00 am     Several months after the New York Times published its hagiography of Shashaa, he was arrested for physically assaulting his third wife, who was hospitalized with a broken nose and shoulder. "The attack was obviously very brutal," a hospital spokesperson said at the time. >>>>>>> "What a man does with his wife does not concern the authorities," Shashaa said. <<<<<<< More than two weeks after Shashaa was arrested, the New York Times still has not reported on the fate of its poster boy for Salafist pacifism.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10332/hesham-shashaa

Gordon wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 3:12pm:

They make their womenfolk wear a bag on their heads.

in Dubai they walk behind their master...all 4 of them... whilst he boastfully carried his son in a pouch thingy at the front... it was hilarious watching someone take photos of the group...women all in black eyes only visible.. he dressed in head to toe flowing white and red... smiling making sure  his rightside was being  taken...lolol..

yep they are emancipated alright.

cods wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 6:25pm:

Gordon wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 3:12pm: They make their womenfolk wear a bag on their heads. in Dubai they walk behind their master...all 4 of them... whilst he boastfully carried his son in a pouch thingy at the front... it was hilarious watching someone take photos of the group...women all in black eyes only visible.. he dressed in head to toe flowing white and red... smiling making sure  his rightside was being  taken...lolol.. yep they are emancipated alright.

Imagine if a white man sat down with a bunch of Uni students to draft rules of a brand new religion to get their input, and you presented all these delightful nuggets of Islam. How would they react?

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 4:07pm:

It still tickles me how hysterical some people get over successful, confident, intelligent, hijab-clad muslim women. I guess they present a big threat to some people.

Indeed, indeed, G.   It appears some people fear the idea of someone being successful, for some reason...   ::) ::)

Brian Ross wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 6:47pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 4:07pm: It still tickles me how hysterical some people get over successful, confident, intelligent, hijab-clad muslim women. I guess they present a big threat to some people. Indeed, indeed, G.   It appears some people fear the idea of someone being successful, for some reason...   ::) ::)

no pet... its the lies the myths they spruik..

Islam  began FEMINISM....... ;D ;D ;D ;D

well of course you believe that.....

but some of us DONT>

Brian Ross wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 6:47pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 4:07pm: It still tickles me how hysterical some people get over successful, confident, intelligent, hijab-clad muslim women. I guess they present a big threat to some people. Indeed, indeed, G.   It appears some people fear the idea of someone being successful, for some reason...   ::) ::)

LOL

Susan Carland, is not 'successful'.       ....not imo.


What Susan Carland is,       is a 'darling' of the followers of leftist politics in Australia.

That is all.

Gordon wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 3:12pm:

They make their womenfolk wear a bag on their heads.

What if they choose to do it?

cods wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 7:01pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 6:47pm: polite_gandalf wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 4:07pm: It still tickles me how hysterical some people get over successful, confident, intelligent, hijab-clad muslim women. I guess they present a big threat to some people. Indeed, indeed, G.   It appears some people fear the idea of someone being successful, for some reason...   ::) ::) no pet... its the lies the myths they spruik.. Islam  began FEMINISM....... ;D ;D ;D ;D well of course you believe that..... but some of us DONT>

I think I've found the perfect definition of what women's emancipation ISN'T:

A bunch of chauvinist men taunting a woman who dares show some pride in her feminism and calling her a "stupid bitch" - and women coming along to cheer them on. What do you reckon cods?

cods wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 7:01pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 6:47pm: polite_gandalf wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 4:07pm: It still tickles me how hysterical some people get over successful, confident, intelligent, hijab-clad muslim women. I guess they present a big threat to some people. Indeed, indeed, G.   It appears some people fear the idea of someone being successful, for some reason...   ::) ::) no pet... its the lies the myths they spruik.. Islam  began FEMINISM....... ;D ;D ;D ;D well of course you believe that..... but some of us DONT>

The problem with these people is that they're not using the right arguments to forward their views. The idea that any religion is 'feminist' is clearly non-sense. When that woman on Q&A said 'Islam is the most feminist religion', she shouldn't have said that; she should've said instead: "no religion is feminist even Christianity or Judaism. I believe in the secular state and believe that religion is personal." This is what she should've said.

So, to answer your post, no religion is feminist; Feminism was born out of atheism and non-theism. It was, if anything, a response to Judeo-Christian patriarchal societies at the time.

The other issue is that many people don't know how to find the right balance between 'responsible speech' and condemning heinous practices in Muslim-majority countries. In most cases, they would be alienated from their local community at one wrong word and nobody wants that.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 4:07pm:

It still tickles me how hysterical some people get over successful, confident, intelligent, hijab-clad muslim women. I guess they present a big threat to some people.

More like a 'big insult' to many people.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 4:07pm:

It still tickles me how hysterical some people get over successful, confident, intelligent, hijab-clad muslim women. I guess they present a big threat to some people.

Right on schedule the use of ad hominem makes its highly predictable appearance as a substitute for arguing the point.

As an academic and a teacher this woman had a duty to her audience not to insult their intelligence with the deceitful nonsense she was trying to peddle as truth. Here we are witness to someone of her academic credentials and public profile who feels perfectly free to spruik patent lies with regard to Islam and women's rights - as a massive example of defending and promoting Islam through the device of 'taqiyya'.


Quote:

There are several forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, the best known being taqiyya. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

cods wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 7:01pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 6:47pm: polite_gandalf wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 4:07pm: It still tickles me how hysterical some people get over successful, confident, intelligent, hijab-clad muslim women. I guess they present a big threat to some people. Indeed, indeed, G.   It appears some people fear the idea of someone being successful, for some reason...   ::) ::) no pet... its the lies the myths they spruik.. Islam  began FEMINISM....... ;D ;D ;D ;D well of course you believe that..... but some of us DONT>

Who says I believe that, Cods?  You?  Erecting strawman arguments again?  Tsk, tsk.

My problem is that people focus on what this woman is wearing and what she believes, rather than the message she is conveying.    ::)

Brian Ross wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 10:21pm:

cods wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 7:01pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 6:47pm: polite_gandalf wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 4:07pm: It still tickles me how hysterical some people get over successful, confident, intelligent, hijab-clad muslim women. I guess they present a big threat to some people. Indeed, indeed, G.   It appears some people fear the idea of someone being successful, for some reason...   ::) ::) no pet... its the lies the myths they spruik.. Islam  began FEMINISM....... ;D ;D ;D ;D well of course you believe that..... but some of us DONT> Who says I believe that, Cods?  You?  Erecting strawman arguments again?  Tsk, tsk. My problem is that people focus on what this woman is wearing and what she believes, rather than the message she is conveying.    ::)

no pet    your problem is you dont read the OP>.

which is all about her comment on feminism.... ;D ;D ;D

pot calling kettle me thinks..

herb even spelt it out for you.

cods wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 10:29pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 10:21pm: cods wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 7:01pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 6:47pm: polite_gandalf wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 4:07pm: It still tickles me how hysterical some people get over successful, confident, intelligent, hijab-clad muslim women. I guess they present a big threat to some people. Indeed, indeed, G.   It appears some people fear the idea of someone being successful, for some reason...   ::) ::) no pet... its the lies the myths they spruik.. Islam  began FEMINISM....... ;D ;D ;D ;D well of course you believe that..... but some of us DONT> Who says I believe that, Cods?  You?  Erecting strawman arguments again?  Tsk, tsk. My problem is that people focus on what this woman is wearing and what she believes, rather than the message she is conveying.    ::) no pet    your problem is you dont read the OP>. which is all about her comment on feminism.... ;D ;D ;D pot calling kettle me thinks.. herb even spelt it out for you.

Did you, Cods?

Did you miss the opening sentence:


Quote:

A hijab-wearing academic married to The Project's Waleed Aly has been accused of equating Islam with feminism to ingratiate herself with her 'elite' left-wing university colleagues.

Who cares what she's wearing?   Who cares who she is married to?   I don't.   Do you?  Do you call yourself a feminist and yet you don't get upset at the attitudes on display here which belittle this woman in a sexist manner?  Tsk, tsk, Cods.    ::)

Auggie wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 7:17pm:

Gordon wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 3:12pm: They make their womenfolk wear a bag on their heads. What if they choose to do it?

What if they dont? What do you reckon the outcome might be?

Brian Ross wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 10:21pm:

My problem is that people focus on what this woman is wearing and what she believes, rather than the message she is conveying.    ::)

What is the message she is conveying, Brian?

Do tell us.

Brian Ross wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 10:39pm:

Who cares what she's wearing?

Er... Muslims care what she's wearing.
A mufti did:

THE nation's most senior Muslim cleric has blamed immodestly dressed women who don't wear Islamic headdress for being preyed on by men and likened them to abandoned "meat" that attracts voracious animals.

You must take Muslims - everyone - at their word.

Frank wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 10:57pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 10:39pm: Who cares what she's wearing?  Er... Muslims care what she's wearing. A mufti did: THE nation's most senior Muslim cleric has blamed immodestly dressed women who don't wear Islamic headdress for being preyed on by men and likened them to abandoned "meat" that attracts voracious animals. You must take Muslims - everyone - at their word.

A Mufti who was deposed because he was too embarrassing to the majority of Muslims.  Tsk, tsk, Soren.  Amazing you appear to have forgotten that...    ::) ::)

rhino wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 10:43pm:

Auggie wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 7:17pm: Gordon wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 3:12pm: They make their womenfolk wear a bag on their heads. What if they choose to do it? What if they dont? What do you reckon the outcome might be?

In the case of Australia, nothing would happen to them. They may suffer repercussions from their own community, but legally nothing would happen to them in Australia.

theres a thread on here about using DUCT TAPE   its all about wearing....I dont see you complaining about that brian???....you just seem hooked on anyone daring to mention wearing a head scarf ..

now we have the full body bathing suit..hair cover included.....no kidding even in front of other women..  ::) ::).. it is normal to be covered head to toe....I worry about people who have the mental attitude towards the body....it seems almost as if !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..

well best I not say.

 

cods wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:48pm:

theres a thread on here about using DUCT TAPE   its all about wearing....I dont see you complaining about that brian???....you just seem hooked on anyone daring to mention wearing a head scarf .. now we have the full body bathing suit..hair cover included.....no kidding even in front of other women..  ::) ::).. it is normal to be covered head to toe....I worry about people who have the mental attitude towards the body....it seems almost as if !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.. well best I not say.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/28/de/7c/28de7ce5dd89d0fd022ddbc27884d515.jpg

go away...

Auggie wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 7:17pm:

Gordon wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 3:12pm: They make their womenfolk wear a bag on their heads. What if they choose to do it  ?

augcaesarustus,

They must 'do it'.


"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them.         Good women are obedient.       They guard their unseen parts because Allah has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them."
Koran 4:34




augcaesarustus,

What can happen if they choose       not       'to do it'  ?



Examples of what can happen when moslem women choose to       not       wear the hijab.....


Quote:

Spain: "Pacifist" Imam Arrested on Terror Charges The New York Times once praised his moderation by Soeren Kern May 11, 2017 at 5:00 am     Several months after the New York Times published its hagiography of Shashaa, he was arrested for physically assaulting his third wife, who was hospitalized with a broken nose and shoulder. "The attack was obviously very brutal," a hospital spokesperson said at the time. >>>>>>> "What a man does with his wife does not concern the authorities," Shashaa said. <<<<<<< More than two weeks after Shashaa was arrested, the New York Times still has not reported on the fate of its poster boy for Salafist pacifism.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10332/hesham-shashaa




MORE......

