freediver wrote on Aug 10^th, 2021 at 5:01pm:

Laugh till you cry wrote on Aug 9th, 2021 at 7:52pm: freediver wrote on Aug 9th, 2021 at 7:01pm: The Taliban had declared war on the US. That is a lie. Al Qaeda, under Osama, declared war on the US in 1996. They followed through in 2001 with 9/11. The Taliban offered them protection.

freediver wrote on Aug 10^th, 2021 at 8:55pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 10th, 2021 at 8:22pm: I have a question. What do you think about the bin Ladens being whisked out of America during a no-fly order, two days after 9/11? You didn't say. I haven't given it any thought.

Minderbinder's enterprise becomes known as "M&M Enterprises", with the two M's standing for his initials and the "&" added to dispel any idea that the enterprise is a one-man operation. Minderbinder travels across the world, especially around the Mediterranean Sea, trying to buy and sell goods at a profit, primarily through black market channels. Everyone has a "share", a fact which Minderbinder uses to defend his actions, stating that what is good for the company is good for all. For example, he secretly replaces the CO2 cartridges in the emergency life vests with printed notes to the effect that what is good for M&M is good for the country.

Eventually, Minderbinder begins contracting missions for the Germans, fighting on both sides in the battle at Orvieto, and bombing his own squadron at Pianosa. At one point Minderbinder orders his fleet of aircraft to attack the American base where he lives, killing many American officers and enlisted men. He finally gets court-martialed for treason. However, as M&M Enterprises proves to be incredibly profitable, he hires an expensive lawyer who is able to convince the court that it was capitalism which made America great, and is absolved only by disclosing his enormous profit to the investigating congressional committee.

In typical Catch-22 satirical fashion, Minderbinder's business is incredibly profitable, with the single exception of his decision to buy all Egyptian cotton in existence, which he cannot unload afterwards (except to other entrepreneurs, who sell the cotton back to him, because he simply ordered all Egyptian cotton) and tries to dispose of by coating it with chocolate and serving it in the mess hall. Later, Yossarian gives Minderbinder the idea of selling the cotton to the government, quoting Calvin Coolidge's assertion that "the business of government is 'business'."

The exact size of Minderbinder's syndicate is never specified. At the beginning of the novel, it is merely a system that gets fresh eggs to his mess hall by buying them in Sicily for one cent, selling them to Malta for four and a half cents, buying them back for seven cents, and finally selling them to the mess halls for five cents. However, the syndicate is soon revealed to have become a large company, and then an international syndicate, making Minderbinder the Mayor of Palermo, Assistant Governor-General of Malta, Shah of Oran, Caliph of Baghdad, mayor of Cairo, and the god of corn, rain, and rice in various pagan African countries. Whenever Minderbinder appears in one of his cities, an impromptu holiday with parades forming around him is declared.

Sourced, without reference from Wikipedia's entry on Milo Minderbender, hey, Soren.  Tsk, tsk, that would earn a fail in any university that I know of, perhaps they do it differently in Baloney?   ::) ::)

Brian, what did you say about having neither the right nor ability to criticise the Muselman?

FD said that about the bin Laden family.

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 11^th, 2021 at 2:39pm:

Sourced, without reference from Wikipedia's entry on Milo Minderbender, hey, Soren.  Tsk, tsk, that would earn a fail in any university that I know of, perhaps they do it differently in Baloney?   ::) ::)

What's this Baloney?

Milo's antics in Catch 22 are so well know by the literate that it doesn't need referencing, Pecksniff. To say any more about your stupidity would be "to waste criticism upon unresisting imbecility, upon faults too evident for detection, and too gross for aggravation".

In any case, this is not a university, it's a chat forum. I hope that's not too technical for you.

Frank wrote on Aug 11^th, 2021 at 5:03pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 11th, 2021 at 2:39pm: Sourced, without reference from Wikipedia's entry on Milo Minderbender, hey, Soren.  Tsk, tsk, that would earn a fail in any university that I know of, perhaps they do it differently in Baloney?   ::) ::) What's this Baloney? Milo's antics in Catch 22 are so well know by the literate that it doesn't need referencing, Pecksniff. To say any more about your stupidity would be "to waste criticism upon unresisting imbecility, upon faults too evident for detection, and too gross for aggravation". In any case, this is not a university, it's a chat forum. I hope that's not too technical for you.

Nonsense. We're a University of Life, a Madrassah if you will.

We're all esteemed students here, dear boy.

As the Saudis like to say, Allah Uakbar, no?

Frank wrote on Aug 11^th, 2021 at 1:27pm:

Minderbinder's enterprise becomes known as "M&M Enterprises", with the two M's standing for his initials and the "&" added to dispel any idea that the enterprise is a one-man operation. Minderbinder travels across the world, especially around the Mediterranean Sea, trying to buy and sell goods at a profit, primarily through black market channels. Everyone has a "share", a fact which Minderbinder uses to defend his actions, stating that what is good for the company is good for all. For example, he secretly replaces the CO2 cartridges in the emergency life vests with printed notes to the effect that what is good for M&M is good for the country. Eventually, Minderbinder begins contracting missions for the Germans, fighting on both sides in the battle at Orvieto, and bombing his own squadron at Pianosa. At one point Minderbinder orders his fleet of aircraft to attack the American base where he lives, killing many American officers and enlisted men. He finally gets court-martialed for treason. However, as M&M Enterprises proves to be incredibly profitable, he hires an expensive lawyer who is able to convince the court that it was capitalism which made America great, and is absolved only by disclosing his enormous profit to the investigating congressional committee. In typical Catch-22 satirical fashion, Minderbinder's business is incredibly profitable, with the single exception of his decision to buy all Egyptian cotton in existence, which he cannot unload afterwards (except to other entrepreneurs, who sell the cotton back to him, because he simply ordered all Egyptian cotton) and tries to dispose of by coating it with chocolate and serving it in the mess hall. Later, Yossarian gives Minderbinder the idea of selling the cotton to the government, quoting Calvin Coolidge's assertion that "the business of government is 'business'." The exact size of Minderbinder's syndicate is never specified. At the beginning of the novel, it is merely a system that gets fresh eggs to his mess hall by buying them in Sicily for one cent, selling them to Malta for four and a half cents, buying them back for seven cents, and finally selling them to the mess halls for five cents. However, the syndicate is soon revealed to have become a large company, and then an international syndicate, making Minderbinder the Mayor of Palermo, Assistant Governor-General of Malta, Shah of Oran, Caliph of Baghdad, mayor of Cairo, and the god of corn, rain, and rice in various pagan African countries. Whenever Minderbinder appears in one of his cities, an impromptu holiday with parades forming around him is declared.

In 'Closing Times Yossarian's shares have soared in value as he works for M & M on a stealth fighter that will never see the light of day. Idealism fades with age, apparently.

Mr Hammer wrote on Aug 11^th, 2021 at 5:54pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 11th, 2021 at 1:27pm: Minderbinder's enterprise becomes known as "M&M Enterprises", with the two M's standing for his initials and the "&" added to dispel any idea that the enterprise is a one-man operation. Minderbinder travels across the world, especially around the Mediterranean Sea, trying to buy and sell goods at a profit, primarily through black market channels. Everyone has a "share", a fact which Minderbinder uses to defend his actions, stating that what is good for the company is good for all. For example, he secretly replaces the CO2 cartridges in the emergency life vests with printed notes to the effect that what is good for M&M is good for the country. Eventually, Minderbinder begins contracting missions for the Germans, fighting on both sides in the battle at Orvieto, and bombing his own squadron at Pianosa. At one point Minderbinder orders his fleet of aircraft to attack the American base where he lives, killing many American officers and enlisted men. He finally gets court-martialed for treason. However, as M&M Enterprises proves to be incredibly profitable, he hires an expensive lawyer who is able to convince the court that it was capitalism which made America great, and is absolved only by disclosing his enormous profit to the investigating congressional committee. In typical Catch-22 satirical fashion, Minderbinder's business is incredibly profitable, with the single exception of his decision to buy all Egyptian cotton in existence, which he cannot unload afterwards (except to other entrepreneurs, who sell the cotton back to him, because he simply ordered all Egyptian cotton) and tries to dispose of by coating it with chocolate and serving it in the mess hall. Later, Yossarian gives Minderbinder the idea of selling the cotton to the government, quoting Calvin Coolidge's assertion that "the business of government is 'business'." The exact size of Minderbinder's syndicate is never specified. At the beginning of the novel, it is merely a system that gets fresh eggs to his mess hall by buying them in Sicily for one cent, selling them to Malta for four and a half cents, buying them back for seven cents, and finally selling them to the mess halls for five cents. However, the syndicate is soon revealed to have become a large company, and then an international syndicate, making Minderbinder the Mayor of Palermo, Assistant Governor-General of Malta, Shah of Oran, Caliph of Baghdad, mayor of Cairo, and the god of corn, rain, and rice in various pagan African countries. Whenever Minderbinder appears in one of his cities, an impromptu holiday with parades forming around him is declared. In 'Closing Times Yossarian's shares have soared in value as he works for M & M on a stealth fighter that will never see the light of day. Idealism fades with age, apparently.

No, no, no. Yossarian JUMMPED!!! Orr is in Sweden!! He made it!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3q-XEl6Y34

Heller was a great writer and Mike Nichols was an equal to him as a director. Heller's book on Aristotle and Rembrandt is a treasure. Something Happened is also a brilliant.

Karnal wrote on Aug 11^th, 2021 at 3:55pm:

Brian, what did you say about having neither the right nor ability to criticise the Muselman? FD said that about the bin Laden family.

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/cd/99/5c/cd995ca2fa75c5b33621a6b181de219b--political-satire-political-cartoons.jpg

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Aug 12^th, 2021 at 2:22am:

Karnal wrote on Aug 11th, 2021 at 3:55pm: Brian, what did you say about having neither the right nor ability to criticise the Muselman? FD said that about the bin Laden family. https://i.pinimg.com/236x/cd/99/5c/cd995ca2fa75c5b33621a6b181de219b--political-satire-political-cartoons.jpg

No, that's ISIS, dear. FD's excusing the Saudis for 9/11.

That's all. You?

You couldn't figure out what your point was in the other thread either Karnal.

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2021 at 12:51pm:

You couldn't figure out what your point was in the other thread either Karnal.

What's the matter, FD? Cat got your tongue?

What was it Brian said again?

Karnal wrote on Aug 13^th, 2021 at 6:00pm:

What was it Brian said again?

Oh, he said spinelessly apologetic stupid stuff again, as usual:


Brian Ross wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 1:36pm:

Oh, dear, if true...The world must not look away as the Taliban sexually enslaves women and girls.  Why I say, "if true", is there was an interesting analysis of Taliban's previous rule in Afghanistan on RN's Background Briefing.  Seems they weren't as popular as the Islamophobes assume and many of their decrees were basically ignored because of that unpopularity...  The end comment was, there appears to be disconnection between what the Taliban's commanders on the ground want and what the Taliban leadership wants.. ::) ::)

He is trying to worm out spinelessly from the Islamist jihadi Taliban enslaving women and girls by babbling about their supposed popularity. As if brutal Islamic jihadist 'may not actually enslave women and girls' by his logic if they are not as popular 'as the Islamomophobes' assume. As if popularity had anything to do with anything in Islamic teachings - of which the talibs are keep students.

