thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 10^th, 2022 at 11:21am:

freediver wrote on Feb 9th, 2022 at 6:20pm: Nothing has changed to our understanding since 1960. The CCP has removed it's head from it's arse. Re the West: true, that's why poverty remains entrenched in the West despite material advancement. Whereas the CCP has changed as you say, which is why common prosperity is rapidly  being attained in China.

You are seriously deluded. Chinese earn on average 1/6 as much as Americans, and there is a huge wealth disparity in China. There are for more poor people in China.

Hey Greatdivide tell the forum once more about how terrible Australia's homelessness issue is compared to China's?

While you're at it ... keep in mind that China has over 300 million homeless people.

Oh and here's a question many of us Aussies are wondering:

If China is so great and wonderful ... why don't you go and live there?

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55571813.amp

Happy reading "Greatdivide".

Oh look at this 😐

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2021/01/25/deep-sixing-poverty-in-china/amp/

How your awesome and progressive CCP defines the poverty line.

Anyone earning over $2.25 per DAY is NOT living in poverty.

Seriously I'm beginning to think you're as deluded and deranged as that other OzPol nutter we have here ...Laugh til we Laugh AT him!

You wouldn't happen to be his mentally unhinged twin brother by any chance?

They don't seem to want to touch this one any more.

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2022 at 6:19pm:

You are seriously deluded. Chinese earn on average 1/6 as much as Americans, and there is a huge wealth disparity in China. There are for more poor people in China.

Talk about delusion.... and simple-mindedness.

1. China is the fastest growing large economy in the world, 

2. Inequality is greater in the US than China.

3. China is eradicating poverty at the fastest rate of any nation in history.

4. Poverty remains entrenched in the most of the democratic West, including the US. 

[Nice try...move the debate without telling anyone, and then assert your opposition has run away....:-(   ]

It's easy to show progress when you start from nothing. But there is still far more poverty in China than western nations. What you describe as entrenched poverty in the west is an aspirational goal for the Chinese.

Do you get paid to post this silly propaganda?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China#Poverty_reduction

As of 2015, over 1/4 of the population earns less than $5.50 per day.

freediver wrote on Feb 19^th, 2022 at 1:36pm:

It's easy to show progress when you start from nothing.

No it's not, look at India,  with 1/5 the GDP of China despite the same starting point ("from nothing") 4 decades ago.


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But there is still far more poverty in China than western nations.

Of course: China started from absolute poverty 4 decades ago, with a vast population that exceeds the total population of the Western democracies.   


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What you describe as entrenched poverty in the west is an aspirational goal for the Chinese.

Nonsense. China's 'common prosperity' goal  doesn't look anything like the entrenched poverty in the West eg the 3rd world condition of aboriginals  in Oz, and black poverty ghettos in the US, not to mention white- welfare poverty in the West. 


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Do you get paid to post this silly propaganda?

No, whereas you come here and post your blind "freedom" ideology crap for free..


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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China#Poverty_reduction As of 2015, over 1/4 of the population earns less than $5.50 per day.

7 years ago...is a long time in China; AND China subsidizes living expenses for its low wage workers.eg


"The government now provides affordable housing by subsidizing commercial housing purchases or by offering low-rent public (social) housing to middle- and low-income families".

Given there is nothing the CCP won't cover up and deploy the full use of the state's security apparatus to silence anyone who attempts to publish information not to the CCP's liking, all approved information from mainland China must be treated as likely untrue.

Anecdotally (from those who have witnessed it first hand) China is a dump and likely exponentially worse that than the Soviet Union prior to its collapse.

ground water and land has been poisoned, air pollution is so bad, in most areas of China everything is covered with a grey film. The environmental damage is horrific.

Once the CCP collapses, the full extent of the true mess China is in will become known; as is what happened in ex-Soviet Union states.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 19^th, 2022 at 1:55pm:

Given there is nothing the CCP won't cover up and deploy the full use of the state's security apparatus to silence anyone who attempts to publish information not to the CCP's liking, all approved information from mainland China must be treated as likely untrue. Anecdotally (from those who have witnessed it first hand) China is a dump and likely exponentially worse that than the Soviet Union prior to its collapse. ground water and land has been poisoned, air pollution is so bad, in most areas of China everything is covered with a grey film. The environmental damage is horrific. Once the CCP collapses, the full extent of the true mess China is in will become known; as is what happened in ex-Soviet Union states.

More mindless Western "freedom" ideology crap (since you can't debate "consent versus consensus"..)

Exposed here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHAxE_dJD2A

and here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyhRTaCJIEM

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 19^th, 2022 at 2:09pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 19th, 2022 at 1:55pm: Given there is nothing the CCP won't cover up and deploy the full use of the state's security apparatus to silence anyone who attempts to publish information not to the CCP's liking, all approved information from mainland China must be treated as likely untrue. Anecdotally (from those who have witnessed it first hand) China is a dump and likely exponentially worse that than the Soviet Union prior to its collapse. ground water and land has been poisoned, air pollution is so bad, in most areas of China everything is covered with a grey film. The environmental damage is horrific. Once the CCP collapses, the full extent of the true mess China is in will become known; as is what happened in ex-Soviet Union states. More mindless Western "freedom" ideology crap (since you can't debate "consent versus consensus"..) Exposed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHAxE_dJD2A and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyhRTaCJIEM

Yes. We're all well aware of that 'white monkey'.

Note in his description 'Thanks to CGTN and Liu Xin for inviting me on their Show again!'

CGTN is a state-funded organisation which is not permitted to practise free journalism.

This particular guy, (as with all the others), are given scripts and guided to areas to film. It is illegal in China to film wherever you like and publish what you film without express permission from local or national CCP officials.

Rural China is poverty-stricken and a dump. To make it worse there are many rural Chinese who are not registered as citizens and therefore have no access to any services in China.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 19^th, 2022 at 2:16pm:

Yes. We're all well aware of that 'white monkey'. Note in his description 'Thanks to CGTN and Liu Xin for inviting me on their Show again!'

Of course, after the BBC has banned CGTN!

So much for 'freedom of speech' among Western "freedom" ideologues, who are incapable of understanding the basis of their 'sovereign individual' delusion  or its variant, the " inalienable rights"  delusion.


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CGTN is a state-funded organisation which is not permitted to practise free journalism.

So asserts the blind, deluded "freedom" ideologue.


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This particular guy, (as with all the others), are given scripts and guided to areas to film. It is illegal in China to film wherever you like and publish what you film without express permission from local or national CCP officials.

He's a Brit expat who has a Chinese wife and child, he's merely exposing the lies of Western propaganda.


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Rural China is poverty-stricken and a dump. To make it worse there are many rural Chinese who are not registered as citizens and therefore have no access to any services in China.

And what terrifies you more than anything is  the CCP will continue to succeed in  lifting the living standards of  1.4 billion people at the fastest rate of any nation in history.

Exit US global hegemony, you deluded "freedom" ideologue losers. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 19^th, 2022 at 2:33pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 19th, 2022 at 2:16pm: Yes. We're all well aware of that 'white monkey'. Note in his description 'Thanks to CGTN and Liu Xin for inviting me on their Show again!' Of course, after the BBC has banned CGTN! So much for 'freedom of speech' among Western "freedom" ideologues, who are incapable of understanding the basis of their 'sovereign individual' delusion  or its variant, the " inalienable rights"  delusion. Quote: CGTN is a state-funded organisation which is not permitted to practise free journalism. So asserts the blind, deluded "freedom" ideologue. [quote]This particular guy, (as with all the others), are given scripts and guided to areas to film. It is illegal in China to film wherever you like and publish what you film without express permission from local or national CCP officials.

He's a Brit expat who has a Chinese wife and child, he's merely exposing the lies of Western propaganda.


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Rural China is poverty-stricken and a dump. To make it worse there are many rural Chinese who are not registered as citizens and therefore have no access to any services in China.

And what terrifies you more than anything is  the CCP will continue to succeed in  lifting the living standards of  1.4 billion people at the fastest rate of any nation in history.

Exit US global hegemony, you deluded "freedom" ideologue losers. 
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No. He is paid (as are the Barretts and others) to follow a script approved by CCP officials. These so-called 'white monkeys' are flown/driven to certain areas to film only exactly what they're told. The film footage is not the white monkey's property. The CCP owns the video and edits it as it sees fit.

Winston Sterzel and Matt Tye have exposed this many times on their youtube channels.

Both are married to ex-Chinese nationals and both have children.

Both spent over ten years each in China.

Both speak fluent Mandarin (which helped them in the wariness of the CCP when people spoke freely around them presuming they could not, as foreigners, speak or understand Mandarin).

Ultimately Sterzel and Tye filmed wherever they liked and (luckily for them) got their videos (and themselves) out of China before the CCP caught them.

The CCP and CGTN have stalked them in the US ever since.

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Of course: China started from absolute poverty 4 decades ago, with a vast population that exceeds the total population of the Western democracies.

Are you suggesting it is twice as hard for two people to escape poverty than for one person? Why do you keep using total population as an excuse?


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7 years ago...is a long time in China;

And the wealth of the Chinese is a very very long way from that of westerners. Feel free to provide an update if you think it has changed significantly since then. So far all you do is parrot idiotic propaganda with nothing at all to back it up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China#Poverty_reduction

As of 2015, over 1/4 of China's population earns less than $5.50 per day.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 19^th, 2022 at 2:43pm:

No. He is paid (as are the Barretts and others) to follow a script approved by CCP officials. These so-called 'white monkeys' are flown/driven to certain areas to film only exactly what they're told. The film footage is not the white monkey's property. The CCP owns the video and edits it as it sees fit. Winston Sterzel and Matt Tye have exposed this many times on their youtube channels. Both are married to ex-Chinese nationals and both have children. Both spent over ten years each in China. Both speak fluent Mandarin (which helped them in the wariness of the CCP when people spoke freely around them presuming they could not, as foreigners, speak or understand Mandarin). Ultimately Sterzel and Tye filmed wherever they liked and (luckily for them) got their videos (and themselves) out of China before the CCP caught them. The CCP and CGTN have stalked them in the US ever since.

Fortunately, Michelle Bachelet will be visiting Xinjiang later this year, which will expose your "genocide" lie.

As for Sterzel: 'sovereign individual'/inalienable rights' ideologues  are easily upset and readily turn against authority when they think they know best, witness the Ottawa mob. 

China's development is continuing apace, so the glittering new cities and infrastructure will soon spread to the more remote rural areas. 

Meanwhile you continue to make out you are concerned with poverty in China, whereas what terrifies you more than anything is  the CCP will continue to succeed in  lifting the living standards of  1.4 billion people at the fastest rate of any nation in history.

Exit US global hegemony, which you deluded "freedom" ideologue losers will certainly have a hard time dealing with. 

freediver wrote on Feb 19^th, 2022 at 3:24pm:

Are you suggesting it is twice as hard for two people to escape poverty than for one person? Why do you keep using total population as an excuse?

Because small populations are easier to organize,  and require fewer resources to make them rich (duh).


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And the wealth of the Chinese is a very very long way from that of westerners.

in 10 years China will be the most powerful nation on the planet, and in 20 years per capita standards will match those in the West. 


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Feel free to provide an update if you think it has changed significantly since then. So far all you do is parrot idiotic propaganda with nothing at all to back it up.

By "idiotic propaganda", I presume you mean my expose' of the West's 'sovereign individual' / "inalienable rights" delusions...

The thing about delusions is they are not easily dispelled....


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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China#Poverty_reduction As of 2015, over 1/4 of China's population earns less than $5.50 per day.

As I said, China subsidizes low-wage workers' housing, and infrastructure costs. Meantime the size of the middle class in increasing rapidly, unlike in the US.   

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 19^th, 2022 at 4:47pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 19th, 2022 at 2:43pm: No. He is paid (as are the Barretts and others) to follow a script approved by CCP officials. These so-called 'white monkeys' are flown/driven to certain areas to film only exactly what they're told. The film footage is not the white monkey's property. The CCP owns the video and edits it as it sees fit. Winston Sterzel and Matt Tye have exposed this many times on their youtube channels. Both are married to ex-Chinese nationals and both have children. Both spent over ten years each in China. Both speak fluent Mandarin (which helped them in the wariness of the CCP when people spoke freely around them presuming they could not, as foreigners, speak or understand Mandarin). Ultimately Sterzel and Tye filmed wherever they liked and (luckily for them) got their videos (and themselves) out of China before the CCP caught them. The CCP and CGTN have stalked them in the US ever since. Fortunately, Michelle Bachelet will be visiting Xinjiang later this year, which will expose your "genocide" lie. As for Sterzel: 'sovereign individual'/inalienable rights' ideologues  are easily upset and readily turn against authority when they think they know best, witness the Ottawa mob.  China's development is continuing apace, so the glittering new cities and infrastructure will soon spread to the more remote rural areas.  Meanwhile you continue to make out you are concerned with poverty in China, whereas what terrifies you more than anything is  the CCP will continue to succeed in  lifting the living standards of  1.4 billion people at the fastest rate of any nation in history. Exit US global hegemony, which you deluded "freedom" ideologue losers will certainly have a hard time dealing with.

The CCP has agreed to allow Michelle Bachelet to visit Xinjiang after the winter olympics 'on the condition the trip should be “friendly” and not framed as an investigation.' We will soon see what that means.

My guess would be that Bachelet will only be allowed to visit certain parts of Xinjiang where no camps have already been geolocated.

Sterzel and Tye originally went to great lengths to portray China in a favourable light until the CCP began harassing them and searching them at their homes or registered locations, usually in the late evening or early hours of the morning and subjected them to intense questioning on a regular basis.

