Why don’t we remember the victims of communism?

Presented by Douglas Murray and produced by Sean Glynn – and which you can listen to, via Soundcloud, below –  examines our failure to remember the victims of communism, in the way that we, rightly, remember the victims of Nazi-ism.

Talking to a wide range of people including David Aaronovitch, Anne Applebaum, Janos Horvath, David Pryce Jones and Giles Udy, Douglas explores why the communist ideology that killed many more people than Nazi Germany – and in many more parts of the world, from Russia to China and to Cambodia – is so poorly remembered in art, education or in public monuments and museums. He begins by noting that young people in Britain might overwhelmingly and correctly identify Adolf Hitler as a source of evil. Most, tragically, don’t even know who Lenin or Mao or Pol Pot are.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/douglas-murray-victims-communism/

If you split the deaths caused by communism into deliberate extermination and death due to failure of the state to provide the basic services that communism intends them to (eg the Great Chinese Famine), which would be greater?

Frank wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 4:39pm:

Why don’t we remember the victims of communism? Presented by Douglas Murray and produced by Sean Glynn – and which you can listen to, via Soundcloud, below –  examines our failure to remember the victims of communism, in the way that we, rightly, remember the victims of Nazi-ism. Talking to a wide range of people including David Aaronovitch, Anne Applebaum, Janos Horvath, David Pryce Jones and Giles Udy, Douglas explores why the communist ideology that killed many more people than Nazi Germany – and in many more parts of the world, from Russia to China and to Cambodia – is so poorly remembered in art, education or in public monuments and museums. He begins by noting that young people in Britain might overwhelmingly and correctly identify Adolf Hitler as a source of evil. Most, tragically, don’t even know who Lenin or Mao or Pol Pot are. https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/douglas-murray-victims-communism/

Why don't we remember the victims of capitalism????

"the communist ideology that killed many more people than Nazi Germany"

HAHAHAA!! Let's pretend this is true.  One reason is no one was killed for their religion or sexuality

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 4:42pm:

If you split the deaths caused by communism into deliberate extermination and death due to failure of the state to provide the basic services that communism intends them to (eg the Great Chinese Famine), which would be greater?

The deaths from capitalism are all the latter

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 4:43pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 4:39pm: Why don’t we remember the victims of communism? Presented by Douglas Murray and produced by Sean Glynn – and which you can listen to, via Soundcloud, below –  examines our failure to remember the victims of communism, in the way that we, rightly, remember the victims of Nazi-ism. Talking to a wide range of people including David Aaronovitch, Anne Applebaum, Janos Horvath, David Pryce Jones and Giles Udy, Douglas explores why the communist ideology that killed many more people than Nazi Germany – and in many more parts of the world, from Russia to China and to Cambodia – is so poorly remembered in art, education or in public monuments and museums. He begins by noting that young people in Britain might overwhelmingly and correctly identify Adolf Hitler as a source of evil. Most, tragically, don’t even know who Lenin or Mao or Pol Pot are. https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/douglas-murray-victims-communism/ Why don't we remember the victims of capitalism???? "the communist ideology that killed many more people than Nazi Germany" HAHAHAA!! Let's pretend this is true.  One reason is no one was killed for their religion or sexuality

Why are communist stooges so full of crap?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union


Quote:

The Communist Party destroyed churches, synagogues,[5] and mosques, ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with anti-religious teachings, and it introduced a belief system called "scientific atheism," with its own rituals, promises and proselytizers.[6][7] According to some sources, the total number of Christian victims under the Soviet regime has been estimated to range around 12 to 20 million.[8][9] At least 106,300 Russian clergymen were executed between 1937 and 1941. Soviet Marxist-Leninist policy consistently advocated the control, suppression, and ultimately, the elimination of religious beliefs, and it actively encouraged the propagation of Marxist-Leninist atheism in the Soviet Union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_and_LGBT_rights


Quote:

During World War II, some Yugoslav Partisans issued several death sentences during the war against partisans whose homosexuality was revealed. The Encyclopedia of Homosexuality volume two is unequivocal on Marx and Engels view of homosexuality, stating: "There can be little doubt that, as far as they thought of the matter at all, Marx and Engels were personally homo-phobic In 1933, Article 121 was added to the entire Soviet Union criminal code, which made male homosexuality a crime punishable by up to five years in prison with hard labor. The law remained intact until after the dissolution of the Soviet Union; it was repealed in 1993. The Revolutionary Communist Party USA's previous policy that "struggle will be waged to eliminate [homosexuality] and reform homosexuals" was ended in 2001. Before the Cuban Revolution, Cuba had laws that criminalized homosexual men.

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 4:45pm:

Before the Cuban Revolution, Cuba had laws that criminalized homosexual men.

Read that out loud LOL!!!

Quote:

After the Revolution, the position regarding homosexuality continued to be negative, and some LGBT people chose to emigrate,[70][71] since homosexuality was linked to US imperialism.

You missed the important question - why are communist stooges so full of crap? And where did you get this idiotic notion from that communists did not kill people for their religion or sexuality? Is your reading so selective that you still think it is true?

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:02pm:

Quote: After the Revolution, the position regarding homosexuality continued to be negative, and some LGBT people chose to emigrate,[70][71] since homosexuality was linked to US imperialism. You missed the important question - why are communist stooges so full of crap? And where did you get this idiotic notion from that communists did not kill people for their religion or sexuality?

Honeslty, when I see your name, I disengage.

I know the right lie about Che killing gays, for example. There's a lot of right wing propaganda.  I don't care.  I'm not a mad Stalin fan.  I'm not even a communist.  I am just pointing out you are a liar

You lied about communists not killing people for their religion or sexuality. Why would you do that if you do not even like communism? Why are communist stooges so full of crap?

What do you think I lied about?

Try thinking before responding. Or at the very least, assuming we are not gullible enough to believe your lies. Who do you think killed more people because of their religion - Nazis or Communists?

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:07pm:

You lied about communists not killing people for their religion or sexuality What do you think I lied about? Try thinking before responding. Or at the very least, assuming we are not gullible enough to believe your lies. Who do you think killed more people because of their religion - Nazis or Communists?

Nazis, duh. 

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:07pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:07pm: You lied about communists not killing people for their religion or sexuality What do you think I lied about? Try thinking before responding. Or at the very least, assuming we are not gullible enough to believe your lies. Who do you think killed more people because of their religion - Nazis or Communists? Nazis, duh.

How many did they kill?

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:08pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:07pm: freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:07pm: You lied about communists not killing people for their religion or sexuality What do you think I lied about? Try thinking before responding. Or at the very least, assuming we are not gullible enough to believe your lies. Who do you think killed more people because of their religion - Nazis or Communists? Nazis, duh.  How many did they kill?

I am bored of you already.  Google the holocaust if you don't know

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 4:42pm:

If you split the deaths caused by communism into deliberate extermination and death due to failure of the state to provide the basic services that communism intends them to (eg the Great Chinese Famine), which would be greater?

I don't thinks the Russian and Chinese famines were "failures to provide". They were engineered, in the Soviet Ukrainian case, to force collectivisation.
https://www.britannica.com/event/Holodomor#ref1264568
The Chinese famines were also engineered by the communist leadership, they called it the great leap forward (another glaring and sad example of communist double speak, as Orwell nailed it).

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:08pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:08pm: FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:07pm: freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:07pm: You lied about communists not killing people for their religion or sexuality What do you think I lied about? Try thinking before responding. Or at the very least, assuming we are not gullible enough to believe your lies. Who do you think killed more people because of their religion - Nazis or Communists? Nazis, duh.  How many did they kill? I am bored of you already.  Google the holocaust if you don't know

I know. I am just trying to figure out why you are so full of crap. Google cannot tell me that.

How many people do you think the Nazis killed because of their religion?

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:10pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:08pm: freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:08pm: FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:07pm: freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:07pm: You lied about communists not killing people for their religion or sexuality What do you think I lied about? Try thinking before responding. Or at the very least, assuming we are not gullible enough to believe your lies. Who do you think killed more people because of their religion - Nazis or Communists? Nazis, duh.  How many did they kill? I am bored of you already.  Google the holocaust if you don't know I know. I am just trying to figure out why you are so full of crap. Google cannot tell me that. How many people do you think the Nazis killed because of their religion?

No one has ever studied the holocaust.  OK boomer

Frank wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:09pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 4:42pm: If you split the deaths caused by communism into deliberate extermination and death due to failure of the state to provide the basic services that communism intends them to (eg the Great Chinese Famine), which would be greater? I don't thinks the Russian and Chinese famines were "failures to provide". They were engineered, in the Soviet Ukrainian case, to force collectivisation. https://www.britannica.com/event/Holodomor#ref1264568 The Chinese famines were also engineered by the communist leadership, they called it the great leap forward (another glaring and sad example of communist double speak, as Orwell nailed it).

Orwell was a socialist

Frank wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:09pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 4:42pm: If you split the deaths caused by communism into deliberate extermination and death due to failure of the state to provide the basic services that communism intends them to (eg the Great Chinese Famine), which would be greater? I don't thinks the Russian and Chinese famines were "failures to provide". They were engineered, in the Soviet Ukrainian case, to force collectivisation. https://www.britannica.com/event/Holodomor#ref1264568 The Chinese famines were also engineered by the communist leadership, they called it the great leap forward (another glaring and sad example of communist double speak, as Orwell nailed it).

They were the result of collectivism. I do not think it was intentional. The CCP was just extraordinarily incompetent at carrying out what was basically their core mission.

