High Court asked to rule on paedophile Aaron Holliday's kidnapping incitement conviction

The ACT's Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) has asked the High Court to find a convicted paedophile broke the law when he urged another man to organise a kidnapping.

Key points:

Aaron Holliday arranged for trial witnesses to be kidnapped
Defence argues he did not break law, as kidnapping never took place
Holliday remains behind bars for child sex offences
Canberra man Aaron James Holliday, 31, is serving an eight-year sentence for sex offences against three boys.

While he was waiting for his trial Holliday asked another prisoner to find someone on the outside to kidnap two key witnesses and force them to retract their evidence.

He typed an eight-page document which included instructions about recording the retractions and where to find the intended victims.

But the kidnapping never happened after the other prisoner went straight to authorities.

Holliday was later found guilty of trying to pervert the course of justice and inciting another to organise the kidnapping of the two witnesses.

He was sentenced to a further 30 months in jail.

But the ACT Court of Appeal threw out the incitement offence, because the actual kidnapping had not happened.

ACT Director of Public Prosecutions Jon White told the High Court sitting in Sydney today it was within the law to prosecute a person for inciting another to commit an offence.

Mr White said that still applied even when the offence was never committed, and that the urging of another to commit an offence was sufficient.

But Holliday's lawyer Stephen Odgers labelled the notion "absurd".

"The offence of incitement is not made out until ... the offence is completed," he said.
However Chief Justice Susan Kiefel and Justice Virginia Bell both questioned the line of argument, the latter suggesting it was "odd".

Holliday told victims he worked with police

Holliday has been in jail since 2009, and remains there beyond his non-parole period.

Holliday told victims he was working with police in an operation to catch paedophiles, called "paedobait", and wanted to train them to help in the task.

In explaining his behaviour, he has cited abuse he claims to have suffered at boarding school from a very young age.

A pre-sentence report quoted Holliday saying of his victims "I've pretty much ruined their lives".

He said he used the story about the "paedobait" operation to "break the ice".

The report author described the tactic as disturbing.

"The storyline worked to deceive and manipulate the victims," the report said.

A 2014 parole report found Holliday had engaged in programs in jail and was motivated to change, but his application was refused.

The court reserved its decision after today's hearing.

If the case is lost, Holliday could be free in December, but if it succeeds he will spend at least another year in jail.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-15/high-court-aaron-holliday-paedophile-appeal/8620192?smid=Page:%20ABC%20News-Facebook_Organic&WT.tsrc=Facebook_Organic&sf88780648=1

Out in December? Grrrrreat.

He should have converted to islam.

its normal practice to marry children

Sick twisted CULT it is

Valkie, is there any reason you don't ever complain about the Christian girls in the US that are forced to marry their rapists?

I'm assuming it's just ignorance?

mothra wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 1:05am:

Valkie, is there any reason you don't ever complain about the Christian girls in the US that are forced to marry their rapists? I'm assuming it's just ignorance?

Is that like shotgun wedding, statutory rape? I must admit, if it's not, I've never heard of it.

Setanta wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 1:17am:

mothra wrote on Jun 16th, 2017 at 1:05am: Valkie, is there any reason you don't ever complain about the Christian girls in the US that are forced to marry their rapists? I'm assuming it's just ignorance? Is that like shotgun wedding, statutory rape? I must admit, if it's not, I've never heard of it.

Religious nutters.

The good folk of this forum think there's only one kind of them.

But girls as young as 12 are married off the land of the free and the home of the brave.

mothra wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 1:19am:

Setanta wrote on Jun 16th, 2017 at 1:17am: mothra wrote on Jun 16th, 2017 at 1:05am: Valkie, is there any reason you don't ever complain about the Christian girls in the US that are forced to marry their rapists? I'm assuming it's just ignorance? Is that like shotgun wedding, statutory rape? I must admit, if it's not, I've never heard of it. Religious nutters. The good folk of this forum think there's only one kind of them. But girls as young as 12 are married off the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Land of greed and home of depraved? ;D

You can fit it really well into their national anthem. I did it to a yank in my mid 20's. He wasn't impressed.

Post a link.

From sea to dying sea ... even.

Re the OP, how can it not be a crime? Conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime. If I ever hire a hit man to bump someone off, I want this guy's lawyer. How many have been locked up for conspiracy to commit murder for hiring someone to commit the crime for them, even though the murder never happened?

Setanta wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 1:34am:

Re the OP, how can it not be a crime? Conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime. If I ever hire a hit man to bump someone off, I want this guy's lawyer. How many have been locked up for conspiracy to commit murder for hiring someone to commit the crime for them, even though the murder never happened?

Absolutely buggered if i know.

We're talking about kidnapping children with intent to "persuade" them into changing their testimonies. In my humble opinion, it doesn't get much worse than that.

Perversion of justice should be in there too.