By Robert Spencer on May 02, 2017 08:44 pm
Female Iranian footballer kicked off national team for playing without hijab in Switzerland
The Leftist intelligentsia is very concerned to protect the rights of Muslim women in the U.S. who wish to wear hijab. Very well. No one should harass any woman who chooses to wear hijab. But will they stand with Shiva Amini? Do they have any sense of solidarity with her? Or would supporting a woman


By Robert Spencer on Apr 26, 2017 09:26 am
Austrian President: Day will come when we ask all women to wear headscarf
Because of “rampant Islamophobia,” to stand in “solidarity” with hijab-wearing Muslim women. Great. But who stands in solidarity with Aqsa Parvez, whose Muslim father choked her to death with her hijab after she refused to wear it? Or with Amina Muse Ali, a Christian woman in Somalia whom Muslims murdered because she wasn’t wearing a


By Robert Spencer on Apr 18, 2017 09:34 am
Saudi dad tells daughter hijab is her choice, Western media thrilled, Saudi women still face arrest for taking off hijab
Lamyaa’s exchange with her father has gone viral, trumpeted as evidence that women, specifically hijab-wearing women, are not oppressed and are wearing it, as Linda Sarsour and others insist, by their own choice. Lamyaa did receive some pushback, however, from people who pointed out that for many Muslim women, wearing the hijab is quite clearly


By Christine Williams on Apr 01, 2017 07:25 am
Italy: Muslim mom shaves head of daughter for not wearing hijab
The Bologna coordinator of the Muslim community, Yassine Lafram, also took the girl’s side in the matter,

stating that according to Islamic tradition “any form of coercion makes the act itself invalid.”

All the prescriptions of Islam, from the Ramadan fast to the pilgrimage to Mecca, “are part of a free choice of the person          [ <------ moslems LYING  ]



< ----------

MOSLEM WOMEN ALWAYS, ALWAYS LIE [i.e. whenever lying is 'necessary'].

Mohammed said they do it [sinning] because all women are mentally defective.



We can see moslem women time and time again, telling        BARE FACED LIES,       in order to defend the 'virtue' of their faith !


ISLAMIC LAW TEXT....
"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."

cods wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 4:15pm:

go away...

Quote:

it is normal to be covered head to toe....I worry about people who have the mental attitude towards the body

Have you suddenly stopped worrying?

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:35pm:

rhino wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 10:43pm: Auggie wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 7:17pm: Gordon wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 3:12pm: They make their womenfolk wear a bag on their heads. What if they choose to do it? What if they dont? What do you reckon the outcome might be? In the case of Australia, nothing would happen to them. They may suffer repercussions from their own community, but legally nothing would happen to them in Australia.

augcaesarustus,

Are you        LYING       on purpose ?

Or are you lying, simply out of ignorance, yours ?



Moslem women living within Western nations are frequently murdered by members of their own family.

Why so ?

Because the victims rebelled, and did not want to be bound by the strictures which ISLAM placed upon their lives.

So they were righteously, and lawfully killed, usually by members of their own family.

Living within a secular jurisdiction, isn't always a guarantee of their bodily safety.

Coz, many, many moslems         ROUTINELY         ignore laws of their adoptive nations.


e.g.

Quote:

"[a respected moslem community spokesman has] called on Australian Muslims to spurn secular democracy and Western notions of moderate Islam... ...[moslems in Australia were told] that democracy is "haram" (forbidden) for Muslims, whose political engagement should be be based purely on Islamic law. "We must adhere to Islam and Islam alone," Mr Hanif [said]"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/australia-members-of-hizb-ut-tahrir-say-country-is-god-forsaken-and-that-muslims-must-shun-secular-a.html



.




Yadda wrote on May 11^th, 2017 at 3:52pm:

ISLAMIC law makes the murder of wives and children, 'lawful', under certain circumstances, e.g. apostasy ['rebellion' against ISLAM's authority i.e. 'rebellion' against the husband or the fathers authority ]. ISLAMIC law texts, specifically give moslem men, the right to kill their children [and grandchildren].     [cited, in the "British girl kidnapped by Saudi father" article above] And the murder of moslem women and children within moslem families often goes unreported - even, sometimes, within Western nations. Because such 'events' [within families] are not even 'crimes' within ISLAMIC law, and imams often teach that infidels should have no authority in such matters.

Quote:

Moslem women living within Western nations are frequently murdered by members of their own family.

Justify that with particulars.

Aussie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 4:50pm:

Quote: Moslem women living within Western nations are frequently murdered by members of their own family. Justify that with particulars.

'Aussie', would i lie to you ?                   :)

Yadda,

We're talking about Australia here, not Muslim-majority countries. There is no legal punishment for not wearing the Hijab in Australia, is there?

A woman can wear the hijab one day, and then take it off the next without any legal recourse.

Yadda wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 5:48pm:

Moslem women living within Western nations are frequently murdered by members of their own family.

That has nothing to do with the laws of the country.

What I meant was that nothing would happen to them LEGALLY in Australia; i.e. the Government won't come after them and arrest them.

Yadda said.....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1412250347/7#7

Georgia: Muslim stabs sister for refusing to wear hijab


More ?

OK......

--------- >

The first Google search refers to Banaz Mahmod.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/06_02/deadDM1106_228x189.jpg



Banaz Mahmod          was raped for hours by her moslem father and uncle,           and then her father garrotted her with a bootlace, stuffed her body into an old suitcase and buried it.

Google;
uk muslim daughter Banaz, found buried backyard suitcase



Quote:

23-27 documented honor killings every year in the U.S., many more go unreported November 10, 2015 3:25 pm By Robert Spencer Hidden among thousands of nondescript murders and cases labeled as domestic violence are a mounting number of killings motivated by a radical and dark interpretation of Islam. Honor killings and violence, which typically see men victimize wives and daughters because of behavior that has somehow insulted their faith, are among the most secretive crimes in society, say experts.

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/11/23-27-documented-honor-killings-every-year-in-the-u-s-many-more-go-unreported



Google;
uk muslim honour killings

Google;
usa muslim honour killings

So what should we do about it, Yadda?

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 5:49pm:

Yadda, We're talking about Australia here, not Muslim-majority countries. There is no legal punishment for not wearing the Hijab in Australia, is there? A woman can wear the hijab one day, and then take it off the next without any legal recourse.

augcaesarustus,

That, is        not        what many 'Aussie' moslems believe !!

And augcaesarustus, what people believe,      always informs and 'guides' their conduct.      !!!!!

You know that.         ;)




augcaesarustus,

Moslems are violent people.

But Allah forgives moslems                 [......for murdering his enemies].

Coz, Allah is Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

You know that it is true!

/sarc off



.





Quote:

Australia a Muslim nation October 08, 2006 AUSTRALIA is a Muslim nation, the head of Prime Minister John Howard's Muslim advisory board says. Dr Ameer Ali says most Australians practise Muslim values but the Muslim community is being alienated and disadvantaged by Islamophobia. Dr Ali said multiculturalism was Australia's destiny but Muslims, as latecomers, were being disadvantaged.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20545617-1702,00.html

the link is old, but the article is kosher



.



ISLAMIC law allows [i.e. makes it lawful for] moslem men to marry 9 a year old girl,
even in Australia.

And moslems want Sharia law to be imposed in those nations where moslems live.



Evidence ?
peruse the content of this page.....
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/opinion-polls.aspx




.





Quote:

"Peace summarises everything in Islam, because it means submitting your will to God, so you acquire peace through it," he said. "When I'm following its [i.e. ISLAM's] teachings, I know that my own actions are in line     with what my creator wants, and hence I am at peace with myself, [with] my community and the rest of the world."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-19/darwins-muslim-community-tackles-discrimination-at-meeting/6025586?section=nt




IMAGE....
http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/5814780-3x2-700x467.jpg


Quote:

"Mr Yunus has been encouraging peaceful community bridging since starting his post as Darwin's Islamic leader in 2014."

- ABC news report - 2015-01-19



QUOTE;
"Peace summarises everything in Islam..."
- Mr Yunus

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 5:54pm:

So what should we do about it, Yadda?

No, no, augcaesarustus !

I insist.



You tell us,        ........what should we do about it ?

Hmmm ?




You, being a person who is always willing to offer us your 'informed' opinion        [....about ISLAM, the Koran, and moslems].

:)

Yadda wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 6:02pm:

And augcaesarustus, what people believe,      always informs and 'guides' their conduct.

Not necessarily, Yadda. A person may believe that a person should be killed for leaving the faith, but they may never do it themselves.

There is a distinction between thought and action. People who suffer from Obsessive Compulsive Disorder often having recurring violent thoughts, but they in most cases don't want to do it.


Yadda wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 6:02pm:

But Allah forgives moslems

God forgives though who 'do righteous deeds' which didn't include killing people. They came along only later in the Islamic tradition.


Yadda wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 6:05pm:

........what should we do about it ?

Here's what we should do: the State governments should work with the Muslim community to protect vulnerable persons and offer them safe haven if they decide to leave the religion.

What sort of woman enslaves herself after all that been done foe women's rights?? The answer- an attention seeker.

cods wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 3:48pm:

theres a thread on here about using DUCT TAPE   its all about wearing....I dont see you complaining about that brian???....you just seem hooked on anyone daring to mention wearing a head scarf ..

Unlike you, Cod, I don't bother reading every post on this webboard.  They are too boring and repetitious for me.  Too full of hatred and bigotry in the main.    ::)


Quote:

now we have the full body bathing suit..hair cover included.....no kidding even in front of other women..  ::) ::).. it is normal to be covered head to toe....I worry about people who have the mental attitude towards the body....it seems almost as if !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.. well best I not say.

Why not?  Is someone standing by your elbow, preventing you from typing?

Perhaps their problem is they believe what their religion states about modesty?

I seem to remember a hundred years ago, women covered themselves in the West, from head to foot when they swam at the beach.   Funny how you appear to have forgotten that.   People being comfortable nude is a relatively recent development socially, Cods.   Why are you surprised that some, like Muslims, aren't up with the latest social developments?   Tsk, tsk.    ::)

Mr Hammer wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 6:46pm:

What sort of woman enslaves herself after all that been done foe women's rights?? The answer- an attention seeker.

Perhaps he knows what to do with his HUGE dick? ;D

Neferti wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 7:20pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 6:46pm: What sort of woman enslaves herself after all that been done foe women's rights?? The answer- an attention seeker. Perhaps he knows what to do with his HUGE dick? ;D

Paki's have pindicks.

Auggie wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 5:54pm:

So what should we do about it, Yadda?

Eliminate pockets of separatist law, aka sharia.

Australian law might not punish a Muslim woman for wearing or not wearing a hijab but her unassimilated Muslim family and community will. below the radar of the law.

And if she wears it willingly, she is of the cohort who will punish the unwilling in her family and community.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 4:07pm:

It still tickles me how hysterical some people get over successful, confident, intelligent, hijab-clad muslim women. I guess they present a big threat to some people.

Do you disagree with anything in the article Gandalf?