The issue with the CCP is that it is a totalitarian party that applies absolute control of all information about China, such that only its own propaganda is published. The penalty, as we know, for breaching this totalitarian control is disappearance and/or lengthy jail sentences.

China is a dump (outside a few 'showcase cities' or parts of cities) and poverty-stricken in rural areas and some urban areas. That is a fact.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 19^th, 2022 at 5:02pm:

The CCP has agreed to allow Michelle Bachelet to visit Xinjiang after the winter olympics 'on the condition the trip should be “friendly” and not framed as an investigation.' We will soon see what that means.

Yes we will. 


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My guess would be that Bachelet will only be allowed to visit certain parts of Xinjiang where no camps have already been geolocated.

Hopefully Bachelet is capable of understanding the need to re-educate Islamic terrorists, and provide employment for them.   


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Sterzel and Tye originally went to great lengths to portray China in a favourable light until the CCP began harassing them and searching them at their homes or registered locations, usually in the late evening or early hours of the morning and subjected them to intense questioning on a regular basis.

What was it with Sterzel's wife,  that the CCP should have come to regard her as a spy?  Jason certainly isn't having any such problems with his Chinese wife.


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The issue with the CCP is that it is a totalitarian party that applies absolute control of all information about China, such that only its own propaganda is published.

The issue with the West is it's a Libertarian outfit based on sovereign individual' inalienable rights ' delusions.   


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The penalty, as we know, for breaching this totalitarian control is disappearance and/or lengthy jail sentences.

Yeh... like Assange's multi-year incarceration...


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China is a dump (outside a few 'showcase cities' or parts of cities) and poverty-stricken in rural areas and some urban areas. That is a fact.

Have patience. You ain't see nuttin' yet...soon another 40,000 kms of HS rail, the world's most advanced and extensive 5G communications etc all laid out in the 5 year plans  (while poor Biden is having trouble getting some funds from Congress to do anything... 

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 19^th, 2022 at 5:17pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 19th, 2022 at 5:02pm: The CCP has agreed to allow Michelle Bachelet to visit Xinjiang after the winter olympics 'on the condition the trip should be “friendly” and not framed as an investigation.' We will soon see what that means. Yes we will.  Quote: My guess would be that Bachelet will only be allowed to visit certain parts of Xinjiang where no camps have already been geolocated. Hopefully Bachelet is capable of understanding the need to re-educate Islamic terrorists, and provide employment for them.    [quote]Sterzel and Tye originally went to great lengths to portray China in a favourable light until the CCP began harassing them and searching them at their homes or registered locations, usually in the late evening or early hours of the morning and subjected them to intense questioning on a regular basis.

What was it with Sterzel's wife,  that the CCP should have come to regard her as a spy?  Jason certainly isn't having any such problems with his Chinese wife.


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The issue with the CCP is that it is a totalitarian party that applies absolute control of all information about China, such that only its own propaganda is published.

The issue with the West is it's a Libertarian outfit based on sovereign individual' inalienable rights ' delusions.   


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The penalty, as we know, for breaching this totalitarian control is disappearance and/or lengthy jail sentences.

Yeh... like Assange's multi-year incarceration...


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China is a dump (outside a few 'showcase cities' or parts of cities) and poverty-stricken in rural areas and some urban areas. That is a fact.

Have patience. You ain't see nuttin' yet...soon another 40,000 kms of HS rail, the world's most advanced and extensive 5G communications etc all laid out in the 5 year plans  (while poor Biden is having trouble getting some funds from Congress to do anything... 
[/quote]
The Nazi government went down the same propaganda route with its creation of Theresienstadt to showcase Jews in camps as being happy, well-treated and working productively.

It took the collapse of that government for the true horrors of the camps to be exposed.

The CCP regards everyone potentially as a spy, particularly non-Han Chinese and, most particularly, all foreigners. That is something that foreigners with experience living in China used to warn new arrivals about: the illusion of freedom which was a facade that has since been progressively ripped down as the Xi dictatorship has progressed.

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 19^th, 2022 at 4:59pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 19th, 2022 at 3:24pm: Are you suggesting it is twice as hard for two people to escape poverty than for one person? Why do you keep using total population as an excuse? Because small populations are easier to organize,  and require fewer resources to make them rich (duh).

People are not "made rich". They make themselves rich. All the government has to do is get out of the way and let them. The size of the population makes little difference. If anything, it is easier with large populations due to economies of scale. The larger countries can compete in industries such as automotive that smaller nations such as Australia could not.


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Meanwhile you continue to make out you are concerned with poverty in China, whereas what terrifies you more than anything is  the CCP will continue to succeed in  lifting the living standards of  1.4 billion people at the fastest rate of any nation in history.

We are concerned they will go the way of Nazi Germany, and drag everyone else down with them. The writing is on the wall.


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in 10 years China will be the most powerful nation on the planet, and in 20 years per capita standards will match those in the West

You mean in 20 years, assuming no more "mistakes", you will reach the living standards the west has now, largely by copying it. Remember, it was not that long ago that for no good reason at all, other than stupid ideology and believing its own propaganda, your government starved 50 million of its citizens to death, and you are now defending it keeping the population ignorant of this so that it can repeat the mistake.

One mistake, and you will find the Chinese people not so forgiving of your lies.


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By "idiotic propaganda", I presume you mean my expose' of the West's 'sovereign individual' / "inalienable rights" delusions...

I meant your idiotic propaganda about China becoming rich. You provide no evidence at all. The facts point to China still being wracked by poverty. All you provide is spin, not substance. Then pretend not to understand what I am saying.

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 19^th, 2022 at 5:17pm:

The issue with the West is it's a Libertarian outfit based on sovereign individual' inalienable rights ' delusions.

Yes the same individual thinking people that built the world as we know it and allowed China to join. That brought bronze, the wheel, iron and horses to China, the blue eyed "monkeys" on their western borders. Those that went from steppe warriors to space explorers in 5k years but thanks for the gunpowder.  ;)

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 19^th, 2022 at 5:32pm:

The Nazi government went down the same propaganda route with its creation of Theresienstadt to showcase Jews in camps as being happy, well-treated and working productively.

Nonsense. The Jews weren't separatist  terrorists, which is, inter alia,  what the Nazis were trying to portray them as. 


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It took the collapse of that government for the true horrors of the camps to be exposed.

Totally irrelevant, as noted above.


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The CCP regards everyone potentially as a spy, particularly non-Han Chinese and, most particularly, all foreigners. That is something that foreigners with experience living in China used to warn new arrivals about: the illusion of freedom which was a facade that has since been progressively ripped down as the Xi dictatorship has progressed.

In short, ideological BS from a deluded sovereign individual/inalienable rights ideologue.

Such ideologues are by definition a threat to the Chinese consensus system.

No-one is saying the CCP is identical to the Nazis. Just that they are following the same playbook. The CCP killed far more people than the Nazis, just by trying to help them. Their utter stupidity and incompetence is more dangerous than the Nazis' malevolence.

Can you give an example of the Nazis portraying Jews as separatist terrorists?

freediver wrote on Feb 19^th, 2022 at 6:30pm:

People are not "made rich". They make themselves rich.

Semantics? The Singaporeans submitted to government directed by, in effect, one man...and achieved a spectacular rise in living standards.  But they were only a population of around 4 million.

Now the task of lifting the living standards of 1.4 billion people is far more complex, because a service industry alone will not achieve it.


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All the government has to do is get out of the way and let them.

Singapore proves: not so.


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The size of the population makes little difference. If anything, it is easier with large populations due to economies of scale. The larger countries can compete in industries such as automotive that smaller nations such as Australia could not.

 

But you have to build the factories first. Both China and India languished while Japan out competed the US in manufacturing.  China had to start at the low-end, low wage manufacturing first. And where will India start? 


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We are concerned they will go the way of Nazi Germany, and drag everyone else down with them. The writing is on the wall.

Ah...that makes sense. 

No, don't worry, the Chinese have no interest in conquering anyone else, only in defending their own existence as a state.   


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You mean in 20 years, assuming no more "mistakes", you will reach the living standards the west has now, largely by copying it.

No, not by copying it. Evergrande and funny-money tech etc etc have already alerted the CCP to the downsides  of the West's free market system. 


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Remember, it was not that long ago that for no good reason at all, other than stupid ideology and believing its own propaganda, your government starved 50 million of its citizens to death, and you are now defending it keeping the population ignorant of this so that it can repeat the mistake.

Obviously nonsense. The last thing the CCP wants is to repeat that mistake.


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One mistake, and you will find the Chinese people not so forgiving of your lies.

The CCP is well aware of that.


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I meant your idiotic propaganda about China becoming rich. You provide no evidence at all.

?? the "China miracle" is the most widely accepted reality of modern economics, including among Western economists. 


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The facts point to China still being wracked by poverty. All you provide is spin, not substance. Then pretend not to understand what I am saying.

I understand what you are saying, which is China still has poverty...just as the US and Oz do. But it's the rate of eradication of poverty which  is the important factor, high in China  and low - if at all - in the US and Oz. 

Setanta wrote on Feb 19^th, 2022 at 8:40pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 19th, 2022 at 5:17pm: The issue with the West is it's a Libertarian outfit based on sovereign individual' inalienable rights ' delusions.    Yes the same individual thinking people that built the world as we know it and allowed China to join. That brought bronze, the wheel, iron and horses to China, the blue eyed "monkeys" on their western borders. Those that went from steppe warriors to space explorers in 5k years but thanks for the gunpowder.  ;)

And silk, paper and printing.

Yes, the chaos of individual sovereignty has brought us to now, BUT....the 'age of Aquarius' - is upon us.

In the age of MAD, climate change, global pandemics and economic practices breaching  the planet's ecological limits, the days of the sovereign individual are numbered...

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 20^th, 2022 at 1:38pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 19th, 2022 at 5:32pm: The Nazi government went down the same propaganda route with its creation of Theresienstadt to showcase Jews in camps as being happy, well-treated and working productively. Nonsense. The Jews weren't separatist  terrorists, which is, inter alia,  what the Nazis were trying to portray them as.  Quote: It took the collapse of that government for the true horrors of the camps to be exposed. Totally irrelevant, as noted above. [quote]The CCP regards everyone potentially as a spy, particularly non-Han Chinese and, most particularly, all foreigners. That is something that foreigners with experience living in China used to warn new arrivals about: the illusion of freedom which was a facade that has since been progressively ripped down as the Xi dictatorship has progressed.

In short, ideological BS from a deluded sovereign individual/inalienable rights ideologue.

Such ideologues are by definition a threat to the Chinese consensus system.
[/quote]
It wasn't just the Nazis who were portraying them as separatist terrorists. Kaiser Wilhelm II blamed his abdication and Germany's defeat on Jewish socialist intellectuals. It was a common belief among Germans that Jews were colluding with Russian Bolsheviks. As with the CCP and China, Germans once externalised blame for all of Germany's problems.

Once the CCP has collapsed, the true extent of the mess mainland China is in will be exposed.

Under the CCP, the world does not view China or the Chinese people as success stories. Particularly recently, China is being exposed as the backward dump that it is and the people as backward as the soviets of the 50s.

This Chinese obsession with industrial wastelands, smoke stacks and cooling towers as 'proof of progress', is particularly reminiscent of the soviets.

Everyone is a potential spy to the CCP, hence the obsession with surveillance, particularly of all foreigners, ethnic minorities, rural Chinese, migrant workers. It is a reincarnation of the KGB and the East German Stasi.

When all Stasi files were made public, former east Germans were stunned to find out that many of their friends and neighbours were actually Stasi operatives reporting their every move. That's the kind of shock that awaits the Chinese people.

Already Chinese people do not trust each other, hence why they prefer to purchase the likes of baby powder from foreign sources.

freediver wrote on Feb 20^th, 2022 at 1:48pm:

No-one is saying the CCP is identical to the Nazis. Just that they are following the same playbook.

 

Nazis blamed peaceful Jews for  Germany's problems, and Hitler decided to go to war.  The CCP's playbook is national unity and national development.


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The CCP killed far more people than the Nazis, just by trying to help them. Their utter stupidity and incompetence is more dangerous than the Nazis' malevolence.

You are getting your verb tenses mixed up; the CCP has changed its policies since the 60's, creating the "China miracle".


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Can you give an example of the Nazis portraying Jews as separatist terrorists?

"The Nazis incorrectly believed Jews had a natural      impulse, inherited through generations, to strive for      world domination, and that      this goal would not only      prevent German      dominance but would also enslave      and destroy the      German “race".

Hilarious to hear the the CCP's Jiang faction is once again fighting to take down the Xi faction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfPNZdwHNC0

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 20^th, 2022 at 2:06pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 19th, 2022 at 6:30pm: People are not "made rich". They make themselves rich. Semantics? The Singaporeans submitted to government directed by, in effect, one man...and achieved a spectacular rise in living standards.  But they were only a population of around 4 million. Now the task of lifting the living standards of 1.4 billion people is far more complex, because a service industry alone will not achieve it. Quote: All the government has to do is get out of the way and let them. Singapore proves: not so. [quote]The size of the population makes little difference. If anything, it is easier with large populations due to economies of scale. The larger countries can compete in industries such as automotive that smaller nations such as Australia could not.

 

But you have to build the factories first. Both China and India languished while Japan out competed the US in manufacturing.  China had to start at the low-end, low wage manufacturing first. And where will India start? 


Quote:

We are concerned they will go the way of Nazi Germany, and drag everyone else down with them. The writing is on the wall.

Ah...that makes sense. 

No, don't worry, the Chinese have no interest in conquering anyone else, only in defending their own existence as a state.   


Quote:

You mean in 20 years, assuming no more "mistakes", you will reach the living standards the west has now, largely by copying it.

No, not by copying it. Evergrande and funny-money tech etc etc have already alerted the CCP to the downsides  of the West's free market system. 


