As technology created by a minority of clever people allows the lives of the majority to improve and combined with the learned class having fewer children and the rest breed beyond their ability to support them, are we as a total species going backwards?

Our society and support structures allow the weak and less intelligent to survive and to outbreed those that make it possible.

Will stupidity grow and be the end of us?

It's frightening.
The most stupid people have the most kids.
The average IQ of the people of this world must be going down fast.

Peace and prosperity within [successful] civilisations, also tend to bring with them, [envy and] widespread contempt for integrity.

Once integrity is lost, a civilisation will quickly fail.


.


Yadda said somewhere.....

Quote:

consider this logic circle... When TRUTH [free and open] is embraced by a people, it brings JUSTICE. JUSTICE brings PEACE. PEACE brings PROSPERITY. PROSPERITY brings GREED, ENVY and PRIDE [vanity] to the hearts of men. GREED, ENVY and PRIDE are the servants of EVIL [intent]. TRUTH is always the 'cornerstone' of the [transient] building, PROSPERITY. But, TRUTH is hated and despised by the EVIL heart. And, if the love of TRUTH in men is displaced, by their embrace of EVIL, then.... When EVIL abides in the hearts of men [empowered by its servants GREED, ENVY and PRIDE], ....JUSTICE and PEACE will be, destroyed by EVIL [intents]. ....[and the 'building'] PROSPERITY, will then quickly crumble into dust. WAR and CONFLICT and DESTRUCTION cannot be far off. POVERTY and WAR abide together, until they destroy PRIDE [in the heart of men]. When PRIDE is absent, TRUTH will then seek [but is not assured] a presence. If a love a TRUTH is again embraced [among men], EVIL [intent] will be banished from among them.

.


“We make men without chests and expect from them virtue and enterprise.
We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst.”
- The Abolition of Man, by C.S. Lewis


Gallups bemoaned how someone can be called a racist and a bigot simply for loving “common sense, logic, reason and this nation.”
- Carl Gallups


"It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
- J. Krishnamurti


"Knowledge is a destination. Truth, the journey."
- Terry Goodkind / Bits & Pieces


"Harmony makes small things grow, lack of it makes great things decay."
- Sallust / Bits & Pieces


"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth."
- Anonymous


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."
- Martin Luther King, Jr.


"Faith hears the inaudible, sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible."
- Bits & Pieces



Why It's Called Made In America

Principles to Live By - 1942
1.  You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
2.  You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong
3.  You cannot help the poor man by destroying the rich.
4.  You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
5.  You cannot build character and courage by taking away man's initiative and independence.
6.  You cannot help small men by tearing down big men.
7.  You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
8.  You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income.
9.  You cannot establish security on borrowed money.
10  You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they will not do for themselves.

William J. H. Boetcker, Presbyterian minister, 1942 Source: TruthOrFiction
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/l/lincoln-quotes.htm



"It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
- Professor Dumbledore - Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets


There is nothing that is wrong, that cannot be remedied, by doing what is right.
- ?


Our job is to live as well and as long as we can, and to help others do the same.
- ?


"Glory follows virtue as if it were its shadow."
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, Roman Statesman

Good Topic Super Nova.

In the Old days - people worked physically harder, but life was mentally simpler.

In the New days - people work physically easier (thanks to machines), but life is now mentally more complex

...hence the explosion in Mental Illness in the modern era.

I bet many upon Mental Health schedules wish they were having respite with Amish people.

Jasin wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2021 at 10:26pm:

Good Topic Super Nova. In the Old days - people worked physically harder, but life was mentally simpler. In the New days - people work physically easier (thanks to machines), but life is now mentally more complex ...hence the explosion in Mental Illness in the modern era. I bet many upon Mental Health schedules wish they were having respite with Amish people.

I am not so sure about that. In the past life was hard. Your chance of dying was high with death only a moment away. Even when we started civilization, most people lived hard lives, being bullied by their superiors or those with more muscle and power. I am sure this would have led to mental illness and passed off as them being weak.

I remember as a kid they called it a breakdown, now we call it a mental illness. A breakdown come with stigma.