Brian Ross wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 11:01pm:

Frank wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 10:57pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 10:39pm: Who cares what she's wearing?  Er... Muslims care what she's wearing. A mufti did: THE nation's most senior Muslim cleric has blamed immodestly dressed women who don't wear Islamic headdress for being preyed on by men and likened them to abandoned "meat" that attracts voracious animals. You must take Muslims - everyone - at their word. A Mufti who was deposed because he was too embarrassing to the majority of Muslims.  Tsk, tsk, Soren.  Amazing you appear to have forgotten that...    ::) ::)

He was embarrassing because he was Islamically impeccable.

And he was not deposed, thick, ignorant B. He was reappointed by his learned Muslim peers.




You are a very interesting combination of confidence and utter ignorance and stupidity. Most stupid people have a sense of their inadequacy. Not you. You treat your own ignorance and stupidity as if they were learning and profound insights. It would require a heroic analyst to take you on. You soon freak out most people just by communicating with them on a board like this. I would only want to know you in real life as a therapist if I was in search of a challenge. The multiplicity of your delusions and the ease with which you move between them is worthy of several research projects: you seem to be most confident about your most glaring inadequacies. Not unusual by any means, a fairly typical coping mechanism.

Frank wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 7:30pm:

Auggie wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 5:54pm: So what should we do about it, Yadda? Eliminate pockets of separatist law, aka sharia. Australian law might not punish a Muslim woman for wearing or not wearing a hijab but her unassimilated Muslim family and community will. below the radar of the law. And if she wears it willingly, she is of the cohort who will punish the unwilling in her family and community.

Spoken from experience, Soren?

I've know Muslims women who do not wear a Hijab or any other headscarf.  They have never been punished by their family.   Perhaps there is more choice than you acknowledge in the matter?  Tsk, tsk.    ::)

Frank wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 9:19pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 11:01pm: Frank wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 10:57pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 10:39pm: Who cares what she's wearing?  Er... Muslims care what she's wearing. A mufti did: THE nation's most senior Muslim cleric has blamed immodestly dressed women who don't wear Islamic headdress for being preyed on by men and likened them to abandoned "meat" that attracts voracious animals. You must take Muslims - everyone - at their word. A Mufti who was deposed because he was too embarrassing to the majority of Muslims.  Tsk, tsk, Soren.  Amazing you appear to have forgotten that...    ::) ::) He was embarrassing because he was Islamically impeccable. And he was not deposed, thick, ignorant B. He was reappointed by his learned Muslim peers.

Amazing what happens for the public, hey, Soren?  Next you'll be telling his disposal wasn't all arranged for the media?   ::)


Quote:

You are a very interesting combination of confidence and utter ignorance and stupidity. Most stupid people have a sense of their inadequacy. Not you. You treat your own ignorance and stupidity as if they were learning and profound insights. It would require a heroic analyst to take you on. You soon freak out most people just by communicating with them on a board like this. I would only want to know you in real life as a therapist if I was in search of a challenge. The multiplicity of your delusions and the ease with which you move between them is worthy of several research projects.

Soren, if anybody is in need of a therapist, it's yourself.   Your bigotry, you intolerance, your Xenophobia and Islamophobia are quite obvious to even a casual reader of your posts.  Tsk, tsk.  Seek help, please, you need it to become normal.    ::) ::)

Brian Ross wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 6:47pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 4:07pm: It still tickles me how hysterical some people get over successful, confident, intelligent, hijab-clad muslim women. I guess they present a big threat to some people. Indeed, indeed, G.   It appears some people fear the idea of someone being successful, for some reason...   ::) ::)

Tickles me to think people who claim to be intelligent spout such a load on nonsense... :D :D :D

I could take Carland even a little seriously if she didnt wear that giant tea cosy on her head. Its cultural appropriation, its not religious attire. Like these white boys who wear dreadlocks.

Grendel wrote on May 17^th, 2017 at 2:06pm:

Then she must explain why women are seen as unclean and chattels and why they must walk behind, and why they need permission even as adults and must be chaperoned in public, and in some cases wear tents. Why is it men can divorce women simply etc, etc, etc.... why can men have multiple wives.... This'll be good...

rhino wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 9:50pm:

I could take Carland even a little seriously if she didnt wear that giant tea cosy on her head. Its cultural appropriation, its not religious attire. Like these white boys who wear dreadlocks.

Where would you take her, Rhino?

Karnal wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 9:53pm:

rhino wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 9:50pm: I could take Carland even a little seriously if she didnt wear that giant tea cosy on her head. Its cultural appropriation, its not religious attire. Like these white boys who wear dreadlocks. Where would you take her, Rhino?

I wouldnt be caught dead with her.  ;) What an embarrassment, mind you the beta male she hangs round with seems to like her. I bet she does the pegging.

rhino wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 9:50pm:

I could take Carland even a little seriously if she didnt wear that giant tea cosy on her head. Its cultural appropriation, its not religious attire. Like these white boys who wear dreadlocks.

Just so.


Susan Carland, you are a cultural appropriator!!!!  So is your husband  - what is he doing in a suit, the costume of the English middle class.

Insanity = 'progressive' identity politics. Nothing is too stupid for these people.

rhino wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 9:55pm:

Karnal wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 9:53pm: rhino wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 9:50pm: I could take Carland even a little seriously if she didnt wear that giant tea cosy on her head. Its cultural appropriation, its not religious attire. Like these white boys who wear dreadlocks. Where would you take her, Rhino? I wouldnt be caught dead with her.

Deeper holes, Rhino, that's the ticket.

Don't get lazy.

Frank wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 9:57pm:

rhino wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 9:50pm: I could take Carland even a little seriously if she didnt wear that giant tea cosy on her head. Its cultural appropriation, its not religious attire. Like these white boys who wear dreadlocks. Just so. Susan Carland, you are a cultural appropriator!!!!  So is your husband  - what is he doing in a suit, the costume of the English middle class. Insanity = 'progressive' identity politics. Nothing is too stupid for these people.

She's more Australian than Sore End, Frank. He likes Danish.

No one has the right to not be offended, no?

Karnal wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 10:26pm:

rhino wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 9:55pm: Karnal wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 9:53pm: rhino wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 9:50pm: I could take Carland even a little seriously if she didnt wear that giant tea cosy on her head. Its cultural appropriation, its not religious attire. Like these white boys who wear dreadlocks. Where would you take her, Rhino? I wouldnt be caught dead with her.  Deeper holes, Rhino, that's the ticket. Don't get lazy.

The only one digging a hole here is you. And its getting deeper.

---

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 9:24pm:

Frank wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 7:30pm: Auggie wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 5:54pm: So what should we do about it, Yadda? Eliminate pockets of separatist law, aka sharia. Australian law might not punish a Muslim woman for wearing or not wearing a hijab but her unassimilated Muslim family and community will. below the radar of the law. And if she wears it willingly, she is of the cohort who will punish the unwilling in her family and community. Spoken from experience, Soren? I've know Muslims women who do not wear a Hijab or any other headscarf.  They have never been punished by their family.   Perhaps there is more choice than you acknowledge in the matter?  Tsk, tsk.    ::)

So bwian are they a minority or a majority of the Ummah?
Are you saying those who cover up are the ones we should be wary of?  Not the ones you personally know....  I'm betting bwian you personally know very very few.
I knew a security guard bwian who was Muslim who used the equipment in the work office to send threats to various embassies in Canberra right after 911...  I'd have never suspected he held such views bwian.  So how do we tell which makes are radical fundamentalist jihadis bwian?

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 9:24pm:

Frank wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 7:30pm: Auggie wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 5:54pm: So what should we do about it, Yadda? Eliminate pockets of separatist law, aka sharia. Australian law might not punish a Muslim woman for wearing or not wearing a hijab but her unassimilated Muslim family and community will. below the radar of the law. And if she wears it willingly, she is of the cohort who will punish the unwilling in her family and community. Spoken from experience, Soren? I've know Muslims women who do not wear a Hijab or any other headscarf.  They have never been punished by their family.   Perhaps there is more choice than you acknowledge in the matter?  Tsk, tsk.    ::)

Are they the "vast majority" you keep referring to, but can never identify?

freediver wrote on May 19^th, 2017 at 8:48pm:

Are they the "vast majority" you keep referring to, but can never identify?

Here's a counter-proposition: Australians are bogans. Do you agree?

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 9:24pm:

Frank wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 7:30pm: Auggie wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 5:54pm: So what should we do about it, Yadda? Eliminate pockets of separatist law, aka sharia. Australian law might not punish a Muslim woman for wearing or not wearing a hijab but her unassimilated Muslim family and community will. below the radar of the law. And if she wears it willingly, she is of the cohort who will punish the unwilling in her family and community. Spoken from experience, Soren? I've know Muslims women who do not wear a Hijab or any other headscarf.  They have never been punished by their family.   Perhaps there is more choice than you acknowledge in the matter?  Tsk, tsk.    ::)

Yes, yes, yes, we know you are Dr Dim and have a very short attention span.  But do try to respond to what I actually post, rather than parrot your sh!te, regardless.

Frank wrote on May 19^th, 2017 at 9:07pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 9:24pm: Frank wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 7:30pm: Auggie wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 5:54pm: So what should we do about it, Yadda? Eliminate pockets of separatist law, aka sharia. Australian law might not punish a Muslim woman for wearing or not wearing a hijab but her unassimilated Muslim family and community will. below the radar of the law. And if she wears it willingly, she is of the cohort who will punish the unwilling in her family and community. Spoken from experience, Soren? I've know Muslims women who do not wear a Hijab or any other headscarf.  They have never been punished by their family.   Perhaps there is more choice than you acknowledge in the matter?  Tsk, tsk.    ::) Yes, yes, yes, we know you are Dr Dim and have a very short attention span.  But do try to respond to what I actually post, rather than parrot your sh!te, regardless.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/128170/2467911-yawn_20smiley.jpg

Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Tsk, tsk, Soren, can't you realise that your ad hominem arguments indicate you've lost the debate?   ::) ::)

rhino wrote on May 18^th, 2017 at 9:50pm:

I could take Carland even a little seriously if she didnt wear that giant tea cosy on her head. Its cultural appropriation, its not religious attire. Like these white boys who wear dreadlocks.

;D

With that headdress she's trying to have it both ways : When is a hijab not a hijab : when it's a hat.

And then as an academic she should know that the very best scholars of Islam have repeatedly stated that hijabs are not essential head-gear for Muslim women wear, and that it's purely a secular affectation so far as the Koran is concerned.

The bottom line is this: no one can prove definitely that a woman who claims to wear the hijab freely is doing so 'because she has internalized her own subjugation' or that 'she has been brainwashed'; no more than I can claim that a person who makes such claims has internalized his or her own prejudices toward minorities and Muslims, and has been likewise brainwashed.

If a person suffers repercussions (death or violence) because they fail to conform to the cultural and/or religious expectations of their local community, family or friends, then this, in my view, is domestic violence; and should be regarded and dealt with as such. It's doesn't matter if the person is killed or beaten because 'she pissed me off' or because 'she refused to wear the hijab' - the principal is still the same: the person is being physically harmed by her family, community and/or friends.

Waleed Aly's wife is a good girl, I cant see my woman wearing anything I tell her to wear.