Quote:

Remember, it was not that long ago that for no good reason at all, other than stupid ideology and believing its own propaganda, your government starved 50 million of its citizens to death, and you are now defending it keeping the population ignorant of this so that it can repeat the mistake.

Obviously nonsense. The last thing the CCP wants is to repeat that mistake.


Quote:

One mistake, and you will find the Chinese people not so forgiving of your lies.

The CCP is well aware of that.


Quote:

I meant your idiotic propaganda about China becoming rich. You provide no evidence at all.

?? the "China miracle" is the most widely accepted reality of modern economics, including among Western economists. 


Quote:

The facts point to China still being wracked by poverty. All you provide is spin, not substance. Then pretend not to understand what I am saying.

I understand what you are saying, which is China still has poverty...just as the US and Oz do. But it's the rate of eradication of poverty which  is the important factor, high in China  and low - if at all - in the US and Oz. 
[/quote]

I notice you are still reluctant to present any actual evidence regarding how wealthy the CCP has made the Chinese people, or how big the wealth gap is. You only offer us meaningless spin.

Why is that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China#Poverty_reduction

As of 2015, over 1/4 of China's population earns less than $5.50 per day.

80% of the Chinese population live in small 'caged apartments' like battery hens. At least they're allowed to 'Free-range' and go to work carving toothpicks.

freediver wrote on Feb 20^th, 2022 at 2:53pm:

I notice you are still reluctant to present any actual evidence regarding how wealthy the CCP has made the Chinese people, or how big the wealth gap is. You only offer us meaningless spin. Why is that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China#Poverty_reduction As of 2015, over 1/4 of China's population earns less than $5.50 per day.

1. In 2008, (the start of the GFC) Chinese GDP was c.$4.5 trillion, now it's $18 trillion. (US c $14 to $20 trillion in the same period).

2.Wealth inequality remains higher in the US  than in China.

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 20^th, 2022 at 4:51pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 20th, 2022 at 2:53pm: I notice you are still reluctant to present any actual evidence regarding how wealthy the CCP has made the Chinese people, or how big the wealth gap is. You only offer us meaningless spin. Why is that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China#Poverty_reduction As of 2015, over 1/4 of China's population earns less than $5.50 per day. 1. In 2008, (the start of the GFC) Chinese GDP was c.$4.5 trillion, now it's $18 trillion. (US c $14 to $20 trillion in the same period). 2.Wealth inequality remains higher in the US  than in China.

You ARE in China, we hope. You richly deserved each other.

Quote:

1. In 2008, (the start of the GFC) Chinese GDP was c.$4.5 trillion, now it's $18 trillion. (US c $14 to $20 trillion in the same period).

Well at least this is evidence. Just not in your favour.

On a per capita basis, that is a fraction of Americas. One minute you are complaining that the CCP had to kill 50 million of its own citizens because it is somehow more difficult to life a large country out of poverty than a small one. Now you are equating their enourmous population with relative wealth.

Did the CCP train you in hypocrisy?


Quote:

2.Wealth inequality remains higher in the US  than in China.

So you keep saying. But you never produce evidence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China#Poverty_reduction

As of 2015, over 1/4 of China's population earns less than $5.50 per day.


Quote:

80% of the Chinese population live in small 'caged apartments' like battery hens. At least they're allowed to 'Free-range' and go to work carving toothpicks.

I have stayed in one of the better ones. It's a strange experience. I recall crossing the road in a storm to pick up dinner. On the way back we were carrying various soups and noodles dumped straight into shopping bags, wading through ankle deep water to cross the street, that smelt like raw sewage. Luckily I was wearing my blundstones.

freediver wrote on Feb 20^th, 2022 at 5:24pm:

As of 2015, over 1/4 of China's population earns less than $5.50 per day.

To add to that, even the CCP has admitted that 1 in 7 is unemployed (or, as they call it, 'flexibly employed'), although it may be as bad as 1 in 5.

Living in China vs Living in America (part1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iPDxjocKOw&t=519s
:D

freediver wrote on Feb 20^th, 2022 at 5:24pm:

Quote: 1. In 2008, (the start of the GFC) Chinese GDP was c.$4.5 trillion, now it's $18 trillion. (US c $14 to $20 trillion in the same period). Well at least this is evidence. Just not in your favour. On a per capita basis, that is a fraction of Americas. One minute you are complaining that the CCP had to kill 50 million of its own citizens because it is somehow more difficult to life a large country out of poverty than a small one. Now you are equating their enourmous population with relative wealth. Did the CCP train you in hypocrisy? [quote]2.Wealth inequality remains higher in the US  than in China.

So you keep saying. But you never produce evidence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China#Poverty_reduction

As of 2015, over 1/4 of China's population earns less than $5.50 per day.


Quote:

80% of the Chinese population live in small 'caged apartments' like battery hens. At least they're allowed to 'Free-range' and go to work carving toothpicks.

I have stayed in one of the better ones. It's a strange experience. I recall crossing the road in a storm to pick up dinner. On the way back we were carrying various soups and noodles dumped straight into shopping bags, wading through ankle deep water to cross the street, that smelt like raw sewage. Luckily I was wearing my blundstones.[/quote]

Living in China vs Living in America (Part 2)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsZtuAOMegQ&t=30s

Athos, can you tell the difference between evidence and propaganda?

How do you think Chinese compare to Americans on wealth or wealth inequality?

freediver wrote on Feb 20^th, 2022 at 8:49pm:

Athos, can you tell the difference between evidence and propaganda? How do you think Chinese compare to Americans on wealth or wealth inequality?

Good evening FD

Do you know HOW China DEFINES poverty?

(From wiki)

"The Chinese definition of poverty is more stringent than that of the World Bank, and is defined as earning less than $2.30 a day."

Same word but different meaning. The devil is in the detail.

freediver wrote on Feb 20^th, 2022 at 5:24pm:

Quote: 1. In 2008, (the start of the GFC) Chinese GDP was c.$4.5 trillion, now it's $18 trillion. (US c $14 to $20 trillion in the same period). Well at least this is evidence. Just not in your favour.

How so?


Quote:

On a per capita basis, that is a fraction of Americas.

Correct. But per capita GDP has risen faster in China than the US during 2008 to now, which we can expect will continue.   


Quote:

One minute you are complaining that the CCP had to kill 50 million of its own citizens because it is somehow more difficult to life a large country out of poverty than a small one.

As shown by the fact that India is still in 'low developing'  status, while China is on the verge of 'developed country' status depending on definition:

"Some economists consider $12,000 to $15,000 per capita GDP to be sufficient for developed status while others do not consider a country developed unless its per capita GDP is above $25,000 or $30,000".

Note on a PPP basis, China already has the largest economy in the world, with per capita GDP c.$18000 (PPP)


Quote:

Now you are equating their enourmous population with relative wealth.

No, as explained above. But obviously the 2nd biggest economy in the world CAN afford to land a land rover on Mars, whereas a "wealthy" country like Oz  cannot afford to do so.


Quote:

Did the CCP train you in hypocrisy?

No: unlike you I was taught to think clearly; a near $20 trillion economy is wealthy in terms of global spending power, whether its population is 300 million or 1.3 billion.


Quote:

So you keep saying. But you never produce evidence.

"World Bank estimates of the Gini coefficient – an economic measure showing the level of income inequality in a country – put China among the most unequal major global economies, behind most of Europe, but ahead of the US.  23 Aug 2021"


Quote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China#Poverty_reduction As of 2015, over 1/4 of China's population earns less than $5.50 per day.

In 2015, China's economy was 2/3  its current size.


Quote:

80% of the Chinese population live in small 'caged apartments' like battery hens. At least they're allowed to 'Free-range' and go to work carving toothpicks.

Presumably that implies 300 million people (twice the population of Japan) living in good housing, which makes sense, given the middle class is c.400 million. 


Quote:

I have stayed in one of the better ones. It's a strange experience. I recall crossing the road in a storm to pick up dinner. On the way back we were carrying various soups and noodles dumped straight into shopping bags, wading through ankle deep water to cross the street, that smelt like raw sewage. Luckily I was wearing my blundstones.

Year? City? In a storm......

athos wrote on Feb 20^th, 2022 at 6:31pm:

Living in China vs Living in America (Part 2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsZtuAOMegQ&t=30s

Jason...on seeing the full size child's train in a new shopping centre in China: "..look here, a train...kinda reminds me of a high speed train in America"...

Priceless.  :-)

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 21^st, 2022 at 12:06pm:

athos wrote on Feb 20th, 2022 at 6:31pm: Living in China vs Living in America (Part 2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsZtuAOMegQ&t=30s Jason...on seeing the full size child's train in a new shopping centre in China: "..look here, a train...kinda reminds me of a high speed train in America"... Priceless.  :-)

High speed trains that go to nowhere or ghost cities.

Still, it artificially inflates China's GDP; so, good for propaganda.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 21^st, 2022 at 12:21pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 21st, 2022 at 12:06pm: athos wrote on Feb 20th, 2022 at 6:31pm: Living in China vs Living in America (Part 2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsZtuAOMegQ&t=30s Jason...on seeing the full size child's train in a new shopping centre in China: "..look here, a train...kinda reminds me of a high speed train in America"... Priceless.  :-) High speed trains that go to nowhere or ghost cities.

Nonsense. China's network attracts millions of passengers, and is profitable.


Quote:

Still, it artificially inflates China's GDP; so, good for propaganda.

Spoken like a true propagandist...

Actually, your junk "consumer" society could learn that investment in infrastructure is more productive than investment in profit-driven  junk consumerism. 

China's eerie ghost cities a 'symptom' of the country's economic troubles and housing bubble
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-27/china-ghost-cities-show-growth-driven-by-debt/9912186

Key points:
There may be as many as 64 million empty apartments in China
Many people buy the properties as an investment with no intention of ever moving in
Author says ghost cities show growth is driven by debt in China

Designed for populations numbering in the hundreds of thousands, the mass construction projects can include towering high-rise condominiums, huge shopping centres, city squares, street lights and replicas of cities in Europe and elsewhere.





Kitch cities by kitch people.

Frank wrote on Feb 21^st, 2022 at 3:08pm:

China's eerie ghost cities a 'symptom' of the country's economic troubles and housing bubble https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-27/china-ghost-cities-show-growth-driven-by-debt/9912186 Key points: There may be as many as 64 million empty apartments in China Many people buy the properties as an investment with no intention of ever moving in Author says ghost cities show growth is driven by debt in China Designed for populations numbering in the hundreds of thousands, the mass construction projects can include towering high-rise condominiums, huge shopping centres, city squares, street lights and replicas of cities in Europe and elsewhere. Kitch cities by kitch people.

Growth driven by debt? Actually, given increasing employment working from home, those empty units (and cities)  will soon be able to be put to good use.

Meanwhile prof. Bill Mitchell alerts us to the nonsense that passes for economic analysis re government debt, in the mainstream press in Oz:

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=49264

There are some Op Eds that are bad, and then others that transcend that standard to become terrible. Such was the case last week when I read this article in the Australian press (Sydney Morning Herald) (February 18, 2022) – "It’s time to return to Costello economics, whoever wins the federal election" – which was written by a former advisor to the last Labor Prime Minister in Australia. The article is dishonest in that it completely ignores the most significant aspects of the period he seeks to eulogise. It is also scary if it reflects current Labor Party thinking, given the author’s previous associations.

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 21^st, 2022 at 1:58pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 21st, 2022 at 12:21pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 21st, 2022 at 12:06pm: athos wrote on Feb 20th, 2022 at 6:31pm: Living in China vs Living in America (Part 2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsZtuAOMegQ&t=30s Jason...on seeing the full size child's train in a new shopping centre in China: "..look here, a train...kinda reminds me of a high speed train in America"... Priceless.  :-) High speed trains that go to nowhere or ghost cities. Nonsense. China's network attracts millions of passengers, and is profitable. Quote: Still, it artificially inflates China's GDP; so, good for propaganda. Spoken like a true propagandist... Actually, your junk "consumer" society could learn that investment in infrastructure is more productive than investment in profit-driven  junk consumerism.

Westerners saw all this 'progress' during the soviet and eastern European era of totalitarian regimes.

Stalin was particularly good at playing the tour guide whenever his useful idiots were in town.

When communism collapsed in eastern Europe and Russia, then we got to see what a giant gulag and wasteland communism had really done to the ex-communist lands.

We're seeing footage of what it's really like now in China, but I'd bet it's 10 times worse in reality.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 21^st, 2022 at 4:18pm:

Westerners saw all this 'progress' during the soviet and eastern European era of totalitarian regimes.

Interestingly,  while the junk-consumer Western economies were peddling their profit-driven junk, the USSR launched the first satellite, and first manned space flight. 


Quote:

Stalin was particularly good at playing the tour guide whenever his useful idiots were in town.

Pass.


Quote:

When communism collapsed in eastern Europe and Russia, then we got to see what a giant gulag and wasteland communism had really done to the ex-communist lands.

No, that came later under capitalism:

"In the 10 years after the collapse of the Soviet Union, there were somewhere between 3 million and 7 million excess deaths."13 Jan 2018


Quote:

We're seeing footage of what it's really like now in China, but I'd bet it's 10 times worse in reality.

You'd bet? Of course you have to push your delusional "inalienable rights" delusion , so don't let the facts get in the way - like a middle class of 400 million, set  to reach 800 million by 2030. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 21^st, 2022 at 4:45pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 21st, 2022 at 4:18pm: Westerners saw all this 'progress' during the soviet and eastern European era of totalitarian regimes. Interestingly,  while the junk-consumer Western economies were peddling their profit-driven junk, the USSR launched the first satellite, and first manned space flight.  Quote: Stalin was particularly good at playing the tour guide whenever his useful idiots were in town. Pass. [quote]When communism collapsed in eastern Europe and Russia, then we got to see what a giant gulag and wasteland communism had really done to the ex-communist lands.