The Taliban are STRICTLY Islamic, Brian. It is true. Not 'if true'. And they, like ISIS enslave women and girls STRICTLY along Islamic lines.

Frank wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 4:54pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 13th, 2021 at 6:00pm: What was it Brian said again? Oh, he said spinelessly apologetic stupid stuff again, as usual: Brian Ross wrote on Aug 16th, 2021 at 1:36pm: Oh, dear, if true...The world must not look away as the Taliban sexually enslaves women and girls.  Why I say, "if true", is there was an interesting analysis of Taliban's previous rule in Afghanistan on RN's Background Briefing.  Seems they weren't as popular as the Islamophobes assume and many of their decrees were basically ignored because of that unpopularity...  The end comment was, there appears to be disconnection between what the Taliban's commanders on the ground want and what the Taliban leadership wants.. ::) ::) He is trying to worm out spinelessly from the Islamist jihadi Taliban enslaving women and girls by babbling about their supposed popularity. As if brutal Islamic jihadist 'may not actually enslave women and girls' by his logic if they are not as popular 'as the Islamomophobes' assume. As if popularity had anything to do with anything in Islamic teachings - of which the talibs are keep students. The Taliban are STRICTLY Islamic, Brian. It is true. Not 'if true'. And they, like ISIS enslave women and girls STRICTLY along Islamic lines.

Good show, dear boy, but I'm curious. FD would prefer to play no-speaka-da-English, but he grew here, the silly thing, he can lie all he wants.

You flew here. You have your citizenship test to think about. Do you, old boy, excuse the bin Ladens for 9/11 too?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

Karnal wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 10:05pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 16th, 2021 at 4:54pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 13th, 2021 at 6:00pm: What was it Brian said again? Oh, he said spinelessly apologetic stupid stuff again, as usual: Brian Ross wrote on Aug 16th, 2021 at 1:36pm: Oh, dear, if true...The world must not look away as the Taliban sexually enslaves women and girls.  Why I say, "if true", is there was an interesting analysis of Taliban's previous rule in Afghanistan on RN's Background Briefing.  Seems they weren't as popular as the Islamophobes assume and many of their decrees were basically ignored because of that unpopularity...  The end comment was, there appears to be disconnection between what the Taliban's commanders on the ground want and what the Taliban leadership wants.. ::) ::) He is trying to worm out spinelessly from the Islamist jihadi Taliban enslaving women and girls by babbling about their supposed popularity. As if brutal Islamic jihadist 'may not actually enslave women and girls' by his logic if they are not as popular 'as the Islamomophobes' assume. As if popularity had anything to do with anything in Islamic teachings - of which the talibs are keep students. The Taliban are STRICTLY Islamic, Brian. It is true. Not 'if true'. And they, like ISIS enslave women and girls STRICTLY along Islamic lines. Good show, dear boy, but I'm curious. FD would prefer to play no-speaka-da-English, but he grew here, the silly thing, he can lie all he wants. You flew here. You have your citizenship test to think about. Do you, old boy, excuse the bin Ladens for 9/11 too? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Moron No 3 pipes up.

Frank wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 10:12pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 16th, 2021 at 10:05pm: Frank wrote on Aug 16th, 2021 at 4:54pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 13th, 2021 at 6:00pm: What was it Brian said again? Oh, he said spinelessly apologetic stupid stuff again, as usual: Brian Ross wrote on Aug 16th, 2021 at 1:36pm: Oh, dear, if true...The world must not look away as the Taliban sexually enslaves women and girls.  Why I say, "if true", is there was an interesting analysis of Taliban's previous rule in Afghanistan on RN's Background Briefing.  Seems they weren't as popular as the Islamophobes assume and many of their decrees were basically ignored because of that unpopularity...  The end comment was, there appears to be disconnection between what the Taliban's commanders on the ground want and what the Taliban leadership wants.. ::) ::) He is trying to worm out spinelessly from the Islamist jihadi Taliban enslaving women and girls by babbling about their supposed popularity. As if brutal Islamic jihadist 'may not actually enslave women and girls' by his logic if they are not as popular 'as the Islamomophobes' assume. As if popularity had anything to do with anything in Islamic teachings - of which the talibs are keep students. The Taliban are STRICTLY Islamic, Brian. It is true. Not 'if true'. And they, like ISIS enslave women and girls STRICTLY along Islamic lines. Good show, dear boy, but I'm curious. FD would prefer to play no-speaka-da-English, but he grew here, the silly thing, he can lie all he wants. You flew here. You have your citizenship test to think about. Do you, old boy, excuse the bin Ladens for 9/11 too? A simple yes or no will suffice. Moron No 3 pipes up.

Oh, I see, you want to play no-speaka too.

How diabolically cunning of you, dear boy. What do you Danish swingers say?

Hoofy, wasn't it?

Looks like we've got a candidate for your visa questions, FD. Ask the old boy if he supports Allah Uakbarers if they come in on Saudi passports.

It doesn't matter if you support them too, Remember, you're the one in the Aussie uniform.

The old boy's just another country-shopping foreigner playing tricks.

This is what Bwian is a spineless apologist for

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/afghanistans-first-female-mayor-waiting-taliban-come-kill-her-1152127

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/aug/10/please-pray-for-me-female-reporter-being-hunted-by-the-taliban-tells-her-story

As much as I try to avoid posting in this retarded environment sometimes the level of staggering stupidity goads me into breaking my rule.
___________________________________________________-
Hasn’t it struck any of you the lightening success of the Taliban in taking over isn’t simply because Washington and Canberra etc were muddle heads without a logical plan?
Hasn’t it crossed any of your minds the sudden strategic success of Taliban forces hints at resources and strategic intelligence they themselves didn’t possess? Russian and Chinese spy satellites have been feeding information about US & others troop movements in real time.

Rare earth mineral resources in Afghanistan completes the picture and explains in part how Russia and China are leaving their fully staffed embassies intact.

Thinking ahead how do you imagine this will influence the way China takes over Formosa? 

Ayn Marx wrote on Aug 21^st, 2021 at 1:15pm:

As much as I try to avoid posting in this retarded environment sometimes the level of staggering stupidity goads me into breaking my rule. ___________________________________________________- Hasn’t it struck any of you the lightening success of the Taliban in taking over isn’t simply because Washington and Canberra etc were muddle heads without a logical plan? Hasn’t it crossed any of your minds the sudden strategic success of Taliban forces hints at resources and strategic intelligence they themselves didn’t possess? Russian and Chinese spy satellites have been feeing information about US & others troop movements in real time. Rare earth mineral resources in Afghanistan completes the picture and explains in part how Russia and China are leaving their fully staffed embassies intact. Thinking ahead how do you imagine this will influence the way China takes over Formosa?

What 'troop movements' ?
The American and other allied troops left weeks ago! It was in the news.
That's the issue - they left and the 300,000 strong Afghan army they trained and equipped was no match to 75,000 Jihadi goatfccers in sandals.


A bit like Joe, you can't remember either?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9908309/Biden-says-NO-military-advisers-recall-told-troops-Afghanistan.html

You  don’t appear to realise the implications of considering matters in a wider time frame.

Ayn Marx wrote on Aug 21^st, 2021 at 3:18pm:

You  don’t appear to realise the implications of considering matters in a wider time frame.

I am aware of the implication. But the Taliban didn't win because of some fantasy Chinese satellite monitoring of US troop movements for them.

The US demonstrated amazing incompetence and unreliability in intelligence, strategy, as an ally, as a serious power.

Frank wrote on Aug 21^st, 2021 at 12:23pm:

This is what Bwian is a spineless apologist for https://inews.co.uk/news/world/afghanistans-first-female-mayor-waiting-taliban-come-kill-her-1152127 https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/aug/10/please-pray-for-me-female-reporter-being-hunted-by-the-taliban-tells-her-story

And here's what FD's spinelessly apologising for.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/5/saudi-arabias-scramble-for-an-exit-strategy-in-yemen

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/3/15/saudi-arrests-241-employees-in-multiple-corruption-cases

Ayn Marx wrote on Aug 21^st, 2021 at 1:15pm:

As much as I try to avoid posting in this retarded environment sometimes the level of staggering stupidity goads me into breaking my rule. ___________________________________________________- Hasn’t it struck any of you the lightening success of the Taliban in taking over isn’t simply because Washington and Canberra etc were muddle heads without a logical plan? Hasn’t it crossed any of your minds the sudden strategic success of Taliban forces hints at resources and strategic intelligence they themselves didn’t possess? Russian and Chinese spy satellites have been feeding information about US & others troop movements in real time. Rare earth mineral resources in Afghanistan completes the picture and explains in part how Russia and China are leaving their fully staffed embassies intact. Thinking ahead how do you imagine this will influence the way China takes over Formosa?

Ah.

Frank wrote on Aug 21^st, 2021 at 1:19pm:

Ayn Marx wrote on Aug 21st, 2021 at 1:15pm: As much as I try to avoid posting in this retarded environment sometimes the level of staggering stupidity goads me into breaking my rule. ___________________________________________________- Hasn’t it struck any of you the lightening success of the Taliban in taking over isn’t simply because Washington and Canberra etc were muddle heads without a logical plan? Hasn’t it crossed any of your minds the sudden strategic success of Taliban forces hints at resources and strategic intelligence they themselves didn’t possess? Russian and Chinese spy satellites have been feeing information about US & others troop movements in real time. Rare earth mineral resources in Afghanistan completes the picture and explains in part how Russia and China are leaving their fully staffed embassies intact. Thinking ahead how do you imagine this will influence the way China takes over Formosa?  What 'troop movements' ? The American and other allied troops left weeks ago! It was in the news. That's the issue - they left and the 300,000 strong Afghan army they trained and equipped was no match to 75,000 Jihadi goatfccers in sandals. A bit like Joe, you can't remember either? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9908309/Biden-says-NO-military-advisers-recall-told-troops-Afghanistan.html

Exactly. And the Russians made sure the Taliban were able to watch the news. Otherwise they would not have noticed. Now the Taliban will welcome the Russians with open arms so they can start mining all the natural resources in Afghanistan.

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 8:46am:

Frank wrote on Aug 21st, 2021 at 1:19pm: Ayn Marx wrote on Aug 21st, 2021 at 1:15pm: As much as I try to avoid posting in this retarded environment sometimes the level of staggering stupidity goads me into breaking my rule. ___________________________________________________- Hasn’t it struck any of you the lightening success of the Taliban in taking over isn’t simply because Washington and Canberra etc were muddle heads without a logical plan? Hasn’t it crossed any of your minds the sudden strategic success of Taliban forces hints at resources and strategic intelligence they themselves didn’t possess? Russian and Chinese spy satellites have been feeing information about US & others troop movements in real time. Rare earth mineral resources in Afghanistan completes the picture and explains in part how Russia and China are leaving their fully staffed embassies intact. Thinking ahead how do you imagine this will influence the way China takes over Formosa?  What 'troop movements' ? The American and other allied troops left weeks ago! It was in the news. That's the issue - they left and the 300,000 strong Afghan army they trained and equipped was no match to 75,000 Jihadi goatfccers in sandals. A bit like Joe, you can't remember either? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9908309/Biden-says-NO-military-advisers-recall-told-troops-Afghanistan.html Exactly. And the Russians made sure the Taliban were able to watch the news. Otherwise they would not have noticed. Now the Taliban will welcome the Russians with open arms so they can start mining all the natural resources in Afghanistan.