Auggie wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 3:43pm:

The bottom line is this: no one can prove definitely that a woman who claims to wear the hijab freely is doing so 'because she has internalized her own subjugation' or that 'she has been brainwashed'; no more than I can claim that a person who makes such claims has internalized his or her own prejudices toward minorities and Muslims, and has been likewise brainwashed. If a person suffers repercussions (death or violence) because they fail to conform to the cultural and/or religious expectations of their local community, family or friends, then this, in my view, is domestic violence;         and should be regarded and dealt with as such. It's doesn't matter if the person is killed or beaten because 'she pissed me off' or because 'she refused to wear the hijab' - the principal is still the same: the person is being physically harmed by her family, community and/or friends.

When moslems commit acts of violence against family members or their 'friends',
AND,
when the moslems committing such violence justify that violence with religious/'cultural' motives, then we should call that, 'domestic violence' ? !!!!!!!!!

You are mad !

You are insane !


My solution;

If a religion, which is being practised here in Australia,        justifies such community violence [justifies this violence from its own religious mores and its own religious tenets] then we need to proscribe [ban] that religion in Australia, imo !



.




Yadda wrote on May 11^th, 2017 at 3:52pm:

ISLAMIC law makes the murder of wives and children, 'lawful', under certain circumstances, e.g. apostasy ['rebellion' against ISLAM's authority i.e. 'rebellion' against the husband or the fathers authority ]. ISLAMIC law texts, specifically give moslem men, the right to kill their children [and grandchildren].     [cited, in the "British girl kidnapped by Saudi father" article above] And the murder of moslem women and children within moslem families often goes unreported - even, sometimes, within Western nations. Because such 'events' [within families] are not even 'crimes' within ISLAMIC law, and imams often teach that infidels should have no authority in such matters.

.



Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1293669294/0#0

Quote:

A simple definition of SANITY/INSANITY. Typically, an unrestrained sane person will act in ways which are harmless to others, and in ways which are creative, and productive [for himself, others, and society]. And typically, and conversely, an unrestrained INSANE person will act in ways which are harmful and destructive to himself, and, or, others around him.

Auggie wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 3:43pm:

The bottom line is this: no one can prove definitely that a woman who claims to wear the hijab freely is doing so 'because she has internalized her own subjugation' or that 'she has been brainwashed'; no more than I can claim that a person who makes such claims has internalized his or her own prejudices toward minorities and Muslims, and has been likewise brainwashed. If a person suffers repercussions (death or violence) because they fail to conform to the cultural and/or religious expectations of their local community, family or friends, then this, in my view, is domestic violence; and should be regarded and dealt with as such. It's doesn't matter if the person is killed or beaten because 'she pissed me off' or because 'she refused to wear the hijab' - the principal is still the same: the person is being physically harmed by her family, community and/or friends.

So how do we safeguard Australian Muslim women from all the various ways they might be coerced to into wearing something other than what they freely choose, given the hypersensitivity of the Muslim community to interference and "wishy washy western liberal morals"?

Johnnie wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 3:59pm:

Waleed Aly's wife is a good girl, I cant see my woman wearing anything I tell her to wear.

She's a looker, that's for sure, but it doesn't excuse her from trying to preach utter nonsense about the Koran being a patron of women's rights and female emancipation.

She should be taken to task for this on one of the no-nonsense-no-PC interview shows - preferably the Andrew Bolt Show or the forthcoming Mark Latham Show.

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 5:43pm:

So how do we safeguard Australian Muslim women from all the various ways they might be coerced to into wearing something other than what they freely choose, given the hypersensitivity of the Muslim community to interference and "wishy washy western liberal morals"?

The same way we deal with domestic violence matters in general - via helplines and support services.

Auggie wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 10:57pm:

freediver wrote on May 20th, 2017 at 5:43pm: So how do we safeguard Australian Muslim women from all the various ways they might be coerced to into wearing something other than what they freely choose, given the hypersensitivity of the Muslim community to interference and "wishy washy western liberal morals"? The same way we deal with domestic violence matters in general - via helplines and support services.

They have support among the general community. Most Australians consider wife beating inherently wrong, let alone forcing your wife to wear a tent in 40 degree heat. What do you do with groups who actually support those things, at least collectively? How effective do you think it will be if they start to see "support services" as the enemy?

Quote:

They have support among the general community. Most Australians consider wife beating inherently wrong, let alone forcing your wife to wear a tent in 40 degree heat. What do you do with groups who actually support those things, at least collectively? How effective do you think it will be if they start to see "support services" as the enemy?

There's no perfect solution. There would need to be a different approach taken than conventionally; but I'm sure it can be done. There would be many women in those communities who would reach out to support services that ensured anonymity.

This is a difficult issue. I'm not saying it's easy, but the answer also doesn't lie in restricting immigration.

As I've said before in another post, the Muslim world is going through a crisis point in its civilization, as all civilizations do; and unfortunately this involves much bloodshed. The difference now is that due to globalization it has an impact on the world as a whole and this imposes new challenges. I don't have the answers, but we shouldn't demonize people, since this will only make things worse in the long run. 

Johnnie wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 3:59pm:

Waleed Aly's wife is a good girl, I cant see my woman wearing anything I tell her to wear.

She's loving the head-gear as a fashion statement to enhance her considerable beauty.

Lord Herbert wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 7:39am:

Johnnie wrote on May 20th, 2017 at 3:59pm: Waleed Aly's wife is a good girl, I cant see my woman wearing anything I tell her to wear. She's loving the head-gear as a fashion statement to enhance her considerable beauty.

it would have to be so hot  I couldnt stand it..

to be honest I am not even sure what it represents.... ::)

when you look at the way they dress in down town Saudi Arabia the men dress far more flamboyant than the females the men really stand out....the womenfolk look drab.

Auggie wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 11:15pm:

Quote: They have support among the general community. Most Australians consider wife beating inherently wrong, let alone forcing your wife to wear a tent in 40 degree heat. What do you do with groups who actually support those things, at least collectively? How effective do you think it will be if they start to see "support services" as the enemy? There's no perfect solution. There would need to be a different approach taken than conventionally; but I'm sure it can be done. There would be many women in those communities who would reach out to support services that ensured anonymity. This is a difficult issue. I'm not saying it's easy, but the answer also doesn't lie in restricting immigration. As I've said before in another post, the Muslim world is going through a crisis point in its civilization, as all civilizations do; and unfortunately this involves much bloodshed. The difference now is that due to globalization it has an impact on the world as a whole and this imposes new challenges. I don't have the answers, but we shouldn't demonize people, since this will only make things worse in the long run.

The Muslim world has been bathed in blood for 1400 years. It will still be there in another 1400 years, doing the same thing.

Where does the answer lie?

cods wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 7:50am:

Lord Herbert wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 7:39am: Johnnie wrote on May 20th, 2017 at 3:59pm: Waleed Aly's wife is a good girl, I cant see my woman wearing anything I tell her to wear. She's loving the head-gear as a fashion statement to enhance her considerable beauty. it would have to be so hot  I couldnt stand it.. to be honest I am not even sure what it represents.... ::) when you look at the way they dress in down town Saudi Arabia the men dress far more flamboyant than the females the men really stand out....the womenfolk look drab.

Those nightgowns the men wear look very comfortable and practical in that desert climate, but it's the one-size-fits-all cloning of their appearance that I find is a bit regimented and makes them look like human members of an insect colony like bees and ants.

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 7:53am:

The Muslim world has been bathed in blood for 1400 years. It will still be there in another 1400 years, doing the same thing. Where does the answer lie?

Containment and the de-Islamisation of the West.

Let the Middle East remain a Human zoo for these people, with meanwhile refusing any further immigration from them into the West, and creating financial incentives to rid them of Western societies.

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 7:53am:

Auggie wrote on May 20th, 2017 at 11:15pm: Quote: They have support among the general community. Most Australians consider wife beating inherently wrong, let alone forcing your wife to wear a tent in 40 degree heat. What do you do with groups who actually support those things, at least collectively? How effective do you think it will be if they start to see "support services" as the enemy? There's no perfect solution. There would need to be a different approach taken than conventionally; but I'm sure it can be done. There would be many women in those communities who would reach out to support services that ensured anonymity. This is a difficult issue. I'm not saying it's easy, but the answer also doesn't lie in restricting immigration. As I've said before in another post, the Muslim world is going through a crisis point in its civilization, as all civilizations do; and unfortunately this involves much bloodshed. The difference now is that due to globalization it has an impact on the world as a whole and this imposes new challenges. I don't have the answers, but we shouldn't demonize people, since this will only make things worse in the long run.  The Muslim world has been bathed in blood for 1400 years. It will still be there in another 1400 years, doing the same thing. Where does the answer lie?

I would think at the rate they are going Islam will have taken over the world in 1400 yrs from now..

blood or no blood  its is after all their aim....

or with a bit of luck there will be no religion at all.

Lord Herbert wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 8:46am:

cods wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 7:50am: Lord Herbert wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 7:39am: Johnnie wrote on May 20th, 2017 at 3:59pm: Waleed Aly's wife is a good girl, I cant see my woman wearing anything I tell her to wear. She's loving the head-gear as a fashion statement to enhance her considerable beauty. it would have to be so hot  I couldnt stand it.. to be honest I am not even sure what it represents.... ::) when you look at the way they dress in down town Saudi Arabia the men dress far more flamboyant than the females the men really stand out....the womenfolk look drab. Those nightgowns the men wear look very comfortable and practical in that desert climate, but it's the one-size-fits-all cloning of their appearance that I find is a bit regimented and makes them look like human members of an insect colony like bees and ants.

flowing white which deflects heat for the men  and drab black that draws the heat for the females..

will they ever wake up to that I wonder?..

its funny because we dont see the Arab men walking down Oxford St in flowing white .. yet we do see women in drab black from time to time....

there seems to be such a double standard there..

cods wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 9:16am:

flowing white which deflects heat for the men  and drab black that draws the heat for the females.. will they ever wake up to that I wonder?.. its funny because we dont see the Arab men walking down Oxford St in flowing white .. yet we do see women in drab black from time to time.... there seems to be such a double standard there..

I saw a very tall African in full Islamic outfit the other day at Bunnings. All the bells-and-whistles from head to toe, and I suspect he was quietly enjoying shoving this departure from the Western norm in our secular faces.

I think the worst part of the letterbox outfit would be the interruption to breathing. On a hot sweaty day it would be like waterboarding. It probably stops them putting on weight.

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 10:04am:

I think the worst part of the letterbox outfit would be the interruption to breathing. On a hot sweaty day it would be like waterboarding. It probably stops them putting on weight.

I've never seen a 'tented' Muslim woman who didn't look grossly over-weight beneath that clobber.

Auggie wrote on May 19^th, 2017 at 8:54pm:

freediver wrote on May 19th, 2017 at 8:48pm: Are they the "vast majority" you keep referring to, but can never identify? Here's a counter-proposition: Australians are bogans. Do you agree?

Muslims are bogans too...  so what is your point?

Apparently hijabs are not a religious necessity....  so why does she wear it then.  Why does she seek to wear clothes that identify her as Muslim or some foreign nationality?

I remember a few Muslim women admitting they wear such clothing not for religious purposes but to make a statement that they are different, they are Muslim...  well I guess then they wouldn't get gang raped accidentally then eh...

Lord Herbert wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 9:38am:

he was quietly enjoying shoving this departure from the Western norm in our secular faces.

How do you know that was his thinking? Why couldn't have been just that he wanted to wear it? Why do immigrants always have to have sinister intentions?