No, that came later under capitalism:

"In the 10 years after the collapse of the Soviet Union, there were somewhere between 3 million and 7 million excess deaths."13 Jan 2018


Quote:

We're seeing footage of what it's really like now in China, but I'd bet it's 10 times worse in reality.

You'd bet? Of course you have to push your delusional "inalienable rights" delusion , so don't let the facts get in the way - like a middle class of 400 million, set  to reach 800 million by 2030. 
[/quote]
It's nothing to do with "inalienable rights". China is a dump. Groundwater mostly poisoned throughout the country; forced labour camps all over the country (not just in Xinjiang); poverty rife in rural areas.

Just as the Soviet Union was before its collapse.

Quote:

How so? Quote: On a per capita basis, that is a fraction of Americas.

Duh


Quote:

Correct.

So, Chinese people earn on average a fraction of what Americans do.


Quote:

"World Bank estimates of the Gini coefficient – an economic measure showing the level of income inequality in a country – put China among the most unequal major global economies, behind most of Europe, but ahead of the US.  23 Aug 2021"

So, a Chinese people on on average a fraction of what westerners do, and their wealth distribution is more unequal than that of most western nations. And you think that is something to brag about?

On this list, using the world bank gini index, Australia comes in at 77, ahead of China at 104. The only countries that rank worse than China that I recognise as wealthy are the US and Israel. Other than those two, pretty much every wealthy nation also has a more equal wealth distribution than China (as well as plenty of shitholes).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2022 at 6:19pm:

You are seriously deluded. Chinese earn on average 1/6 as much as Americans, and there is a huge wealth disparity in China. There are for more poor people in China.

Thats because they don't have UNIONS FD :D :D

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 10^th, 2022 at 11:21am:

freediver wrote on Feb 9th, 2022 at 6:20pm: Nothing has changed to our understanding since 1960. The CCP has removed it's head from it's arse. Re the West: true, that's why poverty remains entrenched in the West despite material advancement. Whereas the CCP has changed as you say, which is why common prosperity is rapidly  being attained in China.

TGD, do you think it is a bit hypocritical to insist that western nations have "entrenched poverty" when Chinese people earn a fraction of what we do on average as well has having a far less equal distribution of wealth?

Is this why you were so reluctant to back up what you say with evidence?

In Australia, unemployment benefits come to approximately US$10600 per year. This is more than double the median income in China.

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 21^st, 2022 at 3:50pm:

Frank wrote on Feb 21st, 2022 at 3:08pm: China's eerie ghost cities a 'symptom' of the country's economic troubles and housing bubble https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-27/china-ghost-cities-show-growth-driven-by-debt/9912186 Key points: There may be as many as 64 million empty apartments in China Many people buy the properties as an investment with no intention of ever moving in Author says ghost cities show growth is driven by debt in China Designed for populations numbering in the hundreds of thousands, the mass construction projects can include towering high-rise condominiums, huge shopping centres, city squares, street lights and replicas of cities in Europe and elsewhere. Kitch cities by kitch people. Growth driven by debt? Actually, given increasing employment working from home, those empty units (and cities)  will soon be able to be put to good use. Meanwhile prof. Bill Mitchell alerts us to the nonsense that passes for economic analysis re government debt, in the mainstream press in Oz: http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=49264 There are some Op Eds that are bad, and then others that transcend that standard to become terrible. Such was the case last week when I read this article in the Australian press (Sydney Morning Herald) (February 18, 2022) – "It’s time to return to Costello economics, whoever wins the federal election" – which was written by a former advisor to the last Labor Prime Minister in Australia. The article is dishonest in that it completely ignores the most significant aspects of the period he seeks to eulogise. It is also scary if it reflects current Labor Party thinking, given the author’s previous associations.

You Chinese commies are monomaniacally kitsch people living in a kitsch country with kitsch ideas, kitsch aspirations and hope.
Robots, in short.

freediver wrote on Feb 20^th, 2022 at 8:49pm:

Athos, can you tell the difference between evidence and propaganda? How do you think Chinese compare to Americans on wealth or wealth inequality?

This guy who produced those videos is your Anglo brother from your mama Britain.
;D

Australian fast speed train race.
  :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ7bz2nzztE

athos wrote on Feb 21^st, 2022 at 6:10pm:

Australian fast speed train race.   :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ7bz2nzztE

Ya dork - that's a vintage Garrett complete with red rattlers.... haven't been in service for decades.  My grandfather used to drive the Newcastle Flyer  ..

https://render.fineartamerica.com/images/rendered/default/acrylic-print/10/6.5/hangingwire/break/images/artworkimages/medium/2/newcastle-flyer-john-bradley.jpg

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 21^st, 2022 at 4:18pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 21st, 2022 at 1:58pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 21st, 2022 at 12:21pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 21st, 2022 at 12:06pm: athos wrote on Feb 20th, 2022 at 6:31pm: Living in China vs Living in America (Part 2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsZtuAOMegQ&t=30s Jason...on seeing the full size child's train in a new shopping centre in China: "..look here, a train...kinda reminds me of a high speed train in America"... Priceless.  :-) High speed trains that go to nowhere or ghost cities. Nonsense. China's network attracts millions of passengers, and is profitable. Quote: Still, it artificially inflates China's GDP; so, good for propaganda. Spoken like a true propagandist... Actually, your junk "consumer" society could learn that investment in infrastructure is more productive than investment in profit-driven  junk consumerism.  Westerners saw all this 'progress' during the soviet and eastern European era of totalitarian regimes. Stalin was particularly good at playing the tour guide whenever his useful idiots were in town. When communism collapsed in eastern Europe and Russia, then we got to see what a giant gulag and wasteland communism had really done to the ex-communist lands. We're seeing footage of what it's really like now in China, but I'd bet it's 10 times worse in reality.

Actually Robert Hughes in his book "The Fatal Shore" stated that Australia was established as the most gigantic and inescapable Gulag in the human history much before Stalin's prison camps.

"The brutal transportation of men, women and children out of Georgian Britain into a horrific penal system which was to be the precursor to the Gulag and was the origin of Australia"

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/P/B003ATPQ8E.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_SX500_.jpg

My grandfather had a Chinese urn!

What's a Chinese urn?

Oh - about seven grand a year!

athos wrote on Feb 21^st, 2022 at 6:43pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 21st, 2022 at 4:18pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 21st, 2022 at 1:58pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 21st, 2022 at 12:21pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 21st, 2022 at 12:06pm: athos wrote on Feb 20th, 2022 at 6:31pm: Living in China vs Living in America (Part 2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsZtuAOMegQ&t=30s Jason...on seeing the full size child's train in a new shopping centre in China: "..look here, a train...kinda reminds me of a high speed train in America"... Priceless.  :-) High speed trains that go to nowhere or ghost cities. Nonsense. China's network attracts millions of passengers, and is profitable. Quote: Still, it artificially inflates China's GDP; so, good for propaganda. Spoken like a true propagandist... Actually, your junk "consumer" society could learn that investment in infrastructure is more productive than investment in profit-driven  junk consumerism.  Westerners saw all this 'progress' during the soviet and eastern European era of totalitarian regimes. Stalin was particularly good at playing the tour guide whenever his useful idiots were in town. When communism collapsed in eastern Europe and Russia, then we got to see what a giant gulag and wasteland communism had really done to the ex-communist lands. We're seeing footage of what it's really like now in China, but I'd bet it's 10 times worse in reality. Actually Robert Hughes in his book "The Fatal Shore" stated that Australia was established as the most gigantic and inescapable Gulag in the human history much before Stalin's prison camps. "The brutal transportation of men, women and children out of Georgian Britain into a horrific penal system which was to be the precursor to the Gulag and was the origin of Australia" https://m.media-amazon.com/images/P/B003ATPQ8E.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_SX500_.jpg

Pretty hard to escape when home is six months hard sailing away....

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Feb 21^st, 2022 at 6:42pm:

athos wrote on Feb 21st, 2022 at 6:10pm: Australian fast speed train race.   :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ7bz2nzztE Ya dork - that's a vintage Garrett complete with red rattlers.... haven't been in service for decades.  My grandfather used to drive the Newcastle Flyer  .. https://render.fineartamerica.com/images/rendered/default/acrylic-print/10/6.5/hangingwire/break/images/artworkimages/medium/2/newcastle-flyer-john-bradley.jpg

Not far from the Australian present railway reality.
;D

athos wrote on Feb 21^st, 2022 at 5:58pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 20th, 2022 at 8:49pm: Athos, can you tell the difference between evidence and propaganda? This guy who produced those videos is your Anglo brother from your mama Britain. ;D

I'll take that as a no.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 21^st, 2022 at 4:51pm:

It's nothing to do with "inalienable rights".

The whole sovereignty/ 'election by representation' BS is based on that very delusion. If the King is not sovereign, who is? The individual of course....based on "inherent inalienable rights". Delusional. 



Quote:

China is a dump. Groundwater mostly poisoned throughout the country; forced labour camps all over the country (not just in Xinjiang); poverty rife in rural areas.

China is lifting 1.4 billion people out of poverty at the fastest rate in history. That's why China poured more cement 2010-2013 than the US in the entire 20th century.


Quote:

Just as the Soviet Union was before its collapse

The USSR shrank after the demise of communism.  Before that:

The Soviet Union maintained itself as the second largest economy in both nominal and purchasing power parity values for much of the Cold War until 1990, when Japan's economy exceeded $3 trillion in nominal value.[24]

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 21^st, 2022 at 7:24pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 21st, 2022 at 4:51pm: It's nothing to do with "inalienable rights". The whole sovereignty/ 'election by representation' BS is based on that very delusion. If the King is not sovereign, who is? The individual of course....based on "inherent inalienable rights". Delusional.  Quote: China is a dump. Groundwater mostly poisoned throughout the country; forced labour camps all over the country (not just in Xinjiang); poverty rife in rural areas. China is lifting 1.4 billion people out of poverty at the fastest rate in history. That's why China poured more cement 2010-2013 than the US in the entire 20th century. [quote]Just as the Soviet Union was before its collapse

The USSR shrank after the demise of communism.  Before that:

The Soviet Union maintained itself as the second largest economy in both nominal and purchasing power parity values for much of the Cold War until 1990, when Japan's economy exceeded $3 trillion in nominal value.[24]
[/quote]
Funny how the Chinese don't even trust each other; it's why Chinese marketers like foreigners plugging Chinese products.

We all know what we will find when the CCP collapses. It's the one reason the Chinese can count on for not being invaded when the CCP does collapse.

There is no such thing a sovereign individuality by virtue of being an individual - at least not in the west. But, as you repeat it often, it's likely that that's how you think the Chinese would define themselves if they got out from under the CCP. Could explain why they have so much trouble coming together as a team on a sports field.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 21^st, 2022 at 7:50pm:

Funny how the Chinese don't even trust each other; it's why Chinese marketers like foreigners plugging Chinese products.

 

That all you got - diversionary nonsense.


Quote:

We all know what we will find when the CCP collapses. It's the one reason the Chinese can count on for not being invaded when the CCP does collapse.

More ideological nonsense,  hence no attempt to reply to the post at hand. 


Quote:

There is no such thing a sovereign individuality by virtue of being an individual

Ah ...at last you are returning to the debate.

So,  I'm glad you acknowledge that much.


Quote:

- at least not in the west.

Pray tell us then,  what is the basis of election by naturally self-interested  "free" individuals, if none of them is "sovereign, as an individual".


Quote:

But, as you repeat it often, it's likely that that's how you think the Chinese would define themselves if they got out from under the CCP.

No, the Chinese have learnt to accept the advantageous of government by consensus and meritocracy. They reject the hyper-partisan, achieve-nothing  rabble of adversarial 'democratic' deluded ideologues which they are witnessing in the West.


Quote:

Could explain why they have so much trouble coming together as a team on a sports field.

You mean like Albo (not to mention ASIO) having so much trouble coming together with Scomo, over China?

Great "team work" there.....

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 21^st, 2022 at 8:12pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 21st, 2022 at 7:50pm: Funny how the Chinese don't even trust each other; it's why Chinese marketers like foreigners plugging Chinese products.   That all you got - diversionary nonsense. Quote: We all know what we will find when the CCP collapses. It's the one reason the Chinese can count on for not being invaded when the CCP does collapse. More ideological nonsense,  hence no attempt to reply to the post at hand.  [quote]There is no such thing a sovereign individuality by virtue of being an individual

Ah ...at last you are returning to the debate.

So,  I'm glad you acknowledge that much.


Quote:

- at least not in the west.

Pray tell us then,  what is the basis of election by naturally self-interested  "free" individuals, if none of them is "sovereign, as an individual".


Quote:

But, as you repeat it often, it's likely that that's how you think the Chinese would define themselves if they got out from under the CCP.

No, the Chinese have learnt to accept the advantageous of government by consensus and meritocracy. They reject the hyper-partisan, achieve-nothing  rabble of adversarial 'democratic' deluded ideologues which they are witnessing in the West.


Quote:

Could explain why they have so much trouble coming together as a team on a sports field.

You mean like Albo (not to mention ASIO) having so much trouble coming together with Scomo, over China?

Great "team work" there.....
[/quote]
Ah yes, 'sovereign individuality', 'We the Chinese', 'common prosperity','consensus and meritocracy', 'high speed rail' (many to ghost towns) that run at a massive loss!

How's corruption in the army going? The Jiang faction controls the army, not the Xi faction. How did Jiang manufacture loyalty of the army?

Quote:

More ideological nonsense, hence no attempt to reply to the post at hand.

I notice you have abandoned you idiotic propaganda about poverty being entrenched in the west.