Mental illness is not linked to us getting dumber. Stupid people don't know they need to be stressed about their future because they most times accept their lot and complain about those who have more than they do. Then just get on with their natural urges and produce babies without considering their chances for a better future.

The Hunter-Gatherer lifestyle was never 'hard'. As Yuval points out the H-G lifestyle was efficient, stable and sustainable.

Life was 'hard' for those of 'Civilisation' - where only a 'few' benefitted from its advantages, while the majority doesn't beyond having more children to slave away also to the cause.

The H-G lifestyle only changes with nature though and much slower in changes than Civilisation.

Look at it this way.
The 'Mascot' of the Old Worlds was the Physically stronger but mentally weaker 'Cave Man' - and the pursuit of knowledge was to rise above this.

...but in the New World's of Technological and Social complexity - the 'Mascot' is that weak-bodied, but big brained 'Alien'. To rise above this - Physical Health and staying aloof to all that complexity is the way to go.
You could say - Keep It Simple Stupid.
The majority of mental illness is due to 'too much' knowledge - as we are now seeing in a world where knowledge is out of control in many forms and mediums.

Be a Alien in the Old Worlds, but be a Cave Man in the New Worlds.

Civilisation is like the centre of the Galaxy where everyone goes down that Black Hole in togetherness (and over-crowding).
H-G lifestyle is like living at the edge of the Galaxy where one can dissapear out into the void.

I try to live my life like where our System is situated.
Not in an over-crowded city, but not woop-woop in isolation.
I would say, our System is not even in the suburbs.
But somewhere regional, where a decent size town exists out in the country/rural - but only a short drive to another town.

Super Nova wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2021 at 8:19pm:

Our society and support structures allow the weak and less intelligent to survive and to outbreed those that make it possible.

Partly true. Intelligence isn't completely inherited, it is also affected by environment.

It is true however that the human gene pool is being degraded. Thanks to modern medicine, people who would never have lived to be able to reproduce are now doing so.

I don't know what the answer to that is though.

The_Barnacle wrote on Mar 6^th, 2021 at 12:01pm:

Super Nova wrote on Mar 3rd, 2021 at 8:19pm: Our society and support structures allow the weak and less intelligent to survive and to outbreed those that make it possible. Partly true. Intelligence isn't completely inherited, it is also affected by environment. It is true however that the human gene pool is being degraded. Thanks to modern medicine, people who would never have lived to be able to reproduce are now doing so. I don't know what the answer to that is though.

You both have brought up a very hard philosophical subject with your posts there. I'm a bit stumped on that too.

But it's worth looking into.

A Tribe (as recently seen on doco on NITV, but I forget the name of it) in South America would 'cull' their elderly and even infants if it meant compromising the survival of the Tribe overall.

Yet, to use an imaginary Tribe, that keeps it's Down Syndrome member alive and supports it - due to compassion (?), takes a harder path.
Look what happened to the 300 Spartans when they 'rejected' that flawed being that should have been thrown into the pit of imperfection.

I think (so far) that 'both' are right in their ways.

...gee, this one is a tough one.  :-/

You both realise that this Topic could threaten the Nanny State that has evolved.  :D
Wonder what Aqua would say?


And Gandalf said "Because Bilbo gives me courage"

https://www.survivopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/df20855199df780d376bd61fb2f67fb8.jpg

Super Nova wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2021 at 8:19pm:

As technology created by a minority of clever people allows the lives of the majority to improve and combined with the learned class having fewer children and the rest breed beyond their ability to support them, are we as a total species going backwards? Our society and support structures allow the weak and less intelligent to survive and to outbreed those that make it possible. Will stupidity grow and be the end of us?

I am not convinced the unlearned are less intelligent The population explosion combined with unfettered consumerism have the potential for disaster, but I don't see any past epoch when humanity demonstrated great intelligence. We are very good at flattering ourselves, and the learned are better at it than most, and remain as avaricious as ever. That's not very intelligent in my book.