Think what it says about exporting Western liberal democracy.

In twenty years, Uncle and his friends, for all the best intentions and over two trillion dollars, could only install a corrupt, illegitimate government and an ineffective, ill-equipped army.

All the Taliban, Russia and China had to do was wait.

For all the handwringing going on now, this is the message recorded by history.

This is the writing on the wall for US global hegemony. It's the fall of Saigon on steroids. Right now, Afghanistan is being viewed as the West's last hurrah. If Putin and Xi have their way, it most certainly will be.

Imagine, only twenty years ago, pundits were calling the end of history, with Western liberal democracy triumphant. Not only had the West won the Cold War, it had established the dominant political-economic model for the entire species, forever.

Today, the most backward, oppressive regime imaginable has come out on top, and Russia is back in the game.

China, with its Party-led capitalist model, is on track to surpass US GDP by 2032.

The Western triumphalism that heralded the launch of this website, FD, is a distant memory.

I hardly think that's something to celebrate. The Anglosphere has just squandered five years with Brexit and Trump. Chunks of Europe have gone quietly feral with various far-right fringe parties seizing power or coming close. The West has splintered.

Much of this can be put down to the tactics of Murdoch and other media owners, who have exploited the new info technologies to seize political and economic power. The West was able to keep it together when there were fewer media monopolies to bribe and blackmail politicians.

Even Assange, holed up in the Ecuadorian Embassy, played this game. For a while there, his stance showed promise. Of course, much of the information he released saw populations in Iraq and elsewhere lose trust in Uncle and look for alternatives. As Mao said about guerilla war, the weak shall overcome the strong.

Allah Uakbar, no?

No-one said it was going to be easy Karnal. Most of the world still does not live under liberal democracy. That was also true back when you insist a victory was claimed. It was a narrow victory over communist hegemony, not a final victory over all the evils of the world.

I see plenty of hope in China. It is liberalising at a faster pace than any other historical example I can think of. It is not a different model. That is just CCP propaganda (thanks Athos), and commentators failing to see the wood for the trees. It is a transition to the same model. Before I die, the CCP will either be a pile of corpses, or running open elections. There are plenty of interesting times ahead.

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 12:17pm:

No-one said it was going to be easy Karnal. Most of the world still does not live under liberal democracy. That was also true back when you insist a victory was claimed. It was a narrow victory over communist hegemony, not a final victory over all the evils of the world. I see plenty of hope in China. It is liberalising at a faster pace than any other historical example I can think of. It is not a different model. That is just CCP propaganda (thanks Athos), and commentators failing to see the wood for the trees. It is a transition to the same model. Before I die, the CCP will either be a pile of corpses, or running open elections. There are plenty of interesting times ahead.

The CCP are currently jailing, fining or otherwise silencing the biggest corporate players in China. Under Xi, they are asserting their dominance over Chinese society.

China is seeing a rise in income and living standards, not liberalisation. You may have witnessed events in Hong Kong recently.

Or maybe not. We will, in our lifetimes, see the takeover of Taiwan. I'm not sure how this will play out, but I can guarantee you Xi has people working on it as we speak.

Be hopeful for rising living standards, but don't ever pretend that China is anything other than a state capitalist economy, and far less liberal than a decade a go. The trajectory is going in the opposite direction to the one you have hope for.

Remember, you once had hope for the US invasion of Afghanistan.

Quote:

China is seeing a rise in income and living standards, not liberalisation.

China is seeing a rise in income and living standards because of liberalisation. Dramatic, revolutionary liberalisation. You cannot see the wood for the trees, and you are imposing a binary dichotomy on a transition.

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 1:00pm:

Quote: China is seeing a rise in income and living standards, not liberalisation. China is seeing a rise in income and living standards because of liberalisation. Dramatic, revolutionary liberalisation. You cannot see the wood for the trees, and you are imposing a binary dichotomy on a transition.

You mentioned liberalism. I don't think anyone sees the CCP as transitioning towards that. None. You're the last - a bastion of celebratory post-Cold War triumphalists that once lived on the pages of the Age, the SMH, and all those talking heads on cable - for about five minutes.

It's as if you've slept through the past twenty years. Trump, Brexit, the lot.

The era of Francis Fukoyama is long gone. The fall of Kabul is a new chapter. China's not taking over any time soon, but the West's days of going in are gone. Now it's China's turn.

If you think China could possibly turn the surveillance infrastructure it's rolling out around the world into liberalism, you're not dreaming, oh no.

Youre hallucinating.

Private enterprise now accounts for 60% of China's GDP. In 1960, they were literally starving to death under communism. I challenge you to find a faster social upheaval in all of world history.

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 1:00pm:

Quote: China is seeing a rise in income and living standards, not liberalisation. China is seeing a rise in income and living standards because of liberalisation. Dramatic, revolutionary liberalisation.

Well it was, at least...

The regime is not so much harvesting grain as billionaires and companies for their money.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 2:31pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 1:00pm: Quote: China is seeing a rise in income and living standards, not liberalisation. China is seeing a rise in income and living standards because of liberalisation. Dramatic, revolutionary liberalisation. Well it was, at least... The regime is not so much harvesting grain as billionaires and companies for their money.

China is creating a new middle class of hundreds of millions of people. It is an unprecedented transition both in scale and speed.

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 2:40pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 2:31pm: freediver wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 1:00pm: Quote: China is seeing a rise in income and living standards, not liberalisation. China is seeing a rise in income and living standards because of liberalisation. Dramatic, revolutionary liberalisation. Well it was, at least... The regime is not so much harvesting grain as billionaires and companies for their money. China is creating a new middle class of hundreds of millions of people. It is an unprecedented transition both in scale and speed.

Just ask Jack Ma.

No need. It is on wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ma

Ma is a strong proponent of an open and market-driven economy.

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 2:43pm:

No need. It is on wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ma Ma is a strong proponent of an open and market-driven economy.

I bet he is... Probably likes the idea of keeping his money and companies as well.

So does the CCP. Nobody likes communism any more. Even the rich can smell the corpses.

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 2:53pm:

So does the CCP. Nobody likes communism any more. Even the rich can smell the corpses.

Money... Its a gas. Share it fairly but keep your hands of my stash.

"a Chinese billionaire dies every 40 days...unnatural deaths have taken the lives of 72 mainland billionaires over the past 8 years...15 were murdered, 17 committed suicide, 7 died from accidents and 19 from illness. 14 were executed. (Welcome to China.)"
Rob Henderson
@robkhenderson

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 2:22pm:

Private enterprise now accounts for 60% of China's GDP. In 1960, they were literally starving to death under communism. I challenge you to find a faster social upheaval in all of world history.

We know all that. We're not talking about economic development. You're spruiking the proposal that China is liberalising.

Since you've been gone, the internet has been rolled out, Google and Facebook have been banned, the CCP have developed their own platforms and taken over control of the internet.

They've arrested all opponents, detained entire populations, and they're now cracking down on all the billionaire princelings who've dared say a word out of line.

This contradicts your entire neoliberal doctrine that capitalism would inevitably bring liberty to China.

On the contrary, the CCP are talking about an alternative  model -  socialism (capitalism) with Chinese characteristics.

We've tried warning you, FD. No, we said, Uncle can't make progress in Iraq or Afghanistan. No, populations won't make rational political decisions just because they have free trade and a vote. No, the world is not evolving towards a rational, enlightened telos; far from it.

Do you think it might be time to start listening?

Quote:

We're not talking about economic development.

Yes we are. Economic liberalisation is liberalisation. It won't be long before the little princes are demanding all sorts of other rights. You can't have one without the other.

Ask any poor person and the right to make and hold onto some money ranks above just about everything except the right to life, and is often the same thing. We like to talk about the right to sodomise each other and take a crap on the white house lawn, but that is only because we take these more fundamental rights for granted. This is why the CCP is doing so well in the propaganda department. They are making the important moves first.

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 3:23pm:

Quote: We're not talking about economic development. It won't be long before the little princes are demanding all sorts of other rights.

They already are.

Just ask Jack Ma.

That's why some of them are waking up wearing cement boots at the bottom of the Yangtse.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 3:36pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 3:23pm: Quote: We're not talking about economic development. It won't be long before the little princes are demanding all sorts of other rights. They already are. Just ask Jack Ma. That's why some of them are waking up wearing cement boots at the bottom of the Yangtse.

Cement boots, behind bars, ankle bracelets in home detention or just stopped expressing themselves altogether. The CCP has gone backwards on liberalism.

As pay and conditions have gone up, human rights have gone down. If you put GDP per capita on a graph next to political detentions, you'd see a steady rise; perfect correlation.

If you cant have one without the other, FD, there go your "principles". The situation in China blows your case out of the water.

Russia - another example. While Putin shifts round the fossil fuel and mineral wealth, he's detaining his political opponents and building billion dollar palaces. For Putin, like the CCP, this is branded as an alternative political-economic model to liberal democracy. Unlike the CCP, Putin throws a healthy dose of religion in, but the rivals to the West are role models to the countries they influence.

Trump, of course, parotted Putin's model perfectly. That's what MAGA is - the protectionists and the Bible Belt in a handshake deal, united under an authoritarian cult of personality. The Republican party effectively has no liberal democrats left at the federal level.

You, of course, have kept devoutly mum on Trump for the past five years. Trump signals the dearth of liberal democracy on the formerly Reaganite US right. You've spent the last five years evading this shift.

Perhaps it's time you woke up.

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 5:19pm:

As pay and conditions have gone up, human rights have gone down. If you put GDP per capita on a graph next to political detentions, you'd see a steady rise; perfect correlation.

And add to that how much corruption a state tolerates ... then we're not talking about getting paid, but how much an apparatchik must get paid; before those who earned it may get paid.

Quote:

human rights have gone down

Do you have any evidence of this?

Between 1958 and 1961, between 15 and 55 million Chinese were denied the right to life. Not deliberately of course. Bureaucratic error. This is what Athos means by merit.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 5:35pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:19pm: As pay and conditions have gone up, human rights have gone down. If you put GDP per capita on a graph next to political detentions, you'd see a steady rise; perfect correlation. And add to that how much corruption a state tolerates ... then we're not talking about getting paid, but how much an apparatchik must get paid; before those who earned it may get paid.

The CCP recently retaliated against a big, new Uber-style service that made the decision to float on the New York stock exchange.

The CCP put them out of business. A billion-dollar taxi service could have been a Chinese global brand - punished for not playing by the CCP rules.

Economic growth in China comes down to its population, not its economic policies.The CCP retards growth precisely because it won't allow liberalisation.

But that's the price they're prepared to pay. No Chinese people I've talked to can imagine things changing. There are no incentives in a system like that to liberalise. Examples like Ma frighten everyone and keep things tight.