Were you unaware that our unemployed get paid more than twice as much as a typical Chinese person earns? Been drinking the CCP coolaid?

freediver wrote on Feb 21^st, 2022 at 8:35pm:

Quote: More ideological nonsense, hence no attempt to reply to the post at hand. I notice you have abandoned you idiotic propaganda about poverty being entrenched in the west. Were you unaware that our unemployed get paid more than twice as much as a typical Chinese person earns? Been drinking the CCP coolaid?

And the Chinese can forget about free healthcare. You pay for everything in China; for the service and often a bribe or a 'tip'.

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 21^st, 2022 at 8:12pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 21st, 2022 at 7:50pm: Funny how the Chinese don't even trust each other; it's why Chinese marketers like foreigners plugging Chinese products.   That all you got - diversionary nonsense. Quote: We all know what we will find when the CCP collapses. It's the one reason the Chinese can count on for not being invaded when the CCP does collapse. More ideological nonsense,  hence no attempt to reply to the post at hand.  [quote]There is no such thing a sovereign individuality by virtue of being an individual

Ah ...at last you are returning to the debate.

So,  I'm glad you acknowledge that much.


Quote:

- at least not in the west.

Pray tell us then,  what is the basis of election by naturally self-interested  "free" individuals, if none of them is "sovereign, as an individual".


Quote:

But, as you repeat it often, it's likely that that's how you think the Chinese would define themselves if they got out from under the CCP.

No, the Chinese have learnt to accept the advantageous of government by consensus and meritocracy. They reject the hyper-partisan, achieve-nothing  rabble of adversarial 'democratic' deluded ideologues which they are witnessing in the West.


Quote:

Could explain why they have so much trouble coming together as a team on a sports field.

You mean like Albo (not to mention ASIO) having so much trouble coming together with Scomo, over China?

Great "team work" there.....
[/quote]

https://youtu.be/7DqvweTYTI0

Frank wrote on Feb 21^st, 2022 at 8:50pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 21st, 2022 at 8:12pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 21st, 2022 at 7:50pm: Funny how the Chinese don't even trust each other; it's why Chinese marketers like foreigners plugging Chinese products.   That all you got - diversionary nonsense. Quote: We all know what we will find when the CCP collapses. It's the one reason the Chinese can count on for not being invaded when the CCP does collapse. More ideological nonsense,  hence no attempt to reply to the post at hand.  [quote]There is no such thing a sovereign individuality by virtue of being an individual Ah ...at last you are returning to the debate. So,  I'm glad you acknowledge that much. [quote]- at least not in the west.

Pray tell us then,  what is the basis of election by naturally self-interested  "free" individuals, if none of them is "sovereign, as an individual".


Quote:

But, as you repeat it often, it's likely that that's how you think the Chinese would define themselves if they got out from under the CCP.

No, the Chinese have learnt to accept the advantageous of government by consensus and meritocracy. They reject the hyper-partisan, achieve-nothing  rabble of adversarial 'democratic' deluded ideologues which they are witnessing in the West.


Quote:

Could explain why they have so much trouble coming together as a team on a sports field.

You mean like Albo (not to mention ASIO) having so much trouble coming together with Scomo, over China?

Great "team work" there.....
[/quote]

https://youtu.be/7DqvweTYTI0[/quote]

Poor Frank, reduced to relying on  Monty sketches, for support....

Were you unaware that our unemployed get paid more than twice as much as a typical Chinese person earns? Been drinking the CCP coolaid?

Let me know if you are having difficulty understanding the question.

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2022 at 12:58pm:

Poor Frank, reduced to relying on  Monty sketches, for support....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCSk7Npeytg

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2022 at 5:03pm:

Were you unaware that our unemployed get paid more than twice as much as a typical Chinese person earns? Been drinking the CCP coolaid? Let me know if you are having difficulty understanding the question.

You are obviously incapable of understanding the process of lifting 1.4 billion people out of absolute poverty. 

Hence you insist on comparing apples with oranges.

Frank wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2022 at 6:35pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 12:58pm: Poor Frank, reduced to relying on  Monty sketches, for support.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCSk7Npeytg

And now Elvis; you could try raising the intellectual standards supporting your ideology.... but on reflection your previous attempts have been a failure, as must be the outcome of any attempt to rationalize Western Conservatism (or Liberalism...).

When you are ready to support an international rules- based system, consigning the obsolete concept of absolute national sovereignty to the dust-bin of history,  let me know.   

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2022 at 8:37pm:

Frank wrote on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 6:35pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 12:58pm: Poor Frank, reduced to relying on  Monty sketches, for support.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCSk7Npeytg And now Elvis; you could try raising the intellectual standards supporting your ideology.... but on reflection your previous attempts have been a failure, as must be the outcome of any attempt to rationalize Western Conservatism (or Liberalism...). When you are ready to support an international rules- based system, consigning the obsolete concept of absolute national sovereignty to the dust-bin of history,  let me know.

You are a mindless Chinese mong.

Disprove that, bozo. How would an international rules based system change you from a fccn idiot into an intelligent, thoughtful and articulate person?

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2022 at 8:29pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 5:03pm: Were you unaware that our unemployed get paid more than twice as much as a typical Chinese person earns? Been drinking the CCP coolaid? Let me know if you are having difficulty understanding the question. You are obviously incapable of understanding the process of lifting 1.4 billion people out of absolute poverty.  Hence you insist on comparing apples with oranges.

You are the one who made the comparison. You said poverty is entrenched in the west. Yet here in Australia we are far wealthier than the Chinese, with a more equal distribution of wealth. We are closer to the socialist ideal than China. Do you think it is a bit hypocritical to suggest poverty is entrenched here, when you are so far below us?

Also, you keep bringing up the large population excuse, but you always run away when asked to explain why it is relevant.

Frank wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2022 at 9:42pm:

You are a mindless Chinese mong. Disprove that, bozo.

That's not debate, nor is it relevant what race I am. 


Quote:

How would an international rules based system change you from a fccn idiot into an intelligent, thoughtful and articulate person?

That's not relevant either.

What is relevant is the contradiction between absolute national sovereignty and an international rules-based system.

Hence we see the pro-Western Ukraine fools demanding to join the obsolete anti-Russian NATO "freedom" ideologues.
Putin would have accepted an assurance by Ukraine it did not intend to join NATO.

An example of the CCP's propaganda slaves, known as wumao or little pinks.


https://sustainabilitymattersdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/JenniferZeng.png

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2022 at 10:58am:

Frank wrote on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 9:42pm: You are a mindless Chinese mong. Disprove that, bozo. That's not debate, nor is it relevant what race I am.  Quote: How would an international rules based system change you from a fccn idiot into an intelligent, thoughtful and articulate person? That's not relevant either. What is relevant is the contradiction between absolute national sovereignty and an international rules-based system. Hence we see the pro-Western Ukraine fools demanding to join the obsolete anti-Russian NATO "freedom" ideologues. Putin would have accepted an assurance by Ukraine it did not intend to join NATO.

Do you think poverty is entrenched in the west?

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2022 at 1:37pm:

Do you think poverty is entrenched in the west?

Of course.

From the horse's mouth, Trump himself (re US black ghettos):

"you are living in poverty, your neighborhoods are like war zones, your schools and hospitals are broken, your young men are in prison...."

Entrenched.

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2022 at 2:15pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 1:37pm: Do you think poverty is entrenched in the west? Of course. From the horse's mouth, Trump himself (re US black ghettos): "you are living in poverty, your neighborhoods are like war zones, your schools and hospitals are broken, your young men are in prison...." Entrenched.

So black ghettos in the US are "the West".

So stupid, it must be your idea. No, wait, you are just a paid little Chinese shill. It's must be your oberstrumfuhrer's idea (or whatever you call your boss in the agit-prop typing pool).

Frank wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2022 at 2:31pm:

So black ghettos in the US are "the West".

Indeed, in the very citadel, the "Shining Light on the Hill" of Western democracy.   


Quote:

So stupid, it must be your idea. No, wait, you are just a paid little Chinese shill. It's must be your oberstrumfuhrer's idea (or whatever you call your boss in the agit-prop typing pool).

Moreover, 1 in 6 kids are STILL living in poverty in Oz (google it), 30 years after Bob Hawke said "no child need be living in poverty"... 

And Paris? You won't make it far from a Paris rail station without being accosted by beggars.

By definition, the current neoliberal system MUST entrench poverty (in the absence of high taxation, as in the Nordic countries which are nevertheless not free of poverty)  because unemployment is used as a  tool to manage inflation, in the dysfunctional  NAIRU Western economies.

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2022 at 2:59pm:

And Paris? You won't make it far from a Paris rail station without being accosted by beggars.

Or Melbourne.... or Bangkok..... 


Police have charged seven people over an alleged "professional begging" operation in which elderly Chinese people were flown to Melbourne on tourist visas to target passers-by in the CBD.

Officers charged a group of seven Chinese nationals with begging and possessing property suspected of being the proceeds of crime during a targeted operation in the city centre on Monday and Tuesday.

Police said they arrested three women aged 65, 67 and 71 and two men aged 68 and 72.
....

Earlier this year the Bangkok Post reported that six Chinese nationals, including three in wheelchairs, were arrested for begging on Bangkok's streets.

All had entered the country on tourist visas and most had overstayed.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-05/melbourne-cbd-professional-beggars-charged-by-police/11280738

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2022 at 2:15pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 1:37pm: Do you think poverty is entrenched in the west? Of course. From the horse's mouth, Trump himself (re US black ghettos): "you are living in poverty, your neighborhoods are like war zones, your schools and hospitals are broken, your young men are in prison...." Entrenched.

Is it entrenched in China?

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2022 at 4:49pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 2:15pm: freediver wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 1:37pm: Do you think poverty is entrenched in the west? Of course. From the horse's mouth, Trump himself (re US black ghettos): "you are living in poverty, your neighborhoods are like war zones, your schools and hospitals are broken, your young men are in prison...." Entrenched. Is it entrenched in China?

No, not entrenched.  China is lifting the largest number of people out of absolute poverty at the fastest rate in history,  which means it will be able to achieve its goal of  "a prosperous socialist society in all respects" by mid-century; whereas poverty will still be entrenched in most Western countries  (except possibly those who have high taxation rates).

By definition, the current Western neoliberal system MUST entrench poverty (in the absence of high taxation, as in the Nordic countries which are nevertheless not free of poverty)  because unemployment is used as a  tool to manage inflation, in the dysfunctional  NAIRU Western economies.

Can you explain how, if poverty is entrenched in the west, but not in China, our unemployed get paid more than twice as much as the median Chinese wage? And most western countries have more equal distribution of wealth than China?


Quote:

By definition, the current Western neoliberal system MUST entrench poverty (in the absence of high taxation, as in the Nordic countries which are nevertheless not free of poverty)  because unemployment is used as a  tool to manage inflation

Whose definition is this?

Frank wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2022 at 4:39pm:

Or Melbourne.... or Bangkok.....  Police have charged seven people over an alleged "professional begging" operation in which elderly Chinese people were flown to Melbourne on tourist visas to target passers-by in the CBD. Officers charged a group of seven Chinese nationals with begging and possessing property suspected of being the proceeds of crime during a targeted operation in the city centre on Monday and Tuesday. Police said they arrested three women aged 65, 67 and 71 and two men aged 68 and 72. .... Earlier this year the Bangkok Post reported that six Chinese nationals, including three in wheelchairs, were arrested for begging on Bangkok's streets. All had entered the country on tourist visas and most had overstayed. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-05/melbourne-cbd-professional-beggars-charged-by-police/11280738

Or New York or Detroit, or everywhere and anywhere in our broken world.

Trump of course undoubtedly caused pain in China as he crippled large Chinese companies like Huawei, but it seems the trade war is backfiring because the US-China trade deficit in still increasing in China's favor.

Meanwhile the whole world loses, with reduced supply chains and higher prices.

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2022 at 5:12pm:

Frank wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 4:39pm: Or Melbourne.... or Bangkok.....  Police have charged seven people over an alleged "professional begging" operation in which elderly Chinese people were flown to Melbourne on tourist visas to target passers-by in the CBD. Officers charged a group of seven Chinese nationals with begging and possessing property suspected of being the proceeds of crime during a targeted operation in the city centre on Monday and Tuesday. Police said they arrested three women aged 65, 67 and 71 and two men aged 68 and 72. .... Earlier this year the Bangkok Post reported that six Chinese nationals, including three in wheelchairs, were arrested for begging on Bangkok's streets. All had entered the country on tourist visas and most had overstayed. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-05/melbourne-cbd-professional-beggars-charged-by-police/11280738 Or New York or Detroit, or everywhere and anywhere in our broken world. Trump of course undoubtedly caused pain in China as he crippled large Chinese companies like Huawei, but it seems the trade war is backfiring because the US-China trade deficit in still increasing in China's favor. Meanwhile the whole world loses, with reduced supply chains and higher prices.

China is fccd, its days in the sun  are over. An international pariah for the next few decades.

Thegreatdivide explained:




Why Carl Schmitt Matters to China
Uncovering the pathology of Schmitt Fever.