Quote:

Here's a counter-proposition: Australians are bogans. Do you agree?

Muslims are bogans too...  so what is your point?[/quote]

No, they aren't. They don't drink.

Grendel wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 10:40am:

Apparently hijabs are not a religious necessity....

They usually are.
Grendel wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 10:40am:

I remember a few Muslim women admitting they wear such clothing not for religious purposes but to make a statement that they are different, they are Muslim

So, if a person of Italian origin wears a shirt with the Tricolore in order to make a statement that he/she is of different origin to the typical 'Aussie', is this acceptable?

Quote:

I've never seen a 'tented' Muslim woman who didn't look grossly over-weight beneath that clobber.

I've never met an Australian who wasn't a wife-beater.

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 7:53am:

The Muslim world has been bathed in blood for 1400 years. It will still be there in another 1400 years, doing the same thing.

The amount of blood they've shed pales in comparison to the amount we've shed in the West. The Muslim world has never had two industrial World Wars within the space of 40 years.


freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 7:53am:

Where does the answer lie?

Honestly? I think that the West should sign a treaty with ISIS stipulating the following condition: the West will stay out of their business; they can have all the territory from Morocco to the Pakistan for themselves as their Caliphate; we'll withdraw embassies and consulates from those nations. We won't involve ourselves in their affairs as long as they don't involve themselves in ours, and send terrorists after us. They can set up their caliphate within those borders and govern themselves how they want with no interference.

I think that the radical ideology will evolve from 'the caliphate all over the world' to the 'caliphate in the middle east', much like how socialist developed from socialism in the world to 'socialism in one-country'.

Quote:

No, they aren't. They don't drink.

Gandalf likes to point out that Islamic wife beating is better than western wife beating because they are sober and respectful when they do it.


Quote:

The amount of blood they've shed pales in comparison to the amount we've shed in the West.

Everything Muslims do pales in comparison. Their incompetence is their only redeeming feature.


Quote:

Honestly? I think that the West should sign a treaty with ISIS stipulating the following condition: the West will stay out of their business; they can have all the territory from Morocco to the Pakistan for themselves as their Caliphate; we'll withdraw embassies and consulates from those nations. We won't involve ourselves in their affairs as long as they don't involve themselves in ours, and send terrorists after us. They can set up their caliphate within those borders and govern themselves how they want with no interference.

Ah, we should facilitate ISIS now, in the idiotic hope they will be happy with whatever we tell them they can have? We have spent about 1000 years forcing them out of Europe, containing them, breaking their slaves raids of Europe and Africa, and finally almost ending the slave trade in the middle east. It is almost done. But not, at the last minute, you want to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and wind all that progress back.

And this massive escalation in sex slavery is your solution to helping women?

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 2:00pm:

Gandalf likes to point out that Islamic wife beating is better than western wife beating because they are sober and respectful when they do it.

I disagree then. It doesn't matter. All wife-beating is unacceptable, full stop. As far as I'm concerned, I of one mind to got through the Quran with the correction tape and edit out all the verses I don't like.

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 2:00pm:

Everything Muslims do pales in comparison. Their incompetence is their only redeeming feature.

Incompetence has nothing to do with it; it only comes down to civilization.


freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 2:00pm:

Ah, we should facilitate ISIS now, in the idiotic hope they will be happy with whatever we tell them they can have?

Actually, you're right, that would probably be worse, because it would give them an opportunity to develop their military power.


freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 2:00pm:

But not, at the last minute, you want to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and wind all that progress back.

So, what do we do then? Do you want to see all migration from Muslim-majority countries?

Wife beating is okay if you first buy them flowers and chocolates.

And 'beating' is not really the correct word. 'Bitch-slapping' your wife is a better description. You can slap her around the prayer room in the house, making sure she doesn't fall against the little lectern that holds the family copy of the Koran.

If Mothra married a Muslim she would be perfectly happy to be loved by him in this way. It shows he cares. She'd feel honoured to be bitch-slapped around the home until she came to her senses and agreed with his point of view.

Quote:

Incompetence has nothing to do with it; it only comes down to civilization.

They do civilisation on a smaller scale too.


Quote:

Actually, you're right, that would probably be worse, because it would give them an opportunity to develop their military power.

And capture millions of sex slaves along the way. You think that would be bad too, right?

Susan Carland always makes sure to be obedient to her husband Waleed Aly. As a good Muslim wife she knows that any persistent baulking at his authority just might see her being bitch-slapped around the house ~ being careful not to upset the lectern holding the Koran in the prayer room, of course.

While he's the head of the household, Muslim-style, she knows her place in the marriage is to be his dutiful subordinate, and that daughter Aisha occupies a subservient and inferior status within the Islamic religion than does her son Zayd.

Lord Herbert wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 3:46pm:

Wife beating is okay if you first buy them flowers and chocolates. And 'beating' is not really the correct word. 'Bitch-slapping' your wife is a better description. You can slap her around the prayer room in the house, making sure she doesn't fall against the little lectern that holds the family copy of the Koran. If Mothra married a Muslim she would be perfectly happy to be loved by him in this way. It shows he cares. She'd feel honoured to be bitch-slapped around the home until she came to her senses and agreed with his point of view.

I just don't  think that's the case.

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 5:19pm:

Quote: Incompetence has nothing to do with it; it only comes down to civilization. They do civilisation on a smaller scale too. [quote]Actually, you're right, that would probably be worse, because it would give them an opportunity to develop their military power.

And capture millions of sex slaves along the way. You think that would be bad too, right?[/quote]

Yes of course, it would be bad. And any of the other stuff they pull.

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 2:00pm:

Gandalf likes to point out that Islamic wife beating is better than western wife beating because they are sober and respectful when they do it.

Absolute crap FD.

Quote me or retract this.

Lord Herbert wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 6:26pm:

Susan Carland always makes sure to be obedient to her husband Waleed Aly. As a good Muslim wife she knows that any persistent baulking at his authority just might see her being bitch-slapped around the house ~ being careful not to upset the lectern holding the Koran in the prayer room, of course. While he's the head of the household, Muslim-style, she knows her place in the marriage is to be his dutiful subordinate, and that daughter Aisha occupies a subservient and inferior status within the Islamic religion than does her son Zayd.

Mmm. I don't think Waleed is that devout as a Muslim.

Auggie wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 6:37pm:

freediver wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 5:19pm: Quote: Incompetence has nothing to do with it; it only comes down to civilization. They do civilisation on a smaller scale too. [quote]Actually, you're right, that would probably be worse, because it would give them an opportunity to develop their military power. And capture millions of sex slaves along the way. You think that would be bad too, right?

Yes of course, it would be bad. And any of the other stuff they pull. [/quote]

Now you sound like a neocon.

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 6:40pm:

Auggie wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 6:37pm: freediver wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 5:19pm: Quote: Incompetence has nothing to do with it; it only comes down to civilization. They do civilisation on a smaller scale too. [quote]Actually, you're right, that would probably be worse, because it would give them an opportunity to develop their military power. And capture millions of sex slaves along the way. You think that would be bad too, right? Yes of course, it would be bad. And any of the other stuff they pull.

Now you sound like a neocon.[/quote]

No, I sound like a liberal. I never claimed that Isis wasn't evil, I just claimed that one cannot say that Islam as a religion is evil. They're two separate things.

Neither do I support a Muslim ban. But I will defend liberal principles.

Auggie wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 6:36pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 3:46pm: Wife beating is okay if you first buy them flowers and chocolates. And 'beating' is not really the correct word. 'Bitch-slapping' your wife is a better description. You can slap her around the prayer room in the house, making sure she doesn't fall against the little lectern that holds the family copy of the Koran. If Mothra married a Muslim she would be perfectly happy to be loved by him in this way. It shows he cares. She'd feel honoured to be bitch-slapped around the home until she came to her senses and agreed with his point of view. I just don't  think that's the case.

Muslim spokesman Keysar Trad was honest enough to faithfully represent the Koran on this matter of husbands being sanctioned by Islam to slap their wives if they should persist in defying their husband's wishes.

Of more interest to me is none other than Tony Abbott making a complete ass of himself on the Andrew Bolt Show by firstly condemning Keysar Trad for having been honest, and then contradicting himself by waffling on about Islam needing an apologist version that abrogates the current version so that all the bad stuff in the sacred writings of Islam can be re-jigged to come up smelling roses.

I'll be perfectly honest and admit that before watching this interview with Abbott I never suspected he was so full of shìt, and so capable of voicing such bare-faced nonsense. Apparently he now sees himself as a champion and defender of Islam. How many reincarnations does this devious has-been have in his kit-bag?

Here's Trad telling it like it is ... and then we see Abbott shooting the messenger (Trad) because he didn't lie to Andrew Bolt about the Koran saying it's perfectly okay to slap your wife around under the rules of Islam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhZUK7Ux-6Q

Abbott soiling himself

Auggie wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 6:43pm:

freediver wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 6:40pm: Auggie wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 6:37pm: freediver wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 5:19pm: Quote: Incompetence has nothing to do with it; it only comes down to civilization. They do civilisation on a smaller scale too. [quote]Actually, you're right, that would probably be worse, because it would give them an opportunity to develop their military power. And capture millions of sex slaves along the way. You think that would be bad too, right? Yes of course, it would be bad. And any of the other stuff they pull. Now you sound like a neocon.

No, I sound like a liberal. I never claimed that Isis wasn't evil, I just claimed that one cannot say that Islam as a religion is evil. They're two separate things.

Neither do I support a Muslim ban. But I will defend liberal principles. [/quote]

By killing people in the middle east?

Auggie wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 6:38pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 6:26pm: Susan Carland always makes sure to be obedient to her husband Waleed Aly. As a good Muslim wife she knows that any persistent baulking at his authority just might see her being bitch-slapped around the house ~ being careful not to upset the lectern holding the Koran in the prayer room, of course. While he's the head of the household, Muslim-style, she knows her place in the marriage is to be his dutiful subordinate, and that daughter Aisha occupies a subservient and inferior status within the Islamic religion than does her son Zayd. Mmm. I don't think Waleed is that devout as a Muslim.

Are you saying that to a serious degree he's an apostate for not supporting certain parts of the Koran even though these parts are the direct Word of Islam's god? 

Has he ever said whether he is a Muslim?

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 9:20pm:

Has he ever said whether he is a Muslim?

Maybe it's just a dirty rumour?  8-)

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 9:20pm:

Has he ever said whether he is a Muslim?

He's got the subhuman gene. We'll have to give him a genetic IQ test to find out for sure, FD.

Karnal wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 9:40pm:

freediver wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 9:20pm: Has he ever said whether he is a Muslim? He's got the subhuman gene. We'll have to give him a genetic IQ test to find out for sure, FD.

He certainly  looks like the product of a cousin marriage and is not very intelligent.

rhino wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 9:46pm:

Karnal wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 9:40pm: freediver wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 9:20pm: Has he ever said whether he is a Muslim? He's got the subhuman gene. We'll have to give him a genetic IQ test to find out for sure, FD. He certainly  looks like the product of a cousin marriage and is not very intelligent.

Academics never are, Rhino.

I'd say he's a Muslim, wouldn't you?

is karnel a Muslim...he has a very bizarre interest in them 

I am sure he is...

and we know he isnt an academic dont we?. so he qualifies..