Jasin wrote on Mar 6^th, 2021 at 1:35pm:

You both have brought up a very hard philosophical subject with your posts there. I'm a bit stumped on that too. But it's worth looking into. A Tribe (as recently seen on doco on NITV, but I forget the name of it) in South America would 'cull' their elderly and even infants if it meant compromising the survival of the Tribe overall. Yet, to use an imaginary Tribe, that keeps it's Down Syndrome member alive and supports it - due to compassion (?), takes a harder path.

It's even more brutal than that.
Would anyone be prepared to return to the days of half of children dying before adulthood, women dying in childbirth and healthy adults dying of preventable diseases all for some vaguely perceived "improvement of the gene pool" ?

This would not be acceptable to people

Proof is the reaction of the majority of the world to covid-19 which shows that we are not prepared to sacrifice even our elderly and vulnerable.

What about the elephant in the room that everyone has missed.

The deliberate dumbing down of the population through the education system and the host of electronic data that we are all subjected to every day.

Keep the plebs busy so they are none the wiser..... :-*

Ajax wrote on Mar 7^th, 2021 at 10:32am:

What about the elephant in the room that everyone has missed. The deliberate dumbing down of the population through the education system and the host of electronic data that we are all subjected to every day. Keep the plebs busy so they are none the wiser..... :-*

No that's not what this subject is about

The_Barnacle wrote on Mar 8^th, 2021 at 9:52am:

Ajax wrote on Mar 7th, 2021 at 10:32am: What about the elephant in the room that everyone has missed. The deliberate dumbing down of the population through the education system and the host of electronic data that we are all subjected to every day. Keep the plebs busy so they are none the wiser..... :-* No that's not what this subject is about

Why isn't it?

When we're talking about the survival of the species, all subject matter is relevant to the discussion

Dumbing down of populations by "top-of-the-pyramid" hierarchies has made civilizations disappear, or be taken over by stronger civilizations

To-day, we have a global top-of-the-pyramid political hierarchy demanding that we all tow their political line. We get dumbed down to their way of thinking, and often punished for saying or doing anything different

Should the survival of the species be left in the hands of only a "God like" global hierarchy?

Remembering of course that single entity hierarchies, "dictatorships", both left and right, inevitably brought misery to their people

At the moment, we are all being asked, nay practically ordered, to follow global PC politics and thought processes. Even our democracies demand it now. "Single entity" hierarchies can be made up of various groups pitching in together, but are no less single entity - destroyer of dissension and destroyer of civilizations

To survive, there must be no "dictatorships" ruling over the masses. Generally speaking, the masses will ultimately work things out for themselves, with guidance perhaps, but certainly not with authoritarian dictatorial methods, regardless of who it's coming from, whether soft or harsh rulers 

You have a comprehension problem Bias
Thats why you start threads about Muslim terrorism in the Philosophy forum and reducing the road toll in the extremism forum.

This thread isn't about you and Ajax and your deluded conspiracy theories
It's about this


Super Nova wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2021 at 8:19pm:

Our society and support structures allow the weak and less intelligent to survive and to outbreed those that make it possible.

I would say that the under-class (bottom of the pyramid) would support and carry the burden of invalids, sydromers and any other aspect of human faults. But their way is Quantity over Quality.
While the upper-class (top of the pyramid) would be Quality over Quantity to the point (as we see in Royalty) where even the kids have to bow and curtsey to the Queen - their own mother and grandmother. With only moments of informal love shared.

...but that's the price you pay when you're at the top of the pyramid. The Pharoahs (excluding  the long lived 'Ranga' Ramses who was found as an orphan and went on to have many children) by tradition were trapped in a cage of Power, where 'love' was sacrificed and the only sexual action they got was with their siblings and cousins (of high standings).
So in a way, they too - provide those 'faults' and genetic burdens.

Then you have the two (reversed) middle-classes in the middle of the Pyramid. The upper middle tends to be more sexually free like the lower-class, but their power tends to be corrupted because of this. The lower middle tends to be corrupt in relationships, but a less corrupt power with what they have.

Love, sex, breeding as a Positive: Lower Class and Upper Middle.
Power, privilege, culture as a Positive: Upper Class and Lower Middle.

...this is reflected in every society around the world through-out history with only random exceptions (mutations) that move away from this. But I find these harder to understand.