Schmitt’s ideas continue to influence thinkers across the political spectrum, no example of which is straightforward. Theorists of many persuasions are attracted to Schmitt’s view that liberalism tends toward “depoliticizations” and “neutralizations”––in other words, the banality of positivist-technocratic evil.
...
the essence of Schmitt’s ideas about politics, culture, law, and society are deployed in China either “as justifications for the total power of the state and the elimination of challenges from civil society…or, alternatively, as articulating dissatisfaction with…the possibilities afforded by Western liberalism.”

https://hedgehogreview.com/web-features/thr/posts/why-carl-schmitt-matters-to-china

Frank wrote on Mar 21^st, 2022 at 8:43am:

Thegreatdivide explained: Why Carl Schmitt Matters to China Uncovering the pathology of Schmitt Fever. Schmitt’s ideas continue to influence thinkers across the political spectrum, no example of which is straightforward. Theorists of many persuasions are attracted to Schmitt’s view that liberalism tends toward “depoliticizations” and “neutralizations”––in other words, the banality of positivist-technocratic evil. ... the essence of Schmitt’s ideas about politics, culture, law, and society are deployed in China either “as justifications for the total power of the state and the elimination of challenges from civil society…or, alternatively, as articulating dissatisfaction with…the possibilities afforded by Western liberalism.” https://hedgehogreview.com/web-features/thr/posts/why-carl-schmitt-matters-to-china

Fully explored  in the "Western Culture" thread, today. (21 March).

Your love of the law of the jungle (entrenched by delusional classical liberalism) in the age of MAD is ...genocidal.

Frank wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2022 at 9:26pm:

China is fccd, its days in the sun  are over. An international pariah for the next few decades.

 

China is debating MMT ... as is the West; watch out if  the PBofC  finally wakes up to the power at its fingertips...(it's all about resources, not money).

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2022 at 5:04pm:

Can you explain how, if poverty is entrenched in the west, but not in China, our unemployed get paid more than twice as much as the median Chinese wage?

Western countries were already wealthy when the USSR collapsed, yet poverty was and is entrenched.

Whereas 90% of Chinese were living in absolute poverty at that time;  and now 400 million Chinese are in the middle class, and absolute poverty has been eradicated. It's recognized the world over as an "economic miracle'.   


Quote:

And most western countries have more equal distribution of wealth than China?

Yet the lowest decile in China has advanced in the last 30 years more than the lowest decile in the US, over the same time. 


Quote:

Whose definition is this?

The neoliberal definition: NAIRU = non-accelerating inflation rate of unemployment.

It's false neoliberal narrative. Inflation need not be contained by unemployment.

Unfortunately, this is not far from the truth.
>:(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iPDxjocKOw&t=120s

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2022 at 1:59pm:

Frank wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 9:26pm: China is fccd, its days in the sun  are over. An international pariah for the next few decades.   China is debating MMT ... as is the West; watch out if  the PBofC  finally wakes up to the power at its fingertips...(it's all about resources, not money).

China, Russia are fccd. Nobody will stand for moronic dictators like them any more. Treating thugs nicely is over.

China's free ride is over.

Frank wrote on Mar 21^st, 2022 at 8:39pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21st, 2022 at 1:59pm: Frank wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 9:26pm: China is fccd, its days in the sun  are over. An international pariah for the next few decades.   China is debating MMT ... as is the West; watch out if  the PBofC  finally wakes up to the power at its fingertips...(it's all about resources, not money). China, Russia are fccd. Nobody will stand for moronic dictators like them any more. Treating thugs nicely is over. China's free ride is over.

What a moronic comment?
;D

Frank wrote on Mar 21^st, 2022 at 8:39pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21st, 2022 at 1:59pm: Frank wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 9:26pm: China is fccd, its days in the sun  are over. An international pariah for the next few decades.   China is debating MMT ... as is the West; watch out if  the PBofC  finally wakes up to the power at its fingertips...(it's all about resources, not money). China, Russia are fccd. Nobody will stand for moronic dictators like them any more. Treating thugs nicely is over. China's free ride is over.

Oh-er, China's poised to become the number one economy, old boy. Over?

China is about to begin. No country can isolate China as they've done with Russia. It's too important to global supply chains.

Even a bot can see this, dear. You?

Karnal wrote on Mar 21^st, 2022 at 9:37pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 21st, 2022 at 8:39pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21st, 2022 at 1:59pm: Frank wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 9:26pm: China is fccd, its days in the sun  are over. An international pariah for the next few decades.   China is debating MMT ... as is the West; watch out if  the PBofC  finally wakes up to the power at its fingertips...(it's all about resources, not money). China, Russia are fccd. Nobody will stand for moronic dictators like them any more. Treating thugs nicely is over. China's free ride is over. Oh-er, China's poised to become the number one economy, old boy. Over? China is about to begin. No country can isolate China as they've done with Russia. It's too important to global supply chains. Even a bot can see this, dear. You?

Japan was poised to be the number one economy in the 1990s.

China is being detached from the West strategically. Dependence on China is scaled back. Trust in China is SEVERELY scaled back. It's support for Russia will only accelerate all that.

China will have to make its own people richer and rely less on exporting to the West under false promises it made when it was allowed into the WTO. And when the Chinese are richer they will boot the CCP.
There is no long term future for communist dictatorships just as there isn't for fascist ones.

Frank wrote on Mar 24^th, 2022 at 5:46pm:

Japan was poised to be the number one economy in the 1990s.

Yes, and what happened? Some say external forces as well as internal mistakes prevented Japan from overtaking the US.  But in any case Japan is only 100 million people.


Quote:

China is being detached from the West strategically. Dependence on China is scaled back. Trust in China is SEVERELY scaled back. It's support for Russia will only accelerate all that.

Certainly the US - desperate to maintain global hegemony - is spreading the "China threat" theory....


Quote:

China will have to make its own people richer and rely less on exporting to the West under false promises it made when it was allowed into the WTO.

False promises? [note: the WTO itself has been incapacitated by Trump who refused to allow timely elections in the WTO bureaucracy).


Quote:

And when the Chinese are richer they will boot the CCP.

How much richer? When China is the double the US economy? Why would they boot the CCP?


Quote:

There is no long term future for communist dictatorships just as there isn't for fascist ones.

Correct; but a consensus meritocracy is neither of those.






[/quote]

Frank wrote on Mar 24^th, 2022 at 5:46pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 21st, 2022 at 9:37pm: Frank wrote on Mar 21st, 2022 at 8:39pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21st, 2022 at 1:59pm: Frank wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 9:26pm: China is fccd, its days in the sun  are over. An international pariah for the next few decades.   China is debating MMT ... as is the West; watch out if  the PBofC  finally wakes up to the power at its fingertips...(it's all about resources, not money). China, Russia are fccd. Nobody will stand for moronic dictators like them any more. Treating thugs nicely is over. China's free ride is over. Oh-er, China's poised to become the number one economy, old boy. Over? China is about to begin. No country can isolate China as they've done with Russia. It's too important to global supply chains. Even a bot can see this, dear. You? Japan was poised to be the number one economy in the 1990s. China is being detached from the West strategically. Dependence on China is scaled back. Trust in China is SEVERELY scaled back. It's support for Russia will only accelerate all that. China will have to make its own people richer and rely less on exporting to the West under false promises it made when it was allowed into the WTO. And when the Chinese are richer they will boot the CCP. There is no long term future for communist dictatorships just as there isn't for fascist ones.

Japan was never poised for long, old boy. It doesn't have the population.

If you're making the claim that China will NOT overtake America's GDP in the next decade, you're perhaps the only person in the world to do so.

But that's okay. China WILL become number one, as every schoolboy knows. Year 9 maths, innit.

China has proven that there is indeed a future for communist dictatorships whether we like this or not.

So unfair, no?

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 25^th, 2022 at 3:13pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 24th, 2022 at 5:46pm: Japan was poised to be the number one economy in the 1990s. Yes, and what happened? Some say external forces as well as internal mistakes prevented Japan from overtaking the US.  But in any case Japan is only 100 million people. Quote: China is being detached from the West strategically. Dependence on China is scaled back. Trust in China is SEVERELY scaled back. It's support for Russia will only accelerate all that. Certainly the US - desperate to maintain global hegemony - is spreading the "China threat" theory.... [quote]China will have to make its own people richer and rely less on exporting to the West under false promises it made when it was allowed into the WTO.

False promises? [note: the WTO itself has been incapacitated by Trump who refused to allow timely elections in the WTO bureaucracy).


Quote:

And when the Chinese are richer they will boot the CCP.

How much richer? When China is the double the US economy? Why would they boot the CCP?


Quote:

There is no long term future for communist dictatorships just as there isn't for fascist ones.

Correct; but a consensus meritocracy is neither of those.






[/quote]

Actually, Great, until you came here I questioned the China "threat" theory myself. Alas, you've made China's ambitions all too clear.

You and Athos have both expressed your desire for Chinese military domination. You both expect China to assert itself upon the rest of us at some point.

You've also made it clear that you have a beef with countries whose citizens vote. I would have thought there'd be more subtlety in our discussions here, but no. You genuinely see the world in terms of vetocracies and autocraticies - hence your support for Russia.

Until you confirmed this view in your own posts, I never would have seen this. Without you, I'd be hosing down talk of  Chinese military expansion and domination. Unfortunately, you've confirmed it.

We don't have genuine democracy in Australia, but Australians do hold the ideal of democracy to be self evident, just from different angles. You don't value it at all.

More, you're quite happy to support autocracies just for being autocratic, as you do with Putin, who has no socialist sympathies whatsoever. You're quite comfortable for your party to ally with dictators in the struggle against Western liberal democracy.

Therein lies a great divide, dear.

Karnal wrote on Mar 26^th, 2022 at 4:13pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 24th, 2022 at 5:46pm: Karnal wrote on Mar 21st, 2022 at 9:37pm: Frank wrote on Mar 21st, 2022 at 8:39pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21st, 2022 at 1:59pm: Frank wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 9:26pm: China is fccd, its days in the sun  are over. An international pariah for the next few decades.   China is debating MMT ... as is the West; watch out if  the PBofC  finally wakes up to the power at its fingertips...(it's all about resources, not money). China, Russia are fccd. Nobody will stand for moronic dictators like them any more. Treating thugs nicely is over. China's free ride is over. Oh-er, China's poised to become the number one economy, old boy. Over? China is about to begin. No country can isolate China as they've done with Russia. It's too important to global supply chains. Even a bot can see this, dear. You? Japan was poised to be the number one economy in the 1990s. China is being detached from the West strategically. Dependence on China is scaled back. Trust in China is SEVERELY scaled back. It's support for Russia will only accelerate all that. China will have to make its own people richer and rely less on exporting to the West under false promises it made when it was allowed into the WTO. And when the Chinese are richer they will boot the CCP. There is no long term future for communist dictatorships just as there isn't for fascist ones. Japan was never poised for long, old boy. It doesn't have the population. If you're making the claim that China will NOT overtake America's GDP in the next decade, you're perhaps the only person in the world to do so. But that's okay. China WILL become number one, as every schoolboy knows. Year 9 maths, innit. China has proven that there is indeed a future for communist dictatorships whether we like this or not. So unfair, no?

China is poorer PER CAPITA than Costa Rica or Botswana.

75      Azerbaijan      $17,450      $4,139      102%
76      Costa Rica      $17,110      $11,573      100%
77      Botswana      $17,024      $7,894      100%
78      Iraq      $16,935      $5,114      99%
79      China      $16,842      $8,612      98%
80      Maldives      $16,688      $9,802      98%
81      Dominican Republic      $16,064      $7,223      94%
https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/

The Chinese will get old, not rich.

Also, it will be first gay military power since Sparta: there is a severe gender imbalance in the country - last year, there were 34.9 million more males than females. This is a hangover of the country's strict one-child policy, which was introduced in 1979 to slow population growth.
BBC headline:
China: The men who are single and the women who don't want kids

Frank wrote on Mar 26^th, 2022 at 8:50pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 26th, 2022 at 4:13pm: Frank wrote on Mar 24th, 2022 at 5:46pm: Karnal wrote on Mar 21st, 2022 at 9:37pm: Frank wrote on Mar 21st, 2022 at 8:39pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21st, 2022 at 1:59pm: Frank wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 9:26pm: China is fccd, its days in the sun  are over. An international pariah for the next few decades.   China is debating MMT ... as is the West; watch out if  the PBofC  finally wakes up to the power at its fingertips...(it's all about resources, not money). China, Russia are fccd. Nobody will stand for moronic dictators like them any more. Treating thugs nicely is over. China's free ride is over. Oh-er, China's poised to become the number one economy, old boy. Over? China is about to begin. No country can isolate China as they've done with Russia. It's too important to global supply chains. Even a bot can see this, dear. You? Japan was poised to be the number one economy in the 1990s. China is being detached from the West strategically. Dependence on China is scaled back. Trust in China is SEVERELY scaled back. It's support for Russia will only accelerate all that. China will have to make its own people richer and rely less on exporting to the West under false promises it made when it was allowed into the WTO. And when the Chinese are richer they will boot the CCP. There is no long term future for communist dictatorships just as there isn't for fascist ones. Japan was never poised for long, old boy. It doesn't have the population. If you're making the claim that China will NOT overtake America's GDP in the next decade, you're perhaps the only person in the world to do so. But that's okay. China WILL become number one, as every schoolboy knows. Year 9 maths, innit. China has proven that there is indeed a future for communist dictatorships whether we like this or not. So unfair, no? China is poorer PER CAPITA than Costa Rica or Botswana. 75      Azerbaijan      $17,450      $4,139      102% 76      Costa Rica      $17,110      $11,573      100% 77      Botswana      $17,024      $7,894      100% 78      Iraq      $16,935      $5,114      99% 79      China      $16,842      $8,612      98% 80      Maldives      $16,688      $9,802      98% 81      Dominican Republic      $16,064      $7,223      94% https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/ The Chinese will get old, not rich. Also, it will be first gay military power since Sparta: there is a severe gender imbalance in the country - last year, there were 34.9 million more males than females. This is a hangover of the country's strict one-child policy, which was introduced in 1979 to slow population growth. BBC headline: China: The men who are single and the women who don't want kids

Too true, dear boy. Wake me up when Botswana breed a billion people and corner global manufacturing, okay?

