... as a military defeat?

Following on the heels of defeats and withdrawals in Korea and Vietnam.

Will all the Australian atrocities now be exposed?

Militarily it's a none issue. Occupying a country for 2 decades without stretching your military is not exactly a defeat. The real disaster is our failure to wipe out the Taliban. That problem is not going away. Look for another war to come the next time they antagonise someone more powerful, and for the ongoing slaughter and oppression of Afghan civilians in the meantime.

As an investment of suicide for results, the 9/11 crime was tops. Vietnam was 8 years, Terror was 20 and counting. And the $.   Australia paddled along behind Big Bro but it all costs everyone a lot.

Would you give up the latest iphone to rid the world of the Taliban? Or do you seem them as a vital part of the rich tapestry?

This is the math:

"Over 7,000 U.S. service members and over 8,000 contractors have died in the post-9/11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere."

It doesn't seem rational to sacrifice 15,000 to avenge the death of ~3000. Plus probably ten times that many wounded and mentally incapacitated.

“An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind.”
This piece of wisdom is commonly attributed to the Indian independence movement leader M.K. Gandhi, and it seems to succinctly summarize his pacifist views.

Dead Afghans and Iraqis aren't counted because they don't count to the Pentagon.

~30,000 US military personnel injured. No information on contractors.

freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2021 at 2:42pm:

Would you give up the latest iphone to rid the world of the Taliban? Or do you seem them as a vital part of the rich tapestry?

In 1839 the British dealt with Afghans and withdrew defeated in 1842, as US does today, repeating Vietnam.

In  2011, bin Laden was shot and killed by US Navy SEALs in  Pakistan. That would be appropriate, warlike and economic. A victory at sea where they dumped Bin Liner.  All the rest in Middle East was rubbish policy.

freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2021 at 1:16pm:

Militarily it's a none issue. Occupying a country for 2 decades without stretching your military is not exactly a defeat. The real disaster is our failure to wipe out the Taliban. That problem is not going away. Look for another war to come the next time they antagonise someone more powerful, and for the ongoing slaughter and oppression of Afghan civilians in the meantime.

Yes - as predicted the country is rapidly descending into chaos with the withdrawal of foreign troops.  Everyone knew the Talib would be out in force again and seeking to impose their iron will, and protestations by the US government that breaching the 'deal' made with them would result in dire consequences - nobody really believes the US will return in force any more than they did in 1975 with Vietnam.

Same old - same old...

It was chaos with the US there, which is why they're doing a runner. Afghanistan is actually a nation where UN law does not allow invasion.
Taliban are crook like half of South America over the years, supported by US.

Laugh till you cry wrote on Aug 8^th, 2021 at 2:53pm:

This is the math: "Over 7,000 U.S. service members and over 8,000 contractors have died in the post-9/11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere." It doesn't seem rational to sacrifice 15,000 to avenge the death of ~3000. Plus probably ten times that many wounded and mentally incapacitated. “An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind.” This piece of wisdom is commonly attributed to the Indian independence movement leader M.K. Gandhi, and it seems to succinctly summarize his pacifist views. Dead Afghans and Iraqis aren't counted because they don't count to the Pentagon.

9/11 wasn't some kind of accident LTYC. The Taliban had declared war on the US. This is no less idiotic than insisting WWII was just an overreaction to Pearl Harbour.


chimera wrote on Aug 8^th, 2021 at 6:00pm:

It was chaos with the US there, which is why they're doing a runner. Afghanistan is actually a nation where UN law does not allow invasion. Taliban are crook like half of South America over the years, supported by US.

At the time of US invasion, the Afghan government was only recognised by two other countries. Everyone else called it for what it was - a failed state.

freediver wrote on Aug 9^th, 2021 at 7:01pm:

The Taliban had declared war on the US.

That is a lie.

freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2021 at 1:16pm:

Militarily it's a none issue. Occupying a country for 2 decades without stretching your military is not exactly a defeat. The real disaster is our failure to wipe out the Taliban. That problem is not going away. Look for another war to come the next time they antagonise someone more powerful, and for the ongoing slaughter and oppression of Afghan civilians in the meantime.

You can't wipe cancer people want.

The mistake of the West and America is to think that all people are like the West and America. They are evidently not like that AT ALL. Diversity MUST be taken seriously - and it's not about garlic and spicy food and quant costumes.

The Taliban is a cancer on humanity and a lot of Afghans WANT that cancer. They want it to grow and obliterate anything healthy. It's not the only cancer. It's the cancer of the current news cycle.

There are crap cultures, crap creeds, crap ways of organising your live and society.
There are good cultures, good creeds, good ways of organising your life and society.

It's only idiots and ignorant, yawny, tut-tutting idiots who maintain that any way to organise your life and your society is JUST AS GOOD as any other way.  That way lies moronic, woke destruction.