Auggie wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 1:18pm:

Quote: Here's a counter-proposition: Australians are bogans. Do you agree? Muslims are bogans too...  so what is your point?

No, they aren't. They don't drink.
[/quote]
You don't have to drink to be a bogan, you don't have to drink to be Australian either.


Quote:

bogan1 ˈbəʊɡ(ə)n/ nounAustralian/NZinformalderogatory noun: bogan; plural noun: bogans     an uncouth or unsophisticated person regarded as being of low social status.     "some bogans yelled at us from their cars"

Auggie wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 1:19pm:

Grendel wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 10:40am: Apparently hijabs are not a religious necessity.... They usually are. Grendel wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 10:40am: I remember a few Muslim women admitting they wear such clothing not for religious purposes but to make a statement that they are different, they are Muslim So, if a person of Italian origin wears a shirt with the Tricolore in order to make a statement that he/she is of different origin to the typical 'Aussie', is this acceptable?

Don't notice many Australians roaming around day to day wearing Italian colours....  BTW Italians are fairly contemporary and Western in their dress...  I'm betting the Italian men would not allow their women to wear Tents.

I find it unpatriotic that Italian Australians who have never lived in Italy barrack for the Italian Soccer Team when they play against Australia though. :D :D :D

8-)
Auggie wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 1:20pm:

Quote: I've never seen a 'tented' Muslim woman who didn't look grossly over-weight beneath that clobber. I've never met an Australian who wasn't a wife-beater.

Rubbish, where do you live in an aboriginal outback remote community?

I have to admit most women I've seen in tents tend to be bigger women... 

Lord Herbert wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 8:53pm:

Auggie wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 6:36pm: Lord Herbert wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 3:46pm: Wife beating is okay if you first buy them flowers and chocolates. And 'beating' is not really the correct word. 'Bitch-slapping' your wife is a better description. You can slap her around the prayer room in the house, making sure she doesn't fall against the little lectern that holds the family copy of the Koran. If Mothra married a Muslim she would be perfectly happy to be loved by him in this way. It shows he cares. She'd feel honoured to be bitch-slapped around the home until she came to her senses and agreed with his point of view. I just don't  think that's the case. Muslim spokesman Keysar Trad was honest enough to faithfully represent the Koran on this matter of husbands being sanctioned by Islam to slap their wives if they should persist in defying their husband's wishes. Of more interest to me is none other than Tony Abbott making a complete ass of himself on the Andrew Bolt Show by firstly condemning Keysar Trad for having been honest, and then contradicting himself by waffling on about Islam needing an apologist version that abrogates the current version so that all the bad stuff in the sacred writings of Islam can be re-jigged to come up smelling roses. I'll be perfectly honest and admit that before watching this interview with Abbott I never suspected he was so full of shìt, and so capable of voicing such bare-faced nonsense. Apparently he now sees himself as a champion and defender of Islam. How many reincarnations does this devious has-been have in his kit-bag? Here's Trad telling it like it is ... and then we see Abbott shooting the messenger (Trad) because he didn't lie to Andrew Bolt about the Koran saying it's perfectly okay to slap your wife around under the rules of Islam. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhZUK7Ux-6Q Abbott soiling himself

What does any of this have to do with the fact that Mothra would accept an abusive relationship?

Quote:

By killing people in the middle east?

What do you mean? Are you asking if I support the various military campaigns by the West in the Middle East? If so, the answer is that I don't support them. I'm a non-interventionist.

Quote:

Are you saying that to a serious degree he's an apostate for not supporting certain parts of the Koran even though these parts are the direct Word of Islam's god?

No, I'm saying that he doesn't follow the Quran word for word. He may be devout spirituality but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't believe that the Quran is the eternal word of God.

Quote:

Rubbish, where do you live in an aboriginal outback remote community?

So, not all Muslims are terrorists then? Are you basing your perception of Muslims based on isolated communities of Muslims who live in Australia?

Quote:

bogan1 ˈbəʊɡ(ə)n/ nounAustralian/NZinformalderogatory noun: bogan; plural noun: bogans     an uncouth or unsophisticated person regarded as being of low social status.     "some bogans yelled at us from their cars"

[/quote]

You know many of these people can speak two or three different languages. Do you consider that to be unsophisticated?

cods wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 8:53am:

freediver wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 7:53am: Auggie wrote on May 20th, 2017 at 11:15pm: Quote: They have support among the general community. Most Australians consider wife beating inherently wrong, let alone forcing your wife to wear a tent in 40 degree heat. What do you do with groups who actually support those things, at least collectively? How effective do you think it will be if they start to see "support services" as the enemy? There's no perfect solution. There would need to be a different approach taken than conventionally; but I'm sure it can be done. There would be many women in those communities who would reach out to support services that ensured anonymity. This is a difficult issue. I'm not saying it's easy, but the answer also doesn't lie in restricting immigration. As I've said before in another post, the Muslim world is going through a crisis point in its civilization, as all civilizations do; and unfortunately this involves much bloodshed. The difference now is that due to globalization it has an impact on the world as a whole and this imposes new challenges. I don't have the answers, but we shouldn't demonize people, since this will only make things worse in the long run.  The Muslim world has been bathed in blood for 1400 years. It will still be there in another 1400 years, doing the same thing. Where does the answer lie? I would think at the rate they are going Islam will have taken over the world in 1400 yrs from now.. blood or no blood  its is after all their aim.... or with a bit of luck there will be no religion at all.

cods,

So long as men are able to dream [when they are asleep], men will always embrace 'something' which will be referred to as 'religion'.

I have wonderful dreams.

Auggie wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 4:59pm:

Quote: Rubbish, where do you live in an aboriginal outback remote community? So, not all Muslims are terrorists then? No....  they are not.  have you ever seen me claim they are? Are you basing your perception of Muslims based on isolated communities of Muslims who live in Australia? I base my views on education, current affairs and first hand knowledge....  YOU? So you dodged most of what I said...  goodo... ::) ::) ::)

Auggie wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 3:34pm:

freediver wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 2:00pm: Gandalf likes to point out that Islamic wife beating is better than western wife beating because they are sober and respectful when they do it. I disagree then. It doesn't matter. All wife-beating is unacceptable, full stop. As far as I'm concerned, I [have a] mind to got through the Quran with the correction tape and edit out all the verses I don't like.

LOL

So naive!             ;D



AugCaesarustus,

'Reform' of ISLAM isn't that simple.


AugCaesarustus,

If a devout moslem saw you come withing 3 meters of ANY Holy Koran, with a correction tape in your hand,             that would be the end of AugCaesarustus !!         :'(          ;D




'Reform' of ISLAM is absolutely, absolutely, absolutely impossible.

Why so ?

Because      99.99999%       of all devout moslems, consider ['their' version of] ISLAM to be Allah's already perfected religion.

I will say it again for you;

To the moslem, ISLAM, is Allah's already perfected religion.




QUESTION;
How can devout moslems be expected to allow the reform of their religion [ISLAM], when the overwhelming majority of devout moslems firmly believe that ISLAM is Allah's already perfected religion ?

The idea, is completely absurd.

Aug, are you saying we should let people we know to be terrorists, people we know to be terrorist sympathisers, people we know to be ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy, to migrate here in massive and uncontrolled numbers? How do you think this will help?


Auggie wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 11:15pm:

Quote: They have support among the general community. Most Australians consider wife beating inherently wrong, let alone forcing your wife to wear a tent in 40 degree heat. What do you do with groups who actually support those things, at least collectively? How effective do you think it will be if they start to see "support services" as the enemy? There's no perfect solution. There would need to be a different approach taken than conventionally; but I'm sure it can be done. There would be many women in those communities who would reach out to support services that ensured anonymity. This is a difficult issue. I'm not saying it's easy, but the answer also doesn't lie in restricting immigration. As I've said before in another post, the Muslim world is going through a crisis point in its civilization, as all civilizations do; and unfortunately this involves much bloodshed. The difference now is that due to globalization it has an impact on the world as a whole and this imposes new challenges. I don't have the answers, but we shouldn't demonize people, since this will only make things worse in the long run.

Auggie wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 1:26pm:

freediver wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 7:53am: The Muslim world has been bathed in blood for 1400 years. It will still be there in another 1400 years, doing the same thing. The amount of blood they've shed pales in comparison to the amount we've shed in the West. The Muslim world has never had two industrial World Wars within the space of 40 years. freediver wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 7:53am: Where does the answer lie? Honestly? I think that the West should sign a treaty with ISIS stipulating the following condition: the West will stay out of their business; they can have all the territory from Morocco to the Pakistan for themselves as their Caliphate; we'll withdraw embassies and consulates from those nations. We won't involve ourselves in their affairs as long as they don't involve themselves in ours, and send terrorists after us. They can set up their caliphate within those borders and govern themselves how they want with no interference. I think that the radical ideology will evolve from 'the caliphate all over the world' to the 'caliphate in the middle east', much like how socialist developed from socialism in the world to 'socialism in one-country'.

Auggie wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 3:40pm:

freediver wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 2:00pm: Everything Muslims do pales in comparison. Their incompetence is their only redeeming feature. Incompetence has nothing to do with it; it only comes down to civilization. freediver wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 2:00pm: Ah, we should facilitate ISIS now, in the idiotic hope they will be happy with whatever we tell them they can have? Actually, you're right, that would probably be worse, because it would give them an opportunity to develop their military power. freediver wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 2:00pm: But not, at the last minute, you want to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and wind all that progress back. So, what do we do then? Do you want to see all migration from Muslim-majority countries?

Auggie wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 4:54pm:

freediver wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 9:08pm: Auggie wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 6:43pm: freediver wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 6:40pm: Auggie wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 6:37pm: freediver wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 5:19pm: Quote: Incompetence has nothing to do with it; it only comes down to civilization. They do civilisation on a smaller scale too. [quote]Actually, you're right, that would probably be worse, because it would give them an opportunity to develop their military power. And capture millions of sex slaves along the way. You think that would be bad too, right? Yes of course, it would be bad. And any of the other stuff they pull. Now you sound like a neocon. No, I sound like a liberal. I never claimed that Isis wasn't evil, I just claimed that one cannot say that Islam as a religion is evil. They're two separate things. Neither do I support a Muslim ban. But I will defend liberal principles. By killing people in the middle east?

What do you mean? Are you asking if I support the various military campaigns by the West in the Middle East? If so, the answer is that I don't support them. I'm a non-interventionist.
[/quote]

So you are against intervening, as well as being against allowing ISIS to expand?

Lord Herbert wrote on May 21^st, 2017 at 9:18pm:

Auggie wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 6:38pm: Lord Herbert wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 6:26pm: Susan Carland always makes sure to be obedient to her husband Waleed Aly. As a good Muslim wife she knows that any persistent baulking at his authority just might see her being bitch-slapped around the house ~ being careful not to upset the lectern holding the Koran in the prayer room, of course. While he's the head of the household, Muslim-style, she knows her place in the marriage is to be his dutiful subordinate, and that daughter Aisha occupies a subservient and inferior status within the Islamic religion than does her son Zayd. Mmm. I don't think Waleed is that devout as a Muslim. Are you saying that to a serious degree he's an apostate for not supporting certain parts of the Koran even though these parts are the direct Word of Islam's god?

Herbert,

'Anyone who does not follow ISLAM, as i follow ISLAM, is an apostate.'