Each (of the 8) Race(s) will always have that 'Pure' section - as Harry & Megan found out regarding the 'impure colour' of their children threatening that Pure state genetically with bloodline. I a 'mass' - well, that will never be threatened, but in such a narrow corridor of Power - basing Royalty, Presidency, Emperors and anyone else way up there, Bloodlines will always betray the Power. The true 'Pure' bloodlines are with the people.
There will be an ocean of mixed and coloured, with (8) islands where 'purity' of race can be preserved and both need each other.
Power itself, at it's highest is nothing but a Mechanism. The Throne is more powerful than the Human that sits upon it. It is the Golden Cage. The Buddhists know this a bit, that's why they don't choose a Dalai Lama because of a Blood-line. They choose upon the potential of character that will be strong enough to serve the position the best. The next Dalai Lama could come from Morocco or New Zealand. It might be Karl Stefanovic's son of 'Whole Pizza' fame.

So Supernova, I guess you could say that Australia's Nanny State through Politics is emerging. Where, like the Art Industry in America - is a more compassionate effort to care for the 'flawed', while our Art Industry will soon turn into a competitive Institution that will not tolerate imperfections.

There is a part of our world that is going 'backwards', but another going 'forwards' and some that just like the Sustainable and Stability in the middle.

Like I said. Great Topic and very complicated.

Look at the Corona Effect, it's really culling the less Medically enhanced people and nations. While World War would be where the more military might survive from being casualties and victims (like the Jews were).

The_Barnacle wrote on Mar 8^th, 2021 at 3:28pm:

You have a comprehension problem Bias Thats why you start threads about Muslim terrorism in the Philosophy forum and reducing the road toll in the extremism forum. This thread isn't about you and Ajax and your deluded conspiracy theories It's about this Super Nova wrote on Mar 3rd, 2021 at 8:19pm: Our society and support structures allow the weak and less intelligent to survive and to outbreed those that make it possible.

"When we're talking about the survival of the species, all subject matter is relevant to the discussion"

Super Nova wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2021 at 8:19pm:

As technology created by a minority of clever people allows the lives of the majority to improve and combined with the learned class having fewer children and the rest breed beyond their ability to support them, are we as a total species going backwards? Our society and support structures allow the weak and less intelligent to survive and to outbreed those that make it possible. Will stupidity grow and be the end of us?

You first need to prove that your assertions are true and correct - they may not be. But for the sake of the discussion, let's assume they are true and correct …

Then I'd ask two questions that are directly related to your wording and meanings in your OP, which is all one has to go by

1) Should the weak and less intelligent be encouraged to breed less to prevent the learned class having less number of children compared to those of the weak and less intelligent masses?, and If so …

2) Should technology be banned or made less "technical" so as to maintain the correct balance between the minority of "clever" people and the majority of the weak and less intelligent?

And a third question drawn from Question 2) ....

What would be the "correct balance", five learned folk to every one thousand weak and less intelligent folk? We'll need to know if we wish to have informed opinions

I'm sure there'd have to be lots of research to find out


Other than all that, if we are going backward, it's probably because we are self-interested rather than having purpose as a species. Having purpose would include planning the future, and that in turn doesn't have to necessarily mean worshiping high tech technology.

As far as high tech medical equipment goes, well what do you think of it, is it stupid for a doctor to send you for a scan? - probably not, so you might then think Medicare rebates and subsidized medicines are stupid, they are what keep people living longer, there's not so much money coming out of their pockets for treatment, therefore scans become financially possible for the weak and less intelligent to help them survive longer

Bias_2012 wrote on Mar 9^th, 2021 at 8:39pm:

