Post by Captain Nemo on Jan 28th, 2022 at 12:04am
;D
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General Discussion >> Thinking Globally >> socialists and the Chinese Communist Party http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1643170908 Message started by freediver on Jan 26th, 2022 at 2:21pm |
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Title: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 26th, 2022 at 2:21pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 12:52pm:
What do you think of the CCP? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 26th, 2022 at 3:13pm
They can get people to goosestep well, like Germans and Russians used to!
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Jan 26th, 2022 at 3:24pm
Approximately 60% of North Korea’s population lives in poverty.
North Korea has a command economy, which is commonplace among communist countries. The government has control over all monetary exchanges, causing the economy to remain relatively stagnant due to a lack of competition between businesses. Poverty is defined by China as anyone in rural areas earning less than about $2.30 a day (adjusted for inflation). It was fixed in 2010 and looks at income but also living conditions, healthcare and education. Provinces have been racing to reach the goal. Jiangsu, for example, announced in January last year that only 17 of its 80 million residents still lived in poverty. The national benchmark used by the Chinese government is slightly higher than the $1.90 a day poverty line used by the World Bank to look at poverty globally. So much for 'lifting people out of poverty' under socialism - just define away poverty and lie it away. You get $2.50 A DAY? You're alright, Pong. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by issuevoter on Jan 26th, 2022 at 4:47pm
Australian socialists, and that includes most Labor/Green voters, are cautious when discussing the CCP. I think they know they are skating on thin ice when it comes to praising economic progress in China.
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 26th, 2022 at 5:47pm freediver wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 2:21pm:
Being a socialist, I hope the CCP - practicing "socialism with Chinese characteristics" - can deal with all the challenges China is currently facing, not least US determination to "contain China".....and continue to display the fastest increase in living standards of any nation in history, to finally achieve (by 2049, the 100th anniversary of the revolution) a "prosperous socialist nation in all respects" with common prosperity (in contrast to the entrenched poverty that will always be a feature of un-managed market economies). Note: the CCP has widespread support among the people, so I ignore the "Xi is Stalin" crap of western anti-socialist demagogues. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:00pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 5:47pm:
Would you settle for Kruschev? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:03pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 3:13pm:
Always incredibly impressive, like a Scots band with those massive drums, sticks flying, and wind-pipers, all performing with military precision.... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:07pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:03pm:
The highland Scots are historically tribal warriors but free thinkers. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:07pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:00pm:
I don't know enough about Kruschev's understanding of economics to answer that question. Certainly (AFAIK) Kruschev never murdered anyone. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:10pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:07pm:
And he was deposed, so.. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:12pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:07pm:
Yes, engaging/carrying on the tradition of unending slaughter that is the outcome of tribal (or any) warfare. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:15pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:12pm:
So you admire them, but.. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:15pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:10pm:
You're the one telling the soviet 'socialist' story (ancient history), so..... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:20pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:15pm:
I'm just wondering that he was deposed because.. maybe.. he didn't murder as many of his own people as Stalin or Mao. Not murdering anyone is not work experience proof on any totalitarian's CV. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:22pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:15pm:
Are you nuts? I loathe the unending slaugterhouse of tribal warfare. How on earth you perceived otherwise is beyond me... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:27pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 5:47pm:
Have you noticed that the CCP is achieving all these amazing things by transitioning to free market capitalism? At a faster rate than just about any country in history? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:28pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:20pm:
Yet the crucifixion of a truth teller (eg Assange) exposing the murder of civilians is a characteristic of the 'democratic' 'values based' US government. Hypocrites. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:28pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:22pm:
No offence intended. I admire the Chinese instinct for pragmatism and acute business sense. It's why the sensibility of Hamlet can't be successfully translated into Chinese. I'm told that 'To be or not to be, that is the question' translates most easily into Chinese as: 'Live or or die, that's it'. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:29pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:28pm:
Yes, Every nation's playing poker at the high table. And they're all cheating! |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:29pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:28pm:
Assange is still alive. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:34pm freediver wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:27pm:
And yet the US is condemning China for not 'liberalizing' trade. Which is it? Ellen Brown has another take: https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-american-dream-is-alive-and-well-in-china/ The American Dream Is Alive and Well—in China |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:35pm Quote:
There is not contradiction there. I did not say they had achieved free market capitalism. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:40pm freediver wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:29pm:
And crucified by murderous hypocrites, even if he is not actually dead yet, (no doubt drawing on remarkable reserves of inner strength). |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:40pm freediver wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:35pm:
But if any people are genetically and culturally primed for free market capitalism and their contempt for politics (leaving out their Confucian obsession with obeisance), it's a wonder they're not the world's greatest democracy. Maybe their fear of chaos? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:43pm freediver wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:35pm:
That's right, they are avoiding it like the plague... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:50pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:43pm:
Phew! The CCP has bought us another 30 years! |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:52pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:40pm:
Whatever, the CCP's goal of 'prosperous socialist society in all respects' appears within reach. Meanwhile Ellen Brown is scratching her head trying to work out why "the American Dream is alive and well in China" while US democracy is on the verge of collapse and half the population are living paycheck to paycheck ...if you even have a job.... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:55pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:40pm:
Ask the propaganda ministry to explain to you what crucified means, and how silly you look accusing western countries of this while defending China. Quote:
Ask any westerner doing business in China and they will tell you the Chinese have enourmous cultural baggage to get over before they catch up with the west. Starting with their education system, which teaches them to regurgitate, but not think. Quote:
Like said, they are transitioning faster than any other country in history. That means moving towards it, not avoiding it. Quote:
Sure, but only to the extent that "capitalist country that still calls itself socialist" is in reach. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:56pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:52pm:
'Appears' being the operative word. Like, 'mirage'. Anyone who seeks to understand the Chinese (and I suspect you do) might learn that that they appear to have an instinctive disregard for the emperor; which increases the further from his palace the village is located. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:57pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:50pm:
Sorry, western economists predict the Chinese economy will surpass the US in less than 10 years. You better stop fighting among yourselves if you want to prevent it...though you are genetically predisposed to continue doing just that, deluded 'individual sovereignty' fools that you are, so not much hope .... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:59pm Quote:
Not on a per capita basis. That means still poor by comparison. Same income, divided by over four times as many people. But even that is an impressive feat compared to when they were starving under the shackles of communism a generation ago. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:59pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:57pm:
Ah! Economists' predictions. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 26th, 2022 at 7:07pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:56pm:
No, as in 'predicted' by Western economists. Quote:
The CCP might well be the first government in China's history to achieve the support of all its citizens....as opposed to the usual half, at best, achieved by the governing party in adversarial multi party rabbles aka democracy. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 26th, 2022 at 7:09pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 7:07pm:
Don't believe everything we tell you via megaphone! |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 26th, 2022 at 7:12pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 6:59pm:
Usually worthless I agree, but what have they - China's adversaries - got to gain with such predictions? Anyway, not long to find out.... [meanwhile China is cutting interest rates, while the US is raising them... which of these policies is more likely to increase the nation's output?] |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 26th, 2022 at 7:14pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 7:12pm:
Unless its suits your narrative. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 26th, 2022 at 7:18pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 7:14pm:
Which is: what have they - China's adversaries - got to gain with such predictions? Anyway, not long to find out.... [meanwhile China is cutting interest rates, while the US is raising them... which of these policies is more likely to increase the nation's output?] |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 26th, 2022 at 7:22pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 7:18pm:
You threw it out there a few posts back as proof that China will rise. I'd say it's political subterfuge. But, are you asking me what you mean? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 26th, 2022 at 7:38pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 7:22pm:
Ah...thanks, that might be behind the prediction, but it may still be correct, given rates of growth in China up to the present. Quote:
No I am asking you what the western economists mean..... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 26th, 2022 at 7:42pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 7:38pm:
Yeah, 'rates of growth', as reported by the CCP and no dissenting opinion will be entertained. Western economists? Other than deceiving the CCP? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Jan 26th, 2022 at 8:37pm
Why so many socialist Chinese billionnaires?
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by issuevoter on Jan 27th, 2022 at 6:57am
Politically, the goal of socialism is to make all citizens wards of the state. Thus cementing control. This is the purpose of UBI. Socialists in the capitalist West, still cling to the idea of a Marxist utopia and are reluctant to acknowledge that the CCP, for all its "socialism" only exists by police and military force. If I said this in China, I would disappear.
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 27th, 2022 at 10:49am MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 7:42pm:
?? No, as seen in eg, rolling out the world's most extensive HS rail network, and internationally accepted GDP figures, both in PPP terms, by which China is already the world's largest economy, which explains the existence of a middle class of 400 million people soon to be doubled by 2030) and in nominal terms, by which China is rapidly gaining on the US. Quote:
World Bank economists have a pretty good handle on global economic stats. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 27th, 2022 at 10:56am Frank wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 8:37pm:
Because Deng accepted that some need to get rich before the nation can get rich. But the CCP remains true to its socialist 'common prosperity' goal, which is why they have started to crack down on the 'funny money' tricks of financial capitalism, and are concentrating on developing the real goods and services sector of the economy. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 27th, 2022 at 11:09am issuevoter wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 6:57am:
I note the name 'dinosaur' is associated with your posts, which would explain the sheer absurdity of your statement above. Quote:
No, rather cementing the neurons in your befuddled brain. Quote:
Oh god, the cement has already set.... Quote:
1. Eradication of poverty in modern AI and IT assisted economies is not utopia. 2. The CCP has the support of >90% of the Chinese population. 3. No-one in HK has 'disappeared', though some separatist democracy goons have emigrated to other Western countries. They are welcome to the adversarial, gridlocked, achieve-nothing rabbles aka "democracy". |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by tickleandrose on Jan 27th, 2022 at 2:31pm
China has market captialism as its core economic policy not socialism.
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 27th, 2022 at 2:58pm tickleandrose wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 2:31pm:
Nonsense. China is abused by Trump for NOT abiding by the rules of MARKET capitalism, which disallow state subsidization of industry - a Chinese specialty. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Jan 27th, 2022 at 3:42pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 10:56am:
So private ownership of vast quantities of the means of production (capital) is socialism coz the Party can always confiscate it and make you disappear. Capitalism is the exact same except the Communist party can do nuffin' about your privately owned capital. Good one. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 27th, 2022 at 6:34pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 2:58pm:
Again, there is no contradiction. We could criticise America for having illiberal trade policies or too much welfare, but that would not mean that the US does not have market capitalism rather than socialism as it's core economic policy. This is the second time this has been explained to you. Are you having difficulty understanding the concept? Or has the propaganda ministry demanded that Trump stop criticising them and give them a little applause instead before they admit to using free market capitalism? Quote:
;D Nice of them to let their people know. thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 10:56am:
Duh. This is the reason everyone, including the CCP, ends up embracing capitalism rather than socialism. thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 10:56am:
;D But not the socialist 'socialism' goal? Is this how they embrace capitalism in the name of socialism? Quote:
China's GDP per capita is now about US$10k, thanks to their rapid embrace of capitalist principles. In the US it is over 6 times as high. China also has far more people below the poverty line. China is also still exempt from many trade rules, for example governing intellectual property, on the grounds that it is still a third world country and should be given a leg up to help them escape poverty. Eventually they will have to give that up too. The Chinese people will not experience the wealth and freedom of other western nations until they complete the transition to a free market economy as well as adopt democracy beyond the confines of the CCP. They are not even half way there yet. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 27th, 2022 at 7:38pm freediver wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 6:34pm:
No we couldn't criticize the US for having "too much welfare", what planet are you living on? As for "illiberal trade policies" the US claims to be the bastion of liberalism and free-trade. Quote:
GIGO.... Quote:
Addressed above; your argument suffers from GIGO because it has no relationship to reality. Quote:
They don't use free-market capitalism in the manner Trump demands of them ie, without state subsidization of industry. Quote:
Harvard spent some time in China several years ago; satisfaction with the central government was >90%. cf with the 50/50 polling in the adversarial multi party rabbles aka 'democracy', and the increasingly wide-spread disillusionment with that obsolete electoral system, eg measured by the collapse in political party membership. Quote:
Nonsense, the CCP embraces "socialism with Chinese characteristics " (including state subsidization of industry etc.) Quote:
Tip: your definition of socialism is the cause of your repeated GIGO argumentation. The "socialist 'socialism' goal" ( a real gem of clarity, that one...) IS common prosperity. Quote:
China will be double, then triple the size of the US before the 100th anniversary of the CCP, all achieved via the correct combination of 'capitalism ' and 'socialism' (regardless of your ideological definition of these terms...) Quote:
Hint: the fabulous roll-out of the world's most modern and extensive HS rail network was not achieved by the "free market economy". Free markets aren't interested in such vital public infrastructure...which is why the US doesn't have even 50 kms of HS rail, not to mention why Biden is having trouble getting Congress to fund the repair of some bridges... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Jan 27th, 2022 at 8:13pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 7:38pm:
Subsidising industry is not a particularly Chinese characteristic. So what ARE the Chinese characteristics of 'socialism with Chinese characteristics'? Oppressions, dobbing in, mass rallies, ra-ra-ra, ethnic supremacy, delusion about cultural supremacy despite a history of humiliation and inferiority. Chauvinism, in a word. Socialism with Chinese chauvinism. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Jan 27th, 2022 at 8:16pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 7:38pm:
Exactly the same as the aim of capitalism - common prosperity by individual effort. by every able citizen of the polity. A moral dimension entirely missing or deformed in the 'socialist' lunacy. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Jan 27th, 2022 at 8:23pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 7:38pm:
Spoken like a snake oil merchant - correct combination. Scientific socialism, innit, titration is all. That's what will bring China down - too much idiotic ideology, party control, cowering before idiotic party brutes, repression of thinking |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by issuevoter on Jan 27th, 2022 at 8:35pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 11:09am:
Oh god, the cement has already set.... Quote:
1. Eradication of poverty in modern AI and IT assisted economies is not utopia. 2. The CCP has the support of >90% of the Chinese population. 3. No-one in HK has 'disappeared', though some separatist democracy goons have emigrated to other Western countries. They are welcome to the adversarial, gridlocked, achieve-nothing rabbles aka "democracy". [/quote] Insults and contradiction. Is this your best shot? The police and military are most definitely instruments of the CCP, and to state otherwise is to believe a fairy-godmother. The forces' principal is to prevent what THEY call "reactionaries." As for your 90%, the CCP is fully aware that to tolerate dissent is political suicide. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 27th, 2022 at 8:38pm
Something that foreigners in China have commented on is how many ordinary Chinese admire Hitler. The Chinese appear to admire strongmen in power.