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 5:46pm:

Quote: human rights have gone down Do you have any evidence of this? Between 1958 and 1961, between 15 and 55 million Chinese were denied the right to life. Not deliberately of course. Bureaucratic error. This is what Athos means by merit.

'denied the right to life'?

It's worse than that he's been denied the right to life, Jim, denied the right to life, Jim, to Life Jim, to life Jim, to Life Jim... LIFE

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 5:46pm:

Quote: human rights have gone down Do you have any evidence of this? Between 1958 and 1961, between 15 and 55 million Chinese were denied the right to life. Not deliberately of course. Bureaucratic error. This is what Athos means by merit.

You have enough evidence, you don't need mine.

Stop quibbling. If you're trying to pretend China is on some steady path of liberal reform, you're more of a spineless apologist than I thought.

Sticking up for the Saudis is bad enough (for someone so loathsome of Islam). But promoting the reversal of the one-child policy as an example of Freeeeedom?

Come come, dear, you've had better days. Your reference to Athos shows you have a pretty good idea what trajectory China's on.

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 5:58pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:35pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:19pm: As pay and conditions have gone up, human rights have gone down. If you put GDP per capita on a graph next to political detentions, you'd see a steady rise; perfect correlation. And add to that how much corruption a state tolerates ... then we're not talking about getting paid, but how much an apparatchik must get paid; before those who earned it may get paid. The CCP recently retaliated against a big, new Uber-style service that made the decision to float on the New York stock exchange. The CCP put them out of business. A billion-dollar taxi service could have been a Chinese global brand - punished for not playing by the CCP rules. Economic growth in China comes down to its population, not its economic policies.The CCP retards growth precisely because it won't allow liberalisation. But that's the price they're prepared to pay. No Chinese people I've talked to can imagine things changing. There are no incentives in a system like that to liberalise. Examples like Ma frighten everyone and keep things tight.

And just to make the point, the regime published images as a deadly warning to Ma.

Jack Ma's direct English-name translation is Cloud Horse (Or Horse Cloud if you're eastern).

The regime sent out messages to him with (literally) a cloud shaped like a horse... A reminder (apparently immediately translated within Asian sensibility), that Jack the Ma, like a cloud, can evaporate in an instant.

Quote:

If you're trying to pretend China is on some steady path of liberal reform

I wouldn't say steady.


Quote:

Economic growth in China comes down to its population, not its economic policies.The CCP retards growth precisely because it won't allow liberalisation.

The growth you see is a result of rapid economic liberalisation. Population is only part of it. You complain about them destroying a company, but not long ago they sent up to 55 million people to the grave to show their dedication to communism.

60% of their GDP comes from private enterprise, which did not exist in China until recently.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 6:10pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:58pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:35pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:19pm: As pay and conditions have gone up, human rights have gone down. If you put GDP per capita on a graph next to political detentions, you'd see a steady rise; perfect correlation. And add to that how much corruption a state tolerates ... then we're not talking about getting paid, but how much an apparatchik must get paid; before those who earned it may get paid. The CCP recently retaliated against a big, new Uber-style service that made the decision to float on the New York stock exchange. The CCP put them out of business. A billion-dollar taxi service could have been a Chinese global brand - punished for not playing by the CCP rules. Economic growth in China comes down to its population, not its economic policies.The CCP retards growth precisely because it won't allow liberalisation. But that's the price they're prepared to pay. No Chinese people I've talked to can imagine things changing. There are no incentives in a system like that to liberalise. Examples like Ma frighten everyone and keep things tight. And just to make the point, the regime published images as a deadly warning to Ma. Jack Ma's direct English-name translation is Cloud Horse (Or Horse Cloud if you're eastern). The regime sent out messages to him with (literally) a cloud shaped like a horse... A reminder (apparently immediately translated within Asian sensibility), that Jack the Ma, like a cloud, can evaporate in an instant.

Wow. The art of war, internecine Mandarin politicking for the 21st century.

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 6:12pm:

Quote: If you're trying to pretend China is on some steady path of liberal reform I wouldn't say steady.

Neither would I.

The word: retrogressive, comes to mind.

Deng would (do a half) turn in his urn.

Mao would do a cartwheel.

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 6:23pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:10pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:58pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:35pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:19pm: As pay and conditions have gone up, human rights have gone down. If you put GDP per capita on a graph next to political detentions, you'd see a steady rise; perfect correlation. And add to that how much corruption a state tolerates ... then we're not talking about getting paid, but how much an apparatchik must get paid; before those who earned it may get paid. The CCP recently retaliated against a big, new Uber-style service that made the decision to float on the New York stock exchange. The CCP put them out of business. A billion-dollar taxi service could have been a Chinese global brand - punished for not playing by the CCP rules. Economic growth in China comes down to its population, not its economic policies.The CCP retards growth precisely because it won't allow liberalisation. But that's the price they're prepared to pay. No Chinese people I've talked to can imagine things changing. There are no incentives in a system like that to liberalise. Examples like Ma frighten everyone and keep things tight. And just to make the point, the regime published images as a deadly warning to Ma. Jack Ma's direct English-name translation is Cloud Horse (Or Horse Cloud if you're eastern). The regime sent out messages to him with (literally) a cloud shaped like a horse... A reminder (apparently immediately translated within Asian sensibility), that Jack the Ma, like a cloud, can evaporate in an instant. Wow. The art of war, internecine Mandarin politicking for the 21st century.

Yes. And it's proof positive that our primate instinct for hierarchy, and the striving for high-status within it, has not escaped our DNA.

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 6:12pm:

Quote: If you're trying to pretend China is on some steady path of liberal reform I wouldn't say steady. [quote]Economic growth in China comes down to its population, not its economic policies.The CCP retards growth precisely because it won't allow liberalisation.

The growth you see is a result of rapid economic liberalisation. Population is only part of it. You complain about them destroying a company, but not long ago they sent up to 55 million people to the grave to show their dedication to communism.

60% of their GDP comes from private enterprise, which did not exist in China until recently.[/quote]

Sorry, what does GDP have to do with human rights?

I'd hazard the Saudis have a larger private sector and still behead their political opponents with surgical bone saws in broad daylight. 

You'd probably have a better case if you wanted to present capitalism as a force for liberalism with the Saudis, but then you'd be stuck trying to defend their human rights record too.

But do you know? We wouldn't be having this debate if you didn't try to make out the Taliban was responsible for Sept 11 during one of your more absolutist pronouncements.

Most of us are happy to accept that things are complicated. You prefer to see the West as a beacon of shining light, shadowed only by the backward forces of Islam, socialism and tintedness.

The last five years of US politics, at the very least, should show you just how impossible this vision is. Not only have the shadows come from white supremacism, authoritarianism and the religious right within, Islamist outfits like the Taliban have gone almost unnoticed.

Now, we'll be watching them join forces with Russia and China, testing the West where it's most sensitive. As China quietly builds up its strength, as Putin quietly sows the seeds of resentment, and as the white supremacists on this board and elsewhere drum up a cacophony of fear and loathing to drown out any semblance of reason or rational informed debate, we'll all see that quaint, post-Cold War vision of American-led capitalism saving the world fade into a distant memory.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 6:27pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:23pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:10pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:58pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:35pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:19pm: As pay and conditions have gone up, human rights have gone down. If you put GDP per capita on a graph next to political detentions, you'd see a steady rise; perfect correlation. And add to that how much corruption a state tolerates ... then we're not talking about getting paid, but how much an apparatchik must get paid; before those who earned it may get paid. The CCP recently retaliated against a big, new Uber-style service that made the decision to float on the New York stock exchange. The CCP put them out of business. A billion-dollar taxi service could have been a Chinese global brand - punished for not playing by the CCP rules. Economic growth in China comes down to its population, not its economic policies.The CCP retards growth precisely because it won't allow liberalisation. But that's the price they're prepared to pay. No Chinese people I've talked to can imagine things changing. There are no incentives in a system like that to liberalise. Examples like Ma frighten everyone and keep things tight. And just to make the point, the regime published images as a deadly warning to Ma. Jack Ma's direct English-name translation is Cloud Horse (Or Horse Cloud if you're eastern). The regime sent out messages to him with (literally) a cloud shaped like a horse... A reminder (apparently immediately translated within Asian sensibility), that Jack the Ma, like a cloud, can evaporate in an instant. Wow. The art of war, internecine Mandarin politicking for the 21st century. Yes. And it's proof positive that our primate instinct for hierarchy, and the striving for high-status within it, has not escaped our DNA.

Well, that's a rather Chinese argument, but yes.

I'm surprised Aquascoot didn't say that.

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 6:12pm:

Quote: If you're trying to pretend China is on some steady path of liberal reform I wouldn't say steady.

It's steady, they reformed Hong Kong into true patriotism. The liberal part is almost unrecognisably loyal and so Xi, the resemblance is unstoppable.

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 6:59pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:27pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:23pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:10pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:58pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:35pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:19pm: As pay and conditions have gone up, human rights have gone down. If you put GDP per capita on a graph next to political detentions, you'd see a steady rise; perfect correlation. And add to that how much corruption a state tolerates ... then we're not talking about getting paid, but how much an apparatchik must get paid; before those who earned it may get paid. The CCP recently retaliated against a big, new Uber-style service that made the decision to float on the New York stock exchange. The CCP put them out of business. A billion-dollar taxi service could have been a Chinese global brand - punished for not playing by the CCP rules. Economic growth in China comes down to its population, not its economic policies.The CCP retards growth precisely because it won't allow liberalisation. But that's the price they're prepared to pay. No Chinese people I've talked to can imagine things changing. There are no incentives in a system like that to liberalise. Examples like Ma frighten everyone and keep things tight. And just to make the point, the regime published images as a deadly warning to Ma. Jack Ma's direct English-name translation is Cloud Horse (Or Horse Cloud if you're eastern). The regime sent out messages to him with (literally) a cloud shaped like a horse... A reminder (apparently immediately translated within Asian sensibility), that Jack the Ma, like a cloud, can evaporate in an instant. Wow. The art of war, internecine Mandarin politicking for the 21st century. Yes. And it's proof positive that our primate instinct for hierarchy, and the striving for high-status within it, has not escaped our DNA. Well, that's a rather Chinese argument, but yes. I'm surprised Aquascoot didn't say that.

Well, on prophecy: a clock is right twice a day. On truth: Any fool can tell you the sun will rise in the east.

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 6:53pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:12pm: Quote: If you're trying to pretend China is on some steady path of liberal reform I wouldn't say steady. [quote]Economic growth in China comes down to its population, not its economic policies.The CCP retards growth precisely because it won't allow liberalisation. The growth you see is a result of rapid economic liberalisation. Population is only part of it. You complain about them destroying a company, but not long ago they sent up to 55 million people to the grave to show their dedication to communism. 60% of their GDP comes from private enterprise, which did not exist in China until recently.

Sorry, what does GDP have to do with human rights?

I'd hazard the Saudis have a larger private sector and still behead their political opponents with surgical bone saws in broad daylight. 

You'd probably have a better case if you wanted to present capitalism as a force for liberalism with the Saudis, but then you'd be stuck trying to defend their human rights record too.

But do you know? We wouldn't be having this debate if you didn't try to make out the Taliban was responsible for Sept 11 during one of your more absolutist pronouncements.