Super Nova wrote on Mar 3rd, 2021 at 8:19pm: As technology created by a minority of clever people allows the lives of the majority to improve and combined with the learned class having fewer children and the rest breed beyond their ability to support them, are we as a total species going backwards? Our society and support structures allow the weak and less intelligent to survive and to outbreed those that make it possible. Will stupidity grow and be the end of us? You first need to prove that your assertions are true and correct - they may not be. But for the sake of the discussion, let's assume they are true and correct … Then I'd ask two questions that are directly related to your wording and meanings in your OP, which is all one has to go by 1) Should the weak and less intelligent be encouraged to breed less to prevent the learned class having less number of children compared to those of the weak and less intelligent masses?, and If so … 2) Should technology be banned or made less "technical" so as to maintain the correct balance between the minority of "clever" people and the majority of the weak and less intelligent? And a third question drawn from Question 2) .... What would be the "correct balance", five learned folk to every one thousand weak and less intelligent folk? We'll need to know if we wish to have informed opinions I'm sure there'd have to be lots of research to find out Other than all that, if we are going backward, it's probably because we are self-interested rather than having purpose as a species. Having purpose would include planning the future, and that in turn doesn't have to necessarily mean worshiping high tech technology. As far as high tech medical equipment goes, well what do you think of it, is it stupid for a doctor to send you for a scan? - probably not, so you might then think Medicare rebates and subsidized medicines are stupid, they are what keep people living longer, there's not so much money coming out of their pockets for treatment, therefore scans become financially possible for the weak and less intelligent to help them survive longer

I had this discussion years ago we concluded evolution was going backwards along with the increase of the "Campbelltown gene" contributing towards a dumber society as poor stupid people were outbreeding intelligent people.

1) Maybe we should stop taxpayers supporting these lower intelligence people from breeding which would reduce their numbers. Tax breaks for the smarter people might encourage them to breed more without other taxpayers funding their offspring.

2) No. We should encourage people to learn and encourage those who earn lots of money to breed more with tax reductions instead of financing those with less intelligence who rely on taxpayers to pay for their children.

3) Medical technology prolongs the life of those with weak genetics which results in those people breeding instead of dying out which results in a general weaker gene pool. Take peanut allergy for an example in the past those people would have died removing their genetics from the gene pool today they can be saved allowing them to propagate their faulty genes allowing more people to have peanut allergies and rely on medical technology to be saved from eating peanuts. In this regard with evolution we are certainly going backwards.

From an evolutionary point of view we are certainly going backwards as a species.

Is there any actual evidence that average intelligence is declining? Or is stupidity just more obvious?

I'll put this out there.
Does 'too much' Screen Time (watching too much TV, Internet, etc) cause Autism with the 'sit and stare' symptom? More in the case of the next generations of those who live this sort of 'environment'.
Similar to are females born into generations of using the Pill becoming less able to fall pregnant (even though the latest generation may not be using the Pill) and thus an increase in the need for IVF?
Is the environment of Technology itself 'dumbing' down future generations (and sterilising)? A reliance on Computers/Media to do the thinking for us?
I wasn't 'born' into that environment, but many now are.
Where long ago, people had Religious Shrines in their homes to Monotheistic or Pagan Gods but now the Computer Room or big TV screen now have become the Shrines of our attentions.

I can cite this for sure. The WW2 generation men prided themselves on their abilities with mental arithmetic. They were bloody good at it. And they could do long division of Pounds, 20 shillings and 12 pence.

Jasin wrote on Mar 10^th, 2021 at 12:52pm:

I'll put this out there. Does 'too much' Screen Time (watching too much TV, Internet, etc) cause Autism with the 'sit and stare' symptom? More in the case of the next generations of those who live this sort of 'environment'. Similar to are females born into generations of using the Pill becoming less able to fall pregnant (even though the latest generation may not be using the Pill) and thus an increase in the need for IVF? Is the environment of Technology itself 'dumbing' down future generations (and sterilising)? A reliance on Computers/Media to do the thinking for us? I wasn't 'born' into that environment, but many now are. Where long ago, people had Religious Shrines in their homes to Monotheistic or Pagan Gods but now the Computer Room or big TV screen now have become the Shrines of our attentions.

Shopping malls have replaced the village green. We are the village green preservation affiliates long live Fu Manchu strawberry jam and billiards.