Would you like us to freeze your sperm while we still can?

Oh, sorry, you can't sign consent. You're dead.

Silly old us, no?

Karnal wrote on Mar 27^th, 2022 at 1:11am:

Frank wrote on Mar 26th, 2022 at 8:50pm: Karnal wrote on Mar 26th, 2022 at 4:13pm: Frank wrote on Mar 24th, 2022 at 5:46pm: Karnal wrote on Mar 21st, 2022 at 9:37pm: Frank wrote on Mar 21st, 2022 at 8:39pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21st, 2022 at 1:59pm: Frank wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 9:26pm: China is fccd, its days in the sun  are over. An international pariah for the next few decades.   China is debating MMT ... as is the West; watch out if  the PBofC  finally wakes up to the power at its fingertips...(it's all about resources, not money). China, Russia are fccd. Nobody will stand for moronic dictators like them any more. Treating thugs nicely is over. China's free ride is over. Oh-er, China's poised to become the number one economy, old boy. Over? China is about to begin. No country can isolate China as they've done with Russia. It's too important to global supply chains. Even a bot can see this, dear. You? Japan was poised to be the number one economy in the 1990s. China is being detached from the West strategically. Dependence on China is scaled back. Trust in China is SEVERELY scaled back. It's support for Russia will only accelerate all that. China will have to make its own people richer and rely less on exporting to the West under false promises it made when it was allowed into the WTO. And when the Chinese are richer they will boot the CCP. There is no long term future for communist dictatorships just as there isn't for fascist ones. Japan was never poised for long, old boy. It doesn't have the population. If you're making the claim that China will NOT overtake America's GDP in the next decade, you're perhaps the only person in the world to do so. But that's okay. China WILL become number one, as every schoolboy knows. Year 9 maths, innit. China has proven that there is indeed a future for communist dictatorships whether we like this or not. So unfair, no? China is poorer PER CAPITA than Costa Rica or Botswana. 75      Azerbaijan      $17,450      $4,139      102% 76      Costa Rica      $17,110      $11,573      100% 77      Botswana      $17,024      $7,894      100% 78      Iraq      $16,935      $5,114      99% 79      China      $16,842      $8,612      98% 80      Maldives      $16,688      $9,802      98% 81      Dominican Republic      $16,064      $7,223      94% https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/ The Chinese will get old, not rich. Also, it will be first gay military power since Sparta: there is a severe gender imbalance in the country - last year, there were 34.9 million more males than females. This is a hangover of the country's strict one-child policy, which was introduced in 1979 to slow population growth. BBC headline: China: The men who are single and the women who don't want kids Too true, dear boy. Wake me up when Botswana breed a billion people and corner global manufacturing, okay? Would you like us to freeze your sperm while we still can? Oh, sorry, you can't sign consent. You're dead. Silly old us, no?

That "cornering" by China was, in reality, a Western transfer of manufacturing which is now being walked back slowly and steadily.

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 25^th, 2022 at 3:13pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 24th, 2022 at 5:46pm: Japan was poised to be the number one economy in the 1990s. Yes, and what happened? Some say external forces as well as internal mistakes prevented Japan from overtaking the US.  But in any case Japan is only 100 million people. Quote: China is being detached from the West strategically. Dependence on China is scaled back. Trust in China is SEVERELY scaled back. It's support for Russia will only accelerate all that. Certainly the US - desperate to maintain global hegemony - is spreading the "China threat" theory.... [quote]China will have to make its own people richer and rely less on exporting to the West under false promises it made when it was allowed into the WTO.

False promises? [note: the WTO itself has been incapacitated by Trump who refused to allow timely elections in the WTO bureaucracy).


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And when the Chinese are richer they will boot the CCP.

How much richer? When China is the double the US economy? Why would they boot the CCP?


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There is no long term future for communist dictatorships just as there isn't for fascist ones.

Correct; but a consensus meritocracy is neither of those.

Karnal wrote on Mar 26^th, 2022 at 4:39pm:

Actually, Great, until you came here I questioned the China "threat" theory myself. Alas, you've made China's ambitions all too clear.

That only proves your blind 'sovereign individual rights' ideology renders you incapable of correctly reading a sentence.   


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You and Athos have both expressed your desire for Chinese military domination. You both expect China to assert itself upon the rest of us at some point.

No I expect the Chinese economy will be double the US before mid-century.  China COULD dominate the world militarily, but I expect China has no interest in US-style  global hegemony...and  international law would save China from an insane nuclear arms race.


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You've also made it clear that you have a beef with countries whose citizens vote.

I have a beef with the assumption that 'the right to rule' (an absurd proposition in itself, since rights don't exist, only Constitutional Law exists) can only be determined by ONE method.


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I would have thought there'd be more subtlety in our discussions here, but no.

I would have thought distinguishing between rule by elected adversarial  parties, and consensus meritocracies,  was subtle enough, 


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You genuinely see the world in terms of vetocracies and autocraticies - hence your support for Russia.

No I don't support Russia, whose democracy-autocracy is a failure.  I support China whose benevolent authority-meritocracy is producing remarkable outcomes for the people. (Russia's GDP has been going backwards since the GFC, China's GDP  has doubled).


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Until you confirmed this view in your own posts, I never would have seen this. Without you, I'd be hosing down talk of  Chinese military expansion and domination. Unfortunately, you've confirmed it.

Explained above; you assumed I am a member of the CCP, which has distorted your thinking on the debate re China versus the West.   


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We don't have genuine democracy in Australia, but Australians do hold the ideal of democracy to be self evident, just from different angles. You don't value it at all.

I despise the chronic, evasive and generational poverty entrenched in the neoliberal democracies.

[Actually, if Philip Lowe would utilize the currency-issuing capacity of the Oz federal government to eliminate poverty, you might win me over, because in that case elections would be a contest between differing views on how to best mobilize the nation's resources, rather than getting bogged down in useless disputes over money, debt and deficits].


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More, you're quite happy to support autocracies just for being autocratic, as you do with Putin, who has no socialist sympathies whatsoever.

Well at least these debates do allow for clarification of one's views, as outlined above.


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You're quite comfortable for your party to ally with dictators in the struggle against Western liberal democracy.

Xi is not a dictator, and Xi is willing to let you have your liberal democracies. It's the US that can't stomach the idea of China replacing US global hegemony.   


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Therein lies a great divide, dear.

No, the divide is between

1. government based on delusional 'sovereign individual rights', and 'benevolent authority'.

2. The unyielding grip of private financiers on the ability to create money, and banning currency-issuing governments the same ability/privilege.   

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21^st, 2022 at 2:08pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 5:04pm: Can you explain how, if poverty is entrenched in the west, but not in China, our unemployed get paid more than twice as much as the median Chinese wage? Western countries were already wealthy when the USSR collapsed, yet poverty was and is entrenched. Whereas 90% of Chinese were living in absolute poverty at that time;  and now 400 million Chinese are in the middle class, and absolute poverty has been eradicated. It's recognized the world over as an "economic miracle'.    Quote: And most western countries have more equal distribution of wealth than China? Yet the lowest decile in China has advanced in the last 30 years more than the lowest decile in the US, over the same time.  [quote]Whose definition is this?

The neoliberal definition: NAIRU = non-accelerating inflation rate of unemployment.

It's false neoliberal narrative. Inflation need not be contained by unemployment.
[/quote]

You are still missing the point. How can poverty have been erased in China, but remain entrenched in the west, if we are wealthier on average than the Chinese (by a huge margin) and have a more equal distribution of wealth? Do you realise that you make no sense?

Yes we know the CCP literally starved millions of Chinese to death not long ago, but you are not comparing China today with China in the past. You are comparing China with the west. Chinese people are not richer than westerners by virtue of being richer than their parents.

China invaded two countries, China is mistreating its muslim subjects, china laid claim to and fortified islands thousands of kilometres from its coastline.

China too wants to build an ethnically cleansed empire.

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China has proven that there is indeed a future for communist dictatorships whether we like this or not.

Sure. But only the capitalist ones.

freediver wrote on Mar 27^th, 2022 at 2:08pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 21st, 2022 at 2:08pm: You are still missing the point. How can poverty have been erased in China, but remain entrenched in the west, if we are wealthier on average than the Chinese (by a huge margin) and have a more equal distribution of wealth? Do you realise that you make no sense? I explained it before, but you apparently missed it (at best, could be other reasons), so I'll take it step by step this time: 1. c. 1 billion people (ie c.99% of the entire population) living in absolute poverty in 1990 in China. 2. c. 10% of the entire population living in relative poverty** in the US and OZ, in 1990. (**relative poverty takes account of different costs  of living in different nations). 3. Fast forward 30 years: In China, absolute poverty eradicated, and 50-60% living in relative poverty; with a middle class of 400 million people, and expanding fast.  4. In the US and Oz, not much change from 1990. ie no improvement in the relative poverty figures; and  indeed the middle class is being squeezed eg in the US, half the population are now living pay check to pay check whereas 30 years ago the the middle class was a large majority of the population.    Quote: Yes we know the CCP literally starved millions of Chinese to death not long ago, 60 years ago in fact.... [quote]but you are not comparing China today with China in the past.

Of course not, rapid increases in living standards in China only began after the Deng opening up of the economy, about 3 decades ago.  


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Of course not, now thtYou are comparing China with the west. Chinese people are not richer than westerners by virtue of being richer than their parents.

I am comparing Chinese rates of poverty eradication compared with the West's rates of poverty eradication, highlighted above.

So you actually think that poverty does not exist in China, but is entrenched in the west, despite the west being far richer overall, with more equal wealth distribution, and our unemployed people getting paid more than twice as much as the median Chinese wage?

And you think this is true because the CCP does not kill it's own citizens on the same scale it used to?

Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 27^th, 2022 at 2:09pm:

China invaded two countries,

No it didn't, it restored sovereignty established during the Qing dynasty.


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China is mistreating its muslim subjects,

No,  it is dealing with separatist Muslim terrorists in Xinjiang. Non-fundamentalist Muslims  are fine in China. 


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china laid claim to and fortified islands thousands of kilometres from its coastline

.

That's because the US has military bases on Okinawa and Guam, which are much closer to China than the US.


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China too wants to build an ethnically cleansed empire.

Nonsense. China celebrates its multi-ethnicity, in the various autonomous regions of China. 

freediver wrote on Mar 27^th, 2022 at 4:22pm:

So you actually think that poverty does not exist in China, but is entrenched in the west, despite the west being far richer overall, with more equal wealth distribution, and our unemployed people getting paid more than twice as much as the median Chinese wage?

Now you have confirmed you are not intelligent enough  to understand absolute and relative poverty in different nations, and the rate of change in these parameters, in different nations, as explained in post #105.

By the way, inequality is more extreme in the US than China.


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And you think this is true because the CCP does not kill it's own citizens on the same scale it used to?

No that's not what I think.

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By the way, inequality is more extreme in the US than China.

The US is not the west. All western countries are richer than China, by a huge margin. Nearly all of them also have far more equal wealth distribution. The US is one of the few exceptions.


Quote:

Now you have confirmed you are not intelligent enough  to understand absolute and relative poverty in different nations, and the rate of change in these parameters, in different nations.

I understand you are comparing the west and China by applying completely different standards to each, and by comparing China to China.

By your logic, a country where most people live off 10 grains of rice a day that manages to increase that number to 20 is doing better than Australia, because the rate of increase matters more than whether you actually live in poverty. Improving living standards is pretty easy when your predecessors were literally starving millions Chinese people to death, but I cannot see why you think all those corpses make China compare favourably to the west, when it is still so far behind.

How can poverty be entrenched in Australia but not China, when our unemployed get paid more than twice the median Chinese wage?

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 27^th, 2022 at 4:24pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 27th, 2022 at 2:09pm: China invaded two countries, No it didn't, it restored sovereignty established during the Qing dynasty.

The Qing were the Manchus - an ethnic minority to the sea of Han Chinese.

Point?

Imperial, not 'Han = Chinese'.  China is an empire, not a country, Currently ruled by the Maoist CCP Dynasty.

Frank wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2022 at 9:26pm:

China is fccd, its days in the sun  are over. An international pariah for the next few decades.

Australian universities have been urged to find new international student markets and diversify away from China, after a damning parliamentary report found Beijing was “by far the largest culprit of foreign interference” on local campuses.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/politics/universities-warned-on-student-intake-and-chinameddling/news-story/068fe25548d10171ba923ca5e52ce97e

China has been lying and cheating for decades, in every field of interaction with the West. This is now recognised and is being countered. The tenor of the relationship has radically altered in the last few years.
Hong Kong, South China Sea bullying and militarisation, Covid lies and bullying, now support for Russia and foothold in the Solomons, foreign interference in politics, education, industrial espionage across the Western world etc, etc.

China has turned itself into the Soviet Union of our times,  as the principal adversary of the West.

freediver wrote on Mar 27^th, 2022 at 4:39pm:

How can poverty be entrenched in Australia but not China, when our unemployed get paid more than twice the median Chinese wage?

Because as I explained, poverty in Australia, as defined by Henderson for example, has remained entrenched and unchanging over the last 3 decades, at about 10% of the population.

"The poverty lines are based on a benchmark income of $62.70 per week for the December quarter 1973 established by the Henderson poverty inquiry. The benchmark income was the disposable income required to support the basic needs of a family of two adults and two dependent children".

Whereas absolute poverty in China has been 100% eradicated, and relative poverty  as measured by comparative standards to the Henderson inquiry has reduced by 50%, which represents an advance in poverty eradication over the West.

Frank wrote on Mar 28^th, 2022 at 9:41am:

Australian universities have been urged to find new international student markets and diversify away from China, after a damning parliamentary report found Beijing was “by far the largest culprit of foreign interference” on local campuses. https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/politics/universities-warned-on-student-intake-and-chinameddling/news-story/068fe25548d10171ba923ca5e52ce97e China has been lying and cheating for decades, in every field of interaction with the West.