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:11pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:10pm: FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:08pm: freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:08pm: FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:07pm: freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:07pm: You lied about communists not killing people for their religion or sexuality What do you think I lied about? Try thinking before responding. Or at the very least, assuming we are not gullible enough to believe your lies. Who do you think killed more people because of their religion - Nazis or Communists? Nazis, duh.  How many did they kill? I am bored of you already.  Google the holocaust if you don't know I know. I am just trying to figure out why you are so full of crap. Google cannot tell me that. How many people do you think the Nazis killed because of their religion? No one has ever studied the holocaust.  OK boomer

You obviously haven't. Why are you so full of crap? Where do you get it all from?

How many people do you think the Nazis killed because of their religion?

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:13pm:

\ You obviously haven't. Why are you so full of crap? Where do you get it all from? How many people do you think the Nazis killed because of their religion?

Again proving you don't care about facts, you want to badger me for having morals

I have at least 20 books on Nazi germany and the holocaust in my library,  Probably more

Quote:

Again proving you don't care about facts, you want to badger me for having morals

Every time we manage to get you to make a statement of fact, it is an obvious lie. What do your morals tell you about being so full of crap?

How many people do you think the Nazis killed because of their religion? Hint: it has nothing to do with the weight of unread books in your imaginary library, or how much you dislike all the Nazis in your family. You may have gotten rid of the Nazis, but the fascists are still there.

Perhaps it is just not possible to promote communism and be honest at the same time.

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:12pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:09pm: freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 4:42pm: If you split the deaths caused by communism into deliberate extermination and death due to failure of the state to provide the basic services that communism intends them to (eg the Great Chinese Famine), which would be greater? I don't thinks the Russian and Chinese famines were "failures to provide". They were engineered, in the Soviet Ukrainian case, to force collectivisation. https://www.britannica.com/event/Holodomor#ref1264568 The Chinese famines were also engineered by the communist leadership, they called it the great leap forward (another glaring and sad example of communist double speak, as Orwell nailed it). They were the result of collectivism. I do not think it was intentional. The CCP was just extraordinarily incompetent at carrying out what was basically their core mission.

Well, ignoring that they were causing mass starvation and persisting despite it WAS intentional, not mere inattention or absent mindedness.

It is the inhumanity of totalitarian missions and projects.

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 4:42pm:

If you split the deaths caused by communism into deliberate extermination and death due to failure of the state to provide the basic services that communism intends them to (eg the Great Chinese Famine), which would be greater?

How does that compared when compared to the deaths, deliberate or otherwise, due to capitalism?  :D :D


Before you jump in with a dumb answer, take the time to think clearly.

I cannot think of anything attributable to capitalism that compares to what communists did through evil intent or incompetence. Feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong.

I think I know what is going on. Future joined Antifa because he felt ashamed of all the Nazis in his family. It was full of communists and Muslim sympathisers, so he instinctively sees them as a the good guys. He now rails against fascism, while reflexively supporting probably the two biggest groups of fascists in human history, oblivious to the sheer scale of suffering they have inflicted on their fellow man. He has a fetish for Nazis, but fascism runs in his blood, and he still cannot see it, no matter how patiently it is pointed out to him.

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:23pm:

I cannot think of anything attributable to capitalism that compares to what communists did through evil intent or incompetence. Feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong.

So weapons companies lobbying members of governments to go to war after war after war don't count?

People that dies in cars,trucks,planes and buses because someone tried to cut corners to increase profits don't count?

John Smith wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:53pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:23pm: I cannot think of anything attributable to capitalism that compares to what communists did through evil intent or incompetence. Feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong. So weapons companies lobbying members of governments to go to war after war after war don't count? People that dies in cars,trucks,planes and buses because someone tried to cut corners to increase profits don't count?

You are welcome to try to make a comparison on any basis you want John. Let's see how creative you can get with the numbers, shall we?

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 6:10pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:53pm: freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:23pm: I cannot think of anything attributable to capitalism that compares to what communists did through evil intent or incompetence. Feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong. So weapons companies lobbying members of governments to go to war after war after war don't count? People that dies in cars,trucks,planes and buses because someone tried to cut corners to increase profits don't count? You are welcome to try to make a comparison on any basis you want John. Let's see how creative you can get with the numbers, shall we?

I asked you two questions FD.   Are you afraid to answer?

My answer is, you cannot count.

But keep trying, that's what counts.

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:38pm:

I think I know what is going on. Future joined Antifa because he felt ashamed of all the Nazis in his family. It was full of communists and Muslim sympathisers, so he instinctively sees them as a the good guys. He now rails against fascism, while reflexively supporting probably the two biggest groups of fascists in human history, oblivious to the sheer scale of suffering they have inflicted on their fellow man. He has a fetish for Nazis, but fascism runs in his blood, and he still cannot see it, no matter how patiently it is pointed out to him.

I am not ashamed.  I have been aware from a young age.  I still await your instructions on how to join antifa.

bugger me the right are dense

The idea that things are passed in bloodlines is Nazism :)

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:23pm:

I cannot think of anything attributable to capitalism that compares to what communists did through evil intent or incompetence. Feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong.

I have, but you cannot read

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 6:12pm:

My answer is, you cannot count. But keep trying, that's what counts.

you try anything other than an answer ehh. What are you afraid off ?


by the way it was 2 questions so the only one who cannot count is you


Question ONE :So weapons companies lobbying members of governments to go to war after war after war don't count?

Question TWO : People that dies in cars,trucks,planes and buses because someone tried to cut corners to increase profits don't count?


lets see what sort of stupidity you'll use to try and avoid answering this time. ::)

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 6:14pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:38pm: I think I know what is going on. Future joined Antifa because he felt ashamed of all the Nazis in his family. It was full of communists and Muslim sympathisers, so he instinctively sees them as a the good guys. He now rails against fascism, while reflexively supporting probably the two biggest groups of fascists in human history, oblivious to the sheer scale of suffering they have inflicted on their fellow man. He has a fetish for Nazis, but fascism runs in his blood, and he still cannot see it, no matter how patiently it is pointed out to him. I am not ashamed.  I have been aware from a young age.  I still await your instructions on how to join antifa. bugger me the right are dense The idea that things are passed in bloodlines is Nazism :)

Why did you lie about communists not killing people for their religion or sexuality?

And where do you get your 'alternative facts' from?

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:38pm:

I think I know what is going on. Future joined Antifa because he felt ashamed of all the Nazis in his family. It was full of communists and Muslim sympathisers, so he instinctively sees them as a the good guys. He now rails against fascism, while reflexively supporting probably the two biggest groups of fascists in human history, oblivious to the sheer scale of suffering they have inflicted on their fellow man. He has a fetish for Nazis, but fascism runs in his blood, and he still cannot see it, no matter how patiently it is pointed out to him.

Jesus - that's bordering on the theme of an episode of my under-construction TV series..... with the exception that poor old Lefty is a politician...

"You know that what I did was for the best for all!"

**considers and relents* 

"Yes - i agree totally... you did it all for the best good...." 

**turns to door and hand on handle ... Lefty looks relieved**

"....... that's why we're only going to arrest you once..." 

**opens door to two waiting Feds.. they enter meaningfully... hero walks away down corridor**

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:11pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:10pm: FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:08pm: freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:08pm: FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:07pm: freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:07pm: You lied about communists not killing people for their religion or sexuality What do you think I lied about? Try thinking before responding. Or at the very least, assuming we are not gullible enough to believe your lies. Who do you think killed more people because of their religion - Nazis or Communists? Nazis, duh.  How many did they kill? I am bored of you already.  Google the holocaust if you don't know I know. I am just trying to figure out why you are so full of crap. Google cannot tell me that. How many people do you think the Nazis killed because of their religion? No one has ever studied the holocaust.  OK boomer

Elie Wiesel? Simon Wiesenthal?

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 6:14pm:

I have been aware from a young age.

So you're of German or Austrian ancestry, then? European Jewish descent?

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 7:46pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 6:14pm: I have been aware from a young age. So you're of German or Austrian ancestry, then? European Jewish descent?

His family were Nazis, or so he claims.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 7:46pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 6:14pm: I have been aware from a young age. So you're of German or Austrian ancestry, then? European Jewish descent?

You should answer him Future, race and ethnicity are really important to Nazis, they can't relate to you till you have been racially categorised.  Just trying to help.

Carry on ...

https://i.gifer.com/5gp.gif

How can someone rail against fascism, yet be so completely ignorant of it's biggest perpetrators?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes

Cubans did very well under Communism.
Better than Americans did under Capitalism.
;D

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 8:31pm:

How can someone rail against fascism, yet be so completely ignorant of it's biggest perpetrators?

Personal choice or serious mental problem.  Many babushkas still revere Stalin and rue his loss to Mother Russia

and-a Mama she say:-  "He just a good Russian boy!  He don' do nothing to nobody!  The West they pick on him always because he Russian!  Only he defend the people from Fascist!"

When you decide for yourself that you can call anyone a 'fascist' for any reason - it then becomes easy to dispose of them as enemies of the state and people, destroyers of the economy, and baby killers ....look at Lefty's posts - 'we' - thus far undefined but everybody - are 'killing kids' and 'have ruined the future for everyone' - reasons never given and in his mind not needed ..... he 'feels' it therefore it is.

That is why I hit on the reality - way back - that Lefty is totally insane, but sane enough to know what he is raving about - and therefore criminally liable.......... watch that space.

He is as liable as a Nazi leader who pushes genocide...... and should be locked up now before he causes anyone real harm.  He says often that he is mocking.... yep - just like Johnny Ringo here.. 'oh - I was only foolin'!":-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsJFrwLl6HU

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:11pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:09pm: freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 4:42pm: If you split the deaths caused by communism into deliberate extermination and death due to failure of the state to provide the basic services that communism intends them to (eg the Great Chinese Famine), which would be greater? I don't thinks the Russian and Chinese famines were "failures to provide". They were engineered, in the Soviet Ukrainian case, to force collectivisation. https://www.britannica.com/event/Holodomor#ref1264568 The Chinese famines were also engineered by the communist leadership, they called it the great leap forward (another glaring and sad example of communist double speak, as Orwell nailed it). Orwell was a socialist

Most of us are Orwellian style socialists.... that does not make us communists.  Get with it... you're going down again, boy.