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 11^th, 2021 at 1:43am:

Jasin wrote on Mar 10th, 2021 at 12:52pm: I'll put this out there. Does 'too much' Screen Time (watching too much TV, Internet, etc) cause Autism with the 'sit and stare' symptom? More in the case of the next generations of those who live this sort of 'environment'. Similar to are females born into generations of using the Pill becoming less able to fall pregnant (even though the latest generation may not be using the Pill) and thus an increase in the need for IVF? Is the environment of Technology itself 'dumbing' down future generations (and sterilising)? A reliance on Computers/Media to do the thinking for us? I wasn't 'born' into that environment, but many now are. Where long ago, people had Religious Shrines in their homes to Monotheistic or Pagan Gods but now the Computer Room or big TV screen now have become the Shrines of our attentions. Shopping malls have replaced the village green. We are the village green preservation affiliates long live Fu Manchu strawberry jam and billiards.

I hate to admit it but I still shop at a shopping mall miles away even though I live in a village "green", trouble being the village doesn't produce the homegrown fresh food of old. It would be so easy to do, but no one does it, too spoiled by modern living, but where is the modern living leading us to if we forget the past? The past may come in handy one day. That said, there is still a lot of folk in the bush growing food in their yards

On my property there's a peach tree, tending to it is something completely new to me, but not to cockatoos, they know exactly when to eat them, early in the morning before I get up, and just before the peaches are soft enough for human consumption. Cockatoos are usually noisy buggers but they pinch fruit off the tree in absolute silence, I have no inkling they are there munching away. I've got to get a net over the tree. I've learned how to deal with fruitfly, now to keep the cockatoos at bay and I might get a feed next time

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 9^th, 2021 at 9:09pm:

[ I had this discussion years ago we concluded evolution was going backwards along with the increase of the "Campbelltown gene" contributing towards a dumber society as poor stupid people were outbreeding intelligent people.

As usual you are completely wrong.

Intelligence is also affected by environmental factors it isn't purely genetic
Wealth is affected more by the wealth of your parents than by your own intelligence (just look at James Packer)

The_Barnacle wrote on Mar 12^th, 2021 at 3:38pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 9th, 2021 at 9:09pm: [ I had this discussion years ago we concluded evolution was going backwards along with the increase of the "Campbelltown gene" contributing towards a dumber society as poor stupid people were outbreeding intelligent people. As usual you are completely wrong. Intelligence is also affected by environmental factors it isn't purely genetic Wealth is affected more by the wealth of your parents than by your own intelligence (just look at James Packer)

;D

Yes. Environment on intelligence is a big one, always has been. Ask any Astronaut who has looked down on their own world from such a detached state like no other humans can imagine or even comprehend (like Flat-Earthers?) and they will tell you it is a life-changing experience inside their skulls. "It changes you and never leaves you, even back on earth." But none of them go into describing it much like some 'in-house' secret among them all.

That's why I know there is no life on Mars beyond maybe some microbes. I doubt any fossils. Because if Mars was always like that for most of its history beyond floods of sterile liquids. It's really not an environment to stimulate and evolve major to even minor species development.
Mars is still stuck in Pre-Achaean Age even. Now that's OLD.

---

Jasin wrote on Mar 12^th, 2021 at 5:38pm:

Yes. Environment on intelligence is a big one, always has been.

As with most things it is a mixture of genetics and environment but to simply say that poor people are stupid and rich people are smart is a gross generalisation which really only serves to support a political agenda. It is in the interest of the rich to inflate their own egos by believing that their wealth is purely a result of their own talent.

Studies have shown that identical twins reared apart have IQ’s that are less similar than identical twins reared in the same environment. A stimulating learning environment, good nutrition and a stable home environment are all environmental factors which affect intelligence. 

The_Barnacle wrote on Mar 14^th, 2021 at 10:32am:

Jasin wrote on Mar 12th, 2021 at 5:38pm: Yes. Environment on intelligence is a big one, always has been. As with most things it is a mixture of genetics and environment but to simply say that poor people are stupid and rich people are smart is a gross generalisation which really only serves to support a political agenda. It is in the interest of the rich to inflate their own egos by believing that their wealth is purely a result of their own talent. Studies have shown that identical twins reared apart have IQ’s that are less similar than identical twins reared in the same environment. A stimulating learning environment, good nutrition and a stable home environment are all environmental factors which affect intelligence.

Great Post  8-)