Once all the troops have been pulled

They are going to nuke the joint.

And then blame the Taliban.

Watch this space.

Valkie wrote on Aug 9^th, 2021 at 8:19pm:

Once all the troops have been pulled They are going to nuke the joint. And then blame the Taliban. Watch this space.

Valkie's mental state is deteriorating rapidly. Dementia and psychosis.

What's atrocious is the Afghanis doing SFA and letting the USA via Mujahadeens and Russia via Talibans tear their nation apart.

...and Australia not taking its own initiative and taking on the Taliban upon its own steam and strategies beyond USA involvement.

Indonesia and Asia is right. Australia is just a 'dog' for the USA.

Laugh till you cry wrote on Aug 9^th, 2021 at 9:06pm:

Valkie wrote on Aug 9th, 2021 at 8:19pm: Once all the troops have been pulled They are going to nuke the joint. And then blame the Taliban. Watch this space. Valkie's mental state is deteriorating rapidly. Dementia and psychosis.

You gotta have a dream, no?

Nuking the tinted races might be a tad ambitious, but at least it's a plan.

What are the leftards going to do about it?

Karnal wrote on Aug 10^th, 2021 at 11:11am:

Laugh till you cry wrote on Aug 9th, 2021 at 9:06pm: Valkie wrote on Aug 9th, 2021 at 8:19pm: Once all the troops have been pulled They are going to nuke the joint. And then blame the Taliban. Watch this space. Valkie's mental state is deteriorating rapidly. Dementia and psychosis. You gotta have a dream, no? Nuking the tinted races might be a tad ambitious, but at least it's a plan. What are the leftards going to do about it?

Tell us about your bravery in Vietnam?

Laugh till you cry wrote on Aug 9^th, 2021 at 7:52pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 9th, 2021 at 7:01pm: The Taliban had declared war on the US. That is a lie.

Al Qaeda, under Osama, declared war on the US in 1996. They followed through in 2001 with 9/11. The Taliban offered them protection.

freediver wrote on Aug 10^th, 2021 at 5:01pm:

Laugh till you cry wrote on Aug 9th, 2021 at 7:52pm: freediver wrote on Aug 9th, 2021 at 7:01pm: The Taliban had declared war on the US. That is a lie. Al Qaeda, under Osama, declared war on the US in 1996. They followed through in 2001 with 9/11. The Taliban offered them protection.

It's part of the eastern strict hospitality code, custom and culture... Even Athos would get protection...

So not a compliment as an obligation.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 10^th, 2021 at 5:13pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 10th, 2021 at 5:01pm: Laugh till you cry wrote on Aug 9th, 2021 at 7:52pm: freediver wrote on Aug 9th, 2021 at 7:01pm: The Taliban had declared war on the US. That is a lie. Al Qaeda, under Osama, declared war on the US in 1996. They followed through in 2001 with 9/11. The Taliban offered them protection. It's part of the eastern strict hospitality code, custom and culture... Even Athos would get protection... So not a compliment as an obligation.

So how do they decide who to protect and who to throw off a building?

Whether it is a "compliment" is irrelevant.

freediver wrote on Aug 10^th, 2021 at 5:15pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 10th, 2021 at 5:13pm: freediver wrote on Aug 10th, 2021 at 5:01pm: Laugh till you cry wrote on Aug 9th, 2021 at 7:52pm: freediver wrote on Aug 9th, 2021 at 7:01pm: The Taliban had declared war on the US. That is a lie. Al Qaeda, under Osama, declared war on the US in 1996. They followed through in 2001 with 9/11. The Taliban offered them protection. It's part of the eastern strict hospitality code, custom and culture... Even Athos would get protection... So not a compliment as an obligation. So how do they decide who to protect and who to throw off a building?

Inshallah

If (and when) Allah wills it.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 10^th, 2021 at 11:23am:

Karnal wrote on Aug 10th, 2021 at 11:11am: Laugh till you cry wrote on Aug 9th, 2021 at 9:06pm: Valkie wrote on Aug 9th, 2021 at 8:19pm: Once all the troops have been pulled They are going to nuke the joint. And then blame the Taliban. Watch this space. Valkie's mental state is deteriorating rapidly. Dementia and psychosis. You gotta have a dream, no? Nuking the tinted races might be a tad ambitious, but at least it's a plan. What are the leftards going to do about it? Tell us about your bravery in Vietnam?

Oh, we had chumps like you on all fours, you would have loved it.

freediver wrote on Aug 10^th, 2021 at 5:01pm:

Laugh till you cry wrote on Aug 9th, 2021 at 7:52pm: freediver wrote on Aug 9th, 2021 at 7:01pm: The Taliban had declared war on the US. That is a lie. Al Qaeda, under Osama, declared war on the US in 1996. They followed through in 2001 with 9/11. The Taliban offered them protection.