John Smith wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:53pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:23pm: I cannot think of anything attributable to capitalism that compares to what communists did through evil intent or incompetence. Feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong. So weapons companies lobbying members of governments to go to war after war after war don't count? People that dies in cars,trucks,planes and buses because someone tried to cut corners to increase profits don't count?

They count - but they are not in the same category.

And no war has EVER started because of the lobbying of weapons manufacturers. None. Ever.

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:11pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:09pm: freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 4:42pm: If you split the deaths caused by communism into deliberate extermination and death due to failure of the state to provide the basic services that communism intends them to (eg the Great Chinese Famine), which would be greater? I don't thinks the Russian and Chinese famines were "failures to provide". They were engineered, in the Soviet Ukrainian case, to force collectivisation. https://www.britannica.com/event/Holodomor#ref1264568 The Chinese famines were also engineered by the communist leadership, they called it the great leap forward (another glaring and sad example of communist double speak, as Orwell nailed it). Orwell was a socialist

A thoughtful, self-aware, sophisticated, thinking one, unlike you, a bumtious, ignorant, unlettered two bit screamer.

Jasin wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 9:37pm:

Cubans did very well under Communism. Better than Americans did under Capitalism. ;D

Yeah, that's why half of them escaped to Florida.

Frank wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 10:46pm:

Jasin wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 9:37pm: Cubans did very well under Communism. Better than Americans did under Capitalism. ;D Yeah, that's why half of them escaped to Florida.

If that was true, then why are Americans swimming to Cuba - now the truth is revealed?
Sure some Cubans were pro-American and were 'hunted out' to America.
But Cubans interviewed said they loved Castro who looked after them (not the traitors for America) and even under bullying sanctions, found life 'tranquil' and sustainable.

...Cubans live longer than Americans by 20 years. Sign of a good nation.

Jasin wrote on Jun 11^th, 2022 at 8:04am:

Frank wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 10:46pm: Jasin wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 9:37pm: Cubans did very well under Communism. Better than Americans did under Capitalism. ;D Yeah, that's why half of them escaped to Florida. If that was true, then why are Americans swimming to Cuba - now the truth is revealed? Sure some Cubans were pro-American and were 'hunted out' to America. But Cubans interviewed said they loved Castro who looked after them (not the traitors for America) and even under bullying sanctions, found life 'tranquil' and sustainable. ...Cubans live longer than Americans by 20 years. Sign of a good nation.

I guess you haven't heard of the collapse of the Soviet Union and its immediate catastrophic effect on the Cuban economy, that was artificially propped up by the Soviet Union, and from which it has never recovered.

In 2019, Cuba's GDP per capita was US$9,000. This is up significantly as a result of property and free market rights granted in the last decade, and it is catching up to some of it's neighbours like Mexico.

America's is $64,000.

Frank wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 10:42pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:53pm: freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:23pm: I cannot think of anything attributable to capitalism that compares to what communists did through evil intent or incompetence. Feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong. So weapons companies lobbying members of governments to go to war after war after war don't count? People that dies in cars,trucks,planes and buses because someone tried to cut corners to increase profits don't count? They count - but they are not in the same category. And no war has EVER started because of the lobbying of weapons manufacturers. None. Ever.

See FD, a straight answer ....  No pussy footing around pretending to have a clue. Now why don't you try it.

By the way sore end, I disagree with the last comment. AMERICA for one, has been at war for just about every year  for the last 60 years precisely because of the war machine industry lobbying govt. And thats just the US

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 11^th, 2022 at 8:37am:

I guess you haven't heard of the collapse of the Soviet Union and its immediate catastrophic effect on the Cuban economy, that was artificially propped up by the Soviet Union, and from which it has never recovered.

The Cuban economy only  needed to be propped up artificially in the first place because of Western embargoes. Any failure of the Cuban economy is as likely to do with Western interference than it does it's system of govt.

John Smith wrote on Jun 11^th, 2022 at 10:53am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 11th, 2022 at 8:37am: I guess you haven't heard of the collapse of the Soviet Union and its immediate catastrophic effect on the Cuban economy, that was artificially propped up by the Soviet Union, and from which it has never recovered. The Cuban economy only  needed to be propped up artificially in the first place because of Western embargoes. Any failure of the Cuban economy is as likely to do with Western interference than it does it's system of govt.

Because communism always works out well for the economy, right?

freediver wrote on Jun 11^th, 2022 at 10:55am:

John Smith wrote on Jun 11th, 2022 at 10:53am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 11th, 2022 at 8:37am: I guess you haven't heard of the collapse of the Soviet Union and its immediate catastrophic effect on the Cuban economy, that was artificially propped up by the Soviet Union, and from which it has never recovered. The Cuban economy only  needed to be propped up artificially in the first place because of Western embargoes. Any failure of the Cuban economy is as likely to do with Western interference than it does it's system of govt. Because communism always works out well for the economy, right?

I guess we'll never know since there hasn't, to my knowledge, been a single communist govt. that the west hasn't sabotaged.

John Smith wrote on Jun 11^th, 2022 at 10:50am:

Frank wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 10:42pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:53pm: freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 5:23pm: I cannot think of anything attributable to capitalism that compares to what communists did through evil intent or incompetence. Feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong. So weapons companies lobbying members of governments to go to war after war after war don't count? People that dies in cars,trucks,planes and buses because someone tried to cut corners to increase profits don't count? They count - but they are not in the same category. And no war has EVER started because of the lobbying of weapons manufacturers. None. Ever. See FD, a straight answer ....  No pussy footing around pretending to have a clue. Now why don't you try it. By the way sore end, I disagree with the last comment. AMERICA for one, has been at war for just about every year  for the last 60 years precisely because of the war machine industry lobbying govt. And thats just the US

Show us which war was started by the US because the weapons manufacturers told the government to start one.
This is pure fantasy. The system of checks and balances is simple to complex and long-established for such jejune, B grade fictional fantasy.

Frank wrote on Jun 11^th, 2022 at 11:54am:

Show us which war was started by the US because the weapons manufacturers told the government to start one

started / prolonged.. it's just semantics.

Start with iraq

John Smith wrote on Jun 11^th, 2022 at 11:02am:

freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2022 at 10:55am: John Smith wrote on Jun 11th, 2022 at 10:53am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 11th, 2022 at 8:37am: I guess you haven't heard of the collapse of the Soviet Union and its immediate catastrophic effect on the Cuban economy, that was artificially propped up by the Soviet Union, and from which it has never recovered. The Cuban economy only  needed to be propped up artificially in the first place because of Western embargoes. Any failure of the Cuban economy is as likely to do with Western interference than it does it's system of govt. Because communism always works out well for the economy, right? I guess we'll never know since there hasn't, to my knowledge, been a single communist govt. that the west hasn't sabotaged.

Yugoslavia. Communism collapsed, as did its superficial multiethnic unity.

The eastern European countries that were freed from Russian-Soviet control and meddling (e.g. Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, the Baltic states, Hungary, East Germany via unification), went on to become stable, prosperous democracies.

John Smith wrote on Jun 11^th, 2022 at 11:56am:

Frank wrote on Jun 11th, 2022 at 11:54am: Show us which war was started by the US because the weapons manufacturers told the government to start one started / prolonged.. it's just semantics. Start with iraq

How did they do this? How can private companies override the government, the public service, the press, the popular sentiment and will, the military, the intelligence service etc?

Frank wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 9:27am:

John Smith wrote on Jun 11th, 2022 at 11:56am: Frank wrote on Jun 11th, 2022 at 11:54am: Show us which war was started by the US because the weapons manufacturers told the government to start one started / prolonged.. it's just semantics. Start with iraq How did they do this? How can private companies override the government, the public service, the press, the popular sentiment and will, the military, the intelligence service etc?

override the govt?  ;D ;D ;D ;D

I know you are oblivious to the realities of life but they don't have to override govt. when they can buy them.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 8:32am:

Yugoslavia. Communism collapsed, as did its superficial multiethnic unity.

They had bigger issues


MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 8:32am:

The eastern European countries that were freed from Russian-Soviet control and meddling (e.g. Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, the Baltic states, Hungary, East Germany via unification), went on to become stable, prosperous democracies.

AFTER trade and economic sanctions against them had been lifted.

Because the government stopped slaughtering it's own citizens and controlling the food supply.

Why are you so eager to support fascist mass murderers John?

I wonder how Australia would go if America put embargos on it just because of a political difference?

USA: The Rogue most invasive nation on the planet. Putting in Dictators to keep other nations weak.

freediver wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 4:16pm:

Because the government stopped slaughtering it's own citizens and controlling the food supply. Why are you so eager to support fascist mass murderers John?

I'm not supporting anyone FD. I just enjoy highlighting your stupidity.

You think you're some sort of an economist and you have no idea  trade sanctions affect economies  ;D ;D ;D


I think you've been fibbing to yourself

Quote:

You think you're some sort of an economist and you have no idea  trade sanctions affect economies

So does slaughtering your own population and starving them to death by trying to control the food supply.

Jasin wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 4:19pm:

I wonder how Australia would go if America put embargos on it just because of a political difference? USA: The Rogue most invasive nation on the planet. Putting in Dictators to keep other nations weak.

What are your thoughts on China under the CCP embargoing Australian exports over a proposal about investigating where covid-19 originated?

freediver wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 4:41pm:

Quote: You think you're some sort of an economist and you have no idea  trade sanctions affect economies So does slaughtering your own population and starving them to death by trying to control the food supply.

   Keep deflecting from your stupidity FD  ;D ;D

Jasin wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 4:19pm:

I wonder how Australia would go if America put embargos on it just because of a political difference? USA: The Rogue most invasive nation on the planet. Putting in Dictators to keep other nations weak.

