Interesting 18min video about who landed where and when, and who survived and who didn't

https://youtu.be/cr7oCIuscfw

Another fun fact about that period (and extended until the loss of the American colonies), was that it was a dumping ground from British convicts. Almost immediately after the loss of the colonies, the British set about looking for a new dumping ground.

They quickly found one, of course, in the new colony of New South Wales.

It should be no surprise that Australian underclass slang bears a striking resemblance to Appalachian and white trash underclasses' vernacular of the southern states of the US.

I had an ancestor at Jamestown Colony. Clearly, he survived.

The Dutch once loomed large, even after America became a republic. President Martin Van Buren's first language was Dutch, not English, and the Dutch ruled the upper classes of NYC well into the 19th century.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 15^th, 2022 at 8:26am:

Another fun fact about that period (and extended until the loss of the American colonies), was that it was a dumping ground from British convicts. Almost immediately after the loss of the colonies, the British set about looking for a new dumping ground. They quickly found one, of course, in the new colony of New South Wales. It should be no surprise that Australian underclass slang bears a striking resemblance to Appalachian and white trash underclasses' vernacular of the southern states of the US.

Georgia was that North American dumping ground.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 15^th, 2022 at 8:26am:

It should be no surprise that Australian underclass slang bears a striking resemblance to Appalachian and white trash underclasses' vernacular of the southern states of the US.

I did some searching, and I couldn't find anything illustrating this.  I can
understand the connection between the English settling in both the US
Eastern coast and New South Wales and transporting their idioms with them,
but I couldn't find any evidential examples of Appalachian/Australian slang.

Any links?

AiA wrote on Jul 15^th, 2022 at 8:44am:

I had an ancestor at Jamestown Colony. Clearly, he survived. The Dutch once loomed large, even after America became a republic. President Martin Van Buren's first language was Dutch, not English, and the Dutch ruled the upper classes of NYC well into the 19th century.

That explains the Vanderbilts and the Stuyvesants.

AusGeoff wrote on Jul 15^th, 2022 at 9:07am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 15th, 2022 at 8:26am: It should be no surprise that Australian underclass slang bears a striking resemblance to Appalachian and white trash underclasses' vernacular of the southern states of the US. I did some searching, and I couldn't find anything illustrating this.  I can understand the connection between the English settling in both the US Eastern coast and New South Wales and transporting their idioms with them, but I couldn't find any evidential examples of Appalachian/Australian slang. Any links?

It was something that Joe Bageant (an Appalachian-descent writer) commented on when interviewed during his Australian visit. He recognised the Australian broad accent with its slang as similar in its style to Appalachian vernacular within its Scots-Irish (Northern Irish) vernacular.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 15^th, 2022 at 9:20am:

AusGeoff wrote on Jul 15th, 2022 at 9:07am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 15th, 2022 at 8:26am: It should be no surprise that Australian underclass slang bears a striking resemblance to Appalachian and white trash underclasses' vernacular of the southern states of the US. I did some searching, and I couldn't find anything illustrating this.  I can understand the connection between the English settling in both the US Eastern coast and New South Wales and transporting their idioms with them, but I couldn't find any evidential examples of Appalachian/Australian slang. Any links? It was something that Joe Bageant (an Appalachian-descent writer) commented on when interviewed during his Australian visit. He recognised the Australian broad accent with its slang as similar in its style to Appalachian vernacular within its Scots-Irish (Northern Irish) vernacular.

There's a bit of reading about the Scot-Irish in this link ...

https://blueridgemountainstravelguide.com/appalachian-culture-and-history/

I was searching for settlers other than English and Europeans, and perhaps finding Irish and Scots, which would explain the similar accent to ours. They were there in numbers so I suppose their accent was always going to differ from other colonies up along the American east coast

The nickname "Hillbillies" was derived from "Billyboys" in the UK, they were supporters of William of Orange, the protestant King of Scotland, England, and Ireland, who was affectionately known as “King Billy” among the Scots.

The Cherokee owned slaves? That's a surprise ...

Elite whites and Cherokee people alike held Africans in enslavement in southern Appalachia

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 15^th, 2022 at 8:26am:

Another fun fact about that period (and extended until the loss of the American colonies), was that it was a dumping ground from British convicts. Almost immediately after the loss of the colonies, the British set about looking for a new dumping ground. They quickly found one, of course, in the new colony of New South Wales. It should be no surprise that Australian underclass slang bears a striking resemblance to Appalachian and white trash underclasses' vernacular of the southern states of the US.

A lot of which was valid English and just never evolved

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jul 15^th, 2022 at 11:21am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 15th, 2022 at 8:26am: Another fun fact about that period (and extended until the loss of the American colonies), was that it was a dumping ground from British convicts. Almost immediately after the loss of the colonies, the British set about looking for a new dumping ground. They quickly found one, of course, in the new colony of New South Wales. It should be no surprise that Australian underclass slang bears a striking resemblance to Appalachian and white trash underclasses' vernacular of the southern states of the US. A lot of which was valid English and just never evolved

No, it was largely  a consciously produced sublanguage created by the criminal underclasses so they could speak freely without their betters knowing what they were talking about.

Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 15^th, 2022 at 11:09am:

The Cherokee owned slaves? That's a surprise ... Elite whites and Cherokee people alike held Africans in enslavement in southern Appalachia

Yes. Not only did they own slaves but, in 1865 after the 13th amendment was ratified, those in the Indian territories (which were not subject to the US constitution) kept them until their territories were subsumed into the US.

Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 15^th, 2022 at 11:09am:

I was searching for settlers other than English and Europeans, and perhaps finding Irish and Scots, which would explain the similar accent to ours.

Yes, they are both slang-filled, derived from the vernacular of the British criminal and underclasses, and nasal in their pronunciation.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 15^th, 2022 at 9:20am:

AusGeoff wrote on Jul 15th, 2022 at 9:07am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 15th, 2022 at 8:26am: It should be no surprise that Australian underclass slang bears a striking resemblance to Appalachian and white trash underclasses' vernacular of the southern states of the US. I did some searching, and I couldn't find anything illustrating this.  I can understand the connection between the English settling in both the US Eastern coast and New South Wales and transporting their idioms with them, but I couldn't find any evidential examples of Appalachian/Australian slang. Any links? It was something that Joe Bageant (an Appalachian-descent writer) commented on when interviewed during his Australian visit. He recognised the Australian broad accent with its slang as similar in its style to Appalachian vernacular within its Scots-Irish (Northern Irish) vernacular.

Thanks mate.    :)

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jul 15^th, 2022 at 11:21am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 15th, 2022 at 8:26am: Another fun fact about that period (and extended until the loss of the American colonies), was that it was a dumping ground from British convicts. Almost immediately after the loss of the colonies, the British set about looking for a new dumping ground. They quickly found one, of course, in the new colony of New South Wales. It should be no surprise that Australian underclass slang bears a striking resemblance to Appalachian and white trash underclasses' vernacular of the southern states of the US. A lot of which was valid English and just never evolved

Future has a point: certain aspects of English continued to evolve in the UK but hit a deadend in North America

It appears the Americans are Royalists at heart, "Charles the first was assassinated"...  No, he was executed by the rightful Government of the day! ::) ::)

AiA wrote on Jul 16^th, 2022 at 9:45pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jul 15th, 2022 at 11:21am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 15th, 2022 at 8:26am: Another fun fact about that period (and extended until the loss of the American colonies), was that it was a dumping ground from British convicts. Almost immediately after the loss of the colonies, the British set about looking for a new dumping ground. They quickly found one, of course, in the new colony of New South Wales. It should be no surprise that Australian underclass slang bears a striking resemblance to Appalachian and white trash underclasses' vernacular of the southern states of the US. A lot of which was valid English and just never evolved Future has a point: certain aspects of English continued to evolve in the UK but hit a deadend in North America

Yes, Australian slang evolved largely as a criminal vernacular used by the British underclasses from the 18th and early 19th centuries as identified by James Hardy Vaux in 1812 and published as a dictionary in 1819.

The convicts sent to the American colonies - later the Australian colonies - both used a similar vernacular.

Appalachian people were primarily from Scottish underclasses who'd settled in Northern Irish Ulster (Scots-Irish) before they later migrated to America. Their spoken English was closer to old English than post-Shakespearean English. They had a fierce hatred of authority and settled in the most remote part of the American colonies - as far from the rulers of the colonies as they could get. The only interactions with outsiders originally were with underclasses from the colonies such as Georgia who'd likely drifted into Appalachia.

Joe Bageant recognised in Australian slang a strikingly similar pattern of word-play in broad Australian slang vernacular and those vernaculars he was familiar with from across Appalachia.

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 16^th, 2022 at 10:37pm:

It appears the Americans are Royalists at heart, "Charles the first was assassinated"...  No, he was executed by the rightful Government of the day! ::) ::)

There's truth to that.

Early construction of the US constitution had the president as an elected monarch (with 4 years terms) with the powers the founding fathers imagined the British monarchs wielded. The senate was their imagination of the British House of Lords (an appointed aristocracy with 6 years terms) with democracy of the people relegated to the House of Representatives - The British House of Commons (if it had to be, as few of the founding fathers liked the idea of democracy) - although only persons who owned land could vote - land ownership being proof of a stake in society.

While it's true that the American colonies were a dumping ground for British convicts decades before the colonies of Australia also became dumping grounds, Americans have not embraced this fact in the way Australians have.

It's estimated that up to 10% of American immigration from 1718 (under the Transportation Act) to the start of the American revolutionary war, (mainly to Virginia, Maryland and Georgia), were convicts but it was not welcomed by the colonists, with colonists euphemising convicts as 'servants'. This despite the fact that convicts were eagerly bought for cheap hard labour in the colonies.

Even Thomas Jefferson tried to deny the fact of their existence.

https://gizmodo.com/britain-sent-thousands-of-its-convicts-to-america-not-1707458418