Most of us are happy to accept that things are complicated. You prefer to see the West as a beacon of shining light, shadowed only by the backward forces of Islam, socialism and tintedness.

The last five years of US politics, at the very least, should show you just how impossible this vision is. Not only have the shadows come from white supremacism, authoritarianism and the religious right within, Islamist outfits like the Taliban have gone almost unnoticed.

Now, we'll be watching them join forces with Russia and China, testing the West where it's most sensitive. As China quietly builds up its strength, as Putin quietly sows the seeds of resentment, and as the white supremacists on this board and elsewhere drum up a cacophony of fear and loathing to drown out any semblance of reason or rational informed debate, we'll all see that quaint, post-Cold War vision of American-led capitalism saving the world fade into a distant memory.
[/quote]

China can't rely on oil reserves to lift the starving peasants out of poverty. Instead they have to rely on economic liberalism.

GDP has a lot to do with human rights. Why do you think human rights are so strongly correlated with high GDP? Yes, this is a test of your ability to see the wood, despite all the trees in the way. Open your eyes.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 7:10pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:59pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:27pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:23pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:10pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:58pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:35pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:19pm: As pay and conditions have gone up, human rights have gone down. If you put GDP per capita on a graph next to political detentions, you'd see a steady rise; perfect correlation. And add to that how much corruption a state tolerates ... then we're not talking about getting paid, but how much an apparatchik must get paid; before those who earned it may get paid. The CCP recently retaliated against a big, new Uber-style service that made the decision to float on the New York stock exchange. The CCP put them out of business. A billion-dollar taxi service could have been a Chinese global brand - punished for not playing by the CCP rules. Economic growth in China comes down to its population, not its economic policies.The CCP retards growth precisely because it won't allow liberalisation. But that's the price they're prepared to pay. No Chinese people I've talked to can imagine things changing. There are no incentives in a system like that to liberalise. Examples like Ma frighten everyone and keep things tight. And just to make the point, the regime published images as a deadly warning to Ma. Jack Ma's direct English-name translation is Cloud Horse (Or Horse Cloud if you're eastern). The regime sent out messages to him with (literally) a cloud shaped like a horse... A reminder (apparently immediately translated within Asian sensibility), that Jack the Ma, like a cloud, can evaporate in an instant. Wow. The art of war, internecine Mandarin politicking for the 21st century. Yes. And it's proof positive that our primate instinct for hierarchy, and the striving for high-status within it, has not escaped our DNA. Well, that's a rather Chinese argument, but yes. I'm surprised Aquascoot didn't say that. Well, on prophecy: a clock is right twice a day. On truth: Any fool can tell you the sun will rise in the east.

The revolution rises in the east
Made glorious by the sun, Marx, Lenin, our beloved Chairman Mao
Through sound revolutionary principles, the people come together
Like steel in a furnace, forged by fire
Tempered by the Party
Father, mother, brother, sister,
Unite for the revolution!

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 9:15pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 7:10pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:59pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:27pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:23pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:10pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:58pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:35pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:19pm: As pay and conditions have gone up, human rights have gone down. If you put GDP per capita on a graph next to political detentions, you'd see a steady rise; perfect correlation. And add to that how much corruption a state tolerates ... then we're not talking about getting paid, but how much an apparatchik must get paid; before those who earned it may get paid. The CCP recently retaliated against a big, new Uber-style service that made the decision to float on the New York stock exchange. The CCP put them out of business. A billion-dollar taxi service could have been a Chinese global brand - punished for not playing by the CCP rules. Economic growth in China comes down to its population, not its economic policies.The CCP retards growth precisely because it won't allow liberalisation. But that's the price they're prepared to pay. No Chinese people I've talked to can imagine things changing. There are no incentives in a system like that to liberalise. Examples like Ma frighten everyone and keep things tight. And just to make the point, the regime published images as a deadly warning to Ma. Jack Ma's direct English-name translation is Cloud Horse (Or Horse Cloud if you're eastern). The regime sent out messages to him with (literally) a cloud shaped like a horse... A reminder (apparently immediately translated within Asian sensibility), that Jack the Ma, like a cloud, can evaporate in an instant. Wow. The art of war, internecine Mandarin politicking for the 21st century. Yes. And it's proof positive that our primate instinct for hierarchy, and the striving for high-status within it, has not escaped our DNA. Well, that's a rather Chinese argument, but yes. I'm surprised Aquascoot didn't say that. Well, on prophecy: a clock is right twice a day. On truth: Any fool can tell you the sun will rise in the east. The revolution rises in the east Made glorious by the sun, Marx, Lenin, our beloved Chairman Mao Through sound revolutionary principles, the people come together Like steel in a furnace, forged by fire Tempered by the Party Father, mother, brother, sister, Unite for the revolution!

You are gagging for a banana.

Bertie wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 9:17pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 9:15pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 7:10pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:59pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:27pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:23pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:10pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:58pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:35pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 5:19pm: As pay and conditions have gone up, human rights have gone down. If you put GDP per capita on a graph next to political detentions, you'd see a steady rise; perfect correlation. And add to that how much corruption a state tolerates ... then we're not talking about getting paid, but how much an apparatchik must get paid; before those who earned it may get paid. The CCP recently retaliated against a big, new Uber-style service that made the decision to float on the New York stock exchange. The CCP put them out of business. A billion-dollar taxi service could have been a Chinese global brand - punished for not playing by the CCP rules. Economic growth in China comes down to its population, not its economic policies.The CCP retards growth precisely because it won't allow liberalisation. But that's the price they're prepared to pay. No Chinese people I've talked to can imagine things changing. There are no incentives in a system like that to liberalise. Examples like Ma frighten everyone and keep things tight. And just to make the point, the regime published images as a deadly warning to Ma. Jack Ma's direct English-name translation is Cloud Horse (Or Horse Cloud if you're eastern). The regime sent out messages to him with (literally) a cloud shaped like a horse... A reminder (apparently immediately translated within Asian sensibility), that Jack the Ma, like a cloud, can evaporate in an instant. Wow. The art of war, internecine Mandarin politicking for the 21st century. Yes. And it's proof positive that our primate instinct for hierarchy, and the striving for high-status within it, has not escaped our DNA. Well, that's a rather Chinese argument, but yes. I'm surprised Aquascoot didn't say that. Well, on prophecy: a clock is right twice a day. On truth: Any fool can tell you the sun will rise in the east. The revolution rises in the east Made glorious by the sun, Marx, Lenin, our beloved Chairman Mao Through sound revolutionary principles, the people come together Like steel in a furnace, forged by fire Tempered by the Party Father, mother, brother, sister, Unite for the revolution! You are gagging for a banana.

Defeat foreign imperialist enemies!

Unite to fight old boy class traitors!

---

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 9:15pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:53pm: freediver wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:12pm: Quote: If you're trying to pretend China is on some steady path of liberal reform I wouldn't say steady. [quote]Economic growth in China comes down to its population, not its economic policies.The CCP retards growth precisely because it won't allow liberalisation. The growth you see is a result of rapid economic liberalisation. Population is only part of it. You complain about them destroying a company, but not long ago they sent up to 55 million people to the grave to show their dedication to communism. 60% of their GDP comes from private enterprise, which did not exist in China until recently. Sorry, what does GDP have to do with human rights? I'd hazard the Saudis have a larger private sector and still behead their political opponents with surgical bone saws in broad daylight.  You'd probably have a better case if you wanted to present capitalism as a force for liberalism with the Saudis, but then you'd be stuck trying to defend their human rights record too. But do you know? We wouldn't be having this debate if you didn't try to make out the Taliban was responsible for Sept 11 during one of your more absolutist pronouncements. Most of us are happy to accept that things are complicated. You prefer to see the West as a beacon of shining light, shadowed only by the backward forces of Islam, socialism and tintedness. The last five years of US politics, at the very least, should show you just how impossible this vision is. Not only have the shadows come from white supremacism, authoritarianism and the religious right within, Islamist outfits like the Taliban have gone almost unnoticed. Now, we'll be watching them join forces with Russia and China, testing the West where it's most sensitive. As China quietly builds up its strength, as Putin quietly sows the seeds of resentment, and as the white supremacists on this board and elsewhere drum up a cacophony of fear and loathing to drown out any semblance of reason or rational informed debate, we'll all see that quaint, post-Cold War vision of American-led capitalism saving the world fade into a distant memory.

China can't rely on oil reserves to lift the starving peasants out of poverty. Instead they have to rely on economic liberalism.

GDP has a lot to do with human rights. Why do you think human rights are so strongly correlated with high GDP? Yes, this is a test of your ability to see the wood, despite all the trees in the way. Open your eyes.[/quote]

The only thing you're missing is the Ministry of Propaganda's signature at the bottom of your post. 

No one denies you can't have human rights without economic development. China is currently developing economically, and has no intention whatsoever of allowing individual human rights. Its government holds this up as its political model: collective economic development at the expense of individual liberty.

On the measure of GDP growth, China is currently surpassing the US. The contrasting covid responses of the two countries gives us some insight into how the two political systems operate when it comes to individual liberty and economic growth.

Ask the old boy for a banana. He's keen to give you one.

Will you take it?

Saudis like to use a big sword...

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 12:13am:

Saudis like to use a big sword...

The old boy prefers a banana.

You?

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 11:35pm:

The only thing you're missing is the Ministry of Propaganda's signature at the bottom of your post.  No one denies you can't have human rights without economic development. China is currently developing economically, and has no intention whatsoever of allowing individual human rights. Its government holds this up as its political model: collective economic development at the expense of individual liberty.

And the regime has no intention of continuing the experiement Deng began.

Liberty and freedom for the people would end the regime (as Gorbachev discovered with the USSR).

English language lessons and examinations are being ended, as competency with English has proved to be a route for the Chinese mind to escape regime propaganda.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 11:52am:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 11:35pm: The only thing you're missing is the Ministry of Propaganda's signature at the bottom of your post.  No one denies you can't have human rights without economic development. China is currently developing economically, and has no intention whatsoever of allowing individual human rights. Its government holds this up as its political model: collective economic development at the expense of individual liberty. And the regime has no intention of continuing the experiement Deng began. Liberty and freedom for the people would end the regime (as Gorbachev discovered with the USSR). English language lessons and examinations are being ended, as competency with English has proved to be a route for the Chinese mind to escape regime propaganda.

Quote:

If English was not a compulsory main subject, students could spend more time improving their education in areas such as music, sports and arts and lay more emphasis on cultivating independent thinking and innovative capabilities, Xu said.

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202103/1217396.shtml

Cultivating independent thinking and innovative capabilities, eh?

Four rivers meet in the dam.
Father, mother, son, daughter.
Socialist thinking makes the people strong!
Long live Chairman Xi.

Karnal wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 1:59pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 11:52am: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 11:35pm: The only thing you're missing is the Ministry of Propaganda's signature at the bottom of your post.  No one denies you can't have human rights without economic development. China is currently developing economically, and has no intention whatsoever of allowing individual human rights. Its government holds this up as its political model: collective economic development at the expense of individual liberty. And the regime has no intention of continuing the experiement Deng began. Liberty and freedom for the people would end the regime (as Gorbachev discovered with the USSR). English language lessons and examinations are being ended, as competency with English has proved to be a route for the Chinese mind to escape regime propaganda. Quote: If English was not a compulsory main subject, students could spend more time improving their education in areas such as music, sports and arts and lay more emphasis on cultivating independent thinking and innovative capabilities, Xu said. https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202103/1217396.shtml Cultivating independent thinking and innovative capabilities, eh?