But no, possibly out in December. Brilliant.

mothra wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 1:40am:

Setanta wrote on Jun 16th, 2017 at 1:34am: Re the OP, how can it not be a crime? Conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime. If I ever hire a hit man to bump someone off, I want this guy's lawyer. How many have been locked up for conspiracy to commit murder for hiring someone to commit the crime for them, even though the murder never happened? Absolutely buggered if i know. We're talking about kidnapping children with intent to "persuade" them into changing their testimonies. In my humble opinion, it doesn't get much worse than that. Perversion of justice should be in there too. But no, possibly out in December. Brilliant.

I seriously doubt it. We have laws against conspiracy to commit crimes. That it will go to the high court is what is weird. How the lawyer pulled that one of I don't know.
https://www.judcom.nsw.gov.au/publications/benchbks/criminal/conspiracy.html

I guess he will argue that since the one he tried to hire did not agree and dobbed him in instead, there was no conspiracy to commit a crime. Seems the only way you could argue it as it needs two or more to conspire to commit a crime.

Setanta wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 1:44am:

mothra wrote on Jun 16th, 2017 at 1:40am: Setanta wrote on Jun 16th, 2017 at 1:34am: Re the OP, how can it not be a crime? Conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime. If I ever hire a hit man to bump someone off, I want this guy's lawyer. How many have been locked up for conspiracy to commit murder for hiring someone to commit the crime for them, even though the murder never happened? Absolutely buggered if i know. We're talking about kidnapping children with intent to "persuade" them into changing their testimonies. In my humble opinion, it doesn't get much worse than that. Perversion of justice should be in there too. But no, possibly out in December. Brilliant. I seriously doubt it. We have laws against conspiracy to commit crimes. That it will go to the high court is what is weird. How the lawyer pulled that one of I don't know. https://www.judcom.nsw.gov.au/publications/benchbks/criminal/conspiracy.html

So at best he gets another 30 months.

I remain ... uncomforted.

Carly's Law has just been passed. Pity it can't be applied retroactively.

mothra wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 1:51am:

Carly's Law has just been passed. Pity it can't be applied retroactively.

As much as I think people like this could do with a bit longer, I don't like emotion brought into the legal system.

Incitement to a crime is now not an offence, according to his defence team?  WTS???

Hang 'im and hang 'im high alongside his co-conspirators....

Setanta wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 1:55am:

mothra wrote on Jun 16th, 2017 at 1:51am: Carly's Law has just been passed. Pity it can't be applied retroactively. As much as I think people like this could do with a bit longer, I don't like emotion brought into the legal system.

No. Neither do i. It's one of my primary arguments against capital and corporal punishment ... and for the humane treatment of prisoners.

But if we are not focussing on rehabilitation (which we're not) then we have a duty of care to society to keep it as safe as possible.

30mths for conspiring to kidnap and "coerce" children who are already victims of sexual assault beggars belief. Add to that the charges being dismissed?

Well, you can see why people have lost faith in the legal system.

Simple.  Issue grand-parents with a .25 calibre semi-automatic and he would be an unfortunate victim of a home invasion gone wrong for which the police can find no solid leads....

I know a family from which two sons were sexually abused by a family friend for years while he was their soccer coach ... someone said they should not tell their mother in case etc .. I said they should tell here NOW because she'd kill the c*nt, and no jury would find her guilty.

mothra wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 1:51am:

Carly's Law has just been passed. Pity it can't be applied retroactively.

Shall we discuss this one?

Quote:

The change makes it a crime to plan to harm a child under 16 and in particular targets predators who misrepresent their age.

Setanta wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 1:44am:

mothra wrote on Jun 16th, 2017 at 1:40am: Setanta wrote on Jun 16th, 2017 at 1:34am: Re the OP, how can it not be a crime? Conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime. If I ever hire a hit man to bump someone off, I want this guy's lawyer. How many have been locked up for conspiracy to commit murder for hiring someone to commit the crime for them, even though the murder never happened? Absolutely buggered if i know. We're talking about kidnapping children with intent to "persuade" them into changing their testimonies. In my humble opinion, it doesn't get much worse than that. Perversion of justice should be in there too. But no, possibly out in December. Brilliant. I seriously doubt it. We have laws against conspiracy to commit crimes. That it will go to the high court is what is weird. How the lawyer pulled that one of I don't know. https://www.judcom.nsw.gov.au/publications/benchbks/criminal/conspiracy.html I guess he will argue that since the one he tried to hire did not agree and dobbed him in instead, there was no conspiracy to commit a crime. Seems the only way you could argue it as it needs two or more to conspire to commit a crime.

Fair points... so in order to prove 'conspiracy' you need to have two or more consenting parties.....

I say balls chancre...

Setanta wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 2:03am:

mothra wrote on Jun 16th, 2017 at 1:51am: Carly's Law has just been passed. Pity it can't be applied retroactively. Shall we discuss this one? Quote: The change makes it a crime to plan to harm a child under 16 and in particular targets predators who misrepresent their age.

I'll start a thread on it. We'll discuss it there.

Setanta wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 1:55am:

mothra wrote on Jun 16th, 2017 at 1:51am: Carly's Law has just been passed. Pity it can't be applied retroactively. As much as I think people like this could do with a bit longer, I don't like emotion brought into the legal system.

It will be if the legal system breaks down entirely and is replaced by vigilante justice.....