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Jan 27th, 2022 at 8:52pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 8:38pm:
They are national, Han national, socialists. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 27th, 2022 at 10:06pm Quote:
The planet where do not not take Trump seriously. He is not even president any more. Yet the propaganda ministry wants you to define capitalism around his criticism of your country? We can't really take you seriously either. You have trouble understanding the point. Is English your second language? Quote:
This is correctly translated into English as "capitalism". Quote:
Ah capitalism. Where you tolerate all those billionaires because everyone is better off. Nothing to do with socialism at all. Quote:
Now we are getting somewhere. Would you say that in this combination, the socialism part is rapidly decreasing, and the capitalism part is rapidly increasing? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Captain Nemo on Jan 28th, 2022 at 12:04am ;D |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by tickleandrose on Jan 28th, 2022 at 9:54am thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 2:58pm:
You have to look through the propaganda, and see the real policy underneath. It is a market capitalism, because the product that they produce, would be sold at a price acceptable to the global market. And the purchase of raw material is set at market value as well. There are a mixture of state and privately owned entities, and in China, there is an emphasis on state owned. This is what the Chinese government called as the 'Chinese characteristic'. In their mind, state owned means people owned, which means socialism with an unique flavour. However, I do argue that, the people do not actually own the state owned company per se, it is actually controlled by the elite few, and in real life, not different to CEOs, and board share holders. So therefore, I cannot agree that this is a socialist economic system. In a real socialist economic system, the people controls the company via democratic votes. So the workers, the cleaners, etc etc all have a vote to where the direction of the company will go, and what sort of things they will produce. Which is very similar to farmer's coop that we seen in Australia. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 28th, 2022 at 3:52pm Frank wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 8:13pm:
But is sure is frowned on by Trump shouting 'unfair competition' Quote:
State planning plus market economy. As a commentator on the ABC's 'The China century said: "when capitalism and communsim come togter, WOW!!" Quote:
Western 'individual sovereignty' ideological propaganda. The CCP has >90% popular support. (Harvard study). Quote:
Admittedly the Chinese are somewhat sensitive after their "century of humiliation"...which you will be able to characterize in an infinite number of ways to suit your delusional 'individual sovereignty' ideology. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 28th, 2022 at 4:04pm issuevoter wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 8:35pm:
The goal of socialism is common prosperity. Your statement was sheer ideological nonsense, yet you want respect... Quote:
I didn't state otherwise; indeed they are instruments of ANY government. Quote:
Democracy ideologues ARE reactionaries, especially when they want to destroy the sovereignty of their own nation. Quote:
Harvard study poll of citizens, not the CCP (google it). |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 28th, 2022 at 4:19pm Frank wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 8:16pm:
Which ignores the different abilities and circumstances of individuals, which is why capitalism always results in wealth alongside entrenched poverty. That's why Marx said: "from each according to his ability... to each according to his need". Quote:
Common prosperity for all, not merely the few as results from capitalist greed, is moral. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 28th, 2022 at 4:30pm Frank wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 8:23pm:
'Scientific socialism', cf pragmatic combination of 'socialism' and 'capitalism' (since you objected to the phrase "correct combination" as snake oil); nevertheless the combination of the two principles, 'state planning' and 'private enterprise', is unbeatable. Quote:
Not long to wait to find out. Certainly the US's paranoia about loss of global hegemony to China will make China's socialist journey more difficult, but .....may the better system win. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 28th, 2022 at 4:36pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 8:38pm:
Hitler did lift Germany out of the morass created by American capitalism's world depression, and succeeded in building the finest autobahn system in the world. But Hitler went to war, something the Chinese are not interested in doing. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 28th, 2022 at 4:38pm Frank wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 8:52pm:
Still amusing yourself with silly word games? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 28th, 2022 at 4:57pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 28th, 2022 at 4:36pm:
And all them Jews he murdered. But, then, the Chinese had Mao, as did the Tibetans. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 28th, 2022 at 5:01pm freediver wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 10:06pm:
It would certainly help if you would drop your silly word games. China's goal is common prosperity, much of the Western press are bleating about what this will mean for 'market efficiency', and the effects on the wealthy.... poor darlings.... Quote:
Only in your ideologically befuddled brain... Quote:
Addressed above. The Western press are busy denigrating the CCP's latest efforts to rein in capitalist excesses (in real estate, financial engineering, and private education etc) Quote:
Difficult to know, what I CAN say is the CCP is the most pragmatic political party on the planet and will adjust its policies as required, on its quest to achieve common prosperity for all, within a "prosperous socialist society in all respects" by 2049. Whereas we can be sure the US in 2049 will still be disfigured by those black inner-city suburbs Trump spoke of in 2016: ""You are living in poverty, your neighborhoods are like war zones, your schools and hospitals are broken, your young men are in prison".. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 28th, 2022 at 5:12pm Captain Nemo wrote on Jan 28th, 2022 at 12:04am:
Biden today reaffirmed the US's intention to ensure the 21st century is "The American Century". I can see US diplomacy increasingly resorting to subterfuge, as China relentlessly nears parity with the US economy..... We live in 'exciting times'. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Jan 28th, 2022 at 5:21pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 28th, 2022 at 4:38pm:
China IS a nationalist and a socialist one party dictatorship. It differs from the Soviet in the complete absence of internationalising its 'socialism with Chinese characteristics". It is not supporting any international communist parties trying to introduce socialism. In this sense and culturally it is completely Han nationalistic - it doesn't want to export its national socialism to the barbarians, which everyone who is not Chinese. It is happy to export the Chinese to act as a fifth column in other countries but has no sense of internationalism as the Marxists have had ever since the First International in the 1860s. Instead, it has a colonialist plan through its Ball and Chain program, turning poorer countries into vassals through debt. It is a Nazi, national socialist, dictatorship with Chinese characteristics. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 28th, 2022 at 5:35pm tickleandrose wrote on Jan 28th, 2022 at 9:54am:
Common prosperity for all is not propaganda, it is achievable because China has all the resources, productive capacity, and system of government to achieve it. Quote:
Yes, correct concerning the external economy; but internally China is implementing common prosperity for all, as noted above. Quote:
Correct (more or less). Quote:
The highlighted: the government owns the SOEs, not the people, but certainly neither 'the elite few'. Jack Ma certainly doesn't control the state-owned Chinese railways (the most extensive HS rail system in the world). Quote:
Regardless of what "real socialism" is, China's "socialism with Chinese characteristics" is certainly not US style capitalism. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 28th, 2022 at 5:45pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 28th, 2022 at 4:57pm:
All bygone history, like the genocide of Australian aborigines; the current CCP is nothing like Mao's party; even so, the disaster under Mao was accidental not deliberate: "The Great Chinese Famine was caused by a combination of radical agricultural policies, social pressure, economic mismanagement, and natural disasters such as droughts and floods in farming regions." Of course the Chinese are still sensitive about their "century of humiliation" (because it is so recent) at the hands of the Western powers, so if you go sticking your nose into their internal affairs you might receive a less than friendly reception. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 28th, 2022 at 6:16pm Frank wrote on Jan 28th, 2022 at 5:21pm:
I'll accept that statement, except the word "dictatorship"; a consensus one-party meritocracy can be based on local democratic election of government officials who work their way through the party ranks. Quote:
Yes, the CCP is at pains to say it is not interested in exporting its model to any other country. Quote:
Well...I'm not in disagreement so far....except that the CCP, (unlike eg Trump), does believe in multi-lateralism. Quote:
Well... China has witnessed the demise of the USSR, but the CCP's desire for multilateralism in international affairs does display a certain socialist internationalism. Quote:
The highlighted: priceless, thanks for the laugh....(but the so called 'debt-diplomacy' is BS) The Belt and Road initiative is building much needed infrastructure especially in Asia and Africa, something the useless US-based IMF (Instant Misery Fund) didn't dream of doing, during the 70 years after WW2. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 28th, 2022 at 6:37pm Quote:
Who was this commentator? Quote:
Does the word socialism still have any real meaning to the Chinese Communist Party? Quote:
No it isn't. The Chinese people were starving to death under the yoke of socialism a generation ago, thanks to the CCP, which you describe as the most pragmatic in the world. So pragmatic, they realised that they would have no country left to run if everyone starved. Now they are starting their own businesses and becoming billionaires. It is rare indeed for people to see such a transition in one generation, or even a lifetime. You cannot give an example of a country that has ever transitioned so rapidly. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 28th, 2022 at 7:16pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 28th, 2022 at 5:45pm:
But not about the near-century of their humiliation at the hands of their mad leaders. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Jan 28th, 2022 at 8:21pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 28th, 2022 at 7:16pm:
Touche! Albania versus China. Like it. Go on, boys. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Ye Grappler on Jan 28th, 2022 at 11:25pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 28th, 2022 at 5:45pm:
Good to see you won't be labeling the comparative prosperity, health and well-being of our Abos as 'genocide' again..... all bygone history.... now go - tell it to the Abo activists and their mates. We could all use some peace and quiet for a while...... So we forget about Mao and Stalin and all the rest... just some little glitch in history, and all forgotten now... what a relief.... ,...... though they murdered six million, in the ovens they fried, the Germans now too have, God On Their Side .... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Victor Sunny on Jan 29th, 2022 at 7:18am Frank wrote on Jan 26th, 2022 at 8:37pm:
China is not actual socialist any more. It's actual capitalist country. Almost all state owned companies are public listed. However, some westerners are still not happy about China. It's the same as Russia even it's western style of democratic country now. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Victor Sunny on Jan 29th, 2022 at 7:26am Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 28th, 2022 at 11:25pm:
Under Mao, China minority such as Uyghers / Tibetans population have grown 3-4 times. It's totally different from Hitler killed Jews or American killed all America Indians. If China was not socialist in the past, it would be more people died from poverty. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Ye Grappler on Jan 29th, 2022 at 9:19am
"American killed all America Indians."
2.757 million (2019) **falls about laughing**.... get you head out of the propaganda books, son...... You can't keep a good Uyghur down... good to see you've dropped the 'genocide' of Aborigines now... they are thriving under the White Man's way - never had it so good with aluminium boats and fishing rods instead of a wooden canoe and a spear, Land Cruisers to get around and the opportunity to live without working or get a job same as everyone else, health care free and a heap of other things... thousands more of the bastards clogging up the welfare system etc.... carrying on in the streets as if they own the joint.... jeez - in Tasmania they were wiped out in 1842 and Tassie now has the highest per capita population of Abos in Australia - just ask them - far higher than the overall Abo population in Australia!! Genocide my arse..... unlike Uyghurs, they aren't even thrown into concentration camps for anti-society activities... they can march here and whine to their heart's content about the evils of The White Man's Way then grab a bite to eat and a beer before going to a party, they can publicly proclaim their desire for independence, and even vandalise statues etc in acts of terrorism, and only the guilty ones if caught, are punished and then lightly. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 29th, 2022 at 10:08am Quote:
The Great Chinese famine, which only ended in the 60s, is one of the greatest man-made disasters in human history. It occurred as a direct result of socialist policies from the Chinese Communist Party that were supposedly intended to help people. Somewhere between 15 and 55 million people died. Hitler could not have killed that many Jews if he tried. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Victor Sunny on Jan 29th, 2022 at 11:53am freediver wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 10:08am:
You can put any unproved numbers you like. In reality, there were not that many people died from hungry at the time. Imagine that all merchants pushed up very high food price due to foods shortage, how many ordinary people could afford? then much more people would die with hungry. However, China Communist distributed food equally to many people to keep people survived. The great famine (1959-1962) was not under Mao leadership at the time. It was under Liu Shaoqi and Deng Xiaoping administration. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 29th, 2022 at 12:13pm Quote:
They were from China, not hungry. A lot of your other comrades were also confused about where the Great Chinese Famine occurred. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine Quote:
Quote:
The Chinese Communist Party killed the Chinese people with their idiotic socialist policies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine The major contributing factors in the famine were the policies of the Great Leap Forward (1958 to 1962) and people's communes, such as inefficient distribution of food within the nation's planned economy, requiring the use of poor agricultural techniques, the Four Pests Campaign that reduced bird populations (which disrupted the ecosystem), over-reporting of grain production, and ordering millions of farmers to switch to iron and steel production.[4][6][8][15][17] During the Seven Thousand Cadres Conference in early 1962, Liu Shaoqi, the second Chairman of the PRC, formally attributed 30% of the famine to natural disasters and 70% to man-made errors ("三分天灾, 七分人祸").[8][18][19] After the launch of Reforms and Opening Up, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) officially stated in June 1981 that the famine was mainly due to the mistakes of the Great Leap Forward as well as the Anti-Rightist Campaign, in addition to some natural disasters and the Sino-Soviet split. Quote:
Wow. What a relief. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Victor Sunny on Jan 29th, 2022 at 12:52pm freediver wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 12:13pm:
Quote:
The Chinese Communist Party killed the Chinese people with their idiotic socialist policies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine The major contributing factors in the famine were the policies of the Great Leap Forward (1958 to 1962) and people's communes, such as inefficient distribution of food within the nation's planned economy, requiring the use of poor agricultural techniques, the Four Pests Campaign that reduced bird populations (which disrupted the ecosystem), over-reporting of grain production, and ordering millions of farmers to switch to iron and steel production.[4][6][8][15][17] During the Seven Thousand Cadres Conference in early 1962, Liu Shaoqi, the second Chairman of the PRC, formally attributed 30% of the famine to natural disasters and 70% to man-made errors ("三分天灾, 七分人祸").[8][18][19] After the launch of Reforms and Opening Up, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) officially stated in June 1981 that the famine was mainly due to the mistakes of the Great Leap Forward as well as the Anti-Rightist Campaign, in addition to some natural disasters and the Sino-Soviet split. [/quote] ;D inefficient distribution of food That's poor transportation and was not unequal food distribution. Wikipedia's articles are also unproved. Netizen copied and pasted contents by themselves. I grew up in 1960s and never heard any people died from hungry in my area (poor countryside in the middle of mountains). My experience is much better than you copied those from internet! If there were 50 million people died, that's almost 10% of total population at the time. A lot of people would tell me whom and whom were died from famine, but none! |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 29th, 2022 at 2:15pm freediver wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 12:13pm:
Nasty...a joke at the expense of someone who does not have english as his first language. Quote:
Yes, the catastrophes associated with trying to lift a huge subsistence poverty population out of poverty. Democratic India even now has still failed to improve the lot of 700 million subsistence farmers, whereas China today, with 5 times the per capita income of India, has finally eradicated this type of absolute poverty. Quote:
And yet, fast forward to today: https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-american-dream-is-alive-and-well-in-china/ [Ellen Brown examines why Chinese on average are more satisfied with their government than Americans] Quote:
Yes. Meantime, much of democratic India is still a disgrace to humanity, breeding like rabbits, and without sanitation... Quote:
So now can you leave China alone to govern itself, rather than pushing the absurd 'China threat' nonsense propagated by paranoid Pentagon spooks watching US global hegemony disappearing before their eyes. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 29th, 2022 at 2:21pm Victor Sunny wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 12:52pm:
The Chinese Communist Party killed the Chinese people with their idiotic socialist policies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine The major contributing factors in the famine were the policies of the Great Leap Forward (1958 to 1962) and people's communes, such as inefficient distribution of food within the nation's planned economy, requiring the use of poor agricultural techniques, the Four Pests Campaign that reduced bird populations (which disrupted the ecosystem), over-reporting of grain production, and ordering millions of farmers to switch to iron and steel production.[4][6][8][15][17] During the Seven Thousand Cadres Conference in early 1962, Liu Shaoqi, the second Chairman of the PRC, formally attributed 30% of the famine to natural disasters and 70% to man-made errors ("三分天灾, 七分人祸").[8][18][19] After the launch of Reforms and Opening Up, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) officially stated in June 1981 that the famine was mainly due to the mistakes of the Great Leap Forward as well as the Anti-Rightist Campaign, in addition to some natural disasters and the Sino-Soviet split. [/quote] ;D inefficient distribution of food That's poor transportation and was not unequal food distribution. [/quote] That's a nice way to spin it Victor. The Chinese Communist Party made the Chinese people starve to death as equals in their last great effort at making socialism work. But it wasn't Mao's fault. ;D Quote:
Wow. You even lived through it and remain ignorant of it. So how does this prove equal food distribution if 50 million of your comrades starved and you did not even realise there was a famine going on? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 29th, 2022 at 2:26pm Quote:
A joke at someone defending the starving to death of millions of his comrades. Quote:
They were trying socialism. It failed. All they had to do to lift them out of poverty was get out of the way and let them lift themselves, which is what they are now doing. Instead they tried to force them to imitate western industrialisation, without understanding the real causes. Quote:
Can you quote me, comrade? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Bobby. on Jan 29th, 2022 at 2:29pm freediver wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 2:26pm:
Hi FD, there are communists hiding at Ozpolitic - I'm glad you're weeding them out. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 29th, 2022 at 2:36pm
Deng Xiaoping imagined a China under the rule of law (as opposed to rule by law) and, some time in the future (certainly not in his lifetime), liberal democracy.