Funny that no-one cared, when China was a minnow.

Anyway it would be smart for Oz to work out out to fund its own universities.



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This is now recognised and is being countered. The tenor of the relationship has radically altered in the last few years.

Only because China's  success has it on course to overtaking the US within a decade.


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Hong Kong, South China Sea bullying and militarisation,

 

HK is part of China, SCS defence is required to counter US militarization in Guam and Okinawa and Taiwan.


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Covid lies and bullying,

Started in Wuhan wet market, what lies? And as for "bullying", Oz initiated the banning of China's first world-leading IT company.  Talk about bullying.


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now support for Russia

Xi and Putin signed a trade (not military) agreement.


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and foothold in the Solomons,

Oz failed to assist building of sufficient security forces in the Solomons


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in  foreign interference in politics, education, industrial espionage across the Western world etc, etc.

No, that's only your paranoid, delusional 'sovereign individuals rights' ideology talking. 


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China has turned itself into the Soviet Union of our times,  as the principal adversary of the West.

Certainly the world needs an alternative to the disaster of government based on delusional 'sovereign individual rights' ideology.

Frank wrote on Mar 27^th, 2022 at 5:54pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 27th, 2022 at 4:24pm: Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 27th, 2022 at 2:09pm: China invaded two countries, No it didn't, it restored sovereignty established during the Qing dynasty.   The Qing were the Manchus - an ethnic minority to the sea of Han Chinese. Point?

That China lost sovereignty over Tibet and Xinjiang (and HK and Taiwan)  during the century of humiliation.  The CCP  reasserts that sovereignty. 


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Imperial, not 'Han = Chinese'.  China is an empire, not a country, Currently ruled by the Maoist CCP Dynasty.

Just as the US is an empire;

"A border skirmish along the Rio Grande started off the fighting and was followed by a series of U.S. victories. When the dust cleared, Mexico had lost about one-third of its territory, including nearly all of present-day California, Utah, Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico".

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 28^th, 2022 at 11:41am:

freediver wrote on Mar 27th, 2022 at 4:39pm: How can poverty be entrenched in Australia but not China, when our unemployed get paid more than twice the median Chinese wage? Because as I explained, poverty in Australia, as defined by Henderson for example, has remained entrenched and unchanging over the last 3 decades, at about 10% of the population. "The poverty lines are based on a benchmark income of $62.70 per week for the December quarter 1973 established by the Henderson poverty inquiry. The benchmark income was the disposable income required to support the basic needs of a family of two adults and two dependent children". Whereas absolute poverty in China has been 100% eradicated, and relative poverty  as measured by comparative standards to the Henderson inquiry has reduced by 50%, which represents an advance in poverty eradication over the West.

You are so full of crap your eyes are brown.

https://melbourneinstitute.unimelb.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/3526877/Poverty-Lines-Australia-June-2020.pdf


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Updating poverty lines according to changes in per capita household disposable income means that the poverty lines are relative measures of poverty. As real incomes in the community rise, so too will the poverty lines.

freediver wrote on Mar 28^th, 2022 at 7:23pm:

"Updating poverty lines according to changes in per capita household disposable income means that the poverty lines are relative measures of poverty. As real incomes in the community rise, so too will the poverty lines".

Exactly, same as in China, where the reductions in poverty and relative poverty are  happening at a faster rate than in Oz.

Meanwhile, from prof. John Buchanan on radio today: Living standards in Oz will fall in coming years, because increasing casualization and underemployment   of the workforce mean wages growth  will continue to lag inflation in Oz's predominantly resourced-based economy.   

You lied. I said you are full of crap. And you took that to mean we agree?

Have you ever been outside of China?

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2022 at 8:06pm:

You lied. I said you are full of crap. And you took that to mean we agree? Have you ever been outside of China?

Please gentlemen consider the facts.
Thank you

15 Facts About The Financial Condition Of American Families That Will Blow Your Mind

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkHOgqb1BNY

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 29^th, 2022 at 11:51am:

freediver wrote on Mar 28th, 2022 at 7:23pm: "Updating poverty lines according to changes in per capita household disposable income means that the poverty lines are relative measures of poverty. As real incomes in the community rise, so too will the poverty lines". Exactly, same as in China, where the reductions in poverty and relative poverty are  happening at a faster rate than in Oz. Meanwhile, from prof. John Buchanan on radio today: Living standards in Oz will fall in coming years, because increasing casualization and underemployment   of the workforce mean wages growth  will continue to lag inflation in Oz's predominantly resourced-based economy.

Australia encourages urgent de-Anglonization (de-Pomization) and denazification, otherwise this British colony will face major economic and political problems.
:)

athos wrote on Mar 30^th, 2022 at 6:03pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 29th, 2022 at 8:06pm: You lied. I said you are full of crap. And you took that to mean we agree? Have you ever been outside of China? Please gentlemen consider the facts. Thank you 15 Facts About The Financial Condition Of American Families That Will Blow Your Mind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkHOgqb1BNY

Have you ever been outside of China?

freediver wrote on Mar 30^th, 2022 at 6:27pm:

athos wrote on Mar 30th, 2022 at 6:03pm: freediver wrote on Mar 29th, 2022 at 8:06pm: You lied. I said you are full of crap. And you took that to mean we agree? Have you ever been outside of China? Please gentlemen consider the facts. Thank you 15 Facts About The Financial Condition Of American Families That Will Blow Your Mind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkHOgqb1BNY Have you ever been outside of China?

It's-a-bot-or-Athos-is-in-a-Chinese-prison.-
Prisoners-get-privileges-or-time-off-for-trolling-
social-media-as-an-otherwise-unpaid-wumao-or-little-pink.-

freediver wrote on Mar 30^th, 2022 at 6:27pm:

athos wrote on Mar 30th, 2022 at 6:03pm: freediver wrote on Mar 29th, 2022 at 8:06pm: You lied. I said you are full of crap. And you took that to mean we agree? Have you ever been outside of China? Please gentlemen consider the facts. Thank you 15 Facts About The Financial Condition Of American Families That Will Blow Your Mind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkHOgqb1BNY Have you ever been outside of China?

Of course, I have been to many more countries than you can imagine.
:)

I cannot imagine you being to more than one, so that is not hard.

Do you get paid to post here?

freediver wrote on Mar 31^st, 2022 at 6:12pm:

Do you get paid to post here?

It-gets-an-upgrade-to-its-software-
Or-an-extra-packet-of-2-minute-noodles-in-prison-rations.-

freediver wrote on Mar 31^st, 2022 at 6:12pm:

I cannot imagine you being to more than one, so that is not hard. Do you get paid to post here?

nonsense???
:)

athos wrote on Mar 30^th, 2022 at 6:09pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 29th, 2022 at 11:51am: freediver wrote on Mar 28th, 2022 at 7:23pm: "Updating poverty lines according to changes in per capita household disposable income means that the poverty lines are relative measures of poverty. As real incomes in the community rise, so too will the poverty lines". Exactly, same as in China, where the reductions in poverty and relative poverty are  happening at a faster rate than in Oz. Meanwhile, from prof. John Buchanan on radio today: Living standards in Oz will fall in coming years, because increasing casualization and underemployment   of the workforce mean wages growth  will continue to lag inflation in Oz's predominantly resourced-based economy. Australia encourages urgent de-Anglonization (de-Pomization) and denazification, otherwise this British colony will face major economic and political problems. :)

Well that proves it.  You’re not a piece of badly written software, you’re an actual complete idiot.

Ayn Marx wrote on Mar 31^st, 2022 at 6:55pm:

athos wrote on Mar 30th, 2022 at 6:09pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 29th, 2022 at 11:51am: freediver wrote on Mar 28th, 2022 at 7:23pm: "Updating poverty lines according to changes in per capita household disposable income means that the poverty lines are relative measures of poverty. As real incomes in the community rise, so too will the poverty lines". Exactly, same as in China, where the reductions in poverty and relative poverty are  happening at a faster rate than in Oz. Meanwhile, from prof. John Buchanan on radio today: Living standards in Oz will fall in coming years, because increasing casualization and underemployment   of the workforce mean wages growth  will continue to lag inflation in Oz's predominantly resourced-based economy. Australia encourages urgent de-Anglonization (de-Pomization) and denazification, otherwise this British colony will face major economic and political problems. :) Well that proves it.  You’re not a piece of badly written software, you’re an actual complete idiot.

Please be civilized and restrain from personal insults.
Otherwise you'll be de-Pomenized and de-Nazified.
Thank you
:)

athos wrote on Mar 31^st, 2022 at 6:59pm:

Well that proves it.  You’re not a piece of badly written software, you’re an actual complete idiot.

Please be civilized and restrain from personal insults.
Otherwise you'll be de-Pomenized and de-Nazified.
Thank you
:)
[/quote]

Something you may care to try your hand at one of these days  - - logic ?

athos wrote on Mar 31^st, 2022 at 6:59pm:

Ayn Marx wrote on Mar 31st, 2022 at 6:55pm: athos wrote on Mar 30th, 2022 at 6:09pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 29th, 2022 at 11:51am: freediver wrote on Mar 28th, 2022 at 7:23pm: "Updating poverty lines according to changes in per capita household disposable income means that the poverty lines are relative measures of poverty. As real incomes in the community rise, so too will the poverty lines". Exactly, same as in China, where the reductions in poverty and relative poverty are  happening at a faster rate than in Oz. Meanwhile, from prof. John Buchanan on radio today: Living standards in Oz will fall in coming years, because increasing casualization and underemployment   of the workforce mean wages growth  will continue to lag inflation in Oz's predominantly resourced-based economy. Australia encourages urgent de-Anglonization (de-Pomization) and denazification, otherwise this British colony will face major economic and political problems. :) Well that proves it.  You’re not a piece of badly written software, you’re an actual complete idiot. Please be civilized and restrain from personal insults. Otherwise you'll be de-Pomenized and de-Nazified. Thank you :)

Watch-it-with-the-hypocrisy-
Or-'the-ox'-will-hand-you-an-extra-saveloy-in the-showers-tonight.-

athos wrote on Mar 31^st, 2022 at 6:54pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 31st, 2022 at 6:12pm: I cannot imagine you being to more than one, so that is not hard. Do you get paid to post here? nonsense??? :)

Yes it is. Do you get paid for it?

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2022 at 8:06pm:

You lied. I said you are full of crap. And you took that to mean we agree?

You wrote: "Updating poverty lines according to changes in per capita household disposable income means that the poverty lines are relative measures of poverty. As real incomes in the community rise, so too will the poverty lines".

I merely pointed out that that paragraph applies equally to China,  which is not the same as saying we agree.

And I continue to assert  China is eradicating relative poverty, as measured in your article,  at a faster rate than Oz, because per capita income is rising faster in China than Oz.

From 1990 to 2020: change in GDP per capita

China ....times 10.  ($1000 to $10,000)

Australia......less than 3 times   ($18,000 to $51,000)

Australia:

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AUS/australia/gdp-per-capita

China

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/CHN/china/gdp-per-capita


Quote:

Have you ever been outside of China?

Yes.

How can you say with a straight face that poverty is entrenched in the west and eradicated in China, when our unemployed get paid more than twice the median wage in China?

freediver wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2022 at 3:43pm:

How can you say with a straight face that poverty is entrenched in the west and eradicated in China, when our unemployed get paid more than twice the median wage in China?

Because relative poverty is entrenched in Oz, eg 1 in 6 kids still living in (relative) poverty in Oz, even though per capita income has tripled since 1990 (when Hawkey famously remarked about child poverty in Oz). Inequality has remained more or less stable.

Whereas relative poverty in China has decreased, as per capita incomes have risen 10 times as shown in the chart, and inequality has trended down since 2004.   

Quote:

Because relative poverty is entrenched in Oz

;D

You still don't understand what the term means, do you?


Quote:

Inequality has remained more or less stable

Correct. And it is rapidly getting worse in China. Already far worse than Australia.

freediver wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2022 at 6:11pm:

You still don't understand what the term means, do you?

It means kids are relying on charities to be able to be fed, clothed and go to school; and adults have to choose between paying the electricity bill or missing a meal.


Quote:

Inequality has remained more or less stable

Exactly, whereas China's inequality is reducing as its per capita income rises.


Quote:

Correct. And it is rapidly getting worse in China. Already far worse than Australia.

I showed you the charts: GDP per capita is rising 3 times faster in China than Oz; inequality is trending downwards in China while it's stable in Oz; and relative poverty is stable at around 10% in Oz, and reducing in China.   

Quote:

It means kids are relying on charities to be able to be fed, clothed and go to school; and adults have to choose between paying the electricity bill or missing a meal.

That is not what it means. Stop telling lies. By itself, it tells you absolutely nothing about what people can afford.


Quote:

Exactly, whereas China's inequality is reducing as its per capita income rises.

You quoted yourself here.


Quote:

I showed you the charts

I don't recall you posting any charts about income inequality. Are you suggesting inequality was even worse than it is now when the CCP was starving millions of Chinese people to death with unequal food distribution?

If you posted a chart showing Australia's and China's per capita absolute GDP, you would struggle to even see China's. Even our unemployed get paid more than double the median Chinese wage.

freediver wrote on Apr 4^th, 2022 at 4:24pm:

Are you suggesting inequality was even worse than it is now when the CCP was starving millions of Chinese people to death with unequal food distribution?

You mean like what the CCP is currently doing in Shanghai this week?

Starving people to death; unable to manage equal food distribution to an entire city of 25 million who've been imprisoned in their homes or quarantine hellholes?

And the world thought Mao had died!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuzlraPi0jk

:D