It's not just the USA -
most countries are forced to do business with dubious countries.
Saudi Arabia is one example.
It has serious human rights breaches yet because they have oil
we do business with them.

This man is a murderer and a beast:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Mohammad_bin_Salman_October_2019_%28cropped%29.jpg/220px-Mohammad_bin_Salman_October_2019_%28cropped%29.jpg

Mohammed bin Salman Al Saud colloquially known as MBS,
is a Saudi Arabian politician who is the crown prince,
deputy prime minister, and minister of defense of Saudi Arabia.
He also serves as the chairman of the Council of Economic and Development Affairs
and chairman of the Council of Political and Security Affairs.

John Smith wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 4:11pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 8:32am: Yugoslavia. Communism collapsed, as did its superficial multiethnic unity. They had bigger issues MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 8:32am: The eastern European countries that were freed from Russian-Soviet control and meddling (e.g. Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, the Baltic states, Hungary, East Germany via unification), went on to become stable, prosperous democracies. AFTER trade and economic sanctions against them had been lifted.

Why wouldn't the West have economic sanctions against a block that was avowedly in the business of destroying the West?  And if the Soviet Union and the other socialist countries were the shiny future of humanity, alternative to the horrible capitalist West - why did they need the West, why did it matter that they couldn't trade with the hated, dying, demonic West?

Plenty Planks, you are too thick and ignorant for all this.  Go and lay some bricks, there's a good boy.

Frank wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 7:40pm:

Why wouldn't the West have economic sanctions against a block that was avowedly in the business of destroying the West?

I don't care why or why not. They failed because they were sabotaged. To cry communism doesn't work because every example of it has failed, when it has been sabotaged at every attempt, just shows either ignorance on you part or a deliberate lie

John Smith wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 7:45pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:40pm: Why wouldn't the West have economic sanctions against a block that was avowedly in the business of destroying the West?  I don't care why or why not. They failed because they were sabotaged. To cry communism doesn't work because every example of it has failed, when it has been sabotaged at every attempt, just shows either ignorance on you part or a deliberate lie

Why did then NEED the West, the system they wanted to bury???

Do not be thicker than you naturally are, Gino.

Frank wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 7:57pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:45pm: Frank wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:40pm: Why wouldn't the West have economic sanctions against a block that was avowedly in the business of destroying the West?  I don't care why or why not. They failed because they were sabotaged. To cry communism doesn't work because every example of it has failed, when it has been sabotaged at every attempt, just shows either ignorance on you part or a deliberate lie Why did then NEED the West, the system they wanted to bury??? Do not be thicker than you naturally are, Gino.

Why sabotage them if 'communism doesn't work' dopey :D :D

John Smith wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 7:58pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:57pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:45pm: Frank wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:40pm: Why wouldn't the West have economic sanctions against a block that was avowedly in the business of destroying the West?  I don't care why or why not. They failed because they were sabotaged. To cry communism doesn't work because every example of it has failed, when it has been sabotaged at every attempt, just shows either ignorance on you part or a deliberate lie Why did then NEED the West, the system they wanted to bury??? Do not be thicker than you naturally are, Gino. Why sabotage them if 'communism doesn't work' dopey :D :D

Because they wanted to destroy the West.

Frank wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 8:14pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:58pm: Frank wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:57pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:45pm: Frank wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:40pm: Why wouldn't the West have economic sanctions against a block that was avowedly in the business of destroying the West?  I don't care why or why not. They failed because they were sabotaged. To cry communism doesn't work because every example of it has failed, when it has been sabotaged at every attempt, just shows either ignorance on you part or a deliberate lie Why did then NEED the West, the system they wanted to bury??? Do not be thicker than you naturally are, Gino. Why sabotage them if 'communism doesn't work' dopey :D :D Because they wanted to destroy the West.

you mean they wanted to spread communism in the way the west wanted to spread 'Democracy' ... how dare they ehh :D :D :D

Why do the right get so triggered about something that is virtually non existent ?

John Smith wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 8:18pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 8:14pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:58pm: Frank wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:57pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:45pm: Frank wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:40pm: Why wouldn't the West have economic sanctions against a block that was avowedly in the business of destroying the West?  I don't care why or why not. They failed because they were sabotaged. To cry communism doesn't work because every example of it has failed, when it has been sabotaged at every attempt, just shows either ignorance on you part or a deliberate lie Why did then NEED the West, the system they wanted to bury??? Do not be thicker than you naturally are, Gino. Why sabotage them if 'communism doesn't work' dopey :D :D Because they wanted to destroy the West. you mean they wanted to spread communism in the way the west wanted to spread 'Democracy' ... how dare they ehh :D :D :D

The West did not need the socialist economies and was obviously entitled to resist the communist attempts to destroy and overthrow it.
But if socialism was such a wonderful idea it would have thrived no matter what the evil western capitalists did, no?
No.

Socialism - international socialism at that  -  is an idiotic idea only morons like you cling to after its evident failure.

All current and past attempts at socialism are failures. Why? Because it is a 'state knows best' bollocks, sidelining individual talent and ability in favour of foregrounding bankrupt 19th century Marxist theory - socialism- ahead of life.

If Christianity was Platonism for the masses, Socialism/Marxism is Hegelian dialectic for the masses: dumbed down theory.

It's always the followers, the disciples, the epigones, the followers who fkk it all up, always.

See the great Inquisitor in Dostoyevsky's Brothers Karamazov.

Dnarever wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 8:45pm:

Why do the right get so triggered about something that is virtually non existent ?

Nazism?

freediver wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 9:28pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 8:45pm: Why do the right get so triggered about something that is virtually non existent ? Nazism?

Most countries do have active violent nationalist groups mostly white nationalists in the west. Yes they are virtually non distinguishable from Nazi's and they are a genuine threat.

For example in the US at present they are a substantial part of the republican party and were / are a strong driving part of the Trump base. Hundreds of them turned out for the Jan 6 insurrection.

Dnarever wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 9:47pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 9:28pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 8:45pm: Why do the right get so triggered about something that is virtually non existent ? Nazism? Most countries do have active violent nationalist groups mostly white nationalists in the west. Yes they are virtually non distinguishable from Nazi's and they are a genuine threat. For example in the US at present they are a substantial part of the republican party and were / are a strong driving part of the Trump base. Hundreds of them turned out for the Jan 6 insurrection.

And the communists aren't?

Frank wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 4:39pm:

Why don’t we remember the victims of communism?

Because the problems associated with neoliberal capitalism are the issues we must deal with now, since the collapse of the USSR in 1990.   

https://scheerpost.com/2022/05/04/ellen-brown-a-monetary-reset-where-the-rich-dont-own-everything/

Ellen Brown: A Monetary Reset Where the Rich Don’t Own Everything

May 4, 2022

We have a serious debt problem, but solutions such as the World Economic Forum’s “Great Reset” are not the future we want. It’s time to think outside the box for some new solutions.

Comfortable  conservatives are of course the last people capable of thinking  "outside the box", because their  blind survival of the fittest ideology is rooted solely in self-interest, regardless of current economic crises afflicting people everywhere.

John Smith wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 4:11pm:

AFTER trade and economic sanctions against them had been lifted.

Even the Leninesque / Stalinesque Putin considers communism a joke.

Those who lived under communism all subscribe to the joke about communism - 'They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work'.

Marx himself and Engels became disillusioned about communism's pragmatism, even if they remained sentimental about the idea of: 'from each according to his ability; to each according to his need.'

Imagining there's no heaven, no countries, no possessions, no religion is beautiful and works well in a place called Utopia - where human nature and instincts don't exist.

For the rest of us there are heavens, boundaries, countries, possessions and religions as fundamental and ineradicable components (among others) of the human experience.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 10:21pm:

Imagining there's no heaven, no countries, no possessions, no religion is beautiful and works well in a place called Utopia - where human nature and instincts don't exist.

Ah...human nature, causing the current catastrophe in Ukraine, in which cowardly Biden is using Ukrainians as cannon fodder to destroy Russia, since Biden can't risk a nuclear exchange with Russia.

Ain't "human nature" glorious.....


Quote:

For the rest of us there are heavens,

with angels and/or  virgins...which you don't believe in for a moment, you cynical fraud...


Quote:

boundaries, countries,

.."God made men into tribes and nations that they might know one-another by their differences": Koran: 49, 13.

..not that they would slaughter one-another in  endless "righteous wars" .....


Quote:

possessions and religions as fundamental and ineradicable components (among others) of the human experience.

" Possessions" ....according to Conservative, survival of the fittest, greedy ideology. 

"O what a Chimera is Man....What a novelty, a monster, a chaos, a contradiction, a prodigy! Judge of all things, an imbecile worm; depository of truth, and sewer of error and doubt; the glory and refuse of the universe.” ― Blaise Pascal, Pensées.

Your instinctive neanderthal reptilian brain, blocking your conscious rational cortex brain,  clearly  identifies which side of the ledger you inhabit.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 10:42pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 10:21pm: Imagining there's no heaven, no countries, no possessions, no religion is beautiful and works well in a place called Utopia - where human nature and instincts don't exist. Ah...human nature, causing the current catastrophe in Ukraine, in which cowardly Biden is using Ukrainians as cannon fodder to destroy Russia, since Biden can't risk a nuclear exchange with Russia. Ain't "human nature" glorious.....

Mao was happy to sacrifice half of China's population to maintain his psychopathic need for control. Xi reiterated the sentiment at the 100 years of CCP hell birthday bash.

Mao starved millions to death to satisfy his ego.

Inner Mongolians, Tibetans, Hong Kongers would love to be independent of the CCP.

Did you watch the video of Chinese men bashing women? A common occurrence in China.