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Victor Sunny on Jan 29th, 2022 at 2:41pm freediver wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 2:21pm:
I think no point to argue with an anti-China stubborn activist. How many million died from famine? you name it. I already told you I never heard that. When I went uni in north China, my classmates were from every part of China and very few people talked about great famine too. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 29th, 2022 at 2:42pm Victor Sunny wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 2:41pm:
Because they were afraid of being disappeared? The ones that did talk about it, what did they say? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 29th, 2022 at 2:46pm freediver wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 2:26pm:
What happened in India? Less 'self-sufficient' than the Chinese? Quote:
Unfortunately no one really understands how the economy works. At least Lowe is resisting the clamour of self- interested private bankers who want higher interest rates, but it looks like Powell will succumb to the pressure. Quote:
I can quote the vast numbers of deluded individual sovereignty ideologues controlling the Western media, Western parliaments, and Western spooks agencies, all clamoring to conduct an ideological war with China over Taiwan. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 29th, 2022 at 2:47pm Victor Sunny wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 2:41pm:
Were you taught about the Tiananmen Massacre? Were you shown the film footage? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 29th, 2022 at 2:58pm freediver wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 2:42pm:
The article mentions an estimate of 15 - 50 million. The lower estimate means many fewer would be aware of it. Quote:
Addressed above. The Left and the Right have their dark histories. "Disappeared'' was a notorious feature of RW military dictatorships in Argentina and Chile supported by the CIA. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 29th, 2022 at 3:06pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 2:47pm:
According to Western sources, estimates vary from "several hundred to several thousands". China of course was a much less self-assured nation at that time. And "democratic governments" weren't averse to firing on citizens either; 6 students murdered by the 'national guard' in the US, during the Vietnam war protests. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 29th, 2022 at 3:24pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 3:06pm:
This difference being is that this information has not been concealed from the people or the world. In China it's illegal even today to discuss the Tiananmen Square massacre. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 29th, 2022 at 3:45pm Victor Sunny wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 12:52pm:
This was very carefully worded Victor. Have you been practicing how to explain away millions of dead comrades to westerners? Quote:
Except for China's brief experiment with socialism, China has been more advanced than India since civilisation began. Nothing "happened". India's GDP per capita is about one fifth that of China's, which is less than the difference between China and the US. The same thing is happening in both India and China - a transition to liberal democracy, and a booming economy as a result. Quote:
Yes they do. We call them economists. The CCP seems to be learning from them. Quote:
You attributed the claim to me. Back it up. Quote:
How was it addressed? What did other Chinese people you met at Uni tell you about the famine? Quote:
Well at least you knew it happened. I have been telling your comrades for some time now about the Great Chinese Famine. They did not seem to know what I was talking about. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Victor Sunny on Jan 29th, 2022 at 4:14pm freediver wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 3:45pm:
I told the truth that I didn't hear and didn't see any people died from hungry in my area at that time. Why should I spend time to explain unproved western media about millions of dead? If I did that, that's against western media bias and they won't believe that too. Should I waste time? Western media only like lies about China, such as genocide of Uyghurs in Xinjiang etc. In China, people could talk about anything and nobody cares, as long as don't go to street to protest / against government. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 29th, 2022 at 4:16pm Victor Sunny wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 4:14pm:
Again, very careful wording. So what did you see and hear about it? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Victor Sunny on Jan 29th, 2022 at 4:23pm freediver wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 4:16pm:
It's poor at the time. Less meat to eat. When I was a child, ate meat once in 1-2 months. New cloth could only have once a year in Chinese new year. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 29th, 2022 at 4:52pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 3:24pm:
A socialist system always has an uphill battle compared with democracy, because we are all naturally (instinctively) self-interested. Hence the establishment of socialism on behalf of the common prosperity is more difficult than establishment of democracy on behalf of 'individual freedom', and can easily be sabotaged by greedy 'sovereign individual' ideologues who don't give a rat's about common prosperity. But the times are changing. Today Chinese socialism is probably more stable than US democracy, which is why democracy ideologues outside of China are thrashing around trying to destroy China, while the younger generation in China are enjoying their rapidly increasing prosperity. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 29th, 2022 at 5:26pm Victor Sunny wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 4:23pm:
Is that what you heard about it? Quote:
China is in transition. Not just economically. The CCP is internally democratic and more people are getting involved in governing the country. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 29th, 2022 at 5:40pm freediver wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 3:45pm:
He said HE didn't hear about it. Accept it . Quote:
Now that's a narrative difficult to maintain; the Indus valley civilization c.2000 BC (whose script has still not been deciphered) preceded China's recorded history. Quote:
What happened is in 1950 China and India had roughly the same GDP both in per capita and total terms. India was a capitalist democracy; China was seeking growth via "Marxism", both had c. $30 billion GDP . cf US $300 billion. Today: US $20 trillion, China $17 trillion, India $2.9 trillion. So US has increased about 70 times, China 600 times, India about 100 times. Quote:
..... 6 times as fast in China under consensus one party meritocracy cf India under an adversarial two- (multi) party democracy, despite the massive misstep in China during the Cultural revolution. Quote:
https://finance-commerce.com/2021/10/commentary-nobody-really-knows-how-the-economy-works/ "It has long been a central tenet of mainstream economic theory that public fears of inflation tend to be self-fulfilling. Now though, a cheeky and even gleeful takedown of this idea has emerged from an unlikely source, a senior adviser at the Federal Reserve named Jeremy B. Rudd. His 27-page paper, published as part of the Fed’s Finance and Economics Discussion Series, has become what passes for a viral sensation among economists. The paper disputes the idea that people’s expectations for future inflation matter much for the level of inflation experienced today. That is especially important right now, in trying to figure out whether the current inflation surge is temporary. As a matter of fact, Powell is considering lifting interest rates, while China is lowering them. (Put two economists in a room, you will get three opinions). Quote:
Whether or not you are one of the very few Western commentators who are prepared to let China develop according to its own model is beside the point. The West - like you - are mostly anti-socialist, anti China, "values based" 'sovereign individual' ideologues. Quote:
I wasn't in China at the time, Victor was. Quote:
Perhaps because their parents have experienced the fastest rate of increase in living standards of any nation in history, and don't need to know. Quote:
A correct statement. Amazing. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 29th, 2022 at 5:44pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 4:52pm:
That's very true and the core reason why imposed socialism (particularly exemplified by the Chinese and Soviet kind) is destined to ultimately fail. People will not be virtuous or generous by force; as people will not be abused into being more compassionate or moral. Quote:
It has always proved to be the fatal flaw of imposed socialism. Quote:
Democracy is loud and messy. Always has, always will be. Totalitarianism,however, is a facade of order over chaos. The cost of state control must always increase to enforce 'order' over the 'messiness' that personal freedom necessarily requires and what people will always pursue (even if they need to do so by subterfuge) e.g. - the Eastern German joke: 'They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work'. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 29th, 2022 at 6:05pm Quote:
Actually, that's not what he said. Quote:
It's easy if you get your facts straight. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Chinese-writing It is not known when Chinese writing originated, but it apparently began to develop in the early 2nd millennium BC. Quote:
Only in a fairly superficial sense. Politicians still openly purchase votes in India. Quote:
Thank's also to the the internal democracy of the CCP, the recent rapid transition to capitalism, and the one child policy, which although barbaric and oppressive, has no doubt helped break the poverty cycle in China. Quote:
What point are you trying to make? You have lost the plot completely here. Quote:
What do you mean let? No-one is stopping China doing anything. And you miss the point again. You attributed a claim to me. Back it up. Whether I actually made the claim is entirely the point here. Quote:
LOL. Only a fool would argue against learning the lessons of history. There is every chance the CCP will go back to the bad old ways if another true believer comes into power. The only reason for not learning from the past is so the CCP can repeat it. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Jan 29th, 2022 at 6:05pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 4:52pm:
;D ;D ;D Let's change human nature! That has worked EVERY time! China WILL change human nature!!! Oh yes!! One more push. And another!! Oh, yes! Coz Marx told us how to. And Mao. And, of course, Xi Ping Pong. They KNOW!! |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 29th, 2022 at 6:09pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 5:44pm:
Yet a generation which has experienced the fastest increase in living standards - over a single lifetime - of any nation in history might well be inclined to stay with the system; a Harvard poll shows >90% satisfaction with the CCP. Quote:
We will see; China is not the USSR and that amazing transformation must be breathtaking for ordinary Chinese.....anyone for a 300 km/hr rail journey to the countryside?. Quote:
Yes, and Chinese people recoiled in horror at the sight of the Capitol riots... Quote:
True, but as freediver has noted, the CCP is increasingly internally democratic, so if those 5-year plans keep getting implemented as they always have in the last 30 years, watch out, while the gridlocked democracies often as not reverse the policies of the previous 'elected' clowns in office. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Victor Sunny on Jan 29th, 2022 at 6:32pm
Socialist is good for poor area with stable environment. There no need competition for resources, productivity, fast changing technology etc. Everything is planned by government, such as your work, your living, health cares, education and so on. China was such kind of society.
However, this world is still a developing world. Everything like technology are changing so fast every year. Due to socialist / planned economy has less competition, it's not capable for the fast changing world. That's the why China changed their economy model and went to market economy. If we could combine socialist and competition of capitalist, this world would have common prosperity. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 29th, 2022 at 6:53pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 6:09pm:
Hardly a surprise given what Deng started with in 1980. The country was in a medieval state of abject poverty. Quote:
I don't believe the CCP will become increasingly internally democratic. Xi Jinping is creating a transfer-of-power crisis by his drive towards making himself president-for-life. He's nearly 69 now. As he gets older and weaker, a catastrophic power struggle will be in the making. Deng recognised this problem and imposed a limit of 2 5-year terms, which Xi has had removed. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 29th, 2022 at 6:56pm Quote:
If you mean just capitalism with some kind of safety net like unemployment benefits, that's easy. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 29th, 2022 at 7:18pm Quote:
It's a myth that the Chinese have viable unemployment protection, They also have no free healthcare system. Healthcare is a joke, with the voodoo of TCM being mandatory with an obsession with antibiotics. In those terms, Australians enjoy socialism by choice. China has enforced socialism without the benefits (i.e. totalitarianism). |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Ye Grappler on Jan 29th, 2022 at 7:35pm
Well..... I suppose it depends on your definition of democratic.... Peoples Democratic Republic of Despotism, v.1984.
... how was that one, sports fans... right up there for the Oscars?.... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 30th, 2022 at 6:30am
If the (half) joke is true (and, tipping the hat to the apparent mainland Chinese love for short lists, which is why the CCP knocks them up by the dozen); after foreigners, four things mainland Chinese hate the most are: losing face, missing a business opportunity, ethnic minorities, and each other; it’s not much of a wonder that imposing socialism on them is, at best, the script for a farce that all mainland Chinese are forced to act out.