Yes, ironic, given English lessons have been replaced with learning by rote 'The Thoughts of Xi Jinping'.

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 11:35pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 9:15pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:53pm: freediver wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:12pm: Quote: If you're trying to pretend China is on some steady path of liberal reform I wouldn't say steady. [quote]Economic growth in China comes down to its population, not its economic policies.The CCP retards growth precisely because it won't allow liberalisation. The growth you see is a result of rapid economic liberalisation. Population is only part of it. You complain about them destroying a company, but not long ago they sent up to 55 million people to the grave to show their dedication to communism. 60% of their GDP comes from private enterprise, which did not exist in China until recently. Sorry, what does GDP have to do with human rights? I'd hazard the Saudis have a larger private sector and still behead their political opponents with surgical bone saws in broad daylight.  You'd probably have a better case if you wanted to present capitalism as a force for liberalism with the Saudis, but then you'd be stuck trying to defend their human rights record too. But do you know? We wouldn't be having this debate if you didn't try to make out the Taliban was responsible for Sept 11 during one of your more absolutist pronouncements. Most of us are happy to accept that things are complicated. You prefer to see the West as a beacon of shining light, shadowed only by the backward forces of Islam, socialism and tintedness. The last five years of US politics, at the very least, should show you just how impossible this vision is. Not only have the shadows come from white supremacism, authoritarianism and the religious right within, Islamist outfits like the Taliban have gone almost unnoticed. Now, we'll be watching them join forces with Russia and China, testing the West where it's most sensitive. As China quietly builds up its strength, as Putin quietly sows the seeds of resentment, and as the white supremacists on this board and elsewhere drum up a cacophony of fear and loathing to drown out any semblance of reason or rational informed debate, we'll all see that quaint, post-Cold War vision of American-led capitalism saving the world fade into a distant memory. China can't rely on oil reserves to lift the starving peasants out of poverty. Instead they have to rely on economic liberalism. GDP has a lot to do with human rights. Why do you think human rights are so strongly correlated with high GDP? Yes, this is a test of your ability to see the wood, despite all the trees in the way. Open your eyes.

The only thing you're missing is the Ministry of Propaganda's signature at the bottom of your post. 

No one denies you can't have human rights without economic development. China is currently developing economically, and has no intention whatsoever of allowing individual human rights. Its government holds this up as its political model: collective economic development at the expense of individual liberty.

On the measure of GDP growth, China is currently surpassing the US. The contrasting covid responses of the two countries gives us some insight into how the two political systems operate when it comes to individual liberty and economic growth.

Ask the old boy for a banana. He's keen to give you one.

Will you take it? [/quote]

Why do you think human rights are so strongly correlated with high GDP? Yes, this is a test of your ability to see the wood, despite all the trees in the way. Open your eyes.

freediver wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 5:20pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 11:35pm: freediver wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 9:15pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:53pm: freediver wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:12pm: Quote: If you're trying to pretend China is on some steady path of liberal reform I wouldn't say steady. [quote]Economic growth in China comes down to its population, not its economic policies.The CCP retards growth precisely because it won't allow liberalisation. The growth you see is a result of rapid economic liberalisation. Population is only part of it. You complain about them destroying a company, but not long ago they sent up to 55 million people to the grave to show their dedication to communism. 60% of their GDP comes from private enterprise, which did not exist in China until recently. Sorry, what does GDP have to do with human rights? I'd hazard the Saudis have a larger private sector and still behead their political opponents with surgical bone saws in broad daylight.  You'd probably have a better case if you wanted to present capitalism as a force for liberalism with the Saudis, but then you'd be stuck trying to defend their human rights record too. But do you know? We wouldn't be having this debate if you didn't try to make out the Taliban was responsible for Sept 11 during one of your more absolutist pronouncements. Most of us are happy to accept that things are complicated. You prefer to see the West as a beacon of shining light, shadowed only by the backward forces of Islam, socialism and tintedness. The last five years of US politics, at the very least, should show you just how impossible this vision is. Not only have the shadows come from white supremacism, authoritarianism and the religious right within, Islamist outfits like the Taliban have gone almost unnoticed. Now, we'll be watching them join forces with Russia and China, testing the West where it's most sensitive. As China quietly builds up its strength, as Putin quietly sows the seeds of resentment, and as the white supremacists on this board and elsewhere drum up a cacophony of fear and loathing to drown out any semblance of reason or rational informed debate, we'll all see that quaint, post-Cold War vision of American-led capitalism saving the world fade into a distant memory. China can't rely on oil reserves to lift the starving peasants out of poverty. Instead they have to rely on economic liberalism. GDP has a lot to do with human rights. Why do you think human rights are so strongly correlated with high GDP? Yes, this is a test of your ability to see the wood, despite all the trees in the way. Open your eyes. The only thing you're missing is the Ministry of Propaganda's signature at the bottom of your post.  No one denies you can't have human rights without economic development. China is currently developing economically, and has no intention whatsoever of allowing individual human rights. Its government holds this up as its political model: collective economic development at the expense of individual liberty. On the measure of GDP growth, China is currently surpassing the US. The contrasting covid responses of the two countries gives us some insight into how the two political systems operate when it comes to individual liberty and economic growth. Ask the old boy for a banana. He's keen to give you one. Will you take it?

Why do you think human rights are so strongly correlated with high GDP? Yes, this is a test of your ability to see the wood, despite all the trees in the way. Open your eyes.[/quote]

How are human rights in Saudi Arabia, FD?

I'm curious. I'm keen to hear what you think.

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2021 at 6:53pm:

You prefer to see the West as a beacon of shining light, shadowed only by the backward forces of Islam, socialism and tintedness.

Are these forces allied to each other? Islam and socialism are not backward? Is 'tinted' backward or progressive? You are mixing things up faster than a cups-and-ball trickster/apologist.

Please explain.


https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1429625109191532545

Bertie wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 5:43pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:53pm: You prefer to see the West as a beacon of shining light, shadowed only by the backward forces of Islam, socialism and tintedness. Are these forces allied to each other? Islam and socialism are not backward? Is 'tinted' backward or progressive? You are mixing things up faster than a cups-and-ball trickster/apologist. Please explain. https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1429625109191532545

Agatha? Is that you, dear? Ee-gad, what have they done with you?

You haven't been visiting Sir Reggie and the Foreign Office boys over in Turkey again, have you?

I'd be willing to wager Mustapha Khunt's had his hand in this. If you want my advice, dear, stay away from the gin.

He didn't leave you his calling card by any chance?

Karnal wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 5:57pm:

Bertie wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:43pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:53pm: You prefer to see the West as a beacon of shining light, shadowed only by the backward forces of Islam, socialism and tintedness. Are these forces allied to each other? Islam and socialism are not backward? Is 'tinted' backward or progressive? You are mixing things up faster than a cups-and-ball trickster/apologist. Please explain. https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1429625109191532545 Agatha? Is that you, dear? Ee-gad, what have they done with you? You haven't been visiting Sir Reggie and the Foreign Office boys over in Turkey again, have you? If you want my advice, dear, stay away from the gin.

Oh, so we have to wait for FD to answer Brian's question first - and that's now your policy as well.

Got it.

Karnal wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 5:57pm:

Bertie wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:43pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:53pm: You prefer to see the West as a beacon of shining light, shadowed only by the backward forces of Islam, socialism and tintedness. Are these forces allied to each other? Islam and socialism are not backward? Is 'tinted' backward or progressive? You are mixing things up faster than a cups-and-ball trickster/apologist. Please explain. https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1429625109191532545 Agatha? Is that you, dear? Ee-gad, what have they done with you?

Bertie: His atavistic reincarnation of a dead altar boy.

Bertie wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 6:01pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:57pm: Bertie wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:43pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:53pm: You prefer to see the West as a beacon of shining light, shadowed only by the backward forces of Islam, socialism and tintedness. Are these forces allied to each other? Islam and socialism are not backward? Is 'tinted' backward or progressive? You are mixing things up faster than a cups-and-ball trickster/apologist. Please explain. https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1429625109191532545 Agatha? Is that you, dear? Ee-gad, what have they done with you? You haven't been visiting Sir Reggie and the Foreign Office boys over in Turkey again, have you? If you want my advice, dear, stay away from the gin. Oh, so we have to wait for FD to answer Brian's question first - and that's now your policy as well. Got it.

Never trust a man with "policies". It served us in the Foreign Office, and it applies equally well today.

We always knew you had a bit of the old Bertie in you, dear. What made you finally make the switch?

Don't tell me - man by the name of Mustapha Khunt. That cad's crooned his way through every aged spinster from here to Timbuktu.

Don't bother with the card, dear, he won't take my calls. Blighter still owes me twenty pounds for that Danish chap I put him onto. Now what was his name?

Sore End. Frightful bore, but at least he could drink.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 6:05pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:57pm: Bertie wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:43pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:53pm: You prefer to see the West as a beacon of shining light, shadowed only by the backward forces of Islam, socialism and tintedness. Are these forces allied to each other? Islam and socialism are not backward? Is 'tinted' backward or progressive? You are mixing things up faster than a cups-and-ball trickster/apologist. Please explain. https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1429625109191532545 Agatha? Is that you, dear? Ee-gad, what have they done with you? Bertie: His atavistic reincarnation of a dead altar boy.

Oh, no signs of life, dear. They left him with the corpse.

Still, take him out of his trunk and he makes a great party trick. Sit him on your knee, drink a glass of water and he talks back at you.

He's a charm to watch, the boys love it. How he works up the exasperation I'll never know.

That wooden mouth clicks away and the colour never fades from his cheeks. The toupe's a hoot.

We've been thinking of trying a fez on him. You know, mix it up a bit.

Karnal wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 6:37pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 6:05pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:57pm: Bertie wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:43pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:53pm: You prefer to see the West as a beacon of shining light, shadowed only by the backward forces of Islam, socialism and tintedness. Are these forces allied to each other? Islam and socialism are not backward? Is 'tinted' backward or progressive? You are mixing things up faster than a cups-and-ball trickster/apologist. Please explain. https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1429625109191532545 Agatha? Is that you, dear? Ee-gad, what have they done with you? Bertie: His atavistic reincarnation of a dead altar boy. Oh, no signs of life, dear. They left him with the corpse. Still, take him out of his trunk and he makes a great party trick. Sit him on your knee, drink a glass of water and he talks back at you. He's a charm to watch, the boys love it. How he works up the exasperation I'll never know. That wooden mouth clicks away and the colour never fades from his cheeks. The toupe's a hoot. I must remember to order him one when I'm next in Istanbul.

"What ho!" I said.
"What ho!" said Karnal.
"What ho! What ho!"
"What ho! What ho! What ho!" saig Norf.

After that it seemed rather difficult to go on with the conversation.