But you know all that already.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 10:18pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 4:39pm: Why don’t we remember the victims of communism? Because the problems associated with neoliberal capitalism are the issues we must deal with now, since the collapse of the USSR in 1990.    https://scheerpost.com/2022/05/04/ellen-brown-a-monetary-reset-where-the-rich-dont-own-everything/ Ellen Brown: A Monetary Reset Where the Rich Don’t Own Everything May 4, 2022 We have a serious debt problem, but solutions such as the World Economic Forum’s “Great Reset” are not the future we want. It’s time to think outside the box for some new solutions. Comfortable  conservatives are of course the last people capable of thinking  "outside the box", because their  blind survival of the fittest ideology is rooted solely in self-interest, regardless of current economic crises afflicting people everywhere.

You are a monomaniac moron.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 10:51pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 10:42pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 10:21pm: Imagining there's no heaven, no countries, no possessions, no religion is beautiful and works well in a place called Utopia - where human nature and instincts don't exist. Ah...human nature, causing the current catastrophe in Ukraine, in which cowardly Biden is using Ukrainians as cannon fodder to destroy Russia, since Biden can't risk a nuclear exchange with Russia. Ain't "human nature" glorious..... Mao was happy to sacrifice half of China's population to maintain his psychopathic need for control.

No he wasn't - he was a "contradiction" like all of us, you blind ideologue - ruled by your reptilian brain - incapable of comprehending  Pascal's stark understanding of the human  condition  ...


Quote:

Xi reiterated the sentiment at the 100 years of CCP hell birthday bash.

Not that at all, you blind ideologue; Xi celebrated the founding of the CCP  , and the resultant fastest increase in living standards of any large  nation in history, post 1980. 




Quote:

Mao starved millions to death to satisfy his ego.

Indeed monstrous - like you who defends "legal war" as mere "human nature" ...ie "the sewer of the universe" as correctly identified by Pascal.


Quote:

Inner Mongolians, Tibetans, Hong Kongers would love to be independent of the CCP.

Only the "freedom" goons who want to die in war for "freedom", putting  their own self-interest above collective well being. 


Quote:

Did you watch the video of Chinese men bashing women? A common occurrence in China. But you know all that already.

... here we go, incapable of looking in the mirror (how much is the Oz government spending on the pandemic of domestic violence....); and satisfied with the debt catastrophe of global neoliberalism crushing the hopes of a billion people. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 11:09pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 10:51pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 10:42pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 10:21pm: Imagining there's no heaven, no countries, no possessions, no religion is beautiful and works well in a place called Utopia - where human nature and instincts don't exist. Ah...human nature, causing the current catastrophe in Ukraine, in which cowardly Biden is using Ukrainians as cannon fodder to destroy Russia, since Biden can't risk a nuclear exchange with Russia. Ain't "human nature" glorious..... Mao was happy to sacrifice half of China's population to maintain his psychopathic need for control. No he wasn't - he was a "contradiction" like all of us, you blind ideologue - ruled by your reptilian brain - incapable of comprehending  Pascal's stark understanding of the human  condition  ... Xi reiterated the sentiment at the 100 years of CCP hell birthday bash. Quote: Mao starved millions to death to satisfy his ego. Indeed monstrous - like you who defends "legal war"... [quote]Inner Mongolians, Tibetans, Hong Kongers would love to be independent of the CCP.

Only the "freedom" goons who want to die in war for "freedom", putting  their own self-interest above collective well being. 


Quote:

Did you watch the video of Chinese men bashing women? A common occurrence in China. But you know all that already.

... incapable of looking in the  mirror...and satisfied with the debt catastrophe of global neoliberalism. [/quote]
The CCP is a mob of gangsters. There is no sense of the collective well being for the people under the CCP. That's why the Chinese judiciary is not independent of the CCP - the mafia on steroids.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 11:18pm:

The CCP is a mob of gangsters. There is no sense of the collective well being for the people under the CCP.

Absolute lie. Xi has only this year repeated the requirement to attain  "common prosperity"...after the market economy was creating excessive inequality and market failures. 


Quote:

That's why the Chinese judiciary is not independent of the CCP - the mafia on steroids.

The judiciary enforces the law as written in the constitution.

Currently the US is running into problems with the obsolete 2nd Amendment beloved of paranoid "fear of tyrannical government " gun-loving neanderthals who want to take the law into their own hands...

freediver wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 9:51pm:

And the communists aren't?

Who are these "communists" today?

...cf the current crop of white supremacists and neonazis.....

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 11:27pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 11:18pm: The CCP is a mob of gangsters. There is no sense of the collective well being for the people under the CCP. Absolute lie. Xi has only this year repeated the requirement to attain  "common prosperity"...after the market economy was creating excessive inequality and market failures.  Quote: That's why the Chinese judiciary is not independent of the CCP - the mafia on steroids. The judiciary enforces the law as written in the constitution. Currently the US is running into problems with the obsolete 2nd Amendment beloved of paranoid "fear of tyrannical government " gun-loving neanderthals who want to take the law into their own hands...

Would you like me to send you links on the ghost city fraud perpetrated by the CCP on the Chinese people to create the pretense of a booming real estate market?

How about videos on how the judiciary is instructed by the CCP to determine the outcome of cases, even before the cases are heard; particularly when it is protecting CCP officials?

freediver wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 9:51pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 9:47pm: freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 9:28pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 8:45pm: Why do the right get so triggered about something that is virtually non existent ? Nazism? Most countries do have active violent nationalist groups mostly white nationalists in the west. Yes they are virtually non distinguishable from Nazi's and they are a genuine threat. For example in the US at present they are a substantial part of the republican party and were / are a strong driving part of the Trump base. Hundreds of them turned out for the Jan 6 insurrection. And the communists aren't?

How many seats do the communists look like winning anywhere in the west ?

For example Australia where the answer is zero.

Keep in mind this is to compare with the fascist white nationalist that are currently a major component driving the policy of one of the major parties of the USA - They supposedly lead the free world. (The USA where the answer is also zero communists).

These comments about China are likely mostly correct.

China have been moving towards a market economy and away from traditional communism for at least 2 decades.

Dnarever wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 11:46pm:

These comments about China are likely mostly correct. China have been moving towards a market economy and away from traditional communism for at least 2 decades.

The CCP moved China to the home of unregulated pyramid scams.

[quote author=Jim_Puddle-Duck link=1654843195/87#87 date=1655041324]

Same with the Incredible Expanding Nazis that some here keep raving about.... ZERO chance of ever taking control of government here..... yet some think everyone but their chosen group is a Nazi.....

Madness - pure madness.....

The greatest threat to democracy is government itself.... we must always have in place, and fully fortified, adequate guards against government with its unmitigated power, cash resources, and command of all other resources to impose its will....

If we continue to permit elected government to successively erode the fundamental legal and civil rights of the populace - we will soon begin the rapid final descent into Stalinism or Nazism  disguised as despotism of a self-appointed and 'educated' elite steeped in the virtues of controlling all others to attain their ends.......

These are no different from dictators and despots past.... and the difference between the Hitlerite despot and the Stalinist despot is as nothing given the actual results on the ground..... a ground more than adequately fertilised by the corpses of all those they run over in their mindless pursuit of power at any cost to attain their half-thought out ends ......

Freedom of rights to go about one's business in peace and without actually harming any other, must be protected and defended at all costs, lest we descend into a greater darkness than that which has possessed Europe over and  over again in many ways.......

You may quote me at some time in the future, or even today ..... perhaps when I am no longer here to defend your last remaining frontiers of justice and fair play........... and when that day comes, truly a Veil of Darkness will have descended upon humanity as we once knew it................. and purely to satisfy the cravings of a few delusional individuals and groups for control over all others without let.....

Today I read a Tweet about the Teals wanting a 'code of conduct' - something sadly lacking and long overdue in our houses of Parliament and similar.... and the poster said that it was a pity that the impetus for this came from 'educated, elite, women'.

I raise the question:-  WHY is it considered that ONLY 'educated, elite, women' can have a sufficient morality to seek such a thing?  ALL good men and women pursue such things in their daily lives - there is no need for any educated elite, regardless of sex, colour or creed, to dictate to them how to behave and what to think.... they are more than capable of doing that for themselves - ALL of them - and there is NO special Entitlement™ of morality and high standing from ANY single group, whether it be black, white, male or female ... ONLY from good and true men and women...educated or not and certainly not members of some  'elite'.

A society of True Equals demands this nonsensical promotion of certain groups over others, as somehow being 'superior', must cease forthwith, and plain, ordinary sense prevail......

I thank the House and People for listening to my first speech upon election...... now let the games begin!

Dnarever wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 11:42pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 9:51pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 9:47pm: freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 9:28pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 8:45pm: Why do the right get so triggered about something that is virtually non existent ? Nazism? Most countries do have active violent nationalist groups mostly white nationalists in the west. Yes they are virtually non distinguishable from Nazi's and they are a genuine threat. For example in the US at present they are a substantial part of the republican party and were / are a strong driving part of the Trump base. Hundreds of them turned out for the Jan 6 insurrection. And the communists aren't? How many seats do the communists look like winning anywhere in the west ? For example Australia where the answer is zero. Keep in mind this is to compare with the fascist white nationalist that are currently a major component driving the policy of one of the major parties of the USA - They supposedly lead the free world. (The USA where the answer is also zero communists).

The communists outrank the Nazis on just about every measure.

They killed far more people throughout history than the Nazis. Even if you exclude the deliberate killings, their incompetence is far more dangerous. The CCP may have embraced economic capitalism, but they are still communists at heart, and their mindboggling incompetence in handling covid has killed probably millions more people than would have died if it the initial outbreak had been handled half way decently.

Communists came far closer than Nazis to taking over the world.

There are far more communists than Nazis around today.