Good reason, though, why socialism can only be enforced on them (to evoke the ghost of Mao) from the barrel of a gun; and not from the love of socialism. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 30th, 2022 at 11:10am MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 6:53pm:
That's right, and the results have been spectacular - arguing against your CCP collapse theory. Who wants governement by adversarial democratic clowns only interested in their own careers, without any consistent development goals, running the country? Quote:
I'm sure there is plenty of talent in the CCP to replace Xi when the time comes. I don't believe Xi is hanging onto power for its own sake. Quote:
FDR....3 (or 4) terms? If the leader is right for the times.... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 30th, 2022 at 11:23am Quote:
Everyone does. Including the Chinese. Even the CCP itself is internally democratic. The CCP starved millions of people to death with their idiocy. The CCP is neither competent nor efficient. They have made the biggest backflip in history, and, thanks to lack of democracy, there is nothing to stop them doing it again, with a much higher death toll. It takes true incompetence to kill millions of people by trying to help them. You won't find anything else like that in human history. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 30th, 2022 at 11:51am freediver wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 6:05pm:
Proving how impratical democracy is for vast subsistence populations. Meanwhile, even the US can't decide the vote count without heading to the Supreme Court. Quote:
Plus state subsidization of SOEs and regulation of free markets when required. aka 'socialism'. eg farmer suicides in India are a national disgrace, owing to free market failure which is not tolerated in China. Quote:
I just proved no-one knows how the macroeconomy works; it's time to give MMT economists a run, because the mainstreamers are f**wits still hobbled by obsolete scarcity and unlimited wants BS. There is no scarcity today. Quote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2020/07/31/china-facing-strategy-of-containment-in-new-cold-war/?sh=75ee79cc31ed China Facing Strategy Of Containment In New Cold War ...in war, one is not free to do as one likes.... Interestingly Michelle Bachelet UN HRC is set to visit Xinjiang this year, welcomed by China, to examine the West's false "genocide" accusations. Of course the US isn't interested in the well-being of people in Xinjiang, (any more than countless other countries); and US hypocrisy is breathtaking: "The UN Security Council Al-Qaida Sanctions Committee has listed ETIM (East Turkestan Islamic Movement) as a terrorist organization since 2002, though the United States removed it from its list of Terrorist Organizations in 2020. Hypocrites, all to cause instability in Xinjiang, not to mention the US sanctions on Xinjiang companies which will reduce peoples' incomes there. Quote:
You claim China is free of external coercion; refuted above. Quote:
I didn't argue against it, I said they were too busy getting on with grasping the new opportunities which the CCP has created. Quote:
Is Xi not a 'true believer'? Quote:
The CCP is well aware of past mistakes and has no intention of repeating them; it has too many other tasks in advancing the nation's well-being, rather than teaching past mistakes to the present generation. As Alan Tudge appreciates...he is complaining that schools are teaching students to "hate their country", by examining the aboriginal genocide too closely...ouch. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 30th, 2022 at 12:29pm freediver wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 6:56pm:
Wrong; common prosperity means above-poverty participation in the economy, by and for all. Take a look at the black population in the NT to see the results of your 'safety net' concept, a cop-out from failed mainstream NAIRU economics. The only solution is a Job Guarantee, because welfare ("sit-down money") always destroys morale. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 30th, 2022 at 12:43pm Quote:
That is not what it proves. What it proves is that it requires a cultural change, not a facade. Quote:
This is a good thing. They have justice as well as democracy. Quote:
;D The last time a leader discarded economics like this, tens of millions of Chinese starved to death. Quote:
No it isn't. That is just you being hysterical. Quote:
He is a spin doctor. Like you, trying to sell capitalism to the Chinese people as rebranded socialism, in order to save face for the CCP over the tens of millions of people they killed by trying to help them. Quote:
Unless the winds of change change again, and if the people are oblivious, they will get away with it. Besides, there is more than one way to kill tens of millions of Chinese people by trying to help them, as your MMT argument proves. Quote:
The Chinese people should hate the CCP for starving tens of millions of Chinese people to death. They should hate the CCP out of love for China. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 30th, 2022 at 12:47pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 29th, 2022 at 7:18pm:
Your entire argument completely misses context. In 1950, Australia was a prosperous 1st world country, China was among the poorest in the world, with 700 million to lift out of absolute poverty. Today, with a population of 1.4 billion: "China's Social Security System consists of 5 mandatory insurance schemes (pension fund, medical insurance, industrial injury insurance, unemployment insurance, and maternity insurance) + a housing fund" Obviously the benefits will increase as the economy grows. Meantime, 700 million people are still living in absolute poverty in India , hence the difference in life expectancy: China 77 years, India 69 years. (US: 79) |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 30th, 2022 at 1:14pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 12:47pm:
Oh yes! It may be written but it is not done. Every foreigner and the odd Chinese citizen who risks imprisonment can show you that, in practise, the ordinary Chinese pay their own way in just about everything including unemployment, health and injury. Then there are the kickbacks they're usually forced to pay to local party officials. To add to the cost, the central government burdens provincial governments with unpayable debt by demanding huge infrastructure growth they can't pay for. This incentivises the provincial governments to fleece its population. As for salary and wages. So many ordinary Chinese have not been paid fully for years. Xi Jinping now wants many of them to work extra hours for no extra pay. China may have 1.4 billion, but the catastrophe of imposed socialism (and it's always had Chinese characteristics), has left a gender gap that may ultimately bring China down regardless of how its governed. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 30th, 2022 at 1:25pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 11:10am:
Nothing to do with talent. Totalitarian paramount leadership attracts the brutally psychopathic, which is why Deng imposed a limit to leadership and removed from the role much of its sovereign power. US presidential term limits were self-imposed by all presidents following Washington's example, up to Roosevelt. After Roosevelt, the US Constitution was amended (the 22nd Amendment) to prevent the same from happening again. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 30th, 2022 at 1:29pm freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 12:43pm:
Even if murderous riots disputing the election results occur in the nation's Capitol itself, before "justice" steps in.... Quote:
10's of millions of Americans living paycheck to pay check - the very definition of chronic financial stress - are threatening the stability of US democracy itself. Quote:
The 'China containment' policy is real Quote:
Ideological narratives built around words like 'capitalism' and 'socialism', to produce your 'rebranded socialism', are meaningless. The CCP is "selling" an economy that works for all (aka common prosperity)..... something which Bernie Sanders is also promoting in the US, blocked by evil mainstream economists who you claim they know how the economy works (they don't, even a top Fed insider (Rudd) pointed that out). Quote:
The CCP is well aware of the obstacles being put in the path of China, by the US. Quote:
Actually it will be fun watching mainstream economists ratcheting up interest rates in the US; should cause a recession in no time. Quote:
So Ozzies should hate the Oz government for the aboriginal genocide, still ongoing in the form of chronic alcoholism, family dysfunction and a life expectancy 10 years less than non-indigenous..... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 30th, 2022 at 1:33pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 1:29pm:
So you're not denying that the Chinese should hate the CCP, then? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 30th, 2022 at 1:37pm Quote:
If it is happening in China, why not India? Quote:
Yes. Even if. I realise freedom may be a scary thing for you, but it is better than running down your own citizens with tanks. Quote:
CCP propaganda, not reality. US democracy is not under threat, other than threat of improvement. Quote:
So what? It is not stopping China pretending to be communist while rapidly transitioning to capitalism. Quote:
Only if the word socialism is meaningless, which appears to be the CCP agenda. Quote:
It is selling it as socialism, in order to save face for the CCP for starving tens of millions of it's citizens to death in the name of socialism. So are you. And your comrades who have turned up recently. Quote:
We have a recession every decade or two. Not sure whay you compare that to starving tens of millions of your own citizens to death in the name of socialism. Quote:
We are not a one party dictatorship. China is. I did not say the Chinese people should hate the Chinese government. I said they should hate the CCP for starving tens of millions of Chinese people to death in the name of socialism. The Chinese people should be given a chance to turf the CCP for it's calamitous failings, instead of having to suffer their endless turd polishing. Tens of millions of dead people is not some little mistake the people should be expected to forget about. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 30th, 2022 at 1:51pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 1:14pm:
You ignore the fact that social security rises as a nation's per capita wealth rises. China has in fact eradicated absolute poverty in 2021, and instituted a basic social security program for 1.5 billion people. Quote:
No, I gave the link to the 5 mandatory social security items. Quote:
Xi is widely known for his crackdown on corruption. Quote:
Link? Quote:
The catastrophe of uncontrolled breeding like rabbits is certainly well evident in India. Meanwhile Modern AI and IT assisted economies allow much more flexibility re population policy, provided mainstream economists with their false 'continuous growth' nonsense are ignored. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 30th, 2022 at 1:54pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 1:33pm:
So you're not deny Ozzies ...ditto.. We all have to move on from the past, and deal with today's problems. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 30th, 2022 at 2:04pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 1:54pm:
This is a thread about socialists and the Chinese Communist Party. In the context of this thread you appear to not be denying that the Chinese should hate the CCP. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 30th, 2022 at 2:14pm Quote:
So the propaganda ministry tells us... https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2021/09/24/whats-next-for-poverty-reduction-policies-in-china/#:~:text=China's%20poverty%20line%20is%20below,upper%2Dmiddle%2Dincome%20countries. Quote:
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 30th, 2022 at 3:01pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 1:51pm:
Yes. That's what they say they'll do. It's not what they do. Quote:
Link? [/quote] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMLzrks4cBM Quote:
Ignoring the India deflection, modern AI and IT will not create new humans let alone not correct the gender imbalance. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 30th, 2022 at 3:02pm
How is Artificial Insemination going to assist the economy?
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 30th, 2022 at 3:10pm freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 3:02pm:
It could work on what, in China, are called leftover women - Unmarried and over 25. The Ceausescus would have approved. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 30th, 2022 at 3:25pm
I thought there was a shortage of women, on account of their parents drowning them at birth in a bucket of water, thanks to the CCP one child policy.
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Ye Grappler on Jan 30th, 2022 at 5:31pm freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 3:25pm:
Structure of society is at fault - there are four main 'classes' and the highest types - those women who go into professional study and such -are overlooked by the mainly business types in the top rung of men, who want a sweet young thing of the next class down, so that the man is always the boss. There are countless doctors, lawyers, and other high class professional ladies unattached in China - while at the same time - due to the 'marrying down one rung in four' worn-out nonsense - the men at the very lowest class are forced to remain single or find wives in Cambodia etc. Chinese society has some major flaws - as I've said before - not least that it cuts the very finest intelligent and hard-working educated women out of having a family.... leading to the inevitable dumbing down of the entire structure. A good thing for the ruling self-appointed elite - the less educated the masses the less likelihood they will object to the latest move to control every facet of their lives. You see a couple of them here.... plugging the official line about no personal sovereignty (unless you are of the elite, of course) and so forth, and actually believing that the rest of the world would benefit from such a slanted and tottering social structure - or be punished eventually by Big China for not complying. A recipe for getting their arses kicked if you ask me - however - reports are that the British Army is at its lowest combat arms strength for 300 years and women are just not applying for the 'sharp end' jobs - Too Tough For The Muff! I have no doubt that most of the West is in that parlous state due to the in-roads of Frankenstein Social Scientists and their monster creations.... reports are that Europe is in no position to stand up to any Russian intrusion.... might be back to The Channel and Battle of Britain again, with different foes.... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 30th, 2022 at 5:48pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 3:01pm:
Pass. Quote:
First thing I notice is the sneering attitude toward the concept of common prosperity. Second thing I notice is the concern over debt; mainstream Western economists have been predicting a debt-based collapse in China for many years, despite the fact that yuan-denominated debt can be cancelled at any time by the PBofC (the sole legal issuer of Yuan). Now, as to unpaid salaries, unpaid overtime etc, that is indeed a problem which can be avoided, because China can supply the essentials for all it's citizens regardless of public debt, as noted above). Quote:
I already said there is no need for "new humans", China can increasingly run its economy with robots. And the gender imbalance can be dealt with by attracting women from other Asian countries. (Btw, population growth the world over must be contained, for a sustainable future on this planet). |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Ye Grappler on Jan 30th, 2022 at 5:50pm
Jesus - here's one .................. if I hinted at m.o.t.h.r.a. would she put in appearance to tell us that changing Australia Day is inevitable and drugs do no harm?
Wonder how the CCP plans to stop people shagging and breeding...... When it comes to robots - someone has to take that sucker up and keep it flying - and that person is called a ... pilot. Round here we've got our prime pilots and our pud-knockers ...... now what'll you two pud-knockers have? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 30th, 2022 at 6:03pm Quote:
;D Have you considered not drowning baby girls in a bucket of water at birth? Or is China too much like India - impossible to change the culture? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 30th, 2022 at 6:16pm freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 6:03pm:
Infanticide was common in both countries, as is usual with absolute poverty. China, being culturally pragmatic and able to adapt, has recently ended its one child policy. India is still benighted by its delusional religious and cultural traditions. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 30th, 2022 at 6:38pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 6:16pm:
Not so pragmatic as to not have imposed it in the first place. Romanian-style baby factories are the only option for the CCP which didn't turn out so well for Romania. As society becomes more affluent the average family size drops to below 2. Women control how many children they're prepared to have and affluent women do not want children that will confine their lives to endless motherhood. It's the core reason why the world population in developed countries will peak then naturally decline. Unfortunately, China has rapidly accelerated that decline, which now appears to be irreversible. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by issuevoter on Jan 30th, 2022 at 8:49pm
I am not convinced the end of the One Child policy was due to pragmatism. It seems more likely that the policy became unworkable.
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 30th, 2022 at 8:51pm
Do the Chinese hate Indians or something?
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 30th, 2022 at 9:00pm issuevoter wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 8:49pm:
It wasn't pragmatism, it was panic. They went from the 2-child policy to the 3-child policy within 6 years. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 30th, 2022 at 9:16pm
Don't underestimate the economic benefit China has received from the policy. While it is true that birth rates often (but not always - eg oil rich middle east countries) drop as a result of wealth, the opposite is often also true. The plague is often credited with helping to kickstart the industrial revolution in Europe. People went from living on a Malthusian knife edge to having plenty of spare food, land and other resources. They were instantly richer, merely in terms of the amount of land each person owned.
Not struggling just to feed a booming population no doubt helped China. As did the extra time and money parents could invest in educating their only child. And the far higher demands and expectations they had of that child. The western media does a lot of fear mongering about our declining or plateauing population, but it is far better than the alternative. Unless the CCP wants to use the little princes as cannon fodder, it has nothing to worry about either. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Ye Grappler on Jan 30th, 2022 at 9:27pm freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 6:03pm:
Lock in d) Eddie - impossible to change the culture. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by issuevoter on Jan 31st, 2022 at 8:36am freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 9:16pm:
The "elephant" in the world's room is over-population, and the Chinese were the only people who tried to do anything about it. I am sorry they have abandoned the policy, but it was probably unworkable in the long run. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 31st, 2022 at 8:43am issuevoter wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 8:36am:
It was short-sighted and mad. Aside from cultural male gender-preference, a rural nation's farmers needed males to work fields. It led to female infanticide and abandonment. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 31st, 2022 at 8:47am Quote:
To be fair, that was already going on. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 31st, 2022 at 8:54am freediver wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 8:47am:
And exponentially accelerated by the one-child policy. Also, they did not take into account the only-child phenomenon who are significantly more self-centred than those who grow up with siblings, leading to a very skewed general psychological profile of two generations. They're not called little emperors for nothing. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Jan 31st, 2022 at 11:03am |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Ye Grappler on Jan 31st, 2022 at 11:19am MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 8:54am:
Very good point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlUuNg6PEXA |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 31st, 2022 at 12:13pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 6:38pm:
Another example of blind ideology destroying the ability to think. A huge population living in absolute poverty must first bring population growth under control. Quote:
Pass Quote:
Correct (amazing, you fluke it, sometimes). Quote:
In developed countries, yes, Quote:
China was not a developed country when it introduced the one child policy. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 31st, 2022 at 12:18pm issuevoter wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 8:49pm:
Well, that fits more neatly with your "failure of authoritarianism" narrative.... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 31st, 2022 at 12:20pm freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 8:51pm:
No. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 31st, 2022 at 12:22pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 9:00pm:
Hardly sounds like panic. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 31st, 2022 at 12:28pm freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 9:16pm:
Yes. proving that Chinese intervention into population growth helped the transition to developed country status. Quote:
Agreed. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 31st, 2022 at 12:35pm Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 30th, 2022 at 9:27pm:
Wrong. A forward looking state like China, concentrating on national development with common prosperity, not hide-bound by conflicting religious mythology among poverty stricken "deplorables" (to borrow Clinton's word) as in India, will be able to be far more adaptable and pragmatic. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 31st, 2022 at 12:39pm issuevoter wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 8:36am:
A sensible post. The real problem in China was the resulting excess of male births. Meantime 'flat earth' mainstream economists are still bleating about the need for "growth".....as if the planet has infinite resources. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 31st, 2022 at 12:47pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 12:20pm:
The 'two fires' images published last year suggest otherwise. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 31st, 2022 at 12:47pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 8:43am:
No it wasn't, as I have already explained to you; a huge subsistence poverty population must first get pop. growth under control. Quote:
The correct solution would have been reduction in both male and female births; there would still have been a vast army of poor to work the fields, capable of growing enough food to feed the (lower) population. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 31st, 2022 at 12:52pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 12:22pm:
And then the removal of all restrictions just 2 months after the 3-child policy was established? It was panic. The loosening of restricting childbirth did not achieve the prayed-for baby-boom. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 31st, 2022 at 12:56pm Frank wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 11:03am: Interesting thesis, but it's over now. The US government is increasingly banning US companies from doing business in China; hopefully China can continue to develop its own technology (eg the space station) and trade with other countries. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 31st, 2022 at 12:59pm Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 11:19am:
Still. the policy has been changed as required, so..... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:06pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 12:47pm:
India and China are squabbling over borders drawn up by the Brits; and Indian 'democracy' ideologues scorn China, but Chinese people would rather have good relations with Indian people. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:09pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:06pm:
You speak for 'we, the Chinese people'? India hosts the Dalai Llama and the Tibetan government-in-exile and recruits Tibetans into its army to patrol the Tibetan border. India would likely also support Tibetan independence should the opportunity arise. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:24pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 12:52pm:
The policy started slowly (1 to 2 births over 6 years), but now the policy (to control population growth) has succeeded, it seems like the absurd mainstream narrative about declining workforce to look after an aging population is taking hold. Quote:
It's a question of maintaining the right population; now that China is a developed country it can prosper with a steady, or declining population (despite what deluded mainstream economists say). |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:36pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:24pm:
Doesn't the CCP claim China is a developing country? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:38pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:24pm:
And you know it is a success because? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:45pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:09pm:
Yes, unlike individual sovereignty ideologues who devolve into squabbling, grid-locked rabbles in democracies, the Chinese people are happy to co-operation with all other non-ideology based peoples. Quote:
The Qing empire is too recent in Chinese history for China to contemplate the permanent loss of Qing territory which occurred at the hands of Westeners in the "century of humiliation". And rising living standards in Tibet will cement re-establishment of Chinese sovereignty, accepted by the majority. As for the Dalai Lama: https://www.mfa.gov.cn/ce/cebel//eng/zt/zgxz/t265177.htm "The Dalai Lama has, in recent years, been telling the world he has stopped seeking "Tibetan independence" and turned towards a "middle way". By this, he says, he means "high-level autonomy" or "real autonomy" in Tibet and other Tibetan-inhabited areas within the framework of the Chinese Constitution. Only by doing so, he has argued, can Tibet best protect its unique traditional culture, religion and eco-environment, and can the unification and unity of China be maintained. (On March 10, 1959, the reactionary upper class in Tibet staged a counter-revolutionary armed rebellion. When it was suppressed, the Dalai Lama and his men fled to India, where he made March 10 as a remembrance "Resurrection Day".) On March 10, 2006, he followed his usual practice of delivering a speech, in which he said: "Making the Tibetan race become the real masters of their own fate and enjoy real autonomy constitutes my only wish. And this wish could be materialized as the PRC Constitution contains special stipulations for this." |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:49pm Quote:
You misunderstand the criticism. thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 12:20pm:
You like to single them out. Why? Something to do with the subcontinent thing? Quote:
Do you understand why people might criticise the policy? Quote:
Is drowning female babies at birth in a bucket of water pragmatic? Quote:
Economic growth does not have to mean more resource consumption. But there are plenty of resources that are in all practical respects, infinite. Quote:
There is more than one way to skin a cat. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:49pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:45pm:
Are they? Again, you seem to think you can speak for all Chinese. Or have you been indoctrinated? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:51pm
More like the CCP is happy to tell the Chinese people how to think and behave, and devote huge resources to maintaining the facade. Any leader who deludes himself into thinking the people appreciate this is liable to get stir fried.