Karnal wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 6:37pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 6:05pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:57pm: Bertie wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:43pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:53pm: You prefer to see the West as a beacon of shining light, shadowed only by the backward forces of Islam, socialism and tintedness. Are these forces allied to each other? Islam and socialism are not backward? Is 'tinted' backward or progressive? You are mixing things up faster than a cups-and-ball trickster/apologist. Please explain. https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1429625109191532545 Agatha? Is that you, dear? Ee-gad, what have they done with you? Bertie: His atavistic reincarnation of a dead altar boy. Oh, no signs of life, dear. They left him with the corpse. Still, take him out of his trunk and he makes a great party trick. Sit him on your knee, drink a glass of water and he talks back at you. He's a charm to watch, the boys love it. How he works up the exasperation I'll never know. That wooden mouth clicks away and the colour never fades from his cheeks. The toupe's a hoot. I must remember to order him one when I'm next in Istanbul.

Bertie lives on, in an obscure forum; while his corpse rests in peace under Frank's mother's house.

Bertie wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 6:39pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 6:37pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 6:05pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:57pm: Bertie wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:43pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:53pm: You prefer to see the West as a beacon of shining light, shadowed only by the backward forces of Islam, socialism and tintedness. Are these forces allied to each other? Islam and socialism are not backward? Is 'tinted' backward or progressive? You are mixing things up faster than a cups-and-ball trickster/apologist. Please explain. https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1429625109191532545 Agatha? Is that you, dear? Ee-gad, what have they done with you? Bertie: His atavistic reincarnation of a dead altar boy. Oh, no signs of life, dear. They left him with the corpse. Still, take him out of his trunk and he makes a great party trick. Sit him on your knee, drink a glass of water and he talks back at you. He's a charm to watch, the boys love it. How he works up the exasperation I'll never know. That wooden mouth clicks away and the colour never fades from his cheeks. The toupe's a hoot. I must remember to order him one when I'm next in Istanbul. What ho!" I said. "What ho!" said Karnal. "What ho! What ho!" "What ho! What ho! What ho!" After that it seemed rather difficult to go on with the conversation.

Didn't even see my lips move, did you?

They say it's more art than science, but one still needs to put in the practice.

Watch this:

I say, how was the trip to Cairo, Bertie? I hear you've been on the Grand Tour. Did you see any interesting erect monuments?

Karnal wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 6:50pm:

Bertie wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 6:39pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 6:37pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 6:05pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:57pm: Bertie wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:43pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:53pm: You prefer to see the West as a beacon of shining light, shadowed only by the backward forces of Islam, socialism and tintedness. Are these forces allied to each other? Islam and socialism are not backward? Is 'tinted' backward or progressive? You are mixing things up faster than a cups-and-ball trickster/apologist. Please explain. https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1429625109191532545 Agatha? Is that you, dear? Ee-gad, what have they done with you? Bertie: His atavistic reincarnation of a dead altar boy. Oh, no signs of life, dear. They left him with the corpse. Still, take him out of his trunk and he makes a great party trick. Sit him on your knee, drink a glass of water and he talks back at you. He's a charm to watch, the boys love it. How he works up the exasperation I'll never know. That wooden mouth clicks away and the colour never fades from his cheeks. The toupe's a hoot. I must remember to order him one when I'm next in Istanbul. What ho!" I said. "What ho!" said Karnal. "What ho! What ho!" "What ho! What ho! What ho!" After that it seemed rather difficult to go on with the conversation. Didn't even see my lips move, did you? They say it's more art than science, but one still needs to put in the practice. Watch this: I say, how was the trip to Cairo, Bertie? I hear you've been on the Grand Tour. Did you see any interesting erect monuments?

Cairo was a shithole. Egypt was a shithole. I travelled first class from Cairo to Luxor - the train was a shithole. Hadn't been cleaned since the 20s. Gypos - dirty, slovenly, cruel to their animals, insolent, greedy bastards. The only nice ones were the Copts - so the Gypos are hunting them to extinction.


But that's just my experience.  The Turks were very hospitable people, up there with Australians and the English, I hasten to add.

Bertie wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 7:05pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 6:50pm: Bertie wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 6:39pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 6:37pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 6:05pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:57pm: Bertie wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:43pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:53pm: You prefer to see the West as a beacon of shining light, shadowed only by the backward forces of Islam, socialism and tintedness. Are these forces allied to each other? Islam and socialism are not backward? Is 'tinted' backward or progressive? You are mixing things up faster than a cups-and-ball trickster/apologist. Please explain. https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1429625109191532545 Agatha? Is that you, dear? Ee-gad, what have they done with you? Bertie: His atavistic reincarnation of a dead altar boy. Oh, no signs of life, dear. They left him with the corpse. Still, take him out of his trunk and he makes a great party trick. Sit him on your knee, drink a glass of water and he talks back at you. He's a charm to watch, the boys love it. How he works up the exasperation I'll never know. That wooden mouth clicks away and the colour never fades from his cheeks. The toupe's a hoot. I must remember to order him one when I'm next in Istanbul. What ho!" I said. "What ho!" said Karnal. "What ho! What ho!" "What ho! What ho! What ho!" After that it seemed rather difficult to go on with the conversation. Didn't even see my lips move, did you? They say it's more art than science, but one still needs to put in the practice. Watch this: I say, how was the trip to Cairo, Bertie? I hear you've been on the Grand Tour. Did you see any interesting erect monuments? Cairo was a shithole. Egypt was a shithole. I travelled first class from Cairo to Luxor - the train was a shithole. Hadn't been cleaned since the 20s. Gypos - dirty, slovenly, cruel to their animals, insolent, greedy bastards. The only nice ones were the Copts - so the Gypos are hunting them to extinction. But that's just my experience.  The Turks were very hospitable people, up there with Australians and the English, I hasten to add.

Jolly good show, old boy. Would you care to tell the chaps about your experience with the locals?

Cover your ears, ladies.

I say, Bertie, what does one call a Mohammedan trannie with a tampon in her purse?

Karnal wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 9:53pm:

Bertie wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 7:05pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 6:50pm: Bertie wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 6:39pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 6:37pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 6:05pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:57pm: Bertie wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:43pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:53pm: You prefer to see the West as a beacon of shining light, shadowed only by the backward forces of Islam, socialism and tintedness. Are these forces allied to each other? Islam and socialism are not backward? Is 'tinted' backward or progressive? You are mixing things up faster than a cups-and-ball trickster/apologist. Please explain. https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1429625109191532545 Agatha? Is that you, dear? Ee-gad, what have they done with you? Bertie: His atavistic reincarnation of a dead altar boy. Oh, no signs of life, dear. They left him with the corpse. Still, take him out of his trunk and he makes a great party trick. Sit him on your knee, drink a glass of water and he talks back at you. He's a charm to watch, the boys love it. How he works up the exasperation I'll never know. That wooden mouth clicks away and the colour never fades from his cheeks. The toupe's a hoot. I must remember to order him one when I'm next in Istanbul. What ho!" I said. "What ho!" said Karnal. "What ho! What ho!" "What ho! What ho! What ho!" After that it seemed rather difficult to go on with the conversation. Didn't even see my lips move, did you? They say it's more art than science, but one still needs to put in the practice. Watch this: I say, how was the trip to Cairo, Bertie? I hear you've been on the Grand Tour. Did you see any interesting erect monuments? Cairo was a shithole. Egypt was a shithole. I travelled first class from Cairo to Luxor - the train was a shithole. Hadn't been cleaned since the 20s. Gypos - dirty, slovenly, cruel to their animals, insolent, greedy bastards. The only nice ones were the Copts - so the Gypos are hunting them to extinction. But that's just my experience.  The Turks were very hospitable people, up there with Australians and the English, I hasten to add. Jolly good show, old boy. Would you care to tell the chaps about your experience with the locals? Cover your ears, ladies. I say, Bertie, what does one call a Mohammedan trannie with a tampon in her purse?

Confused. Aren't they all, the sons of Mohammed?


Bertie is banned now.  Brian's tentacles, lacking any spine,  go far, even into FD's ears. FD is our Zuck and Weird Beard Dorsey, all in one. Fuhrerprinzip, innit.

Frank wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 10:05pm:

Bertie is banned now.

You throw your weight around here, then create alter-egos, for what reason? To fool us into thinking you've got allies? or something else?

Either way, there's no honour in it.

Frank wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 10:05pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 9:53pm: Bertie wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 7:05pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 6:50pm: Bertie wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 6:39pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 6:37pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 6:05pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:57pm: Bertie wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 5:43pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:53pm: You prefer to see the West as a beacon of shining light, shadowed only by the backward forces of Islam, socialism and tintedness. Are these forces allied to each other? Islam and socialism are not backward? Is 'tinted' backward or progressive? You are mixing things up faster than a cups-and-ball trickster/apologist. Please explain. https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1429625109191532545 Agatha? Is that you, dear? Ee-gad, what have they done with you? Bertie: His atavistic reincarnation of a dead altar boy. Oh, no signs of life, dear. They left him with the corpse. Still, take him out of his trunk and he makes a great party trick. Sit him on your knee, drink a glass of water and he talks back at you. He's a charm to watch, the boys love it. How he works up the exasperation I'll never know. That wooden mouth clicks away and the colour never fades from his cheeks. The toupe's a hoot. I must remember to order him one when I'm next in Istanbul. What ho!" I said. "What ho!" said Karnal. "What ho! What ho!" "What ho! What ho! What ho!" After that it seemed rather difficult to go on with the conversation. Didn't even see my lips move, did you? They say it's more art than science, but one still needs to put in the practice. Watch this: I say, how was the trip to Cairo, Bertie? I hear you've been on the Grand Tour. Did you see any interesting erect monuments? Cairo was a shithole. Egypt was a shithole. I travelled first class from Cairo to Luxor - the train was a shithole. Hadn't been cleaned since the 20s. Gypos - dirty, slovenly, cruel to their animals, insolent, greedy bastards. The only nice ones were the Copts - so the Gypos are hunting them to extinction. But that's just my experience.  The Turks were very hospitable people, up there with Australians and the English, I hasten to add. Jolly good show, old boy. Would you care to tell the chaps about your experience with the locals? Cover your ears, ladies. I say, Bertie, what does one call a Mohammedan trannie with a tampon in her purse? Confused. Aren't they all, the sons of Mohammed? Bertie is banned now.  Brian's tentacles, lacking any spine,  go far, even into FD's ears. FD is our Zuck and Weird Beard Dorsey, all in one. Fuhrerprizip, innit.

Oh-er, looks like Bertie's back in the trunk, boys. This is Frank.

Tell us about your friend, Brian, Frank. Close, are you?

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 10:08pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:05pm: Bertie is banned now.  You throw your weight around here, then create alter-egos, for what reason? To fool us into thinking you've got allies? or something else? Either way, there's no honour in it.

Not at all.

I cannot post on certain boards for god or FD knows what reason - Islam, environment, federal politics. No rhyme or reason. Bertie could.


No longer. Thank you Zuck, Dorsey, FD, brian and all the other free speech open discussion heroes. policing speech is getting really, really .... er.... fraught.
The clash of PC and legal pieties, rules and regulations is tightening the knot every day.  China spends more on internal policing than on its army. The west is approaching that sort of mind-set, policing speech within. Ozpol is a microcosm for that.