Yeah, and the Taliban sent chiefs over to meet with the Bush family in Texas around the same time.

After 9/11, the State Department sent Osama's family back to Saudi Arabia to avoid any pesky questions.

They didn't get the memo:

Sometimes a question is just a question.

What do you think they should have done with his family Karnal?

freediver wrote on Aug 10^th, 2021 at 5:39pm:

What do you think they should have done with his family Karnal?

Er, kept them there for questions?

You?

"On October 18, 2010, an unnamed NATO official suggested that bin Laden was alive, well, and living comfortably in Pakistan, protected by elements of the country's intelligence services. On March 29, 2011, Pakistani newspaper Dawn acquired a report produced by Pakistani security officials, based on interrogation of his three surviving wives, that detailed his movements while living underground in Pakistan".

UK aid to Pakistan in 2001  £27m. pounds , 2009 £218m.  2010 and 2011 UK contributed £330 million.  In 2013/14  aid spend in Pakistan was £253 million. 

David Cameron offered to invade Pakistan with the Indian Army and US Fifth Fleet, Israel's סיירת Special Forces and Australia's spare F111s. However, Barack bin Obama (peace be upon him) said Afghanistan was the turkey and maybe next time.

Karnal wrote on Aug 10^th, 2021 at 5:40pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 10th, 2021 at 5:39pm: What do you think they should have done with his family Karnal? Er, kept them there for questions? You?

I expect they questioned them, then deported them.

freediver wrote on Aug 10^th, 2021 at 5:44pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 10th, 2021 at 5:40pm: freediver wrote on Aug 10th, 2021 at 5:39pm: What do you think they should have done with his family Karnal? Er, kept them there for questions? You? I expect they questioned them, then deported them.

Oh? That was quick. 13/09/2001:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2003/10/saving-the-saudis-200310

Any other Saudi families you'd like to apologise for, or just the bin Ladens?

Do you have a point Karnal?

freediver wrote on Aug 10^th, 2021 at 8:19pm:

Do you have a point Karnal?

I have a question. What do you think about the bin Ladens being whisked out of America during a no-fly order, two days after 9/11?

You didn't say.

Karnal wrote on Aug 10^th, 2021 at 8:22pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 10th, 2021 at 8:19pm: Do you have a point Karnal? I have a question. What do you think about the bin Ladens being whisked out of America during a no-fly order, two days after 9/11? You didn't say.

I haven't given it any thought.

Have you?

Do you think it is relevant to what we were discussing, or are you trying to change the subject?

freediver wrote on Aug 10^th, 2021 at 8:55pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 10th, 2021 at 8:22pm: freediver wrote on Aug 10th, 2021 at 8:19pm: Do you have a point Karnal? I have a question. What do you think about the bin Ladens being whisked out of America during a no-fly order, two days after 9/11? You didn't say. I haven't given it any thought. Have you? Do you think it is relevant to what we were discussing, or are you trying to change the subject?

I have. It's relevant because you just blamed the Taliban for 9/11. Haven't given any thought to the bin Ladens, eh?

What sound does a jellyfish make?

Yes, the Taliban allowed refuge to Al Quaeda people.. Pakistan allowed refuge for up to Osama himself, as shown by his being taken out by the US there.

Allegiances are very murky.... the Taliban leadership (as opposed to Taliban simple) may have felt common cause with AQ, or simply sided with 'fellow' Muslims.  Some simple Taliban may have wanted to join AQ and engage in specific Jihad.

While there is a hodge-podge of interwoven allegiances along many lines - THEIR (Radical Muslims/Islamists) lines are drawn clearly to them -  nowhere near it to rest of the world, specifically the West, which still floats along on a sea of fluffy thoughts about humanity and essentially feels insulated from such things building as we speak.

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Aug 11^th, 2021 at 6:08am:

Yes, the Taliban allowed refuge to Al Quaeda people.. Pakistan allowed refuge for up to Osama himself, as shown by his being taken out by the US there. Allegiances are very murky.... the Taliban leadership (as opposed to Taliban simple) may have felt common cause with AQ, or simply sided with 'fellow' Muslims.  Some simple Taliban may have wanted to join AQ and engage in specific Jihad. While there is a hodge-podge of interwoven allegiances along many lines - THEIR (Radical Muslims/Islamists) lines are drawn clearly to them -  nowhere near it to rest of the world, specifically the West, which still floats along on a sea of fluffy thoughts about humanity and essentially feels insulated from such things building as we speak.

That's a nonsensical rant.

Try again when sober.

A bit complicated for you, LTC?

chimera wrote on Aug 11^th, 2021 at 9:29am:

A bit complicated for you, LTC?

Don't respond - you only encourage his idiocy.  He knows nothing.