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:55pm freediver wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:51pm:
It makes you wonder what the modern Chinese greeting to foreigners might be to determine if they are non-ideology based. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:57pm
Is "CCP sycophant" an ideology?
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 31st, 2022 at 2:11pm freediver wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:49pm:
But the fact remains. Quote:
I simply draw the comparison between the hide-bound ideology - a mishmash of backward religious ideology and adversarial 'democratic' politics in India, with a forward looking socialist China which has increased its per capita wealth 5 times as much as India in the last 4 decades. Quote:
Of course. Quote:
In a poverty ravaged nation, yes. Quote:
It does to mainstream flat-earth economic ideologues... as if Oz needs to continually grow its population to achieve rising living standards. Quote:
Agreed, so you will be able to understand the basic tenet of MMT, namely, the nation's constraint is resources, not money...which is always created out of thin air whether debt free by the government (as should be the case) or by private bankers who reserve the privilege for themselves, as in the current classical-economics-based monetary system. Quote:
There sure is, as I have drawn your attention to above. But unrestrained population growth in a huge subsistence population isn't one of them, if you want to lift the population out of poverty. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 31st, 2022 at 2:27pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 2:11pm:
Do you anticipate a return to the one-child policy if mainland Chinese start (as you say of Indians) breeding like rabbits? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 31st, 2022 at 2:36pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 2:27pm:
China has reached developed nation status; Chinese women won't allow a reversion to loss of their own control of family planning/pregnancy, unlike their unfortunate sisters in rural India... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 31st, 2022 at 2:39pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 2:36pm:
You're speaking for all Chinese women now? And another derogatory reference to Indians. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 31st, 2022 at 2:46pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 2:39pm:
All Chinese women are now in a position, like all Oz women, to decide their own number of pregnancies, unlike their sisters in poverty-stricken, rural India. Hint: women want their own lives today, above being baby machines. Quote:
Conditions associated with absolute poverty are not derogatory, just fact. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 31st, 2022 at 2:50pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 2:46pm:
And if they decide to breed like rabbits? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 31st, 2022 at 2:55pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 2:46pm:
Were you born in China? I guess you're not posting from China as that would be illegal, unless you've had approval from the CCP. Racism in China is rampant, and so common that locals aren't even aware that they're racist. Like the general dislike for black people. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Bobby. on Jan 31st, 2022 at 3:12pm |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Jan 31st, 2022 at 3:42pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 2:55pm:
Irrelevant to facts re population control in nations blighted by absolute poverty, infanticide, and lifting living standards. Quote:
Ozy ozy ozy, oi oi oi there's plenty of racism to go around... Quote:
..plenty of that to go around , too.... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 31st, 2022 at 4:11pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 3:42pm:
OK, but as an aside, are you Chinese living in Australia? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 31st, 2022 at 4:13pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 3:42pm:
Ozzy ozzy ozzy, oi oi oi isn't racist; low-brow light-hearted nationalism, but not racist. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 31st, 2022 at 4:18pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 2:36pm:
Given India ranks 99th in world for birth rates, you could have chosen, say, Afghanistan. Why India? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Jan 31st, 2022 at 6:38pm Quote:
Strawman. Quote:
You just agreed with the exact opposite of this. Quote:
Not if you ask them to give up the free ride on intellectual property law. Then they suddenly become a third world country again. Quote:
I'm not really convinced by his latest explanation either. Perhaps the CCP sees them as rivals, particularly in the cannon fodder department, so the propaganda ministry instructs its stooges to use them as an example wherever possible. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Jan 31st, 2022 at 6:50pm freediver wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 6:38pm:
Competitors in the cheap labour department, I'd bet. 6.4 Yuan to the US dollar. The Yuan is artificially low against the American dollar for a developed nation. I wonder why. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Jan 31st, 2022 at 7:56pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 2:11pm:
You are evil like the Chinese Communist Party that pays you and keeps you. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 1st, 2022 at 1:52pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 4:13pm:
OK, so Australians aren't racist, my apologies......only Chinese people are racist. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 1st, 2022 at 1:58pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 4:18pm:
Because I'm comparing the different experience in lifting people out of poverty in two similarly-sized countries. China 5 times as successful as India in the last 4 decades, with similar starting positions. Meanwhile Modi is creating religious conflict with Muslims, whereas China is containing it, as the upcoming visit to Xinjiang by Michelle Bachelet will confirm. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 1st, 2022 at 2:15pm freediver wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 6:38pm:
Next you will be telling us mainstream economists DON'T promote continuous growth as the way to lift living standards. Quote:
How? I'm claiming living standards can be raised regardless of population growth (except that population growth MUST be contained in an absolute poverty scenario) , the constraint is resources which nevertheless (despite not being infinite) are sufficiently available to eradicate poverty. Quote:
Too late. China is throwing huge resources (which it CAN afford) into developing its home-grown AI, IT and IC technologies. "China retained its position as the world's largest industrial robot market for the sixth year in a row by selling 156,000 units in 2018, with the nation accounting for 36 percent of total installation globally, several industry reports said." Quote:
Cannon fodder? Both countries have huge populations so there is no advantage for China there. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 1st, 2022 at 2:22pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 6:50pm:
No, China is moving up the value chain, to compete with the US and EU. Quote:
81 Yen to the Oz dollar, is the Yen artificially low? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 1st, 2022 at 2:24pm Frank wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 7:56pm:
What is the abortion rate in Australia cf with new 'unlimited child policy' in China? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 1st, 2022 at 3:17pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 1st, 2022 at 1:52pm:
Now you're just being petulant. Ozzy ozzy ozzy, oi oi oi is not racist chant; low-brow light-hearted nationalism, but not racist. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 1st, 2022 at 3:19pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 1st, 2022 at 2:22pm:
Not a good choice, Japan. The Japanese are paid 5 - 10 times in average wages than the Chinese, depending on the province, and excluding those Chinese (like migrant workers bussed in from villages to work in low to very low paying jobs, if paid at all). |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 1st, 2022 at 3:22pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 1st, 2022 at 1:58pm:
Why? You could have used much less populated poor countries which would have strengthened your case for China's economic 'miracle'. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 1st, 2022 at 3:22pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 4:11pm:
So, anyway. Are you a Chinese national living in Australia? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Feb 1st, 2022 at 3:42pm Quote:
The only way to continuously lift them is with continuous economic growth. That's a no brainer that you don't need an economist for. . But still, you are pushing a stupid strawman. Quote:
Read what I said, and read what you said in response. Do I really need to hold your hand on this? Quote:
But still not giving up the free rids on intellectual property rights, right? Quote:
I was suggesting the opposite. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Feb 1st, 2022 at 4:53pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 1st, 2022 at 2:24pm:
Less than half of China's. China: 28/1000 woman. Australia: 13.5/1000 |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 2:35pm freediver wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:57pm:
Rule by one party, chosen out of the collective, for the collective? I suppose it's an ideology |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 2:42pm freediver wrote on Jan 31st, 2022 at 1:51pm:
We all aspire to peace, (sustainable) national development, and prosperity. No-one needs to be "taught" to think that, it comes naturally. It's the "behave" (out of self-interest) bit that is the complication.....and reveals you error. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 3:52pm freediver wrote on Feb 1st, 2022 at 3:42pm:
The point is you DON'T need to increase population to lift living standards; and you DO need to contain population growth to escape absolute poverty. Quote:
Here is the exchange: You: "Economic growth does not have to mean more resource consumption". Me: "It does to mainstream flat-earth economic ideologues... as if Oz needs to continually grow its population to achieve rising living standards". We need to distinguish between: 1.lifting living standards 2.increasing population 3.increasing resource consumption. Quote:
You need to define which resources.....in any case the MMT revelation (in macroeconomics) is resources not money is the real issue, since money is always created out of thin air. But evil mainstream orthodoxy reserves the privilege of money creation to private bankers. Quote:
Wrong. In every field including chips, space technology, and AI, Biden and Trump before him have shut down access to US technology. Quote:
Either way a mad suggestion. You keep trying to defend the indefensible, eg, the madness of "freedom of belief" and the "right" of individuals to believe whatever nonsense they want - as in India, regardless of the catastrophic consequences on social cohesion. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 4:04pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 2:35pm:
You and the other CCP stooges here are more blinded by ideology than our labor and liberal cheerleaders. You have turned the CCP into a religion. That's the only way you could get people to describe the CCP as pragmatic compared to ideologically driven after it starved 50 million people to death in the name of socialism. Quote:
Knowing how to achieve it does not, but luckily not everyone kills 50 million people with their 'little mistakes'. Quote:
Not necessarily. You just need economic growth to exceed pop[ulation growth. As your India example demonstrates. Quote:
Well done. You correctly identified the strawman. Quote:
Iron ore comes to mind. Quote:
Can you explain why you are complaining about this? Are they supposed to give it to China for free? Quote:
It's odd that you keep talking about catastrophic consequences while defending the party that killed 50 million of your comrades. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 4:11pm Frank wrote on Feb 1st, 2022 at 4:53pm:
I note China's total is around 10 million per year, India with smaller population 15.6 million per year. Obviously living standards are inversely related to number of abortions, in this sense Oz seems relatively high |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 4:14pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 4:11pm:
Every time the CCP stooges look like hypocrites for criticising Australia over something the CCP does 100 times worse, they invariably change tack and attack India instead, like a well trained but unconscious racist reflex. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 4:14pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 4:11pm:
Presuming 28/1000 is accurate and, of course, would not take into account probable abortions in rural areas and outer provinces performed outside of hospitals. Most of China's published stats have limits imposed by the CCP. This has become evident with ludicrously low covid stats. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 4:27pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 3:52pm:
There you go with your India thing again. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 5:24pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 4:27pm:
Because it's an adversarial, 2 party, democratically 'elected' rabble.....incapable of matching a results-orientated consensus one-party meritocracy. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 5:31pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 4:14pm:
Ah.. so China is not only "racist" (while Oz is not...(!)....) it is also evil because of its high abortion rate relative to Oz with 5 times China's per capita income, forget about the abortion situation in India with 700 million still living in absolute poverty.... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 5:36pm freediver wrote on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 4:14pm:
That because India is an adversarial, two party 'democratically' elected rabble , like Oz. Naturally abortions are decreasing in China, as living standards rise. Nothing to do with race. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 6:02pm freediver wrote on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 4:04pm:
Nonsense. People in China just want to get on with their lives in an economy that is lifting the living standards of all at a faster rate than any nation in history. They despise the fake 'free election' BS, and don't need to concern themselves with the electoral cycle, rather they can contribute to the nation's sustainable development to the best of their ability and personal advantage. Quote:
Ancient history. As a matter of fact, China is now 3 times richer than when the 2008 Olympics were staged; that's growth for you. Quote:
Ancient history, as noted above. Achieving the fastest increase in living standards in history in a single generation is a result of pragmatic good governance. Quote:
Barely achieved in India, with 700 million (over half the population) still living in absolute poverty. Quote:
Iron ore is the one resource China currently needs from Oz, which has nothing to do with your evil mainstrean economic orthodoxy which reserves the privilege of money creation for private bankers. Quote:
China isn't complaining, it's doing what it has to do, in the face of US paranoia over losing its global hegemony. Quote:
Again you are comparing long past events (50 years ago) in China, with current religious unrest in India with 700 million of its "democratically free" citizens still living in absolute poverty. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 6:10pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 6:02pm:
Ancient history, as noted above. Achieving the fastest increase in living standards in history in a single generation is a result of pragmatic good governance. Quote:
Barely achieved in India, with 700 million (over half the population) still living in absolute poverty. Quote:
Iron ore is the one resource China currently needs from Oz, which has nothing to do with your evil mainstrean economic orthodoxy which reserves the privilege of money creation for private bankers. Quote:
China isn't complaining, it's doing what it has to do, in the face of US paranoia over losing its global hegemony. Quote:
Again you are comparing long past events (50 years ago) in China, with current religious unrest in India with 700 million of its "democratically free" citizens still living in absolute poverty. [/quote] ;D ;D ;D Gawd, you are a stupid, Bbwianesque spineless lying shill - for a supposedly 3-5,000 year old civilisation, the massacres, famines, tortures and disappearings of 50 years ago is now 'ancient history' just to cover up the gruesome monstrosities of the same people who are still in power. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 6:11pm Quote:
No it isn't. People alive today lost family members, and the CCP is going unpunished. Chinese people today still suffer the direct physical consequences, such as stunted growth. The CCP goes unpunished. Chinese people today still suffer from reduced cognitive skills. Especially those who had growing brains at the time when the CCP killed 50 million people. The CCP goes unpunished. The CCP airbrushes all this out of the dialogue, creating the risk that they repeat it. The CCP goes unpunished. The CCP lies to the people and tells that the the ideology that starved them do death: socialism, still has a place in China. Creating the risk of a push to re-embrace genuine socialism the next time China faces any kind of emergency. The CCP goes unpunished. Quote:
You have lost the plot and gone off on another ignorant tangent. Try to keep up with the discussion. Quote:
Why are you complaining about it then? Or have you lost the plot and you are just picking random passages from your CCP pamphlet to respond with? Quote:
You are the one who keeps comparing India and China, not me. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 3rd, 2022 at 2:07pm Frank wrote on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 6:10pm:
Too literal re ancient history? You are confusing Stalin with Xi; and as for Mao, he was confronted with the task of lifting 700 million people (almost the entire population of China back then) out of absolute poverty. Allowing rich overlords to manage the economy was certainly not going to achieve the goal, and mistakes were made along the way. But to say the CCP is the same now as it was in Mao's time is ridiculous; and your lies about the "gruesome monstrosities" including "genocide" in Xinjiang are soon to be exposed as lies, when Michelle Bachelet finalizes her visit to Xinjiang later this year. Speaking of "gruesome": when a rich county like Oz can't look after its nursing home residents, nor eradicate entrenched poverty, we know the system is dysfunctional and evil. And as for good governance, the spectacle of the governing party's leader being viciously verbally attacked by members of his own party makes one want to vomit. Still, that's all you can expect from an adversarial, two-party, 'elected' rabble of self-interested vicious clowns. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Feb 3rd, 2022 at 2:54pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 3rd, 2022 at 2:07pm:
So all the Chinese who have migrated to the West and are continuing to do so, are complete morons leaving paradise for hell. Not to mention the Chinese who seel asylum in the West. Year, right. Recent asylum claims were dominated by Chinese nationals. Source: Department of Home Affairs.(Illustration: ABC News/Jarrod Fankhauser) https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-10/chinese-nationals-claiming-refugee-asylum-surges-311-per-cent/10590478  china_refugees.jpeg (50 KB | 17
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Ye Grappler on Feb 3rd, 2022 at 5:50pm
Didn't notice our local Iranian couple complaining about our free election system... they walked in, got a friendly greeting, chatted with me who they met before, voted and commented on how different things were here. No guys with the evil eye standing at the door with AKs watching for dissidents, no religious court to hang the innocent if they vote wrongly, no pressure to vote for Allah's latest rep or suffer the pangs of Hell forever - and no virgins ..... no chance of the firing squad for belonging to the wrong faction or religious split or writing a satirical poem about the poor suffering religious cult leaders.... fatwah lot of good it'd do anyone anyway, to even try... any Muslim who attends the funeral of a non-Muslim friend is accused of riding those satanic hearses....