Communists hold far more political power today than Nazis, in every corner of the globe. They still run the show in plenty of dark corners, and have their finger on the trigger of nukes. They could still trigger nuclear armageddon at a moment's notice, or start WWIII. Every western nation has at least one, and typically several communist parties. And they hold a lot of power within more mainstream parties such as the greens.

What makes them most dangerous is people's blindness to them, at least in the west. People instinctively associate Nazis with evil, but will often make up all sorts of silly excuses for communists. John Smith and Future are great examples of why the Communists are still more dangerous today. They have an army of disaffected morons, and somehow have the public's sympathy when they use violence and intimidation to undermine freedom of speech, while ironically labelling themselves anti-fascists.

That's why it's important to remember the victims of communism. Those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.

Frank wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 9:05pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 8:18pm: Frank wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 8:14pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:58pm: Frank wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:57pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:45pm: Frank wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:40pm: Why wouldn't the West have economic sanctions against a block that was avowedly in the business of destroying the West?  I don't care why or why not. They failed because they were sabotaged. To cry communism doesn't work because every example of it has failed, when it has been sabotaged at every attempt, just shows either ignorance on you part or a deliberate lie Why did then NEED the West, the system they wanted to bury??? Do not be thicker than you naturally are, Gino. Why sabotage them if 'communism doesn't work' dopey :D :D Because they wanted to destroy the West. you mean they wanted to spread communism in the way the west wanted to spread 'Democracy' ... how dare they ehh :D :D :D The West did not need the socialist economies and was obviously entitled to resist the communist attempts to destroy and overthrow it.

Only because the USA controlled the global economy

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 10:21pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 4:11pm: AFTER trade and economic sanctions against them had been lifted. Even the Leninesque / Stalinesque Putin considers communism a joke. Those who lived under communism all subscribe to the joke about communism - 'They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work'. Marx himself and Engels became disillusioned about communism's pragmatism, even if they remained sentimental about the idea of: 'from each according to his ability; to each according to his need.' Imagining there's no heaven, no countries, no possessions, no religion is beautiful and works well in a place called Utopia - where human nature and instincts don't exist. For the rest of us there are heavens, boundaries, countries, possessions and religions as fundamental and ineradicable components (among others) of the human experience.

In my opinion Communism cannot work. Eventually human greed prevents it doing so. Funnily enough, it's the same reason capitalism, if left to it's own devices, cannot work.

I'm not advocating communism. Whilst it's good in theory, reality doesn't  quite live up to it. But for FD to continuously claim it hasn't worked because of past failures, when every past example has been sabotaged by the west, is akin to shoving your  head up your arse and ignoring reality. 

What works best sits in the middle of the two systems

John Smith wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 9:54am:

Only because the USA controlled the global economy

For all systems that initially achieve hegemony, current circumstances beyond their control cannot be excluded as its cause; the system that sustains its hegemony, over prolonged time, requires the fundamental capacity to control the circumstances of its status.

John Smith wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 10:01am:

In my opinion Communism cannot work. Eventually human greed prevents it doing so. Funnily enough, it's the same reason capitalism, if left to it's own devices, cannot work.

It is a fundamental and ineradicable human instinct to be acquisitive.

How well it's managed is a measure of the worth of the system that manages it.

John Smith wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 9:54am:

Frank wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 9:05pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 8:18pm: Frank wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 8:14pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:58pm: Frank wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:57pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:45pm: Frank wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 7:40pm: Why wouldn't the West have economic sanctions against a block that was avowedly in the business of destroying the West?  I don't care why or why not. They failed because they were sabotaged. To cry communism doesn't work because every example of it has failed, when it has been sabotaged at every attempt, just shows either ignorance on you part or a deliberate lie Why did then NEED the West, the system they wanted to bury??? Do not be thicker than you naturally are, Gino. Why sabotage them if 'communism doesn't work' dopey :D :D Because they wanted to destroy the West. you mean they wanted to spread communism in the way the west wanted to spread 'Democracy' ... how dare they ehh :D :D :D The West did not need the socialist economies and was obviously entitled to resist the communist attempts to destroy and overthrow it. Only because the USA controlled the global economy

Nonsense. Socialist countries had their own trading block:


Soviet foreign trade played only a minor role in the Soviet economy. In 1985, for example, exports and imports each accounted for only 4 percent of the Soviet gross national product. The Soviet Union maintained this low level because it could draw upon a large energy and raw material base, and because it historically had pursued a policy of self-sufficiency. Other foreign economic activity included economic aid programs, which primarily benefited the less developed Council for Mutual Economic Assistance (COMECON) countries of Cuba, Mongolia, and Vietnam.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_trade_of_the_Soviet_Union

Frank wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 11:06am:

Nonsense. Socialist countries had their own trading block:

So the USA didn't control the global economy? Fkk me dead you are a dead set moron sometimes. ::)

John Smith wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 11:15am:

Frank wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 11:06am: Nonsense. Socialist countries had their own trading block: So the USA didn't control the global economy? Fkk me dead you are a dead set moron sometimes. ::)

Show us the evidence, don't just emote.

In 1985, for example, exports and imports each accounted for only 4 percent of the Soviet gross national product. The Soviet Union maintained this low level because it could draw upon a large energy and raw material base, and because it historically had pursued a policy of self-sufficiency

Frank wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 11:18am:

Show us the evidence, don't just emote.

How many countries where the USSR could buy modern technology (of the era) would accept Russian rubles do you think? ::)

John Smith wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 11:24am:

Frank wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 11:18am: Show us the evidence, don't just emote. How many countries where the USSR could buy modern technology (of the era) would accept Russian rubles do you think? ::)

Irrelevant. The. Russians sent man into space long before the US.
Socialism didn't collapse because they didn't have  colour tv. It collapsed because it is, by definition, oppressive, stultifying economically, culturally.

In the end it is likely to be that socialism failed slightly quicker than capitalism.

Frank wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 12:03pm:

Irrelevant.

Only in your own mind

Dnarever wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 12:16pm:

In the end it is likely to be that socialism failed slightly quicker than capitalism.

Capitalism has needed socialsim to keep propping it up otherwise it would have died ages ago

Dnarever wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 12:16pm:

In the end it is likely to be that socialism failed slightly quicker than capitalism.

Slightly quicker? Communism rose and collapsed within barely 70 years. Capitalism has existed since the 18th century.

John Smith wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 12:23pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:03pm: Irrelevant. Only in your own mind

Show us, then. Your declarations are baseless.

John Smith wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 12:24pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:16pm: In the end it is likely to be that socialism failed slightly quicker than capitalism. Capitalism has needed socialsim to keep propping it up otherwise it would have died ages ago

How?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FU_c7qdXEAIS6DX?format=jpg&name=900x900

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 1:05pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:16pm: In the end it is likely to be that socialism failed slightly quicker than capitalism. Capitalism has needed socialsim to keep propping it up otherwise it would have died ages ago How?

using public money to prop up private enterprise.

https://youtu.be/oT8_OnhzkSg?t=514

John Smith wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 1:28pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:05pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:16pm: In the end it is likely to be that socialism failed slightly quicker than capitalism. Capitalism has needed socialsim to keep propping it up otherwise it would have died ages ago How? using public money to prop up private enterprise.

:D :D :D
So tax is socialism.

John Smith wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 1:28pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:05pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:16pm: In the end it is likely to be that socialism failed slightly quicker than capitalism. Capitalism has needed socialsim to keep propping it up otherwise it would have died ages ago How? using public money to prop up private enterprise.

:D :D :D
So tax is socialism.

Frank wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 1:33pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:28pm: freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:05pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:16pm: In the end it is likely to be that socialism failed slightly quicker than capitalism. Capitalism has needed socialsim to keep propping it up otherwise it would have died ages ago How? using public money to prop up private enterprise. :D :D :D So tax is socialism.

public money is

Frank wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 1:33pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:28pm: freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:05pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:16pm: In the end it is likely to be that socialism failed slightly quicker than capitalism. Capitalism has needed socialsim to keep propping it up otherwise it would have died ages ago How? using public money to prop up private enterprise. :D :D :D So tax is socialism.

No but public money bail outs and government backed guarantees in economic emergencies are.

There is a long history of government propping up the banking sector and business interests to prevent it from failing in recessions and economic downturns such as the GFC etc. It only happens in 10 to 15 year cycles and is a natural part of the competitive market economy.

Yes left by itself the free market model routinely fails and requires socialist type bail outs to continue to operate effectively.

John Smith wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 1:28pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:05pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:16pm: In the end it is likely to be that socialism failed slightly quicker than capitalism. Capitalism has needed socialsim to keep propping it up otherwise it would have died ages ago How? using public money to prop up private enterprise.

And you think capitalism would fail without this?

Dnarever wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 1:45pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:33pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:28pm: freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:05pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:16pm: In the end it is likely to be that socialism failed slightly quicker than capitalism. Capitalism has needed socialsim to keep propping it up otherwise it would have died ages ago How? using public money to prop up private enterprise. :D :D :D So tax is socialism. No but public money bail outs and government backed guarantees in economic emergencies are. There is a long history of government propping up the banking sector and business interests to prevent it from failing in recessions and economic downturns such as the GFC etc. It only happens in 10 to 15 year cycles and is a natural part of the competitive market economy. Yes left by itself the free market model routinely fails and requires socialist type bail outs to continue to operate effectively.

Governments acting in the national interest is not socialism. Plenty of enterprises are left to fail because their failure is not a threat to the national interest.
The World Bank, IMF, European Central Bank lending to countries - including socialist ones - is not socialism.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 10:18am:

John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 10:01am: In my opinion Communism cannot work. Eventually human greed prevents it doing so. Funnily enough, it's the same reason capitalism, if left to it's own devices, cannot work. It is a fundamental and ineradicable human instinct to be acquisitive. How well it's managed is a measure of the worth of the system that manages it.