'Off with his head!!!!!'

;D




OK.

'But what version of ISLAM ?',      you ask.


Herbert,

Every devout moslem, will tell you that only       >> he [and his group] <<      are following Mohammed's version of ISLAM, the 'correct' version of ISLAM.

And one reason, i would suggest, why there are so many violent schism's present within ISLAMIC, is that; 1/ ISLAM sanctions violence against 'believers' who stray from accepted orthodoxy, AND, 2/ every moslem group has its own uncompromising belief, about the correct way in which Allah is to be obeyed and worshipped.

But ISLAM's authoritative foundation texts are there to give clarity and guidance to the moslem though.     !!!!!




.




ISLAMIC LAW TEXT....
"Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) "
fiqhussunnah/fus1_06


ISLAMIC LAW TEXT....
"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."



.




Mainstream ISLAMIC doctrine declares that unbelief [i.e. atheism] is a capital crime.     !!!!!!!


Google;
islam, unbelief is worse than killing




.



THE HADITH....

"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." - DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

Grendel wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 6:11pm:

Auggie wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 4:59pm: Quote: Rubbish, where do you live in an aboriginal outback remote community? So, not all Muslims are terrorists then? No....  they are not.  have you ever seen me claim they are? Are you basing your perception of Muslims based on isolated communities of Muslims who live in Australia? I base my views on education, current affairs and first hand knowledge....  YOU? So you dodged most of what I said...  goodo... ::) ::) ::)

No, I don't. I was trying to make a point.

Yadda wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 6:42pm:

'Reform' of ISLAM isn't that simple.

It's not simple, but it's straightforward.


Yadda wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 6:42pm:

'Reform' of ISLAM is absolutely, absolutely, absolutely impossible.

No idea is beyond reform. And if you believe that, then you are doing the moderates a grave disservice. You're propagating the same beliefs that ISIS are: that Islam is practised in its true form. ISIS is winning the battle of ideas because Western such as Yadda actually agrees with ISIS' interpretation of religion and of Islam.


Yadda wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 6:42pm:

To the moslem, ISLAM, is Allah's already perfected religion.

All that Islam means is submission to God - that's it. It isn't submission to the Prophet.


Yadda wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 6:42pm:

How can devout moslems be expected to allow the reform of their religion [ISLAM], when the overwhelming majority of devout moslems firmly believe that ISLAM is Allah's already perfected religion ?

Because they've been brainwashed, Yadda by people who want to manipulate them and exert power over them. Think! The sooner people realize that religion is 90% power and control, the sooner they can set about reforming it. We learnt our lesson in Christianity: the reformation overcame the Catholic church's power. Muslims need to do the same thing.

Quote:

So you are against intervening, as well as being against allowing ISIS to expand?

So long as they don't expand into the West.

Yadda wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 7:15pm:

Every devout moslem, will tell you that only       >> he [and his group] <<      are following Mohammed's version of ISLAM, the 'correct' version of ISLAM.

Then are wrong, Yadda. Islam was never about 'Muhammad's version of Islam', it's about God's version of Islam.
Yadda wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 7:15pm:

ISLAMIC LAW TEXT.... "Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) " fiqhussunnah/fus1_06 ISLAMIC LAW TEXT.... "Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...." fiqhussunnah/#3.110 n.b. "Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled." . Mainstream ISLAMIC doctrine declares that unbelief [i.e. atheism] is a capital crime.     !!!!!!! Google; islam, unbelief is worse than killing . THE HADITH.... "...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." -

And you believe that these words are the 'Word of God'? You interpret the Quran and religion in the same way that the extremists do.

Auggie wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 7:53pm:

Grendel wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 6:11pm: Auggie wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 4:59pm: Quote: Rubbish, where do you live in an aboriginal outback remote community? So, not all Muslims are terrorists then? No....  they are not.  have you ever seen me claim they are? Are you basing your perception of Muslims based on isolated communities of Muslims who live in Australia? I base my views on education, current affairs and first hand knowledge....  YOU? So you dodged most of what I said...  goodo... ::) ::) ::) No, I don't. I was trying to make a point.

Being?
The lie that I think all Muslims are terrorists...
Oh dear, total FAIL...

Grendel wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 8:14pm:

Being? The lie that I think all Muslims are terrorists... Oh dear, total FAIL...

No, the idea that we should exclude an entire swath of people from participation in our society based on our 'perceived' prejudices about the cultural group; because that's essentially what you and all those anti-Muslims are advocating - that we either ban completely or severely restrict immigration from Muslim-majority countries; and/or expel Muslims who are already here.

Am I correct?

You are taking the opposite extreme - that we should not restrict immigration at all.

freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 7:11pm:

Aug, are you saying we should let people we know to be terrorists, people we know to be terrorist sympathisers, people we know to be ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy, to migrate here in massive and uncontrolled numbers? How do you think this will help?

The question, to answer your question, is ultimately: you want to police thought, and punish people for thought-crimes, which ultimately leads to totalitarianism?

freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 8:28pm:

You are taking the opposite extreme - that we should not restrict immigration at all. Auggie wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 8:00pm: Quote: So you are against intervening, as well as being against allowing ISIS to expand? So long as they don't expand into the West. You just finished agreeing this was a really bad idea.

No, I agreed that they may not abide by any treaty to that purpose, I did not agree that containing Daesh to their historical borders was a bad idea.

Auggie wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 8:26pm:

Grendel wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 8:14pm: Being? The lie that I think all Muslims are terrorists... Oh dear, total FAIL... No, the idea that we should exclude an entire swath of people from participation in our society based on our 'perceived' prejudices about the cultural group; because that's essentially what you and all those anti-Muslims are advocating - that we either ban completely or severely restrict immigration from Muslim-majority countries; and/or expel Muslims who are already here. Am I correct?

No.
The topic is about Waleed's wife.
I merely corrected your incorrect assumptions.

As for the solution to protecting Australians from Muslims jihadists...  we are discussing this in another topic... happy to hear your solution.  You do have one right? ::) ::)

Quote:

As for the solution to protecting Australians from Muslims jihadists...  happy to hear your solution.  You do have one right? ::) ::)

The solution is to abide by our principals of liberty and tolerance, and individualism - to not succumb to tribalism, hate and extremism.

The fact is that the current strategy of supposedly 'burying our heads in the sand' (including world leaders) has actually mitigated any recriminations by Muslims - it would've been a hell of lot worse if we adopted the tactics that you, FD and others are espousing.

Auggie wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 8:38pm:

Quote: As for the solution to protecting Australians from Muslims jihadists...  happy to hear your solution.  You do have one right? ::) ::) The solution is to abide by our principals of liberty and tolerance, and individualism - to not succumb to tribalism, hate and extremism. The fact is that the current strategy of supposedly 'burying our heads in the sand' (including world leaders) has actually mitigated any recriminations by Muslims - it would've been a hell of lot worse if we adopted the tactics that you, FD and others are espousing.

Well Gandalf actually agreed that the one solution I put forward would work.
YOU however have no solution and are burying your head in the sand... goodo... ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Grendel wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 8:42pm:

YOU however have no solution and are burying your head in the sand.

I proposed a solution; you just don't happen to agree with it...

What is your solution?

Well I haven't seen your suggestion, just your vaguely progressive comment, which is no solution. :D

Feel free to post it here...   ::)

Grendel wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 10:11pm:

Well I haven't seen your suggestion, just your vaguely progressive comment, which is no solution. :D Feel free to post it here...   ::)

It's simple, Soren.... All you have to do is look around you and look at this wonderful in which we live, and you'll find the answer there. We inherited the posterity of British liberty and democracy, and that, Soren, is the solution.

Auggie wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 7:58pm:

Yadda wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 6:42pm: 'Reform' of ISLAM is absolutely, absolutely, absolutely impossible. No idea is beyond reform. And if you believe that, then you are doing the moderates a grave disservice.

'Moderate moslems'.

LOL



AugCaesarustus,

The 'moderate moslem' is a mythical creature - 'it'/he does not exist.

Why so ?

ARGUMENT;
There are no 'moderate' moslems.

Because there is no moderate ISLAM !

Duh!




AugCaesarustus,

Lets pursue this notion a little further......

What is a MOSLEM ?

A moslem is a follower of ISLAM.       < -------- dictionary definition.




AugCaesarustus,

You refer to the 'moderate moslem'.


AugCaesarustus,

QUESTIONS;
1/ Does the Allah of the moderate moslem, tell him to accept non-moslems as friends ?

Where ?

"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them."
Koran 3.28


"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51


"O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends (or protectors),- offering them (your) love,..."
Koran 60.1





2/ Does the Messenger of Allah of the moderate moslem, tell the moderate moslem NOT to kill apostates ?

Where ?

THE HADITH....

"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." - DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260






Does the Koran of the moderate moslem, tell the moderate moslem NOT to fight against disbelievers ?

Where ?

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29




AugCaesarustus,

QUESTION;
I am intrigued.

Please do tell us, where does the 'moderate moslem' derive his 'moderate' religious precepts from ?

And what      are     these religious precepts, which the 'moderate moslem' has embraced ?

Tell us about them.




.





Auggie wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 7:58pm:

You're propagating the same beliefs that ISIS are: that Islam is practised in its true form. ISIS is winning the battle of ideas because Western such as Yadda actually agrees with ISIS' interpretation of religion and of Islam.

LOL

augcaesarustus,

No.

I am simply expounding upon what ISLAM itself, mainstream ISLAM, teaches.


Evidence ???

-------- >


Quote:

Creed of the sword Mark Durie September 23, 2006 .....the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh, issued a statement on the official Saudi news service, defending Muslims' divine right to resort to violence: "The spread of Islam has gone through several phases, secret and then public, in Mecca and Medina. God then authorised the faithful to defend themselves and to fight against those fighting them, which amounts to a right legitimised by God. This ... is quite reasonable, and God will not hate it." Saudi Arabia's most senior cleric also explained that war was never Islam's ancient founder, the prophet Mohammed's, first choice: "He gave three options: either accept Islam, or surrender and pay tax, and they will be allowed to remain in their land, observing their religion under the protection of Muslims." Thus, according to the Grand Mufti, the third option of violence against non-Muslims was only a last resort, if they refused to convert or surrender peacefully to the armies of Islam. .......At the beginning, in Mohammed's Meccan period, when he was weaker and his followers few, passages of the Koran encouraged peaceful relations and avoidance of conflict: "Invite (all) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious." (16:125) Later, after persecution and emigration to Medina in the first year of the Islamic calendar, authority was given to engage in warfare for defensive purposes only: "Fight in the path of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for God does not love transgressors." (2:190) As the Muslim community grew stronger and conflict with its neighbours did not abate, further revelations expanded the licence for waging war, until in Sura 9, regarded as one of the last chapters to be revealed, it is concluded that war against non-Muslims could be waged more or less at any time and in any place to extend the dominance of Islam.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20460114-601,00.html

Auggie wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 7:58pm:

Yadda wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 6:42pm: How can devout moslems be expected to allow the reform of their religion [ISLAM], when the overwhelming majority of devout moslems firmly believe that ISLAM is Allah's already perfected religion ? Because they've been brainwashed, Yadda by people who want to manipulate them and exert power over them.

LOL

Really ?

augcaesarustus, will you tell those moslems, that they have been corrupted and brainwashed by ISLAM,        or shall i ?