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Feb 3rd, 2022 at 7:04pm Quote:
Did he think it would be easier if he starved 50 million or so to death? Quote:
Was 50 million corpses a goal? Do you think it was better to starve them to death than let them make Nikes? Quote:
50 million corpses would be pretty gruesome. The CCP somehow made it mundane enough for you to brush off as a little error. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Feb 5th, 2022 at 8:29pm
America:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U-IXWaapx4 There is absolutely NOTHING soulless China can counter this with. Communist China is the death of human hope, soul, playful creativity. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 8th, 2022 at 2:23pm freediver wrote on Feb 3rd, 2022 at 7:04pm:
No. But there was no guide book to lift 700 million people out of absolute poverty, mistakes were made. Quote:
No. Quote:
It was a disaster, like the US civil war and the US led Vietnam war (since you want to talk about history). |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Feb 8th, 2022 at 6:35pm Quote:
Yes there was. Step one, remove head from arse. Step two, do not starve 50 million people to death in an effort to impose socialism on them. Quote:
No, it was fundamentally different. In war, you try to kill people. The CCP killed far more people by trying to help them, apparently because there was no guidebook on how to lift them out of poverty, despite millions of people from many different countries already being lifted out of poverty through well understood mechanisms. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 9th, 2022 at 12:15pm freediver wrote on Feb 8th, 2022 at 6:35pm:
That not a rule/quide book. Quote:
That was a mistake. Quote:
And war itself is not a mistake? (It was illegal and a mistake in the case of the US invasion of Iraq) Quote:
That's correct. Quote:
"Well understood" mechanisms? 70 years after the 'Cultural Revolution', poverty is still widespread in many countries around the globe. And there was certainly no guide to lift 700 million people out of absolute poverty - the largest poverty eradication program ever attempted in history - before 'socialism with Chinese characteristics' discovered the winning formula from 1980's on; namely, a pragmatic synthesis of capitalism and communism, never outlined in any 'guide book' before in history. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Feb 9th, 2022 at 5:56pm Quote:
Sure it is. It's from the official common sense guide to not starving 50 million of your citizens to death by trying to help feed them. It's from the chapter "little mistakes you might make along the way". Quote:
The cultural revolution is pretty much irrelevant to the modern understanding of how to eradicate poverty. China is still playing catchup, while pretending to reinvent the wheel. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 9th, 2022 at 6:13pm freediver wrote on Feb 9th, 2022 at 5:56pm:
The highlighted...a figment of your imagination. Quote:
You mean now, or in 1960 when China's entire 700 million people were living in absolute poverty? You are still confusing then with now. Quote:
The world's most extensive highspeed rail, world's most extensive 5G network, world's largest renewable energy sector, only the 2nd nation with a rover on Mars, soon to have the only operational space station.....the "catchup" happened some time ago... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Feb 9th, 2022 at 6:20pm Quote:
Nothing has changed to our understanding since 1960. The CCP has removed it's head from it's arse. Quote:
And yet China still call's itself a third world country when it comes to the free ride it is getting on intellectual property rights. The Average income in China is still a fraction of that in Australia and the US, and there is still a huge chunk of the population living in dire poverty. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Bobby. on Feb 9th, 2022 at 7:16pm |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by greggerypeccary on Feb 9th, 2022 at 7:18pm Bobby. wrote on Feb 9th, 2022 at 7:16pm: You got a Medicare card, Booby? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Lisa Jones on Feb 9th, 2022 at 7:30pm
Anyone else starting to think that the id greatdivide is a paid cyber troll?
I've never read so much non sensical Chinese Communist Party propaganda in my life! |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Lisa Jones on Feb 9th, 2022 at 7:41pm Frank wrote on Feb 2nd, 2022 at 6:10pm:
Barely achieved in India, with 700 million (over half the population) still living in absolute poverty. Quote:
Iron ore is the one resource China currently needs from Oz, which has nothing to do with your evil mainstrean economic orthodoxy which reserves the privilege of money creation for private bankers. Quote:
China isn't complaining, it's doing what it has to do, in the face of US paranoia over losing its global hegemony. Quote:
Again you are comparing long past events (50 years ago) in China, with current religious unrest in India with 700 million of its "democratically free" citizens still living in absolute poverty. [/quote] ;D ;D ;D Gawd, you are a stupid, Bbwianesque spineless lying shill - for a supposedly 3-5,000 year old civilisation, the massacres, famines, tortures and disappearings of 50 years ago is now 'ancient history' just to cover up the gruesome monstrosities of the same people who are still in power. [/quote] Please read. GreatDivide is a pro CCP paid cyber troll. "The US think-tank Jamestown Foundation is reporting that China is employing an extensive network of more than 20 million “internet commentators” — trolls tasked with artificially amplifying content favorable to the Chinese government." Read more here .... https://www.global-influence-ops.com/china-uses-22-million-strong-internet-troll-army-to-shape-online-discourse/ |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 10th, 2022 at 11:21am freediver wrote on Feb 9th, 2022 at 6:20pm:
Re the West: true, that's why poverty remains entrenched in the West despite material advancement. Whereas the CCP has changed as you say, which is why common prosperity is rapidly being attained in China. Quote:
China is no longer "getting a free ride", the US is decoupling as fast as it can...but it's too late. Chinese home-grown AI will soon overtake the US. Quote:
And yet China has eradicated absolute poverty AND built a rapidly increasing middle class set to double in size from the present 400 million, to 800 million by 2030. While Oz still has aboriginal people living in 3rd world conditions. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Lisa Jones on Feb 10th, 2022 at 1:05pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 27th, 2022 at 11:09am:
Oh god, the cement has already set.... Quote:
1. Eradication of poverty in modern AI and IT assisted economies is not utopia. 2. The CCP has the support of >90% of the Chinese population. 3. No-one in HK has 'disappeared', though some separatist democracy goons have emigrated to other Western countries. They are welcome to the adversarial, gridlocked, achieve-nothing rabbles aka "democracy". [/quote] Oh so you live in China then. That's where you're posting from. My bad. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Lisa Jones on Feb 10th, 2022 at 1:07pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 11:21am:
And yet China has eradicated absolute poverty AND built a rapidly increasing middle class set to double in size from the present 400 million, to 800 million by 2030. While Oz still has aboriginal people living in 3rd world conditions. [/quote] Ahh so was that your motivation in moving to China to live there and escape destructive democracy. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 10th, 2022 at 1:48pm Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 1:07pm:
Dear Lisa, this is a debating forum, not a social club. My personal circumstances need be of no interest to you. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Lisa Jones on Feb 10th, 2022 at 1:53pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 1:48pm:
Oh I know what this forum is all about. It's interesting that you would conclude that I'm somehow interested in your personal circumstances. I can assure you I'm not. YOU yes YOU are constantly extolling the wondrous virtues of the CCP so it's only natural for your audience to assume you're in a position to be able to because you live in China and therefore know what you're posting about. First hand. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Feb 10th, 2022 at 2:04pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 11:21am:
By redefining it to mean "less than $2 a day". China does a lot of that, redefining. Quote:
A case of "You can lead a whore to culture but you can't make her think". |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 10th, 2022 at 2:42pm Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 1:53pm:
Yet for the last half dozen replies you have made totally irrelevant comments about me, rather than debating the topic. Quote:
Just to be clear: I am extolling the virtues of common prosperity and sustainable development for ALL nations, impossible in an 'invisible hand' competitive free market system in which profits flow to the most able without regard for the common welfare. Quote:
Well I hope I have now dismissed that assumption once and for all. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Lisa Jones on Feb 10th, 2022 at 2:47pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 2:42pm:
Well I hope I have now dismissed that assumption once and for all. [/quote] No Your posts ARE extolling the virtues of the CCP. Your posts do so by commenting as though you're it's on their behalf. Are you now trying to say that you're not a resident of China and that your comments about China are based on what you have read? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Lisa Jones on Feb 10th, 2022 at 2:50pm
Whilst here Greatdivide....tell the forum what you think/believe occurred at Tiananmen Square on June 4, 1989.
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 10th, 2022 at 2:51pm Frank wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 2:04pm:
Wrong. China subsidizes housing, healthcare and education for its low wage workers, so the $2 a day is irrelevant as a measure of the actual standard of living of low wage workers. As recognized by Ellen Brown: https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-american-dream-is-alive-and-well-in-china/ The American Dream Is Alive and Well—in China Quote:
No, a case of evil 'survival of the fittest', dog eat dog capitalism. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 10th, 2022 at 2:56pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 2:42pm:
So what is it? Are you a Chinese national? Are you posting from China? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 10th, 2022 at 3:01pm Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 2:47pm:
Well...if you insist....but to repeat: I am extolling the virtues of common prosperity and sustainable development for ALL nations, impossible in an 'invisible hand' competitive free market system in which profits flow to the most able without regard for the common welfare. Quote:
The sad fact is the CCP is the only party in the world currently extolling the virtues of common prosperity. Quote:
Addressed above. Time for you defend your 'invisible hand', competitive free market system in which profits flow to the most able without regard for the common welfare. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Lisa Jones on Feb 10th, 2022 at 3:05pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 2:51pm:
Oh dear 😐 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7546956/ |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 10th, 2022 at 3:09pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 1:48pm:
Your status as a Chinese national is of particular importance as it is against the law for a Chinese national to discus or debate anything that is not in the interests of furthering the totalitarian rule of the CCP. And, given it was Chinese nationals who bashed Drew Pavlou, your status as a Chinese national (particularly if you are in Australia) is of considerable importance. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Lisa Jones on Feb 10th, 2022 at 3:09pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 2:56pm:
He refuses to come clean on that. Nor can he answer the question I've asked him 3 times now. What does Greatdivide think/believe happened at Tiananmen Square on June 4, 1989 He's pretending not to read my question. He knows why. So do we. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Lisa Jones on Feb 10th, 2022 at 3:11pm Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 3:05pm:
Hey Greatdivide (posting from China) : This link doesn't support the pro CCP propaganda you're pushing. However, “a decent home for all” remains a distant reality in China, owing to the multi-dimensional inequalities behind the overall high rate of homeownership (Huang & Li, 2014; Wang & Murie, 2000). Millions of urban poor, young adults, and rural-urban migrants continue to be denied basic housing, and homeownership remains an unachievable dream. Many have to live in boxy rooms in crumble shacks, low-rises in dusty suburban villages, and tiny dark dorms in bomb shelters and basements under glossy apartment buildings (He et al., 2017; Huang & Yi, 2015; Ma & Xiang, 1998; Wang et al., 2010; Wu, 2002). Reminiscence of worker insects in a colony and mice in underground cellars, they are called “ant tribe” (yizu) and “mouse tribe” (shuzu), respectively. In particular, younger generations, who grow up in the reform era and do not have access to housing subsidies, face tremendous challenges to attain decent housing and achieve homeownership especially in large cities where housing has becomes prohibitively unaffordable. Intergenerational transfer has become indispensable for the lucky few young adults to achieve homeownership (Li & Yi, 2007a). Furthermore, with the persistence of the hukou (household registration) System, millions of migrants continue to be denied access to subsidized housing in most cities. Thus despite massive development of affordable housing by the government in recent years, migrants still have to resort to informal housing at marginalized locations, forming slum like settlements (Huang & Yi, 2015). Many cities even require local household registration for households to purchase housing or set strict housing purchase limit for migrants, which prevents better-off migrants to become homeowners (Jia et al., 2018). A great many of them thus have to gamble all their savings on extra-legal housing built on the collective land, known as small property right housing (He et al., 2019). For these disadvantaged groups, homeownership and even a decent rental home are beyond their reach. Ok. Anyone know where Freediver is? Might need to let him know about this topic I reckon. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 10th, 2022 at 3:14pm Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 3:11pm:
If he is posting from China, he is either doing so illegally or (if legal) his posts have been reviewed and approved by the CCP's security bureau before posting. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Lisa Jones on Feb 10th, 2022 at 3:22pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 3:14pm:
Have a read of his posts. He's a paid cyber troll. He is being monitored and watched. I've let him think he's posting something worth reading. He's only copying and pasting slabs of Wiki and re posting them across 4 topics in various sub forums on OzPol. He's also unable to answer specific questions which cut at the core of CCP abuse of human rights. I've tried to put pro democracy student protests and the treatment of Muslims in China. All I'm getting is deafening silence. And I've tried asking him many times over a 7 day period across 4 topics. His knowledge of Australian high school and university curricula is lacking. I've caught him out a few times wrt economics and politics taught at those levels. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 10th, 2022 at 3:25pm Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 3:22pm:
It is illegal for a Chinese national to discuss issues about CCP human rights abuses or any topic deemed critical of CCP policies or actions. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Lisa Jones on Feb 10th, 2022 at 3:28pm
Oh dear 😐
The Ministry of Culture of the People's Republic of China now holds regular training sessions, where participants are required to pass an exam after which they are issued a job certification.[19] As of 2008, the total number of 50-cent operatives was estimated to be in the tens of thousands,[1] and possibly as high as 280,000–300,000.[19][32] Every large Chinese website is instructed by the Information Office to create a trained team of Internet commentators.[19] According to the Chinese Communists' opinions of the recruitment of university Work Committee (tentative), the university Internet commentators are mainly selected from cadres or student cadres at the local CCP Publicity Department of universities, Youth League, Office of Academic Affairs, Network Center, Admissions Employment Department, Political Theory Department, Teaching Department and other units.[33] The court of Qinghe District, Huai'an organized a team of 12 commentators.[34] Gansu Province hired 650 commentators, sorted by their writing abilities.[35] Suqian Municipal Publicity Department's first 26 commentators' team were reported by Yangtse Evening Post in April 2005.[36] According to high-profile independent Chinese blogger Li Ming, the pro-Chinese government web commentators must number "at least in the tens of thousands".[37] A 2016 Harvard study estimated that the group posts about 488 million social media comments per year.[38] According to an article published by Xiao Qiang on his website China Digital Times, a leaked propaganda directive, sent to 50 Cent Party Internet commentators, stated their objective was the following:[39][40] In order to circumscribe the influence of Taiwanese democracy, in order to progress further in the work of guiding public opinion, and in accordance with the requirements established by higher authorities to "be strategic, be skilled," we hope that internet commentators conscientiously study the mindset of netizens, grasp international developments, and better perform the work of being an internet commentator. For this purpose, this notice is promulgated as set forth below: (1) To the extent possible make America the target of criticism. Play down the existence of Taiwan. (2) Do not directly confront [the idea of] democracy; rather, frame the argument in terms of "what kind of system can truly implement democracy.” (3) To the extent possible, choose various examples in Western countries of violence and unreasonable circumstances to explain how democracy is not well-suited to capitalism. (4) Use America's and other countries' interference in international affairs to explain how Western democracy is actually an invasion of other countries and [how the West] is forcibly pushing [on other countries] Western values. (5) Use the bloody and tear-stained history of a [once] weak people [i.e., China] to stir up pro-Party and patriotic emotions. (6) Increase the exposure that positive developments inside China receive; further accommodate the work of maintaining [social] stability.[39][40] |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Lisa Jones on Feb 10th, 2022 at 3:31pm
Hey Greatdivide
I found where you're from! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party I came across some of your colleagues over on Facebook. Yeah unfortunately I got your paid internet buddies banned 😂🤣😆 |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Lisa Jones on Feb 10th, 2022 at 3:41pm
Damn!