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Aug 11^th, 2021 at 9:40am:

chimera wrote on Aug 11th, 2021 at 9:29am: A bit complicated for you, LTC? Don't respond - you only encourage his idiocy.  He knows nothing.

Grappler's surrender is not accepted. I don't have enough stock to meet his alcohol needs while he is in captivity awaiting his destiny. He might never want to leave.

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Aug 11^th, 2021 at 6:08am:

Yes, the Taliban allowed refuge to Al Quaeda people.. Pakistan allowed refuge for up to Osama himself, as shown by his being taken out by the US there. Allegiances are very murky.... the Taliban leadership (as opposed to Taliban simple) may have felt common cause with AQ, or simply sided with 'fellow' Muslims.  Some simple Taliban may have wanted to join AQ and engage in specific Jihad. While there is a hodge-podge of interwoven allegiances along many lines - THEIR (Radical Muslims/Islamists) lines are drawn clearly to them -  nowhere near it to rest of the world, specifically the West, which still floats along on a sea of fluffy thoughts about humanity and essentially feels insulated from such things building as we speak.

The Bush administration assisted the bin Laden family to flee an investigation into 9/11. 

Saudi Arabia is a key US ally. You may recall a recent multi-billion dollar weapons deal. It's designed to ensure Saudi control over the Middle East. Saudi Arabia is one, if not the most, extreme Islamicist state in the world. Their most influential alliance is with the US.

What sound does a jellyfish make?

Invading Iraq without justification created ISIS who were ex Saddam Hussain Generals and soldiers displaced by the Coalition of the Killing....Tens of thousands of innocent people have died because of this illegal war for oil....We have nothing to be proud of by following the Yanks into their illegal wars!!!

>:( >:( >:(

Just nuke the whole country

Do the world a favor.

philperth2010 wrote on Aug 11^th, 2021 at 11:16am:

Invading Iraq without justification created ISIS who were ex Saddam Hussain Generals and soldiers displaced by the Coalition of the Killing....Tens of thousands of innocent people have died because of this illegal war for oil....We have nothing to be proud of by following the Yanks into their illegal wars!!! >:( >:( >:(

As vile as the invasion of Iraq was, it did not create ISIS. You think they were all Brian Ross style peace loving Muzlums before that? Get real. ISIS follows instructions in the Koran. Like the Taliban they just melt into the population when the going gets tough. They are in force in Afghanistan and regional Iraq.

issuevoter wrote on Aug 11^th, 2021 at 11:30am:

philperth2010 wrote on Aug 11th, 2021 at 11:16am: Invading Iraq without justification created ISIS who were ex Saddam Hussain Generals and soldiers displaced by the Coalition of the Killing....Tens of thousands of innocent people have died because of this illegal war for oil....We have nothing to be proud of by following the Yanks into their illegal wars!!! >:( >:( >:( As vile as the invasion of Iraq was, it did not create ISIS. You think they were all Brian Ross style peace loving Muzlums before that? Get real. ISIS follows instructions in the Koran. Like the Taliban they just melt into the population when the going gets tough. They are in force in Afghanistan and regional Iraq.

ISIS was a creation of George W Bush. Sunnis did not need ISIS before George Bush because they were in charge.

George Bush fired all Sunnis from military and government positions and chased them out of commerce and industry. They had no alternative but to fight. George W Bush excluded Sunnis from Iraqi society.

There is so much ignorance among conservatives.

If ignorance was a valuable commodity the heads of conservatives would be full of drill holes seeking to exploit that commodity.

issuevoter wrote on Aug 11^th, 2021 at 11:30am:

philperth2010 wrote on Aug 11th, 2021 at 11:16am: Invading Iraq without justification created ISIS who were ex Saddam Hussain Generals and soldiers displaced by the Coalition of the Killing....Tens of thousands of innocent people have died because of this illegal war for oil....We have nothing to be proud of by following the Yanks into their illegal wars!!! >:( >:( >:( As vile as the invasion of Iraq was, it did not create ISIS. You think they were all Brian Ross style peace loving Muzlums before that? Get real. ISIS follows instructions in the Koran. Like the Taliban they just melt into the population when the going gets tough. They are in force in Afghanistan and regional Iraq.

Saddam Husain's Generals were far from peace loving Muslims and religion helped recruit those to their cause....ISIS emerged from the ashes of the Coalition invasion which saw the Islamic State terrorise the population....There were no weapons of mass destruction and innocent people suffered and died for a lie!!!


Quote:

Saddam-era officers have been a powerful factor in the rise of Islamic State, in particular in the Sunni militant group’s victories in Iraq last year. Islamic State then out-muscled the Sunni-dominated Baath Party and absorbed thousands of its followers. The new recruits joined Saddam-era officers who already held key posts in Islamic State.

:-? :-? :-?

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/mideast-crisis-iraq-islamicstate/