Frank wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 10:21pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:08pm: Frank wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:05pm: Bertie is banned now.  You throw your weight around here, then create alter-egos, for what reason? To fool us into thinking you've got allies? or something else? Either way, there's no honour in it. Not at all. I cannot post on certain boards for god or FD knows what reason - Islam, environment, federal politics. No rhyme or reason. Bertie could. No longer. Thank you Zuck, Dorsey, FD, brian and all the other free speech open discussion heroes. policing speech is getting really, really .... er.... fraught. The clash of PC and legal pieties, rules and regulations is tightening the knot every day.  China spends more on internal policing than on its army. The west is approaching that sort of mind-set, policing speech within. Ozpol is a microcosm for that.

Try just being one identity here.

Ask a novelist what it takes to create their characters... A bit more than just registering.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 10:23pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:21pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:08pm: Frank wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:05pm: Bertie is banned now.  You throw your weight around here, then create alter-egos, for what reason? To fool us into thinking you've got allies? or something else? Either way, there's no honour in it. Not at all. I cannot post on certain boards for god or FD knows what reason - Islam, environment, federal politics. No rhyme or reason. Bertie could. No longer. Thank you Zuck, Dorsey, FD, brian and all the other free speech open discussion heroes. policing speech is getting really, really .... er.... fraught. The clash of PC and legal pieties, rules and regulations is tightening the knot every day.  China spends more on internal policing than on its army. The west is approaching that sort of mind-set, policing speech within. Ozpol is a microcosm for that. Try just being one identity here. Ask a novelist what it takes to create their characters... A bit more than just registering.

I do. But I am curtailed without any explanation. A bit Chinese/Soviet/Green/PC, that.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 10:08pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:05pm: Bertie is banned now.  You throw your weight around here, then create alter-egos, for what reason? To fool us into thinking you've got allies? or something else? Either way, there's no honour in it.

Honour amongst ventriloquist dummies.

They're bitchier than a clutter of trannies. Why do you think they have to be kept in separate trunks?

Put them together and all you'd have is a pile of sawdust.

Frank wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 10:28pm:

I do.

No, you don't.

Karnal wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 10:30pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:08pm: Frank wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:05pm: Bertie is banned now.  You throw your weight around here, then create alter-egos, for what reason? To fool us into thinking you've got allies? or something else? Either way, there's no honour in it. Honour amongst ventriloquist dummies. They're bitchier than a clutter of trannies. Why do you think they have to be kept in separate trunks? Put them together and all you'd have is a pile of sawdust.

A moron can post this
https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1629437296/5#5

but I cannot respond to it on that board because he is a protected species. Clap hands, boys, it's your idea of regulated thought.

Frank wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 10:21pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:08pm: Frank wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:05pm: Bertie is banned now.  You throw your weight around here, then create alter-egos, for what reason? To fool us into thinking you've got allies? or something else? Either way, there's no honour in it. Not at all. I cannot post on certain boards for god or FD knows what reason - Islam, environment, federal politics. No rhyme or reason. Bertie could. No longer. Thank you Zuck, Dorsey, FD, brian and all the other free speech open discussion heroes. policing speech is getting really, really .... er.... fraught. The clash of PC and legal pieties, rules and regulations is tightening the knot every day.  China spends more on internal policing than on its army. The west is approaching that sort of mind-set, policing speech within. Ozpol is a microcosm for that.

Oh look, poor old Bertie's been busted for not assimilating.

Not his fault - Bwiaaaaan!

You tell Bertie to come back when he's learned some manners, old boy.

White civilisation has its discontents, no?

Frank wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 10:28pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:23pm: Frank wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:21pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:08pm: Frank wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:05pm: Bertie is banned now.  You throw your weight around here, then create alter-egos, for what reason? To fool us into thinking you've got allies? or something else? Either way, there's no honour in it. Not at all. I cannot post on certain boards for god or FD knows what reason - Islam, environment, federal politics. No rhyme or reason. Bertie could. No longer. Thank you Zuck, Dorsey, FD, brian and all the other free speech open discussion heroes. policing speech is getting really, really .... er.... fraught. The clash of PC and legal pieties, rules and regulations is tightening the knot every day.  China spends more on internal policing than on its army. The west is approaching that sort of mind-set, policing speech within. Ozpol is a microcosm for that. Try just being one identity here. Ask a novelist what it takes to create their characters... A bit more than just registering. I do. But I am curtailed without any explanation. A bit Chinese/Soviet/Green/PC, that.

So mean and unfair. Do you know what you are, dear boy?

You're offended. Boongs, Muslims, Chows, Throbbing Jigaboos, and poor old you.

I've a good mind to write Brian a stern letter of protest.

Dear Brian,

Please let Bertie out of his box. He didn't mean it. He was only getting back the Boongs for oppressing him, so unfair. Can you please ask FD to give Bertie one last chance? He promises to be nice from now on.

Cunningly yours,

Anal K.

Frank wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 10:05pm:

Bertie is banned now.

And how, Soren would you know that, unless of course you were in reality, "Bertie"?  Oh, dearie, dearie, do I need to remind you of the forum rules which precludes users creating alternative personas? 

Quote:

Do not create additional profiles to circumvent suspension.

[url=https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/forum-rules.html]Source[/url]

I have not complained to Freediver about you, yet.  Tsk, tsk.   ::) ::)

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 10:08pm:

You throw your weight around here

How so?

What weight?
What throw?

Frank wrote on Aug 24^th, 2021 at 7:01pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:08pm: You throw your weight around here How so? What weight? What throw?

You clearly believe you are above the forum rules, Soren.  Tsk, tsk.   ::) ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 24^th, 2021 at 10:32pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 24th, 2021 at 7:01pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:08pm: You throw your weight around here How so? What weight? What throw? You clearly believe you are above the forum rules, Soren.  Tsk, tsk.   ::) ::)

Yes, but perhaps he doesn't know, Brian, have you considered that?

Bertie's a new Australian. He clearly hasn't assimilated, the poor thing. He's still learning our jolly ways.

You don't have to be crazy to post here, but it helps, no?

Karnal wrote on Aug 24^th, 2021 at 10:38pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 24th, 2021 at 10:32pm: Frank wrote on Aug 24th, 2021 at 7:01pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:08pm: You throw your weight around here How so? What weight? What throw? You clearly believe you are above the forum rules, Soren.  Tsk, tsk.   ::) ::) Yes, but perhaps he doesn't know, Brian, have you considered that? Bertie's a new Australian. He clearly hasn't assimilated, the poor thing. He's still learning our jolly ways. You don't have to be crazy to post here, but it helps, no?

Yeah, good point - why aren't  the forum rules published in community languages???  Australian racism?? Tsk, tsk  ::) ::)

I asked one of the members-run board's moderators why I couldnt post on his board. He didn't know but confirmed that I wasnt banned.  Anyway, it all seems a bit haphazard and arbitrary.




Still, I still don't see how I "throw my weight around here", but.

Frank wrote on Aug 25^th, 2021 at 3:17pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 24th, 2021 at 10:38pm: Brian Ross wrote on Aug 24th, 2021 at 10:32pm: Frank wrote on Aug 24th, 2021 at 7:01pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:08pm: You throw your weight around here How so? What weight? What throw? You clearly believe you are above the forum rules, Soren.  Tsk, tsk.   ::) ::) Yes, but perhaps he doesn't know, Brian, have you considered that? Bertie's a new Australian. He clearly hasn't assimilated, the poor thing. He's still learning our jolly ways. You don't have to be crazy to post here, but it helps, no? Yeah, good point - why aren't  the forum rules published in community languages???  Australian racism?? Tsk, tsk  ::) ::) I asked one of the members-run board's moderators why I couldnt post on his board. He didn't know but confirmed that I wasnt banned.  Anyway, it all seems a bit haphazard and arbitrary. Still, I still don't see how I "throw my weight around here", but.

Just so. You're merely offended, ya?

You do have that right, dear. After all, you moved to a country with Unflushable Tjurds, Pakistani Bastards and Dirty Little Inverts.

You don't want them here.

So unfair, no?

Karnal wrote on Aug 25^th, 2021 at 6:22pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 25th, 2021 at 3:17pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 24th, 2021 at 10:38pm: Brian Ross wrote on Aug 24th, 2021 at 10:32pm: Frank wrote on Aug 24th, 2021 at 7:01pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:08pm: You throw your weight around here How so? What weight? What throw? You clearly believe you are above the forum rules, Soren.  Tsk, tsk.   ::) ::) Yes, but perhaps he doesn't know, Brian, have you considered that? Bertie's a new Australian. He clearly hasn't assimilated, the poor thing. He's still learning our jolly ways. You don't have to be crazy to post here, but it helps, no? Yeah, good point - why aren't  the forum rules published in community languages???  Australian racism?? Tsk, tsk  ::) ::) I asked one of the members-run board's moderators why I couldnt post on his board. He didn't know but confirmed that I wasnt banned.  Anyway, it all seems a bit haphazard and arbitrary. Still, I still don't see how I "throw my weight around here", but. Just so. You're merely offended, ya?

No. We are not in Pakistan where asking questions is taken to be signs of being offended. And the point, which you are groping for, Biddenesquely, is "nobody has the right not to be offended". But it will elude you as soon as you blink. It always has.
Pakistan Akhbar, no? You? Curious? Just so? Ah. Your jolly ways.  Yawn, tut tut, eye roll.

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 24^th, 2021 at 2:18pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:05pm: Bertie is banned now.  And how, Soren would you know that, unless of course you were in reality, "Bertie"?  Oh, dearie, dearie, do I need to remind you of the forum rules which precludes users creating alternative personas?  Quote: Do not create additional profiles to circumvent suspension. [url=https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/forum-rules.html]Source[/url] I have not complained to Freediver about you, yet.  Tsk, tsk.   ::) ::)

You are the quinessential spineless apologist, Bbwian.  You are pro-Islam, pro-taliban - ie pro-ISIS, since there is no difference between ISIS  and Taliban. Both are Islamic. 

A full throated critic of Christianity, America, anything Western - and a spineless,  duplicitous, dishonest apologist and excuser of Islam, ISIS, Talibs, whatever, as long as they are against what you are against.  Tsk, tsk  ::)

Frank wrote on Aug 25^th, 2021 at 9:54pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 24th, 2021 at 2:18pm: Frank wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 10:05pm: Bertie is banned now.  And how, Soren would you know that, unless of course you were in reality, "Bertie"?  Oh, dearie, dearie, do I need to remind you of the forum rules which precludes users creating alternative personas?  Quote: Do not create additional profiles to circumvent suspension. [url=https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/forum-rules.html]Source[/url] I have not complained to Freediver about you, yet.  Tsk, tsk.   ::) ::) You are the quinessential spineless apologist, Bbwian.  You are pro-Islam, pro-taliban - ie pro-ISIS, since there is no difference between ISIS  and Taliban. Both are Islamic.  A full throated critic of Christianity, America, anything Western - and a spineless,  duplicitous, dishonest apologist and excuser of Islam, ISIS, Talibs, whatever, as long as they are against what you are against.  Tsk, tsk  ::)

Bwian's not apologising for Fox News, dear boy.

Only you could do that.