Greatdivide has suddenly logged off 😂🤣😆 This is what usually happens after I expose these @rseholes. In my Facebook group I co admin with 2 others...we had the same shyte happen there. These trolls are employed and paid by the CCP and talk utter nonsense (because it's obvious transparent propaganda). What always gets them stumped is the question of student protests and human rights. Ask them the specific question re Tiananmen Square example : what do you think/believe happened on 4 June 1989 in Tiananmen Square? They will not be able to answer you (CCP are watching them and read their posts for quantity and quality) OR They will state that nothing really happened on that day in China. Either way ... you've sprung them. I've done that a few times on Facebook as I've stated before. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 10th, 2022 at 5:13pm Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 3:11pm:
Quote:
Can't you read. I already said I'm not pushing any propaganda, and many times even today I have invited you to debate the issues, which you refuse - or are incapable of doing. But I see you are capable of finding something to post, that's better than nothing. Let's have a look. Quote:
The issue is simultaneously lifting out of absolute poverty and housing 1.4 billion people, 700 million of whom are still in relative (not absolute) poverty. But even so China has achieved more in this regard (in such a short time) than any nation in history. Whereas Oz can't even house all its 25 million people, even though per capita income in Oz is 5 times higher than China. "Pre-pandemic, homelessness in Australia had climbed by 14% to around 290,000 people in the four years to 2018-19". Disgraceful, such is the greed of the "free" capitalists. Quote:
What are those 'ancient' figures from 1998 and 2002 doing as references? China's wealth has triple since then. Quote:
And yet housing ownership is going backwards in the US, as noted in the same article. Quote:
again 2007 ...obsolete stats, 2015 rapidly receding into the past. whereas massive development of affordable housing continues apace. Quote:
Yet, the article began by saying home ownership has reached 87% in China, much higher than the US (see below). Quote:
And that's why China is now clamping down on real estate as an investment vehicle, with the CCP asserting "houses are for living in", soon after the Western-style Evergrande real estate investment disaster. A return to the CCP's socialist ideal is certainly called for. Quote:
And yet (from the same article: "With privatization of existing public housing and massive provision of private housing mainly in the ownership sector, China has transformed itself from a country dominated by public renters to one of the countries with the highest rate of homeownership within a very short span of just two decades. Today China is a country of homeowners with more than 90% of households owning homes (87% in urban and 96% in rural China) (Clark, Huang, & Yi, 2019). At the same time, more than 20% Chinese households own multiple homes, higher than many developed nations (Huang et al., 2020). This achievement is particularly impressive and is in sharp contrast to the recent decline of homeownership rate in the U.S., Western Europe and other developed countries". The article appears schizophrenic, because it ignores the time required to create good housing for 1.4 billion people. Quote:
He's not capable of contributing anything useful, like all deluded "free" sovereign individual ideologues. Quote:
You are in need of much more knowledge yourself. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 10th, 2022 at 5:25pm Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 3:41pm:
Had to go shopping, and also read your long quoted article, to which I have now replied (unlike your usual style of ignoring the debate). Quote:
Not with me: I'll easily demolish any manifestation of your 'survival of the fittest' dystopia. Quote:
Facebook...lost $20 billion last week; I never use it. Quote:
Short term memory loss? I already addressed that issue yesterday. And you wouldn't know "human rights" if you tripped over them. Quote:
Wrong on both counts. It's long past like the US national guard murdering 6 uni students during the Vietnam war protests. Today Chinese citizens record >90% satisfaction with the central government, and increasing revulsion with the Western democracies. Quote:
You aren't capable of "springing" anything on me. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 10th, 2022 at 5:45pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 1:48pm:
Are you a Chinese national? Are you posting from China? Your status as a Chinese national is of particular importance as it is against the law for a Chinese national to discuss or debate anything that is not in the interests of furthering the totalitarian rule of the CCP. And, given it was Chinese nationals who bashed Drew Pavlou, your status as a Chinese national (particularly if you are in Australia) is of considerable importance. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 10th, 2022 at 5:57pm Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 3:28pm:
A very necessary task, though probably doomed to fail, because some evil "freedom-loving" sovereign individual ideologues in Taiwan would rather initiate WW3 than examine their own deluded ideology, despite the fact they were still claiming to be the sole government of China until recently. [The best bet for China is to continue its amazing rate of development until such time it can tell the Pentagon where to go....] Quote:
As I said.. very necessary work, as part of re-educating evil deluded "freedom loving" sovereign individual ideologues only interested in looking after their own sorry arses ...since there is "no such thing as society"... (I wonder if that silly bitch is in hell, where she belongs...) Quote:
Mostly all sensible propositions. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 10th, 2022 at 5:58pm
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Feb 10th, 2022 at 6:21pm Quote:
Try reading what I actually post. If you do not understand it, ask what I mean instead of picking a random response from your CCP pamphlet. Here it is again: And yet China still call's itself a third world country when it comes to the free ride it is getting on intellectual property rights. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 10th, 2022 at 6:26pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 5:45pm:
I think you need to answer these questions. The CCP has expended a lot of effort to avoid its media content via its distributors like CGTN &etc from being publicly tagged as controlled all or in part by the CCP. It has been co-opting foreign organisations to publish CCP propaganda under their own brand names to avoid this tagging. Are you a Chinese national? Are you posting from China? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 10th, 2022 at 10:01pm freediver wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 6:21pm:
I did read your post, and you are talking garbage. China is no longer getting a free IP ride, and it no longer calls itself a 3rd world country..... since it officially announced the eradication of absolute poverty from the last remaining such remote rural groups last year (2021). |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 10th, 2022 at 10:05pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 6:26pm:
test |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Lisa Jones on Feb 11th, 2022 at 2:02am freediver wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 6:21pm:
https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1583380619/1890 |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Lisa Jones on Feb 11th, 2022 at 2:03am MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 5:45pm:
https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1583380619/1890 |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 11th, 2022 at 8:01am thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 10:05pm:
I guess that response was to turn the page on this forum. It is important that you answer these questions. If you are a Chinese national in China and you are illegally using a VPN, then that is significant as opposed to being a Chinese national in China permitted by the security bureau to access foreign websites to post CCP-approved propaganda. Are you a Chinese national? Are you posting from China? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by mothra on Feb 11th, 2022 at 8:38am
Look out FD! The CCP are infiltrating your forum!
Next, there'll be about 8 boomers on canes writing furious letters to Today Tonight! |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 11th, 2022 at 8:42am mothra wrote on Feb 11th, 2022 at 8:38am:
If only that's all it was. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 11th, 2022 at 1:08pm mothra wrote on Feb 11th, 2022 at 8:38am:
Meanwhile f**wit Dutton is accusing Albo of being more desirable to the CCP....as if Albo can help that, when the ALP is as anti-China as the best of them... Sheer evil sovereign individual ideology responsible for the chaos in the world. For a more rational approach to China : https://academic.oup.com/cjip/article/11/1/1/4844055 Chinese Values vs. Liberalism: What Ideology Will Shape the International Normative Order? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 11th, 2022 at 1:09pm cancel |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 11th, 2022 at 2:52pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 11th, 2022 at 1:09pm:
test, eh? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Feb 11th, 2022 at 7:45pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 11th, 2022 at 1:08pm:
A complete load of Chinese agit-prop bullshit. Chinese Values vs. Liberalism: What Ideology Will Shape the International Normative Order? Xuetong Yan The Chinese Journal of International Politics, Volume 11, Issue 1, Spring 2018, Pages 1–22, https://doi.org/10.1093/cjip/poy001 Published: 08 February 2018 "Use the past to serve the present," declares the website of the China Centre of Jesus College, Cambridge. It seems a sensible motto, until you know that it’s the first half of a maxim of Chairman Mao’s, and that the second half is ‘make the foreign serve China’. The National Socialist Republic of China. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Setanta on Feb 11th, 2022 at 9:32pm
China, the ultimate tall poppy syndrome state. You should have a look at the tech companies they have decapitated in the last year or so. You get your head above Xi's level, your company is gone and so are you.
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 12th, 2022 at 12:05pm Frank wrote on Feb 11th, 2022 at 7:45pm:
Refuted in another thread: (from 'Chinese Values vs. Liberalism: What Ideology Will Shape the International Normative Order'? "The Christian tradition values the concept of equality as one enjoined by the natural law of life.36 However, due to inherent genetic differences and divergent social environments, disparities between human beings are inevitable, as apparent in variances in intelligence, strength, height, weight, and athleticism, as well as in social differences rooted in family background, education, peers, and so on. Focusing on equality without taking these differences into consideration is equivalent to advocating the jungle law of unquestioned equal rights and zero distinctions between the advantaged and the disadvantaged. The individualist value of liberalism thus often leads to conflict rather than cooperation among human beings. Even when defined in terms of competitive opportunity,37 under circumstances where violent means are the best option for winning competitions, absolute equality can still generate life-and-death rivalry. The war between different religious groups in Libya since 2011 is a case in point.38 Benevolence (ren) is the core idea and social norm of Confucianism, which as a governing principle calls upon state leaders to empathise with and care for their peoples". |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 12th, 2022 at 12:20pm Setanta wrote on Feb 11th, 2022 at 9:32pm:
Not the tall poppy syndrome, but a determination to achieve individual success AND 'common prosperity'. Those tech companies often have scant relation to enabling prosperous development in the real economy. (Facebook in the US is a good example: https://www.teenvogue.com/story/facebook-monopoly-communications Facebook Is a Monopoly — Here’s Why That Matters The same issues with 'big tech' are arising in China, which the CCP is dealing with. And generally the Chinese CEOs are in agreement with the state's policy reforms. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 12th, 2022 at 12:21pm Setanta wrote on Feb 11th, 2022 at 9:32pm:
test |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 13th, 2022 at 9:59am Setanta wrote on Feb 11th, 2022 at 9:32pm:
Without doubt. The Xi faction has been at war internally with his rivals within the CCP. It's likely that Xi has destroyed what he perceives as an oligarchy of technocrats who can, and likely would, threaten the totalitarian rule of the CCP. Given he has destroyed independent journalism within China, the destruction (and murder if necessary) of Chinese billionaires and tech leaders is a logical step for a dictator. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 13th, 2022 at 9:59am
dup
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Victor Sunny on Feb 13th, 2022 at 10:55am
https://youtu.be/o34cBDmSuiI
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 13th, 2022 at 10:58am Victor Sunny wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 10:55am:
I read on another thread that you are from a rural Chinese culture, so you (or you extended family) would have experienced mistreatment or negative bias at the hands of the CCP. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by athos on Feb 13th, 2022 at 11:24am https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pwghsjbdkeo Australia seems to be rapidly becoming an oppressive fascist country. The free world must do something about that British penal colony. "Australia is in a way a feudal extension from Britain. It never did make the peoples breach with right of nobility and authority. That was done in the US. Influenced by still instituted European Viking settled in America of peoples right to own property and land, and moreover to claim land, as Viking law allowed. The newcomer came to Australia under the crown as convicts that did not claim land and assume the right to defend themselves as led to making of the United States. By this neither were the native people recognized as free people, they were treated like convicts from the very beginning of no rights. All this needs to be corrected or there will civil uprisings, Australia needs a settled constitution of equal rights and of historical respect". Thorsteinn Hakonarson |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 1:43pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 9:59am:
And yet the goal of common prosperity is recently re-affirmed by all "factions" of the CCP Quote:
Certainly the greed of the rich is always ready to destroy common prosperity, as evidenced in the West. Quote:
As noted above, sovereign individuals - which we all are INSTINCTIVELY, can be murderous...as is evidenced all around the world today. The task of creating a prosperous society in all respects therefore requires constant vigilance. As for "independent journalism", the video supplied by Victor Sunny should dispel ANY pretense that Western journalism re China is anything other than ideological garbage - when it is not fighting among itself, usually over the most trivial issues. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 1:43pm
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 1:46pm Victor Sunny wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 10:55am:
Marvelous spontaneous interview, thanks. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 1:50pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 10:58am:
And yet he is voicing support for the CCP and its policies. Your point is....? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 1:59pm athos wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 11:24am:
Though the current covid death toll in "the Land of the Free" is now over 900,000, exceeding that of the spanish flu.... and the current stand-off on the Canadian border, and violent covid protests all around the 'sovereign individual' Western world, and disagreement with authorities who are inclined to follow mainstream medical advice, reveals how unstable all the 'viking' sovereign individual' nations are, regardless of historical origins. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 2:01pm
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Feb 13th, 2022 at 2:15pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 2:01pm:
Are you still trying to figure out how to post? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Bobby. on Feb 13th, 2022 at 2:17pm
Hi FD,
your forum has become infested with traitorous, communist sympathisers. Do you think you can out argue them? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 2:34pm freediver wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 2:15pm:
No, the page doesn't come up in sequence (on this thread only....). Anyway have a shot at debating my reply to your post, namely: The current covid death toll in "the Land of the Free" is now over 900,000, exceeding that of the spanish flu.... and the current stand-off on the Canadian border, and violent covid protests all around the 'sovereign individual' Western world, and disagreement with authorities who are inclined to follow mainstream medical advice, reveals how unstable all the 'viking' sovereign individual' nations are, regardless of historical origins. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 2:36pm Bobby. wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 2:17pm:
Can you name another " traitorous, communist sympathiser" other than myself? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 2:37pm
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Feb 13th, 2022 at 2:39pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 2:36pm:
That's easy. Athos and sunny. You guys stick out like a sore thumb. You don't even appear to realise. You have drunk so much CCP gatorade you might as well be an alien. thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 2:34pm:
Are you talking about the death toll from the Chinese virus? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Feb 13th, 2022 at 3:03pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 2:36pm:
Victor, Athos, Bbwian, puddle duck, Musta Faken. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 13th, 2022 at 3:14pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 1:50pm:
Of course he is. He needs permission from the CCP to post to this site. We all know what would happen to him and his family if he posts anti CCP statements. In China rural people are second class citizens. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 3:30pm freediver wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 2:39pm:
The virus that is presumed to have originated in a Wuhan wet market? Yes. Death toll in the US: >900,000. In China, c.5,000. Meanwhile the division in the deluded 'sovereign individual' West is reaching breaking point.... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 3:40pm Frank wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 3:03pm:
Victor isn't traitorous, he lives in China. Athos...he's Libertarian (from the 'viking' posting); puddle duck? Musta is Libertarian, I think. Brian is certainly mainstream Ozzy Left, most definitely of the "China threat" persuasion. So I reckon I'm the only actual "traitor" here, according to your delusional, ultimately instinctive and irrational, sovereign individual ideology. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Feb 13th, 2022 at 3:41pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 3:30pm:
So the CCP is winning now because it is killing Americans rather than its own citizens? Quote:
;D Another good example of why the CCP doesn't want its own citizens knowing the truth about the Great Chinese Famine. They are doing it again. You just finished explaining to us how there is no point letting the Chinese people know the truth about the famine, yet you expect us to believe this BS? https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/millions-dead-from-coronavirus-in-china-separating-fact-from-fiction--c-978217 But the true extent of the country’s infection and death toll remains unknown. “President Xi Jinping told his party officials that this is a peoples’ war against COVID-19, and they would fail if cases rose in their local areas,” Shoebridge said. “He sacked the Hubei party leadership as cases in the province continued to rise. “After that, the number of reported cases in China magically took a radical drop. The burden of proof, Shoebridge says, now lies with the Chinese authorities, to explain to the world how the country where the pandemic began became the lucky country in the per capita toll COVID-19 has taken on its citizens. Basically, the CCP is again killing large numbers of it's own citizens with propaganda and self delusion. How many Chinese citizens do you think died because the party machine under-reported how bad the situation is, leading to an inadequate response from Beijing (which was also a cause of the Great Chinese Famine). Do you think that once again, the rural poor are suffering the most from the CCP's brutal indifference and manipulation? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 13th, 2022 at 3:43pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 3:30pm:
1.4 billion and only 5000 deaths! There’d be 5000 deaths a month from food poisoning alone in China. The cover up of deaths is so laughable, no where in the world bothers with them, but estimates the true figure is in the millions. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 3:53pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 3:14pm:
Why would a Chinese person need to come here to post anti CCP propaganda? The entire ideologically blind Western media is performing that task quite well already.... Quote:
You haven't watched his video (featuring a US guy interviewing a Chinese woman; the eradication of absolute poverty last year was achieved by building telecoms and road infrastructure to the most remote villages in the country, and personal intervention by public officials of every last family, to ensure they can engage in a productive income (none of the welfare cop-out nonsense of the West's neoliberal economies). |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:15pm freediver wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 3:41pm:
No: the CCP is winning because it is saving it own citizens, while the US mal-administration is killing US citizens. Quote:
"Just finished explaining" ....what? The mistakes of the pre 1980's are long past. Now whether you believe current stats is up to you. Quote:
"Fewer still would be aware it was founded and is run by a group of Chinese Americans associated with the Falun Gong spiritual movement, which the Communist Party of China has outlawed". See the problem? These 'sovereign individual' ideologue traitors, like Falun Gong, are behind this nonsense. Quote:
Certainly this much is certain: crooked Western media supporting its sovereign individual delusion will be the last source to look for the truth about China. Quote:
No. Victor's video has it straight from a chinese citizen. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:15pm
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:17pm
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:19pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 3:43pm:
test |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by freediver on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:20pm
What is going on with the test posts? Have you forgotten how to work the internet?