I was going to say - without that 'greed' and self-seeking, the human race would not have survived in a very long history of desperate survival.  ONLY in a developed and socialised society do people, individually or in small groups, genuinely share around the fruits of their labours - and only on a voluntary basis.  In all others it is catch as catch can..... hence the concept of The Great Outback Friendly Barbecue is utter nonsense, as the massacres of Indigenous by other Indigenous shows...

When things are short - the focus is always on your own first.

Frank wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 2:07pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:45pm: Frank wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:33pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:28pm: freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:05pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:16pm: In the end it is likely to be that socialism failed slightly quicker than capitalism. Capitalism has needed socialsim to keep propping it up otherwise it would have died ages ago How? using public money to prop up private enterprise. :D :D :D So tax is socialism. No but public money bail outs and government backed guarantees in economic emergencies are. There is a long history of government propping up the banking sector and business interests to prevent it from failing in recessions and economic downturns such as the GFC etc. It only happens in 10 to 15 year cycles and is a natural part of the competitive market economy. Yes left by itself the free market model routinely fails and requires socialist type bail outs to continue to operate effectively. Governments acting in the national interest is not socialism. Plenty of enterprises are left to fail because their failure is not a threat to the national interest. The World Bank, IMF, European Central Bank lending to countries - including socialist ones - is not socialism.

Where are these communists Franky-boi?

Russia isn't, China isn't.  So where are they?

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 2:27pm:

I was going to say - without that 'greed' and self-seeking, the human race would not have survived in a very long history of desperate survival.

Crap. It's not greed that has allowed humans to survive. If anything it has always been a hindrance to human development.

It's having the time and desire to seek answers and to make things easier for ourselves. Societies where people have to hunt 12 hrs a day haven't got either the time or the desire to figure out better ways of doing things.  They're to busy trying to survive to worry about improving their society.

Frank wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 2:07pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:45pm: Frank wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:33pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:28pm: freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:05pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:16pm: In the end it is likely to be that socialism failed slightly quicker than capitalism. Capitalism has needed socialsim to keep propping it up otherwise it would have died ages ago How? using public money to prop up private enterprise. :D :D :D So tax is socialism. No but public money bail outs and government backed guarantees in economic emergencies are. There is a long history of government propping up the banking sector and business interests to prevent it from failing in recessions and economic downturns such as the GFC etc. It only happens in 10 to 15 year cycles and is a natural part of the competitive market economy. Yes left by itself the free market model routinely fails and requires socialist type bail outs to continue to operate effectively. Governments acting in the national interest is not socialism. Plenty of enterprises are left to fail because their failure is not a threat to the national interest. The World Bank, IMF, European Central Bank lending to countries - including socialist ones - is not socialism.

;D ;D ;D ;D

Governments acting in the national interest is not CAPITALISM

Quote:

It's having the time and desire to seek answers and to make things easier for ourselves.

Is that why communist countries developed so much new technology?


Quote:

Where are these communists Franky-boi? Russia isn't, China isn't.  So where are they?

North Korea. The lights are still out there because of the evil west, not because of communism. Right John?

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 1:58pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:28pm: freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:05pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:16pm: In the end it is likely to be that socialism failed slightly quicker than capitalism. Capitalism has needed socialsim to keep propping it up otherwise it would have died ages ago How? using public money to prop up private enterprise. And you think capitalism would fail without this?

Absolutely

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 1:05pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:16pm: In the end it is likely to be that socialism failed slightly quicker than capitalism. Capitalism has needed socialsim to keep propping it up otherwise it would have died ages ago How?

I think Smith has just entered his Vonnegut's 'Cat's Cradle'  conceptualising.... in his eyes, in order to sustain itself and its impetus, the 'rich' West must perpetually find an enemy on whom to dispose of its excess production so as to ensure continued production.  The classic 'military-industrial complex' alluded to by Eisenhower when he left office...

It is no secret that during the wars of the 20th Century, US production was at its peak and many people were making a motza out of working in 'war industries', and that 'between wars' the economy slumped.  The thing is - comparing only those very high peaks created by a 'necessity' (you may argue the merits of involvement in Vietnam etc) with the lows of what should be 'normal' production and prosperity, is meaningless, since the world cannot remain in a perpetual state of major war or major peace.  Furthermore, blaming one 'side' for all of this, based on the perception of its 'greed', is absurd, given the very real actions of 'the other side' at all times.

We are seeing this reduced to the 'micro' level with all these dissident groups in specific societies carrying on about their 'oppression' and the 'oppressors' ...... DID your grandparents have things better than you?  Should they be vilified for spending a lifetime to own a home and raise a family of which you are part?  Is it their fault that the economic climate has been subordinated to the very real greed of a few with their hands on the reins, and who are intent on personal enrichment above all else?

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 2:34pm:

Quote: It's having the time and desire to seek answers and to make things easier for ourselves. Is that why communist countries developed so much new technology?

Overdose on stupid pills again did you?

John Smith wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 2:35pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:58pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:28pm: freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:05pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:16pm: In the end it is likely to be that socialism failed slightly quicker than capitalism. Capitalism has needed socialsim to keep propping it up otherwise it would have died ages ago How? using public money to prop up private enterprise. And you think capitalism would fail without this? Absolutely

Why would it fail?

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 2:35pm:

I think Smith has just entered his Vonnegut's 'Cat's Cradle'  conceptualising.... in his eyes, in order to sustain itself and its impetus, the 'rich' West must perpetually find an enemy on whom to dispose of its excess production so as to ensure continued production.

stay off the drugs. You have no idea what I think.

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 2:36pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 2:35pm: freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:58pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:28pm: freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:05pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:16pm: In the end it is likely to be that socialism failed slightly quicker than capitalism. Capitalism has needed socialsim to keep propping it up otherwise it would have died ages ago How? using public money to prop up private enterprise. And you think capitalism would fail without this? Absolutely Why would it fail?

Because it would be unsustainable longer term.

John Smith wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 2:38pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 2:36pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 2:35pm: freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:58pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:28pm: freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:05pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:16pm: In the end it is likely to be that socialism failed slightly quicker than capitalism. Capitalism has needed socialsim to keep propping it up otherwise it would have died ages ago How? using public money to prop up private enterprise. And you think capitalism would fail without this? Absolutely Why would it fail? Because it would be unsustainable longer term.

Duh. Thanks for giving us the definition. Can you explain why it would fail?

Also, where are you getting all this from?

John Smith wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 2:37pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 2:35pm: I think Smith has just entered his Vonnegut's 'Cat's Cradle'  conceptualising.... in his eyes, in order to sustain itself and its impetus, the 'rich' West must perpetually find an enemy on whom to dispose of its excess production so as to ensure continued production. stay off the drugs. You have no idea what I think.

You think?  You learn something new every day!!  You could try explaining your statement about capitalism and its survival dependent on the 'other side' - your lack of reading and such - in this case Cat's Cradle - is not my problem.  The joys of education are that you can see connections and comparisons with people's ways of thinking.... novelists can be the canaries in the coal mine.

But don't give me an ordinary funeral service - I'm a Bokononist!

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 11:54pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 11:46pm: These comments about China are likely mostly correct. China have been moving towards a market economy and away from traditional communism for at least 2 decades. The CCP moved China to the home of unregulated pyramid scams.

Wrong again.

China began "opening up" in the 80's, and allowed private businesses into the economy.

The results of this post-80's "socialism with Chinese characteristics" were spectacular - the fastest rise in living standards of any large population in history.

But in the last decade the downsides of a market economy - ie, serving the interests of greedy private players - have begun to raise their ugly heads....which the CCP is currently dealing with.

Quote:

The results of this post-80's "socialism with Chinese characteristics" were spectacular

Almost as good as capitalism, because it almost is capitalism.

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 3:07pm:

Quote: The results of this post-80's "socialism with Chinese characteristics" were spectacular Almost as good as capitalism, because it almost is capitalism.

Ah, back to your fraudulent debating mode, addressing one point out of context of the whole post, namely, the rise of Western style - capitalist - private-sector market scams in China, which the CCP is addressing.   

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 2:41pm:

You could try explaining your statement about capitalism and its survival dependent on the 'other side' - your lack of reading and such - in this case Cat's Cradle - is not my problem.

Actually, it is your problem. You're the idiot who tried to attribute whatever Cats Cradle says it to me. You should try restricting your comments to what I've actually said, and stop pretending that I'm saying something else.

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 2:40pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 2:38pm: freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 2:36pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 2:35pm: freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:58pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:28pm: freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 1:05pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 12:16pm: In the end it is likely to be that socialism failed slightly quicker than capitalism. Capitalism has needed socialsim to keep propping it up otherwise it would have died ages ago How? using public money to prop up private enterprise. And you think capitalism would fail without this? Absolutely Why would it fail? Because it would be unsustainable longer term. Duh. Thanks for giving us the definition. Can you explain why it would fail? Also, where are you getting all this from?

What definition were you waiting for? You mean you've been arguing about capitalism / communism and all this time you've no idea what they are? No wonder you are struggling

No John, I asked you to explain why it would fail. You failed to do so, as you always fail.

I also asked you where you are getting this idiotic nonsense from. Again, you failed.

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 3:38pm:

No John, I asked you to explain why it would fail. ..

And I told you why.

No John, you gave me another term for inevitable failure. Try not to be so impenetrably thick.

Where are you getting all this crap from?

Why do you think capitalism would fail without the government propping up private enterprise? Or does you socialist alliance pamphlet not give you any details?

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 3:43pm:

No John, you gave me another term for inevitable failure

No FD, I told you why it would fail. Try not to be so impregnably stupid all your life

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 3:43pm:

Why do you think capitalism would fail without the government propping up private enterprise? Or does you socialist alliance pamphlet not give you any details?

Er.. during the GFC , the capitalist purists told the government:  "hands off the economy".