Yadda said.....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1356039845/35#35

Quote:

The truth is that ISLAM is an evil philosophy, which, imo, creates a mental pathology [a 'sickness'] in the psyche of those human beings who choose to embrace it.

And ISLAM is spread by moslems.


Moslems bring ISLAM with them, wherever they go in the world.



augcaesarustus,

Remove them.

Moslems.

Every single one, that self declares; "I'm a moslem."





Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1252898491/0#0

Quote:

CRIMINAL INTENT IN THE MOSLEM HEART Dictionary, malice aforethought = = Law the intention to kill or harm, held to distinguish unlawful killing from murder.

I would argue, that the criminal intent of the moslem [who lives among us], can be demonstrated and reasonably proven.


QUESTION;
But what use is 'the law', if those who administer 'the law' [as stewards and 'caretakers' of the law], are unwilling to bring due sanctions against wrongdoers ?



.




Yadda said....

Quote:

[quote] "...people won't get killed,   ....unjustly."

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qgLQhvPdIWc/hqdefault.jpg

- Abu Usamah - a moslem teacher, in the UK



The above, was transcribed from the YT cited below.

Those words [of Abu Usamah], cited above, could have been written last week, by the same moslems who were the 'principals' and the participants, of the latest attacks against - INFIDELS - in Paris



This moslem teacher, Abu Usamah, in the UK, is certain that a moslem political violence [Jihad] is coming against the unbelievers of Europe.

And once the moslems have taken over the government of the UK/Europe, the moslem teacher Abu Usamah, assures his audience [i.e. the moslems], that everything will be fine, because;

"...people won't get killed,   ....unjustly."

Well that's a relief!

But in his statement the moslem teacher seems to imply that some people WILL, "get killed"!

But which people ?




Which 'people' could this moslem teacher be talking about ???



------- >

Seek out, and watch the Channel 4 [UK] Undercover Mosque documentary on YT

Google;
dispatches undercover mosque, channel 4, -Return



goto 00 min 52 sec


Quote:

"A Despatches investigation has uncovered a 'fundamentalist message' spreading from the Saudi Arabian religious establishment, through [UK] mosques run by major UK organisations which claim to be dedicated to moderation and to dialogue with other faiths."

goto 02 min 52 sec


Quote:

"....he preaches against non-moslem law." "We want our ISLAM and its laws to be practised. We want to do away with the man-made-laws." - [Abu Usamah - a moslem teacher, in the UK]

goto 03 min 35 sec


Quote:

"....he says moslems should obey British law and contracts, ......[with the qualification] IF THEY DO NOT CONTRADICT ISLAM [i.e. ISLAMIC laws]. But he condemns non-believers." "No-one loves the kuffar. No-one loves the kuffar!! Not a single person here from the moslems loves the kuffar. .....We love the people of ISLAM. And we hate the people of the kuffar." -  [Abu Usamah - a moslem teacher, in the UK]

[/quote]

Yadda wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 1:08am:

will you tell those moslems, that they have been corrupted and brainwashed by ISLAM,        or shall i ?

Telling them won't work; they need to work it out by themselves, as we did during the Reformation.


Yadda wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 1:08am:

The truth is that ISLAM is an evil philosophy, which, imo, creates a mental pathology [a 'sickness'] in the psyche of those human beings who choose to embrace it.

So then, to what extent is the believer to blame for his/her beliefs? Can we blame solely the ideology itself without taking into consideration that people swallow these beliefs and accept them?


Yadda wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 1:08am:

Remove them.

Sounds like the Final Solution to me.


Yadda wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 1:08am:

CRIMINAL INTENT IN THE MOSLEM HEART

So, you want to criminalize people for holding beliefs? Punish people for thought-crimes?


Yadda wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 12:50am:

The 'moderate moslem' is a mythical creature - 'it'/he does not exist.

Waleed Aly is an example of a moderate Muslim. Do you deny this? What about Ed Husic, the Bosnian MP who swore his oath on the Quran; do you believe he is not moderate? What about Maajid Nawaz - the head of the Quilliam Foundation and its members? Aren't they moderate Muslims? What about those Muslims who genuinely condemn terrorism and don't support it.

There are many moderate Muslims who don't interpret the Quran in the way you think they should.


Yadda wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 12:50am:

What is a MOSLEM ? A moslem is a follower of ISLAM.

As you know, Islam means 'submission' to God - a Muslim is a person who submits to God. That's it.


Yadda wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 12:50am:

"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them." Koran 3.28

If you read this verse through uneducated eyes and take it at face value, then yes it seems as though God is stating that Muslims shouldn't be friends with Christians and Jews.

If you understand the entire Quran, then it is clear that verses such as these are referring to a situation in which the Christians and Jews have committed injustice against Muslims. Therefore, the injustice is 'bad behaviour', and because of the context at the time, God states that people should stay away from 'bad behaviour' so that they're not influenced by those people - just as any parent would discourage a child from associating themselves with a bad person.

This verse and other like it DOES NOT REFER TO THE PEOPLE WHO DO 'GOOD DEEDS' OR WHO ARE APATHETIC ABOUT RELIGION. This is context of such verses. Don't forget that at the time, belief and action were thought to the be one and the same - if you believed something then you would do it; but in a modern world we recognize that people have beliefs upon which they do not act.


Yadda wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 1:08am:

the criminal intent of the moslem [who lives among us]

The criminal intent is not solely motivated by scripture. I've read the Quran and researched it. Why haven't I reached the same conclusions as these other 'Muslims'? Even if I converted to Islam (if I married someone who is Muslim) I would not adopt those 'views' of the religion. Why? Because I'm not a psychopath or sociopath - that is the connecting factor between thought and belief.


Yadda wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 12:50am:

"O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends (or protectors),- offering them (your) love,..." Koran 60.1

Again, same interpretation - it refers to 'not being influenced by people who are propagating bad ideas or acting out bad behaviours.' This is abundantly clear if read the Quran in entirety.


Yadda wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 12:50am:

THE HADITH.... "...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." - DEAD. hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

I don't bother about the Hadith - it's fundamentally against the principal of Islam, which is notion that the 'recitation' i.e. Quran is the Word of God. The Hadith is not the word of God; ergo, it should've never been included in the canon of scripture.


Yadda wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 12:50am:

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. " Koran 9.29

So, with a verse such as this (and even with the foregoing ones), you have to ask yourself the question: 'why would God dictate such a verse?' Why would God command a person to harm another person for exercising his or her rationality?


Yadda wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 12:50am:

Please do tell us, where does the 'moderate moslem' derive his 'moderate' religious precepts from ?

He/she derives from his/her ability to think rationally.

Auggie wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 11:21pm:

Grendel wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 10:11pm: Well I haven't seen your suggestion, just your vaguely progressive comment, which is no solution. :D Feel free to post it here...   ::) It's simple, Soren.... All you have to do is look around you and look at this wonderful in which we live, and you'll find the answer there. We inherited the posterity of British liberty and democracy, and that, Soren, is the solution.

Well I'm not Soren, but I am right about you.
You are starting to sound an awful lot like bwian, and we all know he has a great many socks. :D :D :D

Once more I ask you for a real solution... ::)

LOL....
picked this little bit from the last post from Aggie re Yadda.

Islam=Submission...  one must submit one must be subdued...

Now if God gave us free will then why would he wish us to be subdued?

Yadda wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 1:08am:

Remove them.

Karnal wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 3:50pm:

Yadda wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 1:08am: Remove them.

Can't express stuff in your own words eh karnal?
Here try this... allowed to return to a society which holds the same beliefs.

Quote:

Now if God gave us free will then why would he wish us to be subdued?

God doesn't require us to submit to Him. We can choose to do so. He simply says that submitting to Him would result in a better life.

Quote:

Once more I ask you for a real solution... ::)

I've given it.

Auggie wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 5:06pm:

Quote: Now if God gave us free will then why would he wish us to be subdued? God doesn't require us to submit to Him. We can choose to do so. He simply says that submitting to Him would result in a better life.

Nope, that is not what is believed by Muslims.

Grendel wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 5:12pm:

Auggie wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 5:06pm: Quote: Now if God gave us free will then why would he wish us to be subdued? God doesn't require us to submit to Him. We can choose to do so. He simply says that submitting to Him would result in a better life. Nope, that is not what is believed by Muslims.

That is believed by SOME Muslims, not ALL of them.

Auggie wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 5:07pm:

Quote: Once more I ask you for a real solution... ::) I've given it.

Oh dear stop being dumb as bwian you said I don't agree with it...  you lied...  how can I disagree with something I have no knowledge of...  now I have asked several times for you to post it "bwian" so how about it...  put up or shut up. :D

Grendel wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 5:19pm:

Auggie wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 5:07pm: Quote: Once more I ask you for a real solution... ::) I've given it. Oh dear stop being dumb as bwian you said I don't agree with it...  you lied...  how can I disagree with something I have no knowledge of...  now I have asked several times for you to post it "bwian" so how about it...  put up or shut up. :D

Soren, tsk tsk... I have give you my answer: fostering and maintaining our values of tolerance, liberty and rule of law.... Tsk tsk, if you do not understand these things, then you do not understand Liberty.

Oh that rot....  so how will that work again against people who want a globe full of submissives? :D

These people will take advantage of your tolerance, your Liberty, spit on democracy, change your laws and shove it all where the Sun don't shine, then throw you off the top of a building.

Grendel wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 6:25pm:

Oh that rot....  so how will that work again against people who want a globe full of submissives? :D These people will take advantage of your tolerance, your Liberty, spit on democracy and rule of law and shove it all where the Sun don't shine, then throw you off the top of a building.

Yes, and how long do you think a society like that will last? I'd give it 2 years before it collapses.

Auggie wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 6:31pm:

Grendel wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 6:25pm: Oh that rot....  so how will that work again against people who want a globe full of submissives? :D These people will take advantage of your tolerance, your Liberty, spit on democracy and rule of law and shove it all where the Sun don't shine, then throw you off the top of a building. Yes, and how long do you think a society like that will last? I'd give it 2 years before it collapses.

Really....  history isn't on your side. :D :D :D

Grendel wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 6:32pm:

Auggie wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 6:31pm: Grendel wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 6:25pm: Oh that rot....  so how will that work again against people who want a globe full of submissives? :D These people will take advantage of your tolerance, your Liberty, spit on democracy and rule of law and shove it all where the Sun don't shine, then throw you off the top of a building. Yes, and how long do you think a society like that will last? I'd give it 2 years before it collapses. Really....  history isn't on your side. :D :D :D

History has never experienced such an interconnected world, with social media and the exchange of ideas. Any historical example is irrelevant.

Try again....

Auggie wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 6:35pm:

Grendel wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 6:32pm: Auggie wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 6:31pm: Grendel wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 6:25pm: Oh that rot....  so how will that work again against people who want a globe full of submissives? :D These people will take advantage of your tolerance, your Liberty, spit on democracy and rule of law and shove it all where the Sun don't shine, then throw you off the top of a building. Yes, and how long do you think a society like that will last? I'd give it 2 years before it collapses. Really....  history isn't on your side. :D :D :D History has never experienced such an interconnected world, with social media and the exchange of ideas. Any historical example is irrelevant. Try again....

Sorry, but that is not a refutation that works...  do try again. :D :D :D