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:25pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 3:43pm:
Yes that's what you can achieve when you lock-down the economy at the first sign of an outbreak. Quote:
a big number because of the big population, but not covid deaths.... Quote:
Whatever, the breakdown of authority in the democracies with the anti vaxxers etc appears close at hand... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:31pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 3:53pm:
Given none of you will answer the questions of whether you are Chinese nationals and whether you are posting from China, I’m assuming you’re all Chinese nationals posting from China. I know you can’t post anything not pre-approved by your security bureau, but I’ll post you the news. The mistreatment of rural Chinese and migrant workers is well known by foreigners outside China. Those dreaded residency cards makes sure the second class rural and migrant workers do not have free access to services within cities. Also, you seem to speak a lot for the others. Are you higher in security clearance than they are? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:31pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:25pm:
Whatever, the breakdown of authority in the democracies with the anti vaxxers etc appears close at hand... [/quote] Achieve lock down! Yes we’ve heard how they do that! Basicly COVID zero!! Bus them out, call the area COVID zero, the bus them back and call the other area COVID zero… Bash a few old women on the way through |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:31pm
Dup
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:32pm
Dup
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:32pm
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:32pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:31pm:
test |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:42pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:31pm:
Who cares?.... The point is you can't continue the debate, being a blind sovereign individual ideologue. (no personal insight...the human condition...) Quote:
you know SFA as expected, given your blind sovereign individual ideology. Quote:
The business of lifting 700 million people in the countryside out of rural poverty is not an easy task, meanwhile your own evil ideology has aboriginals living in worse than absolute poverty for decade after decade, because they are drinking themselves to death aka genocide... Quote:
I speak for myself. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:43pm
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:47pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:31pm:
(I'll use your worthless reply as a 'trip' to bring my post up..here goes) Aha. 2 hours later this comes up..in order to make my post #306 appear. Don't know what's wrong, only happens on this thread. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:47pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:32pm:
test |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 13th, 2022 at 5:03pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:42pm:
The business of lifting 700 million people in the countryside out of rural poverty is not an easy task, meanwhile your own evil ideology has aboriginals living in worse than absolute poverty for decade after decade, because they are drinking themselves to death aka genocide... Quote:
I speak for myself. [/quote] You don’t speak for yourself, you post subject to the approval of Security bureau officers. Nothing you post here is of any worth as it would be identical to all others who post at your clearance level. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Feb 13th, 2022 at 6:17pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:42pm:
Like parrots. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Feb 14th, 2022 at 11:00am thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 3:40pm:
Well, you ARE Chinese. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by athos on Feb 14th, 2022 at 1:33pm freediver wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 2:15pm:
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Feb 14th, 2022 at 1:59pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 3:30pm:
How do you know that? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Feb 14th, 2022 at 9:08pm Frank wrote on Feb 14th, 2022 at 1:59pm:
*** crikits ***** ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by athos on Feb 15th, 2022 at 10:27am freediver wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 2:39pm:
What about "traitorous, lefty globalist sympathizers"? :D |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by athos on Feb 15th, 2022 at 10:48am MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:31pm:
You definitely need people like me in your sterile Anglo fake news media environment to open your eyes and find out the truth. As a good Christian, you should repent and say thank you, Athos, for your selfless efforts to re-educate us. :) |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by athos on Feb 15th, 2022 at 10:52am Frank wrote on Feb 14th, 2022 at 11:00am:
Of course I am Chinese, well you don't even need a brain to understand that. Are you a closet Pom or member of MI6? :) |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by athos on Feb 15th, 2022 at 11:08am freediver wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 2:39pm:
Freediver, it's very disappointing to see you lose patience with me. I thought you were much more objective and tolerant when confronted with different opinions. Are you member of MI6? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 15th, 2022 at 11:37am athos wrote on Feb 15th, 2022 at 10:48am:
Ah yes! All that freedom of the press under the CCP! Even the CCP admits that press freedom doesn't exist in China. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 15th, 2022 at 2:26pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 5:03pm:
Nope, I speak for myself. Quote:
And yet no-one else here, co-incidentally, is arguing for a UNSC minus veto (Doc Evatt's 1946 vision) directed by the 'benevolent authority' of an ICJ. Meanwhile the extent of Western paranoia re China's rise is reaching new heights of stupidity: https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202202/1252249.shtml Exclusive: US-based PR professional receives death threats for contract to promote Beijing 2022, says Olympics should not be politized and: https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202202/1252257.shtml US lawmaker even takes aim at pandas, may create unexpected effect; "Yet at this time, US media outlets reported that Republican congresswoman Nancy Mace plans to toss out (note: obviously means introduce) a shocking bill targeting giant pandas - breaking the deal made between China and the US, stopping panda cubs born in the US to be sent back to China. She said she hoped it would send a message to China during the Beijing Winter Olympic Games that pandas should not be used as window dressing". Er..the panda is a Chinese emblem.... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 15th, 2022 at 2:29pm
cancel (page turning achieved)
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 15th, 2022 at 2:31pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 5:03pm:
I speak for myself. [/quote] You don’t speak for yourself, you post subject to the approval of Security bureau officers. Nothing you post here is of any worth as it would be identical to all others who post at your clearance level. [/quote] 2nd try.... |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 15th, 2022 at 2:33pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 15th, 2022 at 11:37am:
Global Times is at least as free as Fox News...and more informative. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Lisa Jones on Feb 15th, 2022 at 2:37pm Frank wrote on Feb 13th, 2022 at 6:17pm:
It's a multi troll shared id. Frank. You can see just by its inability to comprehend much that it's dumb @rse John Smith. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by athos on Feb 15th, 2022 at 6:48pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 15th, 2022 at 11:37am:
Yes, that's the problem, you don't admit anything. ;D |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 15th, 2022 at 6:55pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 15th, 2022 at 2:33pm:
No it's not. Which is why the CCP is buying off European institutions to peddle propaganda. which is failing under the likes of CGTN, like, say the Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam. In China, nothing is free of the CCP. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 15th, 2022 at 6:58pm athos wrote on Feb 15th, 2022 at 6:48pm:
Yes. Decent of the CCP to let you know that your lives belong to the party. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Feb 15th, 2022 at 8:45pm
Gino is too thick to manage multiple IDs. He can barely manage his 'John Smith' id ( how is that for dago cultural cringe, btw, when an Italian is too ashamed to be Italian because he knows, instinctively, that he is an utter let down and discredit to the magnificent Italian people. ).
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Feb 21st, 2022 at 8:54pm
https://youtu.be/7DqvweTYTI0
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 12:40pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 15th, 2022 at 6:55pm:
Like in Western media , nothing is free of the "China threat" theory. https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202202/1252812.shtml First foreigner labeled as China state-affiliated media' calls unfair Western coverage of China part of systemic slander campaign By Chen Qingqing Published: Feb 21, 2022 11:21 PM "Andy Boreham, a Shanghai-based New Zealander, was recently labeled by Twitter as "China state-affiliated media." This might be the first time a foreigner "gains this coveted title," he told the Global Times in an interview adding that "Twitter is anything but a space for sharing ideas. It is a tool for hegemony and the status quo. And the unfair media coverage of China is just part of the systemic and high-level campaign to continue painting China in the worst possible light." At least there are some Westerners who can think for themselves, despite the deluded "freedom" ideology and its associated "China threat" theory spouted by the mainstream Western press. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 12:42pm
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 12:44pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 15th, 2022 at 6:55pm:
And in the West, nothing is free of the "freedom" delusion. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 12:46pm Frank wrote on Feb 15th, 2022 at 8:45pm:
Given your delusional "freedom" ideology, this is the best we can hope to expect from you, I suppose. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by thegreatdivide on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 12:47pm Frank wrote on Feb 21st, 2022 at 8:54pm:
Oh no, you still looking for Monty to defend your delusional "freedom" ideology? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 12:50pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 12:44pm:
So nothing is free of the CCP, then. |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by MeisterEckhart on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 12:52pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 12:40pm:
I wonder how long Andy Boreham's homosexuality will be tolerated by the CCP. Until he becomes redundant to them? |
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Title: Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Post by Frank on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 12:59pm thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 12:47pm:
No, that was just to mock you, Parrot. Positive and Negative Liberty First published Thu Feb 27, 2003; substantive revision Fri Nov 19, 2021 Negative liberty is the absence of obstacles, barriers or constraints. One has negative liberty to the extent that actions are available to one in this negative sense. Positive liberty is the possibility of acting — or the fact of acting — in such a way as to take control of one’s life and realize one’s fundamental purposes. While negative liberty is usually attributed to individual agents, positive liberty is sometimes attributed to collectivities, or to individuals considered primarily as members of given collectivities. The idea of distinguishing between a negative and a positive sense of the term ‘liberty’ goes back at least to Kant, and was examined and defended in depth by Isaiah Berlin in the 1950s and ’60s. Discussions about positive and negative liberty normally take place within the context of political and social philosophy. They are distinct from, though sometimes related to, philosophical discussions about free will. Work on the nature of positive liberty often overlaps, however, with work on the nature of autonomy. As Berlin showed, negative and positive liberty are not merely two distinct kinds of liberty; they can be seen as rival, incompatible interpretations of a single political ideal. Since few people claim to be against liberty, the way this term is interpreted and defined can have important political implications. Political liberalism tends to presuppose a negative definition of liberty: liberals generally claim that if one favors individual liberty one should place strong limitations on the activities of the state. Critics of liberalism often contest this implication by contesting the negative definition of liberty: they argue that the pursuit of liberty understood as self-realization or as self-determination (whether of the individual or of the collectivity) can require state intervention of a kind not normally allowed by liberals. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberty-positive-negative/ On 10 January 1962 Isaiah Berlin was interveiwed by Bamber Gascoigne for an ATV programme entitled ‘Freedom of Speech’ (the first of a series on ‘The Four Freedoms’), broadcast on 11 February 1962. Berlin was asked what ‘freedom’ really means: what follows is a lightly edited transcript of his reply. As in the case of words which everyone is in favour of, ‘freedom’ has a very great many senses – some of the world’s worst tyrannies have been undertaken in the name of freedom. Nevertheless, I should say that the word probably has two central senses, at any rate in the West. One is the familiar liberal sense in which freedom means that every man has a life to live and should be given the fullest opportunity of doing so, and that there are only two adequate reasons for controlling men. The first is that there are other goods besides freedom, such as, for example, security or peace or culture, or other things which human beings need, which must be given them, apart from the question of whether they want them or not. Secondly, if one man obtains too much, he will deprive other people of their freedom – freedom for the pike means death to the carp – and this is a perfectly adequate reason for curtailing freedom. Still, curtailing freedom isn’t the same as freedom. The second sense of the word is not so much a matter of allowing people to do what they want as the idea that I want to be governed by myself and not pushed around by other people; and this idea leads one to the supposition that to be free means to be self-governing. To be self-governing means that the source of authority must lie in me – or in us, if we’re talking about a community. And if the source of freedom lies in me, then it’s comparatively unimportant how much control there is, provided the control is exercised by myself, or my representatives, or my nation, my people, my tribe, my Church, and so forth. Provided that I am governed by people who are sympathetic to me, or understand my interests, I don’t mind how much of my life is pried into, or whether there is a private province which is divided from the public province; and in some modern States – for example the Soviet Union and other States with totalitarian governments – this second view seems to be taken. Between these two views, I see no possibility of reconciliation. ] |
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