Obviously they were comfortable enough to feel they could have survived another Great Depression.....

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 3:53pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 3:43pm: Why do you think capitalism would fail without the government propping up private enterprise? Or does you socialist alliance pamphlet not give you any details? Er.. during the GFC , the capitalist purists told the government:  "hands off the economy". Obviously they were comfortable enough to feel they could have survived another Great Depression.....

The CCP starved 50 million people to death by trying to feed them. How many Americans starved to death in the Great Depression?

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 3:55pm:

The CCP starved 50 million people to death by trying to feed them. How many Americans starved to death in the Great Depression?

To stop people starving the US relied on socialist policies. It certainly wasn't walmart giving away food vouchers.

Where are you getting all this crap from John?

Why do you think capitalism would fail without the government propping up private enterprise? Or does you socialist alliance pamphlet not give you any details?

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 4:36pm:

Where are you getting all this crap from John?

Why do you keep asking that? Is that really your substitute for debate?  Prove it wrong or stop pretending.

John Smith wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 4:38pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 4:36pm: Where are you getting all this crap from John? Why do you keep asking that? Is that really your substitute for debate?  Prove it wrong or stop pretending.

I want to know if you are an idiot or a liar.

Where are you getting all this crap from John?

John Smith wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 4:05pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 3:55pm: The CCP starved 50 million people to death by trying to feed them. How many Americans starved to death in the Great Depression? To stop people starving the US relied on socialist policies. It certainly wasn't walmart giving away food vouchers.

freediver won't address that point. He is indeed an ideological "privatisation" fraud..as he admitted in post #24 in that thread. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 4:49pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 4:05pm: freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 3:55pm: The CCP starved 50 million people to death by trying to feed them. How many Americans starved to death in the Great Depression? To stop people starving the US relied on socialist policies. It certainly wasn't walmart giving away food vouchers. freediver won't address that point. He is indeed an ideological "privatisation" fraud..as he admitted in post #24 in that thread.

They could do that because they were not murderous ideologues like the communists.

TGD, do you feel any sympathy for all the victims of communism?

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 4:40pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 4:38pm: freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 4:36pm: Where are you getting all this crap from John? Why do you keep asking that? Is that really your substitute for debate?  Prove it wrong or stop pretending. I want to know if you are an idiot or a liar. Where are you getting all this crap from John?

You should worry more that you are an idiot. Do you think food stamps and rations for the poor, govt. funding 'malnutrition hospitals', providing $40B of recovery and relief efforts are capitalist in nature? Do you EVEN KNOW what capitalism IS?

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 4:59pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 4:49pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 4:05pm: freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 3:55pm: The CCP starved 50 million people to death by trying to feed them. How many Americans starved to death in the Great Depression? To stop people starving the US relied on socialist policies. It certainly wasn't walmart giving away food vouchers. freediver won't address that point. He is indeed an ideological "privatisation" fraud..as he admitted in post #24 in that thread.  They could do that because they were not murderous ideologues like the communists.

Ah.. so now you need to define socialism and communism, as has been pointed out to you  previously.

eg, Marx sought collective well-being; the US government , recognizing the inadequacies of free market capitalism, has been forced to introduce food stamps....


Quote:

TGD, do you feel any sympathy for all the victims of communism?

Addressed above. I'm a Marxist......but your definitions are not mine, nor the present CCP's.  

John Smith wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 5:32pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 4:40pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 4:38pm: freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 4:36pm: Where are you getting all this crap from John? Why do you keep asking that? Is that really your substitute for debate?  Prove it wrong or stop pretending. I want to know if you are an idiot or a liar. Where are you getting all this crap from John? You should worry more that you are an idiot. Do you think food stamps and rations for the poor, govt. funding 'malnutrition hospitals', providing $40B of recovery and relief efforts are capitalist in nature? Do you EVEN KNOW what capitalism IS?

Where do you get all the stupid things you post about communism from John? Like the west being to blame for how terrible all the communist countries were, or capitalism failing without the government propping up private industry?

I want to know if you made it all up, or if you are parroting something you read. A liar on an idiot.

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 7:19pm:

Like the west being to blame for how terrible all the communist countries were, or capitalism failing without the government propping up private industry?

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 7:19pm:

Where do you get all the stupid things you post about communism from John?

Nothing I said is false FD. Otherwise you would have been arguing thos epoints instead of pretending you have a clue

The WEST DID impose sanctions on every communist state in order to make them fail

Capitalism ALWAYS requires socialism to prop it up when things turn to poo

Either argue those points of fkkk off with your demented stupidity

Quote:

Nothing I said is false FD.

Mindbogglingly stupid would be a better description. But that is not what I am asking.

Where did you get it all from?


Quote:

Either argue those points of fkkk off with your demented stupidity

The whole thread, and a few others, is devoted to your demented stupidity. Hence the question - where is it coming from? Are you a liar, or an idiot?

He's both (Liar/Mafia) (Idiot/Vatican).
His comebacks are about as intellectual as a Houso's.
Quick! Throw him a durrie and he might leave.

In the US the recovery from the great depression was President Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal.

This was a $41.7 Billion government social spend.

The same thing is basically true of every economic recovery since.

What happens if all the banks and major business is allowed to fail ? This would mean that there is nothing left to recover.

Game over, put your little grey car or boot back in the box.

Governments do not throw away billions or trillions of dollars that they will never get back if they do not have to.

Jasin wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 7:48pm:

He's both (Liar/Mafia) (Idiot/Vatican). His comebacks are about as intellectual as a Houso's. Quick! Throw him a durrie and he might leave.

Will you go for a nice can of whiskas ?

Dnarever wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 8:00pm:

Jasin wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 7:48pm: He's both (Liar/Mafia) (Idiot/Vatican). His comebacks are about as intellectual as a Houso's. Quick! Throw him a durrie and he might leave. Will you go for a nice can of whiskas ?

Sure! Don't forget to tap the can with a spoon.

Quote:

What happens if all the banks and major business is allowed to fail ?

Then the shareholders loose their investments. They would be very, very unhappy about it.

Why would they all fail?

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 5:37pm:

I'm a Marxist......but your definitions are not mine, nor the present CCP's.

I knew there was something deeply flawed in all your manic agit-prop psittacism. Now it's out in the open. 
No further question.

Grow up.

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 8:45pm:

Quote: What happens if all the banks and major business is allowed to fail ? Then the shareholders loose their investments. They would be very, very unhappy about it. Why would they all fail?

Because capitalism is dying

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 7:40pm:

Quote: Nothing I said is false FD. Mindbogglingly stupid would be a better description. But that is not what I am asking. Where did you get it all from? [quote]Either argue those points of fkkk off with your demented stupidity

The whole thread, and a few others, is devoted to your demented stupidity. Hence the question - where is it coming from? Are you a liar, or an idiot?[/quote]

HAHAHAA!!!

The right simply cannot debate

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 7:40pm:

Mindbogglingly stupid would be a better description

thats enough about you


freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 7:40pm:

The whole thread, and a few others, is devoted to your demented stupidity

no, the whole thread, at least you contribution to it, has been to deflect from those points.

Only a moronic simpleton would argue that communism failed without acknowledging some of the reasons for why it failed.  I guess you more than qualify in that department

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 8:36am:

freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 7:40pm: Quote: Nothing I said is false FD. Mindbogglingly stupid would be a better description. But that is not what I am asking. Where did you get it all from? [quote]Either argue those points of fkkk off with your demented stupidity The whole thread, and a few others, is devoted to your demented stupidity. Hence the question - where is it coming from? Are you a liar, or an idiot?

HAHAHAA!!!

The right simply cannot debate
[/quote]


he's a dead set moron who cannot see beyond his 'communism is bad' mantra.

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 8:45pm:

Then the shareholders loose their investments.

Really FD? Thats all that would happen?  ;D ;D ;D

pull your head out of your arse son

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 5:37pm:

I'm a Marxist......but your definitions are not mine, nor the present CCP's.

Like me. Are you a Groucho Marxist as well or a Harpo perhaps?

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 8:45pm:

Quote: What happens if all the banks and major business is allowed to fail ? Then the shareholders loose their investments. They would be very, very unhappy about it. Why would they all fail?

If there is no risk why are governments so quick to protect them ?

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 11:30am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 5:37pm: I'm a Marxist......but your definitions are not mine, nor the present CCP's.   Like me. Are you a Groucho Marxist as well or a Harpo perhaps?

Maybe it's identification with a Marx cyst. Marx was covered in them when he died.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 12:00pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14th, 2022 at 11:30am: thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 5:37pm: I'm a Marxist......but your definitions are not mine, nor the present CCP's.   Like me. Are you a Groucho Marxist as well or a Harpo perhaps? Maybe it's identification with a Marx cyst. Marx was covered in them when he died.

you get it's his ideas people admire, right?

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 12:31pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 14th, 2022 at 12:00pm: Dnarever wrote on Jun 14th, 2022 at 11:30am: thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 5:37pm: I'm a Marxist......but your definitions are not mine, nor the present CCP's.   Like me. Are you a Groucho Marxist as well or a Harpo perhaps? Maybe it's identification with a Marx cyst. Marx was covered in them when he died. you get it's his ideas people admire, right?

Crank up FTLW's sense of irony as well.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 12:35pm:

\ Crank up FTLW's sense of irony as well.

HAHAHAA!!! Such sore losers

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 12:00pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 14th, 2022 at 11:30am: thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 5:37pm: I'm a Marxist......but your definitions are not mine, nor the present CCP's.   Like me. Are you a Groucho Marxist as well or a Harpo perhaps? Maybe it's identification with a Marx cyst. Marx was covered in them when he died.

Zappo ?

Groucho on the second amendment & sleep wear:

One morning I shot an elephant in my pyjamas. How he got into my pyjamas I'll never know.

Groucho Marx